#palestinian liberation is not a matter of if but when

[chaiaurchaandni]

let him cook

[thedreadvampy]

legitimately insane how to some people, "we should wipe out this ethnic group that we've violently constrained to a ghetto because they're just genetically more violent and dangerous" is a reasonable and justifiable statement but it's Nazi Rhetoric to say something like, "it's bad that Israeli civilians are being killed but acknowledging that as tragic includes acknowledging that the almost daily state-sanctioned murder of civilians by the Israeli government is also tragic and unacceptable"

btw guys speaking of Nazi shit - can we check in, alongside what's been done to Palestinians in the last 75 years, what's the Israeli government's take on the Azerbaijani government's newest round of ethnic cleansing of Armenians? oh are the Israeli government's actions maybe not determined by Jewish identity, but by a commitment to colonial supremacy which puts them on the same page as other violently genocidal states like Azerbaijan, the US, and the UK? god can you Even Imagine?

(framing speaking against Israeli war crimes as inherently antisemitic requires understanding the Israeli state as representing all Jewish people, when it doesn't even represent all Israelis.

framing Israeli war crimes as synonymous with Jewish identity is pretty fucked up if we're being honest. I don't think that controlling water and power and movement for a captive population and shooting children dead for throwing stones is an inherent value of Judaism, any more than I think the torture carried out at Guantanamo Bay is an inherent value of Christianity - in both cases they're atrocities carried out by a far right genocidal government using religious identity as a shield.

Calling statements like "Israel is committing genocide against the people it's displaced" inherently antisemitic is doing more to further the idea that all Jewish people are associated with Israel than saying "the Israeli government is doing war crimes," which is a statement of fact about a country that exists and does war crimes. Is criticism of Israel as a nation often used as cover for antisemitism? Absolutely. Does that mean the Israeli government isn't doing literal war crimes repeatedly, on record, while talking publicly about scrubbing an ethnic group off the map? Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh well in the last 48 hours they've definitely cut off water and power to almost 600,000 civilians and allegedly used white phosphorus against civilians so in an extremely factual and unambiguous way yeah man those are Literal War Crimes whoever does them.)

[bisexualamy]

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[prokyon]

[long post of israeli bullshit propaganda]

oh i wonder if this person cares about "the joos"?? maybe their racist bullshit is at least backed up by a veneer of caring about antisemitism or something-

the FIRST post you see on this zionist shithead's blog:

if you dont know what this is, it's fascist "the west is collapsing because women get rights" crap. it's very very stock standard for nazis. you got it all here, you got ableist r-slur, you got "darkmaga" pepe frog, you got "rome fell because women!!!" and "abortion is evil and an afront to god" and "controlling the reproductive resources of the West is a necessity" crap.

but oh yeah go ahead and tell me that zionist freaks are very Jew-friendly and not right wing fuckheads, and that we should bother engaging with empty handwringing over false claims about "the left are the REAL antisemites" anymore.

it's a fucking joke.

[stalkish-shellos]

I hate the esc fandom SO MUCH

[ltpolari]

doesn't surprise me considering this: louisshomesharry/732996598339108864

oh

[pal1cam]

Rafah has been ordered to evacuate…

if this isn’t convincing enough for you to push for a ceasefire right this second, as hard as you can, no matter at what cost and what the consequences will be, then you truly have no heart…

do you understand what it means to be in a position where you’ve been displaced time and time again, just to get to the only supposed safe area that you have been ordered to go to by a force that’s so much stronger than you as an unarmed civilian, just to be told that you can’t be there anymore ? and that is after you have lost everything, like your home, your memories, your friends, family members and loved ones, your job, and everything that you’ve worked so hard in order to achieve…

The more than 1 million civilians that are now displaced in Rafah have NOWHERE TO GO.

And if you’re thinking “Why don’t they just go across the border to Egypt ?” …

well first of all, these people are indigenous to Gaza and to Palestine and if you think it’s that easy to leave your homeland then you’re wrong, and especially at such a time where the occupation’s forces would be delighted to see all of these Gazans move to Egypt, that only makes the Gazans want to stay even more, even if that means they’d lose their life inside this homeland.

and second of all, Egypt doesn’t allow Gazans to cross the border that easily, first they’d need to provide the evacuation costs which could get up to 10,000 $ per person, and then they’d have to sign a shit ton of papers and get on a waiting list, which is a situation that they could be stuck in, and unfortunately lose their lives in Gaza due to bombing while their turn to evacuate is still so far away on that waiting list.

So protest, boycott, call for a ceasefire, donate, share news, call your reps, scream and shout for the liberation of the Palestinians and do anything in your ability to stop this atrocity… so that tomorrow when the future generations ask you about what you did to stop a live and ongoing genocide, you’d at least have one good thing to say.

Don’t look away when a genocide is happening.

[irhabiya]

i genuinely don't understand what dipshit liberal zionists think they're arguing when they try to obfuscate the definition of zionism. even if we ignore the fact that it has been very explicitly defined as a colonial project by the earliest of zionist ideologues, we are seeing the real life material oppression of palestinians, the violent conditions they've been suffering under for decades. what other stupid ass definition where magically zionism is actually all peace and rainbows matters when palestinians have not once stopped suffering under the zionist entity

[euniexenoblade]

When ever other USAmericans on here talk about the atrocities of the USA and it's politicians it always gets so utterly frustrating how self centered a lot of the conversation is and if you try to talk about how the USA has fucked with a lot of the rest of the world you're usually shut down and your rant stolen to once again further a self centered dialogue.

And, I don't mean republicans or alt righters or whatever, i mean liberals, anarchists, communists, the American flavor of these groups just come off so ignorant about the rest of the world sometime that it kind of feels embarrassing to associate with any of them (well, it's always embarrassing to associate with a liberal, fuck em).

Like, the easiest example is talking about how Biden supported the genocide in Palestine ruthlessly. Biden very specifically has always been more vicious about the Palestinians than the other genocide approving politicians. But, you bring that up and you're immediately told "UH OK BUT TRUMP WILL DO IT TOO AND AT LEAST BIDEN DOESN'T WANT ME DEAD" and it's like, why is this suddenly about you? Does your life matter more than the Palestinians? How does this matter to the people talking who don't live in the USA?

And that's how a lot of these conversations go. Whenever people from Latin America or Asia or anywhere really speak up about how the USA has committed horrific crimes and how their politicians took specific moves to ruin the lives of people around the world and ruin the earth around the world, they get told to shut up and go vote blue. In an election they can't vote in. UH KAMALA ISN'T PERFECT BUT SHE WON'T KILL THE GAYS what does that do to help the Brazilian speaking out, or the Korean talking about the USA terrorizing their country, or the Palestinians facing pure horror?

It's not just tumblr or the internet either, getting involved with protesting or various political shit, the anarchists and communists I wind up around have endless demands and ideas about the future within the United States, but there's never an acknowledgement about the horror around the world. Maybe you get people supporting Palestine (and in my opinion, that's bare minimum for these groups, any lefty group not supporting Palestine is liberal horseshit) but outside of that they either don't know or don't care about the extended violence the states have spread around the world.

There's just an extreme loathing a lot of people here have for people out of these borders. Call it racism, call it xenophobia, Americans time and time again fucking hate it when the people of the world talk about how the USA is evil. They think these tragedies of being things of the past and hate it when you point out that 1) tragedies of the past have ramifications now and 2) the USA is still doing these things around the world.

But hey, I guess the Chinese blogger should just vote for Kamala, right? I mean, she'll protect the gay trans you and not the gay trans everyone else, right?

[anshelsgendercrisis]

something that's fucked me up over the last three weeks is the constant barrage of non palestinian goyim saying "why should we have to condemn hamas???????? why do we have to focus on jews or israelis when palestinians are dying??????????" and i know ppl who have already decided i'm guilty by virtue of being a jew won't give a shit, but i'm hoping people who still have a bit of humanity left in them will.

i've gotten so many anons chiding me and demanding to know why they should give a shit about the people killed by hamas (not all of whom were jewish or even israeli), and the answer i keep wanting to give is that. honestly you don't fucking have to. quite honestly, i wouldn't have cared if no one talked about it. i would be hurt to see people didn't see the loss of (assumed to be jewish) life as a tragedy, but i would have much preferred silence to the utterly horrific things i have had to see over the past three weeks.

bc that's the thing. we as jews are so fucking jaded when it comes to gentile reactions to violence against us. we're used to you saying it doesn't matter or even that we deserved it. gentile apathy has so thoroughly broken us that we consider it a win when y'all don't actively celebrate instances of antisemitism. and you had the opportunity to disrupt that pattern, to either take a single moment to offer condolences for the loss of so many lives (not all of whom were jewish or even israeli) or just simply back off and give us space to grieve.

but instead, i witnessed people, who just over a month ago had been wishing their jewish followers a happy rosh hashanah, post or repost some of the most appalling displays of antisemitism i have seen since may of 2021. i have watched you post about the "zionist media" ("jews control the media"), tell jewish israelis to just use their dual citizenship to go back to their third beach house on long island ("all jews are rich"), that jews israelis are bloodthirsty monsters who get pleasure from killing children (modern day blood libel), that jews are the "new nazis" (holocaust inversion), that jews in the diaspora are responsible for the actions of the israeli government (dual loyalty), and that every single israeli should die (literally genocide???????????)

i witnessed people who call themselves antizionist gleefully become tools of political zionism, bolstering the claims that the diaspora is not safe for us and therefore we must support israel when the countries we currently live in turn on us like they have without fail for the last 2000 years. and when i point this out, instead of taking this to heart, people double down. they insist if i'm pointing this out it must mean i believe it.

you all had the opportunity to do nothing, to prioritize the safety and liberation of palestinians over your own hatred of jews, and yet you still chose antisemitism. and i will never forgive you for it.

[ahaura]

i saw someone point out the frequency with which liberals back social justice movements... how, for instance, when ferguson happened under obama it was not popular and there were many, many liberals who found the blm movement, in a sense, "in violation of [liberal] sensibilities" (when liberalism as a rule does not challenge the status quo, only maintains it and sees any call for revolution or real change as disruptive or 'bad for optics' and therefore not acceptable) but then when trump became president and he opposed blm a lot more liberals decided that the blm movement had merit because they viewed it from a team-sports perspective rather than a worldview based on morals and an understanding of the systems in place in the U.S. - that it was more comfortable for them to operate from a "trump bad" basis rather than "the american justice system and the police are inherently white supremacist, which are inherently, automatically, and always violent"

+ that, if trump was president while israel is carrying out its genocide, liberals would have NO problem denouncing israel and demanding for a ceasefire because they're comfortable operating from the 2-party system basis, NOT from a framework based on material conditions or factors or any acknowledgement or analysis of imperialism, colonialism, or capitalism. but because biden is a democrat, and democrats are supposed to be "the decent party" "the lesser evil" "more respectable" when, in functionality - in real practice, they don't want to disrupt the status quo. (internally, maintaining systems of white supremacy and capitalism; externally, furthering U.S. imperialism by maintaining hegemony and continuing the practice of exploitation and extraction of labor+capital+resources from the global south)

which is why we're here, a month into a genocide, and liberals are so cowardly and gutless that, in the face of our democrat president allowing and funding the genocide of palestinians in order for the U.S. to maintain its military base in the middle east, liberals IMMEDIATELY jump to "well, you HAVE to vote for him still, because trump will be worse!" and go "well im powerless there's nothing i can do", immediately folding like a wet paper bag in the face of the american empire rearing its ugly head in the most blatant, naked way in years, instead of thinking "this is unacceptable, i should pressure my elected officials and do everything i can - be it combating propaganda, contacting my congresspeople or senators, protesting, or engaging in direct action - to ensure this stops as quickly as possible".

there are liberals STILL IN MY NOTIFICATIONS who go "well you'll be electing a fascist if you vote for trump" not realizing that YOU CAN'T SIMPLY VOTE FASCISM AWAY. (which is not to say you should vote for republicans; that's not what i'm saying. none of us have said it.) we're pretty much already there. it's 2003 all over again, with the patriot act and all. the american war machine is pumping out racist, orientalist, pro-colonial, pro-genocide propaganda on behalf of the ethno-state america and its allies have backed since the so-called state's inception. people are being doxxed, fired, harassed, and attacked for visibly supporting palestine/opposing israel. islamophobic hate crimes are on the rise; a 6 year old boy was murdered not one month ago, an arab doctor in texas was stabbed to death. antisemitism is on the rise as well, thanks to the conflation of antisemitism with anti-zionism (which nazis have and will attempt to co-op in order to 'justify' + then act on their antisemitism, racism, and genocidal worldviews). our government is silencing people, brutalizing protestors, and arming and funding an ethno-state committing genocide - everything that would have been called fascist if it was under trump. but because it's a *democrat* liberals place "vote blue no matter who" and "optics" over the extremely basic moral stance that "genocide is wrong and people have the right to self-determination, autonomy, and life". arabs and muslims are already so dehumanized in the west that liberals (whether they consider themselves liberals or not) consider it an inconvenience to talk about the ongoing genocide that is happening with the blessing of OUR government. in this they expose their selfishness, the shallowness of their morals, their chauvinism, and their racism/orientalism/islamophobia/et cetera.

for example, if you see israeli troops waving a gay pride flag and the israeli state touting its support of gay people while said iof soldiers are murdering men, women, and children en masse every single day and you somehow????? think that because gay people are the ones doing the killing or a state claims to support gay people is doing the killing is ok then 1) you have fallen for pinkwashing propaganda and 2) that you find the murder of palestinians, or any people, permissible by a colonial force that uses causes liberals may genuinely care about in order to disguise, whitewash, or "lessen" the severity of the injustices it does unto usually black and brown people outside of the U.S., then you are just as bloodthirsty and depraved as anyone you would personally assign those descriptors of.

once again, it goes back to resorting to a team-sport understanding of the world rather than approaching it from a material one.

[txttletale]

i have seen so much fucking handwringing about leftists or supporters of palestinian liberation justifying rape and it rings so fucking disingenuous when my timeline is 90% hardline pro-palestine marxists and i haven't seen anybody do that once -- nor, for that matter, have i seen any credible news outlet report that there's actually been 'mass rapes' for anyone to justify!

[spacelazarwolf]

this is the thing. if i talk to a zionist and tell them my stance, they tell me i’m a zionist. if i talk to an antizionist and tell them my stance, they tell me i’m an antizionist.

this is the exact reason i don’t identify myself as either. because in online discourse, they are essentially meaningless. if i’m talking to someone who identifies themself as a zionist, i don’t know if i’m talking to someone who just thinks jews should be able to live peacefully in the levant if they want to, or to someone who wants an authoritarian jewish theocracy at the cost of palestinian lives. if i’m talking to someone who identifies themselves as an antizionist, i don’t know if i’m talking to someone who staunchly opposes the israeli government and its occupation, or to someone who thinks every israeli citizen should die and hamas should establish an authoritarian islamic theocracy.

when i think about my stance, what my goal is, what i want to accomplish with my activism, my last priority is trying to decide what to call myself. i don’t give a fuck which word people on the internet decide matches up with my opinions. i care about what i can do in the diaspora to facilitate liberation. and to be clear, there really is not much i can do. i will not single handedly free palestine. but i’m hoping i can appeal to both zionists who care about the well-being of palestinians and oppose the atrocities committed by the israeli government, and to antizionists who care about the well-being of jews and want to find a solution that keeps us all safe.

and like. i know this is the arguing about labels website. but these labels are so charged that there’s constantly pressure from both “sides” to pick one. and i am simply not going to do that. bc i do not matter. my opinions do not matter. what matters is the safety and well-being of palestinians, so instead of arguing with tankies on the internet who will always demand i be more violent, i’m going to do what i do best. which is just be some guy on the internet who does their best to post some educational stuff and try to have nuanced discussions for people who actually want to have them.

[agp]

cant believe the level of holocaust revisionism im seeing today: 'israel, unlike nazi germany, warns people.' lets not elaborate on what is being warned and dwell for a second about what a warning is. it is a threat. it is an action that suggests the possibility of another, perhaps more violent action.

ive witnessed the glorification of the clarity of these threats increase over the years. but never have i seen it explicitly compared to the holocaust to feed the (also familiar) myth that the holocaust was a surprise to most people (the extent of 'most' varying).

the nazis were famous for their antisemitism long before the first american soldiers were to witness the camps. the genocidal process that ultimately lead to the death of six million jewish people was also a series of warnings in relation to those final actions. it was preventable precisely because it was recognized as a threat.

we should not praise hitler for his antisemitism, but even worse would be to critique him and his party on grounds that they were not clearly antisemitic enough. that they did not provide enough warnings, if any at all. that he could be praised if his genocidal ambitions were better communicated, because when orchestrating a genocide, making your ambitions known constitutes playing fair and is encouraged.

not only does this excuse genocidal policy in palestine today, it treats the holocaust as unforeseeable and therefore unpreventable.

the ongoing genocide of the palestinian people by the israeli state is recognizable and preventable. it is precisely the potential for recognition that develops the potential for preventative action.

it doesnt have to be this way. a better future is possible and we must insist on it. the liberation of palestine is not a lost cause, no matter how much zionism wants you to abandon it.

[apas-95]

To a certain extent I understand the point being made, but I think posts emphasising the supposedly ramshackle and improvised nature of Palestinian resistance feed into exactly the sentiment being criticised - of supporting liberation only when it's losing, only when it's the underdog.

What, precisely, does it matter if the Palestinian fighters have 'formal' training or not? What does it matter if their rockets are captured or purpose-built? If they were the ones fighting with advanced, modern equipment, and the IOF were the ones with improvised munitions, their cause would be equally as correct.

Some day soon it will come to pass that Palestinians will be in charge of their home again, and the zionist forces won't simply disappear - they'll be weak, largely overpowered, but they'll continue to fight, continue to be supported by their western allies, and *they* will be 'underdog' insurgents. Palestinians will be as justified in suppressing those would-be reinstaters of genocide as they are fighting the current IOF. They will be in power, and they will fight to maintain that power. At that moment, the fetishism of defeat would lead, inexorably, to the age-old trope - that they'd have become 'just as bad as the oppressors'.

Our analysis can't be based on aesthetics, can't be based on who appears the most ultra-revolutionary - it must be based on a systemic, factual view of who stands to gain. Don't settle for heuristics.

[germiyahu]

I also don't like the assertion that Jews are trying to conflate "criticism of Israel with antisemitism/the Israeli state with Jewishness as a whole" because you... YOU... did that first and you do it more easily than you breathe.

You interrogate every complaint of antisemitism, just to make sure it's not actually whining about someone being mean to Israel. You investigate the person's social media history to make sure they're not a Zionist. You turn around and act so enlightened and wise when you say "Right because Netanyahu wants Jewish people to think criticism of Israel is antisemitic, and he wants Jewish people to think that they have to have ties to Israel and that Israel is the only place they'll feel safe, that plays right into his hands," like you're doing this for Jewish people's benefit. Like you're not one of the people making Jews feel unsafe.

The fact of the matter is that Israel is intrinsically Jewish. By design yes. But also for the fact that it's just logically true? Most Israelis are Jewish. Most Diaspora Jews have friends and family in Israel. It's not a function of flags or national anthems. It's a function of people. Saying "Well conflating Israel with the idea of Jewishness is antisemitic," changes nothing about that. It's words with no value. It's empty air. Because what have you done to advocate for Diaspora Jewry and make them feel like they're not subordinate to Israel? What have you done to assure them that your disdain for a country that most of them have personal familial and cultural ties to is not motivated by bigotry? What have you done to include them and center their safety when advocating against Israel's policies?

Yes, the more people are antisemitic and weird about Israel to Diaspora Jews' faces, the more of them will gravitate closer to Israel. But that's not the point. The point is that if your criticisms of Israel were normal, we wouldn't have a problem. 99% of Diaspora Jews would join you. But you tell them they're not allowed to defend Israel in any context and they're not allowed to defend themselves when your "criticism" of Israel harms them. You don't want to admit that these can overlap. You just want them to silently add a rubber stamp of approval of whatever you say or they can leave.

It's clear you don't see Jews as a marginalized group. This is not how Leftists treat marginalized groups. This is how they treat the oppressor group, the dominant group. Diaspora Jews are at best an ally to Palestinian liberation. Because you don't see them as different from Israelis, you see them as the group that benefits from the oppression of Palestinians, not as a group that has nothing to do with Palestine and is historically and contemporarily marginalized by Western society, the society you live in.

And yet for all you conflate Diaspora and Israeli Jews you clearly want to keep Israel and the Diaspora divided, isolated from each other. They can't show solidarity with one another because that's (((ZIONIST COLLUSION))) and confirmation of a media controlled conspiracy or something. You want Diaspora Jews under your thumb and you want Israeli Jews dead. You're not as subtle as you think you are.