#people talk for years about bastardy

[lovl3igh]

i will never buy your "ofc alicent lost her sht and wanted luke's eye, after what happened to her son?? and viserys did nothing to punish luke and he should have yada yada yada" remind me, when did alicent punished aegon for rping? i guess y'all support "justice" and punishing no matter for nepotism only if it fits you and rather see taking an eye from 8yo than grown ass adult taking consequences of his barbaric actions cause i have never seen one person from tg who demanded aegon to be sent to the wall but you love yapping about how he deserved throne more than rhaenyra

when was criston punished for mudering joffrey, hitting laenor, killing lord beesburry? when was alicent punished for slicing rhaenyra's arm? when was aemond punished for injuring velaryon boys and dragon twins? when was otto punished for openly speaking about treason to alicent for years? when was larys punished for mudering harwin and lyonel?

alicent protects those who serve her cause, who help to install her son on the throne bc that what she believes is her duty. she sees rhaenyra's sons as less important bc they're rumoured bastards and therefore them being involved in the fight and getting hurt doesn't matter that much, unlike aemond's losing an eye, it's not just bc how big injury is, otherwise you have to think about broken nose, head injuries, words of treason who can cost velaryon boys their lives, the actual attempts of killing luke and jace by aemond. she says herself when she snaps... it was not about aemond's eye, it's about duty and sacrifice that rhaenyra (from alicent's perspective) didn't experienced. it was not an eye for an eye, it was sacrifice for sacrifice. alicent's lost her sht bc rhaenyra's actions and her family's were once again ignored and she missed that her own sons actions were also not punished, that her wrong doings are ignored, she apologizes to viserys later... bc she believes that her behaviour on driftmark go against her duties, not bc she wanted to seek her "justice"

and the "he's your son viserys, your blood" sensless, and luke is what? or jace, rhaenyra, baela, rhaena? if she expectes luke to punished then aemond should be too. why would aemond be only one protected bc of being viserys' kin? he asked her, what she wants to do about it, the eye can't be restored. anyone who says "well luke should have been punished somehow, grounded or sth", i saw propositions that lucerys should have been sent to the wall (c'mon). she says she wants his eye. eye from 8 YEARS OLD BOY. she got her chance and that's what she demanded, expecting what? "yes alicent, that's a great idea"?? please

"rhaenyra wanted aemond to be tortured" WHEN?? she said sharply questioned, if that meant torture, there would be reactions, wouldn't be? you see people whispers when alicent demands eye of luke but there is silence now. even alicent says "for an insult my son lost an eye". she didn't said anything like "you want to torture my son bc of an insult?". your accusations against rhaenyra comes from your asses

[nyrasproblm]

Two Princesses - Chapter Five: Actions.

Word Count: 1,9K

Warning: swearing, arranged marriage, mention of death.

130 A.C

King's Landing

The plan was to leave King's Landing the next day, but with the King's request, Ariella needed to talk to Rhaenyra early in the morning, before they left.

When morning came, she woke up a little early and got ready with the help of her maid, then hurriedly walked to Rhaenyra's chambers. When she was allowed to enter, she saw one of her sister's maids with an expression of anguish on her face.

She understood what was happening when Rhaenyra dismissed the maids in a tearful voice. She approached her sister at the window and could see the tears streaming silently down her ethereal face.

Before she could say anything, Rhaenyra held her hand tightly and breathed in heavily.

"I love my children more than anything, I can't bear to see them being victims of accusations like the ones that happened yesterday." she began, frowning in sadness. "My children are my heirs, I have fulfilled my duties, I have produced heirs to the throne..."

"I know, Rhaenyra." Ariella squeezed her hand a little.

"Laenor and I tried..."

"I know, I know all this." she saw her sister turn to face her.

"No matter what I do, it's never enough for these people." Rhaenyra sighed.

"It's enough for our father, you know that. He loves your boys, he recognizes Jacaerys as your heir." she tried to calm her older sister.

Rhaenyra was silent and the tears gradually stopped flowing, she wiped them away gracefully and completely turned her body towards her younger sister.

"Are your belongings ready yet? We're leaving in a few hours."

Ariella swallowed and let go of her hand, walking towards the fireplace. Rhaenyra frowned at her sister's sudden actions.

"Rhaenyra, I cannot leave King's Landing."

,

"What? What are you talking about?"

"I need to discuss a delicate matter with you now. And you need to stay calm and support me, like I have supported you all these years." Ariella took a deep breath.

"I'm getting scared, I admit. What is this about?" Rhaenyra remained by the window as she stared at her sister.

"I'm going to marry Aemond, apparently. Our father desires this and I cannot oppose it.”

She let out her breath and started looking at the fireplace, afraid of Rhaenyra's response. A few minutes passed before Rhaenyra responded.

"You won't do that."

"It is the king's wish, Rhaenyra. I can't oppose what he wants."

"This kid insults my kids every chance he gets. You know what he thinks about bastardy, he's already made that clear in front of everyone." Rhaenyra continued.

"You're making it sound like I'm the one who asked for his hand. I had no choice in this, you should know by now, you also got married against your will."

"They are different situations, you don't need to get married, you are not an heir."

Ariella rolled her eyes and looked at her sister.

"Thank you for reminding me of my position at court, Rhaenyra, I was already forgetting."

"Do you know what will happen? This wedding will make you stay in King's Landing, close to Alicent and the snake pit she turned this place into. Our father is giving her what she wants without even realizing it." Rhaenyra continued.

"I very much doubt that Alicent or the people at court would want to see Aemond married to a bastard."

"What is the purpose of this union, then? You can’t even give him children.”

Ariella felt the blood drain from her body and her stomach bubble. She stared at Rhaenyra in silence, without blinking. She swallowed hard as she saw Rhaenyra's expression change.

"I was stressed by this conversation, I didn't mean to-"

"I will remain in King's Landing. Have a safe trip back.”

She turned and left her sister's chambers.

-----------------------------

Ariella saw when Rhaenyra's family carriage and dragons left, she felt her heart sink and sighed.

The day passed quickly and dinner time approached. She was going to have dinner in her room but was informed that the King required the presence of the entire family at the table. Sighing she got ready and walked unwillingly to the dining room.

When she entered, she saw that everyone was already there. The queen and king were sitting in the center of the table, Otto sitting on Alicent's right, his half-brothers sitting facing them. There were empty chairs in several places at the table, she bowed to the king and walked to the chair next to Helaena, but her father stopped her.

"No, darling, sit here." he nodded to the empty chair to his left.

She saw Alicent's expression darken a little, but then return to normal. She walked over and gave her father a peck on the cheek before sitting down.

Viserys got up from his chair with Alicent's help and picked up the wine glass, followed by the others.

"A part of our family has returned to our ancestral home, but I am still happy to be able to reunite with everyone again. Tonight, I have an announcement that gladdens my heart." he paused to breathe loudly. "Two of my children are married to each other, as is the tradition of our house, and once again that tradition will come true, once again my children are getting married. I raise my glass to the future union of Aemond and Ariella, my dear children."

She saw everyone at the table have different reactions at the same time. Alicent's face showed discontent, but she soon smiled tenderly, Otto remained silent and looked a little surprised at the king, Helaena clapped her hands and Aegon raised his eyebrows, laughing a little. She turned her face to look at Aemond and he looked genuinely surprised, but not unpleasantly surprised.

"Details about this union will be discussed behind closed doors, and with discretion. My word is the last and must not be challenged." the king spoke again, this time in a serious voice.

The rest of the dinner was silent and soon ended. Ariella returned to her chambers but was informed that the queen requested her presence. She rolled her eyes at that, if Alicent wanted to talk to her, why didn't she talk during dinner? Now she would have to walk to the other side of the Keep.

The servant informed her that the queen was waiting for her in the library, she raised her eyebrow but thanked the young girl who soon left.

Upon entering the library, she was surprised to see Aemond present in the room, who smiled when she saw her approaching.

"Your Grace." she bowed a little.

Alicent approached her and hugged her tightly, with a smile on her face.

"My dear, who would have thought. My friend and stepdaughter will become my son's wife."

Ariella forced a smile and looked away.

"It is truly a surprise, your grace."

"You're the right choice, I'm sure. Someone honorable and intelligent, yes, yes, it's perfect." she continued smiling as she caressed Ariella's arms. "I think your father has already spoken to you about the issue of heirs, right?"

"Indeed, your majesty."

Alicent sighed in relief.

"Great, I'll let you and Aemond talk, the future bride and groom should get to know each other." she said goodbye and left, slamming the door behind her.

Aemond was sitting in one of the golden lounge chairs near a large fireplace. Ariella sat opposite him, on the other lounge chair, which was separated by a small coffee table.

She started to look at Aemond, waiting for him to say something.

"So you already knew." he began.

"In fact, I was informed last night."

"A privilege I didn't have." he continued.

She looked down at her hands and began to play with the fabric of her dress skirt.

"Are you pleased that they chose me to be your husband?" Aemond began again.

"Are you? Pleased that I was chosen to be your wife?"

"I asked the question first." he snapped.

"I'm not unhappy, if that's what you want to know."

"I'm satisfied. Very satisfied." he said, a tiny smile forming. "I didn't want to get married, but I'm happy that will be with you."

"You know about my condition, right? I can't give you children." she glared at him.

"Yes, I'm aware of that."

"And then?"

"I don't need heirs, they won't have anything to inherit anyway."

Ariella threw her head back and laughed, covering her mouth.

"What? Isn't that true?" Aemond said with humor in his voice.

"I assume so, my prince."

-------------------------

Dragonstone

Rhaenyra's family dinner was ruined the moment she told them about Ariella's upcoming marriage. She saw her sons stiffen and her stepdaughters look at each other in surprise. Everyone seemed calm, despite being surprised and disgusted by the news, except Daemon. Rhaenyra ordered everyone out of the banquet hall as he threw away his own cup of wine. Everyone obeyed, except Jacaerys and Lucerys.

"Viserys must not be thinking well! Marry his own daughter to that... that filthy one-eyed man." Daemon shouted.

Like ducklings following their mother, Jacaerys and Lucerys nodded, agreeing with their stepfather's speech.

"The wedding is already certain to happen, we can't do anything." Rhaenyra sighed.

Daemon threw a chair away and ran his hands through his hair nervously.

"My niece will not marry someone so dishonorable. Aemond stole Vhagar from Rhaena, I never forgot that." he continued talking.

"He was going to kill me! If Luke hadn't stopped him, Aemond would have killed me with a stone that night." Jacaerys chimed in.

"We all have complaints about Aemond, but that won't change what happens. They're getting married." Rhaenyra stood up from her chair and began twirling the rings on her fingers.

"Why didn't you inform us about this wedding while we were still in King's Landing? I would have remained there or I would have brought Ariella with me, even if it was by force." Daemon said, looking at her.

"That would be reckless, it would only make her angry with you and you would worsen your reputation, my love." she tried to calm him down.

"This is unfair, mother." Lucerys whimpered.

She smiled tenderly at him, she knew how much her boys loved their aunt and knowing that she would marry someone who caused them so much harm hurt them.

"Go to bed, both of you, we're all tired from the trip." she said and this time they obeyed, leaving the room with their heads down.

She sighed when she saw Daemon near the fireplace, staring at Dark Sister, his sword, which was hanging above the fireplace.

"I could kill him." he began.

"Daemon..."

"We cannot allow this to happen." he continued.

"I already said, it's going to happen and that's it."

"Aemond has an aversion to bastards, you see the things he accuses your children of, he can do whatever he wants with her. He will be her husband and no one will be able to dispute anything he does to her." he sighed tiredly.

"My father will protect her, Aemond wouldn't have the courage-"

"A boy capable of killing for a dragon is capable of anything, Rhaenyra. When Ariella arrived in King's Landing I was in exile, I didn't live with her fully until you and I were married. But years have passed with her here in Dragonstone, I have taught her almost everything I know, everything Viserys did not. I raised her and she became a big sister to Rhaena." He looked away, his face contorted into a sad expression. "She physically resembles my daughters. I couldn't see Baela and Rhaena married to someone dishonored like that."

Rhaenyra approached him and ran her hands over his face.

"Everything is going to be okay, I promise you." she said and he buried his face in her neck.

[captaincouture]

Ok Captive Prince fandom I’ve got some food for thought for ya.

Why did the regent take so long to start offing members of the royal family so he could be king?

We don’t know his actual age but we know he’s at least younger than Aleron and if I remember Damen’s description correctly, he is starting to grey.

We assume he’s wanted more power for at least most, if not all his life. So unless there was a trigger during Laurent’s youth that made him start actively planning his family’s demise, why wait so long?

There would have been a time before both Auguste and Laurent were born where only Aleron and Hennike would’ve been in his way, so why not poison Hennike earlier and orchestrate an assassination for Aleron?

It seems like Vere and Akielos were on somewhat stable terms before the alliance with Kempt fell apart, or at least both had enough incentives to not outright attack each other. So it makes me think that maybe the regent was not as much of a prominent or trusted figure in Veretian politics while Aleron was alive. Did Aleron know how terrible of a person he was and keep him at bay? Did the whole court know? Did Auguste? Is that part of the reason he was so protective of Laurent, because he knew about a very real danger very close to them?

So maybe the Regent needed the time between Aleron and Auguste’s deaths and Laurent’s coronation to solidify his position in the court as an influential leader because he didn’t have that power before. He had to wait until there was a “buffer time” to make his move because there was no smooth transition of power from Aleron or even Auguste’s court to it becoming his. And with Laurent too young to rule and too traumatized and not well respected by the court to be of any influence, he had to change the ways of the court to gain power.

Laurent and other characters mention multiple times that the regents court was very different from Alerons. I think because the regent is such a narcissist and unable to change, he had to change the ways and the culture of the court in order for them to accept him.

Even throughout the first book we see him fighting Laurent for supporters, though it’s widely agreed that Laurent is losing miserably, it’s still a battle the regent has to fight. We also know that most people who are loyal or sympathetic to Laurent are that way because of Auguste, or because they believe in passing the crown to the “rightful king”. It’s been 6 years since Aleron and Auguste’s death at this point, is that not enough to win the whole court over? Apparently not.

Especially with as cunning and convincing as we know the regent to be, it should have been easy for him to gain favor and power in court and let a tragic accident happen to Laurent and be done with it. He could’ve easily outmaneuvered Akielos and ruled two kingdoms (as was his end goal) later on after taking Vere.

As much as we all love to hate on the Veretian court and talk about how perverse and depraved they are, it seems like they were the reason the regent was put off of having power for so long. Laurent was certainly in no state to be opposing him as a freshly traumatized child. So even if they eventually turned a blind eye to sexual assault and underage abuse, they still held off the regent long enough for Laurent to get old enough to start fighting back, which ultimately made all the difference in giving him the time to go on his journey with Damen and get his kingdom back.

We see this loyalty to the “rightful heir” in Akielos too, with Akielons widely favoring Damen over Kastor. Despite bastardy being much less stigmatized in Akielos and Kastor being an accomplished and respected military leader, there are still many people who oppose Kastors rule even with Damen presumed dead.

So ya know, just a little shoutout to the courts and common people in Captive Prince, who made it that much harder for the wrong people to get their hands on power, so that the rightful heirs had the time and opportunity to fight for their thrones.

[sleeplessdreamer123]

Fanfic Idea! (Lucemond, modern AU, where Arrax is a kid, Lucerys is his babysitter, Vhagar is an old veteran, and Aemond is a geriatric nurse)

Lucerys was told that he and Arrax were suppose to and visit Vhagar, Arrax's great grand aunt, the last of her siblings, in a nursing home. Apparently, there were signs of her getting weaker (or at least, weaker than she already was) and they'd like Arrax to at least spend time with her before she inevitably goes. Arrax's mother, Syrax, and his stepfather, Caraxes, were supposed to go with him, but an emergency call had them rushing to get out the door. Still, it would be nice for Vhagar to see their younger child.

And Lucerys, intrigued to meet someone who was at least a hundred years old, agreed. When they saw her in the nursing room, Lucerys froze. Vhagar was, in fact, old, but he expected a one hundred year old woman to be laying on the bed with IV drops, barely able to get out of bed. Hee expected her to be on life support with the way Syrax described her. He didn't expect to open the door to her doing lunges with weights. Aside from that, he noticed she was heavily scarred, from her face to her hands to even her feet. He even noticed she was missing a two fingers on her left hand.

She glanced at the door, seemingly uninterested, until she looked down to Arrax barreling towards her. Lucerys noticed her eyes lighting up, carefully dropping the weights in her kneeling position, and opening her arms so Arrax could quickly run to her arms.

She spoke in High Valyrian, her voice thick, powerful for someone her age. Lucerys watched as Arrax spoke, mixing High Valyrian words mixed with common, happily babbling away as he showed her his new stuffed toy, a pearlescent dragon with red spikes.

After he deemed it ok, Lucerys walked towards them. Once Vhagar glanced at him, he immediately greeted her in High Valyrian, surprising her. Not many people know the old language, the Doom, the string of erupted volcanoes, completely wiped Old Valyria off the map long ago, only few survived to ever know the language. They taught their younger generation everything they knew, trying to keep their culture alive through them, even intermarrying to keep their bloodlines pure, to never allow it to be erased. Vhagar was most likely a young girl when it happened, a live witness to the events that unfold, and Lucerys, the History geek that he was, was very interested to talk to her.

Just by his name, she could already tell he was of Velaryon descent. She was old friends with Velaryons, they often came to visit her for a while. She asked who is mother was. He quickly answered that she was a Targaryen. Vhagar huffed, saying he didn't expect the line of white haired brats to produce a Dornish looking boy. It stung a bit, questions of bastardy had always been a sore spot for him, but he shook it off when he saw that he moved on from it, too busy petting Arrax's hair while he babbled on about his school and his new friends. Lucerys placed the basket of treats on her bedside table, an Old Valyrian treat that Vhagar noticed, her eyes softening.

After a few minutes or so, Arrax was sleeping on Vhagar's bed, too tired from the ride and running around earlier on. Lucerys took that as a chance to talk to Vhagar. She was quite an interesting woman, and her life was very intriguing.

She confirmed that she was there, when the volcanoes erupted. She was only four, and it was so long ago, her memories were a bit hazy, but she still told him what she could remember. It was a young woman named Daenys, a Targaryen, who warned everyone of what was to come. Many people didn't believe her, saying that the volcanoes wouldn't erupt, not in such a catastrophic way she was predicting. At that time, Vahagar's family was a loyal friend to the Targaryens, and when they told them the volcanoes will kill them all, they were the first to believe.

Vaghar remembers being on the ship, miles away from Valyria, but the ship still shook from the eruptions. Her home was burning, but at least she and a few others were alive.

She doesn't remember much about their move, but they stayed with the Targaryens, and she made friends with their children. She was close to Visenya, closer to her than any of the others. They were both headstrong, fierce and loyal, ready to protect their own.

They had to be, in order to face the discrimination they endured. They had to flee quickly, and they weren't able to get as much money as they should have, leaving the once proud families forced to work. The Andals were not welcoming in the least, their customs and religions so unlike what they're used to. Some of the Targaryens were forced to change religions to continue to be able to work, and a war was brewing between the people of Westeros and Dorne. There were already offers of money and glory for soldiers, and they cared not much for the glory.

In Old Valyria, it was normal for the girls to fight alongside the men, but it was different in Westeros. She, Visenya, Rhaenys and Meraxes had to prove they could fight just as well so they could earn the money promised.

It was at that war that she lost one of her fingers, she gestured to her index. The Dornish killed Rhaenys, and she and the others went ballistic. She was not careful enough, and, well, she was lucky it was just her finger and not her entire arm. She petted Lucerys' hair, deep in thought. Lucerys was a bit scared she would start having flashbacks and start choking him, but she said that she was wrong about her earlier statement. He looked less Dornish and more like Aegon's brother, Orys, who carried the name Baratheon. He appreciated that.

Lucerys soaked all the information in. She spoke of his ancestors, knowing them personally. She told them of their lives, their little secrets. Did he know that Maegor loved Aenys, perhaps? Oh, his jealous rage when Aenys married someone else was so much like the tantrums he had when he was younger.

That was how they spent their afternoon, telling stories, mostly her recounting her life to him, and he told stories of his own, how their family rose to the top once more, how Vhagar's family was still close lines to hers. Then he asked, a bit delicately, why he never met her, despite their family being friends for years.

She looked sad all of a sudden, the usual energy she had earlier was gone. She looked like she was thinking if she should say something, but the door opened, and Lucerys froze.

His uncle also froze, his eye staring at him as if he wasn't supposed to be there. Aemond then glanced at Vhagar and took a deep breath, ignoring Lucerys and focusing on Vhagar. Lucerys went quiet, looking anywhere else but at them, focusing on Arrax instead, who surprisingly was still asleep. Oh, he is not sleeping tonight.

Aemond took her bp, gave her her dinner, and her medicine, and told her that her visitation time will end soon, before leaving the room.

Vhagar snorted when she noticed Lucerys was still looking at the door, making Lucerys blush at being caught.

She told him not to worry about it, that Aemond was just acting grumpy because he usually talks with Vhagar at this certain time of the evening, asking questions of his own. Lucerys wanted to ask what they usually talked about, but kept silent instead. He told her that him being cold to Lucerys was less likely about that and more likely because he cut out his eye years ago, intriguing Vhagar. He told her how he didn't even remember what the argument was about, that all he remembered was Aemond picking up a huge rock and aiming it at Jace, his older brother, and he acted out in pure instinct. He didn't expect Vhagar to laugh.

"So you're the little brat that brat was talking about." She cackled, leaving Lucerys confused.

She patter him on the shoulder, and told him not to worry about Aemond. She also told him that it was getting a bit late, and that Arrax should be getting home now. She hinted not to secretly that he'd like them to visit again some time.

He thinks he will.

---------

I'm free!! The exams are over and I'm free!!!🥳🥳🥳

[corviids]

What would have happened in MD if the twins had been born with dark hair? I feel like so much of their marriage and trust was built on the fact that they had successful looking children in the eyes of Aemond and Alicent esp (bc she still had such a large influence on him during those early years), so would they never have progressed to the stage they’re at now if Aenys and Saera looked like Luke? I really wouldn’t put it past Alicent to try and convince Aemond they’re bastards and if Aemond did even entertain the idea even for a second in Luke’s vicinity, I truly believe it would have broken something in Luke while being at that fragile and lonely point in his life, ESP due to the cold and harsh way he was treated on their wedding night (which I lowkey think is the saddest moment for Luke in the entire fic)

hmmmm interesting premise. i think it’d def make life harder for luke solely based on the fact that that year at the red keep would be miserable if alicent was not receptive to the kids. they largely get left alone in the fic because they are so obviously aemond’s that alicent can pretend they are just his and ignore luke. but if they looked like luke, alicent would likely be distant with them and the rumors of bastardy that she’d poisoned court with just regarding the velaryon boys would extend to luke’s kids. if they looked like luke, there wouldn’t be too much of a basis to question their paternity but that wouldn’t stop people just being cruel.

i think aemond’s insecurities towards fatherhood would also be further exacerbated because he has people in his ear but i also don’t see him cold to the kids, just even more distant. he’s got people talking poorly about his own kids and saying things that he himself has said about luke and his siblings. lucemond’s marriage would just not improve in the same way. luke adores his kids and would be super on edge to protect them from court gossip while growing bitter towards aemond for not protecting them. aemond would be more insecure because his mother/brother/grandfather and there’s also some political issues that could arise from many sides by accusing his kids of being bastards (even if it’s baseless). basically, it’d be a “gets a lot worse before it gets better”

[lemonhemlock]

Hello,

I really love the posts from this blog. It’s a breath of fresh air compared to YouTube and Twitter which is dominated by Team Black stans.

Can we please talk about the ‘Rhaenyra is the best mother’ propaganda going around.

I’m not saying it’s untrue (though I’m personally skeptical) just that I only ever see it being used to denigrate Alicent as though their situations are in anyway the same. Worse still is when these people (Team Black stans obv.) bring in book ages into a discussion of the show canon arguing that Rhaenyra was only 17 when she had her first son and managed to be a good mother. I’m not arguing either woman, or any woman in general in Westeros, is in a good never mind better situation. Only that it’s easy to argue that Rhaenyra is mother of the year when she has like a half dozen scenes with her children that last all of 15 seconds. She only actually speaks to Jace and Luke in the show.

Alicent may not be perfect but let’s think more critically about the result of Rhaenyra’s supposedly Grade A parenting. Jace is violent and arrogant, Luke is petrified and timid. Neither can fight competently, never mind fairly. Jace cannot speak High Valyrian even though he has both Daemon and Rhaenyra around who were both fluent at the same age. And Rhaenyra send her underage son to the Baratheons when she Rhaenys right as a vastly superior envoy (that’s a different far more annoying topic) — All of this is true even with the buckets of narrative bias working on their favour. There’s a FF trope that Joffrey squired in the Vale, Luke regularly goes sailing with the Sea Snake, and Jace is such a wonderful diplomat. None of which is textually supported but those TB fic writers need desperately for Rhaenyra to look as though she wasn’t just sitting on her ass doing nothing during her stint on Dragonstone.

To me Rhaenyra while probably more affectionate than Alicent; she should nonetheless also be condemned because her selfishness (the reason TB say Alicent usurped the throne for Aegon) puts her children in active danger.

Case in point TB say Aemond needed to be punished because the accusation of bastardy is so dangerous but who might I ask put those children in that situation in the first place? Oh right Rhaenyra.

Additionally unlike Team Green, none of Rhaenyra’s family was truly in danger if she had just capitulated. She’s a woman and the children bastards of the female line. Alicent is there actively counselling Aegon against assassination and conflict. There may have even been a place for her on his small council or she could live out her best Lana de Rey vinyl life and a responsibility free rich lady on Dragonstone (bit rose tinned. I know but not completely absurd)

Just hoping you had some input on this idea that Rhaenyra is an UberMother or even that Alicent is supposedly the worst, most abusive, uncaring parent ever. (This is because she hits Aegon occasionally — but IDK that’s just how boys got disciplined in the past, and why is no one talking about the lack a father figure yet the reason Aegon is a lush is all on Alicent *head desk*)

Thanks

Hi there & thank you for your kind words about my blog. I think the difference in parenting style between the two can be explained due to structural factors, i.e. their social positions & respective privileges.

Rhaenyra is her father's favourite, a princess by blood and has an actual dragon. She's not just any regular Westerosi noble lady. She is THE it-girl. She can afford a laissez-faire approach to child-rearing. She is careless with the paternity of the children. She is oblivious to how she is perceived in court, because, for a very long time, it is not a subject of interest to her, as she just automatically assumes her status and dragon will render that aspect irrelevant ("their views don't matter"). It takes until her THIRD child for her to realise people are gossiping about her and that gossip can be dangerous the more her father is ailing. Because of her short-sightedness, she unintentionally puts her children's lives in danger because she insists on keeping them in the line of succession not just for the throne, but also attempts to steal another house's lands and titles. I have always thought that sending Luke to Driftmark to "rule" would just make him vulnerable to assassination attempts by his disgruntled Velaryon relatives.

Meanwhile, Alicent is terrified that her children's lives are in danger, her father's, her brother's etc. She's not going to be a lax parent, she can't afford that. She grows to be an anxious and dissatisfied adult. While Rhaenyra gets to explore her sexuality and have children she wants with someone she cares about & finds sexually appealing, Alicent is repeatedly impregnated against her will and maritally raped by an old, decaying man. She is always going to have a more complicated relationship with motherhood because of that.

Had Rhaenyra & Alicent been millennial mums living in the contemporary world, they probably would have both done a good job of it, with all the resources & information available today on child development & psychology and with enough wealth to afford appropriate childcare when needed. They also both would have benefitted from superior medical knowledge (so childbirth wouldn't have been a death gamble) and would probably not have been forced into teen motherhood.

[horizon-verizon]

Do you really think that the realm will support Jacaerys's claim eventually? After all the rumors about his bastardy are really strong and most TG stans claim that since Jace is a bastard he can't inherit anything, Jace needs to be legitimized first. I really like Jacaerys character and I'm new in this fandom, so this matter is so confuse to me.

Btw your post are amazing ❤️

Thanks, anon!

Answer to Question #1

1)

I have many, many posts about bastardry and the boys' illegitimacy vs legitimacy: HERE, HERE, HERE, HERE, HERE, & HERE. Basically, Jace is not really illegtimate bc illegtimacy must be "proven" and he was never proven to be. People have to argue/prove for it more than people having to argue whether or not one's hair is red or not. And

2)

Jace was actually respected outside of his family (A Son for a Son"):

3)

Several of those greens stans are not reading the damn text and refuse to see that Jacaerys was actually pretty admired by one of Rhaenyra's biggest supporters, Cregan Stark ("A Son for a Son"):

Also, Alicent had been, FOR YEARS, trying to get more people on her side and denounce or pressure either Viserys into removing Rhaenyra and her sons from the line of succession (both bk and show) or just get MOST of the lords at court and beyond to denounce Rhaenyra and her sons...and yet she had to resort to a usurpation, imprisoning courtiers and servants to withhold news of Viserys' death, pressured the council to crown Aegon after many lines of persuasion buttressed by Cole & Otto's input and wild accusations and assertions about Rhaenyra's sons, Daemon, and Rhaenyra not being actually the Queen...

I'd say that Alicent failed to convince anyone to really go against Rhaenyra by depending on the boys illegitimacy.

Answer to Question #2

Do you mean if Rhaenyra had ascended peacefully (no war at all, no usurpation) or had won the war with Jacaerys still alive when she did? Yes, he is her heir and the lords fought for her...they were a package deal. If you didn't want to have Jace as the next ruler, you would not fight for the person who names him as heir. Rhaenyra would have consolidated her reign and ensured her line's future better.

Now if we're talking about DURING THE WAR, Jace somehow survived but Rhaenyra did not/lost, I think there would have been a bit more difficulty without Cregan Stark, Jeyne Arryn, the Blackwoods, Vyprens, other lords who respected that their vows applying to Rhaenyra applied to her heir as well (bc again, they came as a package deal politically) and without as many dragons as the blacks had. Since most of the lords didn't swear to him but just to Rhaenyra, maybe some lords would use this as an excuse to defect or leave the war altogether because it stil costs them resources, some still will use this to justify how a male line goes before a woman's line, and/or they are just greedy AND cowardly and see this as they way to flagrantly ally themselves with the greens.

in the beginning. Bc the actual named heir/undoubtedly trueborn person is no longer there to enforce/support Jace's claim.

And once again, Cregan Stark made his Pact with Jace [2nd pictured quote above]...Cregan was a beast after the war and northerners are mad about their vow-taking, arguably more than "southern" folk. Cregan also liked Jacaerys very much from what's written about them--some fans theorize romantically, but whatever. He also had a higher emotional stake in it, which is an amplifying motive to the primary one about the Pact.

As for Jeyne Arryn, she was steadfastly loyal to Rhaenyra's cause because she was blood through Aemma, she would be helping to make sure her own position was securer from male relatives who already tried to oust her, and because Rhaenyra was a woman--like her. Women in a man's world an all that ("A Son for a Son"):

(Cregan also was interested bc he was having trouble with an uncle trying to oust him...succession things). Thus it could get easier for Jace to default back to him having been Rhaenyra's heir, he's never been "found out" to not be Laenor's , and he's a male dragonrider. again, this is if he loses most of Rhaenyra's supporters, bc it's still possible that he'd reatin the bigger and important ones.

Also, if Daemon somehow by some miracle managed to dispatch Aemond and come back...they'd likely fight with and for Jace anyway because Daemon is just loyal &--by reputation and action--brutal like that. Jace--less likely...key words--loses that many supporters of Rhaenyra's.

[bohemian-nights]

Ryan Condal: "I made Velaryon black because there were too much white people on this show"

Ryan Condal too: "not giving even a hint of Nettles, the only canonical POC woman, most important dragonseed and essential figure on the war."

At this point,I'm coming at the conclusion Condal only made Velaryon black to pointing Weak Boys's bastardy at the same time he wanted brownie points. What do you think?

*Black woman, but yes. Seriously if you guys talk about Black people just call us what we are. No need for the POC/WOC/MOC stuff. Our experiences aren't the same just because we are all “minorities.”

Plus it reminds me of the pre-civil rights era when they used to call us “Colored” so I have no idea why any self respecting Black person (at least here in America) wants to call themselves that.

Rant aside, Honestly, the Weak Boys in the books are for sure bastards. People denying so are either absolute idiots(the boys are described as having brown hair and pug noses which isn't coming from Houses Arryn, Targaryen, Bartheon, or Velaryon).

So it wouldn't have mattered what they had done and who they had cast as long as Laenor’s actor had a hideous blonde wig and Harwin's actor had dark hair.

What I do think is that yeah Ryan and Co. wanted cheap diversity points.

The Velaryons are both a prominent house and get a pretty raw end deal out of the Dance so it makes sense to use them since they are highly visible and have shit stories(the Velaryons end up broke and taken out of the play by the end of Dance).

They might have also been trying to cut Nettles and replace her with Rhaena and I don't mean in the way Dumbnyra stans try to say about Daemon and Nettles being biological/surrogate father and daughter cause there is no way he could want to be with a Black woman.*

*Remember Laena is white in the books.

I mean in the way that Team Green tries to make Dettles perverted by saying that Daemon groomed* Nettles and used her as a cheap lay cause there is no way he could love a Black woman.

*Dettles is problematic, but every relationship in Fire & Blood is problematic in some way so singling them out is suspect at best.

Having Rhaena take her place as his lover would thus make him the ultimate villain of the Dance cause what’s worse than grooming your 14-year-old daughter?

Now if this was the case I think this was Miguel's dumb idea. He's the same moron who allegedly thought that it would be a good idea to change Rhaenys name that way people wouldn't be confused since she, Rhaena, and Rhaenyra all have similar sounding names.

(Talk about having 0 faith in your audience. None of these women look alike and they are all different ages so if someone was confused they’d have to be straight up blind).

It's obvious that Ryan has his issues, but I don't even think he is dumb enough to do that, especially since he claims to listen to GRRM(and there is no way that George would go that’s a great idea man 🤪).

I naively hope that Nettles pops up in the trailer and they were just saving her until then, but I do not like that they appear to be sidling her when she's the most important dragonseed.

[historia-vitae-magistras]

The other asks got me thinking - what would people's impressions be of Alfred/Matt/Jack/Zee if their only information was how Arthur talks about them?

(Also, I feel super obnoxious asking but - did you get the ask I sent about the fic with Matt and Alfred in 1920? I just want to make sure Tumblr didn't eat it like it ate the one I sent about the Eirian's death fic.)

Not obnoxious at all!!! it means a lot you ask after them and I did! Your comments take me like 10-15 business days to process because they short circuit my silly brain with thanks and joy. This got really meandering and I apologize in advance.

In the years before Arthur knows what Alfred is going to be, and its almost only human fatherhood, everyone with ears knows how amazing Alfred is. The reckless abandonment of stoicism to a storm of delight, fascination and joy. He's probably owned that estate, his bribe from the Normans, for centuries and barely touched it until Alfred's born and suddenly the living standards he was fine with aren't good enough. That chunky giant cherub he carries around people don't need to hear anything to see how incredible Arthur finds the lad. And Alfred learns to talk and to read and to live, that doesn't change much. His boy is so bright, so tall, so headstrong, such a good boy, such a credit to his father. Even when he's locked up, being prepped for a burning, this man is thinking, talking, and celebrating about his boy. Later, in the aftermath of when Alfred shot his jaw off at Yorktown, Arthur drunkenly can list all Alfred's flaws, concoct a story about how the lad caught the cock-pox and died and then start babbling about how proud he is. That keeps up for the rest of history. Alfred probably even gets verbal recognition of pride. That respect, that recognition. Father and sun, shade and shadow, respectively. It's bizarre how well they work together now. Some onlookers might not be able to make out what Arthur feels. He says the best things with the most dismissive tone and the worst things in the most affectionate way.

Matt... probably kind of vague but mostly pleasant. The bricks don't usually report on the mortar. The farm hands when he's young raise their eyebrows at the wee frog who feeds the chickens and hides in the rafters and behind the furniture and does his best to be out of the way and forgotten. Humans mostly regarded him as a ward but the memory and scandal of Alfred before him overshadowed his early British existence. Later, especially in the 19th century, humans are very confused by him because Arthur repeatedly denies him inheritance rights, he never got Arthur's name. He might be the oddest of Arthur's children to on-lookers. In more modern times, Arthur is much more likely to mention him. Sweet boy. Thoughtful lad. A right conch, that one is.

Jack is all over the place, much like Alfred. Arthur is as equally as worried as he is frustrated with him a lot when he's little, and some when he's older. When he was a baby, everyone heard what a smiley little thing he was. Jack would tumble down little hills shrieking with laughter, tell the neighbor she smelled funny, and end up in trees like a spooked cat. The neighbours have been paid so much money because Jack was always liberating livestock or riding whatever horse he fancied. When he's older, everyone can see him and Zee racing their horses like absolute madmen all over the property. Odd little thing who will complain through church so much Arthur can't make him go, often on the shoulders of that older pointy one. In the late 18th century, bastardy was hardly a crime and Arthur didn't really have to really outline Jack's existence to humans so they just assumed he was the natural son from a long naval career. A bright, wild little thing, who grows into the broad and jolly lad always making losing bets at the horse races who is the only one of Arthur's children who can regularly drink the be-pickled old fart under the table. In the modern day, Jack is known as the loudest, laughing, happy lad with a very large collection of animals and a lot of biology credentials.

Zee is probably his most mentioned child. His blue stocking baby girl who, unbeknownst to the old fart, has killed him a handful of times because that cranky, sweet, clever, obedient veneer belies a will just as strong as his and a defiant streak that might be wider than Alfred's, just sneakier. Unlike his boys, who had the benefit of cocks, he's much more vocal about Zee and her talents and virtues. It's when she's born that he starts making up stories that make her and Jack his legitimate offspring and he's always talking about her, how bright she is, how clever because on some level he is aware she is at a significant disadvantage due to being a girl and easier to other. British titles break my fucking brain but he might have upgraded his own title at some point just to give her the option of a title or courtesy title which she only ever rarely used before WW2 if it at all. Jack gives her shit constantly for being the right honourable kiwibird. When she's little its all about how sweet, pretty bright, clever and grumpy she is. What a credit to her father! He'll never let her marry! And now is much more about her accomplishments, the things they enjoy, his pride in what she's allowed to be now through a lens of utter affectionate sentimentality.

[saintsir4n]

3

WARNINGS: LIGHT ANGST

___

1914

SMALL heath was home to many, the old, young, poor and greedy.

But to Eden, she was glad her closest friends were born there; Lorenzo Changretta and Dorris Martin.

Considering factories pushed more smoke into the air and the lungs of its people, finding a place of peace was challenging. But they found somewhere where they wouldn't be bothered. Near the tracks, where the trains passed at high speed, was the vast Moore, it was green despite the cold temperature and surprisingly silent. Of course, it was a place where people visited, but it was all about picking the right time of day.

That's why the three friends sat against a huge tree trunk, wrapped up in their coats and scarves overlooking the passing trains.

A poor man's peace, Lorenzo - also known as Enzo - loved to call their little hideout.

Ever since the raid a couple of days ago, the police shockingly didn't bother the streets as much as usual, for some reason which was unknown to the masses but not to a certain family. Although Isaiah was still up in arms over his favourite toy being snatched, Finn promised he would share his every other night. The two boys were closer than ever. Tommy made Eden a priority and continued to take her to his uncle's yard whenever they weren't at the Garrison or with his closest friends; Greta and Freddie. The calculating Shelby was angered and frustrated that he didn't prevent the raid from happening earlier and Eden could see he was overcompensating for that.

"Dotty why didn't you tell me what happened to your bed?" Eden suddenly asked, turning to the girl on her left.

"Enzo!?" Dorris snapped, leaning forward and shooting the biggest glare at the boy on the other side of Eden.

Enzo rolled his eyes, "What? The police, bastardi, fucked up your bed and everything. You've been sleepin' in your mum's bed, and you didn't want me to say shit? No way."

Eden kept looking at Dorris, "Why didn't you tell me? I went over yours a couple of days ago."

"I was embarrassed, y'know I never want to hassle you."

"Well tough," Eden playfully shoved her, "I'll get my dad to go over later."

Now, Dorris hated handouts or help of any kind, preferring to get on with things on her own, refusing to ask for anything at any time, unless it was a life or death situation or she was having troubles with a man.

"Edie..." she trailed off, grimacing as she turned back to the smokey view.

Eden shook her head, "Shut it, just accept the help. A broken bed, that explains why you're walking funny."

"You sure it ain't because of Angel?" Enzo asked, laughing at the shock on her face, Eden joined in.

"Shut up," Dorris groaned, "I don't wanna talk about your brother."

"There's a first. What did he do now?"

"I saw him talking to that whore," she spat, earning confused looks.

"Who?" Eden decided to ask, readjusting her hat.

"Lizzie Stark."

"Dotty, she ain't a whore. She's in a bad place... I think."

Eden sympathised with Lizzie Stark. Sure, they never spoke but Eden heard the whispers. The streets knew everything, and the eyes of small heath made sure to back up the stories. Lizzie was only a year or two older than Eden and left school early to help her mum, but the occasional odd jobs led her to take customers... clients of sorts.

Everyone had to make money somehow.

Enzo made a face, "And she only asked him to carry her bag. I don't know what you girls put into them — fuckin' broke my arm last time I carried yours."

"We all know carrying a bag is the first step to get him in her bed," Dorris was adamant her... lover? No, man, was led astray, despite having no proof whatsoever.

"Angel has only got eyes for you," Eden reassured, "only you."

"I suppose Luca told you that," Dorris said, with a wry smile, making her frown.

"I don't speak to Luca. Him and me are done. Finished."

Eden and Luca weren't even together for long, but she did feel a great deal for him, even believing that she was in love, but she was never sure. Luca never pressured her despite being four years older, their relationship started and ended during her eighteenth year on Earth. Why they broke up was because he wanted a wife and she didn't want to be one so young.

"Tell that to him," Enzo hissed when he received a pinch to the arm because of his chuckling.

"Angel told me that he wanted to talk to you," Dorris added, "to apologize about how shit went down."

"I bet that..." Enzo struggled not to speak ill about the Shelbys in front of Eden, but the pointed look on her told him to keep his mouth shut, "Shelby of yours ain't taking that too kindly."

Eden sighed, "Tommy knows all about me and Luca. And how it's in the past."

"The past doesn't always stay in the past for long," Dorris joked.

"Dotty don't you start, I already know Tommy has a jealous streak."

"I see it in his eyes, big blue beady fuckers. Hate them."

Enzo hastily agreed, "Yeah, Edie next time you see him, tell him to shut them while your at it."

The two started laughing at her, causing her face to settle in her hands.

Tommy did have the bluest eyes. The whole family did. But Tommy's were different, you could never really escape them.

Eden tossed her head back in annoyance, "Shut your traps, flies won't have a problem flyin' in with how wide yours are," they ceased their laughter, but couldn't stop their grins, "Now enough speaking about those brothers of yours, and Tommy. What about you? What did you want to tell us?"

Enzo grew silent at the question.

Eden and Dorris exchanged a confused look before turning back to him in curiosity.

He didn't speak, instead, he pulled out a few sandwiches and a flask full of tea that his mother provided him with. The girls were thankful because Mrs Changretta's sandwiches were world-class.

Audrey Changretta taught at the local school and was almost everyone's favourite teacher, even the Shelbys got along with her, which drove her sons up the wall, since they always fought and when her sons told their mum about it, she claimed they Arthur, Tommy and John were kind boys which only pissed them off more.

Eden cast Enzo a grateful smile, "Your mum made Sardolive sandwiches again."

Seeing the pout appearing on Dorris' face, he said, "And a tomato soup one for you Dotty, calm down, we all know how picky you are."

"I'm not apologising for havin' taste," Dorris said with a shrug, then took a bite of the well-made sandwich.

Enzo objected, "Can't have too much of it, your datin' my brother."

Eden snorted, almost choking on the tea she drank, gaining their attention.

"Oh, you can't talk, at least Angel ain't walking around with a razor in his cap," Dorris snapped, feeling the need to defend her choice in men.

Eden squinted, "No, Angel just loves to carry guns. – Wait we're getting off-topic, stop distracting us Enzo, but tell your mum thanks for the sandwiches —"

Trying to speak with her mouth full, Dorris' agreed, "—Yes, they're the best—"

"—But what did you want to tell us?" Eden pressed, patting Dorris' back when she started to choke.

Enzo checked over Dorris before throwing his hands up, "Christ, fine, remember when I told you I went to the market."

"There's many," the women deadpanned.

"You know the one, buon dio, by Little Italy."

Eden realised, "Near Digbeth?

"You spend enough time 'round there," Enzo said, shaking his head, "I was on an errand for Mum when I saw someone."

"Gotta be more clear than that," Dorris rolled her eyes, "he saw someone, in a market, did ya hear that Edie?"

"In the little Italy market," Eden feigned shock, all while Enzo wished he kept his mouth shut, "who would've thought."

"Remember Steven? Stevie Gallo from school?" he asked, ignoring their quips.

Furrowing her brows, Eden asked, "The one you always used to fight when you weren't fightin' John!"

Fighting off a smile, he nodded, "That one."

Dorris shrugged, "What about 'im?"

"Well, I saw him, saw him. Properly... all of him when he dragged me off behind one the market stalls he was working at."

And suddenly a light switched on in their heads.

"Oh... you saw 'im," Eden was the first to speak.

Dorris gasped, "All of 'im?"

Enzo nodded, "Sì." Then took a bite of his sandwich.

"And he saw... all of you?"

"Most of me, it's January, colder than ever y'know."

"Is that you're excuse? Look if you're small down there Enzo that's nothing to be ashamed of —"A scream escaped Eden when he tossed a rogue olive at her head, "what? Plenty of your lot like small tools don't they?"

"I'm not small! It's not small," he exclaimed, even sparing a glance at his trousers, while the girls giggled to themselves.

Eden leaned over to Dorris, "You hear that Dotty? It ain't small."

Dorris hummed, "Not small at all apparently."

Enzo sent glares their way, "I don't know why I tell you anything, dio santo. "

Recovering from her laughter, Eden asked, "Alright alright calm down, I have questions."

"When don't you," he received another pinch to the arm, "Go on then."

"Did you at least kiss?"

A blush crept onto his face, "...yeah, not for long, he was too busy talkin'."

"What, with his mouth full?" Dorris joked, with her mouth full of food.

"Oh fuck off," The girls waited for an answer, making him cave, "He preferred talkin' more than anythin'. He wanted to take me to his, he lives alone now y'know?"

Their eyes widened with intrigue, Dorris was taken aback, "He does?"

Eden excitedly nodded, "That's bostin'."

"A one-bedroom flat, everything was on top of everything. He said he took me there 'cause he didn't want Mrs Granberry peeping a thing."

They gagged at the mention of the woman.

That ruined Eden's thoughts completely, "She was there?"

"Nosy cow's everywhere, even at church last Sunday, tryna get me to dance with her, wasn't she dot?"

Dorris laughed at the memory, "Funniest thing."

"The cheek of that woman, always needin' to sing louder than the rest of us," Eden muttered, flinching at the memories.

Even after Eden stopped going to church, Dorris was still forced by her mum, similar to Enzo, since his family were Roman Catholics. Every inch of the Changretta house was decorated with some religious symbol, believing that the day Jesus returned to earth in his physical form they would be recognised as the most devout. Enzo thought it was a bunch of bullshit, since if he ever dared to admit he preferred the company of men, he would be crucified. Angel was a believer in his faith but not as much as his oldest brother Luca.

Enzo agreed, "I know. But after he took me back to his, he didn't want to do anything, not much 'part from talk and kiss sometimes..."

"And..." Eden motioned for him to go on.

"And what?" he didn't get what she was hinting at.

Dorris wondered, "Did you like it?"

"It was nice."

"Only nice?" she scrunched up her face, "When I give you information about my love life I give you details, everything, the whole nine yards."

"Too much considering it's my brother you're on about," he murmured just before taking a sip of the flask.

Eden put down the rest of her sandwich and said, "Come on Enzo, when I kiss Tommy, it feels right, slow, well whenever he ain't tryin' to get into my –."

"-- little garden of Eden?" he couldn't help but say, making Dorris fight off a smile. Both of them had to dodge the kicks she tried sending their way.

"Yeah yeah. And I hate saying it, but when we kiss, it makes me feel all funny inside."

"Sounds like you have wind."

Eden's face fell, "Come on! What does it feel when you kissed Stevie?"

Dorris asked, "He's a tall lad ain't he? Same height as you?"

"He is," Enzo nodded.

Enzo and his brothers were always the tallest around, it often intimidated everyone, despite them being friendly and their occasional outbursts, but what man didn't have them in this day and age?

"Then was he gentle?" Dorris worried that Enzo could get hurt with all his back-alley rendezvous with men.

They weren't safe in the slightest and it only took the wrong person to expose her friend or even beat him up.

"If he wasn't he's gonna hear it from me," Eden claimed.

Dorris nodded, "And me."

Enzo smiled at them, loving that they would stand up for him, but considering they were fairly small, he wouldn't let them ever get involved in his business.

He told them, "Girls he was nice. Just nice, but he wanted to get to know me, all we did at school was fight and he apologised for that."

"He did?" Dorris rose a brow.

Eden laughed, "No one apologises around here, must be true love."

Enzo didn't have a response to that which they took note of and shared a small smirk.

__

The trio laughed and sang down the road. Enzo had his best friends on either arm, leaving the watchers by to wonder how he did it. Two women and one man? Most believed that it was a sham, a facade that he was friends with two women they would classify as beautiful despite their darker skin, but they tried not to pay attention to all the talk, but it was pretty consuming.

Especially when Enzo turned his gaze to the man who stood in front of Eden's door.

Thomas Shelby.

Their smiles fell when they noticed the other.

Eden and Dorris' singing died down when they noticed Enzo's sudden change in mood.

"What–" Eden quickly followed his gaze, and Dorris soon followed.

When they ended up in front of each other, it was all a mess, a silent one, but a mess nonetheless.

Tommy didn't take his eyes off the embrace Enzo had Eden in.

Enzo was taller than Tommy, many were, but the look on Tommy's face was meaner.

"Shelby," Enzo spoke up first.

Tommy itched to put his cap to use but instead, he said, "Changretta. Martin." he sent Dorris a look, completely skipping over Eden which ruined her mood as she dropped Enzo's arm.

Dorris withheld a laugh, "Shelby."

Eden narrowed her eyes at him, "If you say my last name, Thomas..." Her warning fell on deaf ears.

"I was waitin', but I see you were busy today," he still hadn't glanced at her, his eyes stayed on Enzo which she took as disrespect.

"I told you that yesterday," she said, irritated by his attitude.

"You did."

Enzo decided to cock his head to the side and say, "Didn't realise spendin' time with friends was a problem."

Tommy's jaw clenched even more, "Did I say that?"

"You didn't have to."

The stare-down the men were having was becoming more and more uncomfortable.

"What's this? A staring contest," Eden snapped her fingers in their faces, only causing them to slightly glare at her and blink, "look at that, none of you won."

"I'll see you when I see you, Edie," Enzo made sure the kiss he pressed to Eden's cheek was loud enough for Tommy to hear, "Come on Dotty, let's get you home, wouldn't want to be prosecuted for spendin' time with another girl, would I?"

"Suppose not," Dorris couldn't suppress her giggling, "bye Edie," she waved at the girl then sent Tommy a stiff nod, that he didn't return since his impenetrable stare stayed on Enzo as he walked off with her.

"My god, you'd think you and him were having it off with each other by the way you stared at him, didn't even give me a kiss or anything," Eden muttered.

Tommy turned back to Eden, the woman he'd been waiting for about an hour. He'd knocked on her door a few times and no one came, meaning that her parents were working and she too was busy like she said. His brothers were out, no doubt causing havoc, Ada was off helping Polly with a task and he wanted to see his girl.

"Wow," she huffed out a humourless laugh, "nothing? Fine then, move aside so I can get into my house. Honestly, Thomas, the cold air is warmer than you."

"I was waitin' for you, wanted to take you out."

She feigned shock, "Oh you were? Too bad I'll be inside reading whilst you go off and glare at Enzo."

"Look -–"

"No," he was taken aback by her tone. Stepping forward, she jabbed a finger into his chest, "You don't get to act all entitled, the least you could've done was greeted me or kissed me, did you do any of that? No. hate my friends all you want, but respect them, respect me or get lost alright?"

"Alright," he played it cool, but internally he was panicking.

"Just alright?" she scoffed and went to move, "fuckin' joker if you think you can just stand here and not even compliment how beautiful I looked today..." he cracked a smile, "Oh now you wanna smile, when you were acting as if someone pissed in your cereal this morning, just go home Thomas.

"I'm sorry," he caught her hand before she could move around him, "I shouldn't have acted like a fool —"

"—Got that right—"

"—And I should've greeted you first because you're my priority. I said that didn't I? Besides saying you're beautiful is an understatement, possibly an insult," he stroked her cheek and lifted her chin, so she could look into his eyes, christ they were so fucking blue, she thought, "Look, see if I'm lyin', I can't be, you're more than beautiful. And if it's compliments you're after, you'll get 'em, you'll get more than that if you agree to let me take you out."

No one apologises around here, must be true love. She thought about her earlier words and sighed.

Still lost in her only mind, she stayed silent, resulting in him leaning down, trailing his lips down her ear, breathing against her neck and making her lose her train of thought.

"I'll give you something extra, so you can forgive me."

"And what's that?"

"You'll see...but then again, you can never keep your eyes from rolling back for too long can you darlin'? M'suppose it's my fault then ey?"

She gulped harshly, still struggling to find the right words, further amusing him.

The chuckle that escaped his lips, made her shiver.

"Is that a yes?" he alright knew her answer.

Eden found the courage to pull out of his hold and stare into his mirthful eyes to say...

"...when's the date?"

Tommy smirked.

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a/n:

someone tell edie to stand up. i can't because i wouldn't.

any thoughts on this chapter?

[dulcewrites]

What do you think of Alys? There are lots of rumours surrounding her, but I think we both know how men used to write about women who refused to play the victim in patriarchal society and actually achieved something. She was Queen of Harrenhall after all. But what is more disturbing to me is that some people say that she used Aemond for her own goal which was to climb on social ladder and give birth to royal child. I just can't help but think yep, she was supposed to be happy that she will spend her entire life as bastard serving her family which contained father who surely treated her poorly (since when bastards are treated well to begin with? Apart from Jon and Sand Snakes obviously) and his wife who surely wasn't happy about having to see the living proof of her husband's cheating and half brothers Harwin and Larys who most likely didn't care about her at all. Look how men who really work hard to better their position within Westeros society even though they weren't much influential from the beginning of their life, managed to climb really high due to their intelligence, wit and dedication - Varys and Littlefinger. And yet they are called masterminds, their morals are questionable but still their ability to achieve things because they were smart is impressive. They serve first and foremost their own interest, but when men does it, it's alright but when women they are condemned to hell. When a woman called Alys Rivers has ambitions, most likely doesn't want to spend the rest of her life as servant since she did it for like 30 years and has every right to have enough of it, aims for something better, doesn't play damsel in distress even for a second - she is evil, seductress, femme fatale who will help Aemond descent into darkness in order to gain something from it lol the level of misogyny is so high I just am shocked people still think like this where this mentality should be gone long ago

I think the conflicting way people speak about alys comes from 1) the extremely weird way she was written in the book (f&b in general is not good but that’s another discussion for another day) and 2) the very binary camps people put women, and through that, female characters into.

If she is a victim of her circumstances, she must be the right kind of the victim. If she “rises above” (which in of itself titers into misogyny bc why is it either she was ‘strong enough’ to pull herself up by her bootstraps or she was too ‘weak’ not to), it must be in a way the audience finds palatable and of their liking. People are extremely uncomfortable and frankly very nasty when women do not show responses to trauma in the way they like. Hence why people are fucking awful when it comes to Alicent.

If people want to see alys as some seductress that’s their prerogative. I think that is a very shallow and weird way to look at a woman who probably went through sexual trauma in her life. Same with people thinking Aemond is going to assault her. Once again, very odd to theorize that someone who in show canon was assaulted himself is a r*pist. I personally find the she got pregnant then sent him to his death on purpose argument not only weird but also.. lacking any sense. If she was trying to secure the bag, why on earth would she want to essentially kill the one person who could confirm they were together and the baby is his???Now I’m of the belief that Aemond was going to fight Daemon regardless but the notion alys put it in his head bc she knew he would die is frankly nonsensical to me.

I think alys is indicative of her time. It’s why I think her story, along with nettles and maybe even Sara if they include her, are important. The surface level way she gets talked about and sometimes erased in this fandom is a literal representative of how bastardy for women plays out. The fact that people want these three women wiped from the show is so wild to me. Another convo we will eventually have is how gross it is how this fandom treats the people that actually represent them. You are not a targaryen.. you are the smallfolk

Idk if this answered your question. I feel like I’ve answered this before in different ask and I always regurgitate the same stuff. I may not be making sense lol. I like Alys. I’m excited for alys. Here’s a shameless plug of how i truly see her

[unohanabbygirl]

Loved the new chapter! Jace is really pushing at the boundaries for Luke and I hope Joff is okay. I got to say that the first part with Luke and Owen was disgusting and also heartbreaking. Luke was just trying to find a flicker of happiness in his traumatic life, it’s understandable why he went down the path with Owen. Can’t wait to see how that little revelation plays out with Aemond.

Got a few questions here. How did everyone react to the histories of what Aemond said to Luke at Storm’s End? How aware are the family and Brienne of each other in reincarnation terms? Despite the shitty hand he was dealt with in his new life, how is Luke gonna feel that his old life ultimately led up to being a spark that ignited a war?

Thank you babes!

The Omen scene was pretty heavy for me to write out just as any scene that has to do with abuse/SA, so I’m glad it paid off as making readers uncomfortable during these scenes is always my goal. We’re supposed to feel slimy and icky during these moments. Our discomfort is only a sliver of what Luke’s been through, a true look into a world that certain forms of media either romanticize or undermine just how horrid these stories really are.

Omen and his bio mom are two of the biggest monsters Luke’s ever faced. In his mind their betrayal and abuse was worse than anything some random shitty foster parent or pedo looking to get off could ever put him through. It’s not even about the physical or mental aspect, but how Omen broke him emotionally. Got him to share secrets, hopes, and fears he’s always kept locked away as the things that were most precious to him, something that couldn’t be stolen only to use those secrets as leverage. Aemond will definitely need to physically been peeled off of Owen for taking these things he knows mean so much to Luke as only to throw them back in his face. We might even see that thousand year old blood lust make an appearance once time comes 👀

I love questions. Lets go!

. 1 - Hmm, there are three categories I split their reactions into; #1 those who actually think it’s embarrassing because he sounded like an elementary school boy with big crush who keeps pulling on a girls ponytail to get her attention. #2 those who wanted to beat him black and blue. #3 those who feel bad because its so obvious he just wanted to be seen and was suffering from a lot of inner demons.

Of course Aegon and Daemon fall into the first category seeing as these two have always known about Aemond’s fascination with Luke. Everyone else except Alicent and Helaena (who are in cat 3) fall into category two. Jace being one of few who’s actually made good on his desire to whoop Aemond’s ass.

Alicent and Helaena have always been both his biggest defenders and his the few who actually understand him. They see his goading as a way to be recognized as they remember how upset he was that Luke barely paid him any mind during the blacks return to the keep before dinner. To them, his cruel words were to be expected. Though they don’t agree with the weird bits about Rhaenyra being a whore because…yea. He has some odd quotes about his sister.

.2 - They aren’t aware of who one another truly are at all which is one of my favorite parts about this. Everyone is so caught up in their own stories that they never actually take the time to wonder if people in their day to day lives are reincarnated folk from different time periods regardless of how obvious it may be to us on the outside,

Now, do people entertain the idea? Definitely. I’d be lying if I said that Jace wouldn’t kill to meet Jon Snow and talk to him about how he overcame that feeling of needing to constantly prove himself in the face of his bastardy. But he doesn’t entertain the possibility because the idea that not only those from his time, but those who lived hundreds of years after his death came back as well is a bit too good to be true. Though if anyone was able to put two and two together it would probably be Egg.

.3 - Luke will definitely feel that he’s the reason for his families downfall. Not only because he’s lived these past 17 years continuously blaming himself for every bad card he’s been dealt, but that his old self-loathing and low self-esteem is making a bit of a comeback. These two personalities which are both filled with such a low self-image and feelings of unworthiness clashing together is a recipe for disaster.

[fkevin073]

So here is my Dark Alysanne x Dark Aemond idea.

The idea goes - War is stopped from breaking out but Rhaenyra and Alicent do die. No B&C happens. Jace gets through to Aegon who decides to exile himself and Jace assumes the throne.

There is talk of betrothing Jace to Cassandra Baratheon as the bastardy rumours are a bit lesser bcoz Jace has dark blonde hair just like Alysanne but not the Valyrian silver locks.

Alysanne really wants to be Queen and expected she would be one but to avoid The Greens from rising in rebellion again, the Baratheon support is prioritized. There's also talk of betrothing him to Baela to keep Daemon pacified/ distracted enough to not stir shit with wanting to kill The Greens.

Alysanne knows she can't really harm Baela without Daemon finding out but she does decide to harm Cassandra. Get rid of her discreetly eaten by Cannibal or burned or some other way.

No one but Elenda Caron and Baela know that its Alysanne. Elenda can sense that Alysanne's niceness is fake and she was behind this somehow. She can't prove it though. She convinces Borros Baratheon to not betroth Floris or Maris to Jace by deeming it an ill omen or something. Baela ends up witnessing this from afar but Alysanne doesn't realize it. Baela doesn't confirm this to Elenda. But she and Elenda both know they can't fling any accusations around bcoz Alysanne is well loved by all the siblings as she becomes a mother-like figure to the younger ones post Rhaenyra's death and a supportive shoulder for Jace to lean in on. Just like in IKYLAO.

She says "Fuck this" and convinces Rhaenys and Corlys to let her marry Luke and get Driftmark. She knows Daemon can help but she knows Daemon would try to solve it by killing her and it might be transparent that he did it to make Baela the Queen.

Interestingly enough, Aemond suspects Alysanne as well and Elenda and Baela's actions confirm it for him.

Alysanne gets to marry Jace. Now here I am a bit unsure as to what would cause her to grow disenchanted by him. Is it bcoz she is tired of always putting on an act around him? Or Aemond finds a way to drive a wedge between both of them? Say Jace did go to the North at the start when Aegon was coronated. Maybe he had a lil something with Sara Snow or he didn't but they did bond.

When Cregan comes to bend the knee, Sara does too. Aemond is intrigued by Alysanne's dark side and wants to provoke her again to see what she would do. He leads her to believe with anonymous tips that Sara is carrying Jace's bastard. Again, maybe she is or she isn't. That's upto you.

Alysanne is furious. She wants to confront Jace but at the same time she doesn't want any confirmation from him coz she knows he won't be able to lie to her if it's the truth. Or maybe Aemond starts being around more and gets to her about how she has done so much to secure her and Jace's place but all in vain. He reveals to her that he knows she killed Cassandra. And provokes her to kill Sara as well. She tries but somehow it gets botched or she sees Jace with her (platonically). When Aemond comes to taunt her, she kisses him to shut him up and taunts him back how she hasn't lost anything as she still gets to be the Queen.

This starts a delicious dark courting between them too. Aemond fully intends to seduce her so he can ensure that Alysanne's kids are his bastards who get to sit the throne as a final "Fuck you" to the Blacks. Alysanne sees through it but goes along with it regardless as she likes how free and accepted she feels with Aemond.

She decides to cheat on Jace with Aemond and basically the heir, the spare and the spare's spare to the throne are Aemond's children. It isn't that apparent as people believe the Valyrian silver locks skipped a generation.

But the people do keep wondering why a bloodthirsty Aemond has stuck around in the Red Keep for so many years. He hasn't tried to kill any of the Blacks either or attempted a coup. Maybe he won Jace's trust enough to have a seat in the Small Council as well.

Jace figures it out when the fourth child does end up being Jace's kid. He starts wondering why his other children don't have his pug nose or the minute Strong features that people won't notice without a deep look.

He confronts Aemond and Alysanne eventually. He either decides to change the succession so the throne goes to his fourth kid who is a son.

Or say the first kid is a daughter and she was to marry the spare as a consort. Jace decides to break that betrothal and betroth the heir to his son who is the fourth kid.

He does love Alysanne so he promises that he won't reveal about the first three kids being bastards to the public. Maybe he decides to exile Aemond or some way to punish him without being obvious about it.

He plans to reveal this to the change to the Small Council the next day. Alysanne and Aemond kill him coz they know even if Jace doesn't reveal the truth, the change in succession will cause tongues to wag.

And Alysanne does believe that Jace had a bastard and goes to Winterfell regularly to meet him. This may or may not be true. So she wants to have this as a revenge.

They kill him before he can change anything. Alysanne becomes Queen Regent as her heir is still very young. She decides to marry Aemond and have him as Consort or maybe not as that might make it transparent.

So yes. Oof that was huge. If you made it till the bottom, kudos and thanks!!!

If you do decide to do this then I would love to see your spin on it and if you don't then I would love to hear your thoughts on what Alysanne and Aemond can do or won't.

Love 💗

Mer

oh this is so wonderful! thanks for being so passionate about IKYLAO.

now, tbh, this is a pretty long prompt, and I like to keep entries for "sacred prayer" relatively short, but I def some ambition for a multi-chapter story if u want to pursue that! there's so many interesting ideas here.

I think Elenda Caron is an OC, or is she in Fire and Blood? I'm not certain, but I'd love to explore Baela more. I wish the show had given her more screen time, and I feel like I've done her a bit of a disservice in my fics too as she's a hard character to crack for me, given her even more severed allegiances in IKYLAO.

Also, tbh, I don't think I can write anymore infidelity stuff, even if it's for dark Alysanne. writing that Jace x alys one shot was fun little escapism , but I def felt like it went against Alysanne (well regular her anyhow) to have her do that given how loyal/devoted she is to people. and also writing infidelity involves a lot of betrayal that, to be honest, I do not have the emotional capability to deliver at this moment.

but alas, let's think about this more! the angst of aemond watching alysanne and Jace raise kids he knows are his. I think he's too possessive for that tbh lol. he would def try and kill Jace at some point.

now, if Jace was just his regular self in this fic, idk that he'd have a full blown affair? maybe he had one with Sara before he got betrothed to alysanne, but tbh I really hope in the show they don't go the Sara snow/Jace route, so that's my own personal bias. but I think if he did have a bastard, he would be upfront with alysanne from the start, though I think he'd try not to have one given his own sensitivity to that status and wouldn't wish that upon a child.

Dark Alysanne as I wrote her in that last prompt is a pretty ambitious/ruthless person, so I can't say she wouldn't potentially murder a husband that got in her way, even if she did once love him. the Cersei vibes lmao. but I do think, even if she was having an affair with aemond or anyone else, she'd make sure that her first born was her husband's because she's not interested in making her mother's mistakes again. I think Dark Alysanne in particular recognizes that in order to gain true power/influence she has to play by the rules a bit instead of discarding them at every turn, even if she wants to. esp bc Jace and Aemond look so different.

I guess kind of like Margaery Tyrell - who probably cared about the people to some degree, but definitely over exaggerated that care in public to better her reputation, you know? like flawless PR. Alysanne would be like that, so no one would suspect her when her enemies start dropping like flies.

imagining a world where alysanne would kill Jace is rough though. have to say! she cares about him so much. I think even with aemond in that dark alysanne prompt I wrote she'd either have it happen in battle or have him locked away, though her affection for him in that universe is a lot more perverted/selfish and a manifestation of her own arrogance.

if alysanne did eventually marry aemond in this universe though, I think it would very much turn into an Edward iii, Isabella of France, and Roger mortimer situation, where Edward killed his mother's lover after he ascended the throne because they killed and deposed his father/Roger became too powerful. so maybe it's that fourth son you mentioned that did it?

or, because in this universe Jace unwittingly raised aemond's kids as his own they view him as their real dad and suspect their mom/aemond for his murder. who knows! either way, I'd like to think alysanne ends up in a big castle with a lot of gold lmao, living her best single life bc her kids could never kill her.

thanks sm for this prompt! I'm sorry I (probably) can't deliver on it, but it was super fun to talk about ♥️

[ofhouseadama]

I think it was first mentioned ages ago but can you talk about the Garak/Cardassian breeding kink and Julian learning about it?

*slams fists on the table* yes ABSOLUTELY

Actually my wife and I were just talking about the patented Cardassian Breeding Kink (TM) a few nights ago while driving six and a half hours up to NoVa for a wedding because all our weirdest and funniest and most unhinged ideas come to us after dark in the car on the highway.

But like... in a society where hereditary legacy and bloodlines and legitimacy are so important and bastardy and premarital/extramarital sex is so transgressive and deviant and tantalizing... there HAS to be a breeding kink. Like come on. Look at Catholicism. I know Dukat is a raging sociopath and Garak is... Garak but from what we know, Cardassian society is obsessed with children and producing children and punishing people for producing the wrong kind of children and rewarding people who have a litter of legitimate heirs.

If it walks like a breeding kink, talks like a breeding kink...

It's a breeding kink.

And I think that Kira knows this. I think she has to know. And we were talking about a scenario where Garak is on DS9 coming or going from Earth or Bajor or somewhere for diplomatic reasons and Julian's stayed behind on Cardassia because he has a few patients at his clinic due to deliver any day now, he has to see them through to the end, no matter what happens -- and so Garak and Kira are sitting in Quark's or in a holosuite drinking when Garak gets a vid of Julian cradling multiple fat Cardassian babies. He hasn't slept in two days and it looks like it, he's in his surgical scrubs, he's covered in viscera from the birth but like... babies. Fat, healthy babies. A rare and precious commodity on post-Dominion bombardment Cardassia. These are the first fat, healthy born at term and in the 99th percentile of height and weight Cardassian babies in over a YEAR.

And Kira. She's had just enough to drink to see how this is effecting Garak. He's blushing however Cardassians blush. The man is flustered. There's a second video taken by the mother of one of the babies as Julian rocks the baby while doing the post natal exam. It's too much for him to bear. The most transgressive thing that the bastard son of a ruling class man can do is want to participate in legally sanctioned marriage and sire some heirs.

She decides to make it worse. Kira chooses violence. Taking a gulp of springwine and running her mouth about how Julian is like, so good at medicine. So good at it that he transplanted Kirayoshi O'Brien into her uterus. She wonders what he could do if he had enough time and resources to transplant an entire uterus. The science is probably there. Hell, if he'd had the time and been able to operate on himself, he would have transplanted Kirayoshi into himself. And if anyone was gonna know how to engineer a Human-Cardassian baby, it's Julian. And Julian would make such pretty babies. Wouldn't he make such pretty babies with someone, Garak?

How does Julian find out about this exchange? Desperately unclear. I think Garak is definitely still years from admitting to himself what he wants, which is to like. Heal and be capable of emotions and participating in a family and having friends.

But I think Julian definitely notices how Garak acts the first time Julian puts a foundling baby in his arms while he pulls out medical supplies and formula and a blanket and diapers in anticipation of examining the baby before calling the orphanage. And like. Garak's not ready, they're both not ready. And Cardassia's reproductive health crisis in the face of starvation and disease and radiation is critical enough that a relatively healthy newborn will have no problem being placed in a family.

But after that... every time Julian discovers a foundling baby on the clinic steps in the hours before it opens for the morning, he puts the baby in Garak's arms. And eventually, the baby that's found is a Human-Cardassian hybrid. And Garak balks.

Because this baby won't have such an easy time being placed. Cardassians want babies they can pass of easily as theirs. They want uncomplicated newborns without histories and traumas and the complex medical issues that come along with first generation hybridization. This baby will just go to the orphanage. Who will hold them? Rock them to sleep? Make sure their needs are met? How dare you, Julian. It would be so irresponsible. The baby needs to stay with us. We'll protect them and take care of them and hold them dear and if you dare to tell me that that's fatherhood I will deny it vehemently.

But anyway somewhere in that process they both get very drunk at like, someone's wedding or a festival and Julian goads Garak during sex by telling him he wants to have his babies and tells him to cum inside him.

We all contain multitudes.

[edoro]

Given the interactions Belos has had with Luz, do you think he is somehow obsessed with her?

it certainly seems like she left an impression!

with the context of s2e12, we can tell that he did, in fact, Stay Mad at Lilith. just when he figured out that Lilith Clawthorne is the 'aunt Dirtrude' who broke his nose 300 years in the past is up for debate (personally i don't think it could have been right away and i think that moment of sudden realization had to have been hilarious) but obviously at some point he did and dedicated himself to making Lilith's life miserable in a hundred small ways while using her to further his own aims. bastardy in style.

but he's so playful with Luz! like i said before, that really stood out to me at the end of the s1 finale. it was a really fascinating glimpse of characterization for him, since up until then he'd just sort of loomed over the background as this formless, shadowy antagonistic force.

he doesn't seem mad at her. he wants to talk to her, and then when she isn't interested in talking, he just plays around with her a bit. he doesn't take her seriously at all, but he's not trying to hurt her either, and frankly if he wanted to he could disable her as easily as he did Lilith. he's all avoidance, and then he manipulates her into giving up the portal, and gets in that last little jab about letting her go be a hero.

and then of course there's the message he has Terra pass on, about how he's looking forward to meeting her. that's just so weird and petty and playful. she of course has no context for that and it's unlikely she's even going to put two and two together about it for a while here. literally no one other than him has any fucking idea what he's talking about! but it amused him, so he did it.

Belos is still just... so inscrutable. his motivations are still very unclear. we know what he's telling people they are, and we also know that that's really not true, and we have some ideas what they might be, but the full reasoning eludes us atm. it's still so hard to get a handle on what he actually cares about, what actually matters to him, what actually means anything to him. he's so manipulative and there are so many layers to it.

a lot of people theorize that he went easy on her because he knew he needed to let her live to a certain point to complete the timeloop, and that she's about to find out he doesn't need her anymore, and that's definitely plausible, but i'm not so sure. he really does come across as if he's got some kind of fondness for her. not that i think he'd let that get in the way of his plans - look at Hunter, or whatever went down with his brother - but it really seems like it's there.

and i for one find the implications of him having ended up with this fixation on her after their brief encounter in the past very fascinating. he's such an absolute creep, and the idea of him ending up sort of obsessed with this strange girl he met for a couple of hours gives rise to all sorts of dreadful concepts.

[jackoshadows]

Unpopular opinion, but I disagree with the notion that Jon should be accepting of his bastardy and not rule if given the chance. Even  “I don’t want it ” show!Jon ended up as KITN when some Northerners randomly made him one despite Ned Stark’s trueborn daughter sitting beside him, so why wouldn’t the book version - who does want it - not accept an offer to be King? 

Why shouldn’t Jon Snow rule the North and Winterfell? Of the remaining Starks, he’s the oldest, most experienced and qualified. He is Ned Stark’s son. Winterfell is as much as his home as it is to the rest of the Starks. He learned from the same people Robb did. Removing any gender and class bias, Jon’s still the best person belonging to house Stark to rule the North. Robb Stark certainly thought so.

Jon has never let being a bastard define what he is capable of. He has always looked beyond class lines and valued people for what they are capable of rather than the limited and narrow views that society has. Why wouldn’t Jon want to rule the North?

I feel that reasons like ‘Jon is a bastard, he should remain a bastard, Jon being king would undermine his story, perfect King Jon would be boring etc.’ are just excuses for wanting Jon out of rulership. One may as well say that they want *insert favorite character* to be king/Queen rather than Jon.

Rather, I think this line of thinking should be applied to someone like Young Griff - and this is precisely the story that GRRM is trying to tell with the character. It would, for example, be boring for secret, trueborn, Targaryen prince Aegon to go on to be the perfect king that Varys expects him to be.

Young Griff is the perfect king on paper –  groomed to know the common man’s struggle, he’s smart, well liked etc. But for us readers, him becoming king would feel unearned. Young Griff is actually a critique of unearned rulership.  We see from his cyvasse game with Tyrion, that he is arrogant and spoiled. He feels entitled to Dany’s dragons – the dragons that Dany has hatched and nurtured and bonded with. He thinks that Dany will immediately throw her full support behind him.

Compare Young Griff to Jon, Dany and Arya. Jon is defending the realm without any expectation of reward, planning Stannis’ campaign to win the North, preparing the wall for an attack from an existential threat. Dany halts her Westerosi campaign and is ruling Meereen for the people, dealing with insurgency, famine and sickness, having to make the hard decisions that come at great personal cost. Arya actually lived among small folk in war torn Westeros. She has no Jon Connington or mercenaries protecting her as she fake lives among the small folk – her experiences are real. The pain and trauma she experiences – that she sees the small folk go through – that’s real. It was about survival for her, instead of Young Griff learning how to fish and wash clothes.

Young Griff is supposed to feel unearned. He is a stand in for Jon, Dany and Arya – the secret prince, the Targaryen come to take the Iron Throne and the Stark princess who has actually lived among the small folk and befriended them. Young Griff is Jon, Dany and Arya without their actual experiences.  Not to mention that in GRRM’s world, there are no perfect kings or queens. His rulers are flawed leaders who make mistakes because ruling is hard.

That has been GRRM’s position  - rulership has to be earned. And I think right now 17 year old Jon and 16 year old Dany have earned their leadership positions by actually doing and learning. If Jon Snow becomes KITN, he would have earned that position.

I also disagree with the notion that Jon should not be trueborn because that would ruin his character and make his story pointless.

This is Jon Snow we are talking about here. The Jon Snow who loved wild child Arya for her bird’s nest hair and her scabby knees and gave Lady Arya Stark a sword because she wanted to learn how to use it like her brothers. The Jon Snow who thought that it was okay if Randyll Tarly’s eldest son did not want to fight and asked Maester Aemon to take Sam on because he’s intelligent and liked to read. The Jon Snow who made Satin his steward because he was quick and clever and fearless in a fight. The Jon Snow who held out his hand and called Tyrion Lannister friend.

The Jon Snow who said this:

The collar is supposed to remind a maester of the realm he serves, isn’t that so? Lords are gold and knights steel, but two links can’t make a chain. You also need silver and iron and lead, tin and copper and bronze and all the rest, and those are farmers and smiths and merchants and the like. A chain needs all sorts of metals, and a land needs all sorts of people. The Night’s Watch needs all sorts too. Why else have rangers and stewards and builders? Lord Randyll couldn’t make Sam a warrior, and Ser Alliser won’t either. You can’t hammer tin into iron, no matter how hard you beat it, but that doesn’t mean tin is useless. Why shouldn’t Sam be a steward?”

If this Jon Snow turns out to be trueborn, does he suddenly regress into a person who buys into Westeros’ patriarchal and primitive notions of blood and birth defining who a person should be? Is he suddenly going to expect Arya to behave like a southron lady? Fire Satin from his job?

Is Jon going to believe that being trueborn is superior and that is why he became Lord Commander? Are we as readers going to think that Jon only got to where he is because he is trueborn? All the decisions he made  – all that is retroactively ruined because he’s trueborn?

I doubt Jon is trueborn in any case - Rhaegar was married to Elia and they had children.  Rather, I think GRRM will use Jon’s parentage to explore one of the themes that he really loves – the human heart in conflict with itself. It would add an extra layer of angst, self-doubt, and struggle to Jon’s already existing personal issues.  A father he loved and blamed for his bastardy, send him to the wall - to a life of hardship and celibacy - without telling him the truth. Everything he knew about himself is a lie.

With GRRM’s writing, he could delve into Jon’s inner psyche as he is hit with these truths. A possible heir to the Iron Throne ends up a low born bastard at the wall – how does one deal with all this? How does one react? Then there are his relationships with the only other Targaryen and his now cousin Arya. And that’s what would make any such reveal exciting and add complexity to character and character arcs.  And I think that would be damn interesting to read.