#s5 theory

[paladin-n-cleric]

when this mike and will

kiss here

but in the upside down, meaning it’s 1983, meaning their first kiss takes place less than an hour after their first interaction. and their first scene, first fight, and first kiss are all in the same place and “the shame was on the other side” it is OVER for you all

[mlchaelwheeler]

Is the end scene of S4 actually Will's "Vecna vision"?

I just want to quick point out that this possibility was first pointed out by @heroesbyler in this post. I'll be adding some of my own evidence to Stav's original idea, as well as doing some theorizing.

So we know S5 is going to pick up right where S4 left off. We also know that S5 is action-packed from the start. Let's take a look at the final scene of S4, starting from when Will feels Vecna outside Hopper's cabin.

Look how warm the lighting is in this scene! It has warm hues, particularly yellow and orange. However, the minute Will feels Vecna in the back of his neck, the lighting immediately changes.

The scene becomes much darker, the lighting turning towards a blue/grey hue. This is the moment I believe Will entered his trance from Vecna. Let's take a look at the lighting in the scene where Max entered her Vecna vision.

Look familiar? The scene starts out in very bright lighting then quickly shifts to darkness. Why isn't the lighting for Will's vision so starkly different? It's because this is a plot device to throw off the audience's suspicions after S4. No one expected Will to get tranced right at the end. No one would expect the scenes they believe to be real to actually be fabricated by Vecna. It's called suspense! It's a stunning plot twist!

This isn't my only evidence though. Another strange thing about the final scene is that the grass/flowers are decaying right in front of the characters' eyes. El picks up a flower and it disentegrates to pieces. That seems weird, given how far they're standing from a gate.

The nearest gate is way in the distance, perhaps even a mile away. Why is only the grass by the characters rotting? The ground by other gates we've seen looks perfectly normal.

I believe this is because where Vecna goes, things rot. Think back to Chrissy's vision. The table of food she runs across is rotted and decaying. The pit Fred falls into also is rotting and greyish. It's hard to tell with Max's vision, since the entire ground is covered by fog. Yet we can probably assume that where Vecna walks (or around him) is where the ground rots, just like what we see only near the characters in the final scene of S4.

Extra Byler theory about Will's vision:

The final scene makes a big show of Jopper and Jancy holding hands, with Mike and Will standing close to each other, but not touching. There is even a zoom shot on Hopper grabbing Joyce's hand for extra emphasis.

What if Will's vision in S5 starts out with Mike grabbing his hand? Will is startled, but smiles. The camera pans down to their hands linked, only for Mike's hand to fade, replaced by Vecna's. "This is what you've always wanted, right William?" This would be a great parallel to Vecna posing as both Susan and Billy to inflict maximal trauma on Max. Imagine if Vecna is in that final scene, but disguised as Mike.

[foxgonyoom]

If whoever is behind the Jade Emperor's death is trying to cause the world to spiral into chaos, I think Nezha is the next one on their list, and here's why:

(My theory located below, condensed into occasionally colored bullet points, and with pictures! So you don't get bored :>) 

So 

Let’s take a look at these pictures:

Here, in this picture, we get to see all of Heaven’s generals gathered to stop Azure’s rebellion in its tracks.

Now look at this second picture. In it, Nezha and Red Son are the only discernible figures standing out from the crowd of Celestial Soldiers. Which to me, points to one thing:

Nezha is the only (or at least most prominent) general left in Heaven. Meaning before the Jade Emperor’s death, he and the Jade Emperor were just about the only ones running the show. Why are they the only ones left? Well there are a few reasons, but they basically all boil down to:

Most of the really important Celestials left

Allow me to provide my evidence by listing several examples we've witnessed in-show via the following bullet points:

Erlang was nowhere to be found during Azure’s second rebellion, implying that he isn’t present in the Celestial Realm (I heard somewhere that he lives in a mountain in the Mortal Realm and doesn't interfere with Celestial Realm business unless asked by the JE himself, though I'm not sure if that's true or not. Regardless, he doesn't seem to be present in Heaven nonetheless).

Iron Fan left the Celestial Realm to be with DBK

Similarly, Kui Mulang sacrificed his position in the Celestial Realm for love as well

Azure Lion, Peng, and Yellow-Tusk are all former Celestials who decided to rebel against the Jade Emperor, getting them kicked out of Heaven

Considering how many instances of Celestials abandoning their duties in the Celestial Realm (or just being kicked out in the Brotherhood's case) we’ve seen in the show, it’s not too far-fetched to imagine that many other unmentioned Celestials also followed suit, until the Celestial Realm became absurdly understaffed.

I think the Jade Emperor and Nezha being basically the only brain cells in charge could also explain a few things as well:

The Celestial Realm’s overall absence from mortal affairs

If the only people in charge were the JE and Nezha (who was also busy guarding an incredibly important world-destroying artifact, the map to the Samadhi Fire), it would make sense why the Celestial Realm wasn’t getting very involved with the Mortal Realm. They were too busy keeping the realm up and running to interfere with mortals.

Nezha’s personality shift from his mischievous, caution-to-the-wind, “LET-ME-AT-’IM!!!” attitude in the book to his responsible, frustrated, “Don’t-poke-a-fucking-fork-in-the-socket” personality in the show

If Nezha had to take on more and more responsibility in the Celestial Realm (what with having to help keep it running and guarding the map of the Samadhi Fire), his personality would likely shift as a result, turning into the personality presented in the show today. 

(That’s also another parallel between him and MK, that is being forced to take on a larger role in the world by forces outside of their control, when they’d really rather not).

Nezha wanting to fight Azure to the death

While the main reason for Nezha’s stubbornness seems to be that Azure becoming the new Jade Emperor was a big no-no, it could also be that deep down he knew if the Jade Emperor fell, and Azure couldn’t handle the JE’s power, then the responsibility of keeping the realm together would fall to him. A responsibility he wasn’t ready for. 

I’m not as certain about this, however, and it could easily just be a personality thing + Nezha knowing the possible consequences of if Azure failed to keep control of the Emperor’s power.

Why there were only two magic dog statues guarding the Jade Emperor's throne room in Revenge of the Spider Queen (and really just the Celestial Realm's lackluster security overall. Seriously even Jin & Yin robbed the place with seemingly little to no trouble)

If Nezha and JE were basically the only ones in charge, it could explain the poor security in the Celestial Realm. It's not that they're bad at security or anything, don't get me wrong, they're just spread too thin, and have a lot of other things to focus on besides making sure people don't rob them.

My friend suggested this as a possible consequence of a low staffed Celestial Realm when I told them about this theory, and I agree with their idea.

Now here’s the fun part: What Nezha disappearing could cause, because oh boy would it cause a lot! Here’s some possible consequences of Nezha getting poofed:

Celestial Realm on fire

With their basically last leader gone, the Celestial Realm would likely erupt into chaos, which could in and of itself lead to half of the things on this list.

Meeting Erlang

If Nezha disappeared, then the Celestial Realm might end up calling up old generals to help ease the chaos, such as Erlang Shen and Princess Iron Fan. Heck, this might happen even without Nezha disappearing into thin air, considering how much work he’d be swamped with.

Red Son getting some screen time

This might seem a bit arbitrary, but it builds off my last point, because if Iron Fan gets called up to do damage control on the Celestial Realm as a result of Nezha going missing, Red Son would probably take a more active role in the plot.

We’ve seen how he’s basically been recognized as a part of the Monkie Crew now, and we also know that he cares about Nezha, so it's not hard to imagine he'd want to help track down where the missing prince vanished to. Thus, this might be an opportunity for Red Son fans to get their win.

The overarching plot (as well as episodic plots) of season 5

With a Celestial Realm in chaos because nobody’s around to manage it, some demons, animals and artifacts which were being guarded in the Celestial Realm might get loose, requiring our heroes to get them under control before they can cause too much carnage.

This could offer a chance to at least semi-return to our original monster-of-the-week format, albeit with each episode being a bit more connected this time, and there still being an overarching plot (AKA, Operation: Where the Fuck is Nezha).

(And if you're wondering why I also mentioned Celestial animals, in the book, the Goldfish Demon was originally Guan Yin's pet goldfish, who had escaped it's pond and started causing havoc, and the Rhino King originally was a bull(?) that belonged to Lao Tzu, so animals escaping and causing havoc is all too possible)

Obligatory “The gamemaster would gain hold of the Big J’s power”

Probably the first reason that sprang to y’alls minds when I said Nezha was next on the chopping block, but I’ve saved it for last so that you read to the end (hehe I'm so mischievous). Yes, if Nezha gets kidnapped, then the one pulling all the strings behind this would effectively have the JE’s power in their possession. 

This is, of course, assuming Nezha doesn’t manage to sneakily teleport it to someone before he gets captured, although it’s possible that wouldn’t keep the JE’s power from our dear gamemaster for very long.

Now, for my final statement, I’d like to turn your eyes to the last scene of the Monkie Crew and the Monkey King in the S4 special.

Here, Monkey King says that whatever our dear gamemaster has planned, the Monkie Crew can handle it. Together. It then cuts to a shot consisting of the entire Monkie Crew, before shifting to the final segment of the episode.

But

Look at this scene.

Look at who’s missing.

In this scene, we can see the entirety of the Monkie Crew. We can see the original 5 members, we can see Monkey King, we can see Macaque, even Red Son is effectively a part of the gang now. Everyone is here.

Everyone except Nezha.

Nezha is not yet recognized as a part of the Monkie Crew.

He’s still all on his own up in the Celestial Realm, trying to hold everything together. The only thing holding everything together.

The gamemaster knows the Monkie Crew can handle their schemes.

So they’re not going for the Monkie Crew.

They’re going for Nezha.

[messrsbyler]

guys am i reading too much into this?

[bbasmos]

I've seen really crazy theories out there for S5 but the audacity to imply that Will and Vecna have been working together ALL THIS TIME is personally offending the shit out of me.

DO. YOU. EVEN. KNOW. WILL. BYERS.

[byler-alarmist]

Lover's Lake.

There had to be a reason why the writers chose that name, no?

They could have named it anything, like Lake Notawkah or Green Lake or Swan Lake, whatever.

Why did they choose this? Obviously because it's shaped like a heart, but since this is a fictional town, the writers chose that, too. How will the name of the lake play a role in the story to come?

[homieswithhades]

NOOOOOOOOOO because..... i thinking... this tweet... if joyce “told” vecna will’s birthday, which was “used” against him in s4, then that also means that: 

1. jonathan told vecna about lonnie AND castle byers, and how it was jonathan who was there for will during that time.

2. mike told vecna about how him and will first met. 

so.... vecna will most likely continue to use these 3 things to hurt will in s5. all the birthdaygate theories are great because its already hinted in s4: people forgot wills birthday. jonathan and will grow apart while in california (through no fault of theirs) and will feels alienated from his brother who’d always been there for him. mike tells (lies to) el that he loved her the moment he saw her, that his life started the day they found her in the woods, in front of will. (see: it was the best thing ive ever done) 

even if vecna can’t posses/attack will directly all the way out in california, he did something to make sure that he would lose faith in his loved ones, who hurt him as proxies. vecna needs will at his lowest, thinking his friends and family dont care about him, so that he can exploit him for his own gains-- whatever they may be

[mikewheelerinthetardis]

I'm about to break your hearts

The Duffer Bros said they don't do fan service.

So what if... They don't give us a Byler rain kiss or upside down kiss... But a hospital kiss.

And Mike is the one in the hospital.

Will isn't the one who gets Vecna'd.

Think about it. Vecna targets people who have untold guilt and shame. Will is fully out to himself and he knows he's in love with Mike. That's a given. We know this.

However, Mike is denying his sexuality and his love for Will. He hasn't come to terms with it yet. He doesn't want to acknowledge it or confront it because of his internalized homophobia. He feels guilt and shame for what he is and for what he feels.

So what if in the first episode of Season 5, it starts off with not Will, but MIKE getting Vecna'd. Vecna takes him back to the skating rink, one of the worst days of Mike's life, to see Lonnie verbally abusing Will. Vecna then shows him other things like the day they saw them drag Will's fake body out of the quarry, and the day when Will moved away.

The party then brings Mike out of his trance by playing his favorite song "Smalltown Boy". He falls into Will's arms. Mike is broken, not completely, not as much as Max, he can still see, but a couple of his limbs are broken. While Will is cradling him and sobbing, he noticed something sticking out of Mike's shirt pocket. He can barely make out a "W". He pulls it out and looks at Mike questioningly. Mike struggles to say "It's for you. I wrote that for you." before he loses consciousness.

Later on it picks up at the hospital, where everyone is sitting there with Mike. They all leave slowly, leaving Will alone with Mike, who is still unconscious. Finally alone, Will pulls out the letter and starts reading it. His tears fall as he reads Mike's confession and apology. He gets angry and realizes what Vecna took from them, and vows to get revenge. While Mike is still unconscious, Will and the others jump into a gate and finally defeat Vecna.

He spends the next month sitting by Mike's side until he finally awakens. Mike sees Will rereading the letter that's been read so many times the paper is already worn. Will starts crying when he sees Mike finally awake. Their eyes meet and Mike looks down at the letter, his eyes asking all the questions he can't yet. Will nods and all he says is "I love you too. I've always loved you." before he leans in to softly kiss him, then gently pushing his curls off his forehead and letting their heads rest together.

[the-english-cowboy]

I had a realisation and just had to tell my partner about it. I don't know if anyone else understands it, but to summarise it, Robin was there before the land was established as 'private property' (is that the right term?) so in theory, he could just... leave... because why would he automatically stop being allowed to go to a place that isn't button house property if all it is is a piece of paper that says 'you own this'. Wait.... Would this theory not work for all the ghosts then? now all I hope is that the ghosts realise they can leave in s5 and they go on little adventures with eachother and Allison 😭. That would be a nice ending. If this was the case then maybe the captain would go off and try to find Havers 😭😭😭

[cpidcupk]

And when Will is fighting is his final fight with Vecna and and saying something like 'I will never be like you'. A triumphing music is playing on the background.

All that after Mike confessing his love for him, Mike tells Will that Will is the heart and not him, then Will says that they are the heart, together. And they kiss in front of everyone because only their friends are there (it's still the 80s so yeah)

Then you go to Spotify and notice in the s5 soundtrack, there's a track named 'You're The Heart (Reprise)'.

Then you connect the dots. They were playing You're The Heart, but it wasn't backwards like in El's piggyback scene, so Mike and Will really are the heart and truly love each other because their feelings saved the world, unlike Mike's and El's.

[paladin-n-cleric]

we skipped right over the fact that the splits in hawkins met at the library where they found will. like good morning

[mlchaelwheeler]

me in 2024 when i click on 5x05 and the title sequence plays and "the paladin and the cleric" pops up followed by "directed by shawn levy"

[there-was-a-hole-here-itsgonenow]

“Victor claimed his exorcism failed, but it angered this demon which then murdered his family removing their eyes.”

I wonder if Vecna will come close to being defeated again and then isn’t, upsetting him further and getting fed up to the point of trying to kill Will/technically or almost killing Will despite whatever he aims to use him for exactly and Mike is the one to ultimately bring Will ‘back to life.’ There’s so much importance on Mike’s heart and how he is Will’s heart (to Will he is). It makes sense to me that Mike would be the one to keep Will’s heart beating if Will is on the cusp of death again.

[morganee]

you know what the perfect scenario would be for me for s5 byler-wise?

El and Mike break up right at the start of the season and that’s when Mike realises he actually likes Will but doesn’t do anything about it because he’s scared

THEN we get the time jump (I always think it’s going to be like two years) and we get Will and Mike obviously pining after each other and we get cute moments and hopefully they end up together before the season finale so we can also have like a full episode of byler being boyfriends

as much as I’d love for Mike and Will to get together as soon as possible, I’d also like to see Mike single for a while because I think he needs that too, just as much as El does

[bbasmos]

I see no one talking about how Will was able to host a demodog inside his body + withstand the massive MF in his tiny body + being used as a incubator in the UD.

[byler-alarmist]

Do y'all think Argyle was actually awake/woke up and heard the van scene dialogue with Mike and Will? If so, do you think it would come up at some point in S5?