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mswyrr · 5 months

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lucy gray baird's philosophy

I want to "yes, and" this great meta post by @burst-of-iridescent. Specifically this part:

by the end of the book, coriolanus gives in fully to dr gaul’s way of thinking simply because it excuses him from accepting blame for his actions. if he killed sejanus, it’s because he had no choice. if he betrayed lucy gray, it’s because she would’ve betrayed him first. coriolanus refuses to believe in the goodness of humanity because that would have meant accepting the goodness that existed within him, and with that came the potential for making a different, better choice - potential that he knew, deep down, he had wasted. attributing his crimes to an innate evil that no one can overcome means that he can’t be held accountable, because it’s out of his control.

This got me thinking about how much Lucy Gray's worldview rejects of this way of thinking (and of a Calvinist*/ableist "some people are just born evil" pov people try to impose on the text, which people think is condemning him but actually... accidentally agrees with him that he was born evil and therefore can't help it??????). The book begins with several quotes chosen by the author, but I believe the one that represents Lucy Gray's worldview is Rousseau, who believed people were born with fundamental goodness.

Here's a source on him:

(Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

And here's the quote Collins opens with:

“Man is born free; and everywhere he is in chains.” — Jean-Jacques Rousseau, The Social Contract, 1762

That's Lucy Gray's pov she's come to through living and reflecting as an artist; someone can disagree with it (of course, all of these questions are open for endless debate; they have been debated endlessly!) however, it's important to respect that is where she's coming from, not being foolish or naive. It is a worthy pov that should be respected, even if you disagree. And that she came to this pov through a hard life and from much thinking and she expresses it beautifully in her art.

Here's the key exchange from the book, after Coriolanus has taken on the idea that people are just awful and her articulating her philosophy in response:

(Ballad, 495)

She's not naive. She recognizes the nuance that Rousseau does, that society shapes us. And Panem is pretty clearly a society led by people applying all the pressures they can think of on people toward evil. (And, after his heel turn, Coriolanus' is going to innovate some new pressures...) Clearly there are situations and circumstances that form us before we have much say in it, but that's not the same as being born evil.

The difference between inherent goodness and a corrupt society is, for Lucy Gray, a lot of hard work. It's a struggle. This repudiates both the version of "born evil" Coriolanus himself takes on, which relieves him of responsibility, and the self-righteous, Calvinist and/or ableist pov people keep arguing for, which makes "normal" people feel like they can be sure they're good (and ignore how we are all complicit in evil to some degree or another) because they have a "good" normal brain or they were just born so pure as a soul predestined for heaven. No, for her, everyone has to do the work. To her it's everyone's "life's challenge to try and stay on the right side of that line."

Even more pointedly, the love song she wrote him before his betrayal, "Pure as the Driven Snow," articulates her philosophy in the opening lines:

(Ballad, 481)

Again, we have her personal focus on the work of "staying on the right side" of good and evil after being born good into evil circumstances. She knows it hurts; she's led a hard life herself. "It's rough as a bair" to do that work, it's "like walkin' through fire." But it is doable.

Lucy Gray meant it as a love song but IMO "Pure as the Driven Snow" ends up a lament for the boy Coriolanus was and her love that he betrayed when he betrayed himself. And it is a direct rejection of his excuses, it is inadvertently reading him for filth for the lies he tells himself that all the world is the Games arena, all people are selfish and bad, and he isn't to blame for what he's done because he just wants to come out on top/be the victor of this "natural" "war of all against all" that is Gaul's philosophy (related to the Hobbes quote Collins begins with; I wrote a meta on that here) that he adopts.

I see her demeaned as a foolish girl who just "like bad boys" and I get so frustrated. I also get frustrated by the view that she must not have ever been sincere in loving or trusting him because IF SHE WAS then she would be a fool and his betrayal would somehow be her fault. And she'd reject the idea that she's "good" just because she's so pure or that anyone can claim we're good without doing a lot of hard work.

(Ballad, 482)

She is so thoughtful and interesting as a character. And she didn't just "like bad boys" - Coriolanus showed only his good side to her until the very end, once he'd decided to kill that part of himself. She had no way of knowing. Sometimes you trust someone and they betray you, it doesn't make you wrong, the shame is all theirs.

*Strict Calvinist predestination is some people are just predetermined to be bound for heaven and some for hell, some people are just born good and others are born bad. A lot of people in fandom seem to love Calvinism idk why. The ableism bit of this should be self-evident: there is no such thing as a "bad" brain type completely incapable of morality or a "good" brain and neurodivergence is not the source of all evil!

#lucy gray baird #thg meta #the ballad of songbirds and snakes #the hunger games #disagree with her if you want - but respect that her pov is philosophically sound and insightful #and i prefer the reading of the text where she's right and gaul and post heel turn coriolanus are wrong...#he could have kept trying to be good and loving for that girl #people dismissing her or being like 'she was constantly lying like a GIRLBOSS' is just so annoying - she's great as herself thank you #reject the idea that women are to blame for bad things people do #reject the idea that women are to blame for loving #that it must have been her fault somehow

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possibilistfanfiction · 1 year

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Hi! I just wanted to say I love everything you write for warrior nun (& butch bea especially!!) If you're ever in the mood to write more ficlets can I put in my vote for something about mary and ray? the part about them made me so happy !

[a little something!]

'don't laugh at me,' you say, coming downstairs from your guest room at beatrice and ava's to where they're sitting and doing a puzzle at the kitchen island. well, beatrice is doing the puzzle, diligently finishing the edges, while ava just kind of sits and stares. it's... kind of ridiculous, but beatrice had been hurt; there's still a bruise on the back of her head, turning green now — painful, and healing — and the brace over a compression sleeve on her leg. but she's only using one crutch now, and the incision down her stomach has knit together fully now. she's a little stir-crazy, you think, but also pretty tired still — and has been relegated from olympic-level judo to things like puzzles, so, of course, ava had come home with ten of them.

'we'll definitely laugh at you,' ava says, looking up with a grin.

'why wouldn't we?' beatrice asks, attention still on the puzzle pieces.

you sigh. you're happy for them — so, so happy — but the two of them together are also the bane of your fucking existence. ava makes beatrice's shoulders relax, makes a big smile stretch on her face, makes her laugh, every single day; beatrice makes ava brighter, which had seemed impossible, but now you watch them in their own home and you ache, you hug them tightly every night before they go to bed while you stay here while your apartment is finalized. they also, however, love to collectively make fun of you. no shooting allowed, in this new world, even though ava would still be fine. whatever.

'i'm — i'm going on a date.'

'oh, we know,' beatrice says. 'ray hasn't shut up about it for days.'

'so you know what we're doing? thank god, i have no idea what to wear.'

ava grins. dangerous. you could kick her off a cliff again, you really could. 'yeah, we can't tell you where though.'

you roll your eyes. maybe you could swipe a puzzle piece when they're at the beach, that would drive beatrice nuts. 'can you, like, advise an outfit, at least? i've worn all black forever but i don't think that's the vibe.'

'yeah, hot mercenary is not the theme.' ava grins. 'but i love shopping. and bea knows all the good spots.'

'okay, but not boring spots.'

'ava has never complained a day in her life about me being boring.' you just let it pan out from there, ava's adoring smile, the familiar scratch to the back of beatrice's head, so soft and careful, the way beatrice's hands still on their puzzle pieces and her chin lifting, just slightly, so ava bends near her, like a willow to water, and kisses her. eventually, beatrice turns to you. 'see?'

'i don't need you making out to know that you're into each other,' you grumble.

'oh, if you want to see us making out,' ava says, but beatrice puts a gentle hand on ava's wrist. 'okay, never mind. but... shopping! bea, do you feel good enough to go? otherwise i'll just facetime you everywhere.'

beatrice laughs. 'yes, i can go. i'll just sit while mary tries things on.' she turns toward you. 'i know it can be — daunting, to figure out who you want to be. maybe it won't be; ava's always enjoyed it.' ava preens. 'but we'll have fun; i'll take you places where there will be stuff you might be interested in. and, at any time, if you want to leave, just say the word.'

'okay,' you relent — you want to look good for your date, and, as you look at ava in her flowy wide-leg pants and especially beatrice, in a favorite, soft crew neck, you realize that you desperately, and joyfully, want to know who you are.

as promised, beatrice does take you to stores that have interesting clothes — expensive, not that that's anything you'd worry about at this point — and sneakers you had always wanted when you were younger. beatrice finds a pair of dunks that you think are both very clean and, as expected, extremely boring; you get a few that are more interesting, jordan 1s and 4s and a pair of union dunks. ava knocks over a whole rack of clothes, who knows how, but charms the attendant so much they end up laughing as she helps pick things up.

there are a few more stores, with t-shirts and flannels and perfectly fitting pants. they're fancy, you know, understated and cool, and everyone knows beatrice and ava; they're happy to see them, although everyone is worried about beatrice, who handles things like a champ: she's just fine, a cycling accident in spain; recovery has been easy and she's glad to be out of the house; yes, she wants that hoodie even though — with a laugh — she definitely doesn't need it, but ava will steal it anyway.

you can tell this one is beatrice’s particular favorite, because when ava holds the door for her and beatrice walks through — slowly, but steadily, fairly coordinated with her forearm crutch opposite the big leg brace, one of the attendants shoots forward. he’s, well, beautiful, with perfect braids and and dark skin, cargo pants and a pair of off whites you don’t even want to think about how much they cost.

‘beatrice,’ he says, seemingly torn between grinning and frowning, and wraps her in a careful, familiar hug.

‘hi jalen,’ she says, and then jalen hugs ava too, who smiles into his shoulder.

‘hey bud.’

‘i’ve missed you both,’ he says. ‘how are you feeling?’

‘much better,’ beatrice says. ‘i had a facial and a massage yesterday, and down to one crutch, so i can’t complain.’

‘first, still obsessed with your hair.’ he ruffles the top, and you’re a little floored, because beatrice just laughs. ‘and, secondly, ava, you’re okay?’

‘spick and span,’ she confirms, offering two dorky thumbs up that just come off, annoyingly, as charming.

‘jalen, this is mary,’ beatrice says. ‘one of my oldest friends. mary, this is jalen. he’s a regular at ava’s bar and my favorite stylist.’

‘quite the resume,’ you say, and shake his hand.

he smiles. ‘if only beatrice would add keiko’s boyfriend to that list.’

ava snorts. ‘we would if it was true.’

‘one day.’ he sighs. ‘anyway, what are we here for today? we just got the new aime leon dore crews, beatrice.’

‘while i will be getting one of those for sure,’ she says, ‘more importantly, mary has a date tonight! and, plus, needs some new things anyway. she’s been away on business.’

‘delightful.’ he looks you over. ‘i’m feeling a tasha cloud, arike ogunbowale kinda vibe.’ he smiles, excited. ‘what do you think?’

‘i’m into it,’ you say, your chest warming: beatrice knows you; she loves you; she wants to share her life and all the good things in it. she’s built it herself. she knows who will understand.

‘great! and, please tell me if you don’t like something. my feelings won’t be hurt at all, and we want you to feel awesome.’

‘that — yes,’ you say, a little choked up out of nowhere, and you spare a glance at ava and beatrice. beatrice has settled on a couch, her leg outstretched, while ava looks through some crews and holds them up for beatrice to pick a favorite. ‘that sounds perfect.’

jalen helps you find a few pieces you love, that you can mix and match for a number of outfits. it’s surreal, to get to choose what you want — to wear every day; to wear by the beach; to wear to drinks with your sisters, so in love it’s impossible to really be annoyed; to wear on a date.

eventually, beatrice starts to fade, slumping over on ava’s shoulder on the couch, her eyes fluttering, which makes you laugh — and then jalen too, who understands somehow, that she’s okay. or, at least, that she will be.

ava tells jalen to charge everything to their account; she’d told you when you’d first come that the church pays for whatever they want, and, plus, they have beatrice’s essentially infinite trust fund anyway. you leave with a few bags, but not before you ask jalen where he gets his braids done and he grins and gets your number to send you the information. it’s one of a few in your phone; your world grows every day.

'okay,' you say, looking at yourself in your mirror one last time. 'good?'

'you look sexy,' ava says, helpful as always, but bea laughs softly and squeezes your hand.

'you look amazing,' she says, and she really means it. ray hadn't told you much, just that it was casual and no pressure. she's known beatrice for a while now and so, you know, she seems to understand the hesitancy toward big things, a big life. beatrice has one now, and you want one too. it's different, so different than what you thought you would have. but it's not bad; in fact, most of the time it's good.

you tie a flannel around your waist for when it inevitably gets cooler later; you had your braids redone two days ago and your babyhairs are down perfectly. ava is basically vibrating when — endearingly, because she definitely has a key — ray rings the doorbell.

'go, go!' ava says, spinning you by the shoulders in the direction of the stairs. 'beatrice and i are going to ... stay in on your balcony, i guess. right, bea?'

it feels a little like they're your parents or something; whenever lilith visits she trudges along behind them like a teenager being dragged out of her bedroom. but beatrice's smile is gentle and she takes ava's hand. 'yes, i'll make sure that ava gives you your privacy.'

you take a deep breath and nod. 'wish me luck.'

'godspeed,' ava says. 'we definitely won't stay up late waiting on the couch to make sure you get home by your curfew.'

despite yourself, you laugh.

ray brings you flowers and you kiss her cheek and she smiles at you, bright in the setting sun, and takes off her sunglasses and opens your car door.

'this is about as lowkey as it gets,' she says, 'but i thought we could get some in n out and watch the sunset on the beach. i know you get to watch the sunset from beatrice and ava's every day, but i have a spot i love that i want to share with you. i brought some craft beer i like, if you want a drink.' she pauses, grips the steering while tight in her hands, and it sets you at remarkable ease when you realize — she's nervous too. she's excited too.

'that sounds amazing.' she smiles and it's worth it; it's so worth it.

she lets out a relieved breath. 'okay, sweet. do you have an in n out order?'

'i've never actually been.'

'god, that's a crime.'

'look, i've only been in california for a month.'

'that's a whole month!'

you laugh at her genuine dismay. honestly, you didn't think you would be staying; you hadn't even brought more than a few days clothes in a duffel when lilith teleported you. you had planned to stay and take care of beatrice and help ava for a week tops. but then, well — 'better late than never, right?'

'so much better,' ray says, and turns on good 90s r&b while you wait in what you think might be the world's longest drive thru, although when you say that ray just laughs. she's beautiful, and your mind drifts slightly when she licks her fingers after finishing her burger, the pink clouds washing over the both of you. there are a few streaks of grey coming into the inky black of her hair, a mess of curls, and you wonder what it might be like to tangle your hands in it. to let her kiss you. to touch her back.

you talk about everything and nothing at once: who you are, but not the worst parts. not yet.

the sun sets and you put your flannel on and ray grins. 'you look really good,' she says.

'thanks. i — beatrice took me shopping.'

'ah,' ray says, 'my favorite activity to share with her. i love when she charges things to her account.'

'it was pretty sweet, honestly. i — well, you knew her, when you first met. getting out of our old line of work, at least for me, it's a lot of just... trying to figure out who i am now. who i want to be.'

'well, if tonight is anything to go by, and how highly beatrice and ava speak of you, who you are is incredible.'

you duck your head, busy yourself with gathering the napkins from dinner and putting them in the bag. you lift your head and the sun sits gold on the horizon behind ray's head. you almost laugh, then, in a little bit of disbelief — the kind of blessing you are just coming to understand. thank you, shannon, you pray. when ray smiles at you, her eyes squinting in the light, you allow yourself to really wonder: there is a halo around her head, some kind of saint, some kind of holy.

you wonder about resurrections and how ava loves so full, how beatrice is quiet and attentive and so deeply herself, now. you wonder about all of it — hell and grace and the rough orange blanket beneath you and the apartment you'd just gotten approved for, the scar along your shoulder from years ago and how often it rains here. you wonder about all of it, as you cup ray's jaw in your hand as gently as you can and ask is this okay? and she smiles — yeah, of course — and kiss her, in the remnants of the sun and the inky dusk setting in over the waves. the tide goes out, and a beautiful woman kisses you. it's a life. it's one hell of a life.

she holds your hand on the drive back to beatrice and ava's house, and when you open the front door ava scrambles up the stairs to, you guess, act like she wasn't watching out the front window, but beatrice still has her crutch and just waves from the couch, nonplussed. ray had walked you to the door and kissed your cheek and heads back to her car with a little wave in beatrice's direction, and you close the door.

'did you have a good time?' she asks, sleepy and looking like she'd showered earlier, comfortable with her leg propped on a few pillows and a heating pad on her stiff hip.

you sit next to her and then ava flings herself in the middle of you. beatrice lets out a little oof but she laughs, and ava climbs practically on top of her without any resistance. you'll never have a love like that, you're pretty sure, in this life or any of the next, because ava is ava — exuberant and unrelenting and desperately kind — but the quietness is good too. the small intimacies. 'i had a wonderful time.'

'good,' ava says, a kind of totality you're just beginning to understand: things are good. things should be good. 'bea has been falling asleep for an hour —' beatrice pouts — 'but, brunch tomorrow, maybe? i want to hear all about it.'

'yeah,' you say, a little overcome, thinking about the sunset and in n out and what it felt like to kiss someone kind after all this time; thinking about what it was like to come back to people who love you, who want you to be happy — your sisters. 'that sounds perfect.'

and it isn't perfect: beatrice is still hurt and grumpy, which makes ava grumpy, but it's beautiful and smells like the ocean and you eat whatever you want, with no plans for the day. it's not perfect, but it is good. it's a home, and a life, and you let yourself wonder about it all as you steal potatoes from ava's plate and she swats at your hand with a laugh, the sun high in the sky.

#wn #warrior nun fic #avatrice #avatrice fic #kinda they're constantly being annoying in the background lol #like annoying moms #prompts #mary!!!!!! no u will never get an explanation as to why she's back simply bc i love her lol just roll w it #THRILLED that ppl care abt her & ray tho lol that's so fun for me thank u #in the #butch bea 🥺🫡#universe lol

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