#the lgbt community was made for people who are sga and trans

[discos]

this is a reminder don’t touch me or my blog if you’re an ace inclusionist

[eulangelo]

callout for @genderfluidlucifer

google docs

tw for transmisogyny + TERFs + emotional manipulation

Transmisogyny

Lucifer is a huge transmisogynist who will complain 24/7 about how TERFs hurt the ace community, but the moment @randomclustermissile , a trans girl (who is not an exclusionist at all) tries to point out transmisogyny in inclusionist circles (in the most vague and general way possible, without pointing fingers nor calling anyone names) Lucifer will immediatly jump to block her and so they did with me (another inclusionist) and i have to suppose to everyone else who agreed with that post, even arriving to vagueing about us in private group chats to suggest that we were “sympathizing with exclusionists”. all because we dared point out transmisogyny in inclusionist circles. lucifer is TME but apparently they think they’re the authority on TERFs and their talking points but actual trans women are not, according to them, since this is the stuff that they would go and spew to other people. (screenshots from @enbyoctoling​)

here’s more examples of Lucifer (again, a transmasc person) going deep in detail about how according to them, TERFs/SWERFs hate aro/ace people and are an active threat to us

1. link

[Image ID: Three screenshots of a post by Genderfluidlucifer. The first screenshot is of a paragraph that reads, "Hey. So I can actually answer this. Anon your commentary about how you thought terfs would approve of sex repulsed aces is sort of it. Except...not. Basically terfs hate ace people for not wanting sex in the approved by terfs way. Terfs are actually extremely interested in [forcing] amatonormativity onto everyone. Because for as sex negative as terfs are...they don't want to actually acknowledge or change the fact that amatonormativity is at the root cause of rape culture and misogyny."

The second screenshot is a zoomed in section of the post that reads, "So yeah no I have NO idea where exclus allies are getting this idea from that terfs would even remotely care about the sexual rights of ace people. Terfs generally hate any sexualities in the LGBTQ+ acronym that aren't LGB because they can't force a gender binary onto those sexualities. At least, not as easily. That's why it's actually a massive sign of someone who doesn't call themselves a terf being a crypto terf if they use the term LGB in a positive manner. Along with the term SGA, as it is deliberately exclusive of nonbinary and not inherently SGA centric queer-aligned sexualities. /END ID]

link to the full post, these are just excerpts but the whole thing is just a very long rant about how TERFs hate ace people and so on (i think it’s worth noticing that although the actual post is kinda long, trans women are never once brought op in a conversation about TERFs issues and the only time transmisogyny is mentioned is not relevant to the conversation)

2. link

[Image ID: A screenshot of a reblog by genderfluidlucifer. The original poster is nothorses. It reads, "Because apparently I have to say it: Testosterone is not a 'violent' hormone. It doesn't make you 'more aggressive' or a worse person, it doesn't make you 'dangerous,' or 'toxic.' Transmascs do not need to be 'warned of the dangers of T.' We do not need to spend our transitions terrified that we're going to become a danger to those around us - that HRT is going to turn us into a monster.

Everyone experiences mood swings during hormonal shifts (pregnancy, menstruation, menopause, estrogen HRT, etc.) and while you might have grumpy moments or feel anger/frustration that you need to learn to handle differently, that doesn't make you a bad person.

Testosterone can change the way you access/process emotions somewhat, but if you're already thoughtful about how you handle your feelings and treat others, you're going to be fine. It's normal to lash out on occasion, by accident, then apologize and work to do better. It doesn't make you a bad person. Everyone on HRT is prone to this, and everyone experiencing hormonal changes is prone to this.

Getting HRT should be positive and affirming; you should not have to spend your entire transition terrified of becoming a monster."

The post then has a reblog by captainlordauditor that reads, "The big danger of T is that needle ouchy." /END ID]

here’s them reblogging from known transmisogynist user @nothorses (once again, the irony that a post about how testosterone is seen as the "aggressive hormone" does not mention transfem at all which are literally the main victims of this rethoric in the first place)

3. link (1), link (2)

[Image ID: Two screenshots of posts by genderfluidlucifer. The first screenshot reads, "Queer exclus: We're not repackaging terf rhetoric! Saying that is transmisogynistic! Also queer exclus: Remove the plus from LGBT!" and has tags that say, "I will pay these people to grow some god damn self awareness. Imagine being this dense. Queer discourse." The post has 15 notes.

The second screenshot reads, "Honestly it is so stupid and frustrating to see ace exclus continue to deny that the ace discourse was started by terfs. Proof was given countless times. And a big name terf like galesofnovember even admitted to starting it. Those of you who demand proof but ignore all of this never wanted proof to begin with." and is tagged with, "ace discourse. The post has 38 notes. /END ID]

heres another two post of theirs conflating TERFs with ace exclusionism

4. link

[Image ID: A screenshot of a reblogged post by furbearingbrick. The original poster is boxlizard, Lucifer's old account. The original post reads, "By the way for people still in denial about it, here's galesofnovember, a terf, admitting that she intended to start the ace exclus movement. She's taking credit for it. Normally if the victims of this behavior weren't ace/aro or other queer identities y'all be ready to rightfully lynch her. But since it's us, y'all just still wanna stamp your feet and go, 'Nuh uh!' instead of acknowledging facts." The part that says, "admitting that she intended to start the ace exclus movement" is a link to a galesofnovember post.

There is then a reblogged addition from furbearing brick that reads, "archived versions of the receipts" and has two links to the webarchive. The tags read, "Bringing this back since it's apparently still relevant. Terfism mention. Aphobia mention. Queerphobia mention. Blocklist." and has 1,455 notes. /END ID]

this is their post that ive already talked about but basically they found a 52 notes post made by a TERF in 2012 and this one person said "i dont know why i dont get to be the princess of the anti-ace-brigade" and apparently they are convinced that this means TERFs started the ace exclusionism movement and that this is one of their goals. which is insane when TERFs in real life only care about making life miserable for transfem people first and foremost.

5.link

[Image ID: A screenshot of a reblog by genderfluidlucifer. The original poster is yu-gay-fudo. It reads, “Just in case you happen to be unaware, some of the “radfem lite” they post to warm you up to their rhetoric, just off the top of my head:

- Ace/aro exclusionism

- Bi exclusionism or claims that bi people are “less queer” bc of “straight passive privilege”

- Saying you have to be dysphoric to identify as transInvalidating nonbinary people

- Calling queer a slur regardless of context, saying people can’t identify as queer, and saying that it can’t be reclaimed

- “Mogai hell”, “kweer”, or otherwise mocking less common labels and claiming they are “just cishets who want to feel special”

- Excluding sex workers from feminist discussions or claiming that sex work is inherently evil

- Basically anyone who thinks they can determine what other people identify as”. The tags read, "queerphobia tw. twerfs tw. no id." and has 70,727 notes. It was reblogged on March 22nd, 2021 /END ID]

another example of conflating radfems to things that, while wrong, have little to nothing to do with them because being a radfem, again, is something very specific that has all to do with transfem oppression.

Emotional manipulation

Lucifer has done nothing but block, break boundaries, spread lies and vague about people, some of which were even mutuals with them knowing they would see the posts. when confronted about it Lucifer's only answer was "just say you hate me and block me" but they actually ended up blocking everyone first, making it impossible for anyone to set some boundaries with them or even just to calmly confront them about anything.

[proof: Io(popncourse) and Lucifer had a disagreement in a shared discord server, which prompted Lucifer to vague Io in a vent post. Io confronted them, as being vagued is one of buns triggers, to which Lucifer initially agreed to delete the vent post, but then proceeded to victimize themself and immediatly blocked Io. later on, Jude(malewifedeckard) was confronted by Lucifer, then after Jude told them “I’m worried that you’ll vague me just like you did with Io” they proceeded to block Jude and vagued about him too. when Io made a post (which was not a callout, it was just bun setting buns boundaries) explaining what Lucifer did, Lucifer immediatly jumped to victimize themself, acting like they were being called out and straight-up lying, even going so far as to say that no one tried to hear them out, which is a blatant lie if you consider the aforementioned Io and Jude’s attempts at doing so, with Lucifer immediatly blocking and cutting ties with the both of them. ] 

(screenshots taken by @popncourse and @malewifedeckard)

as seen in the proof above Lucifer’s behaviour is not ok because they don’t accept any kind of confrontation and immediatly jump to blocking, and after blocking, they'd immediatly go and vague about the people who confronted them pacificly, spreading more lies and painting themself as the victim and even arriving to say “no one hears me out at all” which is simply not something you can say when you block people who are trying to hear you out in the first place.

this is by no means an invitation to go and harass them, send them hate or anything like that. i absolutely don’t want anything even remotely hateful or negative to be sent their way after this post. 

this post was only made because:

1. as an ace person who fully supports the inclusion of aspec identities in the lgbt+ community i don’t want to support an enviroment that costantly downplays transmisogynistic oppression in order to be taken seriously. there are hundreds of ways to make aspec activism without acting like we(as in TME aspecs)are the victims of a system that seeks for the annihilation of transfemenine people in real life everyday. i especially don’t want to support TME individuals who act transfem-friendly but then block any transfem who tries to speak on transmisogyny without a second thought.

2. Lucifer’s behaviour has hurt two friends of mine and i don’t want to associate with someone who actively breaks people’s boundaries without taking accountability when messing up.

3. i cannot associate with someone who spreads lies about me accusing me of sympathizing with exclusionists all while having me blocked so that i can’t see it nor defend me. they complain about people not hearing them out but they’re the very first person who does not try to hear people out, and instead jumps to spread baseless rumors. this is not someone i can nor want to associate with. 

(image descriptions provided by @malewifedeckard)

[anonymous-cs]

hey mod steel, I’m aroace and agree with the points that have been made about the lack of representation for the lesbian flag in particular especially in regards to the aro/ace flags in previous litters, but your post about “room for discussion of exclusion of certain identities” just gutted me. are you exclus towards aro/ace people? please be willing to answer.

I don't consider myself to be an exclusionist or an inclusionist. I think the whole discussion is actually pretty nuanced. My personal belief falls into thinking more that ace/aro people would benefit from having their own community and spaces. This isn't to say that there cant be any ace/aro people in the lgbt community, because that's literally just not how intersecting identities function. 

I think the challenges lgbt people face are different than those of ace/aro people, and this effects the goals of each general identity group as well. Hence, why I think everyone would be better off if ace/aro people had their own community.

Homophobia and transphobia are intrinsically intertwined in a lot of places, as to why most places have their sga and trans communities worked into one. This is seen a lot with legal matters, as, for example, visibly non straight cisgender people being harassed and kicked out of bathrooms due to antitransgender bathroom bills. Marriage laws preventing same sex marriages have widely affected transgender people of all sexualities. Aphobia isn't intertwined with either of these things, and as its own space would then be able to pursue its own goals. 

The only evidence i can find of legal asexual discrimination is the 2015 russian driving law which mainly targets transgender people. honestly I think its a major mistranslation. I've seen a lot of people use a quote from The Association of Advocates of Russia for Rights that says the law bans from driving "all transgender people, bi-gender, asexual, transvestites, cross-dressers and people who need gender correction (surgery)." and I can't find any information about this association outside of this specific quote. That quote seems to be the only source for the russian law targeting asexual people directly. I really want yall to notice the fact that for some reason asexual is grouped in with “transvestites” and “people who need gender correction surgery” and “bi-gender”. Based on the general gender/sex focused language of the quote, I highly doubly that this is actually about asexuality as known by americans. Either this was some mistranslation of a russian term for “agender”, or they were actually referring to intersex people through mistranslations regarding “asexual reproduction” and specifically the russian term for “hermaphrodite” (I asked someone who speaks russian about this btw, not pulling it out of my ass). If anyone can find me some original sources for this, like from the association itself, id appreciate seeing them.

This isnt to say asexual people don't face any discrimination at all, just that they don't seem to have legal forms of discrimination directly targeting them anywhere in the world. However, transgender and sga people do face legal discrimination and oppression. I don't feel I need to explain this one. 

This large difference in the forms of oppression and discrimination the two groups face also really impacts how each group should then address and work to undo these forms of oppression and discrimination, and I think its ultimately far worse for both lgbt people and ace/aro people to be in seemingly one group working against these issues. I'm not out here trying to attack ace/aro people for existing. They're real people with real struggles, but I think there's just a disconnect between the community goals.

At the end of the day I realize I'm just some dude and my opinions don't have much effect on the world at large. I'm active in lgbt organizations. I'm active in an organization focused on transgender and intersex people. I'm active in real world shit so I generally don't spend energy on trying to push for these large scale community changes. They probably wont happen and I've accepted that. I just want to be able to legally change my name, not have to worry about the costs of medically transitioning, and not have to worry about the safety of the people I love. 

[exclusionistgodzilla]

Bruh one thing I need inclusionists to understand is that some examples of hate towards LGBT people just don't apply to other groups. I know that's a rather broad statement, but hear me out. Let's take the example a lot of inclus use, "yeah, but if you said this to a trans person, it'd be transphobic!". Yes. Saying Trans people don't belong in the LGBT community is indeed transphobic, because they are one of the target groups (being SGA and/or Trans people) the LGBT community was made for. Aside from this, Trans people have been huge contributors in the LGBT community's past, and oftentimes, such statements come with loaded transmisogyny (or they'll straight up say exclus use terf rhetoric, which is brainless in itself, since A. Many exclus are Transfem, B. Its demeaning to the violence and transphobia TERFs perpetuate, and C. Relies on the entirely-different-sentence-but-sounds-vaguely-similar argument.) However, the same statement cannot be made for asexuality/aromanticism. The history of Aspec people in the LGBT community is little to nonexistent, and aside from this, the only truly linked experience a cishet ace person would have to an allosexual LGBT person would be having the term "sexual" in their label (one of the reasons outside sources often group the two, as well.) Aside from this, a cishet aspec person is part of both groups that oppress the two possible aspects of being LGBT, and therefore, can make experiences hard to share, and even perpetuate LGBT-Phobic ideals ('Dont show affection in public', 'Lesbians are scary', 'Lack of sexuality is what makes me pure', and sometimes, beyond that, as seen here or here, and in many individual cases). Let's take another one. "Saying Aspec people shouldn't have prioritization in the LGBT community is the same as saying other groups aren't important, either!" The premise here is very similar, but still something I've heard quite a lot. The difference here is, once again, a cishet aspec person is not who the LGBT community is catered to. To expect so (in many forms, such as forbidding affection in GSAs/requesting it's absence from pride, expecting to be a major voice/resource user in LGBT spaces), is entitled at best, and damaging at worst. Yes, to say Lesbians shouldn't have a forefront voice in the LGBT community WOULD be Lesbophobic. But the difference is clear, IF you know your history. If you were to say this about asexuals in an Aspec community, the same would be true, and it would absolutely be aphobic. There are other examples of this, but most of them include the same rhetoric "But to bisexuals-" "But to nonbinaries-" and the similar, yet different, and extremely baffling "but to x race-". Not sure how or why, but people seem to find new ways to compare LGBT people to their opressors every day. While the statements are similar, the logic just does not hold up if you think about it for more than a minute. Because yes, changing the subject of a sentence will always change the meaning.

[thomaslightwoodenthusiast]

hello! i just wanted to issue a quick statement, and i would like a moment of your time -if you know what i’m going to say.

i have quite strong opinions. one of them is that i personally do not believe cishet aces are inherently lgbt. this is because originally, the community was designed for anyone with SSA/SGA and/or anyone who did not have a cisgendered identity. i made this statement on a post last night, which i now realise may have been insensitive. i want to make one thing clear; i firmly believe cishet aces are deserving of validation and of a safe space- but when so many people disagree on whether your identity belongs, the lgbt community is not safe for that. if you have instagram, i urge to go on to @megamindflops page, scroll down. they have a post called ‘the asexual aromantic coalition’. they make some incredible points. another reason i don’t believe this is that i’ve seen so many of them using qu~|r to describe themselves, and that slur belongs to other parts of the community- like the d slur belongs to lesbians. i commented my opinion on a positivity post about bisexuals, asexuals, and trans people i think? so yeah, i can understand why a few people got upset and for that i totally apologise. i don’t know who specifically was upset (if you’re comfortable with messaging to me i’d love to apologise directly!) but to you; i am sorry. it is my belief, however that does not constitute upset. i had no intentions to upset either. what i would like though, is an actual cishet ace person to explain to me why they believe they are lgbt. not as a sense of ‘justifying’ but as a sense of explaining to someone your point of view, as i have not gotten that. i am still upset at the happenings of last night; but i can understand why they happened. which is kind of why i wanted to make this statement and see if anyone wanted to come forward (privately) and admit the upset and correct me.

that’s it! i just want to double back on a few things;

i did NOT say this about all ace/aro people. i specified cishet. i’m still figuring stuff out myself; and i am definitely biromantic, but i’m quite sex-repulsed so i don’t even know myself.

being ace/aro is not weird at all. it should be seen as normal. not everyone wants to be in a relationship, not everyone wants sex, i mean why is everyone so concerned about another person’s sex life anyway? your life your choice.

i sincerely apologise. i needed to get this off my chest because i have an awful habit of overthinking. i know some people really don’t like me now, but i hope they see this post. i hope they at least listen to my point of view.

i’m going to be inactive for the next few days, maybe just some reblogging. i’m also going to be inactive in chats; it’s clear i’m not wanted right now. i’ll still continue writing the oneshots, but they’ll not be up for a few days. i just need to clear my head and rethink some things.

[angrysnakes]

Anti-queer people talk a lot about how us queers shouldn't force the word onto the whole LGBTQ+ community but don't have the same philosophy for the term sga

Like, queer people don't wanna force every non-cishet to ID as queer, despite how much they claim we do, but absolutely do wanna force "sga" onto every non straight person. They say "lgbt means sga and trans!!!!!" Even though sga is a conversion therapy term. Funny how they want everyone to know that queer is a slur and repress its history as a reclaimed and celebrated term by the community but are fine and dandy with terms made by Christians to medicalize us and abuse us being the criteria for who is "lgbt enough". The whole anti queer movement is hypocritical as hell.

"Don't force this label on us, but we can force this label on all of you!!!"

[arolations]

could you translate the "aro/aces aren't lgbt bc they don't experience sga" argument? [also as a side note, do people who say aros made up their orientation even realize they're using one of the oldest anti-lesbian/feminist arguments? no? talk about lack of self awareness huh]

of course they don’t realize that, to be an exclusionist is to be completely lacking in self awareness

Translation: being part of the community is literally only based on how gay you are. I’m sure that this won’t offend anyone. bi people who? trans people who? and yeah I know that pretty much every major community organization includes ace and aro people but my lOgIc is superior!

[darksteel-relic]

I swear every person who says "nonbinary is not a third gender" is block worthy.

Some people use it as a standalone identity, it can literally be a gender in its own right. It's also an umbrella term, that can describe any gender that is not exclusively male or female: Demigirl, Demiboy, Bigender, Agender, genderfluid, genderqueer... The list goes on.

I only ever see that argument in the context of people trying to limit the definitions of bi. Sometimes it's panphobes insisting the only definition of bi is "attraction to all genders". Sometimes it's exclusionists trying to force the lie that the LGBT community is only for people who are "sga or trans". Regardless I've never seen the argument made in another context.

[blessedarethebinarybreakers]

I’m sorry, but everyone’s pressured to get married and have sex regardless of who you are. SGA and trans people get killed and capital thrives off of their suffering. Aroaces are valid and deserve to have a community, but they are not on the same level as LGBT people

cw mentions of anti-gay and anti-trans violence including murder

hello there! i doubt i’ll change your mind, but – 

i am trans, but i’m an afab and white trans person – i’ll never know what it is to experience the particularly noxious violence that is transmisogynoir. i’m not statistically likely to be murdered for my queerness, not compared to a trans woman of color or even compared to a gay man. i’m still transgender. i’m still queer. i still belong in the LGBTQ community. And hopefully i will stand by my LGBTQA+ fellows who face different forms of discrimination and violence and help make the world better for them, even if my queer experience is different from theirs. 

just because an aro and/or ace person isn’t likely to be killed for their orientation doesn’t mean they’re not part of the community – or that there aren’t other forms of oppression they do face that are baked into our cultural and political and economic institutions. i had hoped that my post made that clear, but i’m sure i didn’t word it as well as i could have. 

i don’t like the idea of basing being LGBTQA+ / queer solely off of suffering. i don’t like language like “not on the same level as” – because oppression isn’t a game with levels and even if it is, then different individuals in the LGBTQA+ community find themselves on different “levels” of oppression. Pretending that we don’t and that we’re all equally oppressed is to deny how race and class and gender and ability status and so much more play into how we’re treated. Plus, i don’t think i’m on a “higher level” of queerness than, say, my cis sapphic wife just because i’m trans as well as sapphic – it’s not about levels. 

A united community of gay persons, bi persons, trans and nonbinary persons, queer persons, and more was founded because of oppression – but even if/when we succeed at eradicating all forms of oppression against us, i like to think we will continue to be a community joined together, celebrating with each other and continuing to stick up for each other. 

just a heads up for anyone else who doesn’t like what i just posted, i’m unlikely to respond to any more responses to that post! so don’t spend your time writing me messages if you’ll be angry if i don’t answer them please – go do something more productive

Also i’d prefer if folks who do agree me don’t respond to any potential negative responses – especially don’t do so in a rude or aggressive manner. thank you! 

[heterophobiclesbean]

Also the thing that I think ace inclusionism misses overall is that like. Historically speaking cishet aces had no business with the LGBT community, and the reason it's the Gays (as in lesbians, gay men, bi people, etc.) and trans people all in one community (not like, the gay community and the trans community, but all together as the LGBT community) isnt because society thinks we are all weird and gross and sexually freaky or whatever. Gay (umbrella for all sga people) and trans (umbrella for all non-cis people) people largely had a shared experience of oppression for most of the community's history. That's why we end up having all these arguments about whether x historical figure was a trans woman or a gay man, a lesbian or a trans man, etc. Because the language we now have to differentiate between these groups didn't necessarily exist back then, and the lived experiences of all of these people had a significant amount of overlap. Gay and trans people were oppressed under a cisheteropatriarchal structure that never cared to differentiate between the two until very recently, which is why the community is not made up of people who all experience the same oppression. It's why the LGBT community is built off people who experience homophobia, transphobia, or both, and there isnt two distinct communities. Arguably that is why we are still a whole community today: because much of our oppressive structures are overlapped in ways that arent materially distinguishable for most people. For example: in many places, a straight trans man wont be able to marry his cis straight wife unless he is legally recognized a man because same-sex marriages are illegal. Even though he is straight, he is materially affected by homophobia as well as transphobia.

Cishet aces have none of this history of shared oppression with us. Even if cishet non-aces still see cishet aces as Freaky Queers Or Whatever, they do not experience homophobia or transphobia and were never a part of our community. Lots of cishets do things society thinks is Freaky Queer Stuff, like BDSM, polyamory, gender nonconformity, etc, but none of those things make any of those cishets LGBT. The only thing anyone can argue is that even if cishet aces experienced enough misdirected homophobia and transphobia that they would claim a right to our community, that's their own damn fault at this point! Not experiencing sexual desire (or as most people see it, not wanting to fuck) was never, ever, ever, ever associated with the LGBT community. We have always been seen as sexual deviants, as perverts, and as predators. That's not and never has been something the ace label carries with it. The reason the ace community might be seen as LGBT related is because the ace community has pushed to be called queer for like a whole damn decade and cishets are dumb enough to take yall at your word for it because they dont really give a fuck who they call queer. A cishet mistaking you for being LGBT after you begged them to call you a queer doesnt make you LGBT, actually. And if you all wanna beg and plead that the AlloCisHets call you fucking freaks they will because cishets are stupid!

And that's why we dont want cishet aces in the community! Because regardless of the social stigmas cishet asexuals face (of which there are many! I wont deny that! I agree that society pathologizes asexuality!!! I'm on your side!!!!!) That doesn't make them LGBT and it doesnt make them queer! You can experience discrimination and even oppression and not be LGBT. There are lots of ways to be oppressed and not be LGBT. Regardless of whether asexuals are societally oppressed, asexuality alone does not make somebody part of the LGBT community because there is no historical precedent and reason why a cishet ace needs a community based on experiencing homophobia and/or transphobia.

[thiefs-end]

please explain further if it’s not a bother! i’m not really educated on the topic of micro identities (tbh i never even heard of most of those you mentioned)

so, i’m just gonna start quickly with the aro/ace part. while i do believe their identity is 100% valid, i don’t believe it makes them inherently lgbt. the lgbt community was specifically created to protect people who experience sga (same gender attraction) and trans people. so unless a person is trans/experiences sga, they aren’t lgbt, it’s simple as that. cishet aro/aces don’t get prosecuted and systematically oppressed for experiencing little to no attraction and therefore they don’t really belong in lgbt spaces, who deal with those specific issues. if they’re cis and attracted to the opposite gender, they’re still not lgbt, because your sexuality is based off of who you are attracted to, not the amount or level of attraction you experience towards them. your sexual attraction doesn’t describe the way you experince your attraction to people, just the gender(s). everyone experiences attraction differently and if we coined a new term for every way people experienced attraction, there would be 7.7 billion sexualities. furthermore, if you can be bi ace/gay ace you can be straight and ace.

mogai identities are basically weird, made up identities by tumblr kids who refused to go by the regular “lgbt” identities because they were seen as unmodern or because they wanted to fit in online without having to actually identify as gay/trans. so instead of saying theyre a “cis girl” they’d call themselves a demigirl and now that means theyre trans. the whole mogai thing escalated and it became some kind of competition. the more microidentities you identified with, the more oppressed/unproblematic you were. lgbt people started getting alienated in their own community, being forced to reclaim slurs because mogais suddenly decided it’s an identity. until this day, you can see people say stuff such as “privileged cis gays”, calling the lgbt labels as “mainstream identities” etc.

these identities are harmful mainly for lgbt youth, because most people who identify with these are young teens who are very confused with themselves and struggle to find labels for every facade of their identity. it is also harmful for cishet people who are dealing with some type of trauma. instead of seeking help, they rely on all these identities because they’re told the way they feel is normal and trust me, i’m speaking from experience.

i spent years identifying as all type of things and it fucked me up because nothing fit me and i wanted desperately to find something to fit me 100%. i then had a long talk with a mogai person who convinced me i wasn’t bisexual. that the way i was attracted to women was normal, that everyone felt that way about people with the same gender. i’ve never really been attracted to men sexually (while i don’t mind having sex with them, there is no sexual attraction) so when i told this mogai person about it, they told me i was ace. i spent a few years identifying as a cishet asexual. i ~came out~ to my mum irl and yea she said i was confused and that i’d find someone else, but that was it. no one cares. no one hurt me. eventually i realised i wasn’t ace, i was just bisexual and was dealing with too much internalised homophobia. i was sexually attracted to women but since i wasn’t attracted to men i just assumed i was ace.

if i were to come out now as bisexual, i will lose my family, my housing, some of my friends and my community. things that never happened when i was ~out~ as ace. while asexual people do have their struggles, they are not comparable to lgbt struggles and therefore do not belong in the community, but should definitely create their own where they can speak up about their struggles

[gaysamoyed]

oh that makes sense! thank u for explaining. are u an ace inclusionist then?

Ace discourse is rarely, if ever, discussed on this blog. That said, I lean more towards inclusionists (though I think people dedicating the majority of their efforts to that could be doing much more vital work) and my opinions are: 

Ace/aro identities are valid/real. 

Ace/aro people deserve communities and ace/aro-specific resources (although underfunded LGBT organizations are not obligated to fund/create/distribute those if they’re prioritizing things like food for homeless trans youth, STI testing for sex workers, legal services, etc.). 

Cishet aces coming to LGBT spaces really is not the main thing you should be spending your energy combatting when we have issues like homelessness, police brutality, abuse, medical discrimination, housing discrimination, etc.. 

Ace/aro people who are cis and don’t experience same gender attraction (sga) may not be LGBT but are LGBTQIA+. Those are sometimes, but not always, different communities (depending on the organization/space). There is no singular LGBT+ community that agrees on everything; we’re made up of a ton of subsets, and it’s up to each group to decide who should be involved. 

It’s okay to have spaces and resources specifically created for people who experience sga and/or are not cis. It’s okay to have ace only spaces. It’s okay to have trans only spaces. It’s okay to have bi only spaces. It’s okay to have lesbian only spaces. It’s okay to have spaces for ace, intersex, sga, and trans people together. etc. 

Exclusionists spending hours doing stuff like trying to keep ace people out of the #pride tag and inclusionists spending hours trying to get exclusionists to add an ace flag to their pride art are wasting their time. Rehashing the same arguments over and over is pointless, and both sides would be better off spending that time reducing harm within and creating/distributing resources for their communities. I don’t understand why people have discourse blogs they spend hours on each day. Kim, there’s people that are dying.

Be compassionate and do what you think makes the most sense in terms of distributing resources. 

[soacethetic]

Hi I just wanted some clarification but I’m a trans bi ace and I don’t see how cishet ace/aros should belong in the lgbt community? Like there isn’t any common ground and I’ve had cishet aces/aros that would interrupt me when telling me they are getting grossed out when I would gush about my same gender crushes or when I talk about trans issues. It made me feel more alienated than feeling apart of something. & the allo privilege seems really homophobic when comparing a lgbt with a cishet acearo

Hey Nonny! I’m gonna assume this is genuine and answer accordingly. But for anyone with similar discourse questions, looking through my blog or pm-ing me would probs be easier. Bc this will be long.

The argument for inclusion really doesn’t centre on cishets of any kind - it’s whether asexuality and aromanticism, on it’s own merits, should be included. The argument for that is that the lgbt+ community is for non-straight orientations (of which aspec IDs are) that are marginalised under cisheterosexism (of which aspec IDs are. We face high rates of sexual harrasment, familial rejection and mental illness that are comparable to bi people, and well above the Straights. We also face pathologisation, dehumanisation, corrective assault and bad media rep/erasure. Trans aces are more likely to face rejection by doctors than non-ace trans people. Life satisfaction is comparable to other lgbt people, and lower than the Straights. This is all not accounting for additional orientations — just aspec identities).

Obviously the exclus argument is that aspec identities aren’t discriminated against ~enough~ (which seems a cruel argument, given we are discriminated against. nevermind it also defines our community by suffering) or that the community is for sga and trans people only (this is something that started on tumblr and changes depending on who’s arguing - truscum say sga and dysphoric, for example. transphobes say just sga. it’s a gross simplification that ignores inclusive lgbt orgs, nonbinary orientations, queer history and non-US countries).

As for your other points, I’m seriously sorry that the cishet aces/aros you know are so shitty, but ultimately shitty individuals should never be taken as representative of an entire minority group. Keeping bigots away should be priority in any group, and it’s good to remember that cishet aces/aros would only be welcome in ace/aro specific groups or events welcome to even CishetTM Allies. They won’t be entering trans or gay specific spaces anymore than cis people would be entering trans specific spaces.

One last thing, ‘allo privilege’ is a term that means nothing. It’s not a cohesive oppression/privilege dynamic as it only applies to cishets, not lgbt people. ‘Allosexual/romantic’ should only be used as a synonym for ‘non-ace/aro,’ not as some kind of privilege indicator -in that (incorrect) context it would, as u said, be homophobic.

Obviously u don’t have to like or associate with cishet aces/aros. U don’t have to be a part of the ace/aro community if you’d rather not. But exclusionary rhetoric is at best, pointless, and at worst, damaging to not only the minority group being targeted, but other groups that could be ‘mistaken’ for the enemy (like with pan, nonbinary, nondysphoric, queer, sometimes even bi people). So in my opinion, keeping the option for aces/aros open is simply more beneficial than not.

[acesian]

Am I the only one a bit pissed about how this website ignores bi people? Maybe its childish of me but everyone in here loves to talk about gay people and lesbians and us bis are supposed to try and squeeze ourselves in that. Every character has to be gay first and only when they have a straight partner the rest of us have a chance to headcanon. Tumblr really does make me feel like a Gay Lite. Nothing against lesbians and gay people I'm glad for them but I want to feel good about my sexuality too

it’s…. a complicated issue imo

like yeah, I definitely think there’s some bi erasure on this site. I’ve seen a couple of blogs (run by TERFs, mind you) that explicitly exclude bi people, even if the blog’s main focus is on issues we all face. bi erasure is one of the reasons I don’t like to use the terms “gay attraction/couple/relationship” and “straight attraction/couple/relationship” to describe myself. 

knowing that there was a “bi discourse” fairly recently does not make me feel comfortable, either. (and some things are still being debated, like whether bi women can use butch/femme/d*ke, whether pansexuality is biphobic, whether we can use the term “monosexual”, etc.) I still have seen posts from people complaining about bisexuals talking about their partner if the relationship doesn’t fit their standards. (in line with this, there was that one screenshot from instagram of the queer couple that was made fun of for “looking straight”)

I’m also very tired of seeing all the bi posts that are like “I’m bi but I wish I wasn’t attracted to men”. It makes me feel like I have to put down one type of my attractions to be accepted into the lgbtq+ community. (also why I dislike the “lgbt is sga and trans” definition, because it feels like I’m only in here because I’m “half gay”. not to mention that it leaves out the issues m-spec people face for being m-spec itself)

so yeah, I do sometimes feel like there’s a lot of restrictions on how we’re allowed to talk about our bisexuality.

however, I think you may want to check up on who you’re following. since there’s so many users on this site, I think you could probably find more bi friendly blogs. for the fandoms that I’m interested in, I haven’t really had issues with the headcanons because the blogs I follow aren’t like that. (and I don’t go into the tags too often.) it’s a shame that we do have to make sure blogs aren’t biphobic, but that’s a problem with biphobes.

I also wonder if lesbians and gay men have different forms of expressing themselves than bi people. like, I’ve seen a lot of jokes about “x person [thor] being a lesbian icon”, while I’ve seen more “puns are bi culture” from our community. obviously lesbians and gay men aren’t to blame for being more visible, but these differences could affect our perceptions.

anyway, you aren’t “gay lite”, being bisexual is a wonderful and good thing, and I hope you find more people who support you and of your bisexuality. 

[radiqueer]

I’m bi and the last time I tried to point out that ‘sga’ is a naturally problematic term and that it is constantly used to ostracize queer people who don’t fit the mold I got called straight and a homophobe and no matter how many times I pointed out that I wasn’t they didn’t listen. Deciding that people who point out that there are issues in the queer community aren’t queer is just a way to uphold harmful systems and act like proper gay people can do no wrong.

the whole gays can do no wrong is so toxic and damaging. I mean, it pretty much directly leads to things like:

the way trans people are treated by cis gays (”I accept your gender but I wouldn’t date you”/”You’re a rapist”/”You’re a fetishizing straight girl” -> which led directly to fujoshi discourse, but sure lets pretend that one’s about the hets and not gay trans men)

the mental illness, assault, and abuse rates for mspec and aspec people, which are far far higher than the what cis gays have (the link is about assault; scroll down)

the way intersex people are regularly demonized and ostracized by the cis/perisex folk

the way t#rfs on this website have made it cool to pretend that lesbians are Objectively The Most Oppressed People In The LGBT and therefore deserve All The Resources, And If You Question That You’re A Lesbophobe. stats? no not here.

the way people actually literally appropriated and erased the origin and history and the phrase corrective rape and framed it as something that could only happen to lesbians instead of like, any queer or lgbtq+ person.

Queer and MOGAI people are straight, actually. No I’m not heteronormative. Just call yourself gay. I don’t care that you’re not gay. I’m not homonormative either. I want you to be invisible and die quiely.

fuck this shit for real.

[breeeliss]

miss-labelled replied to your post “quick queer rant”

Oppression Olympics aside, wasn't the community made SOLELY for sga and trans folks? Like, the A was always for ally as a way of letting in closeted lgbt folks, and the community was built for homophobia and transphobia, no? Times they can change, but isn't it important to keep resources for gay bi and trans people safe for those people to use only?

alright, let me shut this down piece by piece. starting with this bullshit about A “always standing for ally.”

that is completely false. you’re not speaking truth. what you’re doing is taking a side on a debate that has been plaguing our community for a while now about whether the A stands for “ally” or “asexual/aromantic,” and you best believe that this “debate” is really a smokescreen for an even more worrying issue which is that we’re repeating history and starting to gatekeep our community yet again, this time with the ace/aro community. 

including allies within the queer community is fucking bullshit, the primary reason being that allies do not experience any type of oppression. allies are, by definition, allies because they have privilege over those they are performing allyship towards. and for that matter, allyship isn’t an identity. it is an action. insisting upon making allyship an identity reinforces the idea that allyship is something you are and not something you do (which is why you have so many self proclaimed allies who don’t fucking do shit for us but that’s another issue). 

allies also shouldn’t center themselves. allyship isn’t about giving yourself a letter in our acronym it’s about being the feet and not the voice of a movement and using your privilege to elevate oppressed voices and experiences. again, by definition, you are meant to be taking the backseat to all of these conversations. not placing yourself front and center. 

the biggest reason this whole “A stands for ‘ally’” shit started is because people 1) believe that asexual/aromantic people aren’t queer (and i swear to fucking god, if someone clocks me for using the “””””q slur”””””” i’m gonna scream) and 2) that asexual/aromantic people are “stealing resources” from everyone else. 

i don’t know if you know this but the LGBT community didn’t always used to be the LGBT community. it was not SOLELY for sga and trans folk. for a while, gay and lesbian folks weren’t sure if trans people should be included because they thought their community should only include sexual orientations and not gender orientations. before that, there was debate over including bi people. before that, gay men weren’t sure if they wanted to be lumped in with lesbian women. seeing a pattern? me too. it’s almost like our acronym is always expanding. funny how that works...

asexual and aromantic individuals (and anyone who is on that ace/aro/grey/demi spectrum) is queer. done and done. they march in Pride parades all over the country with us. organizations like Stonewall Youth and GLSEN not only celebrate asexuality but emphasize the need to give asexual individuals resources and support. being afraid that these asexual/aromantic folks are going to be stealing resources from you is honestly just complete bullshit. ace/aro folks are not nefariously sneaking into Stonewall Youth and taking housing accommodations away from people who really need it. this always reminds me of those straight people who worry about sexual assault when it comes to creating gender neutral bathrooms for TGNC folks: you’re trying to apply ridiculous and outlandish logic to justify your intolerance, and i see right through it. 

so in closing: i’m debunking your entire reply as nonsense. A stands for asexual/aromantic/agender and encompasses everyone on the grey/demi spectrum as well. ace/aro/demi/grey folks are queer. they belong in our community. i don’t want to hear any different. for anyone who disagrees, the unfollow button can be located on the upper right hand corner of your screen.