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I didn't know where else to ask this, so if you don't post this, I understand, but wtf is a proshipper/comshipper?
I mean, based off of how everyone acts about them they're clearly problematic, but what do they do that's a problem?
I genuinely don't know what they are, and google is telling me things that don't seem like the whole truth based off of the way people are acting. I need to know so that way I can make sure I'm not friends with problematic people irl or online.
Can someone help pls?
TW/CW: mentions of abuse, pedophilia, incest, harassment, and pro/comshippers
"Proship" has technically two definitions, with antis (people against proshipping) saying it stands for "problematic ship" while proshippers themselves say it stands for "pro shipping" (in the sense of "pro" meaning "to be for/support"). No matter which way you see the label being shortened to, it means they support every type of relationship, including incest, pedophilia, abusive relationships, and other horrible things. Proshippers claim they do this because they're "anti censorship", "anti harassment", or they "want people to be allowed to ship whatever they want no matter what". But these are gross sentiments to have considering the context they specifically use it in and relationship dynamics we're talking about (though, yes, you can be anti harassment and anti censorship without being a proshipper, it's just terms they use a lot to claim what they're doing is good). They think that every ship has a right to exist, though importantly, to ship something is to support it, so there is no "I ship it but I don't support the relationship". The act of shipping in it of itself is supporting the relationship.
Comship is for "complicated ship", and is synonymous with proship. Same thing, different label. Both will think of any excuse under the sun to try and say why they're actually not that bad, but they're all twisted words or exaggerated truths. Granted, antis don't always handle situations regarding proshippers the best, there have been cases of antis going much too far or sending harassment. But proshippers will have you believe antis are these super brutal abusers in fandoms who harass people 24/7, and that's not true at all. Proshippers also frequently ignore their own histories of severe harassment to make themselves look better.
There are some beliefs pro/comshippers have that you can have and it won't automatically make you one of them. You can believe in anti censorship and anti harassment, in people being allowed to ship without being harassed, or in representation of complex relationships without being a pro/comshipper. It's how these sentiments are applied that make the difference. "Ship whatever you want" should not extend to pedophilia, incest, abusive relationships, or other similarly disgusting themes. Representation of complicated dynamics should not be used to support or normalize those dynamics if they're unhealthy/abusive/ect. Anti censorship and anti harassment shouldn't equate to showing people this disgusting content without their consent, or to children just because "it happens". That doesn't make it okay.
The reason the labels are so often confused is because there are people that use them in the wrong way or where the label wouldn't apply. A healthy relationship between two consenting full-grown adults can't be pro or comship. It's when you start subtracting from that is when it becomes genuinely harmful (abusive, nonconsensual, barely legal, or involving children). Normalizing or supporting these relationships is harmful and in several instances has done active harm to real people. The only ones who debate this are people who are part of those groups themselves who try to scramble for every possible excuse as to why it's okay (it isn't). I'd be here all day if I explained every single pro/comship argument and why they're wrong or don't apply the way they think it does, but as a general overview and definition this should work
#self shipping#self ship#selfship#selfship community#selfshipping#self ship community#selfship confessions#selfshipper#self shipper#self ships#tw proship#tw proshitter#cw proship#cw proshitter#tw comship#tw comshipper#cw comship#cw comshipper#dni proship#anti proship#fuck proshitters#proship dni#proshitters dni#dni comship#comship dni#anti comship#anti proshitter#confession 408#owner answers
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I’m really not sure who to send this to, because there’s no “one blog” to talk to about this. However, with you being a proship discourse blog, I figured it would be.. alright? The best choice? Not sure. I’m sorry if this isn’t the right place to say this, or you don’t want me to send you this.
(I’d appreciate it if this was posted so more people can see it)
I would make this my own separate post, but I’d rather not deal with people telling me horrible things in my inbox.
So.. I was an anti. Keyword was. I like to think of myself as a generally open-minded person, and I’m okay with most things that the internet deems weird or unacceptable. The ONLY REASON I was an anti is because of how antis twisted the meaning of the word “proship”.
I want no association with the group of people that actively send horrible, horrible things to people, all because they enjoy their fandom. Because I want no association with the people that think it’s okay to doxx and harass people over fandom.
I thought that proshippers were people that supported and were okay with “problematic” ships such as incest. I thought that proshippers were people that were okay with those ships being carried over to real life, or people that might be influenced by those types of ships to do those things in real life. I thought that proshippers were people that wouldn’t mind seeing similar content of real people.
While yes, some proshippers do like to consume content of “problematic” ships, I now realize that that isn’t the real term. It was just antis making the term “proship” associated with the word “pedophile” or “pro- (real) incest”.
Just one half-hour long scroll on the proship tag has made me change my opinion. Just THIRTY MINUTES.
I am now a proshipper myself, and don’t mind being called such. Would I consume content that I’m uncomfortable with? No. But do I respect those that do and leave them be? Yes. Do I support the ORIGINAL, UNCHANGED intentions behind the word proship? Absolutely.
If you are an anti yourself reading this- first of all, why are you in these tags in the first place?- second of all. The original meaning of “proship” is the golden rule. Taught in elementary school. Treat people how you want to be treated. And if you don’t like something, don’t interact with it. It is ultimately your fault if you are actively seeking out content that makes you uncomfortable.
Yeah I used to be an anti for the same exact reasons, Anon. You aren’t alone in your experience! :) I don’t like “problematic” fiction, and I stay away from that. But it’s not really my business if others DO like that type of thing, for ANY reason. Fiction doesn’t hurt people, groomers and other abusers are the ones who hurt people. Sure, someone can see things through a fictional medium that effects them negatively, but ultimately, it’s the choice to act on thoughts that makes the difference.
I keep this blog private from my other corners of the internet, for good reason. Antis can be dangerous and I don’t want to deal with that. And I don’t blame you for feeling the same way! You still should have a voice though, and feel like you are making some sort of difference :)))
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An Extremely Biased Account of Pro- and Anti- Shipping, from a Genficcer
So, I'm a genficcer. Most of what I write is gen, when I do ship something, it's almost always using canon pairings in the vein of "they're married or extremely together in canon, they're married or extremely together in this fic" type. Most of what I write is PG-13ish. (I do sometimes write darker, but not often). All this to say that I have very little skin in the "game" of pro and anti-shippers.
Or. You'd think I would. Except I firmly believe that this is important, and important to understand.
Warnings: as the title says, I am not going to be objective. I have firm feelings on the matter, and they will be very, very, very apparent in this post. I am not attempting to be objective. If you'd prefer not to read something like that, I'll put the rest behind a read more. But if you'd like to know why I think it's important, then read on.
This was definitely inspired by two things. The poll I reblogged where (as of right now) 9% of respondents think it's ok to harass people over shipping, and someone I follow asking if a certain ship is a "proship".
Definitions as I understand them (this part, I'll try to keep as objective as possible, because some people aren't sure what it means):
Pro-ship: Ship and Let ship. Don't like; don't read; YKINMKATO (aka Kink Tomato, aka Your Kink Is Not My Kink And That's Ok). Effectively, it's the believe that people are allowed to read and write (or draw and view) what they want. As long as everything is properly tagged and warned for, there's no harm, no foul. At least when dealing with fictional character. (Things are more murky when it comes to real people and I'm not going to get deeply into that. This will be talking about fictional characters only.)
Anti-ship: The belief that there are certain ships, or acts, or types of stories/art that should not be allowed to be created or viewed. It doesn't matter if it's with fictional characters. It's still wrong, and shouldn't be allowed on the internet.
Alright, attempted objective part over.
The rest of this is completely my opinion, backed up by being in fandom since 1999/2000.
Antis are dangerously wrong. Flat out. It's a dangerous philosophy.
It's saying that certain things are so wrong, so awful, they can't be seen even in make-believe. A lot of Antis also believe that anyone who is a "proshipper" (which at least the loudest Antis also say means something like "pro-rape" or "pro-pedophilia") is wrong and shouldn't be allowed in fandom either.
I'll get into why that's bad in a bit.
But why is just the belief that some themes shouldn't be allowed in fandom or online bad? Wouldn't that make things safer for kids?
I say... which kids? And safer from who?
Also, who decides what's not allowed? Who decides what are so evil, and so horrible that people cannot be allowed to put them on the internet? Is it fandom people? Is it the people who own the servers (like in the 07 LiveJournal Strikethough)? Is it people outside of fandom? Some antis say that it should just be things that are illegal. in that case... illegal where? There are countries where being gay is illegal, does that mean all M/M and F/F fic should be banned? There are countries where incest, so long as it's consensual, is legal. Does that mean it shouldn't be banned?
How do you stop something like that from snowballing and eventually banning all but the tamest of fics?
But that's just one reason I think it's dangerous.
The bigger reason, is what I stated a few paragraphs up. Some Antis take the position that if you're writing the things they hate (and while sometimes it's serious things, sometimes it's just an opposing ship), you need to be run out of fandom.
And that's very dangerous.
I have seen hate campaigns against writers and authors for daring to write something dark, or shipping a character with another. It's been happening as long as fandom exists, but antis...
The antis that I've been unfortunately enough to interact with believe that if anyone ships a ship that they deem "problematic" is wrong, evil, needs to be run out of fandom, and in some cases have their real lives ruined.
By the way, the problematic in that can range from "I believe this character is too young for that character, even if they're both adults" to "anyone who ships these two character are homophobic, because I think the man should be with another man" to "even rape survivors working out their trauma are evil for writing rape" to things that I hate knowing are up on the internet, but will never ever attempt to have them removed, because it's not my job to police what other people like.
Just a reminder, this is all talking about fandom and fictional characters. I am not talking about real people, real life events, or anything else. It's all drawings and stories. Not photographs or films. (though fan films exist, but I've never seen any antis go against them- maybe I've been lucky. Anyway.)
I have seen people use the anti's to run people they dislike out of fandom. They lie about something someone did- or even tell the truth, but shipping two characters is never a reason to run someone out of fandom.
I am sure that a good chunk of antis are likely either young or new to fandom, and also misinformed.
But some of them are malicious. Some of them hate people who think differently from them, and that those people must be run out of fandom, and if possible, their lives ruined.
So. What can you do to not be an anti?
Well, the very first thing is not harass someone who does fandom differently from you. Maybe they ship a different ship. Maybe they like a character you can't stand. Maybe they like stories that trigger you. That doesn't give you a reason to harass them. That doesn't give you a reason to suicide bait.
Then. Block and move on.
Now, I know I'm not perfectly supportive of all characters and ships. I have characters and ships I absolutely loathe. You know what I do?
I sometimes rant about them on my own tumblr. I sometimes rant about them to my friends. I avoid their shippers/fans. I even occasionally block people who like them so much all they talk about its that. I have a couple of tags I use that indicate my hatred of a certain character. But I keep the character/ship hate in my own blog.
You know what I don't do?
Tell the shippers/fans they're evil. I don't try to make them stop. I refuse to support it, but I don't stop it. I don't take the character/ship hate to the people who enjoy the characters/ships.
That's what a pro-shipper is. Live and Let Live.
And that's why I can't be objective. Because there are people out there who don't want to Let Live.
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The idw discourse is so bad, I feel caught in the middle because each time I express how bad the storytelling is, in a new issue or how off model the characters are drawn, idw fans gang up on me. But on the other hand I don't want to be associated with the people who think think it's funny to tweet how Flynn should die or make weird assumptions about Stanley being a bad person ? Like that's weird and cruel. Hate their work not them as people.
I just decided to pretend the comic doesn't exist and it helps lol.
I'm sorry that happened to you. Idk if anyone else will tell you that, but I will, because I know how much it sucks.
One time, I saw a guy on Twitter blame us for his inability to criticize the book in what he believed was a much more "balanced" manner without getting harassed by people.
Digest that for a moment. It's our fault for other people's reaction to us. And instead of rubbing his brain cells together for a moment and questioning the reasons why this knee-jerk reaction occurs, or even reflecting on the fact that it occurs at all and perhaps realizing that the call is coming from inside the house, he fell back on old biases and decided it was the haters who were wrong.
The mental gymnastics on display here are unreal.
In this case, I think people are stumbling into the usual fallacious trap of assuming both sides carry equal weight, and thus believe that defaulting to a position of "neutrality" makes them morally superior somehow.
That's kind of what I hate about this fandom - the utter superciliousness. The rotten shit we as a fandom get up to (and no, being a little snarky in a reblog does not count as harassment) while proclaiming love and light uwu. Be nice to everyone, except those freaks over there.
"Neutrality" is in scare quotes here because it's not true neutrality, but a way of posturing to the in-group that you're not Like Us. As demonstrated by my Twitter-user anecdote, people around here don't want to say anything hater-flavored because it risks intense ostracization. That's why you have people jumping down your throat for presenting even mild criticisms. It'd be pathetic if it weren't so annoying.
I'm not talking about people who let well enough alone. I'm talking about centrists who sneer "both sides are bad," as if by distancing themselves from the situation in a smug manner, they're declaring themselves more enlightened than the rest of us.
Honestly, the other side should be just as insulted, but they're not, because this attitude only helps them in the long run.
In reality, this is more like the fishhook situation centrists have with antis vs. proshippers. Saying "this whole thing is stupid" really only benefits antis because they now have grounds to reply, "Yes, this IS stupid, don't you think proshippers are crazy for being upset at something so trivial?" while conveniently omitting the part where antis routinely send proshippers death threats and other heinous material.
Look at it from this angle: the most concrete harm I have seen their side say they've suffered is a deep discomfort and estrangement from the book. Which, yeah. That sucks. But it's also kinda on you to just click away if it makes you uncomfortable.
On the other hand, I have had legitimate crying fits because of horrible messages I received and have told people multiple times about the anon who mocked my recently-deceased mom. Which, unlike clicking away from a blog, I had no choice but to see sometimes because I was still naive enough to believe people would behave themselves in my inbox. In fact, a mutual were recently discussing our anxieties over retaliation should IDW be cancelled. There's stuff about this that you just don't want to think about because dwelling on it will freak you out.
"Both sides are bad" stings, especially in light of knowing the measures I have taken to walk on eggshells and draw proper boundaries. I literally cannot know if someone in this fandom will consider my explanations harassment and dogpiling, so I try not to reblog with commentary. On the reblogging site.
Reflect on how fucked-up that is, to feel uncomfortable adding a tag to someone's fanart because you're worried they might realize you're One of Them(tm) and shun you on that basis alone.
I won't sit here and say I've always been perfect in my conduct, but at the same time, it's just the infuriating experience of double standards all the way down. Somehow it never occurs to them that if I held them to the same standard they hold me, I could call them all out on intellectual dishonesty for refusing to engage with any of our points no matter how calmly or clearly stated because "lol ur just a hater," and tar them with the same brush as those who sent me death threats.
But ofc, things don't work out like that in the calculus of Le Sonic Discourse. It's just a rotten experience to the core.
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I think this is a space safe enough to say this
I was an Anon on Chai's blog known as Anti Anon and I am angry at myself for the whole situation.
I knew Chai was a proshipper and despite all my morals I turned a blind eye to it for a few reasons
Chai didn't seem like a completely horrible person like most proshipper and I remember them saying that proshipper meant something slightly different on tumblr. Chai also said they were a victim of CSA so it didn't make sense for me to assume they were like the usual fuckers i encounter in the proshipper crowd
I turned against my morals for another reason. They were also the only one documenting shit in the critical community and had contacts with Vivziepop's victims. And those victims were more important than Chai being a proshipper and I believed Chai wasn't a bad person for some reason or at least doing a good thing. I was mainly worried that Chai's status as a proshipper would hurt the victims testimonies but again my mind didnt fully register that despite the good Chai was still a bad person.
The major critical blogs kept interacting with him
The Toothless and Hiccup stuff from what i saw came off as them being legitimately an idiot and equating DND dragon lore with dreamworks not someone who had legitimately thought bestiality and zoophilia was ok
I have stated in the past in asks that i was never looking to be besties with Chai because of the proshipper shit I wanted to keep a distance. I honestly only checked the blog periodically and I am cursed to believe the best in everyone even people i despise. I only checked the blog periodically really so I never saw the other shit.
But after seeing the shit that was revealed recently I fucking hate how stupid and blind I was. I was so obsessed with the victims deserving justice it overrode my morals.
But the shit that I saw in the screenshot plus Chai's response... I'm done with that shit. If Chai had been a dumbass it's one thing but... this isn't being a dumbass. This is vile is the absolutely most mild thing I can say.
Yeah but I think after all that it's very obvious I need a break from Vivziepop and the critical community for my own health and to never be such an idiot again.
You're completely valid and this is a safe place to share this anon. I 100% understand you, I believe all the reasons you gave is what a lot of people have done and now feel after this whole situation, I personally relate to what you have said cos I too interacted with Chai, many critical accounts did. I believe we all trusted Chai because of how kind they were, the info they brought forward on Viv and what they shared on their life experience dispite the some evidence and talks about them. That info brought forward on Chai I personally did not know of, and really saw word of mouth testimonies on Chai & that obsessed Chai account on twitter.
But I digress. You're not a bad person, you're just human like everyone who saw good in Chai dispite your moral beliefs.
You're not an idiot ok 🌸. Also I agree with you in stepping back from Viv and the critical community, your health and mental health should come 1st 💜. Wish you only the best anon.
I won't be tagging this post with anything 🌟
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Hey it’s so called this morning’s anon back with more things to say I suppose…
I supposed I wanted to elaborate on some things, I know you said you didn’t wanna start discourse but I really wanted to elaborate on what I meant by that proshipping comment. The term proship, from what I heard, has gone from let people ship what they want and if you don’t like don’t look to… This person is a disgustingly vile subhuman and their death should be celebrated.
Funnily enough I openly ship problematic stuff, but I constantly over complicate things to prove that I’m still better than ‘those guys’, to say that I have morality and ‘they’ don’t… But it’s so fucking exhausted. My life wasn’t good and moral and pure so why does my art have to be?
I’m sick of fearing I’ll have someone genuinely threaten my life because I cope differently than them. Ironically I used to get mad when people say it was their coping mechanism, calling it a shitty excuse to be a whatever [You can insert all kinds of fun and degrading terms there] and yet… I was doing the same thing.
So yeah… I don’t like everything but I’m realizing that everything has its place and if that makes me a proshipper then fuck it I guess I’m a proshipper
[After reading all those kind messages I wanted some way to reveal myself because surprise you actually know who I am! But I wasn’t sure how to do that without outing myself so openly… I read your Hevor fic and told you about it on Discord, it’s the only thing we ever discussed. So yeah if you manage to figure me out based on that alone then congratulations! Purity culture is ruining my life so bad I can’t even say my own name! ;3]
fdjskfksdngksjdhk talk about efficient secret codes lmao. Yes I understand now 😄
That's pretty much what happened. "Proship" started as a countermovement to the "anti" culture budding around 2016 who were all like "Sheith is actually incest because they're like brothers and that's gross guys!!!!", and at first it meant simply "ship and let ship", but then it got twisted into meaning "someone who enjoys problematic ships/ships with incest, pedophilia and/or abuse", which inevitably leads to "this person has Something Wrong with them and they're a Bad Person who Hurts people like me with their Degenerate Art! Pedo alert pedo alert! PUNISHMENT FOR A THOUSAND YEARS".
The problem is that "enjoys" means a lot of things :^) there is a difference between "aww they're so cute <3", "welp this is a kink now", and "wow this would be incredibly fucked up but I am intrigued to explore this story". But nuance is not allowed, apparently.
(fun fact: I don't really go through proship blogs because I swear they all ship sibling incest. I hate sibling ships lmao, especially when they're wholesome. But of course they're all in the "will accept anything" community, after being pretty much shunned and painted as horrible abusers who deserve to be hurt and worse - and just because I don't want to see those ships, that doesn't mean I think they're bad people who condone real-life abuse. So yeah, proship is not about having all the grossest ships in the world, you can be exclusively into the most vanilla M/F ships ever and still think "yo do what you want I'll respect you from a distance")
I also hear similar stories like yours, of people who twist themselves into pretending to be antis and be morally "purer" than others when in private they were doing the same things they were insulting others for, just with tons of shame and denial. Not judging you and I'm happy when people realize that this behavior is harmful, definitely more than being into the Problematic lol... I'm just disappointed and frustrated that the internet culture has come to this. I reiterate my points about surrounding yourself with friends who don't make you feel like you have to walk on eggshells.
Also real talk: you don't really have to psychoanalyze yourself. Maybe your tastes are tied to an easily identifiable reason, or maybe they aren't or the reason goes too deep to explore without outside help. In any case, it doesn't matter. You don't have to justify yourself in any way, let alone showing to everyone the "I'm Coping With Trauma" badge in the hopes they will forgive you - because it doesn't work. It's never about the mental health of victims, it's about "i feel icky and i don't want to :("
Disgust is not harm. You (general) have every right to be disgusted by something - I myself am not above it :P But it's not a personal attack against you, and it's your responsibility to walk away and coping with your feelings in private.
#important#proship#again the discourse can get way too complicated and nuanced#and these may feel like milquetoast stances lol#but... guess they're not and some people really have to be told 'please don't suicide bait someone because they ship a 17 yo and a 19 yo'#something something funny how antis will scream about the normalization of abuse and incest#when they have normalized threatening real people with real harm in a quirky way
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Don’t be surprised when you start losing a lot of followers for being an anti
Why do you care so much abt other people’s ships anyways
BAHAHAHAHAHA UR FUNNY LETS TEAR YOU APART SHALL WE?
What a vain and shallow assumption you are under for believing that I care about how many followers I have. I do not care for the quantity of my followers, only the quality💀 but I have well over 1K followers and they keep growing if you are worried or something💀💀
And why do I care about other people's ships? Well, I'd love to support my mutuals's ships because I think they're cute but since the context is me being an "anti" I assume you are talking about people who enjoy incestuous, pedophilic, and/or large age gap ships?
Because they are absolutely insane and dangerous to those who are easy to manipulate who most of the time are minors? What a ridiculous world we live in that someone is confused on why you shouldn't be glorifying incest or pedophilia.
Pro-shipping is absolutely the most chronically online take I've ever seen in my damn life.
Like few years ago, there was this post where the op wrote "William x Mimosa" and "Fuego x Noelle" I remember the Fuego x Noelle thing being a misunderstanding but my god was that blog torn apart. Where is that energy now folks?
"It's only fiction! I want to explore these dynamics in fiction!"
Absolutely! I encourage exploring taboo concepts in fiction! But you are portraying it as something bad, right? Right?
Of course you are not!
Racism, homophobia, pedophilia, incest are all what? Say it with me: Bad.
I am not saying that people who write about them are bad, but the concepts themselves are not stuff you endorse. You don't need me to explain why they're all bad right? But if you live under a rock or in fairyland where nothing ever bad happens, let me explain.
Racism hurts people. Physically and mentally.
Homophobia hurts people. Physically and mentally.
Pedophilia hurts children. Physically and mentally.
Incest hurts children and adults. Physically and mentally.
I write about all of these topics in my fics but never have I once portrayed them in a good light. I don't pretend to ship or endorse any incest or pedophilic relationships I write. I don't portray racist and homophobic characters as good people. I write how much it hurts to be in those positions. I write about the confusion, the betrayal, the pain.
And what do I see proshippers doing on my dash? Fucking glorifying it.
I used to think, that's their thing, let them enjoy it but then I realized: There is a good reason why we shut down racists and homophobes and don't allow them safe spaces, why do we allow the same for people who FANTASIZE about disgusting things and put them on the internet.
Wake up to reality. Your behavior will make parents hide their children from you.
"What is fictious does not apply to reality!"
Are you serious my guy? Joining a fandom changed my life. Stanning Julius made me a better artist, writer, and made me more motivated to study quantum mechanics. My professors and my thesis advisors literally know of Julius because of me💀 I care so much about thinking about the underlying themes of BC and any other fiction I consume and see how it challenges my beliefs and my way of thinking. You may not consume fiction the way I do! But it most definitely affects reality💀
If you want a historical example, Harriet Beecher Stowe's "Uncle Tom's Cabin" converted many people to abolitionism because it brought attention to the horrible conditions of slavery.
And I can give you many, many, many examples about how fiction affects reality. But not in a one to one ratio. Just because I play COD or MW2 does not mean I want to pick up a gun and start shooting my friends.
"It is my coping mechanism for my trauma!"
Then book an appointment to a psychiatrist and tell them about this pro-shipping. See how that conversation would go down. Find a healthy coping mechanism. Nobody in their right mind endorses self-harm through unhealthy coping mechanisms.
To end it off, I'll say what I've said earlier,
What a luxury it must be to fantasize about incest, pedophilia and other BS like that in a positive manner when it is a nightmarish reality to many people.
I come from an ethnic culture where this is all so normal and the cycle of abuse continues. I don't want to talk about how it personally affected me because it is personal but, seek help. If you cannot, find healthy coping mechanisms. Pour all your pain out into art and writing if you must, but don't pretend for a second that it is good.
#anon#absolutely bonkers how people say this stuff LMAOO#thx for whispering🥰#tw proshitter#tw proshippers
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I hope you realize that wishing harm on others makes you the shitter
I pray for your lost soul to understand that fiction does not affect reality the way you think it does and for you to find peace
I don’t wish harm on proshippers, in fact I want them to seek help. I just think going online and posting proships is at best an unhealthy form of escapism and at worst is actively promoting r^pe, pedophilia, and other horrible things.
The thing is that a good portion of them are just completely shameless and enjoy posting about p3dophilic or incest ships. They even tend to romanticize it and make it look cute, and while yes I do recognize that this could be a way to cope with trauma, if it’s posted online then anyone can see it and be influenced by it, and if it’s dressed up and treated like every other ship, they might start to think it’s normal.
The idea that fiction can never affect reality does not hold up under any scrutiny. What if another victim saw a post made by someone (even if that someone is a victim themselves) who proships, and was then triggered by it? What if a child who did not know better saw proshipping in online spaces that they’re a part of and thought that those types of relationships were normal or even preferable, and then became more vulnerable to that kind of victimization?
It being a coping mechanism is an explanation but not a reason that someone should do it, or be able to do it for recreation online because there can be bad coping mechanisms and proshipping is one of them.
And I know that being a proshipper online is fun and I know that because I was one. I was that dumb kid who saw people proshipping, believed that since it wasn’t real it was ok, and ended up getting duped into thinking it was normal. And I’ll be the first to say it, it was fun while I was doing it. It felt like I had a community, and it was honestly a great time “pissing off antis”. But as I got older, I guess I just realized that it was wrong, and it only stopped being fun once I admitted that.
Why am I spilling my entire guts to you in the first place? To be completely honest, I don’t always want to be your ‘enemy’ as an anti, especially if you’re legitimately using this stuff to cope with trauma and don’t know what else to do. I want every proshipper to seek out other, better, coping mechanisms. I honestly do think therapy would be beneficial for things like this and I definitely think some of you guys need some serious time offline.
All this to then say I honestly just think it’s kinda funny to bully proshippers. They chose to post this stuff publicly where anyone can see it and if they can’t handle a few insults then they could just, not post on the public platform, and do everything privately.
You don’t have more of a right to an online space just because you’re traumatized and like using a bad coping mech lol. A ton of antis are also victims so I don’t know where some of y’all get the idea that it’s only traumatized people proshipping and only people who have never been a victim or touched a mental illness with a ten foot poll who are antis.
I’m probably rambling a lot but I just have a lot to say on this topic because it’s been a part of my life for so long. But yeah back to the ask I definitely don’t want harm to come to anyone and if you got that impression I would like to dispel that now. I do think proshipping is marginally better than s3lf h^rm so there’s that ig? If you’re going to do something drastic if you can’t proship then do it if only to keep yourself safe, but that doesn’t make it ok and that doesn’t mean you don’t have to better yourself.
#also proshitters are people who think fiction can never affect reality ever so they just proship for fun and not as a coping mechanism#honestly I think the best cure for that is to just go outside#socialize#etc#but also no one should be telling anyone to kts. but it’s not only antis doing that so yk#I’ve seen proshippers bully antis out of spaces and wrongly report them just to get them banned#it is not the one way street you might think it is#but anyways just so we’re crystal clear I think ‘proshitters’ are a subgroup and not everyone is worthy of that insult#god this was a long post holy damn#if you read that entire thing I commend you tbh#don’t harm yourself. seek out professional help. start a journal maybe. etc etc
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*sees someone i follow post about welcome home*
Huh
*sees them talking about "ungrateful, horrible proshipper*
Ah. Nevermind.
Guess the block button exists for a reason 👍
In all seriousness though. I guarantee you that not every breaking the "No NSFW" boundary the creator set for Welcome Home was proship. Antis also draw NSFW, they juat happen to insist that their stuff is "morally better" most of the time.
And besides that. Proshipper doesn't mean "we think we should be allowed to draw anything we want ever" it means "we think people should be allowed to ship/draw/not ship things and not be harassed for it"
If you don't like a canon ship, we don't carw. If you love this horrible toxic relationship, we don't care. Not because we don't care about you, but because *it isn't out business*
Like
Thats the only real point of proshippwr
Its not our business, as long as youre being respectful of real people, we probably wont care.
#for the record#as a proshipper. I'm incredibly disappointed and sad that people habe ignored welcome home creators boundaries#yes its popular media but it wasn't meant to be originally and if they don't want nafw i would hope that if nothing else#people would at least keep it far out of sight from them at minimum
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the greatest trick online predators ever pulled was convincing teenagers that “people who are not cool with pedo/incest/rape/etc fanfiction” and “bullies who tell people to kill themselves over fandom” are the same singular group
#the only reason you think ‘antis’ are all horrible people is because proshippers want you to think that. there is a specific agenda there.#mean comments or callouts are not MORE dangerous than these kinds of content. many would argue the content is more harmful than harassment#obviously ‘people should like fictional things’ is an opinion everyone agrees with#but some of you LITERAL CHILDREN do not understand the extent to which normalizing some of this stuff is damaging#like it’s all hidden in the term ‘anti’ itself because like. its not short for anti shipping. its short for anti pedophilic ships#anti incest/rape/necro/zoo porn. thats way harder to publicly be against. so they just shorten it to ‘anti’#which obviously makes them the Bad Guys#anti means bad and pro means good so obviously we should all be pro right? we’re all good mature people who hate harassment right?#please god consider why certain people are so obsessed with associating criticism with bullying#anti#proship#proshipper
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(please don't publish if this isn't anonymous for some reason)
Recently I've felt really unwelcome in the proship community (and leftist communities as a whole) because people keep talking about how it's stupid to have your main hobbies revolve around the consumption of media, especially media that isn't considered "high art"
People act like if I prefer to spend my free time watching YouTube videos and playing harvest moon games that must mean I don't have any critical thinking skills, or that I'm not smart... But really it's just a combination of horrible chronic pain, and neurodivergence/mental illness. I barely have enough energy to function day to day, I just want something soothing to do with my free time. But I constantly feel ashamed of myself for not being able to spend my time reading novels or learning a useful skill.
I hate seeing proshippers talk about how antis only watch kids shows and don't read books, because that describes me too even though I'm a proshipper and I'm completely capable of thinking critically and understanding complex ideas. I just don't have the energy to be reading novels, even getting out of bed is difficult most days and I'm already so depressed that consuming media with a darker tone can put me in a dangerous mental place.
I guess it just feels like proshippers of all people should understand that the media you do or don't consume doesn't necessarily mean anything about you as a person. You can read a ton of complicated novels but never develope the skills to have more than a surface level understanding, or you can be completely capable of complex critical thinking but choose to spend your time watching gravity falls. Someone watching "basic" shows doesn't make them stupid, it doesn't mean anything about that person other than they enjoy those shows.
I don't know... I'm sorry to rant... Maybe I've just had bad luck with people... I'm just so tired... There's a ton of ableism coming from antis but I feel like proshippers can also be pretty ableist too... There's just no escaping it... I just want to be left alone to enjoy the few things in my life that make me happy without people telling me I'm stupid for not spending what little energy I have on things that make me miserable...
.
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Hello been pondering about whether or not I should post this since I haven't been vocal about it but I think my mutuals/tumblr friends/followers deserve to know and decide if they're okay with it:
I do not participate in fandom discourse/shipping discourse/whatever it's called and I never will. The reason for it being: I cannot agree with either side. I am on Twitter, too, and I see how the discourse there looks like; I don't want to participate in it.
(Warning: mentions of p*dophilia and inc*st in the upcoming text)
To clarify: I only believe in consuming media with a critical eye. The claim that fiction doesn't affect reality in any way, something that proshippers love to use in their argument, is baseless and untrue, especially concerning teens and minors who have not entirely developed a critical thinking ability. I can't support the way horrifying themes like inc*st and p*dophilia are seen in, or perpetuated in, a positive likeness and considered as completely harmless in every single way, and no, I will never support such content nor want to come anywhere close to it.
However, I do not agree with the opposing side, either. As already mentioned, I spent a certain time on Twitter; I have seen what the shipping discourse has turned into. Something that started as a critical debate on harmful propaganda, evicting offenders from fandom presence and importance of consuming media carefully has turned into driving young people to suicide over baseless claims, free harassment, and complete disregard of the fact that internet users are, in fact, human beings. The way accusations over the internet had been watered down to the point where half the people don't take them seriously anymore because they're not used properly is scary. It's worrying. It's weird. It's so little about the genuine harmful themes (re:aforementioned) anymore: now exploring anything that isn't goody-two-shoes mentality in fiction is a ticket to being harassed. It's turning into another "video games cause violence" where, instead of focusing on how harmful themes in fiction can be used to endanger people, the battle is turning towards anything bad ever portrayed in media.
My point being: the extremes through which this discourse has escalated are sickening and I, for one, will not take any of my time to participate in it.
Be careful in fandoms. Large internet spaces allow horrible and harmful people to get through to their victims, oftentimes using so-called "fictional content that doesn't harm anyone" to do it. I know. I was manipulated myself.
On the other hand, if you are an adult person who believes people cannot consume media without turning into a glorifier of every dark fictional theme irl, then the media simply is not for you. A person with developed critical thinking can, and should, explore fiction without mixing it up with reality. (Again, I don't agree that themes such as inc*st and p*dophilia fall under this category). Young teens and minors do not have said way of thinking developed yet: so TAG. YOUR. DAMN. WORKS. Tagging is important. It saves people from being harmed by content they don't wish to see.
Sorry for the long post, I was thinking about this and felt like I wanted to say my point on it; after all, I've been more active on tumblr lately, enjoying the company of my mutuals and I want anyone who follows this blog to know where I stand with this. At the end, I hope for my point to be respected, I see harm in both of these mentalities and don't wish to be a part of either of them or this discourse at all. If you want to know where I stand on human rights, equality, danger of propaganda and anti-bigotry, feel free to take a look at my blog, everything is there to see and I hope to never arrive in a situation where I need to explain what I think about fandom discourse, because this is the only post about it I'm ever going to make.
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okay idk if i want anyone reblogging this bc i don't want the General Tumblr Population ™ getting their hands on it, but like... is anyone else bothered by the way people treat the whole "anti" thing. i'll explain
i feel like distilling all of the discussion around those things into one single label ("anti" vs "anti-anti" or "proshipper" etc) has made a lot of the important things get lost in translation. the terms have been defined and redefined by so many people with their own very biased takes, that often these terms no longer mean anything practical to me.
for example, some people think of "antis" as people who are completely against artists exploring darker topics in any way, shape, or form, and who are dedicated to eradicating anything that isn't fluff from the internet. on the other hand, some people define "anti" as simply someone uncomfortable with pedophilic and/or incestuous ships. these are very different definitions for the same word, around which some very volatile discussions have been built. i'm inclined to be wary of people who firmly declare themselves "anti-anti" or whatever the fuck, but it can also be difficult to tell based only on that term if they mean 1) they ship things that make me uncomfortable, or 2) just think artists should be able to make art about complicated and heavy subjects.
i don't look too far into the whole debate because to be honest it's horribly draining, but i don't doubt there are people out there who call themselves antis and who really are just out to take down any kind of dark content whatsoever, regardless of how well tagged it may be. i guess what i'm saying is that i think there are a lot of people on both sides who concentrate more on the labels rather than the ideas themselves, so in some cases it's a little bit of a case of "making up a guy and then getting mad at him".
also, i feel like for some reason we've forgotten that there is a very well established history of people on the internet making troll accounts/posts pretending to be someone of a certain group, just so that they could make fun of said group and paint them as unreasonable. why do so many people forget that? i keep thinking back to that twitter account that was being shared a lot somewhat recently, that was basically a cartoonishly exaggerated portrayal of what some people think when they say "anti", of course with some good ol' aphobia and various other bigotries thrown in for good measure (why do you people spend so much of your time thinking about us and getting mad?). and so many people were eating that shit up, ready to believe it was real right away, possibly because it confirmed something they already believed. i know there are a lot of genuine batshit insane posts on the internet, but it seems a little like some of the anti/proship debate might be an extension of that. accounts like that one twitter are just an updated version of, say, the oppa homeless style post and others like it that birthed the image of the "tumblr sjw". someone might point out an artist's portrayal of a relationship between a 25 year old and a 14 year old seems to romanticize and ignore the abusive dynamic and they find it gross, and someone else might paint that "anti" statement as someone trying to "censor" art. and then they tell someone else that an anti is someone who wants anything they don't like removed from media altogether. obviously that ending statement sounds ridiculous, so it'd be easy to conclude based on that that "antis" must be irrational and overly sensitive; immature. but a lot of context is lost.
(also there's a lot to be said in the way of criticism ≠ censorship i think, but this post is already kind of long)
#basically take every post you see online with a grain of salt bc again. u don't know who's behind it or why they're making it#and also i think we need to be more specific than just throwing around these words that have become almost useless if we want to like#actually have any kind of meaningful discussion lmao#but of course this is the internet and many people are not interested in that. i know#but a guy can dream right#finielspeaks#also if u wanna reply to this/send an ask about it or whatever that's fine#i don't mind that and i'd like to hear people's thoughts#i just don't rlly want the post spreading to the wild wastelands of The Discourse#idk how coherent this is or if i worded things right so#if someone replies and it seems they've misunderstood i'll try and explain better
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Why I'm "neutral" on the Great Shipping Debate
(LONG ASF and kinda disorganized because I wrote it at 2 am)
Do whatever you want with this post. Scroll past without reading, reblog it, get mad at me over it, unfollow, block, whatever. I don’t care. Just understand that I’m not required to entertain your counterpoints just as you’re not required to entertain mine.
I don't put myself on either side of the great shipping debate because I just don't think it matters as much as people on both sides think it does. And also because I've seen both sides take their respective arguments to absurd degrees. You've got "antis" claiming a relationship between a 30-year-old and a 40-year-old is pedophilia, and on the other hand, you've got "proshippers" acting like they're being oppressed when people talk about what makes them uncomfortable. There's reasonable people on both sides and good points on both sides but I'd never fully ally myself with either because of the nutcases that for the most part aren't disowned by the rest of their groups.
I honestly think writing callout posts and reporting people who create skeevy fictional content is like crying wolf, it takes resources, time, and energy away from the search for the people who produce and consume the Real Deal (which I will always believe is at least a thousand times worse to create or consume than any fictional imitation of it)
YET. People who create and/or consume fictional skeevy content should not be exempt from criticism. No one ever truly should be, that's how you get things like echo chambers and, I dunno, dictatorships. I don't think telling someone to kill themselves is acceptable behavior, but I have to wonder why people who enjoy content others find highly triggering are often so thin-skinned. You'd think they'd be able to handle more criticism than the average internet-user, and maybe at one point this was the case, but recently it seems like these people can't even handle the thought of someone being made uncomfortable by their work. I feel like if you're going to make that sort of thing, and make it your whole online personality, you ought to be willing to deal with the fallout. I am, as a writer who doesn't even dabble in most dark subject matter beyond the standard death and injury seen in vanilla content, prepared to deal with the potential fallout of people Not Liking That, so considering you're prepared to write things that will upset far more people, why aren't you?
Ultimately I hate internet conflict these days, so I don't engage in debate with these people and I don't bust into their inboxes to tell them they offended me, because frankly I don't think they care (and honestly I don't really think they HAVE to), and I'm never in the mood to deal with the argument that would almost definitely ensue. But I do find myself going "that's weird as hell bro" before blocking. Personally, I think if you want to tell these people they're weird, or speak about it on your own blog with no intent to actually reach them, you're not a terrible person. You're not a mean nasty "anti" for being uncomfortable in your own space. And frankly I don't think these people need protection in the same way that actual marginalized people do. Sorry, but being into loli girls doesn't make you a marginalized person. If you want to do that sort of thing, fine I guess, but don't act like the poor helpless victim when people feel uncomfortable around you.
People shouldn't be literally beaten to death for wearing ahegao hoodies in public, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with asking them to leave an event or space (or to change their clothes) if it's upsetting enough people. People shouldn't be told to kill themselves because they get off to 600-year-old anime girls who look 5, but there's nothing wrong with telling them to cut that shit out or leave your server. If you allow literally everyone into a space, eventually you'll be left with only the least pleasant, because they'll wind up driving everyone else away. Sometimes it's just better for everyone if certain people leave a space and create their own. And that goes for everything, not just skeevy fictional stuff.
That being said, the solution is never to outright ban certain topics, because that just results in things being posted without tags or warnings, which often makes things even worse than they would have been without a ban. (Just look at this website's laughably bad handling of an nsfw ban, for example. You've still got people posting nsfw content, just without tags or proper warnings now. Oh and bots. Lots and lots of bots posting links that will definitely give you a virus, steal your financial and/or account information, or both.) The fact is respectable content creators know to properly tag and warn their potential audiences, so banning content from being properly tagged just winds up getting rid of the respectable ones.
Long-winded stream-of-consciousness rant aside, these are my fundamental thoughts on the Great Shipping Debate. I am not going to pin this, I am not going to tag it so people on either side can find me and tell me why I'm wrong and also a horrible person for not Taking A Side. I'm just gonna put it out there and let it be. Liberal use of the block button is your greatest tool in comfort and safety. Use it without remorse. It's not like a report, anyway, all it does is prevent either of you from having to interact. And that's pretty cool in my book.
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Not to be that person but I love their little UWU DNIs don’t interact with me pro shippers. It’s basically a shining glistening sign that screams avoid me. Like all antis at this point unless they bury their head in the sand should know they have had more abusers and rapists out themselves and have done more evil shit that even Incels can attest to and still being like no your bad because fictional titties just tells me I’m dodging a metaphorical 30000000000 fucking bullets. If you can stay with the community where Deadass a bitch said it’s okay I raped someone because at least I’m better than a pro ship then keep your walls and stay far the fuck away from me. I don’t like abuse or rape apologism so yea thanks for letting me know where you sit.
Personally I think its perfectly valid to not want certain people to interact with you. I personally don’t MIND antis interacting with me, as long as they are civil but radfems are a complete no, you get me. Setting boundaries is great its when setting boundaries becomes less setting boundaries and more insult that i have problems.
If this is about the post I made about which side i’m on, I personally would rather be a part of the group who did not send death threats so much to a 15 year old they posted a suicide note and logged off. If you have to fake your death to get away from harrassment that is horrible and something we need to be addressed.
Speaking of Addressing bad things the callout culture of our community is just as bad as antis. calling out is not a bad thing of itself its when its not about protecting people but instead harrassment and fearmongering.
The one i think of right now is tiny-space-robot. I do not support their beliefs at all but i also do not support making a post using a single screenshot and mostly fearmongering. i have already stated my beliefs on this topic and how i think they are definitely misinformed but i think they got the right idea however it is too nuanced its no longer grey its a mix of different colors that its turning brown and muddy. I do believe warning about those beliefs are okay but the amount of harrassment they got was horrible. of course i’m only an observer and do not know everything but i will always believe people can change. And change is through education. Education and support are the way to go to bring about change, support of the change you are making and support of allowing you to make mistakes.
Its not hard to believe that if i told every single bad thing i ever did i would be ostricized by the pro-ship community. We aren’t a great family and not all of us are good.
But thats why there is no such thing as a “community” as i think lot of people are thinking. no two people will have the same ideals or reasons for those ideals.And thats okay. A community is there to help you start finding smaller communities and friend groups. Its not hard to think that one can be in many communities.
Proshippers are not perfect and i can’t comment to much on anti communites as I have not interacted with them head on for years. But despite these imperfections the core beliefs of proshipping i believe to. And its valid if you perfer the core beliefs of antis.
My critic of antis is the way of going about expressing those beliefs. I don’t truly believe being an anti is bad. Theres more nuance there. In a way i could get behind antis core beliefs too.
I would love to talk about the glorification of pedophilia, incest and abuse in fanworks and how certain things should probably be handled with care. However due to how our community is, which i’m going to be honest is thanks to antis, we are basically not allowed to critique any form of media without being called antis.
Look sometimes bad people make good points, and that is why we have nuance. But like i said too much nuance and its no longer nuance, its harmful. I’d love to talk about how our community hides behind “nuance” to promote harmful ideals either unknowningly or knowingly.
Yet I spent all this time critcing the proship commuinity and yet I think its better than anti comunities? Yep. Because ultimately I have made many great friends here and learned a lot about myself. I talk for hours about Shigadeku on a shigadeku discord and I talk about my follishness. I made friends and lost friends and i really do not think i would be where i am now if it was not for the proship community. Sure maybe some bad things happened becasue i was proship but so what. I could say that about a lot of things. The pro-ship community honestly aligns with my needs better than anything and i love it. And I think we, as a community, can one day grow to talk properly about the dangers of nuance, the one strike your out mentality and how antis are not the scum of the earth (some are, but not all)
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