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silverwhittlingknife · 4 months

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hi Silver! o/ because that fanart made me wonder - would you happen to know when/where Dick's stuffed elephant plush Zitka turns up in the comics?

GREETINGS CAM <3333 THAT ART WAS SO CUTE

Yeah, I think your instincts are right - it's a truly adorable bit of transformative fandom, but I'm 95% percent sure it's not comics canon. Barbara has canon plushies, but I don't think anyone else does.

I got kinda invested in the investigation (it's hard to prove a negative!) and I ended up typing out an entire History of Elinore/Zitka, so, uh, if you're curious, meet me below the cut for:

Where does Elinore / Zitka - the animal - appear in comics?

Did Dick ever have a stuffed elephant toy in comics?

Where does Elinore / Zitka appear in comics?

We're gonna go in chronological order!

Dick's circus elephant friend was first created for practical reasons: in Batman 436, Marv Wolfman does a big expanded flashback to Dick's circus backstory as a way to subtly show us Tim before officially introducing him (so that we can have a technically-solvable mystery-of-Tim's-identity in LPoD). In this comic, there's an elephant named Elinore who loves Dick:

Aww. Such a cute elephant!

Batman 436 comes out in August 1989. New Titans 60 comes out a few months later, in November, and guess what? When Dick visits the circus, he is suddenly surprised by an unexpected blast from the past! It turns out that even though it's been years, Elinore still remembers him!

Here's the part where Elinore remembers Dick:

SUCH a cute elephant. I love her.

(Guess who else still remembers Dick even though it was so long ago. Guess which other character is about to be an unexpected blast from the past. Guess which character Elinore is directly paralleling guess guess guess sorry everything is about Dick and Tim in my mind but I can focus I swear)

Four years later, in 1993, Batman: The Animated Series retells Dick's origin story. They like and keep Wolfman's elephant, but they change her name to Zitka:

Wolfman doesn't return to the elephant beyond those two appearances, and a few years down the line, New Titans gets cancelled and Wolfman's not writing Dick anymore anyway. So the animal gets abandoned for a while, until Devin Grayson, a fan of both Wolfman and B:tAS, revives the Wolfman-era Titans team in JLA/Titans and then the ongoing series Titans 1999.

Grayson then brings back the elephant in a flashback to Dick's past in Titans 16 (Jun 2000), where she imports the B:tAS name. Sometimes I'm skeptical of TV-to-comics imports, but honestly, I endorse this one. You lose the alliteration, which is a shame, but IMO Zitka is a better elephant name than Elinore.

Here's Dick with the newly-christened Zitka in Titans 16:

Grayson also briefly references the elephant in Gotham Knights 20 and - in a final angsty callback - in Nightwing 88 (Feb 2004), where Zitka tries futilely to comfort Dick in the midst of his trauma conga line:

... And... honestly, I think that's it for comic appearances? The two Wolfman comics plus the three Grayson comics.

Both Wolfman and Grayson are writing multiple titles - Batman, New Titans, Titans, Gotham Knights, and Nightwing between the two of them, spanning a big chunk of Dick's post-Crisis canon - and both writers use the elephant for heartwarming moments of nostalgia, which means if you're doing a post-Crisis readthrough for Dick, Elinore/Zitka feels memorable. But I don't think she actually shows up that much.

For post-2011, I am not as well-informed - throwing this out to the dash? anyone know? - but I feel like Zitka the heartwarming symbol of Dick's heartwarming circus past is, uh, thematically very at odds with the Court of Owls evil!circus vibes, so my instinct is that this story element was almost certainly dropped in the reboot.

Did Dick ever have a stuffed elephant toy in comics?

In WFA, yes; in main comics continuity, no. Technically, I have not read every comic ever published, so I could be wrong!! But I don't think so.

Below, find my rambling reasoning on the tonal vibes of pre-Crisis, post-Crisis, and post-2011, and why this particular story element doesn't seem right to me for the first two.

Pre-Crisis (...okay, mostly the Silver Age): stuffed animal, yes or no?

tl;dr no, requires too much background knowledge on the part of the reader, plus the elephant wasn't a thing until later

Elinore doesn't get created until post-Crisis, but also just generally, pre-Crisis callbacks are more along the lines of this reference in Batman 129 (published in 1960), where, wow, Batman and Robin are hunting jewel thieves - and it turns out Robin recognized this strongman! BUT HOW?!

The comic goes on to recap Dick's entire origin story in flashback, on the assumption that you may not know it.

(BTW, if you'd like to know more about Haly's Circus throughout the years, nightwingology has a great post here summarizing a lot of fun plotlines and characters!)

Basically: Silver Age comics are very self-consciously episodic and kid-friendly; they're not generally gonna do overly-elaborate callbacks because they don't know what comics their kid readers may have randomly picked up or remember.

By the time of post-Crisis, comic books were being written for an adult audience buying from the direct market, i.e. readers who are collecting whole runs & don't need or want Dick's origin story to be recapped to us in full every time it's referenced. That's why in post-Crisis, we get stuff like "hey, neat, this particular soda brand is getting mentioned in several different books!!" or "in order to understand this story arc, buy SIXTEEN DIFFERENT COMICS in FIVE DIFFERENT RUNS and read them ALL ACCORDING TO A NUMBERED ORDER and also you better be following the individual plotlines and recognize these five minor characters who we don't bother to introduce!! Good luck!!" But the elaborate post-Crisis plotlines - and subtler worldbuilding like a stuffed animal callback to Dick's backstory - don't make a lot of story sense UNLESS you're imagining your readers as completionist adult fans.

So IMO a stuffed animal wouldn't be a pre-Crisis thing unless it was The Episodic Story Of the Week, and I don't think a stuffed animal is action-adventure-y enough for the fast-paced storytelling of the Silver Age. (Unless it, like, came to life and tried to eat you or something.)

Post-Crisis: stuffed animals, yes or no?

tl;dr: no, Dick's a manly tough guy, he's not gonna have a stuffed animal, that'd be lame, like something Tim might do

Part of the edgy grimdark adult vibes in 80s/90s comics is that some characters who used to be kinda silly & goofy & lighthearted - like Batman and Robin - get reimagined as Serious and Angsty and Edgy in a Tough Cool Manly Brooding Way. This massively affects characterization for Bruce, Dick, and Bruce and Dick's relationship.

(I obviously love this change & love the tense Bruce-and-Dick interactions, but plenty of fans of the earlier fluffy comics really disliked the edgy retcons of Miller / Wolfman / Starlin / et al.)

The upshot is that post-Crisis is a period when you could have a recurring reference like a stuffed elephant, but you wouldn't have a stuffed elephant, not for Dick. I think a toy like that would be too cutesy / childish / effeminate to give a male character in post-Crisis, unless you were poking fun at him.

Now, you could probably let Tim have a stuffed animal, because Tim is sometimes cool but also sometimes a tryhard loser who is faking being cool and not entirely pulling it off (see e.g. the Robin comic where he practices tough-guy faces in the mirror, or the Teen Titans comic where Conner discovers his cringy Enya CD, or when he's fanboying over Connor and it's awkward, etc etc.). A stuffed animal would be deeply embarrassing, and you'd have to be careful to compensate by having Tim do something cool afterward - but Tim's character concept allows for "he's kind of a loser sometimes."

But Dick isn't!! In post-Crisis, Dick's a tough / impressive / "cool guy" character, the kind of guy anyone would want to be, even in the flashbacks where he's Robin, and even in the stories where he's more lighthearted than angsty. It'd be kinda lame for Dick to have a stuffed elephant, so he wouldn't. I feel like Dick would be more likely to poke fun at it if someone had one, like when he's making fun of Wally for liking the Hardy Boys. Dick could have a Batman action figure, at most, and if he had one he would have it ironically.

Basically: in post-Crisis, a male character hugging a stuffed elephant feels more likely to be a punchline to me, not something poignant. (Even with Tim, Tim could have an embarrassing stuffed animal, but he couldn't hug it when sad - that's too far. Maybe Booster Gold might do this. Probably he wouldn't, but spiritually, he would. Sorry Booster ilu! <3)

Instead, Dick instinctively deals with his inner turmoil like the TORTURED ACTION HERO he is: by punching things and brooding and yelling and joining the mob and sleeping on rooftops and going on obsessive secret missions and acquiring Angsty Stubble!! Just like Batman!

(Technically I don't know if Bruce ever joined the mob but you know he would.)

Anyway as you know this is my favorite continuity and I am poking fun affectionately, but uh, yeah sdfsfdsfs. No stuffed animals.

Post-2011 / Infinite Frontier / Wayne Family Adventures: stuffed animals, yes or no?

tl;dr it's in WFA! Probably not anywhere else, but it could be.

Post-2011 stuff tends to be cutesier overall, most of all in the current Infinite Frontier era. So I don't feel like this would be tonally out-of-line with IF comics. Taylor tends to go for more meme-y references rather than fanfic references, though.

So the obvious best fit is WFA, which is aiming for a rough approximation of Silver Age family-friendly vibes - wholesome, episodic plots, Teaching Good Moral Lessons For The Youth, etc. - plus lots of Easter eggs for fanfic readers and some comic references.

And look, here we are:

Aww.

Whew - that's everything I could find!

Anyway as you can probably tell, I LOVE the elephant, so this was a very entertaining rabbit hole to go down, thank you <3

#dick grayson #anyone with more info feel free to chime in & we can crowdsource <3 #i do think the toy elephant is awfully cute though <3 #total digression but i was thinking about it as i was writing:#i'm fascinated by the ways that the post-crisis batboys & their stories can intersect with 90s masculinity and all its issues with stoicism #and i'm pro-queering and gender-bending - 90s comics were a total boys' club so i think it's neat that transformative fandom isn't #but i do love 90s masculinity and All Its Issues too & one of the things i find compelling about the dick-tim-bruce trio #& especially dick's place in it - is the unspoken hierarchy whereby bruce is manlier than dick & dick is manlier than tim #and so dick's in the middle as this somewhat softer-character who aspires to be a harsher & more stoic & ultimate manly-man character #caught in the middle between robin & batman & what each role represents #and like. batman is both manhood & the only desirable thing to be AND ALSO it represents this immense narrowing of possibility #because so much of stereotypical masculinity is about reducing the range of emotions you're allowed to have or express #and dick is both incredibly conflicted about bruce AND wants to be just like him & by extension is conflicted about masculinity writ large #so a lot of dick's interactions with tim veer between trying on a frat-boy-ish 'I'm The Manly Guy' persona vs. giving up on it #or trying on imitations of Bruce's Batman persona but also trying to backtrack out of it bc he doesn't like how it feels etc etc #ANYWAY i think what i am trying to say is that if tim had a stuffed animal dick would be entertained & poke mild fun at him #and call him 'teddy' for the next hour or something while tim got increasingly defensive about how the teddy bear was steph's #and/or about how the teddy bear was OLD and tim doesn't even care about it and also WHATEVEr i'm above this #and to an uninformed observer this might look like bullying BUT ACTUALLY #this ritual would IN FACT be very reassuring to both of them + tim would feel WAY better afterward than if dick had ignored it #because by poking fun at him dick shows he still respects tim enough to tease him thus subtextually exorcising the threat of wimpiness #plus allowing tim to defend himself & demonstrate that he can take a joke so they've both reaffirmed their masculinity to each other #& they don't have to be scared of the teddy bear and all it represents anymore #however also afterward dick would have a brief nostalgic flashback to when he was a kid & had a teddy bear & feel weird about the memory #because he would be unable to articulate to himself that what he misses is a past when he allowed himself to be vulnerable #anyway this wouldn't actually happen in comics but it's what would happen in my soul. you know.#ask tag #zitka

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acearohippo · 1 month

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I love fandoms, especially witnessing what fans take away from source material and how fans interpret it based on their experiences. Not to mention the stark difference of interaction between new fans, casual fans, experienced fans, and long-term fans.

I say this because the SVSSS fandom has continuously fascinated me in insisting in discussions that there are parallels between Shen Jiu and Luo Binghe (tell don't show), but in their fanworks, I just see parallels between Luo Binghe and Yue Qingyuan (show don't tell).

And it's not even (fully) a case where they're blending character personalities because they want what the other dynamic has, it's just how the characters are based on canon in two different timelines.

All of this to say, perhaps original draft PIDW (NOT original!PIDW nor pre!SY PIDW which are completely different) was supposed to revolve around the dynamic between SJ and YQY vs SJ and LBH. Perhaps YQY was to be the last hour mastermind, the true foil to LBH.

And fandom is just circling this idea without realising it because, once again, the unreliable narrator that is SY has already convinced this fandom that any version of SJ has to be a/the villain, regardless if it's through his own actions or baseless rumours.

Warning, run-on sentence ahead.

I don't know, mans, but it's gotta mean something that LBH and YQY have such similar life beats of being orphaned and having a tough life but remaining kind/compassionate because they had someone to live for until they didn't which left them empty until they found (or refound in YQY's case) one (1) man to obsess over in an uncomfortably intrusive way with no regards for his feelings and rejections, eventually reaching a position as the most powerful being in existence with a huge caveat that their sword is 83% of that power and is slowly killing them which did nothing to soften said man of their obsession's into showing them kindness leading to the ultimate confrontation between the two in which only one could survive and keep their obsession, not that it mattered because neither of them got to experience his feelings reciprocated, except in another timeline where the same things are happening until their obsession suddenly stops rejecting their (still intrusive) advances even if he is acting a bit silly, but hey take advantage while you can and take advantage they did because now they have that reciprocated feeling (except one still "won" as he gets to keep him for himself) and be thankful that all it took was, in their perspective, a near death fever that drastically changed his personality and most likely left him crippled in some other way, preventing their obsession from not NOT needing them anymore, all-in-all fulfilling their desire to be relied upon again, hooray! 😋😁✌🏽

In all seriousness, at the end of the day people are going to draw connections between characters that fit whatever narrative they understood from the story. SVSSS fandom just seems to be trying to convince others of one narrative while believing on a deeper level of another narrative. It's amusing and makes following the fandom fun.

#the hippo speaks #shen qingqiu #shen jiu #luo binghe #mxtx svsss #svsss #svsss fandom #yue qingyuan #i am never going to get over that the fix it for the pidw!timeline proposed by svsss #was to put its titular character through traumatic brain injury that changed his personality and scrambled his memory #all so these two overly attached men could have their feelings returned #i know that's grossly simplifying it but sometimes you gotta do that #to understand the sheer horror of what actually occurred #sj: I hate men because they've ruined me to get what they want. i will never again give men what they want.#system: well that's not gonna fly buddy so we'll just replace you with someone who will give men what they want #also system: but the kicker is your replacement won't know he's giving them what they want because he doesn't understand your trauma 😁#system cont.: so it'll actually be super romantic and just a hint traumatising here and there for when he doesn't give in #system cont.: but thats ok because he's soft so he'll bre- ahem fall for one of these men soon enough #system: and then all will be saved 🥰 just like the replacement sqh accepting his man's abuse instead of fighting it teehee 😋#telling y'all the system is a reference to ill advised fans who think being stalked is a complimemt and being abused is protective #and being gaslit is just how people talk 🥲#the hippo tags

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grxceful-ly · 1 year

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peter bringing mayday with him to do spider stuff because yeah, he had things to live for before--but now he has a child and he is going to raise this child and be there for her and maybe if she’s there, strapped to his chest, he’ll be more careful. he’ll consider his life almost as precious as hers. maybe bringing mayday to work is a precaution.

#disclaimer: it's like 2am and i don't know what i just wrote because my brain won't function enough to read it over again #i also have read like zero spiderman comics so if this doesn't make sense because canon already speaks on it #i'm sorry #atsv spoilers #spiderman: across the spiderverse #across the spiderverse #peter b parker #mayday #i am having thoughts #PLEASE BLOCK APPROPRIATE TAGS IF YOU DON"T WANNA BE SPOILED PLEASE IM BEGGING YOU #miles morales #into the spiderverse #spiderman #spiderman spoilers #this thought came about because i think swinging around with a child is the stupidest/coolest thing ever #and i feel like peter wouldn't do it without a reason #anyway sorry for the random change in fandoms i saw the movie tonight and it was fantastic #also #catch me crying in the theatre because peter wants his daughter to turn out like miles #OKAY IM DONE SPAMMING THE TAGS NOW BYE #across the spiderverse spoilers #spiderman across the spiderverse

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skyrigel · 1 month

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I don't feel loved

#:(#like really it's a terrible thing to feel but it's not as much as i am giving and it makes me feel so bad #i am not loved enough and to think that this torment would continue always makes me shut my heart and don't start for anyone #it's so pathetic but i can't help it because i don't get it as intense as i am giving and it's always that never scratching even the surface #i think about her alot but she doesn't thinks of me #i try to make him happy but it's never enough #i try to keep myself sane but i sound like a child begging to be taken along and it ain't working for me #I don't think love should be difficult or unnatural #it should definitely come in my way because i deserve it like anyone else #i should feel loved and i hope i do and i hope it changes #to wake up one day and not feel terrible or to just hope for a home where i am loved and cherished #where my love is celebrated and people don't just tolerate it #i want all those pretty giddy feeling for myself #not sorry for rambling because it's my blog !#desiblr #being desi #desi tag #anxiety #sadgirl #love #tw depressing thoughts #tw mental health

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tinybro · 1 year

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jasico server was chatting about the cupid scene and jason getting nico's memories blasted straight into his brain and how jason being shot with one of cupid's arrows while with nico and this was just never brought up in canon again and now i'm thinking like...what if that's just how cupid's arrows work? not by magically manifesting love for someone out of nothing, but by giving someone the perspective that'd make them fall in love naturally? jason gets a front row seat to nico's memories and instantly understands him intimately and can trust him completely without any doubt or suspicion

so what if jason, after slowly realizing he's totally in love with nico, just thought back to the arrow incident and it made him second-guess everything? because maybe he's only feeling this way because cupid hit him with an arrow with only nico was around and it's no different than any other god messing with his love life

#i live for anything that drags out the pining/pre-relationship period as long as possible okay #give me the drama of jason frustrated about constantly being manipulated by gods #in love with nico but convinced it's just cupid fucking with him and not wanting nico to get dragged into it #maybe telling nico eventually because he's having trouble hiding his feelings and he doesn't wanna hurt nico by confusing him #which is of course an emotional rollercoaster for nico #hearing jason say he's in love with him only to then immediately hear that it's just godly fuckery #nico agreeing to help jason find cupid to get it reversed because he knows how much it sucks having feelings for someone unwillingly #and he doesn't want jason stuck mooning over someone like him just because he was unkucky enough to be with nico for the cupid incident #whole quest in which nico develops feelings in return and angsts because he's sure jason only feels that way because of the arrow #maybe a slip-up in the middle somewhere with nico accidentally revealing he likes jason back before backpedaling wildly #so now jason has hope despite himself because he'd never really thought it was possible anyway given nico's feelings for percy #and he doesn't like being manipulated by gods but he doesn't mind the idea of being in love with nico #and what if he just gave up on the hunt for cupid entirely and let it happen #while nico feels guilty since clearly it's just cupid arrow magic fucking with jason and he's enabling it #and then of course when they finally find cupid he explains how his arrows work and that he can't just FORCE someone to be in love #no more than hera could with jason and piper by fucking with their memories to push them together #cupid's methods are just way more effective #my tag babble ended up longer than the actual post oh my god #pjo #jasico #my dumb headcanons

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struggling-jpg · 2 months

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Yanqing and Yunli Appreciation Post

Keep Reading cut due to 2.4 spoilers~ (also relatively long-ish post)

These two bounce off each other so well! As a writer, it feels so satisfying to see their characters shine through the quest and the event in the way their interactions highlight them. So I'm gonna use this space to ramble about it!

My previous post pretty much talked about it already, but Yanqing!!! My son!!! I was quite worried that any potential arc for him would be shoved down the road or to the side due to the scale HSR has, but the game's been actually holding up to his ongoing arc. As a result, at least to me, he's come through as one of the best written/developed characters on the Xianzhou so far.

The nature of the length of the updates lets what we get in previous quests settle in for a long while, and considering the mentioned of flow of time in-game, Yanqing's had the time to think and develop as a person. The fact that so many players have had their view and opinion of him finally turn around in this quest is a testament to that. We get to see more facets of him, as in, doing his job and the responsibilities of doing so, and how his insecurities are mentioned in a main quest for all to see. He's constantly referencing others and his past encounters. You can tell that Jing Yuan raised him with his manner and approach to things, which is highlighted by the contrast to Yunli (will get to that soon).

His position as a child soldier has made him mature faster, be quiet even when he's been wronged (filial piety/saving face (aka thank you person on Reddit who makes the banger character Yanqing (and other characters in general) appreciation posts)), take a step back and have to be able to read the room (though, reasonably, he doesn't catch on all the time), and much, much more. The fact that other official content has described him as being more worried about diplomacy and all that. He doesn't have the luxury to be as carefree or brash for someone his age.

There's a lot to unpack there still, even with the development he's had now and that's good! If the Hoyo writing team was wild enough, it'd be cool to see them address the grayness of his role and Jing Yuan's mindset in raising him as he did (We love Dad-Yuan and he loves his son dearly no question, but it'd be so interesting to explore his flaws/mistakes in this perspective!).

Now onto Yunli.

I'm saying straight off the bat, I'm irritated by her!

And that's a good thing!

Her being annoying or bratty or irritating doesn't automatically make her a badly written character! She only would become one if they don't do anything with her, and HSR most probably will, and she should be given the same room to develop in her own arc.

She acts like her age, and she doesn't have the same pressures as Yanqing does. Just like how you can see Jing Yuan in Yanqing, you can see Huaiyan in Yunli, if anything he says is to go by. She's tempremental and outspoken to a fault, and based on the way how quickly Huaiyan relented when she talked back, you can tell that Huaiyan isn't as strict/stern with her to give her a sense of being humble.

I had this thought that she's technically what the general fandom viewed Yanqing as initially, and I'm not saying that as a 100% thing, by the way. But like by some traits and the vibes. She, of course, has a lot more nuance that will be explored at one point or another.

But back on topic, she's a foil. They represent two different approaches and lifestyles and can clearly learn from each other. Her inconsideration of the fact that she's on the Luofu but enforcing Zhuming practices (which I noticed people were upset by, and same; which I imagine is the point), her bluntness to no matter who she's talking to—there's a lot to work with here.

Just like with their swordplay, Yanqing could learn from her mental strength while Yunli can learn from his focused speed and defense. He can learn to regain a more firm grasp of his recently found purpose while she can learn to mature and take in her surroundings and be more thoughtful in that front.

Another interesting note is that where we are with Yanqing currently is in the middle of his arc, we've had the time to see him take a long route of struggle to get to this point, exacerbated by irl players views of him. He's in the middle of his growth and we've had since 1.0 to get to know him. But with Yunli, she was introduced very recently, so we're technically at the "beginning" of her character arc. In a way, Yunli now highlights how far Yanqing has come and changed, and in a way Yanqing now is a potential show for the arc that Yunli can have (not being the exact same as him of course).

I think the idea with these two is that they develop to be more balanced. Balance is such an important thing, especially in Chinese culture (Daoism (Yin-Yang), etc.), and 2.4 has shown how much potential they have to make for amazing character arcs.

It's cool that while they have such similar base traits, they're so different from each other. Calling Yunli a female Yanqing or Yanqing a male Yunli is simply outright incorrect. Their backgrounds, upbringings, ideals, swordstyles, perspectives, and positions in life are so distinct. I'm looking forward to their futures!

#honkai star rail #hsr #hsr yanqing #hsr yunli #character appreciation #character analysis #despite writing all of that i still feel like i haven't encapsualted fully what i wanted to say esp about yanqing #for yunli i want more time with her character to see where they take her character #i'd assume that they'd give her the same amount of effort as they did yanqing cause it'd be a shame if she remained static which might be #fine superficially since it'd be a cool contrast to yanqing's constant directly visible changing but on a deeper level #yunli a year from now shouldn't be the exact same as she is currently and if she somehow is #that'd be the worst case scenario writing-wise and I trust Hoyo enough to not do that #but if they somehow do then you know what essay I'm writing that day lol #not liking yunli is fine as is not liking yanqing is fine too but I hope she doesn't get treated like Yanqing til her development arc #tho she probably won't which also says a lot if that turns out to be the case #but i'm already making these tags way too long and my brain is very small LOL #struggling jpg thinks

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