#to s5 discourse

[spop-romanticizes-abuse]

the way this is catra word for word LMAO

[annabelle--cane]

yknow I've said before that georgie's apology in mag 190 is the last beat that wraps up her and jon's arc about culpability and support and addiction, and I would like to say that past me is a little dumb idiot, because that scene isn't the last beat of their arc, this one is:

cigarettes and the web lighter, the show's ultimate symbols of subtle manipulation and loss of control. it's a tangible representation that not only has georgie changed her mind about how jon handled his situation, but she's also accepted that she's not immune to having her own strings pulled, making a dodgy decision, and being sucked inexorably into the fray. in a bit of a reversal from their earlier roles, in this conversation jon tries to take all the blame for the apocalypse and georgie's the one telling him "obviously it's not your fault that you didn't outsmart the embodiment of schemes. everyone makes bad choices, it's just rotten luck that yours turned out to be tied to all this." she's left behind all judgment for "bad" habits and choices, she directly understands that none of this can be dodged forever.

[sageandred]

I'm a Ranger Reyes and stay-at-home dad, TK truther.

I don't know if you can be disqualified for dangerous jobs, but you can be disqualified for certain lifestyle conditions, and some agencies will disqualify for not being a 2 parent household.

Through the show, we've seen TK as a firefighter, influenced by his dad, or rather step-dad as it was revealed later, not feeling particularly passionate for a choice put on him of parental expectations, later changing careers to an adjacent job of paramedic and being good, but not the star in action that is Nancy, who Tommy chose to be her acting captain, and now he's gone on to be his true life's passion, that has always been his dream job, a dad. Largely TK's heroic nature has always been at the hands of saving people, but a lot of the time kids. Him delaying his recovery period to reassure the kid that shot him. Him crawling along the ice and getting hypothermia to get to a boy. Even him packing up Lou to come home was an act of his fatherly nature as their first-born son. He's a caretaker first; being a paramedic/firefighter was just born out of that instinctual desire. I really think some fans of this show don't see TK for who he really is (and has always been).

[bombpunk]

brooooo the way some be/nji shippers completely disregarded the importance of darius's character in favor of pushing their own ship was actually so infuriating. maybe if they only did it with the monorail scene it wouldn't bother me so much since kenji was shaken up by ben's "death" but no they did it with EVERYTHING. "kenji spent every day and night dreaming about ben" this and "kenji would have dragged ben back to the boat if he tried staying behind on the island" that. yeah you mean like darius??? you mean like the literal main character of the show??? ERGH it'll never not drive me up the wall

i am SO GLAD other people have noticed this 😭 me and my bestie have been bothered about dinotwt’s behavior for YEARS.

personally it’s the monorail scene itself being turned into a ben/ji moment that bothers me most. because darius is the only one who tried to save ben from falling. DARIUS. darius is the one who couldn’t save him. DARIUS. but noooo they focused on how… *checks notes* kenji fell to his knees during a quick shot instead.

i’m not sure how the shippers are on this site because all my interaction with the jwcc fandom was solely on twt, but i find it Very interesting how important moments in darius and ben’s relationship are taken from them and pushed onto ben and kenji instead. darius unable to keep hold of ben? let’s make it about kenji instead. darius having nightmares about ben? no, obviously that was kenji having those! if they weren’t so obsessed with claiming benrius is problematic, they’d clearly be fans of the ship. that’s why they take all its material and give it to be/nji 💀 it also feels weird to me that they were so intent on demonizing a queer ship that involved a black boy, but maybe i’m just reaching there. i dunno

putting shipping aside, it is just downright antiblack to take pivotal moments of the black mc’s development and make them entirely about a nonblack character. why are you so allergic to letting the black character have focus? when black people already have such small amounts of decent representation in media, especially as main characters? it angers me so much.

tldr darius (and benrius) deserved better from the fandom (and the show, but that’s a convo for another time).

[catras-breakup-song]

Since you seem to debunk some stuff about catradora I'll give you one (if you wan to)

Apparently some people critise catra in the final scene between her and adora when she said "Please just this once stay" and say that she has not changed and still thinks adora left her

Your take on this?

ha lol, i'm not sure i want to be known as the person who debunks 4nt1 arguments because that sets up a lot of discourse to be invited to my door and i don't feel confident about debating very much, so i try not to bring it up on my own that often.

but anyway, that plea isn't about adora leaving catra as much as adora leaving life. we can see that catra has in fact changed & grown, because even if they don't have a future to share together, that doesn't mean adora doesn't deserve to live and be happy anymore. an earlier villainous catra from the earlier seasons who was out to make adora hurt probably would have left her to deal with the weight of the world on her shoulders by herself (although to be fair, we've never had an event during that period when adora was on the verge of death and catra genuinely believed she wasn't going to make it out just fine); this reformed current catra will do everything she can within her power to save adora from destruction, even if it costs another successful sacrifice of her own survival.

i once saw someone say in an analysis video a while back that the journey to the heart allowed catra to learn to love freely without expecting it to be given back. this person was, of course without surprise, five by five takes in their "why catra matters" video at the timestamp 18:08 - 18:31, which quotes:

and finally, with no guarantee of reciprocation, she stays with adora, and tells her that she is loved ─ it's love that catra doesn't believe is reciprocated, and she doesn't need it to be. when she lets go of expectations, she's able to give love freely, and when it's given freely, adora is able to accept it, and so they traverse the biggest gulf in their separate arcs.

if adora was to survive the failsafe, she would accept that a romance might not be in the cards afterwards. perhaps they weren't meant to be together, and that would hurt like hell, and she would struggle to move on just as she did the first time, but that doesn't mean she won't be there for her now when it counts and uphold her end of the promise ─ hence this scene:

i can't lose her again, okay? i promised her a long time ago that i'd look out for her. it's time i made good on that.

and this one too:

no. i'm not leaving. whatever happens, i am staying with you.

if this was about whether or not adora was going to remain loyal to their relationship, then why did she insist on doing the same thing herself anyway?

it wasn't requested, but it's implied to be tied into all of this, so in order to address what happened at the end of "failsafe" beforehand, i think it needs to be understood that selfishness is not inherently a bad thing, which was adora's side of that coin in terms of learning an important lesson and closing their character arcs. if catra needed to be selfless, then adora needed to be selfish. that's exactly what catra was trying to convey here:

why are you like this? why do you always have to sacrifice everything for everyone else? when do you get to choose? what do you want, adora?

but of course, we know that was a failed attempt of convincing. since adora is going to insist on martyrdom, catra is going to relapse back into her old ways out of grief. you can't help someone who isn't willing to save themself, as she should know from past experience, so she figured it wouldn't matter if she was present for such a traumatizing event (the violent death of your closest friend would absolutely affect you to witness) or not. i can't say if this was the right or wrong decision because it's quite complicated, as many topics in this show are, but i hope anyone could at least understand her perspective.

regardless though, obviously she changes her mind and remembers to pay off the debt she was willing to owe since childhood. she course-corrects and even confidently confronts her abuser (whom she'd feared for the longest time) out of desperation to protect someone who matters to her above all else. this is what matters. this is where/when we see her strength shine through. this is how she's become a better person. you'd be hard-pressed to find an individual who makes a perfectly smooth transition, because it's not easy to improve and it's certainly not something that happens overnight. sometimes we fall back into old habits, but we continue to push through and put in that overall effort to make a difference at the end of the day.

so, no, if nothing else, there wasn't any bitter connotation or petty grudge being held in those words begging adora to come back one last time. it was an urge to keep living & loving so that her remaining time on etheria wouldn't be wasted away as a memory. it was a desperate plea for her to realize she is loved before she passes away, and still has so much to give & be given.

also, @g-hostbody added the brilliant detail that it’s almost like catra was subtly saying “i know why you couldn’t stay before, but please do it now, because you have to fight this and get a happy ending!”

if that somehow gets twisted into "this was a manipulative endeavor to avoid losing a co-dependent connection to someone she can't live without", i think i'm just going to go insane and do something similar to this in order to relieve myself from all the pain & suffering (half-joking...):

[mikesbasementbeets]

"if they don’t tell me explicitly that mike was never attracted to el then that means he was"

[removes hands while kissing]

[unresponsive to kiss & "i love you," eyes wide open]

[the sunglasses stay on during kiss, also get off me you're crushing the flowers i carefully placed right in between us]

[no fear]

[one fear]

"idk if they don’t make it clear to me that he doesn’t love el romantically then that means he does"

"they haven't given any indication yet that he doesn't like girls..."

"yeah, mike has definitely shown attraction to girls"

[image not found]

...

[lycorogue]

Got around to watching the Miraculous: London special last night and two things still bug me. 1) Minor, but.... why is this the London special when the only bits that are actually in London are rescuing Kagami and Adrien from their isolation chambers? The rest is in the burrow and Paris..... I guess they couldn't double-dip Miraculous Paris, so they used the secondary location????

2) The main thing that bugs me, though, is the GLARING plot hole that is the entire special. Forgive me if this has already been discussed when the special dropped on the 5th. I haven't checked the tags quite yet.

So, the WHOLE PLOT is because the future Bunnyxes* fade from existence and the entire burrow is shutting down due to time ending. The character formerly known as Lila made a wish, and the entire universe is being erased to be rewritten, as Sass had explained to Luka in "Ephemeral". There is no future because that universe no longer exists to HAVE a future.

EXCEPT!

The WHOLE POINT of the climax of "Re-Creation" (season 5 finale) is that Gabriel succeeded in making his wish.

Didn't- Didn't that then erase their universe and re-write it? Just as it did when Lila made her wish or when Gabriel made his originally in "Ephemeral"?

Wouldn't it have collapsed the burrow the same way that it did in the London special? Why did Alix panic this time, but not the previous one (I'm not counting "Ephemeral" since 15yo Alix wasn't in the burrow at that time)? Did the future Bunnyx(es) not disappear when Gabriel made his wish for some reason??? Was that wish somehow different???

*BTW, where did 70yo Bunnyx come from? Why wasn't she there the whole time? Does she randomly pop in-and-out of the burrow? Does Alix at other ages just kinda pop in-and-out of the burrow? Since we never see other-ages-Alix in the burrow does that mean Alix only ever really uses her powers to hide when she's 15 and again in her 20s? But not again until she's 70? How does that even work? Time doesn't really move forward inside the burrow, so shouldn't it be then filled with every Alix of every age that has ever used the burrow??? What is even going on, and what was the point of even including "grandma" Bunnyx?????

**Side note: Since I'm on a mini Bunnyx tangent right now anyway, I find it odd the times Bunnyx is used to avoid disaster vs not.

Wait MONTHS after Chat Noir is akumatized into Chat Blanc and has killed everyone in Paris; maybe the whole world, who knows?

Don't stop Gabriel making his wish in "Ephemeral"; have Sass use his powers without a holder instead.

Stop Lila from making her wish, but don't stop Gabriel from making his.

I just wish the writers had a better rule-of-thumb for Alix using her power vs not before bringing in an ever-watching time-keeper holder into the mix. -_-

[fluffypotatey]

I said once and I'll say it again, I don't really think late season merlin is a villain, but I do think season 1 and pre canon merlin would think his future self is a villain

agreed, anon, s1 merlin would be horrified at the decision and choices he made by s4-5

but yeah merlin isn’t a “villain” by s5. he falls into more of a gray area in my opinion. like, he is still a hero to me but just with a narrower view on his priorities and 10 years of dealing with your classic episodic enemies who want to kill Arthur

[pisoprano]

With regards to the ML season 5 finale:

I’ve seen some people bemoan Marinette for letting her guard down in front of Gabriel since that enabled him to make his Wish—a classic case of the hero being stupid because the plot needed it happen. But actually? I think it was the very fact that she did let her guard down that helped save the world.

Ladybug has always been shown as being a compassionate person, and this became more pronounced when she started handing out protective charms and giving the akumatized victims the encouragement they needed to help fight back against succumbing to their negative emotions. (side note: I will admit I previously thought it was weird when the show kept having her hand these out after Shadowmoth figured out how to break them, but after the group effort of everyone using their charms to help Prof. Damocles, I realized that they were showing that continued effort to be kind was the right thing to do, even when those efforts failed, because in aggregate it will help things get better).

Marinette is someone who has learned to see and recognize others when they’re at their lowest and support them, and when she realizes that her archenemy is just as human as all the villains she’s faced before, she shows him compassion too. And Gabriel responds to it! Moments before, he was raving about having his perfect universe with his perfect family, with Adrien and Kagami being the iconic perfect couple as its crowning jewel. It’s Marinette who brings him back down to reality and gives him the wake-up call he’s sorely needed—and she can only do that by, not confronting him and judging him, but honestly empathizing with him. She has all the power to crush him and he knows it, so when she instead responds with understanding and reminds him of what Emilie really wanted, the simple truth of it breaks his resolve to get everything he wants—and with that clarity he is finally able to stop being in denial about Emilie’s death and prioritize the happiness Adrien made for himself over what Gabriel thought was best for him.

Naturally, the second that even a hint of a solution pops up, Gabe falls back into his old patterns of grasping at slim chances, but when he does? He doesn’t have the same goals anymore. When he makes the Wish, whatever his heart and soul asked for didn’t include his perfect vision that forced everyone into their boxes of what he thought was right. It saved Nathalie (whose illness was directly caused by Gabriel’s wrongdoings as Hawkmoth, so it’s understandable he’d still want to set that right), and it may or may not have saved Emilie (I personally think that he didn’t, but we’ll see), but Gabriel wasn’t part of that world and Adrien was free to live his life on his own terms. That would not have happened if Gabriel had gotten his hands on the ring and earrings before Marinette helped him change, just enough, to let his obsession go.

Marinette may have made some mistakes in the finale, but being the person who helps others isn’t one of them. There’s a reason Ladybug is considered the greatest hero in the Miraculous universe: it’s not just because she saves the day, but because she inspires people—even those who have hurt her—to choose to become better. The fact that she did so with Gabriel “Monarch” Agreste is pretty amazing in my book.

[ninjagoheritageposts]

🐉✨Happy Halloween Morro Drop S3 Return in Dragons Rising 👻 🎃 🗡️

[spop-romanticizes-abuse]

What is your favorite and least favorite Glimmadora moments and why?

my favorite moment has to be when glimmer breaks out of her torture prison, purely out of raw anger and willpower, because shadow weaver was trying to wipe adora's memory. it's such a badass scene and whether you see it as romantic or platonic, it's miles better than any heroic scene between catra and adora.

the way glimmer punches shadow weaver in the face, her worry and concern for adora afterwards, and adora giving glimmer the softest smile while saying her name — it's just so wholesome 😭

my least favorite moment is probably their reconciliation in s5. while glimmer's apology was still miles better than catra's, the writers just wiped out all the complexity in their relationship in s4.

yes, glimmer was more at fault than adora but it was still more of a mutual conflict, and it's such a disservice to have glimmer say “everything was my fault” and adora be like “lol it's okay, moving on”. i think we deserved a more detailed conversation between them, especially since glimmer was manipulated by the same person who abused adora.

i also find it funny that they conveniently didn't mention the fact that catra also played a huge role in driving glimmer and adora away from each other. i mean, how else would glimmer kiss catra on the cheek if she remembered how catra drove her away from her close friend and preyed on her insecurities? /s

[wackus-bonkus-maximus]

Idk if you’ve heard yet, but apparently the miraculous writing team released a commentary about the s5 finale, and in it they said that Chat Noir not being in the finale was their plan from the beginning (like 2014/15) so they could use the Bug Noire powerup with Marinette. Since you’re working on LoA, I’m curious for your thoughts 😬

i have been off tumblr for a few days but the gist of all the discourse seems to be a disfavorable attitude toward this decision!

"kill your darlings" isn't just about killing characters - it's about killing things that you personally really want in your story if they don't work. personally, i think they could have made bug noire work. there's a lot going against adrien already that he felt chat noir couldn't have helped in the final battle. he didn't need to have a dream about destroying the world; ladybug could've told him about it, and it would have been narratively satisfying to her arc of secret keeping. even moreso, because by chat noir not being present at the battle, ladybug lost and gabriel made the wish. then she could've started season six with reason to think she can't tell anything to adrien, but to chat noir too. and if chat noir had a little breakdown about his chat blanc past, it would have justified ladybug not sending that text to chat about gabriel's identity (in that moment). she probably wouldn't have wanted him to know he'd basically killed gabriel, too.

it just seems like bug noire is a darling they were determined to keep and paid the cost of more coherent narrative decisions to get there. it seems also like adrien remaining in the dark is also a darling the writers wanted to keep. sure, they're getting to tell the story they wanted, but not in the most cohesive or coherent way. but you know what, at least it invites a lot of fic ideas for how the post-wish world should look! and that's really what me and noodles are doing in lies of attrition.

[catras-breakup-song]

So question: what do you think of argument that during they're argument catra pushing adora physically "after she said the wrong thing" in the failsafe episode is her still being abusive to adora?

You dont have to reply to this ask if you dont want to ok?

i enjoy analyzing & debunking controversial interpretations of catradora, so i don't mind answering this ask at all! 𖹭

what makes the most sense to me is that she was reverting back to her old ways without thinking about it — i mean, at that time neither of them really had time to do so and they just reacted quickly and almost involuntarily in response to each other. after all, growth isn't linear despite having gotten along just fine for what was probably months by now, and physical contact was very ingrained into both of them since they were kids.

i'm very aware that anyone is capable of hurting others without necessarily meaning to (and that was clearly also done in other examples throughout the show; not only via catradora either), but the argument in this particular case is that catra's abuse had malicious intent, and that's just simply not true in this scene. it's portrayed as a much more literal form of pushing someone away for emphasis on the intensity of their relationship. whether that's to protect oneself, the other party, and/or take preventative measures from more hurt feelings in the future, it still works to convey the thought process. plus, it doesn't make sense that catra would be attempting to run away without leaving a trace of ever being seen again only to turn around and want to cause pain in that very same moment. as i said, it was an unhealthy, automatic routine from the past that reared its ugly head again out of old habit.

i actually talked about this with someone else who asked a similar question last month, although yours is a bit more specific, where i explained the entire clip more in-depth along with the concluding counterpart in "heart part 2". i think this quote from my post, which was about how catra changed enough for the better at the end of the season, is relevant here (i recommend reading it for some extra background information):

you'd be hard-pressed to find an individual who makes a perfectly smooth transition, because it's not easy to improve and it's certainly not something that happens overnight. sometimes we fall back into old habits, but we continue to push through and put in that overall effort to make a difference at the end of the day.

TL;DR ─ it wasn't an argumentative pushback to adora "saying the wrong thing" (which, by the way, would still be understandable but not excusable! considering shadow weaver was such an emotionally triggering topic), it was a deep-rooted reaction that displays how difficult it can be to unlearn toxic practices.

EDIT: this post is perfect lol

[wuffgang-ameowdeus-moozart]

I think that the complaints about Vickie are less "she is too similar to Robin" (bc girl literally had half a scene of screentime. we have no idea who she is.) and more "once again there are only two (2) explicitly queers in the show (I will always be a Will should've come out to Jonathan truther) so of course they will be forced together".

She was only barely introduced. It feels a lot like the only reason she exists is so Robin can be with someone. The Duffers already have problems dealing with their current (pretty big) cast, it does not bode well for Vickie's characterisation tbh (I'm sorry, I love him as much as the next person. But Argyle's one (1) personality trait is literally. Weed. So it doesn't seem improbable that Vickie's one (1) personality trait would be becoming Robin's girlfriend. Which would suck for obvious reasons. Also, like. They are already infamous for their treatment of queer(-coded) characters)

It would also take away from stobin time, which is an already established dynamic everyone (if you don't you are simply factually incorrect sorry not sorry) loves. The cast is huge, the Duffers will have to pick and choose who they want to focus on, and it seems way more probable that those will be the established mcs (Will & El especially) and not Robin's side-character love interest. I mean, it would honestly be bad storytelling if they did that in the last season.

Especially since the straight romances are so good. Lumax? Absolute banger. The early Stancy development? So good. Jancy? Pretty sure there's a poll out there about how they are one of the most well-liked couples. Mileven? Multiple seasons establishing groundwork before they even get together. To have Vickie not even be a character before she is thrown into a relationship with the only lesbian feels a bit like a slap in the face. Like, at least Steve had a bunch of character development after the breakup but that can't happen with Vickie because it's the last season and they really have other stuff to worry about 😪 Like, idk, at least everyone else had a choice, which is part of what makes those romances so impactful (lumax, jancy, etc etc), while Robin - on the count of being a lesbian and Vickie being the only other sapphic character - really.....doesn't.

(Plus maybe it's the aro in me speaking, but I found it kinda cool to have a canonically queer character whose story arc is not completely focused on romance for once)

I also think this part of the reason why ronance got so big. Nancy already *is* her own person. Nobody can look at Nancy and say "her only personality is being queer" or "she's only here so Robin doesn't end up alone because we obviously need to pair everyone off somehow". A relationship between them would be another facette of their development, not the one thing that defines them. (Like. Her being bi is literally the only reason Vickie is even in the season. Sorry not sorry.)

But I mean. The season isn't out. We barely saw the two interact. My expectations are already below ground level. Maybe they will surprise me.

[fluffypotatey]

Season 5 Merlin is maybe not a villain in a true sense but I think Season 1 Merlin, heck even Season 3 Merlin would be horrified by him and his choices and how he is in Seasin 5.There is a reason why he has become like this of course …..

But I think an earlier Merlin would be so appalled by the fact that he would ever try to convince Arthur not to save Gwaine. Or that he would ever say the words “why did I agree to help Gwen?” My jaw genuinely dropped at those words when I first saw that episode.

he’s definitely changed from where he started in s1 that’s for sure but (in my humble opinion) s5 has a lot of…. “interesting” choices that feel so jarring (tho :) i personally think this could have been solved is we got a longer time with King Arthur and Queen Guinevere :) s4 disheveled King Arthur you will always be famous to ME)

idk it’s hard to grapple with what’s a decision the character made that feels like something they would do given the previous seasons and their growth and what is a decision that was more for the sake of leading up dotd that feels ooc

for example: Merlin telling Arthur not to save Gwaine. it isn’t like Merlin to abandon and give up on someone he considers one of his closest friends (s3 Merlin would have his head for even considering this!). and, sure, maybe we can argue that Merlin does it as a way to keep Arthur out of danger (like how he lied about how the Ygraine Arthur saw in 2x08 was an illusion created by Morgause) bc the Battle of Camlaan is so close and going there might push more of the fate dominoes into place

but also, this argument isn’t one that would ever convince Arthur. you know, the King of Never Leave a Man Behind especially of its one of the knights he views as his closest friends (bc Gwaine is Arthur’s friend. like that is a real canon thing). and maybe you could still argue that Merlin’s fear of destiny outweighed his personal morals here, but it really falls flat when you remember how much Merlin has lost and doesn’t want to lose. Gwaine is someone he trust so much and cares for that to say they should leave him just rips the audience out of the immersion for a moment (it did for me anyway)

so uh yeah s1-3 Merlin would have a field day questioning s5 Merlin (which would be a fun fic to read btw 👀 if you got recs please lmk) and his choices as well as be so appalled by them. but at the same time knowing that these choices were made out of his desire to protect Arthur might cause him to falter or maybe even struggle with wondering if his fate is inevitable

[purrincess-chat]

Okay, listen, I find the distribution of LS sides data to be interesting, and major major props to the OP for spending the time doing it. I mentioned back when the OP did s1 that I understand the metric they used in measuring bc it's unarguable screentime, even if I personally consider a lot of moments where the two aren't together to be for one ship or another (particularly for Adrinette when a majority of the time in earlier seasons Marinette spends probably more time plotting schemes to get with him than actually interacting with him, which would have added to their screentime, in my opinion), but I respect the OP's decision on doing it the way they did. That being said, I'm not going to lie, I laughed pretty hard after the s5 measurements. You're telling me that LN stans lost their absolute damn minds and screamed from the rooftops about how Adrinette stans were "gaslighting" (🙄) them when we said that LN wasn't being shafted that season and "buhh LN is dead where's LN??? I miss them" All of that over a 14% drop in screentime? And they still had THE MOST screentime out of all sides that season?????

I don't know that I can ever take a LN stan seriously again, I'm sorry. I already don't take people who fight about the sides like they're 4 different ships seriously bc as I have said numerous times and will say numerous times again, they are the same damn people. But so long as there are clowns dressing up and showing off for the fandom, I will be here shaking my head at how absolutely absurd they are.

Anyway, all of the respect in the world for the person who did that, you mad lad, you legend, you absolute beast. Please take a damn nap, you've earned it 🤣