#xmen meta

[racefortheironthrone]

What did you think of X-Men Blue Origins?

(I may turn this into a People's History of the Marvel Universe later today, so keep an eye on this space.)

X-Men Blue: Origins and the Power of the Additive Retcon

(WARNING: heavy spoilers under the cut)

Introduction

If you've been a long-time X-Men reader, or you're a listener of Jay & Miles or Cerebrocast or any number of other LGBT+ X-Men podcasts, you probably know the story about how Chris Claremont wrote Mystique and Destiny as a lesbian couple, but had to use obscure verbiage and subtextual coding to get past Jim Shooter's blanket ban on LGBT+ characters in the Marvel Universe.

Likewise, you're probably also familiar with the story that, when Chris Claremont came up with the idea that Raven Darkholme and Kurt Wagner were related (a plot point set up all the way back in Uncanny X-Men #142), he intended that Mystique was Nightcrawler's father, having used her shapeshifting powers to take on a male body and impregnate (her one true love) Irene. This would have moved far beyond subtext - but it proved to be a bridge too far for Marvel editorial, and Claremont was never able to get it past S&P.

This lacuna in the backstories of Kurt and Raven - who was Kurt's father? - would remain one of the enduring mysteries of the X-Men mythos...and if there's one thing that comic writers like, it's filling in these gaps with a retcon.

Enter the Draco

Before I get into the most infamous story in all of X-Men history, I want to talk about retcons a bit. As I've written before:

"As long as there have been comic books, there have been retcons. For all that they have acquired a bad reputation, retcons can be an incredibly useful tool in comics writing and shouldn’t be dismissed out of hand. Done right, retcons can add an enormous amount of depth and breadth to a character, making their worlds far richer than they were before. Instead, I would argue that retcons should be judged on the basis of whether they’re additive (bringing something new to the character by showing us a previously unknown aspect of their lives we never knew existed before) or subtractive (taking away something from the character that had previously been an important part of their identity), and how well those changes suit the character."

For a good example of an additive retcon, I would point to Chris Claremont re-writing Magneto's entire personality by revealing that he was a Jewish survivor of the Holocaust. As I have argued at some length, this transformed Magneto from a Doctor Doom knockoff into a complex and sympathetic character who could now work as a villain, anti-villain, anti-hero, or hero depending on the needs of the story.

For a good example of a subtractive retcon, I would point to...the Draco. If you're not familiar with this story, the TLDR is that it was revealed that Kurt's father was Azazel - an evil ancient mutant with the same powers and the same appearance (albeit color-shifted) as Kurt, who claims to be the devil and is part of a tribe of demonic-looking mutants who were banished to the Brimstone Dimension, and who fathered Nightcrawler as part of a plot to end this banishment.

I don't want to belabor Chuck Austen, because I think that Connor Goldsmith is right about his run actually being a camp cult classic in retrospect. However, I think we both agree that the Draco was a misfire, because of how the retcon undermined Kurt's entire thematic purpose as established in Giant-Size X-Men that Nightcrawler was actually a noble and arguably saintly man who suffered from unjust prejudice due to the random accident that his mutation made him appear to be a demon, and because of how the retcon undermined the centrality of Mystique and Destiny's relationship.

X-Men Blue Origins

This brings us to the Krakoan era. In HOXPOX and X-Men and Inferno, Jonathan Hickman had made Mystique and Destiny a crucial part of the story in a way that they hadn't been in decades: they were the great nemeses of Moira X, they were the force that threatened to burn Krakoa to the ground by revealing the devil's bargain that Xavier had struck with Sinister (and Moira), they were the lens through which the potential futures of Krakoa were explored, and they ultimately reshaped the Quiet Council and the Five in incredibly consequential ways.

This throughline was furthered after Hickman's departure, with Kieron Gillen exploring the backstories of Mystique and Destiny in Immortal X-Men and Sins of Sinister, and both Gillen and Si Spurrier exploring their relationship with Nightcrawler in AXE Judgement Day, Sins of Sinister, Way of X, Legion of X, Nightcrawlers, and Sons of X. One of the threads that wove through the interconnected fabric of these books was an increasing closeness between Kurt and Irene that needed an explanation. Many long-time readers began to anticipate that a retcon about Kurt's parentage was coming - and then we got X-Men Blue: Origins.

In this one issue, Si Spurrier had the difficult assignment of figuring out a way to "fix" the Draco and restore Claremont's intended backstory in a way that was surgical and elegant, that served the character arcs of Kurt, Raven, and Irene, and that dealt with complicated issues of trans and nonbinary representation, lesbian representation, disability representation, and the protean nature of the mutant metaphor. Thanks to help from Charlie Jane Anders and Steve Foxe, I think Spurrier succeeded tremendously.

I don't want to go through the issue beat-by-beat, because you should all read it, but the major retcon is that Mystique turns out to be a near-Omega level shapeshifter, who can rewrite themselves on a molecular level. Raven transformed into a male body and impregnated Irene, using bits of Azazel and many other men's DNA as her "pigments." In addition to being a deeply felt desire on both their parts to have a family together, this was part of Irene's plan to save them both (and the entire world) from Azazel's schemes, a plan that required them to abandon Kurt as a scapegoat-savior (a la Robert Graves' King Jesus), and to have Xavier wipe both their memories.

Now, I'm not the right person to write about what this story means on a representational level; I'll leave it to my LGBT+ colleagues on the Cerebrocast discord and elsewhere to discuss the personal resonances the story had for them.

What I will say, however, is that I thought this issue threaded the needle of all of these competing imperatives very deftly. It "fixed" the Draco without completely negating it, it really deepened and complicated the characters and relationships of both Raven and Irene (by showing that, in a lot of ways, Destiny is the more ruthless and manipulative of the two), and it honored Kurt's core identity as a man of hope and compassion (even if it did put him in a rather thankless ingénue role for much of the book).

It is the very acme of an additive retcon; nothing was lost, everything was gained.

I still think the baby Nightcrawler is just a bad bit, but then again I don't really vibe with Spurrier's comedic stylings.

[toomanybs]

Homo Superior: Awesome New Species or Super Over-Exaggerated

Mutants being called a different species compared to baseline humans is a common trope in X-Men media. Sometimes by human bigots, sometimes by mutant supremacists. But that,,, doesn't sound right. So we're going to use a trio of Species Concepts biology taught me to test the question: Does this claim hold any water? Like, any at all?

Morphological Species Concept:

If two groups look different and distinctly recognizable, they probably aren't the same species. This is appearance, abilities, and behaviors.

Mutants can obviously do things that are impossible for baseline humans. Professor X can read minds, and Magneto can control electromagnetism. No "Homo Sapien" could, so they are a new species. Very cut and dry. However... can Professor X bend metal with his mind? No? Then I guess he is also a different species from Magneto. And every other non-telepath

Mutants are shown distinct from baseline humans by defining what they are not, but they are as different from one another as they are from baselines. A different species that does not make unless you want to try and apply that logic to each and every one of us, individually

Is a lactose intolerant man a different species than me, who loves to drink milk? No? Guess amazing abilities a nebulous ~~someone else~~ wouldn't have isn't enough to be a new species

Mutants think the same way humans do, socialize the same way humans do, and live the same way humans do. If they can hide their powers they fit right in, no greater difficulty than the stress, which they would not be able to do if a different species

Verdict: They are the same species

Molecular Species Concept:

DNA. If two groups have very similar DNA they are probably related. Similar enough and they are probably the same species.

It's called the X-gene, which seems to either refer to a group of genes or be very poorly understood/vague. Either way the genetic difference between baseline and mutant is small, possibly to the point of being unidentifiable. If you watched First Class, you've seen Charles flirt by naming mutations as an analogy for Mutants. We can assume the X-gene is so small as to be comparable to normal variation

Verdict: They are the same species

Biological Species Concept:

A species is a distinct evolutionary line. If two groups can reproduce together and get kids that can also reproduce they are probably of the same species, because the pair isn't an evolutionary dead-end. If anything gets in the way, be it mechanics, timing, genetic incompatibility, behavior, or kid's (poor) survival they are probably not the same species or on their way to diverging

Some differing species, like grey wolves and coyotes, can produce hybrids, but they won't be of either species. Instead the are something distinct and new (often less suitable to either of the parent's niches), such as the previously mentioned coywolves, who are on their way to being their own species

Let's look at some canon examples of human and mutant pairings, and their kids. I will include Comic and Movie characters, because I wanted an example of baseline parents = baseline kid without feeling pedantic:

Magneto (mutant) married Magda (baseline) and their first child was Anya (baseline). They sometimes then had Wanda+Pietro (mutants). Magneto and Suzanna Dane (baseline) had Lorna Dane (mutant)

Mystique (mutant) and Sabretooth (mutant) had Grayson Creed (baseline). Scott Summers (mutant) and Jean Gray (mutant) had Cable (mutant).

William Drake (human) and Madeline Bass (human) Bobby Drake (mutant) and Ronny Drake (baseline)

mutant + baseline = mutant or baseline, no hybrid

mutant + mutant = mutant or baseline

baseline + baseline = mutant or baseline

If you believe parents of a shared species could produce offspring of a different species, you are wrong. About as wrong as a guy who thinks the dinosaurs are all dead because a black hole was jealous of their beauty and sucked them all up. That's how wrong

Verdict: They are the same species

To Conclude:

Magneto is dumb. Apocalypse is dumb. Shaw is dumb. Trask is dumb. Baseline humans are not the irrelevant leftovers of a bygone area, or the blood-sworn enemies across town. They are the Mutants' identical twin in the bottom bunk with a slightly different freckle pattern

The fact that Apocalypse has existed since 10,000 years ago (according to X-Men: Apocalypse) and manages to find 4 other Mutants every time he shows up despite mutants being unknown to humans is evidence enough to be honest. Mutants are a part of humanity and have been for longer than literature. They are not the instantaneous, brand new direction to replace humanity. They are fully integrated, but often unrecognized, members of the Homo sapiens. No such thing as a Homo superior

You could argue they are a subspecies (Homo sapiens superior), but humans have spread across the entire globe and been cut apart by entire oceans for and have not a single subspecies among us. Native Americans are twice as old as Apocalypse, the oldest known mutant. Mutants aren't even isolated from baselines. It would be very hard to believe they are more separate than any real world group

[otakug99999]

the 1st xmen trilogy in the MCU

you know marvel studios is not going to stop at just one trilogy of xmen films, but if i was a producer on them here is how the sagas would proceed: movie 1- introduce the status of mutants. the xmen are in the margins, but not the main focus, that belongs to the students. but the xmen are still important for the saga, as their actions impact the students, like in the real world adult actions affect the lives of children whether they realize it or not.

movie 2-a loose adaptation of night of the sentinels. while the xmen are focused that front, the xmen-in-training and students dealing with the external threat of the friends of humanity/church of humanity outside the school, as well a human counselor betraying the students to the foh/coh, believing that the students are being saved from being "indoctrinated" (not realizing that under foh, at best the students will be second-class citizens, and worst want the students dead, not unlike the real life "anti-woke" and anti-trans bills and legislation in schools)

movie 3-a rough adaptation of the mutant massacre, that introduces mr. sinester. even if everyone comes out live from the event, they don't come out unscarred. the 3rd act would end with pride celebration (both this world's mutant pride and queer pride, acknowledging both the metaphor and the real world context), remembering those that were lost but celebrating their existence in face of adversity.

each saga/trilogy focusing on a batch of students being trained to be xmen

[isthiswhatiam]

Why was Alex Summers in prison?

[an-onyx-void]

Thank you Beau DeMayo

[musclesandhammering]

Friendly reminder that there’s only one multiverse in the mcu. It covers everything- Marvel, Sony, Fox, etc. Those are all universes inside the multiverse… of which there is only one :) :)

[theboost]

Going through old fanfic I’ve written that i will never finish and laughing my ass off I really am the funniest person alive

[racefortheironthrone]

Who's a more powerful atmokinetic, Storm or Thor?

Hah! Great question, but one that better writers than me have answered before...

If we were to score it like a boxing match, I think this is one that would have to go to the judges and end up in a narrow split decision, largely depending on whose book the fight is happening.

Ever since the Asgardian Wars crossover in 1985, it's been established that Storm is Thor's peer - capable of taking up the mantle of the Goddess of Thunder and one of the few individuals worthy of wielding Mjolnir.

In later comics, people have explored the similarities and differences between Storm and Thor - and what they have generally settled is that Thor has something of an edge when it comes to his speciality of Thunder, Storm is more versatile and flexible because she can control all forms of weather.

In conclusion: power scaling is dumb and there's more interesting ways to think about the question that result in richer and more meaningful stories, and you should definitely read the Asgardian Wars and Al Ewing's Immortal Thor.

[imperiuswrecked]

Is namor gay? or bisexual? or pansexual??

I personally headcanon Namor as pansexual.

Officially Marvel has never stated Namor to be gay/bi/pansexual. Marvel assumes Namor is straight, however a few times in the comics creators have subtlety hinted that Namor is not.

However unless Marvel comes out and states this officially then at this point all we have is LGBTQ Coding from the comics, however the comics have at least stated that Namor is polyamorous and has had both monogamous and non-monogamous relationships and this is canon.

Also note that Namor has stated “Partners” rather than just “women” whenever he talks about his relationships.

Uncanny X-Men (2012) #1 - Namor is shown entertaining advances from multiple partners.

Uncanny X-Men (1963) 534.1 - "Only Namor has the ability to make the earth move. And he reserves that privilege for one woman at a time. Unless they have experimental friends."

Bucky Barnes: Winter Soldier (2014) #1 - "I am not single. Well presently there are four. Brenda is my primary. Primary partner. Ulalume, Francis*, and China. I'm also seeing from time to time."

*Note: Francis is the male version. The female version of the name is Frances or Francesca.

Marvel has also canceled a planned Queer Romance story line between Namor/Quicksilver back in 2015 for the House of M (2015) Alternate Universe because they stated they didn't want to write a same sex story line unless it had lasting effects, even though they had done that before in many alternate universes however they didn't want to imply Namor or Quicksilver were anything but straight. They tried to scrub the story line from the comic itself but you can still feel the intent.

House of M (2015) #1

House of M (2015) #2

House of M (2015) #3

The artist Claire Hummel was pushing for Marvel to use romance covers for the House of M (2015)

[shokuto]

This moment between Kitty Pryde and Logan being the one bright spot in all of Ultimatum

[punkrogue]

I always feel so frustrated with how unimaginative Marvel is with Remy, the only interesting things he's had is New Sun and X-Factor. Idk if this is true, but I read there was some rumor that Remy was gonna be an alter ego of Sinister, which would've given the writers more to work with imo. I think why some writers like Rogue and Erik more since they're much easier to work with outside of shipping. Same with Kurt, whom I sometimes think Remy is a pale imitation of (Catholic, martial artist, looks demonic, ladies man, even his powers suit a thief more than Remy's). If Kurt and Rogue weren't siblings, I'd sooner ship Rogue with him than Remy. Also, since Remy can only charge non-living things, it just makes him look weak and limited compared to other characters. I don't say all this shit to be mean, but I do get frustrated with how little material he's given, and can understand why his character is constantly put on the back burner in various media compared to other X-Men characters.

Yeah I remember reading somewhere they'd thought about doing something like that with Remy and Sinister and I think instead went with New Sun? Something like that. Also considered having him be ANOTHER Secret Summers Brother and I'm glad we didn't go this route lol we need to stop the Summers-Grey family tree from taking over the whole X-verse while we can.

I'll say that I don't feel that Remy is a pale imitation of Kurt mainly because I feel Remy deals with a lotta things that Kurt really doesn't on a personal level (true parental abandonment like no margali in SIGHT kinda shit, street life, crime, child soldier gangland shit, the greys and blacks of morality etc). You see more of those things in his solos which can even get a bit of a noir vibe to them which is nice but people just rarely wanna put in the time and effort with Remy. They rarely get him so they knock him down into say, the TAS 90s Gambit mold and call it a day. Which is just ....... no one wants that. Not Gambit Haters, not Gambit Stans.

And I get what you're saying about his powers but I think if he could charge living matter constantly like he can as New Sun homie would be so comically OP. I think the real issue here is just again, fuckers don't know how to write him so they go for whatever's easiest. So it's all lame, dumb and boring. If they let him get funky with his powers a bit more it'd could be super cool.

The pro of Rogue and Magneto when made scene partners is that they do have much more solid pre-existing characterizations, vibes and "story packs". As a writer you can walk in and already there's a couple of things you can do which are kinda like Rogue or Magneto Classics. Remy not so much so he ends up being like, Rogue's loser sidekick which sucks.

I feel you tho on the shitshow that is comic Rogue-Kurt dynamics. I too can see the appeal and charm of them as a romantic ship just as much as I can see them working wonderfully as a sibling pair. My beef around them has been for years that we get this Big Reveal that Mystique is Kurt's Bio-Mom but after he has his initial freak out for a couple issues in Excalibur or Uncanny or w/e he was in at the time I forget I just remember Amanda is there this whole thing-- IT NEVER REALLY COMES UP AGAIN BETWEEN HIM AND ROGUE AND THEY JUST ACT LIKE NORMAL AND OCCASIONALLY MENTION THEY'RE SORT-OF RELATED IN A WAY THAT'S MORE OF A REMINDER TO THE AUDIENCE????? LIKE IT'S FUN TRIVIA INSTEAD OF A PLOT POINT OR IMPORTANT RELATIONSHIP????

their first serious non-combat interaction was basically Kurt telling her to drop dead when she comes to Xavier for help when she's 17 and he's 21. He finally cuts her some slack after she ALMOST DIES IN A SUICIDE BY VILLAIN ATTEMPT to save Wolverine's fiance which makes Wolverine go "yeah okay fine your not total dogshit ig" so NOW Kurt'll stop being a raging asshole to the mentally ill teen lol (I'm shit talking Kurt rn but this is genuinely part of why I love him). Then there's MAYBE a couple of scenes that are outside of Action Stuff before the X-Men "die" in the late 80s and we get Excalibur where the two of them interact, the biggest of them is him FLIRTING WITH HER.

Uncanny X-Men (1963) #192

Now-- it's Kurt so this isn't anything really all that crazy. He jokingly flirts with like 90% of the X-Men. It's just the kinda silly funny quirky guy he is. But when I'm trying to think of say, Rogue-Kurt moments POST the Mystique Reveal that really feel like People Connecting or them Actually Being Siblings I draw a blank. This flirting scene is more iconic and stand out than basically all of their 00s and on interactions because it feels like a natural and very emotional conflict they WOULD have. He goofs around like he always does, her feelings get hurt, he realizes what he's done and feels like an ass and wants to fix it. EMOTIONS HAPPENED HERE, CHARACTERIZATION AND CONFLICTED OCCURRED. THIS CONFLICT AND LATER RECONCILIATION WILL LEAD TO A BETTER FRIENDSHIP AS WE GO! THANKS CLAREMONT!

Even at her wedding he's basically just like "well I AM her brother (remember? did you see that watchmojo listicle? have you read my wiki recently) and I AM blue so I should ALSO be in the wedding."

There's really not a lot of content of them like, hanging out, post 2004 or so. Some of that is just them being in different books but a lot of it just no one putting in the time or effort. X-Treme X-Men (2001) was all about Rogue looking into shit related to Destiny's writings and grappling with some Family and Personal Grief at the start there. Kurt shoulda been around for at least the first arc. Not thunderbird that absolutely nothing of a dude. It was the perfect setting to work on this issue that the 6 degrees of Mystique™ has made. One of the only other encounters between them I can think of that's post-90s is this:

Rogue (2001) #4

And this interaction is set like VERY SOON after she joined the X-Men!!!! So it's not even a truly modern scene of them just vibing!!!!

To me, they're NOT siblings. Not in the way Kurt is with Amanda who's his ACTUAL adoptive sister or even in the way that Rogue is with Bobby, Sam or Scott who she just has Massive Broship Energies with and it's entirely because their 6 Degrees of Mystique™ is tenuous at best for how much it would really matter to them. Kurt HAS a family! He HAS siblings! Mystique abandoned/lost him and never looked for him or intended to tell him about their connection until forced to. He was raised by Margali and sees HER FAMILY as HIS family and they think the same! Like that's a standard ass adoptive family vibe.

Rogue is found by Mystique and Irene and raised by them in near isolation ON ANOTHER CONTINENT and is never informed about Kurt even in a past "i had a baby and lost him" tense kinda way or Graydon either. To her knowledge growing up she HAS NO SIBLINGS OF ANY KIND. She meets and fights against and then beside Kurt with no idea there's literally anything connecting them but that they're both mutants and x-men for like, YEARS even IN canon. Their whole relationship is rocky as shit for a WHILE there and then she gets YEETED SECRETLY TO AUSTRALIA AND HE THINKS SHE DIED. And let's be clear-- sure he's upset about her "death" too but he is MUCH more upset over the "deaths" of Logan, Ororo and Peter who he ACTUALLY NAMES WHILE TALKING ABOUT THIS GRIEF. Because you know... THESE RELATIONSHIPS ACTUALLY HAD FUCKING SCREENTIME.

Excalibur (1988) #1

He's not a monster, he does give a shit about her, but realistically over the years VERY little time has been put into building ANY relationship between Rogue and Kurt of ANY kind and it's frustrating when they really wanna act like they've got one. They don't. And it pisses me off because realistically Rogue/Kurt is less fucked up than Amanda/Kurt and guess which one is canon. Because of the 6 Degrees of Mystique™ people don't really ship them even tho there's an even more Yikes Kurt ship that's canon and Does Not Seem To Fucking Die, there's been no real development of ANY kind of relationship between him and Rogue, they've lived their ENTIRE lives not knowing each other or not really being more than coworkers and Kurt has NO INTEREST in truly claiming Mystique as his mother which is valid-- she fucking sucks.

I think Rogue/Kurt has legs and it's aggravating to me because I also really like Rogue & Kurt siblingship! I grew up watching Evolution! The sibling vibes and friendship that grow naturally up between them even BEFORE the Mystique Reveal in that show are just CHEF'S KISS. But in comics they IMPLY a familial connection that really.... doesn't mean much... and then they don't show these two deciding it to make it mean something or organically falling into a good sibling relationship... so they cut off the dynamic at the knees. You'll be shit on if you try to go off script and explore a more romantic angle because "ew they're rElAtEd" (ignoring all the previously stated flaws in that argument), there's nothing in canon that helps you figure out how friendly they even truly are so good luck building something canon compliant and they just generally don't seem to even give a shit about this dynamic at all so without dipping into other adaptations/AUs it can be hard to find something to even SAY about them.

Like I'd love to see Rogue and Kurt engage like, finding out what the Mystique Reveal means to them and how they see each other. I'd love to see them becoming friends and then family. I'd love to see them making that CHOICE. Because really in this context it's a CHOICE. She's not his adoptive sister, Amanda is. She's not his bio sister either in 616, that idea got shot down early on. She's a girl his bio mom who is a stranger to him raised an ocean away while he was raised in a loving home with siblings he adores. They met when she was a villain, he vehemently disliked her until she almost died saving someone's life then he tried to at least be civil and friendly. He finds out Mystique is his bio mother and asks Rogue about her but at the end of the day feels no real connection to Mystique or her life. His mother is Margali. The circus was his family. He cares about Mystique, Irene and Rogue because he's a decent human being but like, not in the same amount or extent as his adoptive family.

You can't have a scene of him flirting, even jokingly, with her in the 80s then think a 1993 mom reveal some how totally erases that vibe. Especially when you then put like no effort into exploring that GOLDMINE OF A PLOT THREAD. They've got so few non-combat just hanging out and engaging in character development interactions in 616 canon I can count them on my hands. At this point you could spin a wheel and decide to give them any relationship dynamic and it could genuinely work because there's no real content of them in comics to use contest it.

Like at her wedding they bring up that he's her brother again. That shouldn't be something we have a "turn to the camera and remind the audience" moment about. That should be as "well duh" to me as Bobby being her best man or Scott and Alex being brothers. It's not. It's just not. Their connection is just a factoid at this point and I hate it. You can't close off all these other potential dynamics for them (romantic/enemies/rivals/shitty roommates/etc whatever) by making them connected via Mystique, having an line every like, 10 years that reminds us they're "siblings" (are they tho? are they really? is that how this works?) and kinda vaguely imply they don't hate each other which is really just riding on the fact that pretty much ALL the X-Men like Kurt and we the audience like both of them and then GIVE US NOTHING WITH THAT STATED DYNAMIC!

MORE TIME AND EFFORT WAS PUT INTO MAKING NATE GREY SEE MADYLENE PRYOR AS HIS MOTHER OVER JEAN THAN HAS EVER BEEN PUT INTO MAKING ROGUE AND KURT FEEL LIKE THEY'RE EVEN FRIENDS LET ALONE SIBLINGS AND I'M VERY MAD ABOUT IT!!!! EITHER GIVE ME WHAT I WANT OR CUT THE REINS AT LET ME DO WHATEVER!!!

fsdkjghksdl so i just get VERY heated about this it's a pet peeve of mine.

[mutxnts]

If your up for some cherik, do you think Charles and Erik would have been friends as kids?

hmm, that's really interesting to think about! i think the answer probably changes depending on how old they are, and if erik has gone through his trauma yet. when we see young charles in first class, he is extremely friendly and kind to raven when he catches her breaking into the kitchen to steal food. he lets her take whatever, and then even goes a step further and says she can stay so she doesn't have to keep stealing. i think at that age, charles would love to be friends with erik and would be so welcoming and understanding of him no matter if he's gone through any of his trauma yet.

now, where it gets tricky is erik is the wild card. we know that he turns into a lone wolf type after he gets away from shaw, so i think if they were to meet AFTER all that, erik would be much much more reluctant to befriend charles. but even still, he's a kid who recently lost his parents. he desperately wants companionship, and i think in the end, they would be friends. it would take a while for him to let charles in and for him to warm up to him, but eventually they would.

but if this is like an au or they meet somehow before erik's trauma, i think they would be friends!!! i haven't really thought much about what erik would be like pre-holocaust, but i would imagine he's pretty similar to most kids at that age? charles is definitely the more outgoing one between them and he looooves making friends, so erik might be put off by that initially, but really, i think he would like how kind and caring erik is

[zoanzon]

The original X-Men trilogy movies are deeply Bush Era works, and by god I hope I can figure out how to try and word my defense of this unhinged point because I know I'm willing to die on this hill