#adhd/autism overlap

[descendant-of-truth]

Honestly? So much of Sonic Prime happens the way it does because Sonic is unabashedly, wholeheartedly neurodivergent, and I wanna talk about that in detail for several reasons

I think most people assume he has ADHD, and while I agree, I think they tend to leave it at "he's hyperactive and impulsive" when there's actually a lot more going on there.

For example, he lacks a filter. He says exactly what he's thinking, all the time, regardless of who's listening. I wouldn't be surprised if he does it as a type of vocal stim, considering that he talks to himself as much as he does to other people. Maybe he dislikes the way silence feels on his ears, too?

Something I noticed was that when Thorn gets on his case for this, asking if he ever stops talking, the way he says "eh, not really" sounds... almost resigned?

He could have easily said it in a more jokey way, but his tone (and the wide camera shot) gives me the impression that this isn't a trait of his that he feels especially positive about.

It's not cool or funny to him, at least not in this instance; it's just something he does, which further proves to me that it's more of an unconscious stim than anything else.

On the topic of the jungle world though, it also shows us a couple instances of him not being able to read others' intentions very well. Prim lies to him about knowing what the Prism shard is, and Thorn uses him to get to said shard - and despite how hostile they are, he takes both of them at their word.

He only realizes Thorn's intentions after she hits him across the clearing - not for the first time that day, mind you - and Sonic berates himself a little for not seeing this coming.

But it's not like this is the only time he has difficulty understanding intent; just look at his interactions with Shadow.

This is not the behavior of someone who understands why Shadow's picking a fight with him. He doesn't understand the implications of "you literally shook the world" because he doesn't know about the Weirder aspects of the explosion. In his mind, he just messed up a mountain.

Though I think his attitude implies another thing about his dynamic with Shadow that might explain why he was so quick to dismiss what he was talking about, which is. I don't think Sonic usually understands why they fight??

Shadow is a person of few words and Sonic has a hard time picking up on subtleties, that's a recipe for miscommunication already. And if Sonic's already predisposed to thinking that Shadow fights him Just Because, then of course he didn't take this particular instance seriously.

Though going back to "he only registered the physical effect of the explosion," Sonic is actually pretty consistent with understanding things that are tangible a lot better than anything else. Case in point: that One Palm Tree

His first reaction to seeing it presented as a gift is that it must be a trick. because he doesn't see the tangible point of the tree, and isn't enough of a symbolism guy to see the sentimental point of it, either.

Don't get me wrong, he is being insensitive here, but I don't think it's on purpose in any way. Look at his body language and expressions:

Even as he's getting on their case for being too sentimental, he's not unhappy or uncomfortable with them. He's just completely failing to recognize that this was supposed to be a big deal for them, so he's treating it way more casually than is appropriate.

Which is like. a classic social flub for neurodivergent folks

(Quick side note - this specific "huh" that he makes as Tails is flying away before Sonic realizes he's upset is a whole mood. I don't know how to explain it but this is Exactly what it feels like when you can sorta tell something's not clicking but you don't know what yet)

(Look at him. brain static)

I could go on with the detailed explanations but some of that would just be me repeating past posts I've made, so I'll leave it at "he is clearly not handling change well either" and link back to an example.

So anyway, this is what I meant when I said that so much of the show is impacted by Sonic being neurodivergent. It affects how we hear his thoughts as viewers, it affects his ability to understand and connect with his friends, it's why he dismisses Shadow, it's why he impulsively smashes the Paradox Prism, the list goes on.

And he's not stupid because of any of these traits, either. None of what I've described has to do with intelligence, but I've seen "Sonic is too dumb" as a reason to criticize the show, and that's just not what's happening here.

If anything, I'm actually really impressed with how well the writers have managed to portray a more nuanced take on what a character with ADHD would look like. Because he's not just being hyperactive and chatty, you can tell it affects how he perceives things too.

Which is a much bigger part of the overall experience, and it's really cool to see in a cartoon like this - and in the lovable main character, to boot! Who cherishes his friends despite his struggles to understand them! Why is it so good!

In conclusion Sonic is the ADHD king we both needed and deserved, thanks for coming to my TED talk

[my-autism-adhd-blog]

Hi everyone,

I wanted to show you a helpful ven diagram of autism and adhd. The symptoms/characteristics overlap quite a bit.

This comes from Neurodivergent Insights. The link to this will be below if anyone wants to read it.

Autism

ADHD

[scificrows]

Is there a 300 page essay about Murderbot's armor (specifically the opaque helmet) as a not-so-subtle metaphor for masking in a clearly neurodivergent character already? Because I need it.

The way Murderbot is unvoluntarily without its opaque armor in All System Red in front of the crew (i.e. unmasking) and appears surprised at its own strong facial expressions and other people's reaction to it? The vulnerability that comes with that and how Murderbot spends pretty much the rest of the book wearing or actively missing its armor which keeps it safe from the mortifying ordeal of being known (yet sometimes other characters suggest it might help for it to not opacify the helmet in order for others to see it as a person and to trust it (and in the end idk if it would have achieved the rewards of being loved by its humans and have had its needs met if it hadn't unmasked in this relatively safe environment sometimes)).

Also there's the whole avoiding-looking-directly-at-people-and-using-drones-instead thing which Murderbot usually hides using the opaque helmet, but whenever it doesn't have that people notice it and many react negatively/confused. I think that's a whole neurodivergent-applicable situation in and of itself? Like damn

And then Mensah encourages Murderbot not to wear armor on Preservation station since it would not need it there, Murderbot is hesitant but ends up not wearing any (like 4 books later when we finally get to that bridge) (going for the comfortable clothes it chose for itself instead, with very strong feelings about the whole being able to make choices thing that I cannot go into further at this point because I would absolutely end up BITING SOMETHING OR SOMEONE).

And I'm not going to advocate for unmasking all the time in any setting because hell no, sometimes it absolutely sucks and people are irritated by Murderbot's now visible quirks and are afraid of what they don't know, but many GET TO KNOW Murderbot better and because there are other people that make sure Murderbot is safe and respected and are willing to get people fired for it if they disrespect it (Pin-Lee my beloved) Murderbot can experiment with this situation without being exiled to some abonded part of a planet and other people are forced to spend enough time around ot to learn to respect it and even like it. I just....... It must be so scary and Murderbot is handling so much at once and in this essay I will

PS sorry this is a disorganized mess but so am I and I have so many Thoughts and even more Emotions and so little patience.

[ken-katayanagi]

Me: I wouldn’t say I categorize people by worth, but more like…threat level? Whether or not they would look down on me inherently. I know that’s flawed but-

My psych (lovingly, or as lovingly as they can):

Image by @schizonarcc

[moorishflower]

FWIW I've since been informed that the RAADS-R autism diagnostic test has known issues with accuracy linked at least partially to the vagueness of its questions, also any diagnostic test you take online is moot anyway because tests like that need to be taken in conjunction with conversations with a psychologist/psychiatrist/other trained professional. Self diagnosis is an important tool of medical self-advocacy in an age where mental health issues tend to be ignored or poorly understood, but you also have to keep in mind your own limitations and lack of training. It's fun to take a test and say maybe this is the reason I am the way I am but if it really bothers you you can't leave it at that, you gotta get therapied about it.

[wanderinghedgehog]

According to multiple doctors, I am not autistic. In fact, I have ADHD that just looks a hell of a lot like autism. My favorite way of explaining this is my ADHD is cosplaying as autism.

[lilliths-httyd-blog]

once again thinking about how the neurodivergent understanding of Happy Feet makes the movie 10x better and the fact that most people are neurotypical and just wouldn't get it is why the movie is so slept on (seriously it's so good). mumble is autistic coded and the whole movie begins to make sense when you consider the in depth implications of that.

oh and also reminder that happy feet was originally made for adults which explains a lot of the weirder, venereal moments

[jojotier]

i hate neurodivergency bro i just had a good full and healthy breakfast that any other day would leave me ready to go but i spent like twenty minutes after feeling fully disregulated and fully overwhelmed by the prospect of the day bc i didnt do the "make a cup of coffee" part of my usual morning routine. and now that i have the coffee- havent even drank any yet- im just Fine Now. like man what the fuck was that about then

[baejax-the-great]

Hi, I saw on one of your ao3 comments that you think Homers' Achilles is on the spectrum. This is a really interesting idea to me, but I don't know that much about autism - could you elaborate on why you think that? (Also, I think all of your fics are amazing ☺️)

Autism as a word and diagnosis did not exist in ancient Greece, and I have no idea if there would have been a similar concept about it (doubt it) or if more likely people with certain autistic traits would have been considered to have a certain type of personality. So for me to say that Homer deliberately wrote Achilles as "autistic" is a little tongue in cheek.

That said, reading the Iliad I did have a moment of "Ohhhh, dude's autistic I get it." Some people might look at my reasoning and say, "well, that could be a whole other thing with these other reasons," and that's fair. This is just how it came across to me and why.

Sense of justice/fairness. This is one of the more obscure autistic traits (that often gets misunderstood and shit upon by people), but it's how the book begins, so I'll start here. Autistic people are more likely to learn and follow rules to a T. This gets rolled into the trait of "rigid thinking" and has been related to autistic people's preference for solid routines. To think about where you lie with this trait, one example is the "walk" signal at a crosswalk. Some people jaywalk when the road is very clear and no one is around. Some people jaywalk when the road ISN'T clear because they don't give a fuck. And some people will wait for that light to turn white no matter what because that's what you are supposed to do and there are rules (although culture/country of origin will also affect how much relevance traffic lights have in your life).

This is a rule, but it has little do to with justice. So to figure out where you stand in terms of justice sensitivity, another metric is how angry you feel when you watch someone cut in line and not get punished for it. Some of us will sigh and move on with our life because dicks are everywhere, whatever, and some people will have a harder time letting go because this person broke a rule in an obviously unfair way, and they should be punished for that.

This trait does not mean that autistic people have a better sense of what justice is or what rules/laws are "just." That is all very subjective. But this trait does result in a stronger negative reaction to seeing those rules/laws violated.

Such as rage.

Achilles fits the bill here in both in terms of rigid thinking and his sense of justice. His reputation in the Greek tradition is as someone who was very educated. In fact, he is the most educated with regards to law and religion than the rest of the Achaeans thanks to his time with Chiron. More than that, he actually cared about what he was taught and was considered kind of a stick-in-the-mud in terms of believing that the armies should follow the rules and customs of their people at all times and that violating their own laws was bad, even if you really, really wanted to bang a hot chick.

When Agamemnon decides to take Briseis, he is breaking a Rule. The common interpretation of what happens here is that he has violated Achilles' pride and honor in doing so, and Achilles loses his shit. That's valid. To me it read a little differently. I mean, for one, Achilles is 100% correct in the first book. Agamemnon pissed off the gods in a way he shouldn't have bringing plague on everyone, and how does he solve this? By agreeing to do the thing Achilles told him to do to solve it and then immediately violating their customs to steal from Achilles, bringing down a plague of "Achilles is not going to help you anymore."

Achilles cries to his mom that he wants the gods to fuck over the Greeks to prove Achilles right, which is deeply immature, but also really makes sense to me. Like, Agamemnon did this shitty, illegal, rules-breaking thing, and he needs to feel the consequences of that action. Achilles isn't a god who can bring down a plague, but his mommy is, so get fucked, Agamemnon. It's Zeus time.

During the time Achilles is out of the fighting, he is routinely called hard-hearted, stubborn, and other words to indicate he will not be swayed, which again speaks to his rigidity of understanding how things should be done.

The Way Achilles Talks About His Emotions. Achilles very clearly states what he is feeling throughout the book, and he often restates it. We get it, bro. You're mad. And then sad. Really, really sad. While this is almost definitely for the audience to understand his feelings and just how deep they run, Homer also could have just told us outright what he was thinking without having Achilles say it out loud repeatedly. It also felt to me that Achilles talks about his feelings far more often and bluntly than other characters do, but again this could be because the story revolves around his 'rage.'

Regardless, even if it was purely for audience benefit, this is a behavior I have noticed with my adult ND friends, which is basically after a childhood feeling confused by what other people around them are doing or why they are reacting to things in a certain way, they have a strategy of very bluntly expressing themselves and where they are at in this situation. It can be far easier than trying to follow the subtleties of NT culture and just get whatever issue it is out in the open. Saying to someone "I am angry at you" can come off as overly aggressive and blunt depending on context, but it cuts to the heart of the matter. We can compare this with Odysseus, who does not express any very deep emotions at all in the Iliad (other than the fact that Thersites should shut the fuck up, anyway), presumably because that's nobody else's business.

The Embassy. Achilles' point to Odysseus that this entire war was started over a man stealing a woman is so correct and so ignored. He looks at this situation and says: Paris stole Helen, and Agamemnon rallied all the Achaeans to come make war with Troy. Agamemnon steals Briseis, and I'm meant to... keep fighting for him? In what way does this make sense?

Everyone around him sees it from a completely different perspective, basically that Achilles got angry over a girl. To Achilles this is not what it is about at all. And I'm with him on this. If stealing a woman is a sin egregious enough for thousands of Greeks to spend 10 years attempting to sack a city, then it is the same amount of egregious for Agamemnon to take Briseis and he's lucky Achilles didn't kill him immediately and sack Argos. He's getting off easy, which Achilles tells him.

Reading Odysseus lay out his argument followed by Achilles cutting him down with that bit of logic was like, yeah, I'm with Achilles, I don't even think he's being stubborn I just think he's right.

In the embassy chapter, Achilles also has his famous line about despising men who say one thing but mean another. Being very truthful and having difficulty noticing lies is another common trait of autism, and it would make sense for Achilles to find the dishonesty of his colleagues deeply annoying.

Old British scholars called him a sociopath. This might seem like a weird one, but I'm adding it into evidence. When I read the Iliad, I see Achilles as a very emotional person. Given that half the book is about his grief over Patroclus, I find calling him incapable of caring about others incredibly bizarre. But in addition to determining that these scholars who wrote these batshit essays have never once in their life had a friend, much less a friend that they loved, this kind of fits with how a certain type of old-fashioned scholar understands autism. I've actually been at neuroscience talks with crusty old assholes who talk about how autistics and orphans are incapable of empathy, and then use evidence that really just says to me they express empathy in a different way. (Yes, orphans. For real. A real talk I went to in like 2015. Did you know that orphans don't have feelings and don't care about the feelings of others. /s) Add to the old British tradition of their feral private school kids (which I believe they call public school? idk those assholes in blazers, you know the ones) literally caning each other for being smaller, weaker, or just different, and this to me is solid evidence that Achilles is neurodivergent and unwittingly awoke the bloodlust in these old (dead) bastards.

Speech Patterns. Not being able to read Ancient Greek, I can't actually say much about this one, but multiple scholars have commented that the way Achilles speaks in the Iliad is different to all the others. He has a unique way of speaking. Again, this is not necessarily an autistic trait, but it is common for autistic people to have different speech patterns than NT people, so it's more just a "hmmm, maybe" than actual evidence.

I feel like I'm forgetting other little things, but I'd have to fully reread the Iliad with this in mind to jog my memory, and maybe one day I will. TLDR; Achilles has a very rigid way of thinking and an uncommon way of expressing his emotions.

And as always, autism is a spectrum. Anything I've written about here isn't necessarily true of any autistic person out in the world.

[suncaptor]

literally every main character has autistic traits and ptsd let's be real.

[front-facing-pokemon]

[hundredblooms]

OH VAGUELY RELATED TO READING BUT i have received an ADHD diagnosis from two psychiatrists now and while it almost exactly resembles anxiety (which i've already been diagnosed with prior), there is one exception. people with adhd will hyperfocus on things they like, people with anxiety can't focus on anything- even things they like. why else would it be so hard to get my attention when i'm reading or gaming or playing solitaire? those are my hobbies, things i enjoy the most. of course i won't hear people calling me for things.

[godsfavoritescientist]

Ok time for a few Bill ADHD momence:

- executive dysfunction. Lots of factors contributed to weirdmageddon taking so long to happen, but executive dysfunction HAD to of contributed to this

- chronically understimulated. This guy watches through eyes across the multiverse, he is doing SO much all at once all the time. He is constantly fidgeting and floating around and changing topics when talking to people in their mindscapes, and when he is possessing someone he is coming up with new ways to stim like its an extreme sport.

- He is also very easily distractable and little things that aren't important to him easily slip his mind.

- Immediately dropping everything to do the funniest/most interesting thing he just thought of at any given moment is Such an indicator of understimulation and chronic boredom

[nullshocked]

There's a little counter in my head called "experiences my autistic friends talk about that make me go 'oh I do that a lot too'" and the higher the count goes the more I just kind of nudge it further and further away and pretend not to see it.

[earmo-imni]

Once again I’m recognizing myself in posts about autism despite not being diagnosed with autism.

Am I going to do anything about it this time? Probably not.

[lifeofmarvvel]

I can't focus for the life of me and I have an in person final in just over an hour, a presentation I need to finish making by Monday at 8am to give later that day, a take home final due on Tuesday, and another final I haven't begun to study for yet gahhhhhhhh