#ajax telamon

[incorrecthomer]

Telamon: this is my son Ajax and his brother Teucer Peleus: aren't they both your sons? why is Teucer not given the son title? Telamon: i don't like him

[ilions-end]

sorry still thinking about teucer within the iliad and the ajax and how much of his agency and sense of personhood must have come directly from big ajax supporting and defending him socially. teucer's a nothos born of a trojan concubine, which means he was banned from coming-of-age rituals (legally a child all his life) including voting, and a lowly archer besides, but thanks to his half-brother he's fighting and eating meals and living alongside actual kings and commanders.

and despite living among them for a decade in the war, the moment ajax dies and teucer tries to hold his own, his lesser status and foreignness is thrown in his face by those same rulers. he's fortunate that odysseus happens to want the same thing as him, and that odysseus holds legitimate status and sway, because on his own there's no way teucer would have convinced them ajax deserved proper burial rites, which would have condemned teucer further.

[ditoob]

Telamonian Ajax and Odysseus height comparison:

[catos-wound]

i think cato would have loved ajax son of telamon

[mrsracooney]

[longeyelashedtragedy]

In my mind you are still also the default owner of Tom Wlaschiha too :)

omg...not gonna lie, i'm honored!!!

[fatalism-and-villainy]

Can we reblog "Vita Sackville-Baggins"? It is a very striking concept but I notice it has few notes and don't wanna be responsible for any unwanted spread of the poast

it's fine, go for it

[hoeratius]

Hi guys, my commander died and we're trying to sort out his legacy, what should we do??

[doloneia]

thinking about this article i read that mentioned illegitimate children in ancient greece (athens in particular) and also this chapter from imagining illegitimacy in classical greek literature and how teucer's entire relationship to telamon (and by extension, ajax and eurysaces) is reliant on maintaining telamon's favor, and how when he loses that - after fighting for ten years to sack his mother's city, killing his own maternal family in the process - he is basically left without any kin at all. and i think it hits harder that teucer went to war against the side of his family that (in other circumstances) he would have been included in, since illegitimate children were typically raised by their mother's relatives. he gambled everything and he lost it all in return

[greekmythcomix]

Iliad chickens continued (from here: https://www.tumblr.com/greekmythcomix/722173151614844928/to-explain-my-chicken-obsession-me-im)

11) Lay-jax Tel-capon and Lay-jax Fowl-eus (Ajax Telamon and Ajax Oileus)

12) Ares. He's just not funny.

13) The Death of Sar-peck-don (Sarpedon) (With apologies to Euphronios)

It is very likely there will be more of this ridiculousness.

[katerinaaqu]

According to the 19th rhapsody/book of Odyssey, Odysseus's grandfather Autolycus named his grandson "Odysseus" because he was angry and the entire world (coming from the verb "οδύσσομαι" which means "be angry at")

As it happens with many Greek myths, the name is a self-fulfilled prophecy since Odysseus attracted plenty of anger in his life from the Trojans whose city practically singlehandedly he sacked, Aias the Telamon (aka Ajax the Great) for he defeated him in a battle taking Achilles's armor as a price till the anger of Polyphemus and Poseidon which pretty much sealed his fate and doomed him to wander about the seas for more than 10 years.

However the name is also extremely symbolic given that Odysseus's anger was the reason he committed hubris and bragged his winning against Polyphemus becoming the literal plot starter of Odyssey.

It also means something else; Odysseus in his anger says "I am Odysseus" to Polyphemus. You may also say that he also indirectly said "I am furious"

[babyrdie]

I'm really used to the idea of gremlin Achilles in the fandom, but you're really making me consider the idea of a Pat who is also annoying!

Oh yeah, my Patroclus is really kind of annoying in a sweet way. I give you this! He really wasn't the cutest kid (as I said here) and I constantly have him purposely bother Achilles for fun (as I said here: 1, 2) or have a moment of "oh, now I understand why he can handle Achilles. It's because he's also annoying" in other characters (like in these posts: 1, 2). I did this because I wanted to avoid having him and Achilles fit into too specific roles. "That's the mature one, that's the gremlin and that's it", things like this. You know, Patroclus and Achilles have that whole similarity thing and not fitting into strongly established roles in terms of their relationship.

I really don't think that terms like friend, family or lover alone are enough to define their relationship. Not because, for example, other couples weren't friends and lovers or that there weren't complex friendships and families. It's simply you can't decently explain their relationship status without having to offer at least 2 or 3 terms. For example, when talking about Penelope and Odysseus, you can say "Odysseus is Penelope's husband" and that is enough. Yes, they were friends too, but you don't really NEED to clarify that to be understandable, that's a bonus. Yes, Helen was friends with Menelaus yet was his wife, but if you say their relationship is that they're husband and wife, that is enough to be understood. The rest is bonus explanation, it isn't completely necessary for understanding. Peleus and Telamon are portrayed as having a friendly relationship, but if you say that they're brothers that is context enough. You don't NEED to say "brothers and friends". Antilochus was Achilles' companion, but if you say he was Achilles' friend, that's context enough.

However, if you say that Patroclus is Achilles' cousin, that isn't enough. I don't think that saying "they're cousins" clarifies the relationship in the same way that saying "Achilles and Ajax are cousins" can clarify, for example, Ajax's reaction to Achilles' death. In theory, Patroclus and Ajax are cousins ​​too, but no one would describe their relationship that way, you'd more likely mention that they're both in the army or something. If you say "Patroclus is a friend of Achilles" that isn't enough. Achilles had friendships with other Achaeans, is his relationship with Patroclus similar to that with other Achaeans? Not really, the closest we have to that is Antilochus and generally the relationship gets stronger precisely after Patroclus dies (it existed before, but got stronger). If you say "they're lovers" that is also not enough, it isn't the same as saying "Deidamia and Achilles were lovers" and that is enough. The fact that Patroclus serves Achilles is central to the relationship, but you can't describe Patroclus as a "servant" and think that justifies the story enough. Automedon also served Achilles, is it the same thing?

I'll use Wikipedia as an example. Not because Wikipedia is the center of the world's knowledge, but just because it's interesting to see how editors have handled relationships.

On Antilochus' page, they described he was a friend of Achilles. He was also a battle companion, but "friend" explains it well.

On Ajax's page, they described him as Achilles' cousin. He was also a friend and a battle companion, but "cousin" explains it well.

On Deidamia's page, they describe her as one of Achilles' lovers (depending on the version, wife. But this is still connected to the idea of ​​romantic interest). Considering they spent time together, she was probably also a friend, but saying "lover"/"wife" explains it well.

On Automedon's page, they describe him as Achilles' charioteer. He was also a battle companion, but "charioteer" explains it well.

On Patroclus's page, they felt the need to, in a single section, clarify that he is a childhood friend, intimate war companion and lover.

This is literally the introductory part of Patroclus' page, it's not even a "Relationship with Achilles" or "Early Days" part, it's the introduction. And by the way, the "Relationship with Achilles" part really exists precisely because it is something that needs more text to be explained. You don't have a "Relationship with Achilles" explaining contexts and possibilities in the case of Antilochus (here as an example of a friend), Ajax (here as an example of a family), Deidamia (here as an example of a lover) and Automedon (here as an example of a subordinate ).

Modernly, perhaps the most comprehensive term could be "partner", as this can refer either to a close friend, to a trusted person in a professional sense, to a person on the same team and to a lover. To be a partner with someone means to be trusted in some way, to share with them. So I think "partner" is the broader term for them. There is "companion", which is actually used in the texts, but I feel that it refers to an idea more linked to the army while "partner" extends beyond that.

So when I write about Patroclus with Achilles, I try to cover as many types as possible. I use them being cousins, I use them being childhood friends, I use them being subordinate and leader, I use them being lovers, I use them being companions. In the interest of further moving them away from specific labels, I don't avoid Achilles' interest in other people, such as Deidamia. To me, they aren't monogamous. They don't fit into this idea exclusively associated with the "lover" sphere because they aren't just lovers. Patroclus isn't worried about losing Achilles to a woman for the simple fact that he does not see himself competing for the same position. For example, what position does Deidamia occupy? Wife, maybe (depends on the version). But what then? It's not as if Patroclus was Achilles' husband in the strictest sense of the word or strongly desired it. He isn't losing his position to Deidamia nor is Deidamia losing her position to him, they're in different positions.

So that was it. Firstly, I started not seeing them as a specific relationship. I still use terms like "dating" because, honestly, there is no other word to describe when it started in a more romantic context per se. And then I did the same with the roles in the relationship, which, because it doesn't have a specific label, doesn't have restrictive roles. And so I did that with the personalities.

Yes, Achilles is more immature than Patroclus. But Patroclus isn't always a wise, patient hermit (for example, he isn't immediately against what Achilles does in The Iliad. Only later does he show disagreement. When talking to Nestor in Book 11, he talks quite sharply about Achilles too. His last words to Hector in Book 16, when he says that Hector only killed him because Apollo and Zeus helped and that he could have defeated Hector several times if it weren't for that). Yes, Patroclus is kinder than Achilles. But Achilles still cares for those who are close to him and is capable of kindness (e.g. the kylix in which he heals Patroclus, how he treats Antilochus, how Ajax is allowed to go to Leuke, how he asks about Peleus and Neoptolemus to Odysseus, how he courts Deidamia by praising her weaving ability, etc). Yes, Achilles is more recognized for violence than Patroclus. But Patroclus is still capable of being violent (e.g. he was angry enough as a child over data that he accidentally killed a boy. He did everything he did in Book 16).

For this reason, in my other headcanon post, initially they had switched roles. Patroclus was the most angry, Achilles was the calmest. Later, as life went on, the roles changed due to external influences. And when it was time for Patroclus to "be Achilles", what he did was basically return to his old self, still a part of him. It was a way to show that they're so similar that, in fact, both have the potential to play similar roles. I make it so that, even though Patroclus is the one who plays the subordinate role, Achilles is the more emotional one. Because, thus, Achilles has power over Patroclus in the hierarchical sense and Patroclus has power over Achilles in the emotional sense. They're balanced, they can both have the power and both can lose it, it just depends on the context. I try to do this in the simplest things because not everything needs to be dramatic, so in my post where I have Patroclus obey or serve Achilles I have Achilles change his mind about something/go off topic because of something sentimental he wants from Patroclus. And of course, being similar is not being identical. They still have their own differences and identities. There are things that one has that the other really doesn't have, that's also why they're complementary.

I want the other characters to see Patroclus as the most approachable person (as they really do in The Iliad), but at the same time notice why he and Achilles get along (I've only done this in small things like Patroclus being friendly annoying to Automedon and Ajax).

So that's basically why I like the idea of ​​a Patroclus being at least a little annoying hahaha but of course, it's all headcanon, so you always have the option to use another approach!

[thoodleoo]

my brain is so fried from trying to research for my thesis and i ended up in greek/roman mythology (not my field in any way) and idk if i'm stupid but i can't find an easy answer so i thought maybe (pretty please) you could tell me just a quick answer if u know - is talemon (son of aecus/father of greek hero ajax?) also represented in roman mythology?

if you don't want to answer this or don't know, feel free to ignore this

i'm assuming you mean telamon? i don't think he shows up in any significant aspect, but roman mythology isn't my area of expertise

i'd look at least a little bit into the history of the town of talamone to see if anyone other than diodorus siculus connected its etymology to telamon, but i don't have any other leads than that

[ditoob]

Powerful Telamonian Ajax, bulwark of the Achaeans, son of Telamon

[littlesparklight]

Thinking about the Argo's journey again and who's going etc... (this is using my own headcanon for characters' ages):

Laertes - I am not taking my ~sixteen year old son with me, besides, this will be a good learning experience for him. Tyndareos - Oh, sure, I'll let my twin sixteen year olds go off to Iolkos and then on a journey of uncertain length and danger without me. :) There are other adults there that can look after them - and one of my sons is a son of Zeus, it's fine. Caeneus - (Has at least one, maybe two sons with him, somewhere in the older teenager-twenty year old range) Family outing! :D Telamon - Even if I could fetch my son easily from Chiron given we're relatively close, he stays there. (*there's not really any source that has Ajax training with Chiron as far as I can remember, but it makes sense so why not.)

Other things of note; is Herakles glaring daggers at Augeas on the other side of the gathering/ship until he's left behind? Do the Dioskouroi and the Apharetidai get along, still, or do they already have beef? (Grown men having issue with teenagers though...) Tydeus and Amphiaraus having a fun little vacation before the attack on Thebes in a couple years...

[mrsracooney]

They fooled me, lol. Those aren't fighting poses any more 😆