#also classism doesn’t exist

[starbuck]

what post r ppl leaving those tags on?!?

it’s an ofm.d post where i go over Izzy’s death foreshadowing… idek why people are reblogging it now bc i made it back when there were only eight episodes out, so it’s totally out of date, but there it is…

And like. tbf, rereading it, i guess my position isn’t ENTIRELY clear, but my thing is that i LOVE death foreshadowing and when characters i like have symbolically meaningful deaths, NOT that i hate him and was wishing death upon him, as these people are.

So it’s like. I see where they’re getting that from, and they’re absolutely entitled to their own opinions, but that is just very much NOT where i was coming from and really annoying to see in my notes with no way to block it out without just deleting the post (which i don’t wanna do bc i’m still proud of it, even if it’s out of date now).

And I know it’s not news that that fandom is a trash fire, but it was soooooooo much smaller and chiller when i made that post… it really just felt like me and my Boat Mutuals back then… And as soon as the fandom started getting big and toxic, i disengaged altogether and just enjoyed it with my friends for a bit until it lost its shine and we all moved on. I’m sure i’ll enjoy s2 with my friends again when it comes out, but the larger fandom doesn’t exist to me and i’ll probably do some mass-blocking ahead of s2 coming out, just to be safe bc, just from this tiny interaction, i’m tired of it.

@marcusbrutus - tagging you since you also asked what fandom it was about.

[heterophobicdyke]

one thing to know about me is that i have absolutely no empathy for women who know they’re genuinely attracted to men (including in their past) and yet call themselves a lesbian

[idkwhatimdoingbutslay]

Interesting how some tend to analyze and look at the Arcane verse the same way they look at our own world. Only ever leads to misconceptions and misinterpretations.

Obviously, Arcane is inspired by what different nations around our world go through, but they also haven’t experienced all things that we have that lead to even more oppression and discrimination (ie. Black enslavement, women not having the right to vote or work, non-men consistently being victims of men’s abuse, gay marriage being illegal, colonization and genocide of particular races).

[arsonistman]

Norway: we’re so accepting of everyone😊😊

Norway when anyone who isn’t mainstream or middle class or over exist: 😡😡😡 wtf naver, emo, suicide squad 🤬🤬🤬

[thevelaryons]

I’ve always found it interesting that of the lowborn/bastard women in the DotD, Marilda is the only one who doesn’t get slandered and insulted in the Westerosi history books.

Speaking specifically about the women who were rumored to have had affairs with noblemen, the women (Sara Snow/Alys Rivers/Nettles) in particular get derogatory descriptions for various reasons. The men they are linked to all either die or are unable to do anything about the rumors (Sara: her rumored lover Jace dies and her brother Cregan is far away in the North when those rumors become a thing in the South years later/Alys: her rumored lover Aemond dies and her son is obviously too young to do anything about the insults people are saying about his mother/Nettles: her rumored lover Daemon dies). Regardless of whether any of the rumors were true or not, it's still the women in the relationships who were described in a negative manner. Even men like Aemond or Daemon don't get as slandered, despite their more controversial actions.

Sara may or may not have existed (the fact that her existence alone is doubted speaks for itself) but in the history books she is described as an "unwashed" bastard. Even the fact she was a virgin at the time of her affair with Jace is called into question. Alys gets descriptors like "slattern" and "cow". She is reviled as a seductress and witch who would sacrifice her own children. Nettles gets insulted as well, both by characters around her and the maesters/septons recording the histories. Beyond the classism, there is also a racial angle to the insults with her skin colour always being at the forefront when she gets called "dirty" and "creature". It’s unfortunate but Westerosi society is unfair to women, especially those of a lower social class, and so they do often have to rely on the men in their lives, whether that’s a male lover/husband, their father, brother(s) or son(s) as a source of protection. Characters like Sara/Alys/Nettles don't get that protection.

Then you get to Marilda's descriptions in the book, and it's completely clean. Not a single insult is uttered against her despite her supposed involvement with two different Velaryon men. Whether her affair was with Corlys or Laenor, it occurred at the time when they were married men. Laenor is dead by the time when he's claimed to be the father of Marilda's sons. But Corlys is alive and well. Not to mention, he's a very well respected figure in Westerosi society. That being said, I can’t see Corlys doing any major PR control here since he does not have the means to do so.

Alyn, however, could ensure his mother did not get negative remarks. He's the one said to have fostered close ties to the Citadel and a positive relationship with the Faith. On more than one occasion, he was anointed by the High Septon himself, which is something that's typically reserved for the King or his Kingsguard. So I think Alyn might’ve used that influence to his favor.

While Alyn does seem like the type who doesn’t care much about what others think of him, he clearly respects his mother so I doubt he would want her to have a bad reputation. Even concerning the rumors of Alyn's potential affairs, the maesters are somewhat dismissive about them and call the rumors "unreliable". They don't give much credence to what third parties are saying on such matters. As for Alyn's mother, she is spoken of with nothing but respect and even flattery at times.

History is truly written by the victors.

[mxtxfanatic]

One thing that I really appreciate about mxtx’s stories is that even though the common people are shown to have an understanding of hierarchy and a healthy skepticism—dare I say, disdain at times—for the elite class at the top of each world’s hierarchy, that doesn’t mean that their every judgment on the subject is right.

Tgcf is a perfect example of this in multiple arcs. The peoples of Xianle and Wuyong know that a person with money can bend the ear of a god, and the nobility of Xianle, specifically, even bar the poor from entering Xie Lian’s temples without first paying an entry fee. Lang Ying leads the Yong’an refugees to rebel because he sees the corruption girding Xianle society. However, these same peoples also believe in the hierarchy they despise for oppressing them. When the beloved princes of the respective kingdoms are unable to save their kingdoms from certain doom because they are unwilling to sacrifice the lives of others, those same citizens turn on them. Worse yet, Xie Lian and Jun Wu were the only gods who were about treating their worshippers equally regardless of status, while the gods who their former followers turned to for help were the very same ones that had watched them suffer, gleefully waiting for them to turn on their gods so that they could poach new worshippers. In the end, the people end up casting aside the gods who defied the heavens in an attempt to save them, in favor of worshipping the gods who wanted them to perish. We see this same level of misapplied understanding on smaller levels too: Mu Qing understanding classism but only taking issue with it when it negatively impacts him, personally; Lang Ying’s descendants devolving into the same kind of wasteful nobles that Lang Ying had deposed; the people in the temple who choose to stab Xie Lian to preserve their own life because “you’re meant to save us.”

Similar things happen in svsss and mdzs. In svsss, humans are reasonably wary of demons (who hunt and eat humans in this story) and look up to cultivators as their protectors, but broadly applying this allowed the corrupt Old Palace Master to weaponize that rightful wariness to harm his innocent targets: Su Xiyan, Tianlang-jun, Luo Binghe, and Shen Qingqiu. Had the common people witnessed a group of adult cultivators chasing a fearful toddler around be so convinced of the “righteousness” of the cultivators they admire? If so, would we, the audience, still look to the crowd as moral? At the same time in mdzs, the common people actually don’t look up to the righteous cultivation clans as inherently good, only a necessary expense—have you the funds—but even that is a weapon. Thirteen years after the first siege, a farming couple discusses how terrifying the power Wei Wuxian wielded was, grateful to the great cultivation clans for having killed him without any understanding that Wei Wuxian was the most upstanding cultivator of his generation.

In all of these examples, though the common people have an accurate understanding of systemic violence and the dangers present in their worlds, they are not always able to accurately apply that understanding on an individual or personal level, especially if their morals do not align with the idea that said violence is an inherent wrong. The common people in tgcf are not rioting against the concept of monarchies and nobility or the elitism of the gods, even as they know they suffer from it. The common people in svsss still shy away from demons, even though they’ve likely been harmed more times by a passing cultivator or rich person than they could even claim to have seen a demon. The common people in mdzs still turn to major cultivation clans for help and consider them to be overall moral people even with their publicly immoral behavior. None of these groups move to challenge the systemic violence despite knowing it exists on a personal level, which is what makes it very poignant when a character in these books does. Why did that person choose to speak up and stand out while most others didn’t? And what message is mxtx teaching us by showing us this character?

Knowledge, an understanding of systems of violence, and hierarchical placement does not make morality. Moral alignment paired with matching actions do. And without the latter, the former can be easily manipulated by bad-faith actors to reinforce the very systems that create the ills of society, regardless of what position one is born into on the social hierarchy.

[rewritingcanon]

for the ask ship game: drastoria, jeddy and romione

romione: i feel like i shouldnt even talk and let the books do the talking for me. the slowburn was ferocious. the relationship building ate every other hp couple up. with each installation the verse puts out that includes them in it they’re even more in love. it makes me want to rip my hair out that so much romione content is sidelined for other ships and only exist as a side pairing to other ships. ron is so clearly the only one who makes sense for hermione and vice versa hermione to ron. i have never seen a good argument from a romione anti about why they shouldn’t be together or how they would not work out realistically. i can chalk every argument up to classism, a critique of ron’s portrayal in the movies, or a misunderstanding of character flaws that are exacerbated by PUBERTY and the general emotional instability of an average teenager. you look me in the eye and tell me you have never tweaked out when you were teenager. you look me in the eye and tell me that having magic wouldnt make that worse. i’ve actually already made an essay-long post about romione so lets not even get me started on it LOL

drastoria: i’ve already screamed about my reasons here.

jeddy: jeddy is hard because teddy and james sirius are mostly fanon so it’s difficult to ascertain whether they would make sense or not based on personality. we basically know nothing about teddy’s personality and get a handful of lines from james in the cursed child. they seem both to have a rebellious side— james opting to disobey his parents to have a good laugh and the rita skeeter article written about teddy at the quidditch world cup final (which could have been complete slander knowing skeeter) but from what little we do know— teddy is very close with the potter family (lily basically calls him family), presumably since he was born or at least very young since they consider each other family. teddy is also six years older than james. going off that alone, if teddy was around when james was very young, or even when he was born, then no, jeddy doesn’t make sense. it would be a bit creepy, no? fanonly, i’m 50/50– i’ve read some pretty shit jeddy fics but it comes with the territory of liking scorbus so i have to suck it up 😭 but yeah, its a no from me.

[dontbotherwiththepronunciation]

This escalated a lot, (which was a good distraction from everything so I'm taking that as a good thing), so now I have to give:

Warnings: Discussions and mentions of all the horrible things we warn for in Theon's Plotline, particularly the ones about depersonhood, sexual violence, casual violence, classism, and so on and so on + a few suicide jokes and links to artistic depictions of the aftermath of rape.

I moved a few weeks ago and haven't been able to unpack because I got injured during the moving and my other arm is also fucked up because of something else that happened this year and today I finally got to clean around and actually do stuff and arrange my room and I started with my book shelf, which obviously means I didn't actually do much because I just started rereading whatever book I hadn't seen in a while got to my hands. And after realising that I certainly have a type for narratives and characters I started thinking about Hannah from Until Dawn and how amazing it was to have a dead female character with little to no characterisation that subverted the "haunt the narrative" thing we see in many of the asoiaf girls from the dead ladies club and yeah I am thinking about Kyra again and that is not a good mentality.

Elia and Lyanna are given a personality and a face through those who loved them, they feel real because the pain of those who mourn them feels real. Even Joanna Lannister gets some of that through what little we find out of her.

Kyra is a dead lady but she’s not a member of the Dead Ladies Club™. She doesn’t get that privilege. The only person who thinks of her is Theon and it is not done lovingly.

Kyra has a personality we are not privy too. She is a satellite character that is mentioned exclusively in relation to Theon, even in the exception of Bran's POV. Her existence is conditioned to Theon.

Jeyne Poole, although often called one, isn't a satellite character. From the very beginning of the story she is already a presence in multiple POV character's lives, even if her role in the story and her characterisation is weak; She is Sansa's friend, Arya's bully, even Catelyn mentions her and in relation to Robb, but we don't ever see her interacting with her father and none of those characters seems very concerned of her well-being. I don't even know if Ned was planning on sending her with Arya & Sansa or if she was supposed to stay with her father. She later ascends a bit by becoming a secondary but fundamental character in Theon's POV and the Northern plot.

Kyra however is a blank page with a name. This isn't meant as something derogatory. I still have flashbacks of my 2016 experience in this fandom and the way the only kyra stan I ever met would wage a war on jeyne p fans. This isn't my intention.

With exception of Theon there are four other characters that are mentioned to have interacted with her.

Bessa, another serving wench who is implied to have participated on a threesome with her and Theon some time before Bran V, AGOT (Oooh she and Theon were bi4bi!)

Wex Pyke, is mentioned to have slept at the foot of Theon's bed, a bed on which Kyra slept as well. (Oooh Dog imagery and the implied possible witnessing of rape!)

Ramsay Snow...not going to write that. We all know what happened.

Ben Bones, "[...] Even if we do escape, Lord Ramsay will hunt us down, him and Ben Bones and the girls." generalised statement by Theon during his escape with Jeyne. Ben Bones isn't mentioned in relation to Kyra and him being caught during their failed escape.

These aren't even brief versions of her connections, I'm reaching out with many of them.

What else do we know about her?

Ok. She is a serving wench and probably works at the Smoking Log (Source: Bran)

She blushes easily and seems to be embarrassed by public talks of her sex life (Source: Theon)

She seems like an eager lover and seemed to be excited when Theon first took her to Winterfell (Source: Theon)

She had never been at the castle before (Source: Theon)

She acted as the big spoon as they slept together (Source: Theon)

She still refers to Theon as "M'lord" during early ACOK, even if the aforementioned positioning of the two would have us believe there might be more emotional intimacy or closeness between the two (Source: Theon)

Theon raped her (Source: Theon)

Ramsay possibly raped her (Source: Ramsay saying he wanted to bed her)

She was taken prisoner with the other women and children who were at Winterfell after Ramsay sacked the castle. (Source: Theon)

At some point she managed to set herself free, stole the keys to Theon's cell, liberated him, asked him to help her back to Winterfell and failed (Source: Theon)

She threw a rock at Ramsay when he caught her and Theon again, and missed by a foot (Source: Theon)

She was mauled to death by hounds (Source: Theon)

Ramsay named a hound meant to kill other women during future hunts after her (Source: Theon)

He had run before. Years ago, it seemed, when he still had some strength in him, when he had still been defiant. That time it had been Kyra with the keys. She told him she had stolen them, that she knew a postern gate that was never guarded. "Take me back to Winterfell, m'lord," she begged, pale-faced and trembling. "I don't know the way. I can't escape alone. Come with me, please." And so he had. The gaoler was dead drunk in a puddle of wine, with his breeches down around his ankles. The dungeon door was open and the postern gate had been unguarded, just as she had said. They waited for the moon to go behind a cloud, then slipped from the castle and splashed across the Weeping Water, stumbling over stones, half-frozen by the icy stream. On the far side, he had kissed her. "You've saved us," he said. Fool. Fool. It had all been a trap, a game, a jape. Lord Ramsay loved the chase and preferred to hunt two-legged prey. All night they ran through the darkling wood, but as the sun came up the sound of a distant horn came faintly through the trees, and they heard the baying of a pack of hounds. "We should split up," he told Kyra as the dogs drew closer. "They cannot track us both." The girl was crazed with fear, though, and refused to leave his side, even when he swore that he would raise a host of ironborn and come back for her if she should be the one they followed. Within the hour, they were taken. One dog knocked him to the ground, and a second bit Kyra on the leg as she scrambled up a hillside. The rest surrounded them, baying and snarling, snapping at them every time they moved, holding them there until Ramsay Snow rode up with his huntsmen. He was still a bastard then, not yet a Bolton. "There you are," he said, smiling down at them from the saddle. "You wound me, wandering off like this. Have you grown tired of my hospitality so soon?" That was when Kyra seized a stone and threw it at his head. It missed by a good foot, and Ramsay smiled. "You must be punished." Reek remembered the desperate, frightened look in Kyra's eyes. She had never looked so young as she did in that moment, still half a girl, but there was nothing he could do. She brought them down on us, he thought. If we had separated as I wanted, one of us might have gotten away. - Reek I, ADWD

A few things:

1)

2) Kyra's own involvement

I've often seen people take Theon's inner thoughts as a fact. Most of us are convinced that this was all something Ramsay planned all along, that any possible escape was frustrated from the very beginning. I have often even seen fan works in which Kyra knows and tells Theon that Ramsay is planning to hunt them, but when looking closer to the text I find it difficult to believe that everything was a set up. In Theon's memories he mentions how the gaoler was drunk and had his breeches down, which I think implies that maybe it was Kyra who deliberately planned this. That maybe it was her who orchestrated him getting frunk and eventually also had sex with him, perhaps to get closer and take the keys. "She knew a poster gate that was never guarded" also implies that she wasn't held prisoner in the same way Theon was, but maybe was set up to become a slave/servant like Arya at Harrenhall and spent enough time roaming "free" to notice such things. If this was the case and it was her plan instead of Ramsay (who might or might not have maybe set up her environment and conditioned her thoughts of escape) then I think we can maybe add some other traits to her characterisation; we can assume she is observant, resilient and very brave.

3) I wanted to name this section "The Kiss" but then Klimt came to mind so we are naming it Frame 00:09:31 and Frame 00:09:38 of Belladonna of Sadness (tw the links for artistic depictions of the aftermath of rape)

There is often speculation going on whether the lack of something textual in these books can be seen as proof for something else. Canon romantic Jon/Sansa and the idea that Dany considers the Dothraki subhuman are often backed up by this sort of thought process (I admittedly don't believe in any of the aforementioned examples) but I don’t think we’ve ever seen it used in cases like that of Kyra, where I personally find it more fitting. Particularly when it comes to that scene and how Theon doesn't describe her response. I have always seen people take this as something reciprocal and sometimes even beautiful, and Theon internally chastising himself as he thinks of it is often attributed to thinking there was a chance of escape, when it could as well be him chastising himself because he kissed her without really considering how frightening the entire situation must have been for her. Her reasoning for setting him free is that he knows how to go back, not that she loves him or has forgive him. She is said to tremble as she pleads for help, her face is pale, and I can't help but wonder if part of her fear also came from having to beg her rapist to accompany her in her escape.

Based on her throwing a stone at Ramsay, who probably raped her in the past, I like to believe that when he kissed her she screamed, bit Theon and pushed him away.

4) The Girl

There are a few things in that text about Theon & Kyra that in hindsight remind me of Theon & Jeyne.

Some of it is relatively obvious and I have mentioned it in the past, such as the

"You've saved us," he said. - Reek I, ADWD

"You saved me," Jeyne had whispered, - Theon I, TWOW

and

"We should split up," he told Kyra as the dogs drew closer. "They cannot track us both." The girl was crazed with fear, though, and refused to leave his side, [...] If we had separated as I wanted, one of us might have gotten away. - Reek I, ADWD

"Stay close to me," Jeyne said. "Don't leave me." "I will be right beside you," Theon promised - Theon I, ADWD

but also

"Take me back to Winterfell, m'lord," she begged, pale-faced and trembling. "I don't know the way. I can't escape alone. Come with me, please." - Reek I, ADWD

He put a finger to her lips. "We can talk about that later. You need to be quiet now. Come with us. With me. We will take you away from here. Away from him." - Theon I, ADWD

and

Reek remembered the desperate, frightened look in Kyra's eyes. She had never looked so young as she did in that moment, still half a girl, but there was nothing he could do. - Reek I, ADWD

The eyes of the bride were brown. Big and brown and full of fear. It was not right that she should look to him for rescue.  - The Prince of Winterfell, ADWD

Overall my perception of things tells me that there was a drastic change in Theon's character after her death. It is him who this time has comed up with a plan and has to beg/repeatedly ask for someone else to accompany him. Something I find peculiar is how he describes fear being visible through their eyes and the sight of it makes him feel guilt over his lack of agency.

When comparing his behaviour during the failed escape and the flight we see that he no longer plans on leaving Jeyne in order to escape by himself (and we see him prove that during TWOW when he comments on how her ribs broke so HE CARRIED HER jdsfskdjfnsdkjf aren't you supposed to be emaciated???). And while I find that a very noble development, as I consider salvation to be symbiotic, it leads me to wonder:

5) The AU

So many fanworks often depict Theon holding her hand and going ahead as they run, it's a beautiful image but it doesn't follow into what the canon is telling us.

Kyra being the active one in this event, her having to be the one who not only approaches Theon with thoughts of escape but also begs for his help, implying he might have been hesitant at first, she being the one who refuses to leave him although he is set off on their(/his?) chances of a successful escape being higher if they part ways, all this points to him probably not wanting to hold her hand through it, much less lead her through his same path.

And then I think of Theon's promise

The girl was crazed with fear, though, and refused to leave his side, even when he swore that he would raise a host of ironborn and come back for her if she should be the one they followed. - Reek I, ADWD

Would he? Would he have returned with a host if ironborn to get her? I don't think he would have. I don't think he was consciously lying to her or that he would just forget of her and leave with no remorse and never think of her again. I think it would have become inconvenient to return and he would have told himself it is impossible and she would haunt him nonetheless, but what consolation is that for her?

If he had miraculously managed to get to his sister or to Dagmer Cleftjaw, had miraculously managed to rapidly heal and regain his strength, would he have been able to get himself a host of loyal ironborn that would follow him far far far into the land, away from the realms of he who dwells beneath the waves, just to save some random girl he used to bed? Ad given how emotionally constipated is, how introverted, how he rarely displays vulnerability, what could he have said in order to change their mind?

Even her physical appearance, something that Theon, a somewhat libidinous young man, might have remarked on, is omitted. She doesn't have thick auburn hair, which could have made some readers use her as "proof" for him being "psychosexually" (another word most people in here don't know how to define but will use regardless) attracted to Robb/Sansa/Cat. The eyes of the girl aren't "big and brown" for me and a few other delusional people to claim as "foreshadowing" for a future romance. There aren't any mentions of her having a sharp nose that could have made us think of her as a semblance of his own family back at the Islands. There is nothing. She is nothing.

Sometimes we readers attempt to give closure to Kyra through fan work; I have seen art depicting her as a ghost "forgiving" Theon, there are fics in which Theon takes care of the hound that was named after her or (I am guilty of this too) him taking care of Jeyne is somehow seen by the narrative as atonement for his past mistreatment of Kyra. None of these works are inherently bad or disrespectful and I can appreciate what they do and I enjoy many of them (@/ghostlyturncloaks has a very beautiful fic involving Theon and Kyra, the hound), but none of them will give Kyra, the actual Kyra who used to breath and was then killed by hounds, closure because that is simply impossible to do given how she is not a real character compared to those who surround her. When people in this fandom talk about "stanning the girls who suffer/are victims" it is often done either in a holier-than-thou light or in a derogative manner but it never refers to Kyra because Kyra isn't allowed to be a person in the text.

Taking care of Jeyne or the hound won't make things right for her and there are no reasons for her to forgive Theon when Theon refuses to even think of the act with indisputable textual remorse. We can read between the lines and realise that Theon feels guilt, the fact she "and her keys" haunt him is already proof of that, but does he feel guilt for her terrible death, for him raping her, for how little he valued her as a person or for all of these together?

And I don't think that Theon is inherently a bad person for not valuing her and not being interested in her as a person, I think such situations are cruelly casual and rarely intentional. I think most people across their life will come to realise that they should have valued someone more. Our feelings aren't reciprocal and that isn't necessarily a sign of vileness. And, to my shame, I admit that part of my obsession with my unlucky trio of Jeyne, Falia and Kyra is somewhat motivated by my own feelings of depersonalisation and overall worthlessness and irrelevance.

It is difficult to explain, at most I can maybe compare it to the way Dany has managed to appeal to so many woc through her journey. Cersei, Dany, Arya and Sansa are all well written, interesting and profound characters that will go down in history both in and out of universe as such. Kyra won’t, neither will Falia, the Jeynes might have but they weren’t enough and were quickly replaced without many mourning that change in the way we mourn Daenerys' popularised end game as a mad queen or Arya's popularised endgame as a badass assassin without any nuisance. And I can understand why! This anger is purely mine!

With Kyra there is a world to explore, but only as long as Theon is no longer there. We can't give her a respectful characterisation if our only source and voice is that of Theon, if we were to that it would probably be highly ooc. But then again we can't even interact with her without Theon being in the picture. What happened to Bessa? Was she killed during the Winterfell sack? Were they friends? I imagine they were close if the two worked together and also had a threesome. Did she feel fear and maybe a pang of jealousy when she saw her being summoned to the castle to never come back to their inn? Did Kyra have a family? Maybe they were working the fields in the late summer/early autumn and were hoping to see her in winter again. I will be arrogant by referring to the images meme I recently made for her but yeah, Nathaniel Russel's fake fliers you will go down in my memory:

Even something as benign and well meaning as giving her a face, be it by a film/show/comic-adaptation or fan art, is somewhat counterproductive to what I think might have been aimed by the writer through her being a faceless pain. A face can make someone become sympathetic or interesting, meanwhile Kyra is pain unbridled and without any mentioned outer or inner beauty to get us to be invested in her. I might have my headcanons for her, with and without Theon, but I am not meant to have them.

The most common Tumblr tag for the sharing of Kyra related posts is "#kyra and her keys" and although this will be perceived by may as a holier than thou attitude I think it speaks on itself that we readers, the few readers who care enough about Kyra to dedicate a post to her, have decided to refer to her with a concept Theon chose for her. We define her through Theon without any real consideration for her own feelings. "#kyra asoiaf" has about three posts last I checked.

[esther-dot]

IMO, I don’t think A stans who attack Sansa for her classism truly cares about it. I mean, they want A to be queen/lady (and there’s nothing wrong with wanting that) but such an ending would only be reinforcing the structure they’re critising.

And it’s great and important that A plays with lowborn children and tried to defend Mycah but that doesn’t make her a marxist revolutionary lol, it doesn’t erase her own classism. All nobles are classist, a few of them bother to treat peasants relatively well (the Starks, Edmure, etc) but that unfair system still exists. You can’t have nobility without inequality.

And I'll paste this one in too:

Unpopular opinion but if Arya’s stans genuinely believed in her as someone who isn’t classist, they would imagine her leading a social revolution that topples and destroy feudalism. Not someone who serves the conception of hereditary monarchy, serfdom (despite treating them with humanity), hierarchical social categories, etc. Arya as QITN would be a reformist, not a revolutionnary.

(These are so old, I can’t remember which post prompted them, apologies!)

So, I never thought more than being a good leader within the system was a possibility? During GoT they played up this idea that Dany was gonna change the system, "break the wheel," but that was mainly to hide the fact that going to war for a crown was a selfish thing to do, that she wasn't a hero for choosing that path. Considering how Martin has written about the tragedy of the Starks losing Winterfell, the little boys being chased from their home, I never imagined that his ending would involve a king or queen turning around and doing that to another noble child? IMO, there was never going to be any seizing and divvying up wealth.

In ASOIAF, it seems like the focus is much more on having a leader who will be capable of maintaining peace and delivering justice and taking care of some practical concerns. It never even occurred to me to expect an end to feudalism? So, yeah, I would agree that the most anyone could be was a reformist, but I didn't even think that was the idea (in the way fans would mean it) that Martin was tracking. It didn't seem to me that he was gonna do away with nobles, only that he was saying a good noble won't allow his smallfolk to be mistreated and wouldn't ruin their lives for the sake of a crown. I thought that's where the Robb criticism comes in. Robb should have chosen peace, not more fighting.

I also thought the good noble was being presented with Ned. Protect the vulnerable, be horrified by the death of the innocent, adhere to these personal values even when they are in defiance of what your world demands, even when it means betrayal of a "brother" or treason against your king. Obviously, Ned fell short of the ideal, but that's why his children will rise to power, because they have the same core values that Martin wants us to look at as good.

Personally, I think Arya being rebellious and kicking against the rules that annoy her is fun? My little sister was a tomboy, and I have sympathy for Sansa, but I'm amused by Arya. However, I do not attribute as much, uh, let's say, virtue to her behavior as others do. Nor do I attach the same amount of condemnation to Sansa (who recognizes class distinctions) that others do. To me, Martin used the Trident incident to illustrate how the class differences worked because it's a grievance of his that writers ignore them:

And that’s another of my pet peeves about fantasies. The bad authors adopt the class structures of the Middle Ages; where you had the royalty and then you had the nobility and you had the merchant class and then you have the peasants and so forth. But they don’t’ seem to realize what it actually meant. They have scenes where the spunky peasant girl tells off the pretty prince. The pretty prince would have raped the spunky peasant girl. He would have put her in the stocks and then had garbage thrown at her. You know. I mean, the class structures in places like this had teeth. They had consequences. And people were brought up from their childhood to know their place and to know that duties of their class and the privileges of their class. It was always a source of friction when someone got outside of that thing. And I tried to reflect that. (link)

With that in mind, I thought Martin wanted to impress upon the reader the severity of what the hierarchy meant, the prince can do whatever the hell he wants, the noble kid is in danger of being punished (Arya might have lost a hand, Sansa loses Lady), Mycah is killed. We were meant to understand, this world isn't ours. Arya in an important way, didn't understand how the world worked, not really, which is a tool the author was using, her grief and horror, to guide us through learning about station in ASOIAF. We needed to see and feel the disparity.

Obviously, Martin doesn't think that's a good system, but the author slapping us in the face with, “this is horrible but this is the way it is” doesn’t mean we’re to expect a total transformation of Westeros as a whole in the last few chapters of the final book. Martin wants to have some verisimilitude to (his perception of) medieval times, so imo, the idea was never turning Westeros on its head, but for people who cared to end up in control and be better. Not like a modern anarchist, but be good within the confines of that world.

Anyway, because of how many Arya fans hate Sansa/Sansa fans, I never did much with that side of the fandom, but I never had the impression they truly thought anyone would be revolutionizing things. It seemed to me that they believed her ending up QitN was revolutionary not in the sense that she would upend the system, but to them, having a girl who rejected societal norms come out on top felt like an important rejection of a traditional princess “winning.” I assume that's why so much of their focus is on Sansa and how she ruined Arya's life even though she and Arya have been separated for books. It isn't so much what the particular character will do as a leader, which theme is upheld by them ending up in a position of leadership, the "revolutionary" bit is determined by defiance of (what they believe are) genre norms, not societal overhaul on the page.

Now, if we accept that a total societal revolution is off the table in ASOIAF, and knowing that Martin opposes violence pretty vehemently, isn't in favor of imposing your will through violent means, how can someone who rejects society encourage gradual improvement? Wouldn't the "realism" Martin wants be found in a person, who say, can function really, really well within the structure of society but cares enough to try to make things better for others? Someone who can change it all from within because their societal position confers a certain amount of power, but also, they have a notable ability to win admiration, even when it is begrudgingly given? Someone whose compassion, even for enemies, is highlighted? Isn’t that someone who would be able to gradually bring about the kind of realistic change Martin would permit in his world?

[soupthatistohot]

BSD: An Absurdist Analysis - Chapters 7 & 8 (Part 1)

Yosano and Kyouka: The Agency’s Women

[Masterpost]

I will be covering chapter 7 and 8 different from how I usually do these analyses, focusing on certain characters rather than the linear narrative. These two chapters revolve around the introduction of Yosano and Kyouka into the story, so I will focus on them for this post and make another ch. 7 & 8 post regarding other aspects of the chapters. 

So, let’s talk about Yosano!

This is her introductory chapter, spotlighting her personality and eventually her ability. One of my favorite moments by far is when she’s apologizing on Atsushi’s behalf for bumping into a rude, wealthy and entitled man who then kicks her in the face and she replies by threatening to stomp on his dick.

Later in the chapter, after Motojiro Kajii begins the bomb threat on the train, the same man begs for Yosano to save him after realizing she’s with the agency, perhaps hinting to the reader that he’s now had a change of heart… but then asks her to step on his dick. Appropriately, she drop-kicks the pervert. 

This highlights the absurdity of sexism and classism in modern society, the man flaunting his wealth earlier and insulting Yosano for being a woman, and is still unable to get over his bigoted ideology when his literal life is in danger. One would like to think that a woman being part of a powerful detective agency would earn the man’s respect, but in reality, this is not quite so true. He just wants to reap the advantages of having Yosano on his side by offering to pay her, but still objectifies her in the end. It’s a nuanced criticism that doesn’t magically solve sexism/classism by Yosano simply existing as a badass woman. 

This continues with Kajii’s interaction with Yosano, where he remarks that “women are so tough nowadays,” implying that it’s not in women’s nature to be strong. His sexist assumptions already put him at a disadvantage, because although he acknowledges Yosano’s strength, he still thinks himself more powerful and her stupid for trying to defy him.

In chapter 8, he calls her a “girl” and questions her intelligence, to which Yosano retaliates, calling Kajii "an idiot."

She’s goading him into injuring her here, knowing that her own ability will only work if she is on the brink of death, and it works. He drops a load of bombs on her, ignorantly assuming that there’s no chance of her survival. When he checks on her again, she uses this to her advantage, attacking him and effectively putting him in his place. 

Earlier, he had basically tried to mansplain death to her, not knowing who she was or what her background is, so she reveals her status as a doctor and explains her ability and understanding of death, threatening him.

After this, she half-kills Kajji and uses her ability on him enough times that she gets the information she needs and is able to speak to Atsushi over the intercom, allowing him to take charge of the situation. 

In summary, this chapter introduces Yosano as someone consistently overlooked because she is a woman, but she proves that she is capable and intelligent, which is not negated by the fact that she is also revealed to be borderline sadistic. It paints a nuanced portrait of a female character that will be further explored with her backstory much later in the manga. 

Now, let’s shift focus to Kyouka. 

Kyouka is silently present throughout chapter 7: capturing Dazai at the beginning and bumping into Atsushi at the train station. We know she is a threat, likely affiliated with the Port Mafia, but she is kept mysterious until the conclusion of chapter 7, using her appearance as a young, quiet girl as a cover until then. Atsushi tries to warn her against going toward the bomb before she reveals Demon Snow, who is being controlled by Akutagawa at this point. 

Continuing into Chapter 8, Atushi is shown to have been pretty injured by Demon Snow, and when he asks why a young girl like her is there, she reveals her very innocent interests and fears… and the fact that she’s killed thirty-five people in the last six months. 

Pairing the seemingly normal and even sweet personality traits consistent with a young girl with the fact that she’s an assassin is jarring, those two things do not belong together, and yet, in this absurd reality, there exists and girl who likes rabbits and has caused death. It’s absurd. 

After battling with Atsushi some more, she reveals that the bomb is strapped to her chest, reiterating her body count. Atsushi implores her to “express herself,” telling her that there’s more to life, imploring that they stop. Yosano then interrupts and Kyouka hands over the switch, only for Akutagawa to reveal through the phone that there is no way to defuse the bomb and it will go off regardless. 

She then pushes Atsushi away, attempting to jump off the train, and he then realizes that the phone controls her ability, that she has no autonomy and did not want to commit the murders she did. She has no autonomy. 

But rather than be resigned to her fate and allow herself and everyone on the train to die, Atsushi’s words seem to have affected her, and she decides to sacrifice only herself, jumping off the moving train.

While I cannot label this action as explicitly absurd (she believed she was dying either way and had completely lost hope), the fact that she’s rebelling against what Akutagawa wanted her to do, something she was unable to do thus far, is significant. I also think it is noteworthy that her ability is being controlled by a man, rendering her mostly unable to control her own actions, her hopelessness allowing for this. This appears to be in theme with the feminist lens these chapters seem to be taking. 

But as we already know with BSD, there is no situation that is completely hopeless, and Kyouka’s intended act of sacrifice allows Atsushi to jump out after her and save her, the bomb detaching from her chest far enough from the train that nobody gets injured. 

Kyouka will be further developed in future chapters, so I’ll wrap this up here at the end of chapter 8. What I will bring up is Kyouka’s similarities to Dazai, especially in his younger years. This is by no means an original idea, as many others have brought up this point on social media, but I do think it’s worth noting considering that the two share a certain amount of nihilism, which is only perpetuated by the toxic environment of the Port Mafia. Here, we see 

Kyouka taking her first steps toward breaking from this mindset, taking direct action so that nobody else got killed, seemingly the first decision she’s made for herself since her parents’ death. In this moment, she's reclaimed her autonomy.

This post is long enough as it is, so I’ll end it here. I will be making another post soon about chapters 7 and 8, focusing on Dazai’s capture, Kajji’s ideology, and Atsushi’s actions.

[Previous] [Next]

[aronarchy]

Compare:

Those takes come from a view where racism/antiblackness must result from individual “feelings” or nebulous internal “prejudices” rather than specific systems. That’s bullshit. If someone chose to own slaves under a racial slavery system then he was automatically racist. If someone chose to own a vastly disproportionate amount of property and live a bourgeois lifestyle while others were forced to starve then he was automatically classist and furthering their exploitation. If he's a white person chose to remain aristocratically rich under a system of racialized white supremacist capitalism then he was automatically racist. That’s what racism and classism are. It doesn’t matter whether he had other “ideals” or “feelings.” Clearly he didn’t respect them enough to hold the ideal that he was morally obligated to give up his privileged lifestyle to stop exploiting them. Does he think all this great human progress just occurred just because? Do better conditions appear out of thin air? No; wealth has to be redistributed (or, more accurately, seized back) for there to be more equality.

This is also why “but what about a person with a hypothetical psychologically ‘race-blind’ exploitative antagonism existed, what then” carries a false premise. Even if you, personally, might be “race-blind” in a vacuum, you do not live in a vacuum; if you go with a “default” then in a racist world the default will be racist. The mere ability to hold such a removed, detached individualized “ideology” or nebulous set of “beliefs” distinct from “real,” grounded ethics is already a product of privilege and indicative of privilege (as well as oppressiveness). The oppressors have always had varying “ideologies”/dispositions of this sort; they have the luxury of being able to hold these ~alternative views~ because they have a privileged vantage point where it all isn’t personal, it’s all low-stakes. But liberal “equality” or egalitarianism isn’t actual equality. This is condescending and useless.

It’s gross how many (almost always white) liberals try to justify owning slaves (“historically”). Fuck “it was just a product of their time.” People have ethical obligations no matter what time they’re in. And there will always be at least some people who (actually, radically) resist the dominant narrative, even if they are less visible or not heard. The exploited classes often/usually understand that their exploitation is wrong; they feel the trauma and the outrage themselves. Even some people of the privileged classes will dissent. “But I just had privileged foisted on me against my will I totally couldn’t help it or change anything” is the coward’s way out, is unrealistic, and denies agency.

(These are also the same types of people who take huge offense and clutch their pearls at statements like “all white people are racist” and claim that as justification for promoting entryist racist talking points in return like the specter of Black liberation activism going too far/being extremist/unreasonable now, but at the same time set up their premises so that that would be the logical conclusion from their scenario given a more honest use of definitions and interpretations, which is pretty ironic. Which is it? Was/is it not all white people, or yes all white people they couldn’t help it though it was just a product of their time?)

I mention this although this was said in a context of analyzing fiction because the OPs indicate they believe this is appropriate in any context in general, and people in general do not restrict this analysis to just fictional characters; these are extremely common talking points about real people, real-world situations and scenarios, and IRL oppression, both historically and in the present. These myths are taught in school and peddled in public discourse and sold as policy. They are dangerously wrong and need to be discussed and challenged.

[pinkandpurple360]

What TF was that Anon?

The comparison of Ozzie and Blitz doesn't work on any level. Multiple reasons. The classism like you said, but also it doesn't make sense!? Like Ozzie is supposed to be on the down low but has his personal space just covered in Fizz? I'm sorry, that's a plot hole. Anyone can walk in there and put together they are a couple and I'm supposed to believe people don't know? Hell, the person who seems to want to hide it is Fizz, even though the only person affected by the truth is Ozzie. So Blitzo being more private with his feelings, while not at all compatible in circumstance seeing as Blitzo keeps his pictures private as more of a locked box motif (think about it more like keeping something to yourself makes it more personal) is actually more in line with Fizz's attitude towards relationships. Fizz isn't chomping at the bit to be open about him and Ozzie, he isn't suffering from not being out about their relationship. He's FINE.

Both Fizz and Blitzo are on the same wavelength with relationships and emotions, Ozzie is the odd one out and puts his desires over Fizz's by dictating the relationship without communicating with Fizz and never once asks what Fizz wants for their dynamic. Fizz is just dragged around constantly by Ozzie's obsessive whims and Ozzie makes his whole personality about Fizz while Fizz is like his own person trying to be more than someone's pet. Sorta like how Blitzo is also his own person trying to carve out his own place in the world.

It's almost like they are just on the same level in every way but I'm supposed to think how cute it is that these far more powerful (physically, socially, financially) men find them attractive when it just feels demeaning. Neither have a say in their relationships. Both are forced out of their comfort zones by their narrative partners without their desires being considered in any way. But it's cute because these men who could destroy them are just so gaga over them? Pretty sure that's literally objectification.

With the exception of MnM it seems like imps naturally want to keep things private and to themselves, the precious parts of their lives are something they hold dear. I still don’t like fizz and Oz together because of how they treated MnM, and they’ll never dethrone them. Asmodeus is always the one who decides whether it’s secret or not, does PDA while fizz is uncomfortable, and he uses intimidation both times that he decides to expose it all. And the phrase “I don’t care” which, he should. It doesn’t have to be an angry confession, and since we don’t know the reason it was secret, other than his own opinion of romance as embarrassing to his brand, he’s only saying he doesn’t care about his own hang ups anymore…not others. So there’s very little impact here. So while fizz is terrified of it all getting out and he stresses so much about keeping things a secret, even from Asmodeus in case (??) I don’t know? Why did he roll up that magazine which accused him of being a gold digger to Ozzie, and throw it out the window? Is he worried Ozzie would believe it?

Making his fans love the “ship” removes all tension as well and just assumes this is your own reaction as well. It almost forces you to emote a certain way. You have to hate Stella, you have to see Octavia as impulsive and blind, you have to blame blitz for everything, you love the ship fizz and Ozzie, and you laugh at moxxie. You have to see striker as wrong. Or else it’s incorrect.

Stolas and Asmodeus do not exist outside of the two clown boys, they’re nothing characters when they aren’t connected to them. Only stand ins for the pro monarchy pro supremacy and classism message. That says you need to love and sleep with the rich to make them become nicer people. While also abusing the lower classes because now that you’re elevated by their privilege, you can do that. Hellborn sharks, succubi, other imps? The royal boyfriend has now elevated you above them. That’s why I can’t get behind either, it’s very empty. Whereas B and F has a lot more energy, dynamic, independence, and compelling storytelling. Which is why fizz was originally planned to be very different id wager.

I know!! It’s like the charm is “wow these lowly imps are favoured?? How unorthodox!! How charming! What cute pets they make!” It just feels like Ozzie is Fizz’s biggest fan, while also being his therapist, and stolas is Blitzs biggest stan and therapist without a “the”

[miixz]

I’ve been thinking a lot about the MDZS ending recently, so here’s a rambly post about where I'm currently at:

Wangxian made the choice to stay a part of the Lan Sect. Their interactions seem to be limited due to the amount they travel, but they’re still at home in the sect, it’s where they have their house, they work with the juniors, where their money comes from. I’ve seen people say that because it is not a place that accepts them, and that because the Lan Sect has committed its own crimes, that this was a bad choice, one that will make them unhappy in the future, and I just sort of don’t agree.

Something I think I rambled about before is that Mo Dao Zu Shi is pretty realistic with its societal problems like homophobia and classism, they are structural problems that are part of their entire society. That kind of thing isn’t solved in a day, and short of seclusion I don’t think there’s anywhere Wei Wuxian and Lan Wangji could go that’s completely free of them, and if we think of that through a realistic lens, isn’t that much sadder? I know a good portion of people in the fandom are queer or marginalized in some other way, isn’t the thought of just… Never being accepted, having to hide away forever, being made to leave society, much much sadder? 

Not everyone wants to be out and proud, not everyone is safe to do that, hell I’m not. But I don’t think limiting my interactions with people and leaving all the places that bring me joy would be a form of resistance, running away feels like a tragedy in itself. Obviously I don’t mean that for every situation, it’s great and encouraged for people to leave situations that make them unsafe! You don’t have to interact with bigoted people if you don’t want to! It’s important to take care and living a happy life does count as resistance in a world that doesn’t want you to. It’s just that in their case I don’t think that's what it’d be.

Yes, some of us are tired and want to leave a society that clearly was not made for us, but there are people fighting to make it a better one and that thrive within that. That’s the kind of people I think they are supposed to read as. They’ve found a way to make their happiness and exist within those spaces they want to occupy, and it isn’t perfect, but we see signs of it getting better through the juniors, and I think it’s entirely possible that it’s not as bad as some of us fear it to be in the adult front as well. Not in the direct interactions with the Sect, but in the rest of the novel.

Most of us are in acceptance that saving the Wen Remnants was the right thing to do, and that they were not all in agreement over what was happening in the sect all the time right? If not all Wens are the same as Wen Rouhan and his closest family, then why do we make all sects be a monolith? People will have different opinions, these organizations are big places and I highly doubt everyone feels some unanimous way about Wangxian.

More on the Wens, Wei Wuxian and Lan Wangji both show no resentment towards that group of people, even though that had been right after the war and they had been enemies very recently. And they might very well have fought some of the people in the burial mounds settlement before! But the point is not what they did, it was that the war was over and that it wasn’t right to act in the same way as the Wen had, fostering resentment and cruelty. 

It’s not about what the Wens did or didn’t do, but more about what kind of person Wangxian are.

I think the same applies here. To change people’s minds about prejudice and to encourage growth, you need to offer them a place to go when they leave those beliefs behind. Now, do I think that means Wei Wuxian should be buddy buddy with Jiang Cheng if he ever changes his mind and miraculously goes through some character growth? Become happy in-laws with Lan Qiren? No! There is such a thing as having healthy boundaries while also not holding onto vengeful feelings. 

The kind of people we see they accept into their lives are ones like Jin Ling and the other kids who change their minds on Wei Wuxian over the course of the story, Lan Xichen and Nie Huaisang who are in dubious places regarding morality, those I think seem to have room to grow. 

It’s admirable and heartwarming to me that they would choose to live a good, happy life and to make their world better, little by little as they help people and teach juniors and affect everyone else around them. I don’t think either of them are actively being activists in the way we would conceptualize them right now. They are simply happy and just being themselves and still their happiness by itself will have an impact on plenty of people that get involved with them. It’s not perfect, but it feels like a good ending to me, especially when I think of its relevance to the world we live in right now. It won’t change to accept us, but we can still be kind to people, perhaps change some minds, and be happy in spite of all the prejudice. 

Idk, it just seems like a good message to me. One of the things I love the most about both Wei Wuxian and Lan Wangji is how kind they are, and it makes a lot of sense to me that if they could give a chance to the Wen Sect Remnants, they can give a chance to Lan Wangji’s family too, and they might change some minds and make some close ties with some of them like it happened between Wei Wuxian and Wen Ning, while some people there might never change, but at the end of the day Wangxian will be happy regardless and also leave the world a better place than it was when they entered it. 

I'd love to hear others opinions on this, but its just an interpretation I arrived at that makes me feel happy about the ending and where its going.

[faintingheroine]

So this got me thinking… How common is the “the rejected poor suitor becomes rich and turns vengeful” plot type in world media? Is Wuthering Heights really the most world-famous example of it? Am I right in incessantly comparing Asoiaf’s Littlefinger to Heathcliff?

More than with any other poll I have made, I am extremely curious about this one. I find this subject absolutely fascinating. PLEASE respond, explain your reasoning for the option you chose and spread the poll.

Some notes:

Yes, Gatsby doesn’t turn vengeful but he is still influential I think on this plot type.

It seems more common in Eastern media but I discovered that both the Japanese Konjiki Yasha and the Turkish “poor but proud youth” movies are based on American stuff. It seems to have been embraced by Easterners but it seems to be a plot of Western origin which makes sense, since it is a 19th century story type that requires capitalism to exist.

Edit: The results are a bit disappointing. Gatsby was not vengeful, and I haven’t yet read Monte Cristo but as far as I know his reasons for revenge are far more voluminous. Of course Heathcliff also avenges the abuse he endures at the hands of Hindley, but his main reason for his revenge is very much about losing Catherine due to classism and racism and poverty. And he becomes really vengeful. As such I think “the rejected poor suitor becomes rich and turns vengeful” fits WH the best.

[x-on-the-calendar-business]

ryan ross iceberg (tier 5)

tier 1, tier 2, tier 3, tier 4, tier 6, tier 7, tier 8

near end of the iceberg:

r.r. confessions twt account:

there used to be a ryan confessions account on twitter under this name, but it was deleted. however, people said the most unhinged shit on there and there was so much drama. i wish i could list specific examples, but i don’t have any unfortunately.

there is a new ryan ross confessions account here, but i think it was created after the last one ceased to exist [i]. this one also has some unhinged stuff on it, such as someone saying they used ryden theory for their gender studies class, and someone else claiming that ryan has a child on the way (they confirmed they were joking). also the person who claimed their friend hooked up with ryan in a bathroom or something like that.

there is just nothing going on in the ryan sphere so the stans are bored.

dank eyes:

this is the nickname for dan keyes because, when you look at his instagram handle dankeyes, it looks like dank eyes. in 2015/2016, this is how most of us referred to him. honestly, i still call him this most of the time out of habit.

light brown:

this is a…uh song? that shane morris (we’ll talk about him next) posted on his soundcloud in 2012 featuring ryan and danny fujikawa.

you can listen to it here for the lore:

shane morris:

buckle up for this one.

this is ryan’s former manager from about 2012-2016, and he was just an absolutely horrible person. the masterpost about all of his wrongdoings (which i will link of course) starts out with “tw: rape, self harm, abuse, pedophilia, body-shaming, sexism, swearing, talk of drug use, suicide, nazism, classism, generally dicky things,” if that doesn’t tell you how things are gonna go [ii].

there is so, so much that this could be an entire post itself, so i will give a tldr but link some posts for further reading. there’s a couple of things related to him that will also appear as their own entries, so i will save in depth discussion of those for later.

shane has a pretty extensive history of posting disgusting things on the internet: rape jokes, fat shaming, making fun of people who self harm, eating disorders, slurs, basically anything that is problematic. the post i’m going to link shows specific tweets and tumblr posts about this. he also has a history of bullying ryan’s fans, and the picture below is one of many examples of it.

so he was generally an abhorrent human being, but let me elaborate on some of the stuff specific to ryan. shane would often promise fans new music from ryan but never follow through with it, likely because ryan didn’t know he was doing this. he actually ended up leaking some of ryan’s songs, but we’ll touch on that again later, along with him impersonating ryan on both twitter and facebook. once he and ryan cut ties, shane also deleted ryan’s soundcloud, i guess in an attempt to “get back” at him and the fans by robbing us of music that was backed up anyway. he spread rumors that ryan is a drug addict and transphobic as well [iii].

the context that ryan is not really active on social media is so important here because he had no idea of a) the kind of person shane was and what terrible things he said on the internet, and b) the way he was attempting to sabotage ryan’s career.

don’t worry, shane is still at it with managing musicians and creating drama. he was travis scott’s former manager, and in 2021, he claimed that he helped travis fake all of his streams to launch his career [iv]. this could be true, but it’s shane so i always take everything he says with a grain of salt anyway. he posted the tiktok about it during the astroworld events, so it reads to me as an attempt to insert himself into the situation (which is so tone deaf for such an insane tragedy like) (and of course, i’m not a travis scott apologist either). i take it that he is still the same as he was 10 years ago.

like i said, there is so much more to cover about shane, but we still have more entries to go over in this tier. therefore, i will leave you with this link to the aforementioned masterpost:

and another link with some more information:

its for lovers or just friends:

i mentioned this in tier 4, but this is a quote from ryan’s last ever livejournal post from june 25, 2006: “You don’t have to love me. You already did. At least enough to keep me smiling from South Carolina to Virginia.it's for lovers (orjustfriends)”

brie larson disneyland:

this refers to this picture of ryan at disney with brie larson.

i think it was from around 2017? they were hanging out because brie and alex greenwald used to date, and they were engaged before breaking up. there’s more pictures of them from this day in this twitter thread [v].

chelsey:

okay put your seatbelts back on cause this one is another entry that is a lot.

chelsey lynn is also known as the panic! stalker, and for good reason. she is a pretty terrible person and a lot of the reason that ryan and brendon don’t speak anymore. as discussed in an earlier tier, ryan and brendon did run into each other at a hooters and hang out, but around that same time, they tweeted each other occasionally, although they weren’t necessarily friends; however, the chelsey saga ultimately led to the complete ending of their friendship (which, granted, is not the worst thing in the world since brendon is also a pretty abhorrent person).

in 2012, chelsey started to catfish ryan pretending to brendon. she did this by hacking shane valdez’s (panic!’s former photographer and brendon’s former roommate) facebook account and messaging ryan under the guise of brendon. she told him she wanted to rekindle their friendship and was able to get ryan’s number, though she claims she got it from one of his friends, which is still weird. she catfished him for nine (9) months. she was able to coax all sorts of private and vulnerable information from ryan, such as the split, his relationship with z, his childhood, and more [vi].

once a fellow panic! fan and tumblr user got chelsey to confess, she went to shane morris about it, who thankfully actually took it seriously (even though shane has his own history of impersonating ryan, but we’ll talk about that later). due to the general public finding out about chelsey’s wrongdoings, she released an apology, but no fans really accepted it [vi].

chelsey did leak screenshots of her texts with ryan, which i won’t post here because i don’t think it’s appropriate, but you can find them if you feel so inclined. she also messaged someone on facebook stating that she has pictures of ryan she could leak, but she’s “nicer than that” [vii].

as i’m sure you can imagine, once ryan found out the truth, he was pretty upset. he made some instagram posts right after that were fairly sad.

the thing is, chelsey didn’t even like ryan that much; she was just obsessed with brendon and sarah. she stalked their families as well, and even had a spreadsheet of all of their information. she hacked several of their accounts too. she took photos from their private accounts and posted them on her tumblr, posing them as “rare” photos of brendon and sarah [vi].

the worst part of all of this? CHELSEY REMAINED ACTIVE IN THE FANDOM. she had a popular instagram account, called brendonurievines, and sarah followed it.

sarah ended up leaving a comment on instagram about it, in which she says there is nothing but love between them when they see each other…okay then. she also says she doesn’t follow her which is just a lie [viii].

chelsey has met brendon and zack hall multiple times, even as recently as when brendon was in kinky boots. she has deleted her instagram, but her youtube channel is still up. she hasn’t posted in 2 years, but even in 2020, she was posting videos of brendon and sarah.

lastly, she posted a statement on her instagram stories about it in 2018, taking no accountability.

so in conclusion, chelsey is a terrible person and one of the darkest sagas in ryan’s life. the way she catfished him during an already rough time in his life and gave him false hope that he could rekindle one of his oldest friendships was insanely gross. she shouldn’t be forgiven for this, and although she isn’t active anymore, we still shouldn’t forget what she’s done and continue to hold her accountable. here’s a post you can read to get more details than i put here:

gremlin:

a far more lighthearted entry than the last couple.

in 2015, ryan dressed as a gremlin for halloween. we’ll come back to this halloween party in the next tier.

zooey deschanel:

in around 2011, ryan and zooey were friends. they appeared on each other’s instagrams and tweeted back and forth some. the pics of them together are from vicky t’s christmas party in 2011.

the tragic love life of ryan ross:

this a series of tumblr posts by @pathetic-at-the-disco that chronicle ryan’s relationships. it starts from his high school girlfriend (who most of fever was written about), and it was originally supposed to end with helena, but they left off before moving on to z berg 5 years ago. it also discusses jac, keltie, katie, and his fling in cape town [ix].

they are fairly long posts because they contain a lot of detail, but i definitely recommend reading them because they’re really informative. definitely very well done and impressive. in fact, i sourced them a lot when talking about jac and keltie.

if you remember, in tier 2 i said i would link more info about his relationships with jac and keltie later in the iceberg. so here we are:

this is another post for further reading that corrects some things that were incorrect in the original post:

hung out with freshmen:

i cannot find the source for this anywhere, but in an interview, ryan said that when he was in his junior/senior year of high school, he hung out with freshmen.

tweets that aren’t his:

back to shane morris i fear.

in 2014, he hacked ryan’s twitter. i’ll talk about the specific tweets he made in the next tier. ryan did find out about the hacking and tweeted this.

all of the tweets are still up, and his twitter bio still says, “Nope. It wasn’t me.”

this is my coming out party:

in 2009, someone hacked ryan’s twitter and tweeted this, and it was absolutely iconic. i actually quote this frequently lmao

ryan ross struggles:

this is a twitter account, ryanrosstruggle (shoutout kiki), who posts struggles from ryan ross stans. struggle accounts basically just post unhinged or cringey tweets (or other posts) from people within the fandom. there are other kinds of posts they repost, but it’s really hard to describe, so you should just go to kiki’s twitter to see some of the things she tweets [x]. here’s a couple examples:

up next, we finish the actual iceberg before diving into the deeper waters.

tier 6

references:

[i] https://twitter.com/ryanrossconf?lang=en

[ii] https://astroe.tumblr.com/post/42733669382/shane-morris-and-why-everybody-hates-him

[iii] https://pathetic-at-the-disco.tumblr.com/post/172418363736/hey-can-you-elaborate-on-the-whole-shane-thing-i

[iv] https://www.dailydot.com/unclick/travis-scott-shane-morris/

[v] https://twitter.com/crossboydreamie/status/1569466922042802178?lang=en

[vi] https://pathetic-at-the-disco.tumblr.com/post/172832450316/the-time-that-ryan-ross-was-catfished-by-a-fan

[vii] https://dallonsmiles.tumblr.com/post/42837896821/here-are-a-few-screenshots-from-a-conversation

[viii] https://pathetic-at-the-disco.tumblr.com/post/172147291981/last-year-i-remeber-in-a-comment-sarah-left-on

[ix] https://pathetic-at-the-disco.tumblr.com/post/171140808026/the-tragic-love-life-of-ryan-ross-all-links

[x] https://twitter.com/ryanrosstruggle

[ninja-muse]

November started out bookish, because my Dad came to visit for a few days, which meant a bookstore visit, a poetry reading, and a bookish movie. It then got mundane and kind of time-dilated. If feels like October was three months ago at least and that all the books took ages to get through, which is absolutely not the case. I didn't write much, just kind of lazed around. Maybe that's it?

It was a good reading month, though! Apart from one DNF that was just not for me, I didn't read a single dud and Libby kept on coming through with anticipated reads. I not long have anything actively on hold there, and few things on hold physically at the library right now either, which hopefully means I'll be able to tackle The ARC Pile again next month and burn through a handful of those before the new year. Wish me luck?

I am well and truly going to lose most of my reading challenges this year. There's no way I'm going to hit 140 books, no way I'm going to read the remaining books on my personal "read these 50 books" challenges, and I might have hit 10 Canadian authors but I'm certainly not going to hit the stretch goal of 20. I'm mostly okay with this. Really. At least I finally passed my goal of 40,000 pages. Huzzah!

Also, as you can tell by that stack of six books, I do not have a book acquisition problem. You have a book acquisition problem! Only two of those were purchases though—I've been meaning to read The Apprenticeship of Duddy Kravitz and The Mighty Dead comes recommended. The rest of them were out of damaged shipments at work. If the publisher doesn't want them back and we don't have the space to store them, what am I meant to do? Throw them away? Salt Fat Acid Heat is totally writing research, of course.

Somehow, I suspect I'm not going to hit my goal of reading more books off my TBR shelves than I add to them this year either.

And now without further ado, in order of enjoyment…

The Water Outlaws - S.L. Huang When Lin Chong is convicted of a crime she didn’t commit, she finds herself allied with infamous outlaws.

8/10

🏳️‍🌈 secondary characters (lesbian, genderfluid), mute secondary character, 🏳️‍🌈 author

warning: death, violence, torture, blood

The Night Watch - Sarah Waters

Four Londoners after and during the War, and the melancholiness of life and love.

8.5/10

🏳️‍🌈 main characters (lesbian, bi woman), 🏳️‍🌈 secondary characters (lesbian, queer)

warning: self-harm, abortion, blood, war, suicide

Lay Them to Rest - Laurah Norton

A portrait of people solving Doe cases and their methods.

8/10

warning: missing and murdered people, human remains

Ogres - Adrian Tchaikovsky

The world is a cruel place full of powerful ogres, and you are a peasant with a grudge.

7.5/10

warning: violence, murder, classism, oppression

Turning Darkness into Light - Marie Brennan

Audrey Camherst gets the chance to translate lost Draconean texts but grows suspicious of her new employer.

7.5/10

Black British-coded main character

warning: xenophobia

The Circumference of the World - Lavie Tidhar

A pulp sci-fi novel that doesn’t exist, the real lives it affects, and the secrets of the universe.

7.5/10

albino Vanuatan main character, faceblind main character, half-Guyanese Jewish secondary character

warning: sexist, racist, and homophobic characters

Sleep No More - Seanan McGuire

October is a changeling born to serve her family, and happy in her role. Unfortunately there are people who remember her very differently.

7/10

🏳️‍🌈 secondary characters (bi men), 🏳️‍🌈 author

warning: villains really like their ideas about blood purity

The Innocent Sleep - Seanan McGuire

Tybalt’s wife has been caught in Faerie’s grandest illusion and he just wants to bring her home.

7/10

🏳️‍🌈 main character (bi man), 🏳️‍🌈 secondary characters (poly, sapphic, bi man), 🏳️‍🌈 author

warning: eugenics

DNF

Moorewood Family Rules - HelenKay Dimon

Jillian is out of prison and determined to make her con artist family go straight, no matter what.

Currently reading:

A Power Unbound - Freya Marske

Jack, Alan, and their friends must find a hidden artifact and foil a plot. Jack and Alan do not get along.

🏳️‍🌈 main characters (gay, bi), main character with injured leg and chronic pain, 🏳️‍🌈 secondary characters (gay, bi woman, lesbian), 🏳️‍🌈 author

Music from the Earliest Notations to the Sixteenth Century - Richard Taruskin A history of early written European music, in its social and political contexts.

The Penguin Complete Sherlock Holmes - Arthur Conan Doyle Victorian detective stories

major disabled character

warning: colonialism, racism

Stats

Monthly total: 8 Yearly total: 117/140 Queer books: 4 Authors of colour: 1 Books by women: 5 Authors outside the binary: 1 Canadian authors: 0 Off the TBR shelves: 1 Books hauled: 6 ARCs acquired: 2 ARCs unhauled: 2 DNFs: 1

January February March April May June July August September October