#and i think. whether or not they do. anti-endos are pretty mean about it! their posts on it remind me of transmeds or aphobes.

[pet-cemetery-emotes]

unrealted but what does endo mean? /genq

Short hand for endogenic! Which usually means anyone who is plural for non trauma reasons! or who doesn't relate their plurality to trauma. if you don't know what plural means, there are a lot of definitions! I'd recommend googling around or talking to plural people, because i dont have good words today. plurality is often associated with DID, but that's not the only source or cause :) another common one is MADD (maladaptive daydreaming disorder) or immersive daydreaming!

take this with a grain of salt, though - people will often change their personal definitions of what it means to be plural or endo to exclude others. perhaps because of their own internalized ableism, or exerting control over their online spaces is the only control they readily get, or because picking on a subculture of a subculture means that their targets often won't be defended and they can get away with using them as stress toys. Similarly to queer infighting, and aphobia. Thumbs up emoji

[partsofapuppy]

(his post is made by an endo neutral, anti leaning, cdds first alter who is critical of both pro endos and anti endos.)

i do have a problem with the... hypocrisy of syscourse.

the amount of things anti endos do that would get death threats sent to pro endos if they did the same is WILD.. and i think some of you need to take a step back. what happened to treat others the way they want to be treated?

1. hiding responses debunking information

yeah i think everyone knows who im talking about. you make a post with faulty sources and when someone makes a post debunking your sources and information, you hide it. that's blatant disinformation at this point.

it's Okay to be wrong by the way. you don't have to be right.

2. wishing death upon endogenic systems

ive seen NOBODY talk about it but there's an art piece going around depicting someone holding a sword, with the text "death upon endos" (paraphrased.) and for this one i KNOW people would react badly because i remember the kill the anti endo inside of you merch. that was HEINOUS. but this is fine? i dont know how to break it to you guys but wishing death upon people is not. the leftist take you think it is. id say its actually pretty ableist. i wouldnt call it fascistic because that's a bit extreme (for both pieces of artworks) but Dear God

3. infantilization (for lack of better terms) of pro/endos

assuming endogenic systems or even pro endogenic (cdd) systems are being groomed or are just misinformed or what not. these are people. ive said it before and i'll say it again but people have the right to have different opinions. than you. it doesn't mean they've been groomed, it doesn't mean they're idiots, they are autonomous human beings who have decided, "hey, i think pro endos exist."

4. accusations of grooming

im really upset about this one. as a survivor of grooming i really think you guys need to learn what grooming means. grooming is inherently sexual.

"One tool common to those who sexually abuse kids is grooming: manipulative behaviors that the abuser uses to gain access to a potential victim, coerce them to agree to the abuse, and reduce the risk of being caught." from RAINN. stop flippantly using such words. as a grooming victim it genuinely grinds my gears that you are watering this term down. imagine if someone said anti endos were grooming people into thinking endos weren't real.

5. invasion of tags

this one i also know you'd be upset about because ive seen endos invade tags and they (rightfully so) get called out. i dont quite like how it's okay to do this for anti endos.

6. claiming singlets can't be in syscourse

this one especially makes me mad. i know if a singlet said "endos aren't real" a lot of anti endos would be leaping for joy. but when a singlet says "endos are real" it's all "singlets need to stay out of syscourse." i hate to break it to you. i really do. but singlets are autonomous people who, regardless of whether you like it or not, have the right to an opinion. especially because fused systems may count themselves as singlets.

please think before you do something. please put yourself into other people's shoes.

[sophieinwonderland]

hey im endo neutral before you go off on one, but just came in here to say triggering people's psychosis is cringe and fail, so is triggering abandonment/attachment issues, so is going against a group of highly traumatised indivoduals (cause lets face it thats exactly what you did, regardless of whether they accept you or not or whether you think theyre "bigoted" or not) and ALSO you really do not give pro endos a good look and maybe you should like reevaluate what you post or think for more than like three seconds before hitting post (literally anyone could have seen how that post would be incredibly triggering). i look through your blog every once in a while to look at all the papers you post and all your arguments cause i like having a nuanced view and i understand it feels shitty for people to not believe in an integral part of you - i have the same thing when it comes to my religion but i dont fucking go around telling non believers im gonna take everything they love away from them because im not an asshole? have a day <3

I'm just curious... is there a group actively identifying as anti-[your religion]?

Do you have to regularly deal with non-believers coming into your religious spaces just to tell you that your religion isn't real and that you're faking your religious experiences?

How many times have you been told to kill yourself because of your religion?

When was the last time you saw someone say cyberbullying needed to be brought back specifically to bully people with your religion?

When you introduce people to your religion, are the non-believers accusing you of "grooming" them?

Do you want to know something? I don't actually care if people believe in me or not. That vast majority of people don't know that tulpas exist because it's still pretty niche.

That's fine. They can be taught later.

Other people people are aware of bits and pieces but don't get involved and don't believe either. They have their beliefs and keep those to themselves. I can respect that.

These people aren't anti-endos.

But then you have a hate group who have made it part of their identity to spread constant hate and disinformation about us. These are not simply "non-believers." This a group that is united solely by their hatred of us.

And this is probably more controversial in the pro-endo community, but I don’t even mind the "endogenics are all traumagenics in denial" people, in theory. As long as they're respectful and aren't actively spreading hate or standing with those who do.

I say in theory though because practically every one I've actually encountered is still gatekeeping space and resources. And that somehow makes it even worse to me because while disbelieving in endogenic plurality is ignorant, even if willfully ignorant, believing we're confused trauma survivors in denial and still treating us like shit and gatekeeping terms means they're just knowingly hurting other trauma survivors.

Don't you dare try to frame this as me simply going after people for not believing me.

[proendovents]

goooood i'm so fucking tired of cluster B PD spaces being so openly hostile towards endogenic systems. someone was thinking of making a blog for cluster B people to send messages they would regret sending to the actual intended recipient (to avoid sending those messages to the recipient while still getting the emotions out), and they were asking whether or not endogenic systems should be allowed on the blog.

i got halfway through my explanation in the comments (unsent) before realizing "hey, maybe i should check this person's actual stances", tentatively hoping that maybe they were endo neutral and we could explain why anti-endos are extremely harmful and how there's pretty much 0 safe spaces for endogenic systems with cluster B PDs.

nada. look at the BYF, one of the first things i see is "anti "endogenic" ""systems""", immediately accusing us (us as in endogenic systems as a whole, not as in us specifically) of faking. which is. one of the things we talked about in the comment we had been actively writing.

deleted the comment and blocked the person, but just. Fuck man, i'm tired of having to choose between getting support as a person with CB-PDs from other people with CB-PDs, versus being accepted as endogenic plural. shit sucks

Oh god I’m so sorry, it’s not our (this system that runs the blog I mean) place to make one of those as we do not have a Cluster B Personality Disorder ourselves, if we did we absolutely would make a space for that though!

[a-dragons-journal]

hello! this is about your recent post where you mention in the tags that it’s okay to ask you about syscourse? sorry if that’s not what you meant, you can ignore this if you want.

for context, i don’t really have an opinion on endogenic systems, since i don’t think i have a place to. i’m a singlet — i once asked several (traumagenic) systems that i knew what their opinions on endos were, and, of course, they all gave different answers. (ranging from “it’s ridiculous and offensive” to “i don’t know, some have their reasons [gives list of reasons]” to “they exist and are harmless.”)

the problem is, i can see the arguments on both sides. like, yes, i agree that psychologists don’t know everything and could be overlooking some systems who really actually exist without a traumamatic origin. but at the same time, how likely is it that they’d totally have missed all these endo systems? but psychologists do miss a lot of things, like how autistic women are just now starting to get diagnosed. then again, is that situation really comparable? are there reputable studies published about endos that i just don’t know of?

i agree with what you said about not doubting others’ experiences of their own selves. but that raises the question of whether you should believe the reasons for what they’re experiencing. for example, i don’t believe in every religion. but if someone told me that they prayed to their god and their god comforted them, i wouldn’t doubt the fact that they were comforted — i just don’t think [insert example god here] exists. that’s just a thing that will happen when people have different beliefs. i wouldn’t say that to them, not unless they directly asked me my beliefs, but i just don’t believe in some religions. that’s just part of living, it would be pretty difficult to believe in every religion and philosophy at the same time. i wouldn’t expect anything different for other people regarding my beliefs, either — if i tell someone with different religious beliefs about a religious experience i had, i won’t be mad if they have a different explanation. (for clarification: i’m not trying to say this to be all “look at me, i don’t get mad but you people do!” i really hope it doesn’t come off that way. i try not to think i’m better than anyone, genuinely. i think i’m right about some things, of course, but who doesn’t think they’re right about some things? i can’t believe anything unless i think some things are correct and some things aren’t.)

it’s similar (though not the same) for systems, i feel like. for endo systems who are spiritual in origin especially. i don’t doubt their experiences, but i just can’t believe that some explanations are correct if my belief system is contradictory to it. does this mean i think all endos are secretly traumagenic, or, the opposite, that they’re all faking their experiences of being plural? very likely not. i haven’t seen everyone’s lives or brains.

i wouldn’t cut someone off solely for being endo, and i wouldn’t cut someone off solely for being anti-endo. i don’t know, i feel like i’m supposed to with tumblr culture being like it is. i understand that there’s many traumagenic systems who believe endos are wrong, or faking, because by modern medical knowledge, endos shouldn’t be a thing. they don’t want to be around people who they truly believe are co-opting their hardships for fun or completely misunderstanding what being plural is actually like. and i know they do truly believe that, they’re not being mean for the sake of it or trying to be ableist — as you’re probably aware, they believe that many endos are the ableists. but i don’t have the negative reaction some traumagenic systems have, because i’m a singlet. i can’t say for-sure-for-sure that endos are all super wrong about everything or that they’re all fakers, because i can’t read minds and i’m not omnipresent. i’m skeptical, but not so skeptical that i’ll dismiss it out of hand. i’m floundering around trying not to offend anybody unduly while wondering which people are the ones i actually shouldn’t mind offending.

i’m realizing i don’t have an actual question here. i guess i want someone to talk to about this, since my friend group (containing several of the traumagenic systems i mentioned earlier, the ones i asked their opinions on) has turned decidedly anti-endo. i don’t know when everyone decided to do this, as last year there were still multiple opinions spinning around, but i guess i missed out on a conversation or something. maybe some do still hold their former opinions, or anti-endo alters are the ones fronting more often when the topic comes up. i think they would be fine if i brought the topic up and told them how i felt — my friends are pretty reasonable when people have genuine questions, i highly doubt they’d kick me out or mock me or anything — but still.

i think i just want alternate opinions to consider, and to learn facts about endos i might not know of. i’ll probably stay pretty ambivalent no matter what people say on the topic (and i don’t say this to discourage anyone from telling me stuff, just trying to be honest about what will likely happen). i can imagine myself taking either stance, which means that i can’t in good faith take ANY stance. i have no clue which is objectively correct. i guess the important thing is just that i try to understand everyone’s perspective and be kind to everyone no matter how my beliefs change.

keeping this anonymous because i don’t want anyone i know to find this, at least not yet.

Hey anon, thanks for sending this and I think you're being very reasonable and handling this very well. I have a pretty strong opinion on this, but I don't want that to come off as me trying to bully you for making sure that you do your due diligence before taking up a stance on it; I think the world would be a better place if more people did that more consistently.

First, I really don't believe in the "singlets shouldn't have opinions on syscourse" thing. There's not really a neutral on this one; being neutral on whether or not to believe people about their lived experiences almost invariably just means you're willing to let the antis fakeclaim and often harass people. If you're existing in spaces with systems, you kind of have to have some sort of opinion on it. (And "I don't know enough to know what I think about this yet" is a valid opinion, and one I think more people should be willing to say!)

A major thing here is that science absolutely does recognize the existence of systems outside of DID and OSDD - which is usually what anti-endo people really mean when they say "traumagenic systems," despite the fact that technically it's possible for a system to be traumagenic without meeting the diagnostic criteria for DID or OSDD, and (and this is the controversial one) it's at least theoretically possible for a system to be DID or OSDD and never have experienced trauma - trauma is not part of the diagnostic criteria, and contrary to what anti-endos often say, DID and OSDD are not classified as trauma disorders in the DSM-V, they're classified as dissociative disorders. The theory of structural dissociation is not the be-all-end-all of theorizing on why DID and OSDD happen, and there's no objectively proving that it is.

Anyway. Tangent aside - even the diagnostic criteria for DID acknowledge that there are plural experiences that are not pathological when it makes an exception for possessions and plurality linked to cultural and religious practices. Outside of that, there are indeed papers and articles focusing on non-traumagenic and/or non-pathological plurality, and doubtless more of them mention it offhandedly - here's one short list which I've at least glanced at each of the entries in, and a longer list I unfortunately haven't had the time to read through and thus can't vouch for the links in yet (but it's there for your reading if you like). I'm certain there's more out there; my resources on this are limited.

Even aside from that, I feel like people forget that in psychology, studies and articles "proving" the existence of a phenomenon are just... recording the experiences of people in a mass format. There's no objective test you can do to tell if someone's plural. It's just large groups of people self-reporting their subjective experiences, instead of people doing it one at a time like you see on Tumblr or wherever else. Should I need a study to tell me that my experience of nonhumanity is real? Why is someone's experience of plurality different?

A pathological form of something existing doesn't mean that a non-pathological form of that thing can't also exist. The non-pathological form existing, likewise, doesn't mean that the pathological form suddenly isn't pathological anymore. Normal anxiety existing doesn't mean a clinical anxiety disorder suddenly isn't pathological anymore, and someone having a clinical anxiety disorder doesn't mean other people can't experience normal levels of anxiety about things without it being either faking or secretly a disorder. I mean, obviously this isn't a perfect comparison, but - do you see what I mean?

Re: not having to believe people on why, this is true and fair, but: I don't need to believe a given system's specific explanation for why they're plural, but I do need to defend their right to believe it, and I need to not insist that my explanation or experiences are universal. I also need to raise the point that if you (general you, not you specifically) are insisting that the why must be trauma, you are doing more harm than good - people's brains can and do make up traumatic pseudo-memories under pressure to remember something traumatic that never actually happened, and that has real effects on them even though those events didn't actually happen.

I do take your point about some anti-endos genuinely believing endogenic systems are either misunderstanding or co-opting their experiences. However, I personally hold to the opinion that frankly, this is solidly a them problem. If you can't understand someone else's experiences, and you decide that because of that they must be either wrong or lying, that is a you problem and you need to work on that. If you see someone having fun with (or just having a normal time with) something that's painful and traumatic for you, and you decide that because of that they must be faking or mocking you, that is a you problem and you need to work on that. It is an understandable you problem, because I get where the gut reaction is coming from, but it is still a you problem.

(Note that this is the same thing we say to transmeds, for the same reason we say it to sysmeds - and no, I don't call them "sysmeds" because I'm basing it on "transmed," I call them that because that's what they are, system medicalists, people insisting that the only way to be a system is for it to be a medical, pathological thing.)

Hopefully that helps give you some thoughts to chew on; I'm more than happy to continue this if you like, of course.

[system-of-a-feather]

If you are still taking asks about your syscourse stance from anti endos (I'm a bit late) :

1. Excluding those who do not remember their trauma or do not believe it to be enough to be traumagenic, do you believe that endos are really experiencing systemhood and not some other kind of plurality or multiplicity?

I cannot understand how someone who doesn't have any dissociation could ever have alters. It just doesn't make sense at all to me, no matter what angle I look at it from, and I cannot find any sources explaining it either. I do not *not* believe that endos are experiencing some kind of multiplicity but I don't think it's necessarily systemhood, if that makes sense?

2. How do you not get jaded by some of the things you see happening in the pro-endo spaces?

I'm talking about things like people labeling themselves "trans-programmed" or "trans-RAMCOA" (and so many more), those same people often calling traumagenic systems privileged, and other people who keep spreading misinfo about OSDDID (for example, that you don't need trauma to have DID), etc.

I know this isn't the entire community but I rarely see much opposition to those behaviors, which makes me feel very unsafe amongst most pro-endos.

1. Excluding those who do not remember their trauma or do not believe it to be enough to be traumagenic, do you believe that endos are really experiencing systemhood and not some other kind of plurality or multiplicity?

Honestly, I think the only thing in this topic is a lot of arguing over semantics and if words can be shared. From what I'm getting, I think you equate systemhood / being a system to being traumagenic / DID / OSDD exclusively. From the sounds of it, I think you seem to be open to the idea that they do experience multiplicity / plurality so I don't think we disagree there much. I personally don't think "system" and "systemhood" needs to be an explicitly DID/OSDD term but its also a debate I have very little interest in. I am cool with saying that "system" is a term that people can use regardless of their nature cause - to me - it's just a way of labeling yourself.

Also, while I am not sure if it is similar or the same as DID/OSDD alters, I honestly could see how someone could have disordered plurality without being traumagenic simply due to how prolonged internet usage can cause a dissociative effect, especially in situations where roleplaying features are around and those have been documented in clinical studies - particularly around the proposed internet gaming disorder and internet gaming addiction. There is a lot of research to be done whether the experience of DID/OSDD like symptoms late in age is anywhere comparable to the more traditionally researched and understood DID/OSDD that stems from complex and chronic childhood trauma - but it's honestly a pretty false notion that dissociation ONLY comes due to trauma. (ADHD has it as a symptom, internet usage has a dissociative affect on the self, substances can also do it, meditation also can do it) So I figure with the combination of developing research in developmental psychopathology and research into other things that can cause dissociation that we might honestly find other means of developing alters or alter-like experiences in people who did not experience the extended trauma often seen in our current understanding of DID/OSDD.

2. How do you not get jaded by some of the things you see happening in the pro-endo spaces?

I just divide "pieces of shit" from "people just living their lives". //shot//

Honestly, really though, if someone is being an asshole, bigotted, extremely fucked up, etc I consider them first and foremost their fucked up group and then the neutral or positive group identities they have second.

So if someone is trans-programmed and identify as endo - I identify them FIRST as a toxic and fucked up trans-ID person who happens to identify as part of the endo community. I attribute the trans-ID shit to their trans-ID beliefs and give the overall community the benefit of the doubt and good faith that the overlap is a Ven Diagram and not a circle.

Generally I like to avoid generalizing groups as all bad based on their bad corners, especially if I've seen the community actually make efforts to improve. I personally found the latter of the that statement earned with the good faith I saw in a lot of quiogenic and endogenic systems when the tulpa-discourse came up and a good number of servers and people made the effort to leave the appropriated terms behind.

From that point I went "aight ok" and divided the endo community between racists and people with no intent of improving themselves and their community and endos that just honestly want to live their life and are doing the best in their knowledge to not harm others.

TransID people I generally put in the same group as the Tulpa people and just click my tongue in disgust and block them.

But TLDR I just honestly would prefer to give the people that haven't done anything wrong a chance to just live their lives without hurting people rather than punishing them with the people that really don't care the harm they do. Just cause some people who claim to be part of your group are pieces of shit, doesn't mean everyone in that group both 1) supports and wants those people in their group and 2) deserve to be shunned, harassed, and treated with poorly.

[faesystem]

Personally we block anti-endos far more often for racism, ableism, and misinformation. The amount of anti-endos who have blatantly said that other culture's spiritual beliefs are made-up bullshit, that think psychiatrists are infallible gods and that psychiatric abuse isn't a big deal, and spread misinformation about how DID forms so that they can gatekeep people is wild

pretty sure this falls under *checks notes* being a dick. which i said i block 8/10 anti endos i see for being.

whats your point here?

well

i think i know what your point is

if i just said that i blocked 8/10 anti endos i see for being a dick, you would agree with that

but when i said i also block 8/10 pro endos i see for ableism, racism, and misinfo, you now dont agree with my previous statement. not because we disagree on many anti endos sucking, but because you think pro endos... are better.

which, well, id ask you take a look at this big long post i made about in group and out group mentality. its based on the stuff i was learning in my psych class.

a quote that sums up what i think about this whole thing youve said here is 'if you engage with pro-endogenics you will see the worst of anti-endogenics, and if you engage with anti-endogenics you will see the worst of pro-endogenics.'

i think everyone sucks because i exist outside of this in group and out group mentality. i engage with people, not labels, i dont care whether someone calls themselves whatever stance provided they arent bitter horrible people. which means, i engage with pro endos and therefore see the worst of anti endos. and i engage with anti endos and therefore see the worst of pro endos

the difference between the 8/10 pro endos i block versus the 8/10 anti endos is the flavour of sucking they tend to do. the common thread here? all of these people are heavily involved in discourse, and that generally makes someone pretty unpleasant.

discourse, in group out group mentalities, and group conformity turns people into fucking horrible people. sure, not all of us, but every single person who is so strongly attached to a discourse position that anyone outside of it is horrible and anyone inside of it isnt are the exact sort of 8/10 i block

just

look

i cooked my dad dinner, ate it with him tonight. he told me how he went to a japanese restaurant last night and wants to try some japanese cooking. we made plans to cook together

after he showed me this tech project he did. he was coding some different speeds for fans for my mom's biltong making. it was his first time using the program c, and he showed me the whole process.

he showed me how he was able to convert some ratios in three lines. i found out that the program he used before, assembler i think, was only able to divide and times by two. we had a laugh as my brain broke, trying to figure out how someone would even begin to tackle that problem

after he was done there and he gave a demo of everything he had explained in practice, i went to my nan's attached granny flat. i asked if she wanted to watch 10 more minutes of that sam i am movie she wanted to watch with me. we decided we're going to take it in chunks

i got us some wine and some cheese and crackers and we ended up watching for about half an hour before i had to tap out. i do think its a beautiful movie-- i just get a lot of second hand embarrassment when watching it and its kind of painful. but i love my nan and i love watching it with her

ive gotten into cooking a lot recently. not been able to do it as much as id like, ive been sick, but ive been falling in love with it. i want to start growing my own veggies soon

tomorrow, my brother's disability support worker is coming for the first shift. hes a chef and i asked my mom if he could ever do a shift with me to teach me how to cook. she said not yet when i brought it up first, because she doesnt want my brother to feel like im taking his support worker from him.

and earlier he was freaking out because he has a five hour shift tomorrow with this guy. he doesnt think he can handle being around someone for five hours. so i suggested that the support worker could teach me how to cook if james doesnt want to do something with him

and my brother calmed down immediately, it was a huge weight off my back, and im so so excited for tomorrow.

why the ramble?

because we all live

every single person around you is also just living a life as vivid and complex as your own. even the people i block because i think theyre stupid and they rub me the wrong way.

and i think people are worthy of compassion and respect and care regardless of what judgements you make about them

its not that people cant be bad or you have to have them in your life or that its wrong to debate or argue or vent about what they do. its just

i dont know

i find it kinda ridiculous youre in here defending pro endos by saying you generally see anti endos who are worse. of course you do, youre pro endo, youre surrounded by many pro endos because thats your community. you see a lot more of them than i do, i only really see the assholes that get 5 minutes of fame in syscourse. same with anti endos. theres probably a lot, lot more pro/anti endos that did not make it into my 8/10 statistic because i dont even know theyre pro or anti endo, because it doesnt come up and theyre not insufferable people

i just

i just find syscourse so ridiculous now

[sleepy-shutin]

hope it’s ok for me to rant to you lmao but i feel like 99% of syscourse bloggers on both sides fundamentally understand how studies statistics diagnostic criteria etc work. and i’m not saying those things are perfect at all but if you’re going to get into discourse about it you should probably at least understand it on a basic level ykwim. especially studies because no one interprets them in the right way in syscourse, which is understandable because a lot of them have very academic style writing and formatting and can unfortunately just be generally inaccessible, but if you don’t know what they’re saying and why then don’t act like you do is my point. i see a lot of pro endos toss around the same few studies that they say prove endogenic or tulpa related plurality, but all of the ones i’ve read are just like, the bare bones of a study that are meant to be built off of, aka essentially just surveying a group of people and saying “yeah these people say they experience this.” on the anti endo side of things, i’ve noticed a lot of them throwing around brain scan and TOSD related studies saying they inherently disprove endogenic plurality, but those studies were also conducted with strictly DID and OSDD in mind and not endogenic plurality, which would probably have to be studied completely separately. also that goes for pro endos because a lot of them try to shoehorn endogenic plurality into the DIDOSDD criteria and shit when it’s inherently going to be different lol. anyways even then a few studies into it aren’t going to prove anything, it could probably take a decade to come to any sort of conclusive scientific agreement on endos, and even then studies and their findings are very very rarely, if ever, treated as irrefutable proof. and i think a lot of people need to realize that they themselves can spread misinformation and it’s not just ableist singlets that do that, which is kind of a whole can of worms entirely but just because you have DIDOSDD or you identity as an endogenic system that doesn’t mean you inherently know how to read scientific papers and aren’t immune to bias when reading them.

no no, you're onto something. i think few people in syscourse know how to use sources or even what they're saying as well. because a lot of these people aren't super educated on DID itself, haven't read a lot of books about it, and aren't familiar with academic language.

not that i'm by any means an expert, i've been stuck trying to read the same book for several months now because i've been struggling to find the motivation, and am trying to stick to my "one book at a time" method, (though, i'll probably just have to give up and read multiple books at once anyways lmao). but like jesus christ.

the reason i'm not really "anti endo" in that i disbelieve in endogenic plurality is precisely because there aren't any actual studies proving or disproving the experience wholly for me to base an opinion off of--though, the communities i'm generally pretty unhappy with, lol. all we have are barebones ideas and surveys, and then a bunch of poorly done speculation by that one tulpa who MUST be in wonderland if she thinks half the sources she's using actually say what she thinks they're saying, lmao.

it's also a huge reason i'm burnt out on syscourse and just don't really care to argue about whether endos exist or not. i don't care. live your life, dog.

it's as markiplier once said: you do you, and i'll do me, and we won't do each other. probably.

[stitched-into-one]

I think a lot of systems and a lot of people are talking over each other while saying the same thing. I will not state my opinion on any discourse, but I do want to talk about this.

I’ve seen anti-endos say something and then the next post will be an pro-endo saying the same thing but phrased differently and vice versa. A lot of people don’t know how to communicate, but only know how to argue. People want to get their point across and will say “open to debate” but that usually only means “open to talk over you because I’ve made up my mind and I’m right, everyone else is wrong”. This is not directed at anyone or any side, because most people I’ve seen posting about this, no matter the opinion (or discourse, really), are doing this. And sometimes their both making the same point but because no one is listening to eachother, that point ends up getting lost somewhere.

You can apply this to any discourse of any kind because this happens with pretty much everything. Barely anyone wants to listen because the rules of the world seems to be “whoever yells the loudest gets listened to” and the people who listen get left behind. Is it not possible to be polite to each other? I understand that actions and telling opinions and shouting can be very harmful to others, so why not have a civil debate? You don’t have to like someone, you can hate them, even, but that doesn’t mean that they deserve to be talked over. Being talked over is an emotionally painful experience and can raise everyone’s emotions up and just cause more chaos.

I’m debating whether or not I want to post this, but just know that I’m not going to share my opinion on discourse, that is negativity we don’t need, and honestly every community space seems to be very negative, no matter the view points. Every community is talking so negatively about a different one, no matter the community. This applies to everything, but I’m talking specifically about the sys course we keep seeing.

Hate will be deleted and ignored.

-🦋 (with a lil bit of 🌹)