#and interpreting it as immediate confirmation of a romantic relationship when it really just isn't

[lyxchen]

I keep reading comments regarding actors or also sometimes characters where it's like "I don't ship it but this is so cute" and huh???? Friends are cute with each other??!? Like. All The Time??

I hate how much stuff is made to be exclusively for couples. So many moments of actors being funny or teasing or sweet or caring with each other is literally friendship. But somehow our view of how relationships are has been so warped that you can't say "they're cute" without also having to clarify that you don't ship it. And I think this is much more common online than it is in real life. It is so present in shows and movies that as soon as two characters have a sweet dynamic or good chemistry that they Must be in love.

It's actually so strange to me how many things in media that are usually just normal friendship behaviors are being immediately twisted into romantic love. Like maybe that's just me but I have so many friends that I could (regarding age and gender) have a crush on. And all of these people are Beautiful!! But I've never developed a crush on any of them. Because that's just not how I feel about them. It's so unrealistic to have a crush on every good looking person of the gender you are attracted to, that you meet.

And this is not even about hugs or holding hands or any other physical intimacy (which is also totally normal for friendships). This is about people, friends doing all that cutesy giggly adorable stuff that everyone does with their friends. Looking at somebody while they're talking, poking them for fun, leaning toward them when you're laughing, all of this is stuff that friends regularly do. And it's so normal. But so much media has so agressively portrayed these traits as purely romantic that it has warped our entire view on the relationships of people we watch interact online.

I think there's also that added issue of how men in media are often portrayed as only being cutesy and outwardly sweet with a romantic partner but not with their friends. And suddenly you have people everywhere ship two male actors because they... like sitting next to each other in interviews? Because they try to make each other laugh? Because they are interested in listening to what the other is saying? Because they smile at each other??? Are we okay? How is this not the most normal human behavior to people? This is seriously tripping me up because I also just recently really noticed it. But our online perception of relationships is So Far Off from real life. And we don't even notice.

Anyways tldr is: you can find actors doing cutesy stuff with each other cute without having to worry about it being interpreted as you shipping them. Friends do cute stuff all the time. They're not in love, they're being friends. And those cute moments are very, very normal friendship behaviors

[michaelmilligan]

Do y'all even know how much I rotate post-canon Midam in my mind? Like, every day my brain is speed-running a fix-it where Michael is brought back.

And it can go so many ways.

Michael getting brought back, immediately rushing to Adam, and Adam accepting him back with only love and relief in his heart? Absolutely believable.

Michael being brought back, dragging his feet about going to Adam even though he desperately wants to see him, but also he pretty much betrayed his brothers and sided with God, and when he does finally go see him, Adam hits him with the whole 'How could you, I thought we were friends!' and takes a really long time to be convinced that Michael still likes him and wants to be with him? ALSO absolutely believable.

There's so much in between that, and there are of course several factors influencing which would be more likely - like how much time passes until Michael is brought back, whether Adam has been spending time Sam and Dean or not, and how much they told him, if anything. But at the end of the day, there is I think one big question that decides where it comes out to. And we simply don't see enough of those two on screen to be able to answer that question with any clarity.

The question is, how much of their feelings have these two shared?

And I don't necessarily mean this in a romantic way. I'm all for big dramatic 'I love you's and all that, but this would work just as well with a queer-platonic, or purely platonic, relationship between the two. In fact, I think even if they had exchanged 'I love you's before rapture, that still wouldn't answer this question.

The thing is, how much do they know about the depth of each other's feelings? Do they both know just how much the other wants to be with them? Does Adam know that Michael would burn the world if he asked? Does Michael know that Adam doesn't need him to kill for him, he needs him to LIVE for him? Does Adam know that the reason Michael didn't go back to Heaven is at least 90% him? Does Michael know that Adam isn't just keeping him around because it's convenient, but because he genuinely enjoys hanging out with him?

There is a lot of interpretation here on my part, but yeah, I think whatever configuration you put these two in (romantic/queer-platonic/whatever else), these two are just absolutely unhinged about each other. As in they cannot imagine a life without each other anymore. Adam just spent at least a thousand years with Michael alone. That's the equivalent of several human lifetimes! And for Michael, it's of course considerably less, but do you really think he has been this close with, this focused on anyone since Lucifer fell? Since his family broke apart, and he became a general above anything else? Do you think he isn't absolutely thrilled to have Adam, a guy who doesn't always agree with him but likes him anyway, a guy he is literally chilling in the same body with, as close as two people can conceivably be? You think he's not insane about that guy?

Anyway, this got off track, but I truly do believe that how the fix-it goes depends on whether they know this about each other. How secure they are about each other's feelings. Because I think if Adam knows how Michael feels about him, he's more likely to think along the lines of 'Michael was manipulated by his abusive dad and went back to him, man I wish I could have been there and helped him untangle his emotions, he must have been at rock bottom :(' and less likely something like 'Michael went back to his dad as soon as I was gone, guess he never cared about me at all'.

And I guess in the end it does come down to Adam, because while I can see Michael being insecure and not knowing if Adam will take him back, he would also jump immediately if Adam called for him in a prayer or anything like that. Meanwhile, if Adam is angry, I think Michael would withdraw pretty quickly, which Adam would take as confirmation that Michael never really cared much...

So, yeah. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it can go many ways, and to me it depends heavily on whether they (especially Adam, but also Michael) know how much the other cares for them.

[orionsangel86]

I’m not sure how much sense this will make since it’s almost midnight, but am I crazy for thinking how insane it is for Charles to go “I can’t say that I’m in love with you back or anything” and then immediately follow up with “but there’s no one else who I’d go to Hell for”? Cause like, my brain doesn’t know how to not interpret that as Charles reciprocating Edwin’s specific type of love, but not realizing it. Maybe it’s because I grew up in a super religious household so I already have some predispositions about Heaven and Hell, but my point of view for that is just thinking that someone better be pretty damn special for me to go to Hell for them. Like a wife or kid kind of special.

I don't think its crazy to interpret it that way at all. I think its rare to find that level of devotion among two people and when used as a trope it is usually related to extreme romantic love - see the OG Orpheus and Euridice as the prime example. Charles comparing himself to Orpheus in that moment (however naively because he didn't know how the story ended) is far more telling than he seems to realise.

That's not to say that only people with romantic/passionate feelings for someone can experience that level of devotion. Familial and forms of queer platonic love can also certainly be that devoted, and I have seen a lot of people talking about how they view the boys relationship as a queer platonic one, where Charles in particular, doesn't need to feel romantic love in order to be completely devoted to Edwin. I think that's a really great form of representation and can go someway to explaining how much of a deep and profound bond the two have (as a SPN fan I do not use that term lightly lol).

Though I think throughout the series we see Charles display forms of jealousy towards Edwin's connection with Monty and the Cat King, and he does also confirm he likes Crystal because she reminds him of Edwin - even he was joking at the time. I also think it was lovely that in the confession he doesn't once say that he isn't into guys, or that he doesn't think he could ever feel something more romantic for Edwin. He just says he isn't in love with him at that point. Whether or not that particular statement was the whole truth or just Charles' own form of denial and inability to properly process the confession since they were literally running away from a horrible giant spider doll demon from Hell at that point in time remains to be seen.

I think enough hints have also been dropped during cast and writer interviews that if they get a season two, it will go some way to explore Charles' own feelings and build on the aftermath of that confession. Whatever the situation between them is, it is the primary relationship of the show and it is quite clearly built on love and devotion regardless of what forms they or we interpret that as. They have literally forever to figure it out, and I really hope we get to watch at least some of that!

[ssaseaprince]

I swear anyone who says Hannibal and Will aren't canon just didn't watch the show. It's not implied, it's not hinted, it's not subtext. It's incredibly romantic and is explicitly said so. The moment and embrace they shared at the end of season 3 was so powerful to me. Just because they didn't kiss or say "hehe want to be my boyfriend?" like they're in some teen romcom doesn't mean they aren't a canonical pairing. They got together at the END of the show after it being stated several times that they love each other and can't live without each other and want each other more than anyone. Lines like wanting to run away together and hungering for each other and "is Hannibal in love with me" are, apparently, completely platonic in some people's eyes or just wishful thinking or, christ, queerbaiting (a point I hope no one has made because it's ridiculously stupid). I'm quite happy with the end of season 3, but I'd hope for a 4th season if only, so they can be a couple on screen and people can stop being dumb about the canon of their relationship

I am so sorry that I have taken forever to reply to this, I lowkey forgot that my inbox was a thing 😅

You are completely right. I want to call it a lack of media literacy, but I'm not sure that's the best phrase. As an autistic person, I completely understand struggling with subtext and needing to have things presented in a straightforward, blunt way. However, with Hannigram, you don't even need to rely solely on subtext. Like you pointed out, Will flat out says, "Is Hannibal in love with me?" And then you've got the entire cast, the showrunner, writer, producers, etc, all saying that they are canonically in love.

And because of that, I really struggle to give people the benefit of the doubt when they say that Hannigram isn't canon or that their relationship is "open to interpretation." Because if you were solely confused due to issues with understanding subtext, then you wouldn't get all up in arms about people pointing out that Hannigram IS CANON.

This honestly leads me to believe that the very vast majority of people who will fight tooth and nail to convince everyone that Hannibal and Will aren't in love is because of homophobia.

We are not used to seeing queer relationships in media. There is maybe a handful of movies and TV shows that revolve around queer relationships. So it is people's knee-jerk reaction to assume that every character is straight and that only heterosexual relationships are canon, and it's because of this bias that they will fight against all queer representation and only accept it when the characters are physically affectionate, and even then they will find reasons to claim it's not valid.

Cishet people are a lot like white people, and men, and basically every other majority, in the way that they feel the need to relate to every single main character, otherwise they can't enjoy the show/book/movie etc. Hannibal and Will have been confirmed as canon, in and out of the show. But these people will fight against it because, whether consciously or unconsciously, the second that their characters are confirmed as queer, they immediately can't relate to them and therefore can't enjoy the show.

They see queer people and queer relationships as so *other* that queer representation literally ruins it for them. Maybe this is an extreme analogy, but it's like watching a movie about humans, and then halfway through finding out that they're robots, and all of a sudden, these aren't people that you're familiar with, they are something other. The knowledge that a character is queer is genuinely so incomprehensible to them that they will do anything to deny it.

And I think that kind of thinking is the biggest problem. It's not always done with bad intention, and it's not always conscious, but it's there. You can see actors and actresses who do the same thing. They have such a visceral reaction to the idea that their character might be queer, that they immediately shut it down. Because if the character is queer, the character isn't relatable, and if the character isn't relatable somehow, the show isn't enjoyable.

By relatable, I don't just mean, "They're straight, and I'm straight." I mean that they genuinely see queer people as completely other from them, and they just cannot grasp the existence of queer relationships as actual relationships and not just vague ideas. Yes, they know that queer relationships are real, but they genuinely can not look at a queer relationship or a queer person and actually have any level of deeper empathy and understanding. They see queer relationships are something completely different then cishet relationship, so the second that a queer relationship becomes the focus, they disengage.

This all relates back to people refusing to acknowledge any kind of queer relationship as canon unless physical affection is apparent.

Obviously, not all straight people do this, but it's an issue that's a lot more prominent than what most people think. As soon as you start looking for it, you see it everywhere. I'm not saying these people hate queer people or don't want queer representation, but this kind of homophobia is just so widely accepted and normalized that it's a knee-jerk reaction, and unfortunately, it's so normalized that people don't even realize they have these biases that they need to get rid of.

Sorry this reply is so long and late coming! I appreciate the ask and love hearing your opinions ❤️

[erzherzog-von-edelstein]

If you're still into rusprus, I'd love to hear your answers on 13, 14, 15 from General or 2, 6 from Love for them (of course I don't ask you to answer all of these, choose whichever you prefer)

If I'm still into them? Of course! I wouldn't back away from Prussia's longest alliance as one my favorite ships. I wrote about them fairly recently too. I have unfinished smut of them sitting in my WIP document right this moment.

To show just how still into them I am, I am going to answer all of the questions.

13. Which one thinks they aren't good enough for the other, if at all?

The answer to this one is, ironically, both. Those isolated childhoods gave them both self-worth issues (and anyone who has read my version of Gilbert knows that I tone down his canon bragging a lot). Neither them is vocal or open about not feeling good enough for the relationship, because they learned young that vulnerability leads to pain. Ivan waited a long time to act on his feelings because he felt like he would get rejected and it took the wave of self-confidence that the Napoleonic Wars gave him to actually do something. Gilbert has the problem in all of his relationships that the idea of being attractive to people doesn't occur to him, because he pushed it out of his mind when he was a teenager. They both spent the best years of their relationship still in some disbelief and waiting for the moment when the other person realizes that under the facade, they're both vulnerable.

14. What are some songs that apply to their relationship, in-universe or otherwise?

For someone who keeps playlists for characters, I'm never sure what to post because it all makes sense in my head.

So, here's a few off my RusPru playlist:

15. What is their most common argument about?

Jealousy. They're both possessive people who don't do well with being less important than anyone else in their lover's life. And this isn't even just romantic jealousy (though Ivan still brings up Romania and Austria when he's upset). But this also extends to Ludwig. Ivan did not like being supplanted in Gil's priority list by Ludwig, especially when Ludwig made it pretty clear that he didn't like the Russian alliance. That's still very much a sore spot, and Ludwig causes more arguments between them than anything else.

2. What are their primary love languages?

Ivan - Gifts. If he is giving someone gifts and calling them nicknames, he's in deep.

Gilbert - Acts of Service. His whole life he has been a man of action rather than words. So he will do all sorts of things to make Ivan's life easier because it's how he shows he cares (this goes for Ludwig too)

One of their issues is that both of them sometimes need verbal confirmation of affection, and they're both rather bad at providing it. Ivan had to learn that Gil doesn't immediately interpret being called "my rabbit" as the equivalent of "I love you and I would die for you" and he needs to actually say those words.

6. What are their favorite things to do together?

Oh, Chess, absolutely chess. Those quiet times in Ivan's dacha were spent with a lot of long chess and card games. Anything with strategy.

They used to go hunting together a lot when it was a thing that royal courts did. For a couple reasons: Gil likes to show how good he is at it, Ivan finds watching him amusing, and in the Romanov court it was time away from people who were listening and watching. Less so now because it's not the same kind of experience.

Going out to the ballet. Now, Gil doesn't really like ballet, and he wouldn't go by himself. But he knows that Ivan loves ballet so much, so he'd get dressed up in his best dress uniform and go with him and let Ivan talk about technique and music and aesthetics all night.

[findafight]

Idk if you’re the person to send this to but like

The whole thing with Murray’s comments and Nancy and Jon getting together…. It is set up in such a way that it can be read as a situation where an ambitious teenage girl was pressured into what she was “supposed” to be. Nancy was told by a man that she respected and who took her seriously (and was the ONLY one to do so, so Murray gained an untold amount of trust from Nancy immediately, and the show just brushing off their relationship is such a loss but ok), that in order to be her real self she must dump Steve. Now Murray was just poking at two teenagers with a metaphorical stick to see what would they do. Understandable position, as a younger sister haver love doing that also (not with romantic feelings though but Murray was never meant to be ethical). I doubt that what the comment meant for him can be easily translated into what it meant for Nancy (let alone Jon, who thinks that he is better than most people and that he is definitely better than Steve, so I imagine he was nodding along). But he did influence her into becoming an investigative journalist. Like Murray with him taking Nancy seriously influenced her into two major life altering decisions (career and significant other). Like wow. And they never interacted again! Fucking hate st continuity.

Like Nancy dumping Steve because Murray told her to do so is a major thing. It’s BAD for jancy. Before s4 I thought that they were not mentioning it because jancy happened and was the endgame. But with them toying with stancy and likely knowing that they might toy with stancy all along??? Why did they not leave it open to interpretation. It’s such a juicy storyline, it shows the magnitude of the influence that you can have on a teenage girl, it’s beautiful, it’s painful, it’s the stuff of a real love-triangle (which is hard to make interesting but that would make it interesting!!!). Why did they write it then??? Whyyyyyy?????

oooooh that's so interesting anon!

I am much more of a murray fan when he is being a weird gay conspiracy uncle guy and isn't matchmaking, it must be said.

He and Nancy have the potential for a really interesting dynamic! It really is a shame we don't get to see more of it tbh. and you are so right in what his comment meaning to him and what it meant to Nancy and Jon separately would be so different! I don't know if Nancy would necessarily feel pressured by it, (though I wouldn't say she wasn't, either) but maybe it would vindicate something of how she was feeling about her relationship with Steve at the time and her feelings for Jonathan? Like a "oh this man I respect and who takes me seriously also thinks Jonathan is better for me, thinks I should go for it. Maybe I will..." kind of thing?

And lol yeah so true Jon just had his own conception of himself and Steve and their relationships with Nancy confirmed by Murray. he just kinda got...permission? I guess? to make a move on Nancy even though he was the one bringing up Steve both times he's mentioned on the road trip.

Totally see where you're coming from of Murray's influence not being mentioned because you figured Jancy was endgame, makes sense (if boring) to not question it if it doesn't need to be addressed as an issue because the pairing is canon for the rest. But now the teen love triangle has been brought back.... you're so right it is bad for Jancy. It brings up stuff about them that a lot of people (especially the Duffers!) don't want to deal with or acknowledge. Though I don't think they were planning the whole time to bring stancy back I think that sort of happened because the duffers unfortunately don't know what to do with Nacy if she doesn't have a boy to look at and Steve when he isn't pining over Nancy.

There's not enough time left to fully and satisfyingly delve into the issues between the original older teens, especially since some of those issues aren't treated as issues. It would be interesting to see, and also so so juicy, the complicated relationship they have with each other because of the UD etc, but I don't think a whole lot of interesting canon material will come from it (though that doesn't mean fan content can't!!) just based on how other romantic relationships and their dynamics with each other have been treated through the show. tbh I think maybe s5 will tease the love triangle but ultimately either end up with them all single (my preference) or with Jancy still together.

[lukevonhagen]

my take on marius von hagen: part two, neglect

hello beautiful world and all who inhabit it, welcome to episode two of "z likes to make marius worse"! in this episode, i'm going to be going over my interpretation of marius' family dynamic in canon, as opposed to how i headcanon it should be (in my humble opinion).

edit: wow this is about 1.2k words and not under a read more, sorry!

the catalyst for this post is a tweet............... that resonated with my version of marius, but i felt didn't make sense for canon marius.

firstly, i'd like to say that to my recollection, canon marius has never given off any kind of indication his family was neglectful. busy? absolutely. but, with the way he explained things, it always came off like they made sure to always make time for him. for example, he talks about the importance of a lover's tradition he has in his immediate family in his card where he bakes with mc, it's such a profound thing that he says he never understood until he himself fell in love. it's intimate and yet, marius had such a close proximity to his family that he was privy to that.

in other words, marius' desire for something so strongly [because he saw what his father and brother had] reads as him being around them plenty enough to be able to discern that romantic love was different from familial love. he confirms he knows what a familial love is in the same breath as his confession that he wanted to know what a romantic love felt like.

the biggest piece of evidence though, to me, is when marius says he hadn't left stellis until he was older because his family was worried for his safety after that traumatic incident that left him afraid of being in dark and claustrophobic spaces.

contextually, all of these things seem to only prove that marius was not only around giann and austin all the time, but as a child he was likely smothered by them because they were looking to protect him. if his family were neglectful of his person, i feel it would reflect in the way he interacts with them in the present. we've seen his relationship to his father, and there's nothing tense about it; they talk comfortably, and austin even teases him like marius teases others. marius isn't uncomfortable with confiding in his father, and he's fiercely protective of his brother; he loves his family, and constantly makes sacrifices to protect them.

now, because i like to make marius worse instead of fixing him, here is where i shift strictly into headcanon territory.

this is how i feel the von hagen family dynamic should be, based on what we know about marius so far:

marius has a strained relationship to his father. giann was the glue that held the rest of the family together, and in his disappearance, the relationship between marius and austin began to crumble once again.

this =/= me saying austin was abusive or that he was a bad father, i just think that in the grand scheme of things, it made sense that he was emotionally absent and unavailable.

short explanation of my thoughts on the topic: emotional neglect is a thing marius experienced because of the tragedy that changed his family before he was even old enough to know a family that wasn't broken up already. austin certainly wasn't around as much and kinda left everything to giann, not because he didn't care about marius, but because he had no idea how to talk to his younger son and how to process his emotions correctly. he lost his wife and was still grieving, and in the wake of his grief, he was unable to tend to the needs of his son who suffered because of it. giann was better off simply because he was the older son and was able to be more independent.

long explanation: after someone else planted the seed that marius was responsible for this horrible trauma that was inflicted on the von hagen family unit, marius began to earnestly believe that he was responsible for the death of his mother.

as a result, marius got really sick, physically, because of the stress this put on his young mind and body. austin, in his own mess, was unable to properly tend to his son because he couldn't internalize and work through his own feelings of grief, and was not present to discuss this brush of emotion marius was left to deal with by himself. austin's only solution due to this separation was to try to get professional help for marius' ailment. when that didn't work, he sent him away, thinking a change of scenery would help him in his own grief.

in this version of events, marius did not heal properly. (as i have mentioned before, i don't believe the ferris wheel story is very realistic or likely, because i don't think marius has the emotional maturity to be able to heal himself from his anguish. he was only a child.) he simply realized that he needed to "atone" for his "sin" of existing by making sure that his mother's death was not in vain. he devoted himself to becoming the picture perfect second son of the von hagen family, in order to protect his family name and make sure nothing befell of them in the future.

after all, he saw himself as a blight that ruins things for the people around him. first, his mother, and then giann when he disappeared. marius worked even harder, by that point, to preserve giann's legacy because it's a tangible thing he could focus on whilst trying to find out where he is and what happened to him. it wasn't that marius didn't not still feel the love of his mother (of course he feels it in the little things that shows she's still always going to be a part of his life, even though he didn't get to know her), but it's more like he felt he didn't deserve it, because he's the reason she lost her life.

all of this trauma and the feelings of self-loathing he internalized as a result of his mother's death forced him to grow up too fast, and he grew up without the emotional attention and crutch afforded from a father. only giann was really there for him in the emotionally complex way he needed to be, but giann had his own responsibilities and his own life to tend to as well.

marius would grow to resent his father as an adult, but would be conflicted in feeling that way, because it all circles back to marius thinking he needs to prove that his mother didn't die for nothing and that he deserves everything that came his way. giann was the person between them that made communication possible, and when he left, marius didn't even have that to fall back on.

i don't mind that in canon, marius and austin seem to have a great relationship; it makes sense that the von hagens stick together when people try to screw them over. it's just not really my cup of tea knowing what i know. if hoyoverse didn't throw in random traumatic events, marius having the picture perfect family and having a more easygoing disposition would be more believable and because of this, sometimes i feel like his traumas do him a disservice. it makes sense that if his traumas were explored in a way that was more meaningful, he and his family would be more broken… and the dog eat dog high society world they live in contributed more to it.

marius' resentment towards the perpetual façade of his fame, in turn, would just be a natural progression of the state of things.

[coralhoneyrose]

Really depressed and disappointed with the handling of the groom Robin unit. The moment I saw the theme of the banner I was nervous that there would be some sort of line somewhere in his dialogue, or the paralogue, or tempest trials that was going to explicitly pull some sort of "no homo" nonsense with Chrom. I was mildly comforted when I saw the meet the heroes text talking about the blue rose corsage that maybe I was worrying over nothing. But then sure enough, we get a throw away line where Robin comments on Chrom getting married to someone else.

It feels like a slap in the face after all the ship bait the last year. One of the most wonderful things about their DoD duo unit was that NO WHERE in any of the promotion or dialogue for that unit was there any sort of friend zoning. They were referred to as "partners" and while it was intentionally left ambiguous enough that people could still try and read it platonically if they wanted, there was DEFINITELY nothing de-confirming it as being romantic. And then with Robin's legendary unit too it really went out of its way to leave open the interpretation that L!Robin was married to a Chrom. And I'll admit, I think the fact that Engage had so many same sex pairing options made me cautiously optimistic that IS was starting to do better with how they handle this stuff.

So for them to then turn around and make a point of having Groom Robin comment that Chrom got married to someone else just...it makes me feel exploited honestly. It feels very much like they knew they could capitalize on shipper's money with those other units and so they allowed the potential reading of Chrom and m!Robin as being a romantic pairing for as long as it was convenient and profitable for them. And then as soon as it wasn't fitting the narrative they were trying to build in order to make money they immediately revert to discounting it.

Cause that's the other thing that gets me. They didn't HAVE to have Robin comment on Chrom's wedding at all. They could have very easily just not mentioned it and left it up to player interpretation. But no, they decided to expressly make a point of emphasizing that the Chrom from this Robin's world is married to someone else.

And I know for a lot of Chrobin fans this isn't necessarily even incompatible with their head canons. A lot of fans are happy to imagine that Chrom might initially marry someone else to have Lucina and then ultimately divorce them and marry Robin later in life. But personally, I have always found that idea tremendously depressing and I am not a fan of that narrative at all. I am not interested in the idea of Chrom making himself miserable in a marriage to someone he doesn't love and I do not like the idea of Lucina having anyone else as her parent except for Robin.

There are other workable explanations too--multiverses and different timelines means that some Chroms could be married to Robins and others aren't. Or Chrom and Robin could be poly, for example. I'm not saying there aren't any mental jumps you can make in order to force this dialogue line to be compatible with some version of Chrobin being together. But even if there are explanations that work, I think it's pretty transparent what IS was trying to do in including the line in the first place. The intention of it is still to wave a little banner in fan faces saying this Robin is not married to Chrom and that Chrom actively *is* in a relationship with someone else. And the fact of the matter is that line DOES shut down any and all versions of how *I* like to envision the pairing working. So of course I'm going to be disappointed.

I'm well aware that the nature of any head canon is that I shouldn't be surprised that canon isn't catering to my personal imagined story line. Especially when Chrom and M!Robin can't get married in original Awakening. I know that.

But again....engage and the DoD unit, and Robin's legendary and even 3H to a lesser extent all made me cautiously optimistic that they were starting to handle things differently. For the last *year* they have very expressly been making a point of allowing my little preferred headcanons to be viable, and actively feeding into them in a lot of cases. In point of that, there has been so much hopeful fan speculation that if they ever make an awakening remake years down the line, that they probably WOULD allow m!Robin and Chrom to S-support. And this feels like a very clear indication to me that no, they wouldn't do that actually, they are only interested in teasing m!Chrobin when they can profit from it in a gacha game, and are perfectly happy to turn around and try and invalidate it again after. And now I just feel stupid for getting my hopes up and thinking they wouldn't do this.

Frankly, it completely ruins any ability I would have had to enjoy this unit at all. Which sucks, because his art is lovely and getting new content of a character I love SHOULD be a wonderful positive thing. I can try and ignore the line and pretend I guess, but honestly it's going to be hard for me to divorce all these upset feelings from it. Maybe with a little more time and space. Idk.

[cangrellesteponme]

Hello. I just discovered your blog, and I wanted to ask you something regarding Devils and Realist. Mind you, I have never read the manga nor watched the anime. Is Dantelion a teenager or an adult? I'm asking because I've seen people ship him with William, who's 17, and from what I can gather, William seems to be a reincarnation of Dantelion's past master. I just hope that this isn't a Seb*ciel situation is all I'm saying.

Hi anon, welcome to hell, aka my blog.

I'm going to be honest with you there, it's questionable at best. I cannot give you a definitive answer on "is this ship morally acceptable?", but I want you to be able to figure that out for yourself, so I'm going to give you all of the facts as I know them. With minimal spoilers.

(However I can very easily say that this is not a Seb*ciel situation. We're not talking about p*dobait written by someone who depicts children in gross and undefendable ways at every single occasion. We're also not talking about content that can and has been used to groom children. So if your concern is about real life influences and consequences, don't worry- this is inconsequential compared to the disgusting sins of Kuro.)

So, what do we know about Dantalion/William?

Starting with the "this is weird!!" parts:

William is 17 at the beginning of the manga, and Dantalion thinks he's Solomon immediately. At that point it has already been implied (and guessed by William himself) that D and S were lovers. We never see Dantalion in his human (don't quote me on that the lore is messy) youth, and though his human form is supposedly of an appropriate age for the setting (17-18) it's barely different from his true form (yeah, the millennia-old one, which does canonically look youthful, but also if he's as scary as canon says he is I'm going to assume it's youthful as in under 30). Demons sort of canonically care more about age than physical appearance (I'm making this assumption based on Lamia. Dantalion seems to be the only one who minds.) which... complicates things. William is canonically a completely separate person (and soul) from Solomon, so yes that's a 17-18 year old, 100%.

Now the "I mean... I guess it works?" parts:

William turns 18 in the manga, and the most popular (and heavily supported by canon, with things like "Your soul should know") interpretation is that Dantalion only really likes William near the very end of the manga. You could even argue the only somewhat romantic thing between them happens in the very last chapter (but that's only if you don't count the countless moments when Dantalion misses Solomon so much William just has to witness his intense yearning). None of the romance is confirmed, the only person who's canonically attracted to Dantalion is Gilles (I refuse to add Lamia. It's depicted both too childishly and too politically to matter.) but even that is arguably not true and that's... a whole other issue I'm not going to get into right now. Makai Ouji is not a romance, the main plot is political intrigue with lots of occult BS.

And finally the "this could go either way but it needs to be considered and interpreted because it's relevant" parts:

This manga (and anime) is very queerphobic (this is not up for debate. dare question my words and I will get angry.) in many (unintentional, I think) ways and its "unapologetic" depictions of "in your face" queerness are bad (Gilles. he's so bad he makes Grelle look like good trans rep. and I love him but this is terrible.), but also it does not shy away from representing unhealthy relationships that could very much seem queer (Michael and Uriel are just one example among many). But it has always depicted Dantalion and William as healthy. (Which gave me whiplash reading the manga because Dantalion and Solomon were mutually destructive. The contrast is baffling.) All of the canon romances are m/f (Gilles/Dantalion is one-sided and only seen a few times. and again, could not be an actual thing). Lots of romantic tropes and typical subplots apply to Dantalion/William.

And my very simplified opinion (for your own peace of mind, or need to unfollow/block me):

ngl I'm just here to see Dantalion yearn for Solomon, some dead guy who never treated him right. Dantalion/William? whatever I don't fucking care I don't ship it. if you ask me (sorry if you don't get that reference), shipping them is like shipping inukag, but I was an inukyo bitch. (like sure, I could like the alive, currently canon version... but why the fuck would I? also similar age gap) I think the romantic moments are peak romance because the angst is spicy as hell. and Dantalion says the cutest shit (again, "Your soul should know" fucking haunts me, this dude wants Solomon to be there so fucking bad it's lovely and sad). but as I've said, it's technically not canon? like, even the gayest interpretation of Makai Ouji is that these hoes still don't date. honestly if Dantalion/William really bothers you it's still readable, just skip the very last page of the manga and you'll be fine? even the end isn't that bad. if you want to avoid questionable/triggering things in Makai Ouji this ship isn't what you should be worried about. worry about the homophobia, transphobia, (we're talking Kuro levels and above) issues of consent (but it is depicted as bad. there's just a lot going on.), weird amount of whiteness????, and other things. but again, it's readable, the anime is worse than the manga tho (it's really not that bad still).