#anti baelon targaryen

[atopvisenyashill]

i have this theory that if more of her children had lived (especially gael), alysanne would have expressed anger at baelon for going along with stealing rhaenys' inheritance.

but at this point she literally only had baelon, so she decided to swallow her pride and support him.

what do you think?

Well we actually don't know if Alysanne expressed anger at Baelon over this; the narrative is largley silent on Baelon's reaction to being named Prince of Dragonstone and completely silent on how Alysanne treats Baelon, Viserys, and Daemon afterwards. Also, Gael dies several years after Baelon was named; in fact, Gael dies two years after Rhaenyra is born, so Viserys and Baelon are already well entrenched in the capital. Alysanne is also not shy about expressing her anger at her husband in this time period and it seems implied she doesn't really express any affection for Viserys during or even after the second quarrel; there's no mention as to whether she returns from dragonstone for the wedding, whether she's there for rhaenyra's birth, whether she had a hand in viserys or aemma's match even - and we still don't know if daemon's match with rhea royce is the result of alysanne, baelon, or jaehaerys either. beyond that, alysanne is actively campaigning for rhaenys at several points so i don't think it's out of the realm of possibility to say she is pissed off at baelon - it's just that none of the biographers give a shit about that aspect of her life, because that complicates her from the perfect mother, perfect queen, who uses soft power, to a woman who is deeply hurt and betrayed by the two men she is shown to be closest by, and that it completely ruins the twilight years of her life.

with daella, alyssa, and viserra all long dead, aemon recently dead, and long barred from seeing saera, yeah, all alysanne has left is baelon and gael, along with maegelle and vaegon, but i do think that's part of the problem; both times, i get the sense that maegelle is like,,,,basically gaslighting her mother into going back to jaehaerys, and maegelle is the only person alysanne really has left talk to, with gael being kind of an eternal child and baelon being part of the reason she's so upset. so i actually kind of disagree here - i think alysanne likely did voice anger at baelon, and baelon, alongside maegelle, basically told her to just get the hell over it, and it took several years of alysanne slowly getting more sick, slowly losing more of her memory, losing her physical connection to her dragon, and probably rewriting her own memories of her relationship with jaehaerys before she finally was broken down enough by the ungrateful brats she had left to "forgive" jaehaerys and come back home, but even then, it seems unlikely she and jaehaerys were at all close past this point, and we get very little mention of alysanne being close to baelon again. i think towards the end of her life, alysanne really was just not in contact with much of her family besides gael, rhaenys, and maegelle, and she's being like, actively manipulated in some heinously elder abusey ways by maegelle on top of being an older mother.

[ride-thedragon]

I used to love Baelon and Alyssa until I realized that if, as a child, someone told me I was 'made for someone', how deeply that would affect me.

Then he's the father of Daemon and Viseyrs. Like the incestous, put Rhaenyra between us, weird brothers.

He never stood a chance, babies. He's the reason Rhaenys didn't sit the throne.

Y'all wanted him to be Maekar so bad, and I was never sure that he didn't sleep with Viserra, so.....

[natividadmoon]

The fact that Baelon allowed Viserys to consummate the marriage with a 13-year-old Aemma (not caring about the excuses you give me) already puts him on the same level for me, of perversity and evil of characters like Tywin and Viserys iii with Sansa and Daenerys respectively.

[fuhhhhhh]

the andal laws only apply when a women is benefiting from something .

the TG will always say that " Rhaenyra would't be recognised as queen because of andal law " But let me tell you something if andal law was applied back then Viserys would not be king Because :

By the andal law a man cannot have a second wife while he is married to his first wife . so , Visenya would be racognised as the legal wife of Aegon i not rhaenys that means by andal law Maegor would be Aegons rightful heir not Aenys because aegons , marriage with Rhaenys is not recognised as legal . So, that means Maegor did not usurp his Half-older brother because the throne is rightfully his .

After maegor died . Since , he did not have any children the throne will pass over to Aenys i but since he is died the throne will go to aegon the uncrowned but since he is also died the throne will pass over to his daughter princess Aerea by the andal law a daughter comes before an uncle {jaehaerys } Jaehaerys by the law tecnically he would be be recognised as a usurper .

So, after Jaehaerys i is king his heir is prince aemon but since prince aemon is dead the throne will pass over to his daughter princess rhaenys ii will be queen but the throne was pass over to prince baelon , so lets consider rhaenys was the heir then by the andal law ser leanor would be the king and since he married rhaenyra she will be the queen consort and since jacaerys is legally recognised as his son so he will be king .

So , by applying andal law in the above situation viserys is not even a candidate to be king it seems it only applys when a woman is benefiting from something , like rhaenyra who was recognised as her fathers heir for ten years straight .

by the andal law the above man would be recognised as usurpers who stole the crown from the rightful heir

[alicent-archive]

Rhaenyra and Alicent go to the Dragonpit to select a dragon egg for Aemma’s unborn baby. Up until that point, Rhaenyra had been the one selecting the eggs, but this time, she wants Alicent to pick one. Alicent selects a black egg, and the reason she picks it is because the colour reminds her of Rhaenyra’s riding clothes.

When Baelon dies, the egg is returned to the Dragonpit.

Once Alicent is heavily pregnant, Viserys mentions that an egg has to be chosen for the baby. Rhaenyra would’ve been the one choosing the egg, but Rhaenyra isn’t on talking terms with anyone.

Viserys chooses the egg instead, and when Alicent returns to her chambers, inside the fireplace is a black egg. Visery’s tells her that it was Baelon’s egg, and Alicent almost snaps and tells him that, yes, she knows it was Baelon’s egg. She had been the person to pick it.

She doesn’t snap. She smiles. And that’s that.

Alicent realises, looking at the egg, that Viserys didn’t choose an egg for her baby, he chose an egg for Aemma’s baby; for Baelon.

As if the prince was still alive, as if Baelon walked among them.

When the egg hatches, from inside squirms a golden, glimmering dragon.

It reminds Alicent of a certain yellow dragon she used to visit almost everyday.

When Aegon is old enough to say single words, he calls the dragon Sun.

When he’s old enough to understand sentences, he calls the dragon Sunfyre.

[elanorar]

At this point, I just wish certain individuals in this fandom would read the damn text instead of making nonsensical or false claims about Aegon III’s inheritance because Fire and Blood clearly states that he inherited the throne through Rhaenyra.

Despite her name being erased from the line of succession, King Aegon III is listed as Rhaenyra’s heir, not Aegon II’s, and gets his title from her. As stated by the text, “Aegon III, Rhaenyra’s son”.

Similarily, Viserys I is also listed as King Jaehaerys’ grandson and heir, not Prince Baelon’s son, and Jaehaerys himself was listed as Aenys son and heir, not Maegor the Cruel’s, who reigned before him.

The paradox of the Dance is that although Rhaenyra was not recognized as the Queen, they still rely on her name to crown her son by calling him her heir and placing him in the line of succession.

"History doesn't remember blood, it remembers names," and history sure as hell remembered that Aegon III, Viserys II, and every other Targaryen King descended from Rhaenyra Targaryen.

[agentrouka-blog]

Baelon/Alyssa literally give me creeps. Like ok if you want a lot of children good for you, I don't judge that, but the way Alyssa talked it seemed as if she believed her entire existence was to birth sons for her brother, and she had no purpose other than that. Ironically the people who stan her because she was a targaryen and a tomboy like Arya are also the one who criticize Sansa for not being 'feminist' enough. I laugh- 🤣

I find her complete convenience to the men around her suspicious, especially in the context of just how deeply harsh their parents were with the disappointing children.

In an atmosphere of deep misogyny, where even her favorite brother is at first bothered by her adoration because she is a girl, where her niece is rejected as heir because she is a girl, she just so happens to both reject other girls as worthy company, and also jubilantly embrace her role as back-up broodmare to the point of making a public spectacle of her sex life? She "mounts" her brother that she never had a choice but to marry like it's up to her own volition and makes sure everyone knows how much she is into it? How perfectly she fits into the role other people decided she should fill? That just so happens to be her natural inclination? She's not compensating for anything at all? But she's also totally not like those annoying other girls? Twenty sons, she wants to give Baelon but no girls? Girls who would also become broodmares, like Daella? But Alyssa was "made for" childbirth? No internalized misogyny anywhere in the vicinity? No?

Sure.

[lemonhemlock]

What do you think would have happened if Baelon Targaryen (son of Viserys and Aemma) survived?

rhaenyra would never have been named heir then. she would have still held resentment for her father murdering her mother by forcing repeated pregnancies on her, perhaps her resentment would have been transferred to her brother as well. but ultimately a good marriage could have been arranged for her and she would have lived her life as a very privileged, rich lady.

viserys could have still needed a wife for a spare son, i imagine. that could have been alicent or not. i imagine that alicent being the mother of a future half-hightower king was a very attractive prospect for otto. in this scenario, alicent would only be mother to spare princes, but the possibility of her daughter marrying baelon and becoming queen herself could not be discounted. and, in any case, otto is a second son himself, so making his own daughter queen is still quite the deal for his branch of the family. but perhaps in this scenario their wedding would not have been so rushed and alicent not quite so traumatised by early motherhood.

all in all, this would have been a better prospect for the kingdom, since there would be no debate over the line of succession

[daenerysies]

I’m so glad you don’t like Viserys, there seems to be this idea in the Team Black fandom you’re a hater if you don’t love him.

yeah, i have no idea where that came from. viserys is the most incompetent loser of the whole show (and considering his eldest son is aegon ii, that’s really saying something). he neglects all of his children, seems to be completely unaware of the conflict rising between both sides of his family and willfuly exasperates it, along with all but causing the dance of the dragons with his inability to act. not to mention he spent all of aemma’s preteen and teen years impregnating her until he ultimately has her murdered for a son that doesn’t live, and then proceeds to marry another child to ‘ease his burdens’ in terms of the lords telling him to remarry (he as the king cannot stand his ground against them for whatever reason). he puts rhaenyra in direct danger because of his horrible decisions. he sucks as a king, as a brother, as a husband, as a cousin, as a father. any good quality of his is immediately overshadowed by his apparent awfulness. i cannot stand him.

[melodymidway]

The discourse about "stolen" Vhagar is so nonsensical yet popular and supported among the fandom due to the general tradition of loathing the Greens no matter what that I can't help but add my five cents.

- If you have already decided to ignore the fact that a dragon isn't some item that can be passed down from parent to child and that any member of the Targaryen family can claim a free dragon regardless of who rode it before, then maybe you should remember that Vhagar's rider used to be Baelon Targaryen, who was Aemond's grandfather just as much as he was Rhaena's.

- Besides, neither of Baelon's sons, Viserys and Daemon, "inherited" Vhagar. Instead, she was claimed by Laena Velaryon, who isn't even from Baelon's line, being his brother's granddaughter.

But sure, Aemond had no right to try to get a dragon and absolutely deserved to be maimed for life while Team Black children are saint angels who got terribly robbed.

[horizon-verizon]

In the book, Aemond seems to have quite an obsession with Daemon. Where do you think it comes from, and how would you interpret/characterize it ?

I’m still thinking about it in ways that aren’t already know or talked about in the current fandom and here on Tumblr. So bear with me here. I might do many edits on this post in the immediate and far futures.

*Update* I was right.

In all and of the two, Daemon acts more out of love than Aemond does, even with him being as violent and brutal as he is. Daemon is flawed and cruel, while Aemond is evil and cruel, though both are ambitious. They both acted out of a lack of love or attentions or recognition at some point.

By and large, Aemond is a character who finds his personhood only through disenfranchising others. He is the potently evil shadow of Daemon. Aemond is a character who lacks love or a true understanding of respect and considers Daemon the beast to slay to solidify and validate his own existence, worthiness, and masculinity.

A)

Aemond is Daemon’s narrative and literary foil. 

A foil is:

a literary device designed to illustrate or reveal information, traits, values, or motivations of one character through the comparison and contrast of another character. A literary foil character serves the purpose of drawing attention to the qualities of another character, frequently the protagonist. This is effective as a means of developing a deeper understanding of a character by emphasizing their strengths and weaknesses. In addition, a literary foil allows writers to create a counterpart for the protagonist that puts their actions and choices in context.

B)

Both

They are both fighters with skill. Both are brutal and willing to get violent (but in different ways and reasons). Both are Targaryens and proud of it. Both want the throne or a strong claim to it. Both are second sons tasked with the role of supporting their older, not-very-competent or completely incompetent brother to keep or gain the throne and are passionate about it (for different reasons). Both squirm with the thought that their existence and purpose is to support such brothers but for different reasons.

And as @theblackqveen says, they even both have a connection to Visenya the Conqueror through her dragon and her sword.

Daemon

1)

Daemon is uncaring of not-family people. Not hateful, just uncaring and thus willing to spill their blood if that will bring him results (Jaime Lannister).  Canonically (not HotD), he is a charismatic, violent, and ambitious man.  He creates the gold cloaks and inspires the preexisting city guardsmen into believing in their own validity and strengths by revamping their looks, etc.

His mother died when he was 3 from labor complications. Unlike Viserys who seemed to have responded to this by being too much a people pleaser, Daemon sought to completely look out for a small set of people he would think of as his family or “close ones”. 

Baelon’s grief would have inspired such reactions from his sons--Viserys to be eager and affectionate, obviously caring. He wants to believe that hospitality and following a sense of duty to those around him will bring him love or contentment. He may have found it difficult not to judge Daemon for taking a “misguided” approach or path, so when Daemon disagrees with him or disobeys his order or does something that is conventionally upsetting, he may have found it difficult to relate to Daemon or see things from his persepctive. While Daemon would, in my mind, is outwardly or superficially crotchety and unwilling to seek/initiate obvious intimacy but needing to be validated through his family and loved ones. However, he doesn’t think words or hugs brings comfort or favorable outcomes--he depends on action. 

So he develops his own moral compass that is just adjusted to “do these people act like I matter to them and do they matter to me” all the fucking time because he comes from a dwindled, fraught lineage (Rhaenys' death in Dorne; Aenys' conflicts and stress with the Faith; the Faith; the conflict with Maegor and threat towards Jaehaerys/Alysanne; the internal issues in Jaehaerys' early reign and Rogar Baratheon; Aemond, Baelon, Alyssa, Viserra, Daella, Daenerys-- nearly all Jaehaerys and Alysanne's children die & Jaehaerys' political focus on the Targ's dominance-survival). That plus he wants to, in some way, bring glory, prosperity, and more power to his house.

Daemon and Viserys would have still received the genuine love of their father, Baelon, and would have grown up together as caring brothers, enough that they would know they loved each other. We have reason to believe that his upbringing was still loving and that he maybe thought himself his brother and father’s caretakers. If not in traditional sense, in that he is the one who will do “what it takes” to keep them afloat. In his mind. Especially after his father passes form a “burst belly”, leaving him and Viserys alone. Seeing how Viserys is so eager for validation and willing to have others have a say in what he does, it makes sense that he falls into this protector role even deeper.

2)

He also wanted to be an example of excellence and make a name for himself, especially with being a second son and without a clear, solid inheritance of authority. Second sons in this feudal society are thought of as “spares” in one sense, since if their older brothers die they can take their place and inherit the family resources and the authority over the house. so he’d have felt more pressure to prove himself in the shadow of his brother (while he wasn’t much of a warrior or inclined to develop physical prowess, Viserys was also considered quite attractive before he gained weight).

3)

He supports Viserys in that he was wiling to use a group of fighters to go against Corlys and his group for Viserys’ claim before Jaehaerys I called for the Great Council of 101 A.C:

Reports had reached the court that Corlys Velaryon was massing ships and men on Driftmark to “defend the rights” of his son, Laenor, whilst Daemon Targaryen, a hot-tempered and quarrelsome young man of twenty, had gathered his own band of sworn swords in support of his brother, Viserys. A violent struggle for succession was likely no matter who the Old King named to succeed him.

(Fire and Blood; A Question of Succession)

Yet, at 16 Alysanne marries him to Rhea Royce (the Runestone heir), and while this was a good practical marriage for creating more ties to the Vale and setting up Daemon with some money through his wife’s properties, etc., Daemon did not like the atmosphere, look, anything of the Vale, probably how far away it was from King’s Landing/Viserys--thus the emotional and physical isolation. That he was basically sidelined by his family, kept apart.

He likely thought that since Viserys already had Aemma Arryn (the person who even was the scion of the Lord of the Vale, he himself didn't need to also marry another Vale woman not of his choosing). [headcanon]

Viserys did not let him annul his marriage to Rhea despite its failure. Viserys is directly involved with Mysaria losing her child with Daemon when he forced Daemon to bring back the dragon egg and send her off to Lys:

When he learned that his concubine was pregnant, Prince Daemon presented her with a dragon’s egg, but in this he again went too far and woke his brother’s wroth. King Viserys commanded him to return the egg, send his whore away, and return to his lawful wife, or else be attainted as a traitor. The prince obeyed, though with ill grace, dispatching Mysaria (eggless) back to Lys, whilst he himself flew to Runestone in the Vale and the unwelcome company of his “bronze bitch.” But Mysaria lost her child during a storm on the narrow sea. When word reached Prince Daemon he spoke no syllable of grief, but his heart hardened against the king, his brother. Thereafter he spoke of King Viserys only with disdain, and began to brood day and night on the succession.

(Fire and Blood; A Question of Succession)

4)

He was also not at all attracted to his new wife. So now he knows what it’s like to be a political tool, or he feels like more of a device than a person part of something “great”? (I say somewhat facetiously, he still is a feudal man who is very proud of his aristocratic lineage throughout all 3 of his marriages)

And so their marriage becomes barren (no kids). She comes to hates him too for not loving her home, for openly showing his disdain for it and for her, and perhaps she feels he is unwilling to do his duty like her and she feels resentment towards him and his ability to just fuck off while also being happier with him gone [headcanon].

Daemon doesn’t and never has considered her “family”, is the point nor ever to be in the same league as him, not just because she wasn't royal. Partially because Targs are and have been considered unique and nation-movers right from the Conquest in broader Westerosi culture. She is not a Targ or someone he can think of as his match or someone he thinks could do as much a a Targ can, which presents very interesting questions as to whether or not his pride can be equated to Lannister exceptionalism...I'd say that, eh. The Targs have put their money where their mouth was in most of their generations (and we the readers know that like the Starks but more apparent, the Targs are the closest to being magical beings or have the closest access to real magic) while the Lannisters are more famous and powerful in the main storyline bc of Tywin's reputation gained from the Rains of Castamere/friendship with Aerys II (a Targ) and Steffon Baratheon [the allegiance gives power trio for a while that reflected back on Tywin]. So there's a level of him not believing that they could ever relate to each other. He might have thought it was like trying to get an elephant to mate with a zebra.

I don't think that we should tell people they shouldn't dislike him for that bc yes his person can read as arrogant and he's still a prince/male who has a lot of benefits over a woman like Rhea (but not the authority she has over her own men as a female ruler in her own right, which some might argue grinds his gears more as a second son and this is actually a very interesting and valid thought...but I also doesn't think it bothered him for long to have a wife who has more practical power over others than him since his marriage to Rhaenyra saw no attempts of him barrowing over her, so that would support the idea that Rhea having this wasn't really the issue). But considering how

Still, it's not because of anything she did to him, but because she was someone who enables him to be in a position that he really does not want to be in and he believes it’s unlikely that he’d ever get any sort of glory or power all the way in the Vale, away from King’s Landing, away from the throne. It’s also probable that she also had a very different--sort of "duty is everything, sacrifice your pleasure and making compromises aside"--personality than his, thus convincing him even less to actually try to forge some sort of bond with her. Stern, but too serious, punctilious, and [for him] overly tradition-bound and scrupulous. But who knows?! [headcanon]

Laena and Rhaneyra, though? They both obviously had a lot more in common with him other than being dragonriders than he ever did with Rhea. Laena has her adventurous-ness and some daring, and Rhaenyra has pride and that “restlessness” that Viserys of HotD mentions, that unwillingness to accept a lot or assignment. They are also both his closer blood relatives, real family (remember that he grew up alone with his brother and father, a small set emotionally dependent on each other but also probably not that expressive). Those marriages were better for him, both personally and politically.

Daemon also named his kids after loved people in his life or people who will give love to his daughters.

“Baela” -- “Baelon”. “Rhaena” -- “Rhaenys”.

Viserys (II) after Daemon's own brother, Rhaenyra after her father, and both to spite/oppose Alicent & give their son the cloak of Targ-ness and kingliness: out of pride/love, the latter the stranger reason while the former the icing on the cake.

Aegon (III) after Aegon the Conqueror (king-liness and house pride) & to spite/oppose Alicent.

"Visenya", after the woman who loved her siblings and son and put them first over herself or the realm.

5)

He strategizes more logically than Aemond does and is less prone to act on his anger. Contrast this QUOTE with THIS and THIS.

6)

He specifically distrusts other houses and nonfamily bc the Targs are the pinnacle of power with their dragons, conqueror past, and prestige. He knows other lords--like Otto and pretty much all the mentioned Hightowers (think Maegor, Ceryse Hightower, and the High Septon at the time)--will always have their own agendas.

The reason why Valyrian dragonslords literally kept it in the family was to keep their control of the dragons within their respective families so people like the Lannisters (Queen Dowager Rhaena, Jaehaerys' and Alysanne's older sister) or some nondragonlord Vlayrian family couldn't then acquire dragons to use them against them.

Again, bc he and his brother and father became their own unit--and then it was just him and Viserys--that sense of needing to stick together against others would and did only strengthen.

Aemond

1)

Aemond, by contrast, has little justified reason to hate Rhaenyra like Daemon hated or grew emotionally distant from Viserys. 

While Alicent taught him to hate her, he still grew up with the assumption that he could and should destroy/rape people because his male, trueborness allows him to. His preoccupation with his maleness makes him think that he should usurp the heir, even though the law and precedent of “King’s word is law” (Viserys naming Rhaenyra as his heir and never straying) justifies his & the Greens’ treasonous actions. 

Daemon, though he hated that Viserys named Rhaenyra as heir and not him, never actively tried to depose her or his own brother. Does Daemon have his own classist entitlement and ambitions, of course! He's a very proud prince in a feudal system with a family/house with a relatively short but twisted past as monarchs. He is also the person who walked around with non-nobles like a smallfolk in KL, like those in the City's Watch and inspired people to want to follow him.

2)

While Aemond grew up dragonless for 10 years, he was surrounded by family and Hightower supporters since birth who show no sign of mistreating him, at all -- unlike in the show. He does claim Vhagar he at 10, which is impressive (while cradle-bonding is not as impressive, nor did he surpass Rhaenyra, who claimed Syrax at 7. Just saying).

He has a history where his mother teaches him and his siblings to see Rhaenyra as unfit because she has extramarital/maybe premarital sex with unassigned men and gave birth to illegitimate children. The V boys, in Alicent’s eyes, don’t deserve to live or inherit the throne because of what the Faith says about bastards and because they are in the way of her own hous, herown, and her children’s power. Bastards are socially stigmatized and unfavorable because they are believed to be inherently untrustworthy and evil (Faith of the Seven). 

By having bastards, Rhaenyra acts “unwomanly” and against the standards set for her gender–how can she be a good ruler?! 

To him, Rhaenyra is a whore and an inferior person, her sons lesser than himself because their bio parents weren’t married (rumored but we know who the daddy is, not that it matters), and duty and custom goes above everything else, as Alicent teaches him.

3)

So it is Aemond’s duty to make sure that Aegon gets the throne, and for that to happen, Rhaenyra needs to go. Preferably violently. Alicent and Otto both emphasized this to him and Aegon practically since birth, and he would have grown up with this being understood as his main and single purpose. Daemon is what he sees as the obstacle to that goal.

However, Daemon supported more out of love and regard for what he believes would maintain his family's lives and power than duty and to prove his own male privilege. But Aemond sees in Daemon a competitor and his only worthy rival because of those similarities I just listed under “Both” as well as being the person who supports the enemy of the Greens (maybe not the Visenya bit...I doubt Aemond ever seriously thought about how they share a piece of her or her beyond the idea that she was a “witch”, even though he rode her dragon and they both have a strong hand in usurping a rightful heir [Maegor vs Aegon the Uncrowned]).

And with Aemond, perhaps following duty and acting out his role, like Daemon, is a way for him to claim some sort of love from his family, but as @hamliet says, I think love is a transaction for the Hightowers and reinforced that lack in Aemond, creating a cycle of dependency and focus on gaining power through his privilege.

EDIT #1 (inspired by mononijikayu's reblog HERE):

Daemon grew up knowing Alysanne was a huge part of making policies and supporting Jaehaerys' rule; his mother, Alyssa, was a Targ woman known for her actively practicing agency, and his father Baelon never married again after her, preferring to keep the memory of her close and continue to make sure she lived on; and he grew around Rhaenys since they were both children.

Part of his deal with Rhea Royce, therefore, was that he disliked that she was totally emotionally incompatible with him (his own parents were Dragonriders and we as people/humans can and often try to find partners that match the arrangement our *healthy* parents had...if he wants to marry in the traditional Targ way [we remember that Westerosi lords are allowed and did marry first cousins], it is not discriminatory as much as it is almost typical of a nobleman to want to marry within traditions...there is no real indication that he hated Rhea's entire person just because of her looks in the book and after inspecting the context but it certainly was his excuse).

[atopvisenyashill]

An AU for you. Aemon, father of Rhaenys, doesn't die but disappears. Jaehaerys goes ahead and disinheirits Rhaenys. Aemon comes back and isn't a happy camper. Thoughts?

It's definitely interesting. In one of my discussions of Jaehaerys and Rhaenys, it was pointed out that it seems Jaehaerys takes everyone - likely including Baelon - completely by surprise, likely on purpose. It fits with the timeline established here; Aemon and Corlys are off in Tarth so Rhaenys is alone at home and pregnant with no one to support her claim besides herself, Jocelyn, and Alysanne and Jaehaerys doesn't have to listen to any of them. Then you have Baelon who may or may not have been suffering an intense amount of grief from the loss of Aemon (and honestly, probably Alyssa as well - it's been eight years but I can't imagine spending eight years grieving and raising your kids only for your brother to die in a freak accident and suddenly you're crown prince is easy to deal with, may even bring some old grief bubbling back up). It's even possible that Baelon wanted to say no but felt he had no choice because Jaehaerys did this whole ceremony in public right as Baelon was getting back from Tarth. And of course, we don't know how Aemon was talking about Rhaenys - she's named after a conqueror, Aemon and Jocelyn never have any other children (it's not even mentioned that they had miscarriages, they just straight up stop at Rhaenys while Alyssa is popping out sons left and right), Alysanne refers to Rhaenys as the future queen. It's possible Aemon argued with Jaehaerys over Rhaenys and didn't tell Rhaenys (wanting to protect her from the fact that her grandfather is an asshole, perhaps) or that it was well known that Aemon and Jaehaerys fought over succession but the gossip was purposefully suppressed and left out of F&B by gyldayn.

What's extra interesting about this is that there's no other example of what the hell you even do in this situation in ASOIAF. Aegon II is born after Rhaenyra is named but Viserys purposefully snubs Aegon because he doesn't like his younger kids. Meanwhile Viserys II is the younger sibling of Aegon II so that doesn't disrupt anything. The closest example we have is actually a future plot point in the books aka whatever the hell is going to happen with the succession in Winterfell, because Jon, Sansa, and maybe Arya and Rickon are getting there before Bran (and even then, you don't have that added issue of, idk, Jon maliciously usurps Bran because he believes a disabled person can't rule, and also usurped like four other disabled people earlier for the same reason so we know it's a pattern of his). So what do you do when the older, former crown prince shows up not just alive and well but incredibly pissed off that his daughter was passed over?

We don't have a lot of Aemon's personality in the books, just little hints here and there. He's known to be cautious but curious. He's incredibly close to Baelon and Alyssa, seems to have been rather in love with Jocelyn. He's known to have been obedient and worked as master of laws. He claimed Caraxes when he was 17, after he's married and named crown prince officially, and he and jocelyn have their first child when he's nineteen years old and jocelyn is a whopping 20 years old (very old considering Alysanne is like 15 when she first gets pregnant and more than one Targaryen girl is like 13). He is well loved by the smallfolk, as much as Baelon the Brave is. And what works in his favor is that Jaehaerys clearly loved and adored his two oldest sons and was devastated by their loss. So when Aemon shows up again, I think it's more likely Jaehaerys is forced to take him seriously. We have the Rogar/Alyssa situation as evidence for this - Jaehaerys clearly values the opinions, input, and intelligence of men over women, even the women of his own family, even the women that support him over those men.

What I think is likely here is that

Baelon backs whatever it is Aemon wants -> I certainly have my suspicions over the type of person Baelon is, but a younger brother cannot usurp his older brother simply because he doesn't like his vibes. Maegor never manages to usurp Aenys after all; it took Aenys' death and Aegon the Uncrowned being under siege at Crakehall for Maegor to get the opportunity to acclaim himself King (and I think it's crucial here that Maegor is Visenya's first born if not Aegon's). Especially given that Aemon isn't all that old; it just seems likely Baelon will agree out of guilt and grief to what Aemon wants out of the succession.

Aemon decides to build an actual case for Rhaenys to inherit and publicly goes against his father -> We know he's cautious, curious, loves his family, and worked as master of laws rather than Hand which makes me think he had a more bookish bent than Baelon. I think this means that Aemon shows up, finds out what's happened, and goes for the formal, logistical route of building a legal case as to why Rhaenys wil remain his successor and eventually become Queen of Westeros. I think it's even likely he'll see this legal route as more respectful of his father too.

Aemon has to shore up alliances for Rhaenys/Laena/Laenor -> In canon, we know Rhaenys gets the Velaryons, the Celtigars, the Manderlys, the Dustins, the Baratheons, and the Starks on her side. If he can get to Matthos Tyrell and Grover Tully, not only can he cancel out the Peakes being shitty in the Reach, he can completely claim the Riverlands, and all he needs to do is stall a few more years so Jeyne Arryn becomes Lady of the Vale and then he's got her on lock too. I think he's got way more of a chance of gaining support than Corlys and Rhaenys do on their own.

The Second Quarrel Gets Ten Times More Quarrelsome -> Listen, all Alysanne ever does is just fuck off to Dragonstone, she never actually attempts to fight Jaehaerys over anything. But if Aemon comes back and goes "mom was right what the fuck is your problem", well well well suddenly Alysanne has a son with actual political power (unlike Aly, whose ruling power was completely stolen from her by Jaehaerys prior to this). Maybe Aemon decides to publicly break from his father for real and sets up shop at Dragonstone or maybe he calls Alysanne back to KL so she can be a menace in front of Jaehaerys' face, but either way, Jaehaerys can't just send Maegelle to gaslight Alysanne into coming home this time because Alysanne has someone who matters (a man) on her side.

Daemon Starts Acting Like Daemon -> I think he starts going off the shits earlier because now it's his own father attempting to push him further down in the succession by handing over the crown to Aemon and Rhaenys. We know Viserys and Daemon idolized their parents but I think his entire character shows us that just because he loves someone doesn't mean he's above throwing a violent temper tantrum.

Viserys might not marry Aemma -> PERSONALLY, if I'm Aemon and I come back home and Jaehaerys has named Baelon crown prince, which makes Viserys second in line, and then Viserys is trying to marry a Targaryen-Great House daughter, I would stop that shit so fast it would give Caraxes motion sickness. And I'm not talking like some Viserra esque "last ditch effort" I'm talking I'm picking fights with every tom dick and stanley that refers to Aemma as Viserys' betrothed, I'm calling in every favor I have to stop this wedding, I'm threatening Rodrik Arryn's sons that if they hand Aemma over I'll use Caraxes to burn the Vale fleet to the fucking ground. If he doesn't straight up start a minor war over this match, he's an even bigger idiot than his mother AND ALL THREE VISERYS KINGS COMBINED.

I will admit given my general "fuck this dude i wish maegor had barbecued him" stance on jaehaerys, i would not call myself The Jaehaerys Understander so I'm kind of...unsure of how he would react? The thing about Jaehaerys is that the only people who push back on his flaws are women (Rhaena, Alyssa V., Saera, Alysanne) and not only does he not have to listen to them because he's king, he can also punish them by completely stealing away any power they have so that he never has to even hear them bitch at him again (and that's exactly what he does by refusing to give Rhaena a home of her own and usurping her, by refusing to apologize to his mother and then forcing her to reconcile with a man who is going to murder her with his dick, making a circus out of traumatizing and sexually humiliating Saera, and then continuously abusing and gaslighting Alysanne throughout the entirety of their marriage btwww!!!!). Jaehaerys can't just disinherit a living Aemon the way he can Saera or banish Aemon to be the castellan of some old haunted castle the way he does Rhaena; he simply has to engage with this issue.

And the thing is - if he figures it's more of a headache to fight publicly with Aemon than just reinstate Aemon as Crown Prince (or, idk make Aemon Baelon's heir so that the line of succession reverts back to Aemon?? idk how this shit works i don't care about the uber rich and their fake rules), what is this man supposed to do when he dies and Aemon goes "anyway Rhaenys is crown princess of dragonstone, i'm king now, suck my dick viserys you shitty ass nephew" whomst is gonna stop him, really, short of starting the dance a few decades earlier?

[ride-thedragon]

Aemond claiming Vhagar gets a little more layered when you realise that her and Caraxes are the only dragons those girls have known properly when it comes to dragon bonds. Like Baela has moondancer, but Rhaena specifically is being ignored by her father for the most part because if she didn't hatch a dragon egg, that means she could claim a dragon which would mean going back to Westeros.

Which is something he's clearly avoiding. Laena has to comfort her saying there are many ways to claim a dragon because Rhaena thinks they'll abandon her for not having one.

So when the dragon her mother has had her entire life is 'stolen', the exact meaning is that that was her mother's dragon, she doesn't have the understanding that Aemond does of going to the dragonpit and looking for dragons to claim.

To her, Vhagar was a family dragon, her family specifically, and the best chance she would have to claim one like her mom said.

Again, her dad ignores her and makes it seem like there's some hierarchy when it comes to hatching dragons and claiming them and not hatching them at all simply because he doesn't want to go back. He doesn't want to help her claim a dragon in King's Landing because he's a selfish bitch.

Aemond does not see it that way because of a similar inferiority complex, that the world's largest dragon could help absolve, and because he has the understanding that dragons aren't inherited. He is also aware that he's at a funeral and that the reason Vhagar is unclaimed is that Rhaena is mourning her recently dead mother.

I think my point is to blame Daemon and Viserys for being evil little men really and giving their kids or facilitating environments where their kids feel inferior based on their own targeted perceptions based on nothing over dragons and dragon bonds. They are responsible.

[yourlocalnetizen]

Baelon Targaryen had 2 character traits: He was brave and he loved his family.

He would be so disappointed in the way Viserys and Daemon treated (most) of their children.

Dead Viserys: Hello father! Are you proud of me?

Dead Baelon: Am I proud of you? Tell me Viserys, should I be proud of you for putting your wife to death? Should I be proud of you for letting my first granddaughter have bastards and be known as a whore as a result? Should I be proud of you for marrying a teenage girl you didn't love? Should I be proud of you for neglecting 4 of your children? Should I be proud of you for doing NOTHING to comfort your OWN child when he was mutilated by your bastard grandson? Would you have liked it if Daemon had cut out your eye and I supported his actions?

Dead Baelon: Not to mention, your children and grandchildren are killing each other already due to problems you created. If I knew this would happen, I would have fell at my father's feet to make Rhaenys heir over you.

[hordebreaker]

"The days are long, but Aegon came quickly and without fuss"

[blackcat419]

I’m a real blogger I got my first hate comment 🥹

This is from my post about Jaehera’s death and her deserving better.

I’ll admit where I’m wrong, the dance isn’t based entirely off the war of the roses but more about Empress Matilda/Maude and her cousin Stephen of Blois during the time called the Anarchy. This war is actually about sexism keeping a woman off the throne in favor of her male family member and ends with her son inheriting the throne as her cousin’s heir. The similarities are Matilda’s young brother dying young and her father naming her heir with the lords swearing to follow her. But unlike Viserys, her father doesn’t remarry and cause an entire succession crisis. The war of the roses influence comes from both sides fearing their complete destruction so the other side won’t have claimants threatening their rule later on.

On to the other points of your ‘argument’.

1. Team green is salty that the blacks carry on the targ line.

Nope, I’m anti Targaryens as they are terrible rulers who end their own dragons, kingdom, and dynasty through pure stupidity (I know there’s more than them being stupid but shhh).

Rhaenyra’s line gave us Aegon the unworthy and the black fire rebellions along with the war of the 9 penny kings which did way more danage to the kingdom than any other conflict. You also get Aerys the mad king, Daeron the young dragon who gets himself killed cause he thought he could beat the dornish, Baelon the blessed a man so chaste he literally locks his sisters up so he won’t fuck them, and Rhaegar a man so obsessed with prophecy he runs away with a teenager and leaves his wife and children to be viciously murdered.

2. You don’t hate Jaehera, you just make fun of her for how we react.

What the fuck kind of reasoning is that? You make fun of a kids death cause people care?? Wow. Just wow.

3. A family continues a dynasty so there for they’re right.

I guess Tywin is the greatest of all time cause his grandkids get to be kings without any Baratheon blood.

Also that means that Vaemond was right cause his Granddaughter got to be queen.

4. Complain to George.

Nah the old man has enough distractions and doesn’t need to be bothered with this.

5. My three strong boys are the reeaaaly innocents.

Hah. Jace and Luke are not innocent. Luke cut out Aemonds eye and Jace was a big part of the war effort.

Jeoffrey, Jaehearys, and Maelor are completely innocent. Jeoffrey was killed by his mom’s dragon, Jaehearys was killed by Daemon’s assassins, and Maelor was killed on Rhaenyra’s orders.

So anyways hope we learned a valuable lesson on fuck around and find out. See y’all next time!