#arguments for god

[religion-is-a-mental-illness]

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Q: What are the three most compelling arguments for the existence of gods - concise answer, name it if it has a formal name. And what are the most straightforward refutations of these arguments - concise answer.

Grok: Arguments for the Existence of Gods:

1. Cosmological Argument:

Description: The argument posits that everything that exists has a cause, and there must be a first cause or "uncaused cause" which is God.

Refutation: The universe might be eternal, negating the need for a first cause, or the cause could be an impersonal force rather than a personal deity.

2. Teleological Argument (or Design Argument):

Description: The complexity and apparent design of the universe suggest a designer, akin to how a watch implies a watchmaker.

Refutation: Complex structures can emerge from natural processes (evolution by natural selection), and the universe might not be precisely "designed" for life, considering most of the cosmos is hostile to it.

3. Ontological Argument:

Description: Proposed by Anselm, it argues that God is the greatest conceivable being; existence in reality is greater than existence in the mind alone, hence God must exist.

Refutation: Existence isn't necessarily a property that can be predicated in this manner; the argument might commit the fallacy of assuming that because something can be thought, it must exist.

Straightforward Refutations:

Cosmological: Challenges the necessity of a personal first cause by suggesting naturalistic explanations like the Big Bang or an eternal universe.

Teleological: Points out that apparent design can result from natural selection and physical laws without a designer.

Ontological: Criticizes the logic by arguing that "existence" isn't a property like "redness" or "largeness" that can be part of a definition.

These arguments and their refutations highlight the ongoing philosophical debate about the existence of deities, showing that each argument has its strengths but also faces significant challenges.

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This is the best they've got.

[gospelborn]

An Unusual Response to the Problem of Evil

Again I saw all the oppressions that are done under the sun. And behold, the tears of the oppressed, and they had no one to comfort them! On the side of their oppressors there was power, and there was no one to comfort them. And I thought the dead who are already dead more fortunate than the living who are still alive. But better than both is he who has not yet been and has not seen the evil…

[dathen]

JONATHAN ARCHIVIST IS NOT STUPID SQUAD I WILL ALWAYS BE WITH YOU

[jingerpi]

Nazi Germany lasted for ~10 years. the US' genocide of indigenous people inspired the Nazis, and we've been at it for ~500 years. 55 MILLION indigenous turtle Islanders were killed by American colonialists. Tell me again why we're arguing over whether or not these bourgeois politicians are 99% Hitler? This country is far worse than the Nazis were even remotely capable of. There are nearly 1.8 MILLION people in Slavery in the United States right now. This country is cartoon levels of evil, and beyond that! it's beyond parody! it's worse than you can possibly imagine. and that's just two examples over the 500 years they've been at this, and they only domestically! Do you have any idea what the ruling class has done in other countries? the war and famine they've intentionally induced from profits? The millions they've bombed? The only country to ever use nuclear bombs! and it was on civilians!

So yes, of course we cry out death to [US]America. Do you seriously not understand how deeply deeply evil this country is? Again:

Death to the USA

[juliaboudewijn]

Does Aaric ever use his signet to check what the weather will be like that day?

Like:

"Right, I'll have to wear to jacket. Ridoc is going to make it snow inside again."

Or:

"Oh for fucks sake, Riorson is returning today. Better stay indoors, I guess."

[vaguely-concerned]

My two cents on how much of Mind!Varric is Rook’s mind trying to fill the blank space and how much is Solas actively talking through a convenient blood magic paper doll of the mind: I think it's a mix of both, a truly collaborative psychosocial horrorshow if you would, but waaaay more towards the second. It feels too directed and tactical at times to be anything else. Rook's mind is willing to go along with the denial phase as far as it can fucking carry them to not have to face the grief and regret and does its part in papering over details that don’t make any sense, the way brains will strive to create coherent meaning even out of deeply confusing input, but to my understanding it's a collaborateur in how that plays out, not the instigator or control center. Solas is using it as a path to agency and to gather insight into Rook as a person unguarded as he can't count on in his own guise. (That stoic option that leads to him being like 'oh I see you're cautiously denying me access to your inner life. well. at least you still have Varric to talk to. y'know as an outlet :)'. You absolute BITCH Solas! That alone convinced me that he HAS to have an active hand in it on some level.)

My guess is that it takes considerable effort on Solas’ part to make Mind!Varric do anything more involved or complicated than seeming to sit up in bed and give casual commentary, and that’s why he keeps having eerie five minute shallow pep talks with you before he announces he conveniently needs a nap aaanyway good luck kid you got this haha. When he’s just spouting NPC lines from his bedrest, I’m ready to believe that could be Rook’s mind being allowed to improv lines for him more freely because it’s less about Solas trying to get something out of them or working an angle and more ‘Still here! Still totally alive and fine and the mentor figure you know and love and trust :) don’t even worry about it! Thankfully there is no war in Ba Sing Sei, as we all know’ upkeep work lol. Rook’s mind is allowed to set the tone of Varric, the outlines, but not always the content. 

AND, on a (beautifully fucked up) character psychology level, I feel like Solas is indulging in actually getting to be the good supportive mentor figure to Rook with one hand to assuage the guilt he feels about what he's done -- and what he's going to do -- to them with the other. Same internal logic as he uses in Trespasser about the Qun. ‘Almost everyone is going to die from the course of action I’m doggedly pursuing eventually. But at least I can make their last years happier and freer and kinder than they would have been otherwise. and that kind of makes up for it right. a little bit. doesn't it. doesn't that make it better at least. I need that to make it better)'. Did I really take your beloved mentor and friend from you if you don’t know yet that I did? Some philosophers would argue not really! So it’s probably almost ok actually. Isn’t it even a little noble that I’m taking all this grief and guilt on myself and shielding you for now. With undertones that I’m not sure he would realize himself (and might be mortified by if he did) that he is so incredibly lonely, and even a dishonest and indirect emotional connection is more than nothing when you’re that desperate. In this setup he gets idk. Both the control he craves so incredibly badly in relationships and over himself, and the scraps, the fading afterimages, of intimacy and warmth and companionship, even second hand. The one thing Solas and Rook agree on deep deep down is that they really wish Varric weren't gone. They're handshake memeing this in the saddest and most creepy way possible.

I think an important element too is that Solas needs Rook and their team to *succeed* —  up to a certain point. He needs someone to hold the two other elven mean girls off until he can get out of here. Ideally, in a perfect world, even do all the hard work of killing them so he can swoop in at the end and do his thing when both sides are exhausted and out of resources to stop him, and then Bob’s your uncle! Same logic as he was using with Corypheus, and after that worked out so well, too! King of choosing to never learn from a single solitary mistake he’s ever made even though i fully believe he could have the capacity to Fen’Harel <3 The underlying idea isn’t flawed, you see, it was just unforeseen circumstances getting in the way. This time for sure it’ll all work out the way I cleverly imagined it in my head beforehand. Cue By Talos this can’t be happening etc. in the form of a statue almost crushing him like a bug. 

So he's providing guidance and forging Rook into a leader from two angles: one Rook might not trust, and one they probably will. Shaping them into what he needs slowly and carefully. He’s helping you hone your team into their most effective state, as he might have done with his own agents back in the day, setting up his chess pieces even if he has to squint through two glimpsed realities to do it haha. Pincer maneuver of an insidious stealth mentor you never asked for. Also… at one point mind Varric gives you a whole little monologue about how Solas' problem is that he’s always seen his interpersonal connections as flaws and see where it’s landed him, all alone and the worst part? it hasn’t even worked. it’s all been for nothing he’s back where he began with nothing to show for it but his mistakes. Like...that has such strong 'uh okay happy to play your therapist from two rooms away here what the fuck kind of traumadump is this' energy to me, I’m not sure Rook like. Thinks that much about Solas as a private person. So much of Solas' self-loathing and futile insights into his own flaws seem to shine through in Mind!Varric's dialogue all the time — I just can't believe that there's no guiding hand behind it as it were. 

Most of all. I feel like people underestimate the degree to which Solas is incredibly funny. As in, he has a very consistent and recognizable sense of humour. It’s one of my very favourite things about him. We must remember — it is crucial that we always keep in mind — Orlesian accent and wig Solas from May The Dread Wolf Take You (my beloved, the explanation for why I love this dude even with the. All of the everything else. No one does it quite like him). He is not at all above doing things or adding little flourishes for his own obscure amusement, in fact that seems to me to be one of his most consistent traits. The Randy Dowager Quarterly comment Varric has? The ‘Maybe this is the Dread Wolf’s revenge. Forcing us to house sit for him’ thing? To Me this is 100% Solas amusing himself in his boring Fade jail surrounded by the screaming hellscape of all his regrets. Source: it came to me as divine revelation through pure vibes trust me bro 

If nothing else I find it much more narratively interesting personally if the connection between Rook and Solas really is that defenselessly intimate and entwined (and so unbalanced!), and the sense of violation and invasion and betrayal afterwards consequently all the more nauseatingly intense. Even if you kept him at arm’s length in the open, he’s been under your skin the whole time, looking around, gathering what he needs to destroy you, wearing the face of a friend. Regretfully, probably, but choosing to do it every step of the way anyway. (Sound familiar, Inquisitor? Solas doesn’t have that many tricks when you actually look at it, he keeps returning to old tried and true ones like a dog with a bone haha.) Maybe he even genuinely meant some of it as mercy, which only makes it so much worse. It makes his sin against his own core principles of autonomy and the freedom of all beings in mind, spirit and body so much more juicily grave if it’s something he pursues actively and consistently, rather than it half-falling into his lap as a happy accident mainly orchestrated by Rook’s own subconscious. Solas, too, is at his very lowest point, the closest to giving in and becoming his own antithesis fully that he’s ever been, and it makes the choice of whether you still reach out your hand to him one last time or not all the more impactful and difficult.

[meloartist]

"i simply do not see it. i am looking away"

[mayra-quijotescx]

Glossing Joss' final moments as "an argument with a neighbor" is also a form of violence considering what actually happened, per his grieving husband's public testimony, is that when they returned to the site where Joss' family home was torched to the ground after two years of threats from neighbors, they found the skull and harness of the dog they lost in that fire set up on display for them, overwhelming the two with grief, and then if that wasn't enough Joss got to spend his final seconds in this life shoving his husband out of his murderer's line of fire. Thinking, while standing in the literal ashes of everything else hate took from him, that he was going to have to watch his husband be murdered too.

[sha-brytols]

the circle's laws on marriage is so awesome btw. apostates can't legally marry. mages can't marry each other in 90% of circles. but a mage can theoretically marry a non-mage outsider (logically unsustainable given that 90% of mages cannot leave the circle and non-chantry civilians can't enter a circle and all communication between the circle and outside is heavily monitored) so mages do have marriage rights! hurray! ^_^

[adhdevankinard]

Evan “you wouldn't mean to, you wouldn't plan for it, but you’d end up breaking my heart” Buckley meet Tommy “self-fulfilling prophecy” Kinard

[protagaster]

Ctimene: So, what's it like being engaged to Penelope?

Odysseus: Once I asked her for a glass of water while she was angry at me, and she brought me a glass full of ice and said "wait".

Ctimene: ...

Odysseus: Gods, I love her.

[the-bulletproof-heart]

I'm Jedi Critical until the day I die, but the one thing I can fully agree with the Jedi defenders on is that Mace Windu really got screwed over by both the movies and the fandom. He wasn't even that mean to Anakin compared to someone like Yoda, who was a lot harsher to Anakin imo. All of Windu's concerns about Anakin are justified. He's skeptical about Anakin being the Chosen One because there is absolutely no evidence for that other than Anakin being more powerful than the average Jedi. I honestly think Windu was looking out for Anakin in his own way. He's basically saying it's not smart to put all the Jedi's eggs in one "chosen one" basket, which is true. If more people had treated Anakin like a normal Jedi the way Mace does, he wouldn't have been under so much pressure. And I don't think it's "mean" at all to say that a 23 year old is not emotionally mature enough to be a master. It's kind of true, especially based on Anakin's actions.

Like, I think the Jedi screwed Anakin over in a number of ways, but I don't get why the fandom targets Mace specifically? I honestly think he was trying to do the best thing for Anakin. And I like to think that they were genuinely friendly with each other. They almost died together in CW. That's gotta be a pretty big bonding experience.

[danielnelsen]

while i get where this comes from and it’s true to an extent, i reeeaaaally don’t like how people try to explain “trans men don’t [necessarily] have male privilege” with things like “some trans men don’t pass”.

like sure that’s the most obvious example (someone who is seen as a woman won’t have the privilege that comes with being seen a man) but you’re still acting like being a passing trans man is just a free opt-in to male privilege which is………kinda the issue.

[lilislegacy]

https://www.tumblr.com/fate-of-the-envious/748795886289780736/concerning-snippets-from-pjo-chalice-of-the-gods?source=share

So, I'm neutral on Percabeth, but this post kind of has a point.

Do you have any counter arguments for these points? I want to keep an open mind and you seem like you'd have some good arguments.

Anon, thank you for the ask. I typically don’t respond to requests that want me to talk about someone else’s post, but I have some serious points to make here and I mean business. I am not trying to start anything or call OP out; I am just stating my own personal interpretation of this scene, along with other quotes that I will inform you all of, and the possible issues brought up. Nobody go attack OP. They have a right to believe what they believe and to post what they want.

For those who don’t click the link (though I think you should), the original poster is discussing the scene in Chalice of the Gods where Annabeth pushes Percy off the cliff into the water. The post basically says that Annabeth endangered him by not telling him what was going to happen, pushed him into dirty, unsafe water, and is responsible for him getting harmed and bloodied up. Then they say that this is proof that Percabeth is an unhealthy relationship.

So, I have two major thoughts on this post, and one major problem with it.

My first thought: I think it goes back to the same thing that the judo flip does. Was it the best way to do things? No. But was she abusing him? No.

I feel like people keep trying to act as if Percy and Annabeth are regular human beings. They are not. Can we as a fandom PLEASE stop acting like they have similar experiences, expectations, and physical limitations as regular people? As if they don't almost die on a consistent basis? As if danger isn't part of their everyday life?

The words “push him off a cliff” are alarming to us because we imagine a giant mountainside and immediate death. But that was far from the case here. She pushed him off a little hillside ledge into some water. Could a regular human get hurt from that? Sure. But again: they are NOT human. They are half-god. They are hybrids—humanoids, even. They don't get hurt or feel pain like we do. How many freaking times have they been slammed into concrete walls by giants? Pounced on by huge mythical creatures? Slashed, stabbed, and wounded by vicious monsters? Stuff that would immediately kill any one of us? A LOT. And each time, they are fine.

He is not going to get hurt like we would, and since she's the same way, she knows that.

My second thought, which I cannot stress enough:

She pushed him... into WATER. You know, his godly element—the thing that, when he's in it, puts him at his most powerful state; the same thing that heals any injuries he has; the thing over which he has total control and in which he spends most of his time.

By pushing him into the water, Annabeth put him in the safest possible scenario. Are people not reading the scene? The only way Percy was going to complete the quest (and it had to be him who did it) AND beat the river god was by being in the water. It gives him control over the situation.

Now for my major problem: The original post gives false information and takes everything out of context.

If you actually read the book, you’ll see that Annabeth KNEW he would be able to breathe because the water was not dirty where she pushed him in. In fact, right before he goes in, Percy states that the water below was “clear as glass, free of snakes, and just begging to be canonballed into” (pg. 126). Need I say more? (Don’t worry, I’m about to.)

THEN he says, “On the downside, it was ringed by sheer cliffs, with no obvious way down unless I wanted to ride the rapids downriver through Serpent Town.” So he knew he needed to jump in because that was the safest way for him to get there.

THEN Annabeth suggests, “You could jump in with the staff,” and Percy quite literally says, “Sure,” so now Annabeth knows he’s willing to jump down into it. But then Percy follows with, “The problem is climbing back up.”

However, Annabeth, ever so prepared, pulls out a rope. So Percy does have a safe way back up. She’s got him.

Then Percy remembers the river god and suggests that they take some time and make a plan, but then, from afar, they hear Grover start playing music, which means the deadly snakes were now all after Grover. Percy then goes, “The clock has started. Grover is in trouble.” And Annabeth says, “Times up.” That’s when she pushes him over.

He was going to jump in no matter what. That WAS planned. They discussed it. They were going to discuss a plan for what would happen if the river god showed up, but since their best friend was now in danger and both of their priorities were to protect him, they did not have time to make a plan. So Annabeth put the plan in action KNOWING that he would be okay in the water.

The only reason he got hurt—AFTER he landed safely and completely unharmed in the water—was because the river god attacked him, which was going to happen regardless when he tried to mess with the river. And then guess what happens IMMEDIATELY after the river god hurts him? The water—that Annabeth pushed him into, mind you—HEALED him. Just like it always has. Just like Annabeth knew it would if something were to happen.

The original post did not give half the information. It made it seem like Percy had no idea what was going to happen and that they hadn’t discussed it at all. The original post tells everyone that the water was filthy and that Annabeth didn’t know if he could breathe in it. The original post tells everyone that Percy was harmed BECAUSE of the jump. The original post tells everyone that it’s Annabeth’s fault that the river god harmed Percy—none of which are the case at all. The post is just a bunch of false statements coupled with out-of-context screenshots designed to manipulate people into feeling like they have to hate Annabeth Chase. It’s fine to not like Percabeth, but this post manipulates both the book and the viewers. Now, it’s fine to post opinions, but THIS aspect is not okay.

Now, could Annabeth have said, “Hurry! Jump!!”? Yes, she could have. That would have been the more gentle thing to do. But this was clearly a moment where a girlfriend thought it would be funny to push her boyfriend into some water—that he was about to dive into—instead of him jumping. No one here has ever pushed someone into a pool or off a diving board? Huh? I think it shows that their relationship is safe and comfortable enough that they can do things like that without it being a big deal. I feel like in most demigod relationships, this would not be seen as an issue. The only reason it seems to be on a larger scale here is because it's from a significant height, which again I'll remind you: doesn't get hurt easily + gets healed and powered by water = no injury happening. Annabeth also knew that Percy was comfortable jumping down into the water. It seems like a harmless situation to me. She made the decision knowing full well that he would be okay and safe because the water protects him. And all the negative and scary things that happened afterward were because the river god didn't want Percy to mess with the river. But Percy needed to mess with the river. Annabeth pushing him in did not cause that conflict.

Also, people are giving Percy no credit??? Why are we acting like he’s a weak little baby? This is Perseus Jackson, two-time Hero of Olympus, son of the brutal sea god. This guy is tough as nails, and Annabeth knows that and has full confidence in his abilities. People get mad when she is all soft and gentle with him because she’s “babying him,” but then when she treats him like an equal, capable demigod, they get mad because “she’s abusing him.” After she pushes him, Percy literally says that by doing it, Annabeth had “full confidence in [his] abilities” (pg. 128). She trusted that he could handle it because they are demigods and they HAVE to be able to handle things like this. She has seen him go through far, far worse than landing in some clean water and facing a minor god. She believes in him.

And isn't it somewhere around this time that Percy teaches Magnus, Annabeth's cousin, how to survive spontaneous deep plunges into icy cold water? Percy is such an expert on this that he teaches her cousin how to do it. Additionally, Percy and Annabeth quite literally fell into Tartarus—a slightly further drop than this—together, and survived because at the last minute they hit water, which protected Percy. And physically, he was fine then too. Plunging into water from heights is not a new experience for this dude. In fact, he's on the diving team at school—a little different, since that's coordinated, but still—the guy is very used to hitting water from heights. It's quite literally a daily thing for him. The only thing that shocked him here was the temperature of the water. And, mind you, this man has been to the bottom of the ocean. He recovered very quickly. Do people really think Annabeth pushed him in without the complete and utter certainty that he would be completely fine? I cannot stress how casual this is for him.

I would also like to add that Percy was in no way actually upset at her. A tad annoyed? Maybe, if you want to stretch things even more. But then, like, 2 seconds later after the river events, he's saying how cute she is, saying he loves her, kissing her, and they are laughing together. He is fine. They are fine. And if the roles were reversed and Annabeth was a daughter of the sea god and Percy affectionately pushed her off a ledge into some water, it still wouldn't be concerning.

I really do appreciate people like OP here wanting to call out harmful relationships in fiction, and I am never afraid to criticize Rick Riordan. I myself have said that I don't like how Annabeth acted in Wrath of the Triple Goddess (though I hold that against Rick, not Annabeth, since Rick openly admits he's writing them differently now to mirror the TV show versions). But Percy and Annabeth have consistently demonstrated themselves as mature, responsible, and kind human beings who love and support each other and make each other feel very safe and valued. Everyone is welcome to have their opinions and post whatever, but I really do think we should channel these types of discussions towards far more deserving issues, especially those that actually have factual reasoning behind them rather than false claims.

[shimaen]

[jcollinswrites]

Late to the party but why are ppl acting like Narmer's consort didn't start the violence by slapping him? Made me uncomfortable to read those comments, sounded too close to victim blaming.

It's disturbing how long it took for someone to finally point this out.