#as if lestat didn't try to kill claudia anyway...

[cypheragent]

can I be honest I think it's kind of crazy how much lestans go on and on about lestat's trauma because I honestly think louis, claudia AND armand all had it worse. sorry.

[winepresswrath]

what louis did to lestat and what louis did to armand are connected and that's important to the story but also. it is simply not the same. nothing louis did excuses armand's behaviour, that's not how anything works, but he did not "cross a line" or "poke at armand," he weaponized armand's history of abuse to belittle and demean him. nothing armand said to louis came close- the equivalent would have been "oooh, i'm such a stupid bitch that my husband can beat me half to death and i'll keep crawling back for more even when it endangers my daughter!" it's retraumatizing and deeply destabilizing to hear that shit from your partner. and in response armand should have been like "well this man sucks when he's high and he's high all the time, so i'm bouncing" but if he'd done that we wouldn't have a story, would we?

edit: i've come back to give armand credit for "claudia didn't love you like we did/do. ps. u used her to distract from your own hurt feelings" that shit does hit in a similar way. however "the ways someone hurt you have left you contemptible and weak. they scrawled 'dirty and annoying' all over your soul in red ink and it's never coming off" is just outstanding work. timeless

[cbrownjc]

Hi!! I’m wondering if you know where in the book(s) do Louistat reunited and if there are books/chapters of books that focus on their interactions and dynamics after they reunited? Thank you!!

Hi,

So, Louis and Lestat officially reunite in the books towards the end of the second book in the series The Vampire Lestat -- in October of 1985, in San Fransisco. The night before Lestat's first (and only) rock concert.

Now, there is a reunion scene between them in Interview with the Vampire but subsequent books in the series, particularly Tale of the Body Thief, have Lestat flat-out saying the reunion scene in that book never happened. So . . . 🤷🏾‍♀️

Anyway, their reunion in the book The Vampire Lestat is actually quite lovely IMO:

I felt the lump come up in my throat. I was trembling. I tried to remember what was important, even in this moment, that I must scan the night for others, must be careful. Danger. But none of that mattered now. I knew. I shut my eyes for a second. It did not help anything, make anything easier. [ . . . ] And I forgot all the stiff surly things I had planned to say and I just took him in my arms. We embraced the way we never had in the past. We held each other the way Gabrielle and I used to do. And then I ran my hands over his hair and his face, just letting myself really see him, as if he belonged to me. And he did the same. Seems we were talking and not talking. True silent voices that didn't have any words. Nodding a little. And I could feel him brimming with affection and a feverish satisfaction that seemed almost as strong as my own. But he was quiet suddenly, and his face became a little drawn. "I thought you were dead and gone, you know," he said. It was barely audible. "How did you find me here?" I asked. "You wanted me to," he answered. Flash of innocent confusion. He gave a slow shrug of the shoulders. Everything he did was magnetizing me just the way it had over a century ago. Fingers so long and delicate, yet hands so strong. "You let me see you and you let me follow you," he said. "You drove up and down Divisadero Street looking for me." "And you were still there?" "The safest place in the world for me," he said. "I never left it. They came looking for me and they didn't find me and then they went away. And now I move among them whenever I want and they don't know me. They never knew what I looked like, really." "And they'd try to destroy you if they knew," I said. "Yes," he answered. "But they've been trying to do that since the Theater of the Vampires and the things that happened there. Of course Interview with the Vampire gave them some new reasons. And they do need reasons to play their little games. They need the impetus, the excitement. They feed upon it like blood." His voice sounded labored for a second. He took a deep breath. Hard to talk about all this. I wanted to put my arms around him again but I didn't. "But at the moment," he said, "I think you are the one that they want to destroy. And they do know what you look like." Little smile. "Everybody knows now what you look like. Monsieur Le Rock Star." He let his smile broaden. But the voice was polite and low as it had always been. And the face suffused with feeling. There had been not the slightest change there yet. Maybe there never would be. I slipped my arm around his shoulder and we walked together away from the lights of the house. We walked past the great gray hulk of the copter and into the dry sunbaked field and towards the hills. I think to be this happy is to be miserable, to feel this much satisfaction is to burn.

That isn't the whole of the reunion scene, just the first main part of it.

After this, Louis and Lestat don't really part in the same way -- at least not for as long as they did after Lestat was "killed" and Louis and Claudia fled to Europe. Louis and Lestat are just kind of on-again, off-again in the books after they reunite again in The Vampire Lestat, but I wouldn't say there are major scenes that focus on them coming back together again while they are in their on-again, off-again phase -- at least as far as the books I've read, which only goes up to Blackwood Farm.

I'm still reading Prince Lestat for the first time right now (up to Chapter 14 so far), but I do know that Prince Lestat is the book where Louis and Lestat come back together and, this time, stay together for good once they do (meaning no more on-again, off-again). @nalyra-dreaming, @virginiaisforvampires, or anyone else who's finished that book please feel free to chime in with the scene of info from that book regarding their reunion if you can or feel up to it 🙂.

As to books or chapters of books that focus on their dynamic after they reunite. . . that isn't really something that can be noted or listed in some general way IMO. Because, quite honestly, none of the books focus on them and their relationship alone after Interview with the Vampire. What you see of their relationship in the books following the first one are just character things and moments that are interwoven into whatever larger plot is going on in each book at the time. Honestly, there are some books in which Louis barely appears at all (such as Memnoch the Devil).

So yeah, quite honestly, the first book is the only one that really focuses on their relationship. After that, their relationship together is just part of the character dynamics going on within other stories and plots. So it would be way too hard to list every single interaction and dynamic they have in each book because of that, sorry.

Anyway, I hope this answers your question. 🙂

[ca-suffit]

I have a kind of dumb disorganized question. Do you think we’ll revisit the reasoning for the San Francisco memory alteration in season 3? I might be just missing something but I don’t think there’s actually an established reason for Armand altering Louis memory? I tend to think we’re all in alignment that Armand made the edit for both Louis and Daniel, (again showcasing how the power dynamics in Loumand are kind of deceptive - Armand is just much more powerful than Louis both socially in the world and as a vampire) but I’m just not sure what the reasoning is?

I saw a kind of interesting post out in the wild proposing that Louis actually did ask Armand to alter that memory and while I think that’s interesting in the abstract, I can’t divorce the race/power dynamics angles that would call into question (delegitimizating what Louis has been through). Which brings me back to, for a number of reasons I do think the intended read is Armand erased the memory from Louis’ mind without his knowledge. But I’m back to the question of why? It kind of seems like Loumand is in the same spot before and after the mind wipe to me, is there another layer here I missed?

I think we'll learn more about it somewhere in the show as it progresses, yes, cuz it's too big of a mystery to leave unanswered.

this is sort of an aside before I get into it, but I keep thinking of the extent of these powers. we don't know a lot about it still. armand seems aware that recollection is possible, bcuz he's not ttly surprised when he sees that daniel and louis have remembered stuff. so I think it's interesting why he chose that moment and not others and I'm still piecing together thoughts about it as a whole.

anyway tho. this is potentially a headcanon as my answer, so remember that bcuz I'm def not trying to say this is "the" answer. I have no idea fr.

armand's "explanation" in 2x6 could be a whole post itself but that's sort of ot so I'm just going with what the "truth" was otherwise for so long. let's look at the phrasing of it.

armand doesn't forget that louis thought daniel was "fascinating." he also didn't forget what louis said it meant for their relationship that he stay alive. if we consider that armand has awareness that memories might partially or fully return, placing himself as responsible for seeing the "fascinating" qualities in daniel first and "saving" him from louis makes him look better than what rly happened. without the actual audio from that time period, neither of them prbly would have remembered the rly "bad" parts. I'm gonna guess armand knows this too as he's shown unwinding tapes (I know they're not *the* tapes but still, the visual is there for a reason....alongside editing claudia's diaries too) and obviously this part of the interview was *not* kept to the og version anyone had access to that he was aware of.

assad said in an interview (sry I forget which one rn) that armand is thrown off when he speaks to louis about turning madeleine. when louis kisses him and then walks away, like he could walk away at any moment from the whole relationship and be fine without it. armand in the show says he'd be "nothing" without louis. I'm not sure when it starts exactly but there is a point where armand puts himself in the position of always knowing what's "best" for louis. it's a subtle manipulation and not what louis was used to from lestat. it gives the illusion of being cared for by someone who loves u instead of being controlled. armand knows that louis thinks he's boring so he has to do something to create a world where he isn't....or at least where louis thinks highly of him for *something.*

I always saw a lot of daniel paralleling jonah in this. both of them live to old age even tho their existence is painful to some of the most powerful vampires who could have killed them in a second. killing either of them would drive the wedge between them (lestat and armand) and louis even further tho, and they both know that. it also won't fix the issue. ya ok so jonah *did* have more of a history with louis before that moment than daniel did but it's still the same thing of "why do u feel this for someone else and not me? what is wrong with *me* that we don't have this?" especially cuz both points of interest are humans compared to vampire partners. lestat prbly kept tabs on jonah his whole life too.

so that's as much as I've had thoughts on this anyway. idk if it helps.

oh also ia and I don't think louis would ask to erase anything either. this is a man who keeps pebbles in his ankles to remember claudia's death. louis is so full of catholic guilt that there's no way that man would ask to forget *anything* that hurts him.

[toriangeli]

I don't get why you guys think Armand would come out looking good in the storyline where he killed Claudia. Saying the iwtv writers "didn't expect audience members to like armand so they made every character dislike him" is such a reach because a character doesn't have to be well liked in order to be well written and also he was never prioritized in the books by either Louis or Lestat.

You misunderstand. My chief complaint is that he doesn't look bad enough. The reason some people think the show "revealed" he was behind Claudia's death all along (rather than being coerced to take part in it) is because it's what they expect from reading the books and interpreting the books that way (when it's not as clear as fandom has made it out to be). It's probable that this just isn't the time for it. The books weren't actually 100% clear on whether the trial was his idea (not even Lestat accuses him of that), but they were very clear how insanely he treated Lestat. I was hoping we'd at least see a glimpse of the same Armand from 2.05 aiming his cruelty at Lestat this time, but it may have to wait for s3. My worry is that they've just softened him and made other characters be mean to him because they want people to feel as sorry for him as they did.

If they did mean him to be the true architect of Claudia's death, they should have given him a motive, because they took away the only one he had--wanting Claudia out of the way so he could have Louis. Claudia was already on her way out before the abduction, and Louis was going to die in the trial.

Now, my pet theory is that Louis was never going to die; Lestat and Armand agreed to save both Louis and Claudia together. However, when the time came, Armand just didn't do his part saving Claudia. But there's no evidence for it. As it stands, nothing points to him wanting anyone to die, even if he didn't intend to save anyone, either.

And no, directing the play doesn't make him the mastermind. It's just a job. The coven took power from him, as confirmed by Louis, and punished him, as confirmed by Assad (for what? idk).

Anyway, it all comes out like he was just kind of wishy-washy and it wasn't his monstrosity that caused the problems, but his weakness. His inability to stand up for Louis in the face of his coven. Louis holds contempt for him because he is weak, not because he is malicious. And Armand should be particularly monstrous because he never had the chance to really be human, despite Marius' intentions.

And it makes me wonder if the writers made that change because they wanted the audience to sympathize with him, and wrote Louis and Daniel targeting his sexual trauma for the same reason. Nobody should need to be unnecessarily mean to Armand to make the audience feel sorry for him. Armand explodes with his trauma, largely as a way of trying to control it. Armand is a giant fucking mess who hurts people because he is hurt, and sometimes because he doesn't know a better way. His violence is, in a strange way, what gives you empathy for him.

And you know when people seemed the most on Armand's side? 2.05. When he was at his most monstrous.

Anyway.

[brsb4hls]

I know iwtv sometimes looks like a regular queer hipster relationship drama, so it's easy to forget it is an actual horror show and the protagonists are all monsters who eat people.

But if you take that into account how can you see Armand as 'the antagonist' or 'the villain' here?

I'm not playing down Louis' background and the trauma of the trial, the monsters in this show still have feelings and the audience is supposed to feel empathy for them.

But why so much more for Louis? Why pit Louis and Armand against each other?

Yes, Armand was willing to let Louis die. But he didn't plan it. The coven pressured him into directing the trial (recently confirmed by Assad) ad he took the easiest route.

Then saw his chance to change course and he lied to Louis about it.

On it's own that seems absolutely horrible.

Well, so is trying to actually murder your partner, like Louis did (I mean that's what he's on trial for, among other things) and yet everyone is cooing over the Loustat relationship.

Their connection is a red thread throughout the books and they have an intriguing dynamic, but it's every bit as toxic as Loumand.

And yet those celebrating the toxic messy Loustat relationship (mainly because it's so messy) are questioning if Armand 'can ever come back from what he did.

And I wonder why that is.

Maybe show Armand is to passive and subby. (Like I wrote before, he is not a master manipulator sadly, he just goes with the flow and lies and omitts when the opportunity presents itself).

Or people don't feel empathy cause he's not as open and mostly wearing a mask of sorts.(if you miss Assads microexpressions that is, he's actually amazing at portraying emotions like that).

I truely don't know.

I still love the character and wished he was more 'aggressive' in the actual sense of the word, taking action instead of just going with things. He is extremely powerfull and hardly showed it.

And the Loumand relationship was miserable for both of them from the start.

Louis actually used it as a fuck you to Lestat. Like 'see this loser? Well, I rather fuck him than you so chew on that', very romantic indeed.

He hallucinated Lestat the entire relationship and only told Armand during the interview.

He fucked and killed 138 boys he pumped full of drugs first. He still hated Armand for his part in Claudia's death (Lestat also had a part in it, just a reminder) and also found him boring and suffocating.

Nothing about that is wholesome in anyway.

Both of them should have broken the thing off multiple times but they clung to it for different reasons.

That's a regular fucked up monster relationship where the monsters are horrible to each other.

And in that context I don't see a villain here.

Maybe we might get there if we explore Armand's torture chamber and experiments (or Lestat's side of the trial, an interview hints Armand might have had more involvement), which I would actually preferr over the passiveness we have now.

But at this point in the show I see no reason to hate Armand, just like I see no reason to hate Lestat or Louis.

(Hating Santiago is very valid tho for reasons).

[nalyra-dreaming]

I've read the posts about Armand's experiment on Claudia, and it has been around 20 years since I read the book, so I have a few questions.

I've read comments that Armand conducted the experiment just because he didn't care about her/wanted to see what happened, but as I recall he did it because he wanted to try to granting her wish to be an adult (I feel like she may have requested it not realizing what he would do to grant her wish). Was there an element of him trying to help her or was it really just being cruel for curiosity's sake?

My other question would be about the timeline and how the experiment could be performed. There's only two places I could see it happening- around the same time as the rat box (which given the damage to her neck involved seems impossible for her to recover enough to talk during the performance), or after Louis is dragged away and it happens right onstage (which would mean Lestat would witness it and that would change the whole 'it was a major secret' thing until TVA). If it happened offstage and then he brought her back to be thrown in the sun, that's just a long time for the audience in the theatre to wait. Anyways, I'm rambling, I think, but thoughts? Thank you.

I think in the show timeline it happens while Louis is being entombed… given the wounds on their feet don’t heal that fast the wounds on head or throat would not have healed either :/

That said, since Claudia talked about “needing a new brain“… I think the show will switch the “head“ to “brain“… which is also easier hidden under the hair 😖… so it might fit after the rat box after all.(*)

As per Armand‘s motivation… I do think it’s a mix with him. A certain (too) innocent curiosity, paired with de-sensitization from all the cruelty he witnessed over centuries if you will, paired with an abstract empathy coming from the wish that someone should have helped him…

He knows if he experiments on her it won’t kill her. The cruelty and pain doesn’t really touch him. The end is the big prize that could free her, and as such he sees it valid to try - and he wants to know if it would work.

It doesn’t, and it reads to me as if he’s ashamed of that failure, maybe even ashamed of offering hope, and therefore makes sure the evidence of it all is destroyed.

It is not stated if Claudia consented. I… given the state of her relationship with the vampires at that point (both book and show) I doubt it.

But Armand… did it from a very complicated place of feeling imho, but ultimately he did it at all because, as he says, couldn’t love her. And all things considered, he wanted to know if it would work.

(*) As per the rat box. If they really put her in there… then what we saw on stage was completely fake. Because there is no way that dress would not have been in shreds and bloody if the rats had found her as Louis said.

Tbh. I want him to misremember that. But that would then be the fitting timeframe for the experiment I guess. 😑

[showmey0urfangs]

eagerly awaiting your thoughts on the finale & season as a whole queen, whenever you might be ready to share them! i watched ep 8 and have just been staring at my ceiling lol.

Hi Anon! Actually, I got to see the finale a few weeks back but I couldn't discuss it until it aired for obvious reasons. I was very curious to see how the rest of the fandom would react to it. As you've probably guessed, I'm not crazy about it, though there are some moments that I really enjoyed.

My main gripe with this episode is that by changing the book plot point and making Lestat the one who saves Louis while Armand was apparently intent on both he and Claudia dying, it creates a massive plot hole where Armand's motivations make even less sense than they did at the end of ep 6 (I talked about this in more details in another ask). Now Armand doesn't kill Claudia because he wants Louis more than anything in the world and he sees Claudia as competition (which she never even was in this version but okay). Now he wants to kill both of them, and he does this because...he's a villain who does villainous things muahaha! Who the fuck knows, tune in next season to find out...maybe

It points to the same sloppy writing that is recurrent throughout this entire season. The writers introduce major deviations from the books—which, great we love that, imo the show does best when it creates its own fresh new storylines, as evidenced by ep 5 and most of present-day Dubai—but then they turn around and still try to shoehorn in the same story beats from the book and it just doesn't work anymore, so the whole thing ends up feeling incoherent and contradictory.

Do I think Armand would have any qualms about killing Louis under different circumstances, absolutely not! My pookie hunts down and dismembers rogue fledglings as a pastime. In fact, the only reason he doesn't obliterate Louis and Claudia to ashes the minute they set foot in Paris is precisely because he falls for Louis and becomes so obsessed with Louis that he would do anything to have him.

If they were gonna change that plot point by removing Loumand's love story entirely then commit all the way and at least give us another plausible motivation for Armand putting on a whole ass fake trial and pretending he could not prevent it™ when his intent was to kill Louis anyway. What was the pretence for if not for Louis' benefit? What was the aim of his big machiavellic plan if it was not to get rid of Claudia and the coven in one fell swoop so that he and Louis could be together? Who the fuck knows, tune in next season to find out...maybe.

I also have a problem with the final twist/reveal. The way the show frames it, it doesn't come down to Louis finding out that Armand had a hand in Claudia's death. He already knew that, though not the full extent of it—because he's a dumb dumb who believed that Armand was oh so helpless next to the fierce vampire Sam. No, what pisses Louis off the most is the reveal that Armand didn't save him at the trial (although Armand still does free him from the coffin even though he's the one who wanted him killed in the first place, go figure).

But you see, Lestat loves Louis the mostest because at least HE saved Louis from the revenge trial...that he planned and rehearsed for months. So ShackLestat, as we're calling him, gets a bit of a rushed impromptu redemption arc with a tender hug and a kiss while Armand is thrown into a concrete wall and sent packing.

The final reveal is not about Claudia, it was never about [her]. The reason Louis resents Lestat in 1949 and pulls his little CW teen drama stunt in Magnus's tower hasn't changed; Lestat still crossed an ocean to rehearse a play that would burn his daughter alive and still stood by as said daughter was burnt to death. Armand is still the POS who sold them out. That hasn't changed much either. The decision of who Louis forgives comes down to who rescued him—which of his two toxic husbands was the better knight in dusty armour that chose him over Claudia. But who tf cares right? Loustat reunion everybody, yay! 🎉

I have so many other discrepancies and inconsistencies I could talk about, but at this point, I've made peace with the choices the show made. It's clear that the strikes had a huge impact on the writing and the overall quality the show might have had in a more ideal scenario. Hopefully, s3 will fare better, especially since RoJo—just like he keeps reminding us in every interview—will be writing about a character that he actually gives a fuck about for a change. 🙃

[i-want-my-iwtv]

I recently read Interview with the Vampire which is such a good ride and since I was already very much expose myself to many spoilers, I knew the trial would happen and all that. But since English was not my first language and though I like the poetic words, I can't seem to understand what exactly they are talking about sometimes 😂. I'm busy often and can't seem to get the time to actually search up things about it so I wanna know more about why exactly would Armand has the need to kill Claudia, I know about how he wanted Louis for himself but I think he's aware that Claudia was everything to Louis so killing her doesn't seem to be the best idea if he truly love and want Louis to be with him. And the second one being why is Lestat so indifferent to Claudia's possible death at the trial, I've seen his quote about Claudia and discussions about how great he love her even after all the killing attempt and that he never blamed her for anything (didn't read the Vampire Lestat yet by the way), so to say the least I was quite shock at how he allowed Claudia to be held by the coven and why is he only advocating for Louis survival, is his love too much greater for him? And can't seem to understand that why would he think Louis would be willing to go back with him without Claudia. I think there are other scenes related to these in the other books but I forgot about it, I hope to find out about it when I get to read more but I'm really curious and can't help myself back. I hope my question makes sense and I wouldn't mind any spoilers, I really wanna know more about it.

Hello! Wow, that's a lot of ask. I'm glad to take a stab at answering tho 😎

But since English was not my first language and though I like the poetic words, I can't seem to understand what exactly they are talking about sometimes 😂

Understandable, I'm always impressed with ppl reading these books and finding the stories and characters captivating even without being able to fully understand the words, that speaks to how well they're written that they transcend complete understanding! It can be poetic at times. The books are translated into a number of other languages, you might want to find it in yours, that might help, even though there are necessarily differences in the translations from the original. She also throws in some French from time to time so be aware of that 😉

I think there are other scenes related to these in the other books but I forgot about it, I hope to find out about it when I get to read more but I'm really curious and can't help myself back.

Yes, there are a few more mentions of it, but mostly just Lestat's perspective from TVL, and there's one scene in The Vampire Armand where he says he did surgery for Claudia after the trial but before she died (we're not sure that actually happened, or he was inventing something to intimidate David at the time!)... ANYWAY other ppl can reblog and comment on this to add more specifics! I'm trying to keep this concise and not spend hours on this answer, which I could do! 😅

why exactly would Armand has the need to kill Claudia, I know about how he wanted Louis for himself but I think he's aware that Claudia was everything to Louis so killing her doesn't seem to be the best idea if he truly love and want Louis to be with him.... And can't seem to understand that why would he think Louis would be willing to go back with him without Claudia.

Yes, Armand was aware that Claudia was everything to Louis! Briefly, Armand wouldn't share Louis with Claudia, as she told Louis that Armand spoke to her with the mind gift that Louis couldn't hear (Forgive the typos here, this is a bad PDF copy of IWTV 😅):

Armand also admitted to Louis that he pushed him into turning Madeleine to replace Louis as Claudia's companion, but Louis still doesn't give Claudia up even after doing that. That's a bigger discussion, whether Armand couldn't wait any longer for that to happen, or he lost control of the Theatre vampires, or Lestat re-entering the story changed Armand's mind about how to separate Louis from Claudia.

Regardless, Armand physically protects Louis from Santiago and warns him a few times that the Theatre vampires might harm Claudia if she doesn't leave soon, and it's unclear whether Armand is ordering them to behave that way to get rid of Claudia, or if Armand would be equally happy with Claudia just leaving Louis, rather than being killed by the Theatre vampires. That's also a bigger discussion for sure, and I could argue both sides.

And the second one being why is Lestat so indifferent to Claudia's possible death at the trial, I've seen his quote about Claudia and discussions about how great he love her even after all the killing attempt and that he never blamed her for anything (didn't read the Vampire Lestat yet by the way), so to say the least I was quite shock at how he allowed Claudia to be held by the coven and why is he only advocating for Louis survival, is his love too much greater for him?

I don't think Lestat is indifferent to Claudia's possible death, but he's wounded and starving, which definitely could have weakened him emotionally, too. In TVL, we get Lestat's point of view just before the trial: he came to Paris to beg Armand for the healing blood to speed up the wounds he suffered (from Claudia and Louis attempting to kill him) and Armand throws him in a cell and feeds him a dead victim, with cold blood (which doesn't hurt vampires, it's just distasteful and not as nearly as nutritious as living victim blood). While begging, Lestat admits to Armand that it was Claudia who damaged him so badly, probably thinking there's no way Armand could have her in his possession! Welp, he's wrong.

Even without that TVL context, I think Lestat was in a position where he knew he was physically weakened and outnumbered, he couldn't take on and fight the whole pack of healthy Theatre vampires AND Armand, so he was trying to use his words to save who he could. That meant choosing Louis OR Claudia 😭 The Theatre vampires were clearly going to kill one of them, if not both. So the best Lestat could do was argue that it was Claudia's fault primarily and try to rescue Louis.

Now why advocate for Louis' survival, is Lestat's love too much greater for Louis over Claudia? I think one's love for their lover is different than for their child, not greater or lesser, a different kind of love. One could say that he could see more of a future with Louis than with Claudia, after all, his relationship with Louis was probably more salvageable than his relationship with Claudia, bc ultimately, she tried to kill him! Her feelings were probably the same, or worse, knowing he had survived. She didn't speak to Lestat during the trial. Louis was advocating to Lestat during the trial, still hopeful Lestat could save them both.

Either way I don't think Lestat chose Louis over Claudia for revenge, because YES, you're correct, Lestat says in Tale of the Body Thief (or TVL, I don't have it with me to check) that he didn't blame Claudia for trying to kill him, and that he might have done the same in her position 😭.

[^X by miss-jose] I have a few more fanart pieces featuring this scene in #the yellow dress tag, if anyone has more, let me know!

I assume that Lestat felt awful after Claudia was killed by the Theatre vampires... he still speaks of her with love in the later books. The very next night, Louis finds Lestat clutching her blood-stained yellow dress, and could some of those blood stains be Lestat's tears, since he's sobbing? I think so! Here's the quote (my emphasis added):

“‘This is madness!… ’ I said, my hands rising suddenly to my temples. 'Where is she! Where is she!’ I looked about me, at their still, passive faces, those inscrutable smiles.'Lestat’ I turned him now, grabbing at the black wool of his lapels: "And then I saw the thing in his hands. I knew what it was. And in an instant I’d ripped it from him and was staring at it, at the fragile silken thing that it was - Claudia’s yellow dress. His hand rose to his lips, his face turned away. And the soft, subdued sobs broke from him as he sat back while I stared at him, while I stared at the dress. My fingers moved slowly over the tears in it, the stains of blood, my hands closing, trembling as I crushed it against my chest. - IWTV

[lesbiancocksucker]

anyways it makes me insane that it was lestat who saved louis because obviously armand didn't care about claudia so it's very in character for him to let her die but that's lestats daughter!! and she killed him!!!! and he probably felt awful about it but he also wanted the revenge of killing the child that caused him so much grief.

I think he legitimately couldn't save claudia in any way he could think of without losing louis and since this is lestat I think he would've twisted that around to try and pretend like this is what he wants but that denial fell away almost immediately once claudia started burning and also once she turned to look at him and then he's just shaken because he did that. he KILLED his daughter.

and when louis comes he's expecting some gratitude (you can see his slight smile as he hears someone in the dungeon) because even if he couldn't save claudia, louis has to appreciate that he saved him but louis comes with ARMAND (????) and he doesn't forgive lestat. in fact he's so mad that he let their daughter die that he's running away with letstats ex to be in revenge relationship.

and lestat just... has to deal with the grief of losing a child and louis blaming him for 77 years

[gh-0-stcup]

The Great Laws: Explained

Still seeing some confusion about the Paris coven and its laws, so I think an in depth explanation might be helpful to those unfamiliar with the books.

The Great Laws are an invention of the Children of Satan. The Children of Satan was a medieval cult of vampires. It was a way of reconciling their nature with their Christian faith. The philosophy is essentially this - God created all things and has power over all things so Satan is a part of God's order, vampires serve God through serving Satan.

The Children of Satan would renounce luxuries and comfort, avoid mingling with humans, and were not to look upon religious imagery because they were not worthy of doing so. They would also not kill humans who wore crosses because they were protected by God.

Members of the Children of Satan would kill (or attempt to kill) vampires who did not agree with their way of thinking. Or they'd just kidnap and torture vampires until they were agreed to join.

It was a religious extremist cult that terrorized vampires who were just out there trying to live their lives. They didn't represent the beliefs of most vampires nor are they meant to be a realistic example of "vampire society". They were unhinged religious weirdos who brainwashed a bunch of people.

And the past tense here is very important. The Children of Satan is a relic. As far as I can tell, by the time Lestat is turned the coven in Paris is the last one standing. And even that one is in decline. As theology and philosophy evolved over the centuries, their beliefs made less sense to even its own members.

Then Lestat comes along and provides the justification the cult needs to abandon its practices. He gives them a speech about how stupid they're all being and it works because they were thinking it anyway. He also provides them an alternative that allows them to keep a sense of community without the religious shit. Form a theatre company, make some money, meet some new people and have fun!

Unfortunately, Armand was one of those vamps who got kidnapped and brainwashed. He's spent the last several hundred years as the leader of a cult. He was never deprogrammed, he's never lived independently away from the cult, and he was never given much practical long term guidance. The only way he knows to keep control over a group of vampires is through the methods he used as a cult leader.

So the coven we see in the show is essentially just the Children of Satan without the asceticism and religious beliefs. Nobody else is doing this shit because the Children of Satan dissolved over 150 years before Louis and Claudia ever set foot in Europe.

Lestat didn't warn/educate Louis and Claudia about the Great Laws because they are rules of a cult Lestat was never a part of. A cult Lestat actively tried to put an end to. A cult that does not technically exist anymore, that Lestat might not even realize is still following this still.

Lestat did give them real, genuine, practical advice. Do not run off looking for other vampires. Though he says it in anger, his words are very true - other vampires present a serious danger to Louis and Claudia. Not because the trio broke some universal vampire code of conduct, but because vampires are vicious and often don't appreciate being disturbed by rando fledglings.

[gallierhouse]

There is a thing that I have not understood tho:

Like I admit I think the fact that Armand planned to kill Louis is kinda confusing to me and not really coherent with the character's others actions. But I also admit that your explanation behind his actions (or lack of them) made me see that MAYBE it wasn't a complete 360 on the character's motivations.

I also admit that Lestat saving (or trying to save) Louis made sense and it was strange that in the last episode it seemed he didn't even tried to.

Anyway: you said that Louis "thought" Lestat murdered Claudia. But like this episode didn't give us confiration thathe wasn't involved or on board with the death of Claudia. They didn't show (as I think it was likely they would have) that Lestat was blackmailed/controlled by Armand during the Trial. If anything, Lestat being able to save Louis makes him having MORE agency of what I (and others) thought during and in the Trial.

What do you think about that?

Well, I don’t really know what goes through Armand’s head, but I don’t think the reveal was inconsistent with his characterization. But I do think we’ll probably learn more about his perspective in S3.

Re: Lestat, it seems obvious to me that he didn’t want Claudia to die. He chose between saving Claudia and Louis, but he didn’t want her to die (see: his protests about her strength during the rehearsal, his clear grief and guilt in New Orleans). Maybe we’ll see explicit blackmail in the future, but I’m fairly certain he didn’t want Claudia (or Louis, or even Madeleine) to die. It doesn’t track with the way he acted at the rehearsal or in New Orleans, or even when he went back to Magnus’ lair to punish himself and grieve.

[ca-suffit]

I know most of the time the fandom's racism is talked about here (and for good reason), but I hope it's okay to send you something about the show. I think, for myself, I have come to terms with not being able to continue to watch the show in the future, due to the ending of the finale and Rolin Jones' approach for the next season, but I still cannot stop being angry at all of it. Two seasons we saw the racialized abuse Louis suffered at Lestat's hands, we saw something akin to a slavecatcher scene when he went after Claudia to drag her back home, we saw how her turning actually happened and subsequently how dubious any consent from Louis was when it came to loustat's relationship afterwards. We saw the trial framing the two black characters as evil along with racist caricatures and Lestat going along with the plan to kill his daughter. And despite all that, Jones wants the next season to be about forgiveness. For Louis to forgive him. A white character who has abused his black husband and child and instead of continuing to show a difficult but interesting and nuanced relationship, we are just supposed to move on from the domestic violence and the child abuse. And I know many Lestat fans claim he is innocent anyways, so that means it was just the evil brown man and the lying black man who are at fault, which also reeks of racism. I cannot for the life of me see any other reason for all the things that Jones is saying, other than that he, just as Anne Rice, really really wants to have Lestat be the good guy. I would love to hear your or your followers take on it. (Thank you for this blog, it's nice to be able to talk about things like this that would get you hate anywhere else)

Hi, it's fine to talk about the show too! I'm glad ppl find this space helpful, so it's open to a lot of discussions as time goes tbh.

I think it's ttly understandable if some fans want to stop watching and nobody should be made to feel bad about it. The fandom's condescending attitude towards feelings like this, as if ur "stupid" for feeling it bcuz don't u know that Lestat didn't do all that??? is....just fucked up tbh.

For my personal idea of how I assume it's going to go is that Lestat is never going to be "innocent" or "the good one" like some fans want to believe. This isn't Anne Rice where everything is retconned every other book (he's still a jerk in the books anyway, so...). Everyone here is complicated and traumatized and always will be. I think what's going to happen is audiences need to find more peace at understanding that there is no "right" version of any story. Louis and Claudia's perception of Lestat is real to them (and also could have rly happened entirely as shown too!). It doesn't make them liars, it doesn't make the scenes "fake." The abuse has already been admitted to by all witnesses in at least one (major) instance that (Lestat) ppl wanted to be fake the whole time prior. Idk if they're gonna in depth explore this but it would help if they did. Interracial relationships are always going to have misunderstandings bcuz of racial differences. Lestat is already shown to be ignorant on these topics so it's not difficult to understand how he could double down on shit that means nothing to him but everything to Louis and Claudia. U see even Sam using the excuse sometimes of "well he's a vampire and he sees things as a vampire, not a person." The thing ppl need to understand is that feeling "right" doesn't mean u are and it doesn't mean ur actions and words don't have an impact on others that maybe u didn't intend.

I don't expect the show to wash all of that away and say "Louis is a big, fat liar and nothing u saw was real LOL!!!" bcuz....what the fuck. I'm sure Lestat will reflect on events of IWTV the way he does in the books, and I'm *sure* his stans will say that's "the truth," but I don't expect the show is gonna be trying to say it is. It's just *his* version of events. Hopefully they don't downplay a lot of it bcuz I don't think that's gonna go over well tbh. But otherwise, I do feel like forgiveness as a theme is possible.....v long term. I think what the show fumbled was shoving Lestat into the end of S2 in a far too positive light all at once to feel believable. It definitely came across like there's a hidden agenda about him waiting around the corner. That's not what happens in the books, but it's no surprise why nobody (of the typical book ppl) is bringing that up when it paints Lestat in a *better* light. It felt forced and awful to the audience tho, who literally has only known this man as everything u listed. Even for me, knowing the books, it felt like a mess. I guess they had to soften him a little for S3 to keep viewers, but I feel like it could have been done a different way. This came across as feeling exactly what u put, that it's gonna be an "instant" forgiveness. I don't believe that's what's *rly* going to happen, but I am interested in how the opening of the next season is gonna feel.

The books between IWTV and TVL are jarring like this too, but the books are about white men. The weight of all this racial violence isn't hanging over it all between them. Trying to translate all of this to a visual medium that needs to retain viewers but also race swapped characters is....a lot. Idk if they're gonna do it well, we'll have to see.

Obviously anyone else can give feedback too. That's my perspective thru this anon account but I'm def not asking anyone to keep watching if ur just over it and done. That's ttly understandable. I think a lot of ppl feel this way tbh, especially black fans.

[loustat-0]

Hello, hello it's me 👋🏽

Okay so, there's something you mentioned about Claudia on this post here:

(Sorry, for some reason it's actually not letting me add the post link. So maybe if you want you can add it in your "answer" post so others can check that out as well)

I can quote you though: "I also believe Claudia has the mind gift which effected the process" In reference to ep 5 -- we all know what scene.

I wanted to ask you, can you expand on what you meant in saying you think she has the "mind gift" AND how did it effect the process, or why do you think it did?

-- One of the reasons why I had such a strong reaction to that statement, is because while it's possible that I may be living under a rock about it. I have yet to see anyone else even mention it. And there's a very specific scene in the show that always stumps me, and I always considered something along those lines may be possible. But I just haven't seen literally anyone else talk about it. So I've just kept it to myself. So I'd love to know what your meta, or theory or analysis is on this --

Okay so first of all Claudia can block Louis out of her head and I think a young vampire fledgling who is 19 years old can't do that . Louis himself wasn't able to do that even though he was older than Claudia .

When Claudia goes out on a date with Charlie , charlie stated that he can't do it with Claudia because she looked so young but Claudia convinced him otherwise & it looked intense she wasn't being a cute girl on her first date she wanted charlie & she got him to do it with her . Either charlie was so attracted to her that didn't mind the age 😬 or Claudia used some mind gift on him . I think she didn't know if it's a power or not yet . At that point she just did it anyway.

But In Ep 5 when she came back to the house to take Louis I think she knew she had the power she didn't know what it was but she knew she could use it on Louis or even Lestat . I think if she wants to use it intentionally to get something she would do it very well . She came in & created a situation in which the argument started first between herself & Lestat & then she got Louis involved . She damn well knew Louis is Lestat's trigger point she damn well knew Louis wouldn't leave Lestat without seeing him actually hurt him or Claudia she damn well knew Lestat wouldn't let go of Louis easily . Go back & look at how Claudia is talking to Louis in his head in comparison to how she said some stuff louder , her eyes get bigger & more determined & angry while she's talking to Louis in his head . And when Lestat said read her Louis she changed the subject completely on Lestat's insecurities instead of her own . Which eventually blocked Louis to not be able to read her at that moment . And then she gave the last shot : let's be vampires with vampires worthy of your love . As if I'm the only one who is worthy of your love not Lestat . And Lestat couldn't do anything even when he yelled as if he was trying to take his mind out of control of Claudia's mind but he couldn't .

When Claudia went to the pharmacy she wanted a drug which was very dangerous & forbidden especially if you're a 14 year old kid . She wrote on a piece of paper & the pharmacist just gave it to her 😯

Both in the books & on the show She convinced Louis to do something he didn't like to do . She made him believe he wanted to kill Lestat while Louis didn't want that & if he did , he wanted to do it for Claudia . Louis hurts Lestat just to protect Claudia . After Louis killed Lestat on the show he became hateful of Claudia for awhile and Daniel called it out & we saw how Louis pushed Claudia to the wall & also in one of Jacob's recent interviews about S2 he mentioned that they're having problems . In the book when Louie took Lestat to the swamp he started to actually understand who he had killed it's the same on the show Louis realized what actually happened after Lestat was dead . As if he was under some kinda influence to that . In the book when Claudia was slitting Lestat's throat Louis wanted to jump in but Claudia yelled at him to stay away & do nothing so again some kinda mind gift I sense here & there .

Most importantly , in the recent trailer Armand who is the master of mind gift himself told Louis that she's good at shielding her thoughts & that's coming from Armand so he might have sensed something too . And I personally think even in the book Armand noticed that & besides wanting Louis to himself he killed her off Bc she would have been a threat to herself & Louis & himself & others .

[appendectomy]

I feel like this has been said but I've been thinking a lot recently about loustat vs loumand being symbolic of American antiblackness vs European antiblackness...

in the show, American antiblackness is painted as overtly violent: louis is called slurs on multiple occasions to his face, there are race riots, the segregation is overt on transport and in the theatre etc etc. just like how I've seen a lot of people describe lestats abuse as overtly violent: the scene in the church begins with lestat killing two men in front of louis and yelling at him. louis accepts him anyway, because he loves lestat, because he's grieving and is offered comfort, because lestat offers louis power, there are a million reasons why. but from the get-go, lestat is shown to be dangerous and volatile, he doesn't pretend to be harmless in their relationship. but then u get to armand, and immediately armand feins harmlesness. he's powerful yes, there's always the implied threat, but he says outright he won't harm louis. all the actions he takes from then on are in attempt to lull louis into a sense of equality in their relationship, even though armand always holds the most power by being older, coven master, etc. and it's very reminiscent of how louis talks about paris in early season 2: it wasn't not racist, but it wasn't the same as America, he didn't feel like anyone wanted to lynch him (which is obviously foreshadowing about armands actions w the trial, looking back now). the racism there is implied to not be as overt, Europe is different. claudia even brings up the colour of armand's skin when trying to convince louis to trust the coven. but ultimately, louis and claudia still end up being lynched in Europe. the coven may not call louis and claudia slurs, but they're snide and clearly look down on them. in the same vein, armand may never enact overt physical violence on louis the same way lestat did, but he's emotionally abusive and controlling and harms louis indirectly over and over again. Europe may not be antiblack in the same obvious way America is, but it's still antiblack. Armands abuse of louis may not be as obvious as Lestats was, but it was still abuse. the racial commentary in the show is so clearly intertwined w the abuse commentary and I think these parallels are a shining example of that.

[pynkhues]

I am a Lestat-was-trying-to-save-both-of-them-but-realised-he-only-had-the-strength-to-save-one-truther!!

-----

I for sure am too--100% at least in the sense that he WANTED to save both and at some point realized he could only save one. I just don't know if that point was before the trial or during it. And I wonder if that weird little glimpse of Lestat shaking right before Claudia and Madeleine are killed is because he was trying to do the mind control thing again anyway, or something else. idk, just feels like we definitely didn't see the way those last moments really played out.

I forget if it was you or another commenter or someone not even on tumblr who pointed this out, but I like that the show didn't pull punches by making Claudia get sentenced after Louis so that it could just be that Lestat just tried to save her but was too weak. It seems like he made the choice to reserve the mind control trick for Louis, even though he clearly wanted to save Claudia too, but of the two, it was always going to be Louis--it's so much more painful, and gives Lestat so much more to feel guilty and anguished about, that it had to be an active choice.

(x)

Yeah, I agree! Given we know from the friend of the extra who was on set that Santiago was clouding Madeleine's mind to stop Lestat from communicating with her, I tend to think Lestat probably realised during those efforts that he wasn't going to have the strength to save all of them (or both of them, anyway, I can't imagine he would've cared about Madeleine. although maybe he would have even just for the fact that she was Louis' first fledgling). There was probably too I imagine the need to keep an element of surprise to be able to save Louis, because if he saved Claudia first, the cat would be out of the bag and who knows how the Coven would've reacted.

It wasn't me who said that, I don't think, but I totally agree with it. I think it's really important (and amplifies the tragedy, like you said!) that Lestat was faced with his own Sophie's Choice moment there. Choosing Louis is the only option for Lestat, always, no matter how much he may want to make other choices too, and the consequences of that will sometimes be life shattering.