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texasthoughtsaboutnothing · 4 months

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EDIT: I have received several new pieces of information that I'm distributing throughout the doc that further reinforces my stance on this, and is valuable to know. Also, I have sections where I'm more clear on my stance after thinking on it for a while and following more discussions on this. I hope I don't disappoint anyone with my thoughts.

If any part of what I've written here resonated with you, I shamelessly ask that you spread it in your preferred manner, and if you feel there's parts that need work please let me know.

Still gonna regret writing this, I'm sure.

[Warning: Long. Like, really.]

Because of all the shit happening with Arknights, PM is under fire once again as it ties into the larger narrative surrounding Korea and its full on gender war (a real thing that's apparently happening).

For those who don't know, way back in July Limbus Company got the event for 4.5 that included swimsuit versions of Ishmael and Sinclair. The fact that Ishmael was in a full bodysuit while Sinclair was shirtless with a collar led the Korean equivalent of 4chan to accuse PM's lead illustrator of being a feminist, which I guess is a bad thing if you're drowning in Korean culture war bullshit.

Turns out the lead illustrator was a man so they pivoted to the CG artist Vellmori and invented a whole host of bullshit links between her and an extremist group to try and get her fired.

And in accordance with their wishes PM fired her. Except they didn't. Probably?

Most everything known from this point onwards is, bluntly, tainted. It's a lot of machine translated Korean posts or, one way or the other, hasty conclusions from people with agendas (including me, no one is immune to propaganda).

Did Vellmori reach out to a newspaper to whistleblow on PM's flagrant disregard for worker's rights? That was the story at first but follow-ups implied it might be a complete fabrication or an overstatement of her grievances (EDIT, I have received information that while there was a phonecall to Vellmori from PM, it was to set up a meeting to properly hash out next steps and any claims she was fired over the phone are incorrect, and the newspaper that reported as such quietly retracted that statement).

Did a labor union jump the gun on spreading this story to gain political capital without reaching out to PM for their side of the story? Maybe if PM's version of events is true, but that's assuming a lot of malice of an institution doing it's best (EDIT, I have received information that the people directly responsible for handling the PM issue acted independently and were later found in violation of several union laws, including allegations involving CP that I do not want to and will not get into).

PM's story is that once the harassment flared up and involved physical visits to the development office, Vellmori wanted to quit. (EDIT, I have received information that the wording of the various statements can be interpreted as Vellmori leaving of her own volition but also under encouragement; if you see claims that she was forced to resign this is what that claim references.) There was a rumor about her getting 2 years of severance pay, but I don't know if that was ever corroborated and is likely false, but she would have gotten something in accordance with Korean Law which they were found in compliance of.

Everything after announcing her termination of contract (not translating the initial announcement, framing it as a company policy issue, keeping quiet on it for months, constant vague threats of lawsuits) was supposedly a bad attempt at trying to quell the harassment by making it go away. Instead, it exploded, and now if you're a fan you'll have to deal with this coming up forever. I know there's fans who follow me that'll resent me for making this post as they just want to move on (or think I'm wrong or misrepresenting some details).

I resent making this for what its worth, and am trying my best to be accurate, but for me this is part of moving on, acknowledging the bad and the factors that mitigate it. And yes, I think there are several mitigating factors.

Why did Cassie Wei, lead singer of Project Mili who is both Korean and a woman, speak out in KJH's defense?

Why hasn't, to my knowledge, Vellmori said anything since and by and large just disappeared if she was so poorly mistreated?

Why have, again to my knowledge, none of the Voice Actors and Actresses spoken out against PM in solidarity?

Why do PM continue to have partnerships with progressive companies like Arc System Works?

Why did the labor union retract their statements against PM and apologize following an actual investigation?

EDIT: New info. Why did the labor union censure the people responsible for handling the PM issue, who later quit the group seemingly in disgrace?

Why did PM not bring their own lawyers to the meeting with Vellmori while she was allegedly encouraged to bring hers?

None of these questions completely absolve PM of wrongdoing, if you were set on condemning them it's not hard to interpret each in a very uncharitable way. For example, most of this is easily answered by the fact we live under Capitalism and we inevitably all have to swallow our morals and ideals to make rent. I could retort that maybe PM did the same by capitulating in any degree to harassment (which they have done historically as what happened with Ruina's ending) and not specifically endorsing any ideology or political belief (which is wild considering the actual content of their stories). But I think that ends with a circular argument that boils down to whether you believe in PM or not.

To be clear, even if you want to interpret all the Vellmori stuff as charitably as possible, PM undeniably fucked up and has labor issues in its history. The artist for the manga Leviathan, Monggeu, came out during the whole thing to speak on her treatment as a contractor; how she was given an impossible workload and the company denied her requests for delays, delays caused in part by suicidal depression caused by the workload. Though KJH personally apologized to her, she was let go over the phone and spoke out only after she felt the company now had a pattern of abusive work policies. The author of Wonderlab also deleted her stuff in solidarity.

That's all bad. Really bad. I stopped playing Limbus because I felt extreme disappointment with the company and managerial tendencies of KJH. Credit to a reddit user I won't name for pointing this out, but this information is far more concrete than anything involving Vellmori as Monggeu broke her silence independently months after things happened on her personal Twitter. However, there isn't nearly as much focus on this or calls for Justice for Monggeu.

This opinion is mine and mine alone, but her situation, which I must stress was awful and shameful on PM's and KJH's part, doesn't tie into a culture war like "Vellmori being fired for feminist tweets" does. It is a clear cut example of bad labor and managerial practices that lead to harm towards an employee, but its an everyday tragedy, not a martyrdom. And so I wonder how much the treatment of labor is actually part of this discussion, the more actionable issue than changing all of Korean society. I wonder if PM's supposed kowtowing to incels is highlighted above all other context because it casts PM as an enemy in a culture war.

I say the above because I've seen online culture war stuff happen before, and it scares me beyond just whether a company I like gets redeemed in the eyes of others. I have seen lives destroyed in the name of a just cause for nothing, including good progressive causes like feminism. If the only thing that would satisfy or lead to forgiveness is a revolutionary purge, do you actually want to build anything?

I digress, and I hope I didn't turn you off too much with my thoughts and fears there. It's important though, because there was ultimately an apology from PM.

In it, among other things, they laid out their flawed logic on how they wanted to handle the situation, addressed their treatment of both current employees and past contractors, and promised to improve and protect employees better. Since then, things seem to have changed at least from an outsiders' perspective. The game moved away from a strict list of deadlines and towards a more open-ended dev pipeline. The game is less buggy than it used to be after updates. They changed policies on content to make it easier to produce by limiting VA without any blowback from their VA's so we can assume proper talks were had. Translations don't have as many errors as they used to while the quality has been maintained even after losing a major translator (which is its own tale of baffling choices by the company in its own right). And they've kept all this up for Season 3 so far without any announcements of delays and, in fact, far more content than usual. All of this, to me, points to better management.

Maybe I'm naive to think so but I want to believe that the evidence points to the crimes of PM not coming from a place of malice and antifeminism but incompetence. I need to stress KJH didn't kill or rape anybody, nor was he verbally or physically abusive. He was a really shitty boss, and I understand how much it sucks to have a shitty boss, believe me. But a shitty boss can become not shitty, and my hope is that happened already, and that a company that produces good art that's worthwhile will thrive as a result.

I say all this because I actually care about this company and art it produces. If I didn't, last July wouldn't have hurt so much. If I'm cringe for it, so be it, but I believe constructive change should be recognized and rewarded, and it's for those reasons I came back after following the game for the rest of its second season.

To be clear, you don't owe a company your time or your money even if they improve their culture and policies, and if you felt that what PM or KJH has done is unforgivable you are well within your rights not to engage with it ever again or even tell others about your grievances, as much as I might disagree. But if you want them to suffer, to lose business, maybe even to go under despite how many other women work for and with them... I don't know. Please don't just think of these people as enemy units in the war against feminism? Ask yourself that if Vellmori broke her silence tomorrow and asserted she left of her own volition and condemned groups like the PMUA, would you believe her or immediately assume she's under duress?

This is not a cut and dry, black and white moral issue where a great evil needs vanquishing, it's a messy as hell moral and labor issue involving multiple people wrapped up in larger cultural and social issues no one initially involved intended. There are real people involved who stand to get hurt, not to mention who's been hurt already. Justice can involve other things than a firing squad. Please at least acknowledge that much. inb4 "No and kindly die"

EDIT, regarding the lawsuits. If you didn't know, PM is currently suing the labor union and a separate organization once called the PMUA (Project Moon Users Association) now called the KGA (Korean Gamer Association). I have seen unconfirmed reports that the former has ties to the disgraced Korean Ratings Board exposed by Blue Archive Fans for crypto bullshit. In addition, I have seen criticisms of how the PMUA used donations and their effectiveness in actual addressing PM and its labor issues, including demonstrations on days workers and management weren't even present and being the ones responsible for leaking documents that Vellmori allegedly wanted to be kept private. All of that supports PM's allegations that these organizations were in fact targeting them as part of political ploys and they never cared about any of the victims or ideals they touted as representing. For all the above, PM is suing for defamation, which is well within their rights by my reckoning. Regardless of my thoughts, this is where we are now.

Last and by no means least, feminism is good. Wanna be clear on that, I believe in equal pay, reproductive rights, that grip strength is a stupid metric to measure human rights by, that men are not owed sex and love by women regardless of circumstance, the whole shebang.

Also, what's happening in South Korea is scary and serious and bigger than just a terminally online culture war shitfest, more like an active bomb about to explode. I support the women who live there and their fight for equality, I just don't think PM fundamentally has anything to do with it and constantly trying to drag it into the line of fire feels like faux activism. I think the scope of the gender war is very far beyond the limits of gacha game discussion, or for that matter the actions of a single company of, like, 50 people.

(I swear to god if Vellmori makes a post tomorrow accusing KJH of SA or something after I wrote all this I will throw myself into the ocean.)

This will actually be the last time I talk about this unless something changes, I want to believe I was respectful the whole time and don't mean to belittle anyone for their beliefs or choices (unless you're an incel, please be better, also take a shower).

#project moon #limbus company #mysogyny #obviously this is a lot #sorry #was a draft i was gonna delete but this arknights thing popped off and I saw 2 posts linking Limbus even though it's tangential #guess I just want a better counternarrative to “PM is the evil antifeminist bad labor company” than “nuh uh”#because bad shit happened #i just also believe its gotten better and that many of the accusations are vindictive more than disappointed #anti-PM sentiment feels fueled by non fans getting news from other non fans sometimes

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the-furthest-city-light · 6 months

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My unhinged thoughts on Luffy and Garp's relationship post-Marineford

Y'all have a very lovely comment on one of my fics to blame for this rant on Luffy and Garp's relationship and where they stand after Marineford:

Luffy and Garp as they relate to each other is so interesting because I think despite his absences, Luffy acquired a lot of his ideas about what family is and isn't from Garp. And, maybe, learned to separate what a person is to him from who that person is, too. In a way I think that's why he imprinted so hard on Shanks--he's the first person Luffy met whose role in his life matches who he is as a person and it's why he builds himself a family by acquiring people whose goals match his own so that there IS no conflict. Fast forward to Luffy as a teenager, we see that when Luffy is confronted by a person who has a conflict with his own ideals and goals, it doesn't present an inherent issue for him--that's the primary way he relates to people anyway (for ex: Coby).

Garp is also the one who modeled for Luffy that presence/time spent doesn't correllate to the strength of a relationship, that just because Garp wasn't there all the time doesn't mean they don't have a bond. And yes this gave Luffy all the abandonment issues but it's clear that Luffy has accepted it by the time canon comes around. At some point he clearly decided to view it as "Gramps gave me what he needed and made sure I had a family to grow up with and that's plenty, of course he loves us," and not "Gramps abandoned me and never loved me."

On top of all of that, whatever else Garp did or did not think about him, Ace, and Sabo, and their dreams, Luffy grew up knowing that Garp valued them and their lives above the letter of the law and his job. Luffy never cared who Ace's dad was, but he grew up knowing that Garp also knew and always thought he deserved to have a chance to live, and always loved Ace even if he never approved of the kids' desire to be a pirate. He knows that Garp values family over the law.

And then there's Garp. Garp who Sengoku describes as "a family man more than a marine." Garp who refused (multiple!) promotions to the Admirality because he didn't want to serve the Celestial Dragons, Garp who Roger trusted with his very own kid. His parenting techniques might be...questionable (read: If this was a real man he would have CPS called on him so fast but we're going with the intended reading of him from the manga) but it's clear he loves the kids. We also know the man has a flexible view of the law, he's a Marine because he believes it's where he can do the most good/help the most people. He views the rules as things he can bend if not break (a quality that clearly gets stronger as the generations pass lmao). He doesn't seem to respect authority, but he DOES seem to respect the need for the perception of it, or at least the role the Marines need to play in the eyes of the public. He believes people need heroes to believe in, and he believes the Marines should fill that role, and that's what he spent his life trying to embody.

And then Marineford.

Garp is caught between these two things: his family, and the institution he devoted his life to. And it sucks, obviously. He goes to visit Ace in Impel Down and he tells him a few things, but Garp says 1) No one can stop the war (not even him), 2) he's proud of Luffy for everything he did at Enies Lobby and Sabaody, (which also tells Ace that he's not condemned in his eyes for being a pirate--the condemnation of his life is coming from the institution Garp works for, not from Garp as a judgement of the man he became).

Ace responds by saying Whitebeard is the only father he has (ouch--Garp is the only father figure Ace grew up with), which is the last exchange we have until this:

Garp believes in the need for the execution and the war in general--the problem for him is that this is his family. This is the baby he took responsibility for, a kid he's loved for years. So Garp doesn't do anything in the war, doesn't object or condem. All he does is take a seat next to Ace, keeps him company. And to be fair to Garp? It doesn't seem like Ace expects anything more. And it seems like he appreciates it.

So he's got one kid on the execution stand, and he's resolved to let him die for the sake of what he thinks is the greater good. And his other kid, the one chasing the same fate that's getting Ace killed now, is trying to save his life. And he just...watches it unfold, because he's trapped by his own convictions--another thing he passed down to both of the boys, so how can he betray what he told them and not hold steady to his own beliefs?

I think for Luffy, he probably didn't have much time to process Garp's presence at Marineford or his role in Ace's execution at the time. In fact the only time they really interract directly is this moment from a chapter literally titled "The Execution Platform":

The title obviously refers to the literal execution platform Ace is on that Luffy has been trying to reach the entire arc but metaphorically? It's also about this. Luffy, being confronted with a grandfather who is for some reason putting his job over his brother's life, and Garp, making a last ditch effort to stand by his own conviction.

There's no way Luffy can understand this decision in the moment--he already made the same one on Amazon Lily, where he was faced with the option to either go and meet his crew on Sabaody (keep following his dream) or go after Ace. He chose Ace, because Luffy always chooses people over his own goals. I think he would understand Garp more if he had been present for Garp and Ace's conversations on the scaffold, but he wasn't.

There's an argument to be made here that Garp is giving Luffy the opportunity to save his brother by stepping in himself and letting Luffy punch him. It would be more plausible except for the fact that Garp calls Luffy "Straw Hat" here instead of "Luffy." He drops the familiarity, and he sets himself in Luffy's way, even when Luffy begs him. I don't think Garp knew he was going to let Luffy knock him away until the very last second. Not until Luffy committed to punching him.

He gives Luffy this one last piece of advice, this one last chance to be his grandfather, where he says "this is the path you have chosen, and it will be difficult, but you're on it now and you have to commit.":

And he remembers Ace saying he wants to live, and lets Luffy hit him to get to his brother.

This is the last we see of their relationship. Luffy doesn't mention him again except to tell Chin Jao off in Dressrosa. Presumably he processed how his relationship with his grandfather has changed in the aftermath, but what he thinks about it? Mostly a mystery. All the things he got from Garp are still true, and I think he still probably manages to compartmentalize most of it as a person vs. dreams/conviction thing. Luffy wouldn't judge Garp for his decisions, and he wouldn't hold resentments either. Whatever he feels or doesn't feel toward Garp, it's definitely overshadowed by Ace's loss.

For Garp's part, the man retired immediately after the war. Luffy literally says "If I don't do everything I can to save Ace, I wouldn't be able to live with myself" a few chapters before the execution stand, and Garp didn't live with himself, at least not without changing his circumstances. He gave up his commission to run escorts for royalty and train people. We do know he's still proud of Luffy, like he told Ace in Impel Down, and he laughs when Luffy's New World exploits are brought up. Garp's the one with regrets, not Luffy, and I think if they ever speak again (who knows, with Garp being...y'know), it'll be about those regrets.

What else do you talk about with estranged family?

#one piece #luffy #garp #meta #long post #tp #marineford spoilers #dressrosa spoilers #impel down spoilers #reverie spoilers #egghead spoilers #tbh I felt a lot more sympathetic to Garp by the end of this than I expected #I mean he's still an idiot #what kind of grandfather doesn't fight the military to save his grandkid when he has the chance #but this is one piece and in the eyes of the series #Garp is not a bad guy because he was suffering a conflict of ideals #Luffy deserves to be mad at him but I doubt we're gonna get that/doubt he IS mad #just disappointed

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