#beyond the spiderverse theories

[agentem]

On Miguel

I think Beyond the Spider-verse will have more Miguel. Oscar Issac was announced as Spider-Man 2099 he was said to be a co-lead of the film (x). But I felt this film did not feature him significantly, which makes me think a lot of his stuff was pushed back to the second movie.

Maybe we will see events from his eyes next time instead of Gwen's? (Originally the movies were to be part one and part two, but Lord and Miller said they realized it was two separate stories. So it's possible the order of things got shuffled around.) A Miguel story might also pair well with Miles in Earth-42 if we are talking about people making some hard choices, and not having it so easy.

A lot of 2099's motivation in this film, Across the Spider-verse, is a bit vague. We know there is a tragic backstory but we don't see it or feel it, which would make me more invested in him as a "lead."

I do think he's wrong about the canon events. For the film to work narratively, it makes more sense if the Spot is actually the anomaly and not Miles. He just thinks it's Miles because it's coming from his universe. And Miguel will be like "let's kill The Spot!" but Miles will talk to him and show him he's not a villain of the week and they really are nemeses. So then the Spot can stop ripping holes in the fabric of the universe and go back to stealing money from ATMs in a hilarious fashion. Everyone wins. (The vocal cue of Alfred Molina's Doc Ock paired with the Spot repeating one of his lines had made me think he will be redeemed. That was revolutionary about Spider-man 2 and subsequently No Way Home. To show a superhero who talks to and cares about the bad guy.)

The anomalies could also be tied to the wider Marvel multiverse. The MCU is dealing with Kangs, so there's that, obviously.

The Sonyverse is also introducing Madam Web into their Venom/Morbius/Whatever it is (They are going to try to get me hyped by saying it's Sony's first female-centric story but it was written by the Morbius people so I will try not to get my hopes up).

I grew up with the 90s cartoon where Madame Web (voiced by Stan Lee's then wife, Joan) was like, in charge of the multiverse. I'd love for the end of Beyond the Spider-verse would be the Joan Lee version to show up and say, "Miguel, I love you, sweetie, but you are bad at this. I am taking over. Miles, you have never done anything wrong in your life."

[d-1hater]

I have many thoughts and theories about ATSV

Spoilers below

I've seen a lot of people theorizing that Miguel invented the canon events in his mind to cope with the loss of his family, which I can 1000% see that being what happened butI have my own theory and it is a little different.

Theory #1: We know from the end credit scene in Into the Spiderverse Miguel went to several other dimensions in general and then he obviously had to recruit. During this he saw a fuck ton of similar yet slightly different events that continually happened to each spider person, thus sparking the idea of canon events. Pretty much all of these canon events take place after, during, or as a result of a Spider fight. Given the number of Spider villains with ties to Alchemax, which is known to in pretty much every universe have unstable black matter that stated in Into the Spiderverse could consume Brooklyn into a black hole. It's probably not far of a stretch that when a universe is destroyed it's because something went wrong at Alchemax. Pavitr's universe started to collapse after and where Alchemax went down. I'd bet that every missed canon event was during or after a fight that resulted in Alchemax malfunctioning and Miguel just read into those events too much because it meant that he was not alone in his suffering. The canon event that would lead to the universe he went to collapsing isn't adding up, this could be why and he's clinging to the canon events theory to cope with all that he's lost as Spider-Man because it means he's not that alone. Maybe he even realized it was Alchemax causing the destruction but he can't let go of the canon events theory because he feels guilty that he didn't save that universe

Theory #2: It has nothing to do with canon events and more about the plot. I think it's gonna be less about Spot and Jeff than it will be about the Spider people having to side with Miguel or Miles and their own moral dilemmas. The cause or truthfulness of the canon events will definitely be revealed, and the Spiders on the wrong side of that, which will most likely be Miguel's side will have to cope with that and choose if they still want to even be apart of the Spiderverse. Though what it comes down to for Miguel could go two ways

He's forced to realize he was wrong and he helps Miles defeat Spot and save his father though intensely more convoluted and angsty, I'm tired so you get no details.

Dude has like a whole motherfucking mental break what this means I don't know I'm tired and losing my train of thought

Ultimately, I think Miguel will take part in beating Spot

Theory #3: They break the 4th wall

I had more but I forgot them, if I remember any I will update this.

[disconnected-dragon]

beyond the spiderverse speculation/unhinged babbling that i hope is true

okay fam just got out of the Across the Spiderverse theater and I have-- a few theories. Well-- more like hopeful speculation that gets more and more outlandish as we go out, so-- please bear with me for a couple paragraphs. Spoilers under the cut.

Okay this is heavily based on assumptions and logic and what I personally noticed from the movie and how I personally think the Spider-Verse runs on, so please bear the hell with me.

I think Miguel’s canon theory is incorrect and that the multiverse has ways of self balancing itself because of Miles’ self correction. He had canon events like the death of Uncle Aaron, IE his Uncle Ben moment. It’s also established that it’s possible for multiverses to exist without canon events/canon events can be tweaked, such as Gwen’s dad quitting, and Mayday existing. It's also implied that if there's a Spider-Vacuum, so to speak, that universe will seek to fill it. Like Miles getting bitten to cover for Peter Parker's death. Ik this theory also works in reverse, like if there's too many Spider-People from one universe, one of them is going to die. But it also assumes the existence of Spider-Vacuum, because of all the Spider-People get bitten at the right time/place. If a universe needs a Spider-Person/will need a Spider-Person, someone's getting bit.

So if it's established that the multiverse can self-regulate itself, then it follows that Earth 42 needs a Spider-Person and that the multiverse/his universe is currently acting to try to fill that Spider-Person vacuum. You can argue that The Prowler is technically this universe's Spider-Person, but if we're going by what seems to be the multiverse's logic AND NOT MIGUEL'S-- that being someone needs to get bit by a radioactive spider and become a "hero" so to speak-- and someone from Earth 42 is gonna have to get bit.

IE-- Prowler Miles.

This is speculation held together by duct tape, spit, and prayers, but I think that due to the timey wimey multiversality, etc etc, kinda bullshit shenanigans of the next movie, Earth 42 Miles is gonna get bit by a radioactive spider, maybe have his canon event of Uncle Aaron dying (big emphasis on maybe there because the death his dad can act as both canon events and its established they can be tweaked), and take up the mantle of Spider-Man. Albeit more of an antihero, and influenced by Uncle Aaron. Because his neighborhood is not friendly and they need a tougher Spider-Man.

Think abt it, if Miles WAS supposed to be Spider-Man in his universe AND in Earth 42, it makes sense that Prowler Miles would eventually get bit, even if it takes more time then usual. He ALSO HAS the canon events of Uncle Ben/the police captain (just consolidated into one person-- hey tweaked canon event!), and there's a Spider-Man vacuum in his home universe. It would also back up the idea that Miguel's idea is wrong, because the universe fixed its "mistake" and solved the "anomaly" by itself. It's proof that the multiverse doesn't need a Spider-Cop for the rest of the Spider-People, and he needs to take a goddamn chill pill and let the Miles Moraleses do their thing.

Hell, maybe these dimensional rifts in the first place are the multiverses' attempts to self-regulate and get a radioactive spider into Earth 42, but Miguel keeps fucking it up and that's why Spot was created. To FORCE Earth 42 Miles into the wider multiverse AND GET HIM BIT whether he wants to be bit or not. This last paragraph is probably not true at ALL-- but i wanted to throw it out there because I don't believe in consistency, like Hobie.

Plus an antihero Spider-Man that's taken some hits/had some bad influences in his life would reinforce the idea that "anyone can wear the mask". Sure, Miles G Morales was the Prowler, and he made some bad choices. His methods are unorthodox even by Spider-Person standards. But he's still Spider-Man, and that mask is his regardless of how it got there. Just like it belongs to OG Miles as well. So c'mon people, let's do this one last time--

TL;DR: Prowler Miles is a late bloomer Spider-Man and is gonna totally own Miguel with multiversal facts and logic.

[ghostflowerhotpotch]

Theory time- Adapting to the new universe?

I am not the first one to say it, but during the glitching in Earth-42, at some point Miles' shoes ends up changing; you can compare the top of his shoes, originally pure red, to dots and circles.

I found this interesting, because it could imply that while things that are originally from another universe would disintegrate (as it was told to us in the first movie,) maybe Miles, because he has the spider from this universe, can kind of just adapt to it?

Is a crazy theory, but hey, is fun to think of possibilities isn't it?

[miguelobsession]

If we're gonna get Peter B stopping Miguel from going after Miles and they get a flashback of how Peter got Miguel back to HQ after his daughter died, and was with him when he broke down I'm gonna fucking sob in the cinema

[razmerry]

Fan of Superior Spider-Man, making predictions for Beyond the Spider-Verse: getting a lot of Superior Spider-Man vibes from this…

[amateurhoursstuff]

Shoe theory (part 2)

I already made a theory that Ganke 42 couldn't steal Miles 42's shoes(his shoe size is too small since he was never bitten by the spider and never got bigger), but something about it didn't sit right with me. Having Ganke just steal Miles's shoes just to say this was too random. Sure, maybe it's also to show how comfortable him and Miles are with eachother compared to the first movie, but it still felt so out of place. Until I remembered something.

Ganke isn't the only one who stole people's shoes.

"Are those my Jordans?"

"Are those my chucks?"

I am beginning to think that they'll have more parallels in the future bc stealing shoes is just too random for it to be a coincidence.

Edit:Now that I think about it, the real question should be: WHY do these two characters have connections?

If the plan was to get Miles's attention, Gwen's backfired(because she probably wanted to impress him, but hobie made him insecure and the shoe stealing got his attention in basically the worst way possible), and Ganke's plan certainly succeeded(I've seen it in fiction and real life. People stealing their crush's belongings to get any kind of attention from them and Ganke definitely got it.)

[muchymozzarella]

Beyond the Spider-verse Theory

tldr

MIGUEL'S DAUGHTER IS STILL ALIVE and so is her universe, and it's simply no longer connected to the web that is the "Spider-verse"

also fun fact TRN 660 is a universe where Miguel's son Gabri becomes Spider-Man so if anyone's ever had a trans headcanon for Miguel's daughter y'all are canon validated

[spicypepperjack]

If the Miles-1610 and Gwen-65 we know in the Spider-Verse trilogy actually do become Earth-8 Miles and Gwen by the end of Beyond the Spider-Verse, I really hope they don't become a celebrity couple.

We learned that Miles got cancelled multiple times on social media, and Gwen got treated as a pariah for accidentally causing her Peter's death. Obviously, their public treatments are not equal, but the point remains that that clout hasn't always been favorable to them.

Given their experiences, I feel like those two would really like to be low-key about their relationship and would want to continue as the friendly, neighborhood Spider heroes as they've always been. Being a celebrity couple would likely distract them from that ideal and might change their behaviors for the worse, especially if they're subject to the court of public opinion.

Sure, they'd find it cute when people inevitably ship their Spider-selves, but I think they'd do their best to keep their real relationship behind closed doors.

[luvjunie]

Beyond the Spiderverse Theory!!

contains spoilers for across the spiderverse

okay so in the next movie, beyond the spiderverse, i think miles’ dad will survive. somehow, someway he’ll be saved from his untimely death.

miles was told numerous times in across the spiderverse that he cannot have his cake and eat it too. and he retorts with “unless you have two cakes!” miles is unmoving on his belief of “spiderman always does both.”

while reading out what he wants the bakery to write on the cake, he’s told it won’t fit on one. so he opts for buying two cakes, but while being spiderman, stopping a villain and swinging to his apartment, (aka: trying to do both) he’s late for his parents’ party, both of the cakes are ruined, he misses his dad’s heartfelt speech and then gets grounded. essentially the lesson from this is that he has to choose his battles correctly, that he cannot do both.

when miles finds out his dad is supposed to die, he tells miguel that he can save his father and save the city/civilians, because spiderman ALWAYS does both, but like we‘ve seen numerous times, sometimes doing both just isn’t possible. in order to have one thing, you have to give up something else. he’s told that this is what being spiderman is all about, that this is what he signed up for.

miles isn’t satisfied with this answer, and says he’s gonna do his own thing.

a good portion of the movie focuses on the development of miles’ and his mom’s relationship, while him and his dad’s is still kind of rocky. he’s growing up right in front of her eyes and she has to change the way she parents, but expresses that she’s scared of losing her little boy to the world, and that she just wants to protect him because others might not have his best interests at heart— and we end up seeing that later on. our focus is pulled from this when we see what miles’ canon event is supposed to be— his dad’s death.

where i’m going with this? the one you expect is never the one they take. usually the character who we think is the safest, is actually the one who’s in danger.

in miles’ comics, during the battle with venom, he saves his father from dying but while this happens, the police accidentally shoot (and kill) his mother, rio, when they were aiming for venom. and as she’s bleeding out in his arms, this is when he finally confesses to her that he’s spiderman (something he didn’t get to do at the end of the movie because he was in the wrong universe). more happens w this in the comics but we know sometimes movies don���t follow the plot to a T, and beyond the spiderverse is supposed to be the end to his story.

so let’s replace venom with another villain that we’ve recently been introduced to, the spot. another ridiculously powerful villain that the cops will stupidly try and apprehend with guns that don’t stand a chance like they always do.

that being said, i don’t think they’re going to kill off miles’ dad.

i think they’re going to kill off his mom.

[ficsinhistory]

ok, but there's something extremely haunting about the fact that the writers confirm that Gwen is the light and colors of Miles' life, and is basically associated with the sun, as we saw in the tower scene. And then the name of the event in which all the Gwens die is called "The NIGHT Gwen Stacy Died".

You know…that period of the day where there is no sun and that has to happen anyway because the night always comes.

But the sun also always comes back the next day.

[vikingknight90]

New quote from the directors regarding Beyond:

"It will be a very satisfying conclusion. It goes even more emotionally deep into the relationships between Miles, Gwen, Peter, his parents... Daniel Kaluuya as Hobie Brown. All your favorites are back. The big thing that's interesting for Miles is, how do you deal with the sense of betrayal and turn it into something affirmative? The thing that we're trying to do with these movies is represent goodness, and show how the love that the characters in the movie have for Miles translates into his growth and success."

Source

I'm so excited, of course I had to bold out my favorite parts..

What are your interpretations for what they're saying here? I'm really curios about the "deal with the sense of betrayal and turn it into something affirmative" part.

And of course it sounds like the characters' love for Miles, including Gwen's, will ultimately make Miles feel stronger and be a source of his victory in the end (most likely Gwen's own victory as well.) <3

[danwhobrowses]

Beyond the Spider-Verse Theory: The Hidden Villain

So I've left it a few days after watching Across the Spider-Verse to gather my thoughts. And while you can see my review here it's time for some theory crafting for the next movie: Beyond the Spider-Verse

This theory will discuss the existence of another villain behind the scenes

Spoilers for Across the Spider-Verse

So as we know, the main crux of the Spider Society's storyline is that the Web of Life and Destiny (aka the Spider-Verse) apparently hinges on the concept of 'Canon Events', whereby each Spider has to undergo intersecting moments in each mythos. Miguel O'Hara enforces this pattern via the Spider Society, after his attempts to 'break canon' caused the universe he inhabited, taking over from another dead Miguel's life, to die - along with his alternative universe daughter. We also learn that anomalies like this will cause the web to collapse, and thus Miles - having been bitten by another universe's spider to get spider powers, allegedly robbing the powers from another potential spider - and Spot are walking anomalies and their prolonged time in another universe may cause another collapse.

But something doesn't quite add up.

First of all, if Miles and Spot are anomalies, why is their universe still intact? Same can be said for the Earth-42 spider still in a jar. Additionally, why did Miguel's universe collapse if he had the watch that keeps his atoms good in the universe? Isn't he doing exactly what he alleges Miles is doing, taking over another Spider-person who died in this Universe? Also it's highly unlikely that every Spider is subject to the same canon events; Ben Reilly is a clone and Miguel had his DNA mixed with a spider's so surely that disrupts the OG Canon Event of the Spider-bite right? Miguel never had an Uncle Ben or a Captain Stacy moment in his mythos (unless we're suddenly counting the alt!Daughter as the former), plus in Into the Spider-Verse Gwen already said she saved her dad from dying so wouldn't that have disrupted a Canon Event? Do captains even exist for Peter Parked Car or Spidersaurus Rex?

And finally, how can you say Spot and Miles are anomalies and shouldn't be in the universe when Pravitr's Canon Event is only caused by Spot interfering with his universe?

Like I said, it doesn't add up.

So, how do we establish that the idea of 'Canon Events' are not as strict as they seem, that Miles and Spot aren't reality-threatening anomalies, but also explain what happened to the universe that traumatized Miguel - with Peter B. also as witness to verify the story?

Perhaps, someone is manipulating the web behind the scenes.

In the comics, the Web of Life and Destiny is maintained by the 'Master Weaver', a character key to Morlun and his Inheritors, and while I don't think we're going to see the Weaver in Beyond the Spider-Verse I do feel like somebody could be filling that kind of a role. So ask yourself, who do we know in the Spider-Verse who has a unique interest in other dimensions, has the mind to test and tinker, but also has a fascination slash vendetta against the spiders...

Dr. Olivia Octavius was a highlight of the first movie, but her sudden exit after being hit by a truck was considered an abrupt and unsatisfying end for her. So what if she survived? And when the collider closed she was sucked into the Web of Life and Destiny? An inquisitive mind such as herself would have a wealth of time (well, not literally, given that Miles got a glimpse of the future and Spider Society HQ is in 2099 we can assume that the web exists outside of linear time) to test things, seeing the paths and intersections of other Spiders. Liv however does have one particular Spider she seems drawn to in a negative manner though, Peter B. Parker, so what if Miguel's incident in the universe collapsing was instead an attempted hit towards Peter B., Liv attempting to wipe him out of time by wiping the universe he was in?

It does go deeper, we've seen from the Spot that in his flashback scenes he's always adjacent to Liv, they both identified the Earth-42 spider, and she was the leading scientist on the Collider, so she would have the skills to know this, and if she became able to expand her abilities by being a villainous Master Weaver (like Superior Spider-Man attempted to be by killing the Master Weaver to change his fate), she may also be responsible for directing other Spiders' paths along the same route to manipulate Miguel into his current uncharacteristic way of thinking, she may also be manipulating her colleague Spot to encourage more suffering to the Spiders.

If true, it'll at least give Miguel closure and open the door for him to be apologetic and much less of a dick, but it'd also explain how Miles could become able to divert the idea of Canon Events without destroying his or other universes, liberating each Spider to exist in their own story without having to follow the same pattern. Adding to a much bigger role for Octavius (we did see a lot of variant Doc Ocks in ATSV) would provide a cyclic conclusion to Miles' journey since his other 'first villains' Kingpin and Prowler have been defeated.

But, this is just a theory, there's much room to go other directions, but it was a thought.

[erika111111]

I 100% stand by my theory that if someone from Gwen's universe is transgender, that it's actually NOT Gwen herself, but Peter! And that's why he was bullied so bad and what led him to do what he did... And that's why Gwen and her father are such big advocates for trans rights, as well.

I could be wrong, maybe I'm being dumb and forgetting something; it could be Gwen, or it could never have any explanation, but if it does, I think that would be a really good plot twist.

[fermented-writers-block]

You know, I just can’t stop thinking about the achronal time weirdness of Miles’ vision of the future.

I’ve talked before how - due to the overall themes surrounding “Canon Events” as well as Inspector Singh’s unexplained appearance in said vision - I suspect the Spot may retroactively become responsible for the dimensional collapses the Spider-Society has encountered from too many averted Canon Events.

All perhaps from an effort to try to force tragedy and suffering upon Miles that might accidentally end up affecting all those other Spider-Men, but still. However, it just hit me that we have already seen a hint of this time weirdness before, and to a degree that supports my theory even better than the vision.

Namely, Gwen explicitly arriving to Earth-1610 a literal week before the collider incident that brought the five alternate Spider-Men over.

Dear lord is it terrifying to picture the Spot realizing his dark matter doesn’t just affect space, but it can also be used to affect things through time as well…

[heart-of-the-morningstar]

Opening for BTSV thought…

Ok so, we know how Gwen opened up ATSV, she had like the first 20 minutes that set up the movie. Now hear me out, what if Pavitr opens up BTSV (I may be biased but let me live lol), but imagine if you will…

Pavitr was left behind when the rest of the Spider Band left for Nueva York, so Pav is there wondering what’s going on. He swings down to the other Spider people where they are trying to contain the black hole that appeared. He starts asking them questions, but all of the answers aren’t very helpful. “We’re trying to contain the anomaly.” “The canon was broken.” This doesn’t really clear anything up, but he knows whatever is happening is not good.

He swings back up to the bridge, he makes sure everyone is clear of the damage. He heads home to Maya Auntie, he finds her asleep on the couch. She left the tv on, it was the news. They were reporting on the black hole that appeared in the middle of city. Pav feels weary, he finds a blanket and places it over Maya and turns the tv off. He goes to bed and tries to sleep, but he can’t.

Quietly, he puts his suit on and grabs his watch from Miguel and swings into the night. His plan was to travel to Nueva York to get answers from Miguel as to what was happening to his city. But as he swings, he ends up swinging by Gayatri’s home. He sees her on the balcony and lands on a near by rooftop. Normally, he wouldn’t interact with her as Spider-Man, but in this case, he felt it justified to check up on her since he did rescue her earlier.

He swings and lands on top of her rooftop. He attaches is web to their chimney and hangs upside down in front of her. She’s startled at first but recollects herself once she realizes who it is. He apologizes for scaring her and says he recognized her as the girl from the bus. He asks her if she’s alright, she giggles and says she’s fine and that she’s lucky that he was there to save her. He’s relieved and tells her he needs to go, but she tells him to wait. She asks him if there’s a way she can repay him for saving her life, perhaps a kiss.

Pav is taken a back, he’s stammering, he wants to say yes because of course he wants a kiss from her. But he’s not Pavitr right now, he’s Spider-Man, he can’t accept. But he still form a coherent sentence, finding it hard to say no. Gayatri laughs “What’s wrong, you don’t want a kiss from your girlfriend, Pav?”

He goes silent, trying hard to process what she just said. “W-what?” is all he could manage. “It’s okay Pavitr, I know it’s you.” At this point, he flipped himself right-side up, standing in front of her now. Slowly, he reaches up to his mask and pulls it off, he stares at the ground.

“How did you know?” He asks softly, he hasn’t lifted his head to look at her yet. “Well, the hug you gave today kind of sealed it for me. But your hair is very recognizable, Pav.” He laughed a little, finally meeting her gaze. He apologizes for not telling her, saying he wanted to keep her safe. She’s understanding and give him a small peck on the cheek, it’s hard for him to hide the blush on his face.

He tells her that he’s worried about the black hole that appeared in the city today and that he’s going to to find answers. All of a sudden, there’s a shaking in her room. A few things start to levitate slowly off the ground, they look at each other confused. A portal opens, suddenly Gwen appears. Pavitr is relieved, Gayatri is still confused but relaxes when she sees her boyfriend is calm, he tells her not to worry and that she’s a friend.

“Miles is in trouble, Pav. We need your help. Please.” Gwen says. Behind her appears Hobie and Peter B with Mayday. Pavitr nods and turns to Gayatri. “I have to go. I’ll be back soon, I promise,” he says. He leans down and gives her a tight hug. “Be safe,” she whispers in his ear. He pulls back and smiles, “I always am.” He plants a small kiss on her forehead and heads towards Gwen and the portal.

Hobie, Peter B., and Gwen all walk through the portal. Pavitr turns around one last time before stepping through. “I love you,” he says, and disappears along with the portal.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Listen, this isn’t the prettiest writing or set up, but I would love something like this as it feels like a parallel to ATSV and Gwen’s story and I wanted to self indulge 😭