#by they it means the player and Frisk reacting

[thesnowflake18]

Help what does this mEAN?!?!

[inbarfink]

One common Undertale misconception that really frustrates me is when Sans is portrayed with a strong innate sense for RESETs and alternative timelines. Like, that he remembers the RESET timelines better than the other characters who only have occasional feelings of deja vu or even that he can sense when a timeline is RESET.

And that’s, like, almost the opposite of the actual text of the game. While pretty much every main character can have slightly-different dialogue in a Not-True-RESET, especially if the Player had previously befriended them, based on the idea that they have lingering memories/feelings from before the RESET - 

Sans has no real dialogue changes based on this conceit. All of his changes are based around noticing Frisk has different reactions based on their memories of the precious timelines. 

Other characters do also make observations like that about Frisk, like Mettaton and Toriel. But Sans is distinctive because this is the only way his comments change between RESETs and there are a lot of them from him.

Because that is what really frustrates me about this misconception. People mention it as one more thing that makes Sans cool - but the actual truth is far more badass. Sans is one of the people in the Underground who remembers RESETs the least. I think memory-resistance to RESETs is probably tied to Determination. Flowey, the second-most Determined person in the Underground after Frisk, can remember everything perfectly.

Everyone else has some vague feelings and deja vus. And Sans, he’s the least motivated person in the Underground - both in the sense he’s lazy and in the sense he’s fucking depressed.

That probably means he has very little Determination. Thus, he doesn’t remember anything that happens between RESETs.

And yet, he is still the character most aware of them. Because he has the technological know-how to read and analyze timelines.

And because he has the observation and analytical skill to notice a RESET from other people’s reactions and behavior. Whatever it’s Papyrus thinking he recognizes someone or Frisk’s behavior implying that they know something they shouldn’t have. Sans main RESET-related skill is just being able to identify these moments and come to the correct conclusion about them. And with that he manages to be the most aware character in the entire Underground.

Like, the one point where it might seem like Sans remembers something from a previous Timeline is the Fake Spare scene during his boss battle. 

But it’s all pretend. Unlike the previous lines from other characters that I mentioned, this dialogue plays even if the Murder Route is the first time the player touched the game. Sans isn’t remembering anything in this scene. But he makes an educated guess that the Immoral Time God probably tried using their powers for good at first, so they were likely ‘friends’ in a previous timeline. And in most cases, his guess is right on the money - tricking many players into thinking this is another case of the game actually reacting to their past actions.

And as always, Sans can only tell if his lil’ trick worked or not based on the expression of the Player Character.

Arguably, Sans even uses his lack of Determination and cross-RESET memory to his advantage in his boss battle. After all, the whole point of this fight isn’t to kill the Player - Sans understands this is impossible. This is a war of attrition, trying to get the Player so frustrated and annoyed with the unfair fight that they just ragequit or RESET the Timeline. And this war of the Player’s patience versus Sans’ stamina and will is infinitely easier for him when he doesn’t actually perceive all the Player’s previous attempts against him.

Like, for the Player this might be the billion time they go up against him, they’re aware of some of his patterns and tricks now but they’re probably also frustrated and angry and exhausted. Meanwhile, from Sans’ POV, this is still the first time this is happening. He knows it’s not from the Player’s behavior and Frisk’s expression - but he doesn’t feel it like the Player does. 

He doesn’t feel the frustration and repetition of the endless stalemate. So he’s always as fresh as a daisy no matter how rugged the Player is getting.

And that’s part of why Sans is so cool in the first place, like, in general. He’s technically the weakest person in the Underground, lacking in every standard evaluation of power in the setting - no ATK, no DEF, no HP, no DETERMINATION. But he’s darn clever enough to overcome these weaknesses and even use them in ways that make them into strengths, enough to be one of the most dangerous and most aware guys in this whole setting.

Sans can’t remember anything, and that makes him awesome.

[the-meme-monarch]

Have you ever thought about how SomeStrange!Frisk and Knight!Chara would react to the player/Kris doing Snowgrave?

i don't know if chara would Care Much since they don't know kris or have any connection to the SOUL ? since knight chara is From the deltarune universe. maybe it'd be mad just in general that you went around killing* people, additionally people it maybe feels responsible for, assuming it opened that fountain. Frisk However Would Be So Pissed Probably. they came specifically FROM a true pacifist ending, you DID all the right things you GOT the happy ending, WHAT ARE YOU DOING !!!!!! THIS ISN'T YOU !!!!!! wait fuck actually hold on I had a thought. imagine they have kinda phantom memories of the no mercy run. like surely you didn't actually do that right. i mean, you reset. it's like it never happened haha. i barely remember. they won't either if you reset. you'll reset this right. i can forgive you. the story's not over yet i can still forgive you

[akanemnon]

ALRIGHT, over the last week I've been binge-reading this entire series from start to finish, and I've gotta say you've got me hooked. Love where it's going so far! With that in mind, I've got a couple questions I'm curious about. No worries if they're in spoiler-territory and can't be shared, though!

1: so, since Kris and Frisk can see UI elements like their inventory, does this mean they could see the save menu and its save data, too? And if so, did Kris learn anything of interest from it?

And 2: I stumbled across a past ask that mentioned Kris's player has a similarly playful gremlin disposition... Does this mean Kris basically had a mutual prank war going with them? Were there any particularly funny moments where they messed with each other for a joke? Because ngl the idea of Kris deciding to fight God and win via prank war is probably a lot funnier to me than it should be.

Hey, thank you so much! Super happy you're enjoying the comic so much!! As for your questions...

The two of them are definitely aware of their save files. At the start of Deltarune when you encounter your first save point you can actually see that Kris already has a save file that they created on their own. But you end up overwriting it with your name that you typed in during the vessel creation section. As for the menu interface thing, they probably see the whole layout in a kind of a daydream like setting. For when the Player turns of the game and does something else. It would be just a second for them, while in reality it is much longer.

Kris sees their Player as a (so far) benevolent bully. The Player hasn't made them do anything bad per se, but Kris is clearly reacting much stronger to having someone take control of their body. This is most likely due to actually having experienced a normal life before being possessed (unlike Frisk, who doesn't remember it). In the game you see them manipulating the Player's choices either by the tone of their voice, or how they sometimes look away or close their eyes when the Player wants to look at something that relates to their family. Kris has their own way with dealing with bullies. This is more apparent when you read through Noelle's secret blog posts that go deeper into how Susie used to try and bully them.

[howlsofbloodhounds]

I have the next question.

I remember you once talking about how Killer would investigate SOULS or something like that? And now that he has access to the entire multiverse, and a whole lot of info, would he find out about the existance of the Players? What would he do with this info? And if in an hypothetical scenario it is revealed to him that his whole existance is wholy due to ones curiousity and toying with the world, what would be his reaction.

Yeah, it’s canon that Killer steals, bargains for, and studies SOULs. He said something about studying their codes and that’s it. He also studies monster dust and human blood. (He even asked Underswap!Chara if he could cut off their arm and study it.)

I’m assuming he’s trying to figure out away to basically deprogram himself. (Which is very dangerous and life threatening and something he definitely shouldn’t be trying to do alone and without any support or experience.)

As for the Player, it seems Killer became aware of us at some point already. When asked how he was like as a Sans, he states he used to just be a normal Sans, and ends with something along the lines of “you are the reason I’m like this.” And when asked if he ever gets tired, he despairs (with Red text), saying, “tired? What do you mean, tired? You wanted this. You all wanted this!”

And in the comic where Nightmare chokes Killer unconscious, Killer’s advice he gave his Boss was basically along the lines of “you have to find the Universe where you are considered the strongest.” Although he seems to be confusing Creators for Players, here.

In the Swap vs Killer comic, it was shown that Underswap!Chara immediately knew what Killer’s intentions were towards Swap because they could feel a sharp pain in their SOUL—painful enough to bring tears to their eyes and make them terrified for Sans’ safety. They were able to easily see or picture the red strings of Determination coming from Killer’s SOUL and wrapping around his limbs.

So all this is to say, Killer seems to experience the same type of connection to the Player that Frisk and Chara does—through Determination. And as such, the Charas and Frisks of the Multiverse are able to sense his intentions, and he’s likely able to do the same with them and possibly even the Player somewhat.

So Killer was possibly always able to sense something within him, that felt both him and distinctly not him. Perhaps we feel like Chara to him—confusing, terrifying, yet always there and oddly comforting in a twisted way. Yet, still, Killer seems prone to absolute despair when a Player asks him if this what he really wants or how he feels about actions. If an Asker/Player ever blamed him, or called him irredeemable and evil, he reacted with apathy and justification—“it’s not my fault they are weak” or “okay.” All of these text were written in red, too.

He seems to feel a mixture of despair, apathy, confusion, and helplessness. Even a strange sense of hurt when confronted in a certain way. Makes me think of the lyric in the song What Could Have Been, the one that goes, “I am the monster you created, you ripped out all my parts” and “why don’t you love who I am?”

Strange moments of “you wanted this, you made me, you wanted me, why do you hate me?” Like a child, wondering why their parent doesn’t seem to want them or like them when the child believes they were only doing what was asked and expected of them. All that said, his exact views and opinions of the Player is likely effected by what Stage his SOUL is in.

[itsubear]

Ok since yesterday I started talking about Dusttale here's another thought I had for a while:

Murder can make the human lose determination till their save files don't work anymore in a certain area.

However it's also stated that this doesn't completely limit the human's powers (it makes sense to me, the human having a full DT soul probably can't lose that much DT to stop being able to use those abilities completely)

Now let's take the often used idea of ​​"the player is the real killer, while Frisk is just their puppet/vessel, but Frisk still has their own thoughts and personality".

Imagine a timeline where Frisk is actually able to think, but is only a spectator as the player uses their body to kill everyone.

Imagine if THEY lose almost all their determination after so much despair, making it impossible for the player to save ALL their files.

What would happen? How would they feel? Would they react the same way Chara reacts to a genocide? Would they be able to do something?

This isn't a Dusttale theory 'cause this scenario would change the meaning of Dusttale itself. However I wanted to talk about this, so-- here it is :D

I did my best but plz tell me if I got anything wrong, I don't wanna spread misinformation!

Also sorry if someone already thought of this-

[havockingboo]

Question; How does Frisk react to Existential AU!Papyrus? I mean, if there is no player controlling Frisk and everything (including the Genocide route) was entirely their decision, wouldn't they be extremely intrigued by this new difference? If I were Frisk, I'd be resetting left and right and constantly attempting to get Papyrus to react differently. Just a thought for more angst, but Papyrus should definitely be more careful with his actions. Don't want Frisk to get any ideas after all. They don't exactly have a moral code that they follow. 🥰

They have no reaction to what is happening around them. Without the player, they just stand around, doing nothing, and they will not react or attempt to do anything, because they have no desire to ‘want’ or in other words, ‘ACT’. It’s the Player’s decisions and desire to continue resetting and wanting for different outcomes to happen. It’s the player who is curious, resetting over and over to get different endings, reactions, outcomes, etc.

I’m most likely reading this ask wrong but I’m keeping this inside the au then anything outside of it so yeah! Frisk is just…the body for the player to control, as it’s always been

[aikoiya]

What if humanity and the surface monsters somehow got Alphys’ camera footage of the Ebott Kingdom all attacking and trying to destroy Frisk as well as harvest their soul?… What if half of the Kingdom (including all the main characters) were thrown in a special Anti-Magic Prison, because of all their crimes (child murder + attempted murder + attempted war/genocide)?… What if Frisk gets adopted by Monster Kid’s family, while this is happening?

And what if the mother of one of the 6 dead humans was actually a monster (aka the child was adopted)?

Toriel: I understand why Asgore and some of the others are on trial… But why am I also on trial? I didn’t murder those children! I haven’t done anything wrong!

Old Monster Lady: Queen Toriel?

Toriel: Yes?

Old Monster Lady: I just found out, that all the previous humans that came before Frisk, had died by your husband’s hands and YOU KNEW IT! You knew what King Asgore and his Kingdom was gonna do to those children and their souls! You knew he wanted to start another horrible war! But you let him hurt those innocent humans anyway? You knew all those things! But still my boy is dead now. And there’s nothing you can do about it. My boy is dead, because of YOU and YOUR HUSBAND… I wanted you to know that.

[Old Monster Lady walks away, with tears in her eyes…]

Asgore: I’m sorry, Toriel. She’s wrong. What happened wasn’t your fault.

Toriel: …Yes, it was.

Out of curiosity, how do you think Asgore + Toriel + Papyrus + Undyne + Alphys + Mettaton + Sans would all react if some of the previous dead humans that Asgore destroyed… were actually adopted by surface-monster families (like how Asgore and Toriel adopted Chara)?

How would they feel about realizing that their horrible actions had ironically hurt monsterkind as well as humanity?

How would they feel about realizing that they’re honestly no better than the Human Village that destroyed Asriel a long time ago? 💔💔💔 

—

Aikoiya: Hmm… This is a tough one… Well, for one, they’d likely be blindsided by the fact that there were still monsters living on the surface at all. Then add to that the fact that they, as far as I can tell from your submission, just openly live in harmony with humanity. It’d be quite the shock.

Afterall, there was a ton of speciesist propaganda going around the Underground. The only real way I could see this being possible is if Asgore & Toriel had either not been born yet during the Monster-Human War or they’d been too young to remember much of it.

Plus, there’s a decent amount of evidence to suggest that a lot more happened to cause the war to take place. That the monsters might not have been as innocent as the player was led to believe.

I go over this in post of mine from a while back.

Anyway, in such a situation as this being the case, that would suggest that it was actually Asgore’s predecessor who fought in the war, but we don’t know anything about them, so most of this is just speculation on my part.

If this was true, it’s very possible that the only ones aware that there were other monsters out there not living in the Underground would be those who’d lived through it & the only one that we know of for certain would be Gerson. Meanwhile, all the newer monsters would be under the mistaken impression that they were the only ones for various reasons.

Despite the fact that, if that were the case, then it would mean that humanity had exterminated everyone else, which makes no sense considering the fact that they were trapped in a giant magic prison rather than killed off. The very fact that the monsters of the Underground are alive to debate the idea makes mockery of the possibility. Either monsters are too self-absorbed to think on it or there are those that bring this up, but the rest of the Underground largely looks down on them as conspiracy theorists. (I personally like the latter more.)

As for why Gerson wouldn’t say anything about this, I’m not sure. It’s possible that there was some sort of gag order by someone higher up, but that’s a theory for another time.

Asgore… would likely be horrified. After all, he put his own people through the same anguish that he, himself, went through so long ago. Like I’ve said before, I see him as the type to take the guilt onto himself & accept the punishment of… basically being a cereal child murderer. I don’t wanna think about how long he’d be in though. I mean, he’s got 6 counts of 1st degree murder (25 years to life each), 1 count of conspiracy to commit murder (10 years to life), as well as conspiracy to commit genocide (20 years to life). So, that’s 180 years to life right there & that's lowballing it.

Toriel, I see feeling insanely guilty for the exact reason you stated above. I don’t think she did what she did purposefully, more so unconsciously, but it was still, inevitably, wrong & against the law. So, in the end, it really wouldn't matter unless her defense attorney happened to be a member of the Wright Anything Agency. In the end, hers would be more a crime of negligence. So, she’s more likely to be charged with 6 counts of misprision of felony & accessory after the fact. While misprision is a misdemeanor & prison time for it is only 3 years per. Multiply that by 6-7 (I assume) & that adds up to at least 18 years. Add to that the 6 counts of accessory to felony, which is lowballed at 1 year, but the maximum of 15-30 years each depending on where you are, that adds up to 24-180 plus 18, so 42-198 years. That isn’t an insignificant amount. Then, there’s the fact that she knew about Asgore’s intention to commit literal genocide, so that’s complicacy in genocide, which adds, at most, ½ the term of imprisonment for the original crime as far as I’m seeing. This also technically counts for all the monsters involved.

Papyrus… I feel like he’d be the least affected. He’s never seen to be the particularly malicious type, so I see him being more confused, but at the same time elated. I’m not sure if he knew about the intent to commit genocide. He’d at least get assault charges. If nothing else, I got the impression that he would accept that he did something wrong & own up to it once he knew that he did something wrong. As such, I see him being one of the only ones who might be able to manage to get a lighter sentence, possibly. That could just be me, but that's what I think.

Undyne… Yeesh… I very much think her entire worldview would be flipped on its head. She only ever really befriends Frisk for petty reasons & she was just outright bigoted from the moment you meet her. Sure, she was all-in on Frisk after the fact, but I, personally, can't really be sure how much of that is genuine & how much is her being committed to proving that she can, which would definitely be something brought up by a prosecutor to cast doubt on her motives. Not to mention, she was all-in with the genocide idea for years. So, that’s aiding & abetting, conspiracy... Gosh, I’m getting a headache…

I’m not really sure what Alphys would think. I mean, she’d be happy that they weren’t alone, but at the same time… It’s possible that she thought of this as a possibility, but either did not speak up for one reason or another, or entirely dismissed the idea as impossible. Either way, she alone has committed several crimes against both humanity & monsterkind. I mean, it's likely that monsterkind is counted amongst the ranks of people, & as such, she’d have definitely violated the laws of the Geneva Convention & human experimentation, not just against the human souls, but also the monsters who became the amalgamates. In fact, due to monsters openly being part of Surface life, it's likely that both races were waiting for the Underground monsters to come up, likely believing that, at most 6 of the missing children had fallen down there as if all had, then why hadn't they surfaced yet. I could see the Surface monsters hoping that the Underground monsters would opt for mercy, only to feel uncertain when only 1 human child surfaced with them, then horrified to learn what had taken place.

Actually, the Surface monsters might end up being the most audibly upset over it.

As for Sans… I don’t think he’d process it very well at first. Oh, he wouldn’t make a big deal about it on the outside, but inside, I see him having severe cognitive dissonance over it. I just… I see him as being very anti-human one way or another. Maybe not outwardly, but the way he acts in the game towards Frisk, as well as the fact that he is, in some way or another, aware of the RESETs to some degree, yet doesn't do anything about it until far too late, suggests at the very least a level of scorn.

I’m starting to get a bit of a headache, so I’m not gonna do Mettaton here.

Either way, there’d be this cloud of discomfort that would descend upon the Underground monsters, though not necessarily the outright DOOM that would be appropriate for this situation because, really only Alphys might actually have some idea of just how effed they were due to having watched anime & even she wouldn’t really have a full idea unless she were the sort to play Ace Attorney games or some such. I don’t really see many monsters completely understanding what the big deal is because, as I assume, the monsters were implied to have been sealed during a time where monsters & humans mostly used old school weaponry such as spears as shown at the beginning of the game. Not guns. And considering how willing they were to commit genocide (again, I can’t let this go) & the fact that we don’t really see any prisons or dungeons in the Underground, I’m not even sure that Underground monsters have laws against murder. So, it's likely that the discomfort would mostly be due to concern with how they'd be seen & not from fear of retribution. As such, monsterkind would definitely be in for a rude awakening.

Dear God, almost all the monsters in the Underground could get jailtime or juvie! I only see Monster Kid possibly getting out of it, maybe. Do we even see anyone in the game who says they don’t want this to happen?? Like, obviously those who tried to prevent it & acted out in defiance of it might be given leave as it was literally impossible for them to report the crime so they could get some leeway, but all those who sung out in favor like Bratty & Catty?? Their asses would be in jail.

Though, how would a court even try those that said nothing such as Grillby & Fuku Fire?

Please, keep in mind that I don’t study law. This is all based on Google searches.

Edit: I just realized something, though... Why did Asgore wait for another human after the last one? Unless I'm mistaken, wasn't Chara's soul shown to be in the DT Extractor in the True Lab? If so, then the monsters technically had all 7 souls.

Why did Asgore wait? Unless, either he wanted to be defeated someday to keep from having to go through with what he promises or he actively didn't know about Chara's soul still being around & thought that it'd simply turned to dust with Asriel's body? But that doesn't make sense, he'd have seen it... Or he refused to use their soul to kill humanity?

Hmm... That never occurred to me before now. Might wanna look into that...

[dragonflame32]

Here's another post on the AU nobody asked for but that exists nonetheless.

Soulless!Frisk/Chara (in this post I will call them FC for short but this ISN'T their canon name) are literally made of determination. How is this possible? Well, in MY vision of Undertale the soul isn't the culmination of your being, but a mere recipient for whatever magic/trait your SPIRIT produces. It still is very important, since you need it to feel emotions and, in a monster's case, form your body. That explains how Flowey and Chara's spirit are possible, and how the other human souls still intervene in your favor in Omega Flowey's battle and how they keep producing their traits despite being dead. They aren't really dead in all three cases. Monsters' spirits pass in their dust when they die, that explains the reason behind the ceremony of putting the dust of someone dead on an object to conserve their essence. Also for me spiritual determination and physical DETERMINATION are two different things, the physical DETERMINATION being the one produced by the SPIRIT. So, I already specified in the previous post that FC's DETERMINATION condensed in physical matter to form a new body, thus creating a particular relation between the SPIRIT and the body. That's why they risk to explode at any moment. Since the Player inserted a special command in the game before playing this run (to see if anything would change) that made Asriel's last attack fatal FC's code is completely destroyed, so their DETERMINATION, to survive, reacts like this and makes the game crash. Just a mechanism of defense against something that shouldn't have happened in the first place.

In this post I wanted to clarify these things, since I feel like people would miss them normally and they are important to understand the story and how FC works. If you have any questions about anything that regards this the ask box is open, and please notify me about the weak points of my theories because it helps me to improve them. I thank you for reaching the end of this post, even just reading it all means a lot to me because I know I tend to ramble when I write and I appreciate the time and energies you spent on reading until the end. So thank you infinitely, and feel free to just skip through this if you don't like my story, but if you do happen to enjoy this, follow me here on Tumblr and check out the real story on Quotev.

Bye!

[eat-a-dicker]

can we get a text on undertale's white feminist politics please

originally i had reached out to someone for comment on undertale but after further investigation i have concluded that this person's experience with the creator is not relevant to the development of undertale

i am also going to emphasize for clarity that toby fox created undertale when they were associated with andrew hussie, making it from andrew hussie's basement. there are ideological positions in undertale that have not aged as well as they should have, presumably due to this association and therefore should be treated as the creator's feelings about the world around them at the time.

undertale has a very strange and somewhat unhealthy relationship with death and morality. nowhere in undertale does it really mention that frisk as a child, really cannot be held responsible for the actions they may potentially commit due to being a child. and likewise, committing a murder of any kind, regardless of the circumstances, has the game place a very strange moral judgement on the player. "all murder is bad!" no, not all murder is bad, and i realize that this may be a controversial statement to people living in a first world country, but the fact of the matter is that death, killing and murder has a lot more complicated sociological circumstance to it that this game is unwilling to talk about. and it's just weirdly vilified like babby's first psychology thesis. people die all the fucking time but it's how we choose to react and treat the situation that makes the cessation of life have that meaning and the monsters quite frankly SHOULD understand this, but they don't?

undyne is a cop. papyrus (i fucking love papyrus but he absolutely deserves this criticism) wants to be a cop. this didn't age well. it fucking died on arrival even then and playing the game today with this in mind, given that you're supposed to like this characters is. yikes. there just seem to be a lot of weird moral decisions in regards to what counts as "bad behavior" and actual moral blindsights this game has that make replaying it like being in the house of a very sheltered person.

also alphys experiments on people and once you learn this it's kind of fucking impossible to be charmed by her, because the game is so focused on trying to make her likeable, charming and quirky that it feels like a disingenuous representation of the kind of person she is, because in all honesty she kinda deserves to get her teeth kicked in

asgore killed children but everyone is kind of missing the fact that he's doing it to free the monsters from prison. honestly i think asgore is the ultimate representation of the game's hypocritical stances on what counts as a justified moral argument because as he demonstrates simply by existing, morality does not exist in black and white lines, which the game, seems to always fail to consistently portray. the execution with undertale's bizarre politics makes it a confusing mess of selfish politique that have not made the game age well in retrospect.

[officialambassadorfrisk]

By all means, hold a grudge, Chara. It's about the only thing you can do! I and so many other across across millions of versions of your world have gone in and killed everyone just to see what would happen. And yes we saw their expressions, heard their last words, and it was amazing, and heartbreaking, and sometimes pretty funny, actually.

It made us feel something, it is interesting, and that means that people like me will come back for the experience over...and over...and over...and if it weren't for that, well, I don't think you would exist right now, on this blog, talking with all of us.

I've not only killed everyone in the underground, I've watched several other people do it as well, to see how they react to the events unfolding, and of course to experience it again. It's always a nice feather in a player's cap to say they beat sans in battle. It's quite the challenge.

And the most you can really do about it, the consequences you talk about? Scare us, and yes, you spooked me pretty good in the end, and put us in gamer time out for 10 minutes. Even the consequences you try to make stick do not. They are easily removed by deleting a single file, and then it's a clean slate ready to play with again. And, in fact, in your attempt to enforce consequences on us players, you convinced a significant number of us that actually, you were the one possessing Frisk to kill. Isn't that rich?

Some of us, including me, played out the best timeline, befriending everyone and setting monsterkind free...only to to turn around and destroy them. It is sort of sick, isn't it? But it was fun, and it was Very. Very. Interesting.

You should watch footage of people playing the game, sometime. It's like thousands of snuff films of everyone you know and love.

And the best part? Killing everyone in the game has no bearing on my moral character among my peers and my society at large. Because it. Is. A. Game.

-💖

. . .

You're sick.

[askfallenroyalty]

I don't think it's too late to establish voting again but with chara, self set rules can be broken also it'd be really cool to have chara trying to fight us off and it would feel right having that conflict between us and the characters if you wanted to bring back voting power!

// ahhh i've been thinking over it and the replies and basically: i'm not going to add the Choice. I feel I'd have to set up Chara being controlled earlier, as before we had Frisk and Kris but never Chara before. in this version of the story, it wouldn't make sense to do so now.

[has alt id]

so like: I THINK we're controlling Chara. We name them, we're with them if you return to the game to True Reset (notably, Frisk is absent then).

Like Kris in DR, Frisk has some autonomy outside our control: reacting to reloads by being bored, asking Gerson unprompted, offering one half of the choices ingame (potentially, I like to think so because the choices usually are opposites, except in true pacifist "let's rp!" where both kids are in agreement)

Anyway logically (at least to me) We control Chara who uses Frisk's body to do things. We're sharing the SOUL and body, Frisk is dragged through it by extension.

When Chara is separated from Frisk's SOUL -and in fact, only begins to grow their own once they connect with the Dreemurrs. (meaning, like how Asriel has a temporary monster body in canon, so did Chara. meeting with the Dreemurrs is what made it permanent since they started growing SOULs. if the player didn't choose for them to meet, both would of turned into flowers.)

So logicallyyyyy I think. Because we're connected to Frisk's SOUL, that means the choices are stuck to Frisk despite Chara no longer being connected. BUT Chara is still Red, and only truly severs the connection once they create a new body when Toriel accepts them.

THUS??? IMPLYING,,, Chara is still connected to Frisk! Even without sharing a SOUL and Body, (and thus can't narrate/read minds) Chara still is connected to them and the player yeah?? ON some level they're sharing DT or something because otherwise this plot thread doesn't really make sense,,,

[stainedglassthreads]

I think how Noelle and Kris react to the Snowgrave route directly parallels how Chara and Frisk react to the No Mercy route. 

Elaborations below cut. 

It’s easiest to compare Noelle and Chara in this analysis, because they are the two most easiest observed. 

As we proceed down the Snowgrave route, we see Noelle frantically trying to cope with what we, the Player, are making her do through Kris. We see her blacking out after getting the ring and completing the puzzles. We see her justifying the commands as just Kris helping her ‘grow stronger’, and how growing stronger is a good thing, right? Her friend is helping her. She should be grateful. And eventually it reaches the point where she meets someone else she knows, her own classmate, and at first can’t see him as anything but an enemy. And even if Berdly’s really annoying, she tries her hardest to resist using Snowgrave-- but she can’t hold out against our commands forever. 

We don’t see Chara’s corruption so clearly. Only rarely in the game do they slip up and describe their true feelings or actions. But we sure fucking see the end result of the path Noelle was going down, when Chara finally confronts us in No Mercy. 

Chara straight up tells us the reason they were killing. Not out of hatred for monsters, or bloodlust, or a desire for revenge, or a desire to end the world. 

Because you, the Player, told them through your actions and commands that the meaning of life is to grow more powerful, no matter the cost, no matter what you must sacrifice. To the point where they say they ARE the feeling of whenever a number goes up. You took this child who loved monsters so much they painfully died so monsters could be free, and made them incapable of seeing their family as anything more or less than ‘the enemy to be defeated.’ 

And of course... Chara calls themself the demon who comes when you call its name. 

Who is the only one of Kris’ friends who comes when you whisper their name? 

Frisk and Kris are harder characters to track. Frisk isn’t very present even in the True Pacifist Run. All we truly know about them is they’re determined(or maybe it’s our own determination), they’re nosy(or maybe it’s our own curiosity), they’re not a murderer, they’re a child who uses they/them pronouns, and their name is Frisk. 

It’s much easier to get a grasp on Kris’ character. Frisk is a newcomer to the Underground, and no one knows what actions are normal or strange for them, but in sharp contrast, Kris grew up in Hometown and many people comment on Kris’ actions in the game being strange for them. They’re usually far more asocial, and in Chapter 2 we get a lot more of their personality and opinions as characters respond to how Kris says or does something. For example, it’s remarked how enthusiastically Kris tells the Queen they want to perish, how unwillingly Kris says they want to join Berdly, and how after the Spamton NEO fight, they either say ‘no, I’m fine’ very strained, or shout that yes, they’re not fine. 

On to the parallel, it’s harder to see than what happens to Noelle and Chara, but Kris and Frisk both seem to become more withdrawn and numb, completely shutting other people out as Snowgrave and No Mercy go on. Whether you believe Kris is a bad person or not, it’s been made very clear they enjoy their adventures in the Dark World and care for their friends. If you drop the Balls of Junk(implied to be their Dark World inventory), they feel bitter, and if you drop the Cards that are Lancer and Roulxs, they struggle to defy your actions and catch them again. But in Snowgrave, when Ralsei tries inviting them to imagine what’s happening between Susie and Noelle, perhaps so Kris and Ralsei can speak privately like in Chapter 1... they don’t respond. They just seem to totally ignore him, and not at least humor him like they would on a Pacifist route. Likewise, when they go to fight the new final boss, Kris must go and fight Spamton NEO totally alone, without waiting for Susie and Ralsei to come and assist them. 

Frisk, as stated previously, is a much more difficult character to observe. The Underground doesn’t know how they act normally at all, and it’s not made clear that we, Frisk, and Chara are very separate people until very late in the game. But there is one very noticeable detail that says a lot about both Frisk and Chara throughout different routes. 

“It’s you, Frisk!”/”It’s me, Chara.” 

You can get the narrator, Chara, to remark ‘It’s you, Frisk!’ only at the very end of a True Pacifist Run, but so long as you’re not on a No Mercy run, they will keep remarking that ‘It’s you!’ or ‘Despite everything, it’s still you’. Even if you’ve killed half the Underground. 

Only when you seek power above all else, does Frisk... vanish. Leaving just Chara. 

So what happened to Frisk? 

When Chara confronts you at the very end of No Mercy, there are a number of parallels to Flowey confronting you at the end of True Pacifist. In both cases, a soulless Dreemurr child talks to you about the end you’ve reached, talks about your actions and their result, and asks you not to play this route again-- or in Flowey’s case, asks you to delete his memory if you do so. Both can acknowledge that you’ve probably or definitely played this route before... but there is one interesting difference. 

Flowey refers to Frisk as a separate person, and implores you to ‘let Frisk live their own life’ 

Chara... never mentions Frisk at all. Only talking about you. Your choices. Your Determination. Your power. You are above consequences. Your Soul. Your choice to Erase. 

...So what happened to Frisk? 

By the end of Snowgrave, Kris is still there. At least a little. When calling out to Ralsei and Susie during the Spamton NEO fight, it says ‘Kris called out for help... but nobody came.’ When we use Noelle, it emphasizes ‘You whisper Noelle’s name.’ 

Kris is still there. 

For now. 

But if things had continued... would they end up the same as Frisk? 

Do monsters in the Soulless Pacifist route ever truly meet Frisk? Or has Frisk locked themself away so thoroughly after being made to watch their own body slaughter an entire race, in an attempt to shut it all out and protect themself? Chara was thoroughly corrupted by the time of the Soulless Pacifist ending, it’s clear... but is Frisk so used to just being treated as an empty vessel that they let it happen? 

‘Your choices don’t matter’ is a recurring theme in Deltarune, and it’s clear this also affects Kris... but did Frisk’s choices ever truly matter, either? 

[krispdreemurr]

thinking abt player in undertale made me remember my idle thought that like. okay. noelle in snowgrave obviously parallels no mercy chara; in order to cope with and justify the ultimately senseless actions she's being made to take, she comes up with a narrative where it's about making her stronger, about making her more able to stand on her own. it's a brittle and fragile thing and she's quick to lash out when 'kris' pushes her in ways that don't fit her justification, but it's the framework she has. see on chara's end the way they get So Fucking Mad when the player says they don't want to destroy the world, when chara realizes this wasn't a clean act of mercy killing but you trying to eke amusement out of their world. the framework of 'becoming strong' in order to cleanly handle their problems is all noelle and chara have to keep them going thru a tragedy

but i think kris is a parallel too - to frisk. frisk is, like, barely There in no mercy, i hear you cry, and like. exactly. frisk sees what's going on and shuts down, steps back. chara takes control of their voice and narration and life, with you in control of chara, and frisk entirely checks out. it's an abdication of responsibility for their body and their actions, an attempt to 'cope' by simply... no longer being present.

compare with kris, who's more notable by continuing to be a separate physical person who people talk to, but they like. they spend most of the run behind their shield, just saying whatever words you feed into their mouth. after the berdly fight, when ralsei tries to encourage them to think about susie and noelle, they just... don't react at all, no dialogue, no body language, nothing. standing there in total silence, refusing to participate. it's not hard to read them as just like. shutting down entirely, checking out. you want to use them as a vessel for this? fine, but they're not going to be aware for any of it any more.

they finally near the end of the route find it in themselves to cry out for their friends (possibly wordlessly, and at the very least they definitely can't meaningfully imagine much more than a sort of primal 'just their face' for the act)... but it's pointless. it means nothing. their friends don't hear them any more. they're gone.

the only person who comes is listening to someone else's voice.

[undertale-data]

[Image Description: An Undertale chat box that has “WHY FANS LOVE UNDERTALE” at its center. Next to it are a line chart and an Egg from the Dating Hub on its left, and a CRIME measurer (also from the Dating Hub) on its right. End I.D.]

[Image Description: a pie chart titled, “LEVEL OF LOVE FOR UNDERTALE.” The textbox on the top right reads, “On a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being the least and 10 being the highest, how much do fans enjoy Undertale?” From the top going clockwise, 12 or 0% chose 5 and below; 23 or 1% chose 6; 98, or 4%, chose 7; 325, or 12%, chose 8; 529, or 20%, chose 9; and 1664, or 63%, chose 10. End I.D.]

It’s clear from all of the data analyzed so far that fans who took the time to answer our survey love Undertale. It is unlikely that they would have taken the time to answer so many questions if they had not, and even less likely that they would have come across our survey in the first place. Naturally, it comes as no surprise that 63% of our responders gave their love for Undertale a score of ten out of ten. 95% gave their love for Undertale a score of eight or higher, and only 12 responders responded with five or below, a number so small that their responses had to be lumped together to be visible on the pie chart. Of those, only 3 responders gave their love for Undertale a score of 1, and based on those responders’ other answers, it is likely that they were only intending to troll. We are very fortunate that the vast majority of responders took the survey seriously, enough so that responses like this are barely a blip in the data.

Now, for our final analysis post of the event, we will delve into the reasons that fans love Undertale so dearly.

(Essay and highlights under the cut.)

There have been countless essays on the impact that Undertale has had on people’s lives. I can hardly add more on the subject than what has already been said, but I hope this summary can provide a brief overview of what stood out among the over two thousand answers given in response to this survey. That said, due to the sheer volume of answers, I could not read every single one in depth—however, I did skim all of them, and some that stood out or were representative of several responses have been highlighted below. If you would like to see what every fan who consented to share their response had to say, you may view the full list of responses here. Note that these responses have not been edited in any way. This document may take a long time to load, as it is over 100 pages long.

(Warnings for mentions of suicidal thoughts in the following essay.)

Several responders loved the theme of choices mattering in Undertale. Whether people played the pacifist, merciless, or neutral routes, they enjoyed how the game reacted to their actions. For some, it even made them consider their own morality. One touching response explained the impact that the theme of mercy made on them. “I realized that Mercy isn't something that's given to those who deserve it. Flowey didn't deserve it. I don't deserve it myself. Shoot, we ALL need Mercy in our lives.” Many fans left similar comments about how the themes of Undertale made them better people.

Undertale changed how its fans treat others, and it also changed how fans treat themselves. The theme of staying determined and the messages of hope in the game were a light to a very large portion of fans. I cannot list all of the fans who said that Undertale helped them out of a dark place, or that they would not be alive if not for Undertale. “DETERMINATION became a metaphor for not killing myself at a really rough time in my life and I’ll always cherish that. Undertale isn’t afraid to go to really dark places but at the same time holds on so tight to its hope.”

Undertale brought fans together in unexpected ways. Some said they met friends or significant others through the fandom. “I wouldn't have met my now husband without Undertale,” one fan said. A different fan who is non-native English speaking mentioned that the game and the fan community helped them to learn English.

It would be impossible to discuss Undertale without mentioning the fan community. Whether for good or bad, many responders mentioned the fandom in their responses. Overall the feelings towards the fandom seem positive, though many made references to “toxic” parts of the fandom without specifying which parts they consider toxic. Others rejected the idea of toxicity in fandom. One response said: “[SLAMS FIST ON DESK] I KNOW MOST PEOPLE SAY THE FANDOM IS TOXIC AND CRINGE OR WHATEVER BUT OH MY GOD. The Undertale fandom, both the UTMV and the actual UT fandom, has been so much fun to be a part of. I've met countless friends because of our shared interest in something related to the game! The art people create can be breathtaking and so inspirational, and the fanfics are so so good!! I've seen people write incredible things for this fandom and it's what made me continue writing!”

One thing that makes the Undertale fandom unique is the way it embraces various AUs. Some fans are tired of AU content, but the majority of responses show a love for the creativity behind AUs. “Roll your eyes at the 50th AU Sans all you want, it's encouraging people to step outside the boundaries of fanart and pushing people to make their own ideas! I mean, hell, it was how I gained the confidence to start making my own original content.” The lack of a judgemental atmosphere seems present in the AU community, according to the responses we saw. There is an interesting balance between AU and canon (sometimes referred to as “classic”) content that another responder pointed out: “The fandom helped keep the game alive all these years, with all of its AUs. Although personally, I always enjoyed AUs that kept characters as close to the classic material as possible (dancetale, outertale) I do appreciate the creativity of the fandom. They almost created entirely new stories with new characters of their own! If it weren't for those people, the Undertale fandom would have probably not been as active as it is now. I do feel like we're getting a resurgence of classic content now too! (In 2021)”

Regardless of the many AUs the fandom has created over the years, the original game of Undertale still feels like home for many fans. They wished they could reclaim the feeling of playing the game again for the first time, but even though we can’t reset time in real life, there is still a special feeling for fans each time they play Undertale. One fan said, “Even the best fics I've read can't capture that feeling of nostalgia/almost-"coming home" that comes with hearing the music and talking to the characters.” This feeling is one that can be cherished time and time again. In the words of another responder: “It always feels welcoming like home or like comfort food that I never grow tired of no matter how many times I go to it.” Others pointed out the strength of the found family trope in Undertale, which likely contributes to this feeling of “home” as well.

As mentioned briefly earlier, the music is part of what makes Undertale feel like home for fans. Even when responses focused on other aspects of the game, many would throw in a comment about the soundtrack at the end. One comment focused on the music said “IT'S SO GOOD like I will literally go through the entire thing over and over and not be bored with it. It makes my monkey brain so happy you have no idea.” Like with the game itself, the music has incredible replay value, an amazing feat considering most of the tracks use the same few motifs. “I think what I like the most about Undertale is how the music attaches you to the story,” another responder said. “They're simple melodies that stick with you throughout the whole game, and they can remind you of both good and bad times.”

If the music sticks with fans in their hearts, then the game’s lore sticks with fans in their minds. Even six years after the release of Undertale, fans are still creating new theories and digging up new secrets. The way the game breaks the fourth wall in particular intrigued many fans and has stuck out through all these years. The awareness that the game shows for the RPG genre makes it memorable. The game plays with the player’s expectations and turns them on their heads, all while reminding the player that they’re in a game. There are few other games that do this on such a large scale, so it’s no surprise that fans cite this as one of their favorite things about Undertale.

Lastly, the LGBT+ representation in Undertale has been a huge draw for fans. Especially in 2015, the sheer volume of non-cishet characters was unprecedented, as one fan pointed out: “It's practically unheard of to see so MANY from just one source, especially during its heyday in 2015-16. Hell, you can't even GET the true pacifist ending without helping two gay couples hook up. It's really nice to see all of them being accepted for who they are and not judged for their sexuality or gender, at least in-canon.” The LGBT+ cast including Frisk, Chara, Napstablook, Monster Kid, Mettaton, Alphys, and Undyne each connected with fans in unique ways. It’s clear how important this is from responses such as: “There are canon nonbinary characters 🥺. i have never seen representation of myself before.” “It made me gay and trans so thanks for that.”

Once again I am overwhelmed with just how much there is to say about Undertale. One responder really understood when they compared Undertale to an iceberg, explaining that there are so many layers to the game that there is something for everyone: “everyone can find something to enjoy in the lore/game regardless of what kind of fan they are! Being able to appeal to various types of fans—from simple happy shipper people to deep dive lorediggers—is the mark of the coolest games!” I would have to agree with them.

It’s been six years, and despite everything, it’s still you. Thank you for reading, participating in this survey, and above all, staying determined.

Highlights:

DETERMINATION became a metaphor for not killing myself at a really rough time in my life and I’ll always cherish that. Undertale isn’t afraid to go to really dark places but at the same time holds on so tight to its hope.

I think the coolest thing was having the opportunity to watch the AU community grow from its bare roots. It's nearly insane how big and complex it's gotten, unlike anything I'd ever seen before. Roll your eyes at the 50th AU Sans all you want, it's encouraging people to step outside the boundaries of fanart and pushing people to make their own ideas! I mean, hell, it was how I gained the confidence to start making my own original content.

i love how the lgbt rep is so naturalized... there are just gay people! and its nobodys business!

The music is my go to answer, but what I really really REALLY love is how the minor characters have so much personality to them when you talk to them. They aren't incredibly important to the overall story, but they're all so likeable and diverse that you just can't help but like them immediately!

I think it was the first videogame I have played that broke the fourth wall that much. Of course there has been other videogames that broke it but just for one or two tongue-in-cheek jokes. The guilt of killing mama goat was also something intense as well that I appreciated as an experience and that I didn't think a videogame could cause on someone.

I love how no character can be seen as completely bad! Everyone builds up Asgore as some horrible villain, but he turns out to be a 'fuzzy pushover' who's broken and just wants his family back by the time you meet him. Then you think Flowey's an irredeemable killer who engineered the suffering of the monsters across many timelines, and he is... but he also used to be the kind and beloved Prince Asriel Dreemurr, traumatized by his death and subsequent rebirth, projecting his best friend onto you.

The fact that choices matter in the game. Your first playthrough and getting the golden ending for the first time. I can never replicate those feelings again, wish I could erase my memories and replay the game from the start.

I wouldn't have met my now husband without Undertale.

(Toxic parts of the fandom aside) The community is possibly one of the kindest I've ever met. Cringe culture is completely dead, and I feel like I can be myself. I felt a very close connection to many of the characters, and I loved consuming content about them when I was in a rough patch in my life.

just everything, the whole game has just impacted my life so much. i know it sounds really lame, but when the game first came out, i would purposely put my hands in my pockets and sway slightly, like sans' idle animation. of course i dont do that anymore haha, but undertale still really impacts me to this day, and i wouldnt have it any other way :)

it made me gay and trans so thanks for that

I realized that Mercy isn't something that's given to those who deserve it. Flowey didn't deserve it. I don't deserve it myself. Shoot, we ALL need Mercy in our lives.

The thing I love most about Undertale is no matter how many times I play or watch a playthrough it always makes me genuinely happy. It always feels welcoming like home or like comfort food that I never grow tired of no matter how many times I go to it. Toriel still makes me feel all warm and cozy in her home, the Skelebros always make me laugh, and I still cry on the inside watching Frisk comforting Asriel. And on the flip side the No Mercy run still invokes the negative emotions in me as well. In short Undertale just feels like a second home to me and I always wish I could stay.

The reader inserts are my favorite way to decompress after a hard day

I think Undertale helped me discover my love for 8-bit games, and made me realize how IMPORTANT music is in video games.

the worldbuilding and character design are my favorite parts of the main game apart from the music! I’m also a huge fan of the random AU music- not for like underswap or underfell i like the stuff where someone makes a megalovania for a random au where gru from despicable me replaces sans as the character. i think its funny

Just... the vibe, honestly? Even the best fics I've read can't capture that feeling of nostalgia/almost-"coming home" that comes with hearing the music and talking to the characters.

there are canon nonbinary characters 🥺. i have never seen representation of myself before.

[SLAMS FIST ON DESK] I KNOW MOST PEOPLE SAY THE FANDOM IS TOXIC AND CRINGE OR WHATEVER BUT OH MY GOD. The Undertale fandom, both the UTMV and the actual UT fandom, has been so much fun to be a part of. I've met countless friends because of our shared interest in something related to the game! The art people create can be breathtaking and so inspirational, and the fanfics are so so good!! I've seen people write incredible things for this fandom and it's what made me continue writing!

There's a scene where Frisk (the player) is going towards what is presumably going to be their death. They will fight Asgore and he will use their human soul to break the barrier and free his people. The music, despite the player's impending doom, is... triumphant. You are not the triumphant one here, and yet, the score invites you to experience the monsters' joy and happiness as they tell you the tale of their subjugation. The monsters are going to be free. This is their victory, but they don't hate you or want you to die. They're just... happy. That scene has always struck me very deeply. I feel it represents the best parts of Undertale.

I loved how well thought out the Geno route was. It really made me feel like I was doing something horrible, and the characters were very obviously reacting to dire circumstances.

I dunno? I like Undertale for it's characters, story, music, secrets and many more. I am not good with Headcanons but I also like the neutral endings and how different they can depending on who you spare and kill

I was very bad at english before, i thought i couldn't progress because i was very shy and not confident. But my sibling and i wanted to have the best experience with this game so we wanted to play it in english. It's this game and the fandom which helped me to make huge progress in english !

THE SOUNDTRACK. IT'S SO GOOD like I will literally go through the entire thing over and over and not be bored with it. It makes my monkey brain so happy you have no idea.

to avoid writing an essay i will say one word. Mettaton

It is like Toby specifically made the games to fit the iceberg meme and it's awesome, everyone can find something to enjoy in the lore/game regardless of what kind of fan they are! Being able to appeal to various types of fans - from simple happy shipper people to deep dive lorediggers is the mark of the coolest games!

I love almost everything about Undertale as a game on its own. The music, the art and especially the characters and how they interact. They made me feel at home. Undertale means a huge amount to me. (I even got a tattoo of the castle when you and MK walk together!) The fandom helped keep the game alive all these years, with all of its AUs. Although personally, I always enjoyed AUs that kept characters as close to the classic material as possible (dancetale, outertale) I do appreciate the creativity of the fandom. They almost created entirely new stories with new characters of their own! If it weren't for those people, the Undertake fandom would have probably not been as active as it is now. I do feel like we're getting a resurgence of classic content now too! (In 2021)

the mystery. toby fox refused to give answers to anything and i think thats very sexy of him.

I just feel guilty for liking it so much when I'm in my 30's. But I recently got diagnosed with ASD, so I guess it explains things a bit. Many ppl consider Papyrus to be neurodivergent, and some adult fans are too, so seeing that makes me feel a bit better.

i think about "Despite everything, it's still you" everyday of my life.

I like how it's just as funny as it can be serious. All routes are this way. I laughed as much as I cried when I played the Pacifist route and then once I opened the game again and Flowey was telling me to let them be happy, I immediately turned off the game. I somehow felt bad.

The Found Family Trope

The True Pacifist Ending is just...man. And the fanworks about saving everyone even when the game doesn't let you? MANNNNNN

I think what I like the most about Undertale is how the music attaches you to the story. They're simple melodies that stick with you throughout the whole game, and they can remind you of both good and bad times.

there's honestly a LOT to love about this game, but i think one of my favorite things about it is just how many lgbt+ characters there are??? i can think of alphys, undyne, frisk, chara, mettaton, napstablook, monster kid, asgore, mad mew mew, the dress lion, the royal guards, and arguably even papyrus off of the top of my head, but im sure i'm forgetting a few from just undertale alone (there's even MORE in deltarune)!! it's practically unheard of to see so MANY from just one source, especially during its heyday in 2015-16. hell, you can't even GET the true pacifist ending without helping two gay couples hook up. it's really nice to see all of them being accepted for who they are and not judged for their sexuality or gender, at least in-canon.

[Image description: A wordcloud in the shape of the capitalized word UNDERTALE. The text is white on a black background, and uses the font found in the game. Some of the most visible words are: Game, Love, Music, Life, AU, Store, Friend, and Feel, which represent the most common words in the essays people wrote about their love for the game. End of ID]

[thewhitefluffyhat]

Thoughts on Deltarune Chapter 2

I wasn't even intending to write a Deltarune post, but here we are!

Have some extended ramblings/theorizing about Undertale, Deltarune, and the role of the "Player" vs character agency.

[Warning: full spoilers for ALL routes in both Undertale and Deltarune!]

.

Frisk’s Agency in Undertale

So I'm not sure how common this is nowadays (I haven't been following Undertale theories for a while), but I personally prefer the interpretation that there is no "Player" as an in-universe force in Undertale. I think it's a far more elegant story if the fourth wall isn't broken.

I'm also fond of the Narrator Chara and "Chara isn't pure evil until Murder Route teaches them to be" interpretations too.

And, of course, the third plank bridging those two is that I don't see Frisk as a just a pure, innocent cinnamon roll.

Because I like the story best when it's Frisk who chooses mercy or murder. It gives Frisk a much more complex character, if they are allowed to have the capacity for both immense kindness and immense cruelty. It even gives them an interesting implied character arc, if you take the natural progression path of True Pacifist > Murder Fun Times > Soulless Pacifist.

Just like Flowey, Frisk first tried to use their powers of Determination for good, but eventually they also grew curious and began to see the world as a game. And then they went too far and ultimately regretted it. Regretted it so much, in fact, that they were willing to sell their soul for just a chance to fix it.

After all, it's not you, the "Player," whose SOUL Chara wants. It's you, Frisk.

I also dislike the idea of an in-universe "Player" because that implies that "Frisk" is nothing but an empty shell - on ALL routes. All of those heartwarming moments in the True Pacifist route? All of the silly Flirt actions? Yeah, that's not Frisk, that's just as much the "Player" puppeting some poor kid's body as the events of the Bad Times.

Who knows what Frisk is truly like if their every action - good or ill - is controlled by some unseen, eldritch force? Now Frisk no longer has any characterization.

And given that said force overrides Frisk's agency, then isn't the "Player" evil no matter which route you take? It's become a story where they only "moral" choice is never to pick up the game at all. Hrm.

Anyway, but that's all Undertale. Which brings me to...

What the heck is going on in Deltarune?

Unlike Frisk=the Red SOUL in Undertale, we don't seem to control Kris=the Red SOUL in Deltarune. The game repeatedly underlines that the player only controls the Red SOUL, not Kris.

(Though, with stuff like the sound of the bathroom faucet only being audible when Kris's actual body is nearby - it seems like even when separated, the Red SOUL may still be perceiving through Kris's other senses besides sight...?)

With Spamton's dialogue and Kris's reaction after the non-Weird NEO fight, there's also a lot more emphasis in Deltarune of Kris (and the rest of the party!) being puppeted by some other force. And that's on top of all the stuff in the first chapter highlighting Kris/the Red SOUL's lack of agency.

Because of all those hints, Deltarune seems to be much more explicitly pointing toward that dark interpretation of Undertale - that the "Player"/Red SOUL is removing Kris's agency, regardless of route.

Indeed, I'm somewhat intrigued by the possibility that we/the Red SOUL might be forcing Kris to act nice just as much as we force them to act cruel. The way that Kris deliberately removes the Red SOUL in order to do some very suspicious actions might support that. As do some comments in Chapter 1, like characters in the post-Dark World walkaround noting how Kris is being less weird and more inquisitive than usual. Maybe Kris is the Knight and the Red SOUL is possessing them to undo their evil actions. Maybe the real Kris doesn't want to be friends with Susie and Ralsei at all!

But taking that interpretation to such an extreme also doesn't quite fit. Why does Kris slash the tires on Toriel's car? The only reason I can think of is that they want to keep Susie at their house. And why does Kris create the Dark World in their house? Is Kris creating the fountains because they want to have fun with friends? Especially right after the chapter emphasized how great the Dark World adventures were, that seems very likely.

There are also some smaller details too, of Kris interpreting the Red SOUL's input with their own spin (like saying things sarcastically), or of Kris chatting in a friendly way with Ralsei which the player/SOUL can't influence.

So, I'm pretty sure that even outside of the Red SOUL's control, Kris genuinely does like their friends.

Meanwhile, there were a lot of hints this chapter that Something Bad happened to Kris, Noelle, Dess, and Asriel when they went exploring in the forest by the graveyard. Most likely, they went into that ominous bunker south of the town. Is that incident related to Kris’s current strangeness?

And then, and THEN, there's the Snow Mercy route. That route seems to imply that the Red SOUL is both evil, and very much not Kris. Noelle says Kris isn't like themself, that their voice changes strangely, and she can still hear the creepy voice even when Kris is downed.

How to make sense of this all?

A Theory on Kris and the Red SOUL

One idea is that as scary and zombie-like as Kris looks without the SOUL, they're probably a nice, if lonely kid who desperately wants friends after their big brother went to college. (And possibly after something traumatic happened to them/their neighbor.) They're creating the Dark Worlds for the sake of fun and escapism.

But the Red SOUL puts an end to Kris's happy fantasies. Indeed, if the Red SOUL gives up, "the world is covered in darkness." So without the Red SOUL, would Kris simply keep creating fountains...? (What ARE the fountains, why can Kris and theoretically any Lightener create them?)

Maybe in the normal route, the Red SOUL is trying to gently help Kris move on and accept reality in some way. At the very least, I suspect Ralsei is working toward this goal.

But in that case... that's a pretty strange way for the Red SOUL to go about it, forcibly taking control of Kris to the point that the kid notices and seems to greatly resent it.

But what if the Red SOUL didn't have a choice about this arrangement either?

After all, the Red SOUL's customized vessel was discarded at the start of Chapter 1... and it was placed into Kris instead.

Here's a question: will Kris die if they're without a SOUL for too long?

Because there are an awful lot of moments in these games where characters break free of something they are bound to, but it doesn't end well: -Spamton collapses when his strings are cut. -The Darkeners can move freely outside their origin world for a while, but eventually turn to statues if they stay in another world. -Regardless of whether Berdly removes the Queen’s wires himself, he's exhausted and unable to fight any more after being under her control. -And when Kris takes the Red SOUL out of their body, their movements become slow and clumsy. Like it's a struggle for them to move at all.

Meanwhile in Undertale, post-Pacifist Asriel could maintain his form to say goodbye, but without SOUL(s), he inevitably returns to being Flowey.

So here's a theory: Kris died and/or lost their original soul. Perhaps due to some action/inaction on Noelle's part in the exploration incident. And as a last-ditch resort to keep them alive, the Red SOUL was somehow implanted in Kris.

(Also maybe Dess died/went missing at the same time...?)

And now, the Red SOUL the only thing keeping Kris around. 

But just like in Undertale, it seems like Deltarune SOULs have wills of their own.

Which means Kris's current state is similar to the Chara-Asriel fusion, or Omega Flowey, or even Frisk-Chara. Control of the body is shared. The difference is that instead of the SOUL we play representing the original owner/will of the body, this time the SOUL we're playing as is the intruder.

Essentially, this time around we are playing the role of the Chara-equivalent instead of the Frisk-equivalent!

(Though whether Kris themself is more of Chara or Frisk I’ll leave to other theorists...)

Anyway, while Kris likely wishes to be rid of the SOUL and dislikes this whole body sharing arrangement, they know they can't survive without it. And perhaps Kris being in a partially soulless state might explain why they do questionable stuff like creating Dark Worlds and slashing their mom's car tires in order to play with their friends. (Again, see also: Asriel/Flowey.)

But when the Red SOUL and Kris are in alignment, things go okay. The Red SOUL suggests commands, but Kris is willing to follow and seems to enjoy being with Susie and Ralsei.  

Let’s Talk About Snow Mercy

It's when the Red SOUL and Kris aren't in alignment... well. That seems to be what's happening in the Snow Mercy route. That kind of situation sure didn't go so hot with Frisk and Chara in Undertale, so I doubt this will end nicely for Kris and the Red SOUL either. At the very least, Kris seems to have been visibly upset after what happened with Noelle in this route.

(By the way, there are two other moments in Chapter 2 when Susie asks if Kris is okay - first after the normal Spamton NEO fight and subsequent discussion of what it meant and second after she and Kris approach the bunker.

Three different moments, but Kris appears to react similarly. Are all of these things related? The bunker, Kris being puppeted, and the events of the Snow Mercy route?)

Meanwhile, here’s a contrast. Undertale's Murder Route seemed to exist for the sake of curiosity and power - either the "Player" or Frisk's desires, whichever interpretation you subscribe to. And the changes to the world were all logical consequences of that - because of the Fallen Child's rampage, friendly NPCs disappear, major characters fight you more seriously, etc.

But the actions in Snow Mercy are... weirdly specific, weirdly unpredictable. It doesn't come across as a simple power trip. Instead, Snow Mercy is a bunch of really bizarre actions that feel even more mysterious to the player as they are to Noelle and Kris. I sure wouldn't have guessed that backtracking to the trash heap and freezing a bunch of enemies would lead to new items spontaneously appearing and then giving Noelle access to a scary new spell. It's like something straight out of a creepypasta!

The overall tone that comes across to me is that the Red SOUL seems to know what it's doing, even while the player is kept in the dark. And given Noelle's responses, it almost seems like the SOUL is trying to remind her of events/actions from her past, events which are obviously unknown to the player. All of which leads me to think that the Red SOUL has motives and goals of its own... so just like Undertale, this probably isn't a situation of the "Player" being a fourth wall-breaking force either.

The Red SOUL is its own character.

And I'm certainly curious to find out more about them!