#confirmation bias is definitely something that happens in the fandom

[blackandwhlteaesthetlc]

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[booksandabeer]

Stucky, Fandom Longevity, and "Primacy Bias"

There’s this post that's been floating around the past few days about how the Stucky fandom in its heyday produced fic and art masterpieces like they were all collectively possessed by an unprecedented spirit of creative insanity. It’s a good, fun post and I agree with the person who wrote it. (not rb'ing because I didn't want to hijack their post with something that's only tangentially related).

It was indeed a magical time and the creative output in both quantity and quality in the two-year period following the release of CA:TWS is—with perhaps a few exceptions—unmatched by anything that I’ve seen before and since. However, going through the notes on that post, I noticed something that left me a little irritated and quite frankly sad since it is in congruence with, and to a certain extent the confirmation of something that I’ve been thinking about a lot lately.

For one thing, there are so many people in the notes expressing sentiments along the lines of “it was such a wonderful time; I wish I could go back; I miss these fics; I want to read these fics again,” etc., etc., you get it. And it feels a little silly pointing this out, but…you can just do that? Almost all of these fics are still right there, waiting for you to be (re)read. Yes, a lot of people left the fandom after The Great Devastation of 2019, but their stories didn’t just disappear. It's not like there is now a big, black hole where the Steve/Bucky tag used to be on AO3. So, if you miss these fics and you want to revisit them—just do it. Chances are the authors will be delighted that people are still finding and enjoying their stories all these years later. And—since apparently this needs saying, too, judging from the notes on that post: A lot of people seem to be very concerned with losing ‘coolness points’ for openly admitting that they still miss the ship and often feel tempted to dip their toes back into the Stucky pool. I don’t know how to tell you this, but if someone tries to shame you for simply enjoying or missing something, they are an asshole. Not to mention that all this is happening on tumble.com—'coolness' doesn't exactly live here. And that is a good thing, to be clear. Fandom is not about being cool. It’s about being as enthusiastic, as silly, as absolutely fucking unhinged about the things you love as you want to be. So, stop caring what other people think and enjoy yourself.

The other thing is that there seems to be a pretty widespread misconception that the Stucky fandom hasn’t produced any good fanworks after 2016.

First, that is patently and demonstrably untrue. There is so much incredibly good fanfiction and fanart still out there. Not as much as back in the day, sure, but it still exists. And more is being posted every day! Even some of the OG Big Names are still around. One of the most beloved Stucky series that started all the way back in 2014 was updated as recently as December of last year. The artist, who I believe the op is referring to as creating ‘baroque’ paintings, posted their latest Stucky art not even two months ago.

Second, I find this “primacy bias” more than just a little insulting to the many hardworking and incredibly talented people who are still putting their blood, sweat, and tears into creating for this community. And it’s one thing if people who have long left the fandom believe or say something like this, but it’s frankly irritating when I see people who are still very much active—and therefore definitely should know better—feed into that same false myth. Yes, it sucks that the Stucky ship isn’t as big as it used to be, but that doesn't mean there isn't any 'fresh talent' to be found anymore. I’m also not saying we shouldn’t still celebrate and recommend older works—I do it all the time! And it sure as hell doesn't mean everyone has to reblog absolutely everything all the time, either. Your blog, your rules.

But maybe we should put a little more focus on the good things, on the creators and the community we have now, especially if we want that community to still exist in another ten years. I mean, imagine you’re a person who’s just gotten into the fandom (because yes, there are indeed still new people discovering Stucky all the time) and one of the first things you’re being told is “eh, nice that you're here, but you’re about 7 years late; the big party is already over.” Does that seem like a fun space to hang out in to you?

So. Let’s all—and I do not exclude myself from this because God knows, I love to complain—spend a little less time mourning the ‘good old days’ that are never coming back anyway, and instead focus our attention on enjoying and appreciating both the incredible treasure chest of an archive we have AND the wealth of high-quality art and fic that is still being created by this wonderful community every single day. With this in mind:

🥳🎊Happy Stucky Week 2023!!! 🎊🥳

*I want to make it very clear that this is a general thing that’s been on my mind lately and that I’m trying to work through here—probably not very coherently. I'm not trying to tell anybody 'how to do fandom' and I’m most definitely not vagueposting about any particular incident, person, or group in this fandom. This isn’t a callout post. It’s an I have a lot of thoughts and feelings about this and I don’t know what else do with them post.

[wp-blaze]

Enjoying Life’s Possibilities

It’s been a great adventure studying Ecclesiastes with you! I hope you have enjoyed it — please share the series with your friends or catch up on what you missed. Click here for all of the Enjoy Life: from Meaningless to Meaningful posts! I’m going to be completely honest with you, my friend.  Today’s post was […]

[jewishbarbies]

So I debated for a long time whether to send this or not bc I explicitly do not want to equate what's happening in I/P to fiction or in any way trivialize the very real people who have died

But I find it incredibly ironic (in a bad way) how the leftist circles screaming about Zionism are the same circles that are STILL openly proudly fans of tv shows/books/movies that depict war in genuinely nuanced ways. Ways that EXPLICITLY contradict the black and white narratives exploding in leftist spaces.

So like. Did y'all miss the point or do you think nuance is for fiction only? There are innocent civilians on every side in war and civilians shouldn't be blamed for the actions of their governments --but only in fiction? In the real world it's fine to celebrate civilian casualties as long as they're Israeli? Guilt by association in fiction is bad but every Jewish person should be held accountable for the Israeli military???

Like I'm intentionally not naming any fandoms bc this SHOULDN'T be about fandoms, but the hypocrisy is killing me. They claim to be fans of the "killing civilians is bad even when they're from the Bad Culture™" shows but they're out in the real world denying (or worse celebrating) Oct 7th? They love the fictional characters who say "killing civilians is bad" but can't stand Jewish people mourning the civilians in israel? What???

(again, I'm really not trying to make this extremely real problem about fiction. I just mean the complete lack of self awareness I see every day has me ready to explode. )

no, i get what you mean. i definitely think there's a link between the massive drop in critical thinking and media literacy and the fandomization of real world issues. there's some statistic that gen z is the most politically active of most previous generations and while that's inherently a good thing, they're not engaging with politics and conflicts in responsible ways. they'll do a lot of organizing for a cause here in america and get something done, and then think they can do the same thing for international plights and just end up stepping on everyone's toes, inadvertently perpetuating that america-centric attitude they claim to be against, bc they don't listen.

a lot of people these days refuse to engage with media in the way it's intended and therefore ignore or flat out miss its entire message. you'll have a movie/show/book/whatever about the nuances of war, like the hunger games (which gen z is so completely misinterpreting), and how easy it is to become the person you're fighting against if you let yourself do the things they do eye for an eye style, and they'll come away from that comparing hamas to katniss. it makes no sense within the context of the book's narrative, yet that's the conclusion they draw because they refuse to properly engage. it contradicts their second-hand anger. they're mad about their own shitty life in the states and the powerlessness we all feel here as our rights are being threatened every single day, and they'll look for somewhere else to put it all. so they butt in to situations they don't belong in and make it worse like bulls in a china closet.

bottom line is that they see what they want to see because of their lack of self reflection and self awareness, thus allowing their lack of media literacy, critical thinking, and confirmation bias run the way they think and believe. they've taken "it's fiction" to the point where none of them would pass a basic english class and now palestinians and hamas are all blorbos in The Real World Show.

[withacapitalp]

How come "books are books, shows are shows, do whatever you want w characters" doesn't apply to B*lly? Not trying to start drama, just genuinely want to understand. Is it because he's a bad guy I can't reshape him into something I'd like and ignore what's "canon?"

Oh boy Nonnie okay I'll try to be really clear but it probably won't come out super legible. I'm putting it under a read more because I don't wanna clog up my dash w a long explanation (which knowing me it's going to end up being) I also want to say that all of this is MY opinion. I'm no one's ultimate judge, I'm just a guy on the internet who writes stories.

All that to say, this is why I think that fundamentally the idea that Eddie's sexuality and Billy's racism can be manipulated in fandom on the same level is really flawed.

Overall I think that the point of fan fiction is personal enjoyment. Ultimately you're creating something with yourself as the audience in mind. If not, then I don't really get it. So, for you, maybe it can mean that. Do I personally agree? No, but I can't stop anyone from creating something and putting it online. That's the whole point of ao3, no bars, no barriers. When you start putting that kind of wall in place, a slippery slope starts to form, so even if I would never personally partake in some forms of fanfic, I get why it's important to have a place where any kind of fic can exist. Back button exists for a reason, block button exists for a reason, curate your own online experience.

I'm not gonna be the person who says like if you like Billy you're a garbage person, because like that just isn't true? The two aren't automatically associated. Do I think that people who want to erase that part of Billy should maybe examine that urge? Yeah, but I think we all need to look inside and see where systematic racism might make us think things are more acceptable than they should be. I also can't understand people who want to give Vecna a redemption arc, or the people who think Sn*pe was just misunderstood. Regardless, we're all works in progress, and 90% of people to me are capable of learning more and growing and seeing where they might be working with a bias. I know I definitely have my own too.

I personally just will not give him redemption of any form or reshape him, because to do so seems to be disrespectful from my point of view to real life people. I'm not a person of color, Billy's racism is at the forefront of his character, so for me to reshape that and erase it in a fanfic feels like I would be ignoring a serious thing and pretending like that never happened, when it exists in our society in a major way. There isn't a point where Billy's racism ever gets resolved. In fact, the whole thing gets dropped completely in s3 which seems like a really terrible oversight by the Duffers. It's used as a plot point when it was convenient, which is messy and wrong.

But All of that is just background to your real question here which I believe is this-

Why is it okay to change a character's sexuality, but not their bigotry?

For me, I don't really like to equate the two? I think that the idea that someone's sexuality is a 'flaw' that needs to be reshaped is kinda problematic, and we also don't actually know Eddie's sexuality. Everyone can say what they think till the cows come home, but at no point did we get 'Eddie is confirmed gay, straight, bi, etc. etc.' EVERY single interpretation of Eddie's sexuality is someone shaping canon as they see fit right now.

With Billy he is confirmed racist. He is 100% undoubtedly a racist. Not even someone who used to be racist who learned and repented. He was always racist and tried to commit a hate crime against Lucas (I would argue that he did, because holding a twelve year old up against a wall and threatening to kill them because they're black and they dared to want to get to know your sister feels like a hate crime to me) The only reason he didn't seriously hurt Lucas was the fact that Steve stepped in. That's it. He was going to assault a child for his race.

To compare ignoring that to playing with a character's sexuality feels....mm I just strongly don't agree. I don't exactly have words to explain, but I really don't.

I think there are things you can change about characters easily. You can change their sexualities, their ages, their genders, their backstories, but to fundamentally erase something like that just doesn't line up for me.

No call out here Nonnie, I appreciate that you wanted to ask and be open, but this is my question for people who want to change Billy that way- What is it about Billy that is so compelling that it feels necessary to change that part of him? Why is Billy the character you *need* to write for?

Jonathan is a fantastic big brother who has a ton of issues and was abused by his father. If you're having the hankering to try and examine a flawed big brother, he's right there.

Eddie is an outcast (and strongly implied that he comes from an abusive home) and if you're looking to try and write about that, he's right there.

Steve is the character that has actually GONE through the redemption people always try to give Billy. He said slurs and did bad things, and almost immediately went to make amends for them when he was able to acknowledge he did the wrong thing.

Billy never even apologized. He hadn't changed by the time he died, and no I don't think sacrificing himself was some major change. I think that a villain can be tragic without needing to retroactively make them a better person. Billy is a flawed and broken person. Yes that probably relates mostly to the way he was raised and the fact that his family was violent, but that doesn't excuse it. The Byers have an abusive home, and at no point does Jonathan act the way Billy does. I think they're really good foils to each other on what can happen with a big brother.

Anyways this was a really really long answer nonnie, but I hope I got it across why I really disagree with that stance. If anyone was offended or upset, know that wasn't my intenion, and feel free to let me know.

[bloggingboutburgers]

re: "let me know if you found something that works" -- all ive ever found in response to not finding the fandom representations you want is that your imagination and intuition are just as valid as a written story. that sounds bad so let me give some conditions:

it's cheap, and it can feel useless to just daydream. or like making the work happen again. but those little points where you think "omg this video is EXACTLY what those two are like!" when it's unrelated -- i like to think those are little nods from a universe that understands your perspective may not be written down, but is a truly necessary and valid one.

they're characters, but as entities they deserve at least our acknowledgement that we can't control their relationships or feelings. we can paint pictures of them, sure, but aren't the metrics of your soul and heart better at finding the material you want? and wouldn't that heart space be a more reasonable measure than someone who wants to write or read some consumable relationship package in a story? there's SO much less bias in the former, save for our own fears and loves staining things. which is fine. that's us.

the downside to this method is you gotta drop it when things click badly -- e.g. if something just brings you anxiety, it is probably just anxiety. but in all my years of fandom media i've found the best connections with our favorite characters really do come from the heart, not text on a page.

you're contributing to their world in a way just by believing what you believe. so trust that there are odd ways for "confirmation" to occur that would function just as well, if not more intimately, as/then a well-structured platonic/familial fic or artwork.

(that being said. seriously. as the "mom" of many characters, the lack of tags is, frankly, disturbing. i'm with you on the prayers for much more wholesome and general-audience fan works!!)

That's definitely a good thing to do – and I agree, we can always take comfort that we'll at least always have more control over our own brain, and how we experience things for ourselves. That much will always be a good thing.

But... If all of that's just never gonna leave your brain, it's still a pretty lonely experience. What's getting to me isn't an inability to engage with a work in a way I like for myself. What's getting to me mostly is that I'd like to make connections with people who enjoy those works, I wanna be able to talk about my feelings about something I love with someone else, and I can't seem to be able to in a way that doesn't make me feel like an outsider or a very far afterthought. And it's getting to me that I can't seem to make friends over these common interests the way pretty much everyone else seems to be able to.

[archivalofsins]

Honestly, there's people all over within the Milgram fandom who just want to have fun when it comes to voting. I don't particularly understand how that aspect of Milgram is fun. To me, judging people isn't meant to be a fun thing to do or something that makes you feel good. Being critical of anything isn't meant to feel good all the time. If it did for me, I'd personally wonder if I was actually thinking about the information presented.

The fun in it for me comes from considering that my beliefs may be flawed and questioning where those beliefs came from. That's not always fun, and it's not always comfortable. It's definitely not for those faint of heart. So, mindsets like that seem like blatant admissions that some just like judging people for the fun of it.

Which to each their own and I may get flack for saying this but that sort of way of looking at it is disgusting to me. Even more so when that judgment is negative and people are still like, this is so fun.

It's gross to think that people can get genuine enjoyment or pleasure from making others fictional or not circumstances worse. At least to me, it is, but maybe I'm just too sensitive.

So, I dislike seeing this sort of mindset even though Milgram lets anyone vote for any reason.

It certainly doesn't help that the individuals I've seen display this mindset complain about the outcomes of the judgments the most. Especially when it's not going their way or Milgram isn't presenting things the way they would like it to. It is soooo much whining when it gets to that point.

Then loosely tying the character that is getting criticism they don't agree with to the lowest hanging ethical or moral talking point and going but guys. To just straight talking crap about the series stating it's bad representation or writing and going well it's actually bad it confirmed this because.

Sorry, it's just so annoying sometimes. Personally, I believe if people are really just having fun and don't wish to think about it too deeply, then the result shouldn't matter. Because they've already had their fun through voting. People can't have their cake and eat it too. Once you eat it, it's gone. You have to get another one now. There are other cakes in the world you ate that one come on be mature. That was the old cake. This is the new cake you took part in baking it. You're getting what you put in.

I don't understand all the complaining I've heard about or seen in regards to the direction Milgram is taking in certain areas. Because to an extent, the direction it's taking is the result of the audience's input. So, when I take a step back and look at it as a story with the audience in mind. It's easy for me to see how what is occurring now and will occur later is a direct result of what the audience as a whole puts in.

Everyone is entitled to vote how they want to. Yet, no one is entitled to the outcome they assumed would happen if they voted that way. Because it isn't the audiences story. The audience is just a character within it impacting the narrative through their collective choice and reasoning.

Think of it like a choose your own adventure game or book. The choice you make ultimately can't change what has already been written planned or how the characters actually are. No one can force someone to be something they're not through their view of them.

Milgram just takes this concept a step further. People can vote based on any bias under the sun, as is everyone's right, but Milgram will judge the audience for those choices not just through the use of Es' character but everything else at the series disposal as well,

Something it has been doing since trial two,

"Don't weigh me measure me against your morality. Just shut it, will you? You know it all. Feeling magnanimous? INNOCENT? I'm so not that. Just shut it, will you? You know it all."

"Holler holler from safety, so worthless. The fights up here come up to the ring and face me."

"You and you throwing around rules for fun hoisting up morality and feeling good."

"So, it's wrong. Oh, shove that! INNOCENT isn't that right?"

"Victim and Perpetrator, let's keep it simple."

Milgram has actively and consistently taken shots at individuals who vote using surface level reasoning. To be completely honest from the translation choices the staff has actively made, it can come off as though the series itself is making fun of those people.

Purge March extending it further by having Amane sing,

"Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. It's the beginning of a most wonderful day. However, there are blasphemers and silent by-standers, who would have it otherwise."

Something that not only called attention to all the silent enablers in Amane's life who knew about the way she was being treated but chose to do nothing but those within the fandom who watch Milgram but do not vote. People who have seen what Amane has been through but are choosing to do nothing. Dragging a very under discussed topic to the forefront the concept that no choice is a choice. So, it can be viewed just as poorly as making a choice can. Because when good people stay quiet, bad things happen.

Milgram also judges the majority verdict through the voice dramas as well. So, it's a bit outlandish to me that some still believe the judgments they make within the series won't be met with judgment in return. Simply because Milgram has been stating from the beginning, they will be. Besides that, no one is entitled to the right to judge others while not being judged themselves.

People are what they eat. Not only when it comes to food but the media we consume, what we're willing to accept. All these things shape one's personal identity and morals. I've said it from the beginning, and I'll keep saying it. The way I vote reflects on me as a person more than it does on the prisoners.

As Yuno and Mu both aptly put it, the audience is choosing to judge people consistently in this way. They don't have to vote at all or even vote anyone Guilty. No one is putting a gun to anybody's head and forcing their hand. So, on some level, people who are stating I'm just doing it for fun are no better than the characters they are judging. Something Milgram highlights well through their use of Futa as a character and his second voice drama.

That and by consistently drawing attention back to the fact that what has or will occur will be a result of the audience's choice. Not shying away from the fact that said judgments can end up having consequences. By ultimately refusing to make this easier for anyone or coddle the audience. Then going even further to highlight how the audiences' choices, while a part of the problem, are not inherently bad, it's a human response to judge things that one is exposed to as bad or good. Making it clear that there is no perfect or completely balanced solution here through showcasing that not making a choice can cause just as much harm.

So, it will always be funny to me to see people who are committed to passing judgment on others balk at reflecting on and internally interrogating why those judgment exists within themselves. All while still continuing to tentatively use their very personal morals and ethics to defend that choice and deflect criticism of it. This is just my "very' personal opinion, but this sort of thinking just shows off the blatant lack of compassion people be it large groups or individuals show when they believe or know there will be no tangible consequences to their actions for themselves.

Emphasis on the for themselves part. Because others do end up paying for their displays of ignorance and lack of consideration. These other people wind up getting taxed for their deluded and reckless displays by having to face mistreatment and abuse for these people's words or lack thereof them.

I know not only because I've seen it happen in real life numerous times but have personally had it happen to me within this fandom. I have been bothered over my opinions and the way I analyze this content. I've had people disregard my personal lived experiences and have been vagued about in every possible way. At this point, it comes with the territory. Recently, with the upcoming trial of Mikoto, I've begun having people make speculative and baseless claims about my mental health history.

Which,

A. Isn't any of their fucking business.

B. I do not have to disclose.

C. The act of doing this once again says more about these individuals than it ever will about me.

And most importantly

D. Has actively made me want to vote Mikoto guilty despite not voting on him the first time now just to get back at these fucking people. Because they've been that much of a fucking nuisance.

I'm starting to understand why he was so guilty before, and it seems like it's of no fault of his own. This is gonna be a surprise to read and probably get me more shit but I am petty enough to vote a character I like guilty simply because these individuals pissed me off. I can vote for any reason. It doesn't need to be helpful, I don't need to use logic, and I don't have to have empathy. I don't even have to give a fuck about my own feelings on the character.

I could vote this man guilty simply because Amane's verdict isn't going well. Nobody has to continue to be the bigger fucking person when they're continually being bothered and disrespected. I can simply vote to spite these people.

This is ultimately why I don't care about how people vote or how they discuss it. Because what goes around comes around. I don't give a damn what people do for fun to each their own. However, when that fun is at the expense of myself yeah I'm going to have a fucking problem. In this case, sadly, it has reached that point. I like hearing opinions outside of my own a great deal.

Honestly, though, if anyone is just voting based on surface level reasons such as it's fun. Like just fucking say that instead of tying it to morals that don't exist. If it's not that deep for these individuals, then they shouldn't play like it is. It's just performative nonsense as the people actually facing the consequences of the things these individuals jokingly espouse go overlooked.

I think Milgram itself handles this aspect of the fandom nicely because it's openly disdainful about it as well. Something I do appreciate simply because it highlights how while I may respect an individual's right to their opinion, I do not have any duty to love the way said individual expresses that opinion and I especially do not have to enjoy how said opinion ends up negatively impacting me.

Milgram is hellbent on teaching the audience that even the smallest action has consequences. So, if anyone is doing this just to have a good time or because they think judging people is fun and don't want that behavior interrogated. Milgram may just end up biting those sorts in the ass. Like Jackalope said, this isn't meant to be easy.

At the same time, having people carelessly vote this way is definitely going to make for interesting writing developments trial 3. Simple solutions always cause complex issues. In this Innocent (Forgiven), Guilty (Not Forgiven), or no choice system, there isn't really a right answer, just the answer individuals come to.

All that to say I'm petty as hell and fuck everybody voting Amane Guilty actually. If these last two are Innocent while she's Guilty again I am going to fucking break something. If that something is my consideration of other people's right to their personal decisions and my own desire to remain civil, so be it.

I'm simply not going to continue providing something to others that is not provided to me. If people have an issue with that mindset, well, it is what it is. Do what you gotta do. I'm just trying to enjoy something in a way I find enjoyable, something a lot of people should understand. I'm just trying to have fun. It doesn't have to be that deep, everybody.

The way I discuss these things is fun to me. If it's not fun to see, then people don't have to see it or discuss me publicly at all. Minding one's own fucking business is one hundred percent free. Take a bit on the way out if you so choose to.

[ecoamerica]

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[tutuandscoot]

When would you wish you were a fly passing by to hear what T&S are saying in competition on the ice or do you wish you had the ability to read lips?

I think there would’ve been some interesting covos during and leading up sochi, I’d love to be inside their minds during that difficult time and how they managed to perform so well, the coming back together they say even years later they cherish so much that they were able to come together and overcome adversity- the strength they hold as their team of two never ceases to amaze me. This practice video during the really cute cuddle moment id love to know what they were saying.

As for during performances- what they say specifically in each moment im not desperate to know bc i would do the same thing with my partners on stage so i get why they do that- i love that they are constantly communicating and i LOOVEEE in general about them how they have this almost wordless, soulmate level chemistry through their eyes and holding each other but they value verbal communication so much- maybe this is where a lot of other teams fall flat, thinking they have chemistry but not placing anywhere near enough importance on communicating, listening and empathy.

More in general i would crave to be there for the rehearsal/construction processes of their programs, esp carmen, moulin rogue, mahler. The moment they describe in their book of S playing the MR music for her for the first time and awaiting her reaction.. like if there ever is a movie made they damn well better get that moment right, that needs cinematic justice.

Backstage before skating MR at the olys- how T describes throughout her career she would get so nervous she would be sick, before their last skate she said had there been an eject button she would’ve pressed it bc she just couldn’t stand the nerves/fear/unknowing of what happens when they finish that skate, and she saying how S would talk her back from the brink- the way they are the only ones who can control the self talk in each other’s minds as well as but maybe even better than their own.

The moment when she stopped mid carmen at 4cc, getting back on the ice together for the first time after the second surgery- I’m pretty sure its in the book they say how he came to pick her up at home in London and they went to the rink (im assuming ilderton) and they just started from basics again- like just basic hand to hand skating and finding her balance and rhythm again and not needing to look down at the ice but just into his eyes and it all coming back

The decision to come back to competition ..

In their rehearsals at the national ballet for Wish You Were Here

Ok im gonna stop there..

As for lip reading no not really, i mean i think im ok at it with deciphering somethings, i see some captions others have put on and im just like omg where TF did you get that from - so its part lip reading and just part common sense what they might be saying in the moment (removed of any biasses for/against relationship status which i get was hard to avoid at the time). The caption on the end of LTR at nationals- the hoopla that went on over people thinking he whispered “you were worth the wait”.. idk maybe im crazy or i just think differently to most but a) i have no idea if thats what he said and i definitely think this fandom in the past has seriously suffered from confirmation bias. b) scootie is gonna scootie and say every “”romantic”” thing under the sun without realising what people will think about it/construed it to mean. c) yeah sure that may have been what he said- if he did i take it as he had to wait the first 9 years of his life to have T his partner and that was worth the wait, or it could’ve meant something else only she will understand the significance of.

Idk.. im so honoured when people say they love what I write and the approach i take to analysing vm, the truth is it just comes from my heart and what i feel watching them and i really don’t over analyse what they do in the respect of figuring out what their relationship is, it on the contrary makes me even more opened minded and think about how beautiful it is they can have all these magical experiences that look romantic sometimes or like best friends or work partners other times, just how beautiful is that to have that abundance of love for someone for every aspect of them and its all in the sense of on not expecting anything from each other- just wanting to give everything for this person they admire..

Sorry that got off track… in conclusion part of me wants to have been a fly on the wall for all of it and the other is happy to just be amazed and moved by the silent intimacy from our pov..

[peculiarnation4u]

Why (i think) Huntlow confuses some people and myself (Very long post)

I don’t hate Huntlow, don’t even think it's bad. Felt the need to say that right off the bat for those of you who just saw the title and assumed the worst. So put your “Leave Huntlow alone!”, and “God I thought I was the only one who hated this ship” comments away, that’s not what this post is for. I made this to try to explain my complicated feelings towards this ship and how they came to be specifically why I feel the way I do. I also hope to shed some light as to why people may not be as fond of this ship as the other main two we have in the series. Now i only mean to give my thoughts, I can not speak for the bulk of the fandom and people who don’t like the ship, but maybe I can enlighten those who don't understand why the hate is here, and help the haters contain and focus the reasons they don’t like it outside of bias and petty ones. I'm also making this with the sole hope that'll i'll be proven wrong in For The Future and that my arguments will be invalidated (I don't believe you should ever hate a ship, just writing)

Huntlow, or Winter as some people call it which i refuse to do because like, winter is an already established word. Why would you name a ship after something that already exists and is used in daily conversation outside of the fandom? Isn't there a tumblr thread about why it’s a bad idea to name ships after already existing concepts.

Back to where I was, Huntlow is the ship between willow and hunter, established as canon in Labyrinth Runners. Despite that, the ship existed in the fandom prior to being confirmed and really started during the episode Any Sport In A Storm and fans of it only having to wait about a month till said confirmation. Unfortunately, it being confirmed somewhat divided a portion of the fandom with both sides being convinced they’re the minority. One of the main arguments against Huntlow was that it was rushed, which I don't actually agree with and will explain why later. Even so, it was still massively popular as Hunter’s only real understandable ship partner. With the four he had prior not really being well received by a majority of the fandom, Willow seemed like the best option handed to us on a silver platter and it wasn’t just a fanon ship either like most of them. That paired with the fandom eager to see Hunter get some sort of happiness and it not having any of the toxic tropes that usually come with teen mlw relationships in media it seemed like another hit from The Owl House relationship department and an obvious outcome. But was it?

Now like most of the fandom, I was right there watching all these episodes come out every week and the fan’s reactions to them as well as my own. I was personally really fond of Any Sport In A Storm as Willow, as well as Gus, was one of my favorite characters when the series started and I was happy that she finally got an episode or a moment to shine that didn’t feel overshadowed by Amity or Lumity. A little salty that it took being significant to Hunter for the fandom to finally give Gus and Willow the time of day but beggars can’t be choosers.

While watching the episode, one thing I and many others knew just from this episode alone was that the fandom was gonna start shipping Hunter and Willow, it was inevitable. However I wrote this off as the fandom just shipping as it does and didn’t pay it any mind, especially since I didn't see any of their interactions in the episode as romantic. So when Labyrinth Runners came out and confirmed that Hunter had a crush on Willow, my reaction was

“......what?”

No really, it was “what?”, I was confused. I mean I thought it was cute and was happy that Hunter had developed positive feelings for once, but seriously I didn’t see this coming at all, I was surprised, and that’s not a good thing. I wasn’t happy it was confirmed, I wasn’t even dreading it as either would imply I knew this was going to happen, but i didn’t, and i can explain why.

Now I will admit that I'm definitely biased. As you may have guessed, I'm not the fondest of Huntlow. But furthermore, I'm not the best at understanding what may lead two people to develop feelings for one in media and irl *cough*A-spec*cough*. So if Hunter or Willow had some sort of connection that I didn’t pick up on, that's on me. Though even with that drawback, I still think i’m not completely crazy when I squint at the writing

I mentioned before that Hunter's crush on Willow confused me, from a writing standpoint at least, so in order to understand it we have to look at what came before it, their meeting in Any Sport In A Storm. Call me crazy but this episode wasn’t enough to convince me Hunter would gain feelings, again from a writing perspective, not an emotional one. In terms of emotions I could completely get why he’d find her appealing, it was just poor at setting up that it was going to happen.

I think the main reason why is because there was no emphasis on their relationship specifically. Willow spoke to Hunter as she would any other member and as she did any other member. Gus got in a moment of speaking too. Hunter as well since he is shown interacting with and liking every member.

This downplays Willow and Hunter's presumed relationship and it raises the question of “why her?”, since Hunter showed that he liked everyone on the team equally, granted he put more focus on Willow but that was because she was the captain.

Hell, everything Hunter did with or to Willow, he did with or to Gus in the same episode, (meeting, complimenting their skills, a sad moment, a deep moment where they showcase their inner thoughts) he even goes on to have more moments and even an episode with gus.

Actually he had an episode with everyone except Willow , again I don’t count Any Sport In A Storm as it felt more like a group relationship episode than Willow and Hunter specifically, you wouldn’t consider Wing It Like Witches a Luz and Amity episode would you? (actually knowing this fandom, y'all probably would).

All this does is make Hunter and Willow’s chemistry look weaker by comparison, and only raises my questions. Hunter has more in common with everyone else on the team than Willow. The only thing they really had, that was stated and not assumed by the fandom, was that half a witch comment, which I want to talk about for a moment.

I remember hearing that line when I first watched the episode, back before the ship was really a thing, and even then I thought that they pulled this out of their ass the moment I heard it. Like it makes sense on a surface level but then you start thinking about it and it feels a little off.  Like Willow was called half a witch because she wasn’t good at magic, but Hunter can’t do magic at all, so would the term still apply. Where did he even hear it from, I find it hard to believe that a high up establishment like  the emperor’s coven would use playground insults, and Hunter couldn’t have just called himself it as we know this guy doesn’t know anything about slang. But all that is nitpicking, it just feels like it doesn’t hold as much weight for Hunter as it does Willow. We know Willow has been called it multiple times throughout the series and things adjacent to it, we see how she’s struggled with it and why she was called it. But Hunter doesn’t get any of that and I guess it lessens the impact, which is concerning since this is supposed to be their big connecting moment.

I feel like this could’ve been fixed if Hunter being called half a witch was brought up in an earlier episode, maybe when he was talking to Luz, that way the audience already knew this fact and didn’t learn at the same time Willow did.  Because at the moment, Hunter and Willow’s chemistry feels a little dry. There's a reason Gus is Hunter’s best friend and Hunter hasn’t spoken to Willow since the episode they met.

“But Hunter has a crush on her and he’s nervous so he’s not going to talk as much” . And that I understand, even noticing that it was a parallel to how Amity acted around Luz, and it was cute, but that’s the thing, cute, not efficient. It was sweet at first but then I started fearing that he actually wouldn’t talk to her ever again. It’s reminiscent of, and I don't want to compare the two because Huntlow is a thousand times better, Adrienette from MLB. In that show our mc Marinette has a crush on perfect model Adrien however is basically incapable of speaking to him without tripping over her words or backing out. At first it was cute how nervous she got but then it became detrimental to their relationship because she was unable to make a move and even the audience started to notice. How were we supposed to support this relationship or believe it’ll be ok if the mc had to get dragged to it by her friends or couldn’t do anything on her own, and Huntlow is giving me the same feelings. Nowhere near as bad as it just started and didn’t drag out but with only three (at the time) episodes left, i was paranoid.

Another way to explain my disposition is to simply look at the other two canon ships in the show, Lumity and Raeda and how they handled their ships. Earlier I stated that I didn't think Huntlow was rushed and I still stand by that. You can tell because it follows the same pattern as Raeda and Lumity, that the two characters become friends and almost immediately after, one of them catches feelings. Actually Eda got a crush on Raine faster than Hunter did Willow, both in story and irl. So it’s not rushed, however it does have an issue that led people to believe it was rushed, the aforementioned lack of chemistry and talking to one another before the crush came. Luz and Amity, and Raine and Eda were repeatedly shown talking to each other specifically and enjoying the other’s presence as well as getting to know them, Huntlow didn’t have that.

“But the show got shortened, they didn't have enough time to give Hunter and Willow their own episodes and moments”. And to that i say you’re right, but why even put in a ship if you know you won’t have the time to flesh it out. Also I can only agree with that statement so much when we’re constantly shown Hunter interacting with and having moments with Gus after their introduction.

Honestly I had a theory that Huntlow was always planned to happen back when they had more episodes, but then the show got shortened, however they still wanted to keep that so they left it in, which i'd be completely fine with.

It just feels off y'know, Raeda and Lumity were so good at avoiding tropes and doing something different. Amity could’ve just remained a stuck up bully or befriended Luz and become the angsty Lancer, but she didn’t. Their relationship could’ve been dragged out or Luz could’ve never shown signs of being interested until the show ended and they got together, but it didn’t. Luz and Amity could’ve gotten into stupid drama or jealousy after getting together, but they didn’t.

Raeda follows suit too. Raine could’ve just been the shitty ex who we forget about an episode later or they could’ve just been used for sexual tension instead of showing how they and Eda care for each other. Even more so, the reason why they broke up wasn’t left vague and it was actually worked on, instead of most exes tropes where the audience is never told why they broke up, or the two characters get back together without the initial reason they broke up being fixed. On top of that, all of their moments and episodes actually served the plot, world building or character development and it never felt like the plot stopped or like these moments could be taken out.

Raeda and Lumity did so many things differently, so it feels weird watching Huntlow come in and repeat so many tropes from media with teens as its main characters.The only thing I think Huntlow did differently was have a plus sized girl in the relationship, which I really like since plus sized girls usually aren't seen as desirable in media. Not that tropes are bad or that the ones Huntlow did were bad, it just makes me squint. Huntlow following so many tropes in comparison to Lumity and Raeda, plus flapjack (hunter’s closest friend for half a season) dying, plus Hunter being the character the writers like to torture, plus the weirdness of how it was written, makes me nervous because I really hope Huntlow isn’t going to be used just to hurt Hunter, mostly cause of fan backlash. Even I'd be a little upset if I got dragged along on this ride for nothing.

Now despite all of the things I've complained about, I still think Huntlow is fine, however I do think it could be better and fix the issues I mentioned earlier. Now the best fix would be to simply give them an episode, but we obviously don’t have time for that so the next would be to give them more moments together. Moments where Hunter is actually speaking and Willow isn’t doing all the work. Or give them more things in common, canonical things not stuff assumed by the fandom. Huntlow can definitely work, I even believe that that was the reason we were all able to overlook the negatives simply due to the ship having a lot of potential. (I really think that For the Future will give us this)

I have hope that my opinion will be swayed in these last two episodes and that my confusion will be put to rest. I feel like I'm missing something, like there was some sort of connection I didn't see, and if I didn't, then that's on me.

[dogsliampaynedoesntinstagram]

I don't understand why pointing out the 28s in Harrys music feels like satire. There are many more examples of Harry using things in 28s that in my opinion crosses the line of being a coincidence or fandom reach. I'll give a few more examples

In Boyfriends, the first word of the song is boyfriends and it starts at 28 seconds in

On his ig, in between the 2021 and 2022 tour announcement posts, there are 28 pictures posted from the tour

In Golden, before the line I know that you're scared because I'm so open, in the official lyrics, there are 28 goldens written out. He doesn't actually sing them but in exchange the beat is hit 28 times

In sunflower vol 6, he does the same thing at the end. The little woo woo woo du du du scats are repeated 28 times

In Cinema, you got is repeated 28 times

In Grapejuice, he sings 1982, which is 28 backwards and maybe louis 91 birth year

At the spotify listening party, they gave out ONO tickets to the crowd. The tickets had 28 homes drawn on them

In the Kiwi music video, there are 29 kids but girl that's featured is dressed in the same blue suit like harry. So if she is supposed to represent harry then techically there are 28 kids

In the Late Night Talking mv, the person in blue shirt he's sharing pasta with has 77 on each arm. 7x4 =28

Am I just completely blinded by confirmation bias? I'm trying to take a step back and look at it objectively and I'm having a hard time.

Oh anon - I think you are stuck in a loop of confirmation bias and I'll try to explain why. (I haven't tried to verify any of these - except Golden, which I didn't understand or still didn't).

I think there are three basic fallacies here. The first is unfixed goal posts - where you modify what counts so it makes up to 28. The second is if you have enough of something then '28' would be expected - for example if you were driving along the more car number plates you saw the more likely it would be that '28' would appear on one of them. The third is ignoring other explanations, both for specific examples of '28', and why '28' might be a common number.

Unfixed Goal Posts

The Kiwi music video is an example of having your thumb on the scale. There were 29 kids, but you're saying one of them doesn't count. But if there had been one less kid you could have said there were 28 kids and counted that kid and if there'd been 27 kids you could have said there were 28 people, including Harry, and if there'd been 26 you could have counted Harry and the dog.

I'm not quite sure what you're arguing with Golden - the lyrics in the booklet don't have Golden 28 times. But if you're arguing that a lyric happens 28 times before a certain line - then that's definitely unfixed goal posts. If something occurs more than 28 times in a song, then you could always make the argument that something happens 28 times before a particular moment in the song.

If you have enough examples of anything 28 becomes expected

Harry has released 35 recorded songs. Why is it surprising that one of them starts 28 seconds in? Given the average and range of intros songs have - the likelihood a song where the singing starts 28 seconds in would be expected.

He has almost 600 posts on Instagram. It's hardly surprising that sometimes a certain type of post is 28 posts apart. (I think this is also an example of goal post moving).

Harry has lots of examples of songs where a short burst is repeated over and over again. It's probably more common in his song than in the wider genre. It's not a surprise that sometimes the repeats will come to 28.

Ignoring other explanations

1982 is a really significant year in wine making - in the context of a song about wine it doesn't need an explanation.

In the context of pop music, you'd expect 28 to come up more often than 25, 26, 27 or 29. A four beat rhythm is pretty central to the artform, therefore multiples of fours are more likely than any other number.

***********

None of what you mentioned seems odd or unlikely to me anon. It all seems like the sort of thing that you would expect to happen over years of someone's career. Of course it's not impossible that 28 might mean something to Harry and some of these might be slipped in deliberately. Part of my point is that we don't know how Harry relates to numbers - and if he thinks they're important he's not telling us. But nothing about what you list sticks out as unusual or impossible - it could definitely be a coincidence.

I guess my question would be - why the certainty about these sorts of things? Why assume what Harry is meaning and doing? What's the appeal of that?

[bonesandthebees]

[“Call me Phil, little bird,”] between this and putting Wilbur in the personal wing, feels a little like Phil has claimed him. Like there are a lot of reasons he could have put Wilbur in the personal wing, and I’ll get to those, but part of it is definitely a claim.

Wilbur got another huge upgrade in privilege. He gets to call the emperor by his personal name, his own room in the personal wing for an undetermined amount of time, and whatever that new coat is + access to the personal dinning room. And that on top the being allowed to see Phil whenever he wants and no guards being allowed to touch or hurt him and Phil and Techno’s protection. If that was his goal it would have been impressive, but it’s the opposite.

Wilbur also wonders what will happen when a deal is made. If he goes back with Tommy or if Phil wants him to stay. I think it’s safe to say he’s staying. Like after what Phil has heard about how the people on Eldingvegr treated him, Wilbur’s need to have a use and his unused potential on top of Phil’s care (cuz he does care, that’s been long since confirmed, the question is how much and it is enough to override the political side or not), Phil is not letting him go back there. (I hope, it would be so bad for him, do not send him back).

Also, there’s a lot of development shown in Phil giving his own personal name, but not pushing past to boundary to use Wilbur’s personal name like he did with dropping his title. Getting that permission could be part of why he gave Wilbur his personal name, but they also have enough of a connection to where he could just hand it over. Maybe he did overhear Jack using it and knows it can be earned, so he knows he can earn it too, and he wants to do that.

Also, Wilbur is a hypocrite, he trusts Phil so much to the point of falling asleep, yet still denies trust and win’r hand over his personal name (rightfully so, it’s the one thing he has that no one can tarnish). And then there’s the dining room, I wonder if Wilbur got access to the dining room so Phil could keep an eye on whether he’s eating or not. Though he doesn’t push, he just goes for the indirect route of distraction until Wilbur’s appetite comes back because anxiety is why it’s gone.

Lastly, Phil does know Wilbur, with additional Techno information. So he has a book about Elytra ready, because Techno told him Wilbur likes reading about planet’s culture and history and he’s told Wilbur a lot about himself, so he might as well share something about his home planet.

This concludes the Phil analysis (I hope). It has been really weird to try and look at the chapter through his lens and what he might think. I don't know if I’ll do it again. Also, I’ve been trying really hard to fight my fandom bias even though a huge part of me is screaming that Wilbur has been adopted. So I did try and find other angels or reasonings for what he does. Generally, I think it’s a mix of caring vs using. Can he do both? Yes. Is it healthy? Eh.

(6/6)

-🌲

wilbur has been given so many privileges he didn't ask for at all, and he's still not sure what it all means. phil knows what he's doing, but phil is also kind of impulsive in a sense that he doesn't really give a shit what other people think. he is showing HUGE favoritism to wilbur with all of this, granting a foreign prince so many privileges while not granting the same privileges to the literal crown prince of the planet. that's not something most royals would do just for the implications alone, but phil wasn't born a royal. he doesn't care about the 'standards'. he knows when he needs to give a shit what others think, and he knows when he doesn't. and right now, he doesn't need to care. this is a claim 100%.

hm, guess we'll have to wait and see if wilbur ends up going back :)

the thing is, phil stopped using wilbur's title back when the two of them were playing their power games more than they are now. it was a taunt, an insult to stop using his name to show he had power over wilbur. this was before their relationship developed to what it is now. so now phil knows if he pushes too hard, he might break everything they've developed. things have changed between them, so phil isn't going to try and pull a stunt like using his personal name without permission when he knows full well he can earn it.

oh yeah wilbur is absolutely a hypocrite. he says he doesn't trust phil and then literally puts his safety in phil's hands so many times.

phil does his research on his little bird and knows what kinds of things he likes to do. so he has the book ready because he know when wilbur wakes up after that fight, he's not going to be in a good head space. and sure enough, the book is exactly what wilbur needs

I loved reading your analysis of phil!! he's a very complex character in stars. it's not as simple as 'oh dadza adoption arc' at all, so I'm glad you're trying to look past your fandom bias. I'll tell you you're definitely on a really good track. also, stars isn't about healthy relationships. it's not a happy story about healing in the 'correct' ways from your trauma. it's about forging your own identity and sense of purpose, even if the ways you go about it aren't exactly the best. it's about the balance between genuine care and power plays. it's complicated and that's what makes it so fun for me to write :)

[onewomancitadel]

I really think someone, at some point, has to do a survey of fandom to figure out why it is that fanon and so much fandom interpretation in general is divorced from the text or outright countertextual. Is it specifically fandom that cultivates this or is it a broader cultural thing? Like an example I can specifically think of, because he's such a cultural icon, is Luke Skywalker, where there's a popular perception that he's your average run of the mill hero who kills all the bad guys when his defining narrative act is his refusal to kill his father and to redeem him even against the advice of his masters. This isn't just a fandom-specific assumption, I feel like.

Is it partly confirmation bias? One is more likely to pay attention to what annoys one than not. Is this just part of the struggle with storytelling? Really, like, the idea that storytelling transcends the text and is itself indicative of what you choose to read into things, what you choose to hear instead is actually really interesting. Part of the reason why I take umbrage with 'death of the author' is because it obfuscates the ability to articulate where the text ends and you begin. The more extreme position that the text is absent the author isn't totally common, but positions like it - that canon is your playpen, you can do whatever you want - definitely circle around it.

The problem, I think, might be more to do with the platforms in which these engagements happen, and the priority given to one interpretation over another. It is probably bad that there are platforms which incentivise not thinking about your own opinions and platforms which incentivise contrarianism and more and more extreme positions for the sake of clickbait and probably - whilst fandom is 'natural' in some way that you want to share your reaction to something and bond over art/literature/media - it naturally becomes a home to politicking.

But it's really fucking annoying lol.

[glitch-in-the-code]

I will say, as someone who's watched all of matpats channels since about 2013/14, I absolutely hate most of his FNAF theories since like FNAF 4 and the Gregory is a robot theory is my absolute least favorite. The thing that gets me is that he's said himself that he hates that theory but that it just lines up with the clues, but watching him play security breach and then the clues he uses after you can see his confirmation bias, exactly when it starts and how it keeps going. He has the power to analyze the clues for different theories but just followed his first hunch to avoid being wrong. At this point I mostly watch the FNAF theories to see what zany crap is going on with FNAF media I haven't consumed and just to laugh. At the end of the day it's a story that definitely wasn't fleshed out when the first game was released and no storyline will fit it perfectly so there's no point in attacking people who have different theories from the main ones and honestly, I love your timeline, it's much clearer and more concise than any others I've seen.

Thank you!!! I really appreciate the kind words, they mean a lot!!

I use to be a big Matpat fan, I won’t lie, back when fnaf first came out and was very popular, his fnaf 4 theories is what lost me, I hate dream theory and I agree, the ‘Gregory is a robot’ is one of the worst but I hate how he treats the books. Just because something happened in the books doesn’t mean it happens in the game! The books are a different timeline!!

I watched Markiplier play SB but even then, I don’t understand why the Gregory Robot theory came to be? All of the evidence I heard was just the Freddy line when he says ‘you’re hurt’ very vaguely but there’s an unused voiceline where he says blood, which debunks whatever ‘evidence’ was found??

But I agree, fnaf was not a story game when it first came out and that’s down a lot of damage to it in recent years, it was never suppose to get this big

The five nights fandom has changed a lot since 2014 but it also stayed the same in a lot of ways, I can browse the main tag without fear of finding N-SFW (I mean, sometimes you find a piece or two but it’s still way better than it was) but people are still was ruthless as they were about theories and timelines as they were back in the day. People are also just being sucky to others who’s joining because of SB, and while I understand their point of view, I’m glad more people are finding joy in the series I’ve been loving since 2014

[sizzlingpatrolfox]

thoughts on people comparing jimin flying to support hobi to jimin flying for jungkooks birthday? A lot of jikookers were upset about the ot7-fication of jikooks relationship. Personally for me I just think it’s people shouting out how good of a friend jimin is to the people close to him. When I saw the tweet that had jimin flying to both jungkook and hobi, my first thought was jimin is such a sweetheart I can’t imagine having a friend so lovely. I know people were saying some ot7 army ignore jikook moments and only use them when they’re lumping them in with other moments and I get that- but at the same time not everyone looks at things with a shipping lens.

Yeah, not everyone looks through ship lenses or with the conviction that two people are together. Shippers have already made up their mind about that, so everything will be taken as proof that they're together; as well as shippers of a different ship are convinced jikook are not together, so everything will be taken as proof that they aren't. Jikookers, just like any other shipper, act on the basis of confirmation bias.

Jikookers are like why does no one celebrate jikook's friendship and then their tweets are like:

"Gay man jimin traveling across the world to visit his gay man BOYFRIEND literally the definition of a married couple of 4u4949 years name a better gay relationship than jikooks"

And then the same people are like "why do the fandom ignore jikook's friendship?????" Maybe if you actually called it a friendship, jeez idk.

I think there are many different factors to take into account and why one could even be generally seen as more "valid" than the other, and one of those has definitely got to do with how much we know of the two situations.

Literally the entire planet was able to watch on live when Jimin put foot in the airport, then we saw him backstage with Hobi watching TXT performance and other artists, too; then there was Hobi's own show, and the vlive after.

But what exactly was there about Jimin coming back from Paris in 2019? It was just a photo, a real-time photo from which we all made the correct conclusion that Jimin was back in Korea and celebrating JK's birthday with him; and then a month after, Jimin confirmed it in his live. But that was it. There was no watching Jimin arriving in Korea, no Jungkook saying Jimin came to surprise me he was a light while I was in the darkness, none of that happened. It was only a photo. There's nothing wrong with it being just a photo, but I hope you understand what I'm talking about on how that could make people talk more or less about an event --it's simply a matter of the information available. Likewise, the fandom is choosing to ignore a woman who has, what looks like a very close relationship with Hoseok, and also traveled to watch him perform. And they're choosing to ignore it because they don't know anything about her or their relationship, and that's okay.

I keep talking about how what BTS say matter, it has always mattered and the fandom, usually, more or less, picks up on what they say and base their interpretation of the members on the things they all say about each other.

People were cursing Jimin left and right for being there and "taking the spotlight away from Hoseok" (wow, does it really take that little??), only for Hoseok to pretty much say Jimin was his saviour. Hoseok was not eating until Jimin arrived. If he hadn't say that, nobody would've known how important Jimin being there actually was. I'm incredibly glad Hoseok said that. If he hadn't it, it would've still been true, but we just wouldn't have known.

Knowing, or not knowing things, understanding, or not understanding the reasons for something, all of that changes people's interpretations of the same situation.

I can repeat "Jimin came from Paris for Jungkook's birthday" until my voice is hoarse, but what else can I objectively say about it? It's just that, a hard, concise fact. There is no more information about it for people to assign a special meaning to it.

For me, getting that BTS_twt notification and seeing Jimin's tweet with JK's photo, it's one of those moments that I remember exactly what I was doing when it happened. I never believed that Jimin had come back only for that, he already had another trip planned with people from Korea, he had definitely bought his ticket before that day and it was decided that he would leave from Korea, etc, so I never believed that he came back exclusively for Jungkook; just like with Hoseok, I've always thought JK's birthday was a stop. A stop that he could've avoided, obviously, and he didn't. I've also always knew that he was capable of doing the same for other friends, too. But there was a whole story and context to 2019 jikook until that moment, and if I'm being honest, for me, it was all that had happened before September that gave weight to Jimin coming back. It wasn't the "visit" itself, but everything that had been happening for like a year before that.

On the other hand, Jimin going to Chicago for Hoseok has all the information one could need to feel moved by it, and even the people involved (Hoseok and Jimin) talked about their feelings on the event, so it's logically easier for people to give it a special significance and make a big deal about it. Because Hoseok himself said it was a big deal!!

[lenievi]

reading about the confirmation bias and thinking about how fandoms and shipping and fandom fave/hated characters work is actually quite interesting

[rsmrymnt-tea]

the brothers and what dances they do (a bunch of not-so-serious dancing headcanons that I’ve spent too much time thinking about)

exactly what it says on the tin. this is all just what I imagine the brothers dancing during the dance battles and was also spurred on by how much I miss taking dance classes in the city :/ my knowledge isn’t too deep so if you guys have bits of knowledge to share let me know!! it’s been a hot minute since I last looked into this stuff and really this was just to indulge myself in imagining Mammon, Asmo, and Mephisto all going at it on the dance floor at the Fall

Lucifer

Personally I find it hard to imagine that Lucifer has the looseness and fun to be able to freestyle (at least, without feeling incredibly self-conscious about it), so while I do believe he can dance well, it’s largely dependent on whether he has choreo to follow or not. And even then he’d still do best with studio dancing more than street, and he shines the most when in formal settings.

However! Get him inebriated enough + play the right music and he’ll break out some soul dance a la Soul Train that just makes you wonder where and when the hell he got the chance to learn all that (hint: a certain red haired demon got absolutely enamored by the style for a while)

Mammon

Honestly strikes me as the kind who can pull off most street dances? Since he’s got the spirit, confidence, and vibes like he’s got the musicality for it. I can see him excelling in locking and house dance, plus being pretty good at Memphis Jookin’. Something also tells me he’s really good at storytelling when he dances, so whenever he starts getting Into It it’s a show that everyone wants to see. Learns pretty fast and makes everything look easy.

His go-to styles are pretty different from Asmo’s, both because he just finds them more enjoyable and because he knows how nasty Asmo gets when he steps on his toes, so to speak.

Levi

Sooo cliche but so correct—this demon loves his idol choreos and I personally don’t think it’s limited to just girl groups (headcanon that he stans boy groups too, his current bias groups just happen to be all girls? Has it been confirmed that they’re all girls?). He’s so good at picking up choreo that he knows what the boy groups do and can pull them off wonderfully well. He’s the kind of stan that can name a song with just the first second of the song played and never leaves the dance floor during random kpop dance challenges.

It’s also canon that he can do wotagei exceptionally well (to the point that even Satan wanted to try it out?). Personally I think he can do HardStyle, much to everyone’s surprise. Shuffle, Hakken, JumpStyle, you name it. It’s just rare that he ever goes out to get the chance to actually show anyone he can do it.

Satan

It’s a bit hard to imagine him doing anything other than ballroom and studio dances (much like Lucifer >.>) since he also seems like he’d be too self-conscious to really work on doing street dancing to the point that he can freestyle comfortably? But he’s tried out wotagei with Levi in the middle of a club so Satan’s a bit of a wild card.

He seems like he’s fun enough to do well with swing dancing though! And part of me wants to say he’s unexpectedly great at krumping? Which both makes sense when you think about what krumping is and what it means, but also doesn’t if you just look at the style (and music) and Satan separately.

Asmo

Another one who vibes like he excels with pretty much any sort of dance! He and Mammon definitely destroy the dance floor and are sure to have dance battles whenever they’re in the same club—probably a common occurrence and main attraction at The Fall. There’s a lot of dances I see him killing it with—like most social dances, dancehall, and the most agreed upon by the fandom, vogue. Personally I think he does incredible floor performances when he’s voguing and is the king of New Way.

But! I raise a lesser known but much more ‘Asmo’ feeling dance because of how dramatic and theatrical it is—waacking. It’s fun, expressive, and full of flair that matches its disco roots with a focus on musicality. Plus Asmo would totally be the dancer that playfully interacts with the audience and pulls props from out of nowhere. He’d mix voguing and waacking and it would be glorious.

Beel

Another one that is a bit hard to imagine dancing. I think he can follow choreo fairly well but he’s not the kind who dances elegantly. I mean, he could, but dancing elegantly when you’re that huge is a challenge.

When it comes to what dance I can see him doing well with—imagine this huge beast of a demon breakdancing? Yeah? Yeah. He intimidates all on the stage and can probably literally destroy the dance floor. He can pull off power moves just fine and it hits different because it’s him doing them. Stay out of his way or you might genuinely get knocked out!

Belphie

It’s interesting that it seems like the most popular dance he gets associated with is very difficult and requires a lot of fine control: ballet. So jumping off of that, there’s another dance that requires a lot of fine control that I see matching him very well and it’s popping.

Out of every dance I’ve seen, popping just has an effect on the audience like no other—it often doesn’t look like much is happening but there’s so much that goes into making it look effortless and I feel like Belphie would get a kick out of the kind of taunting that just hits harder when mixed into the popping. Plus to me it vibes on the opposite end of the spectrum compared to breakdancing, which I think works with his whole twin thing with Beel.

BONUS: Mephistopheles

Literally wanted to write this entire headcanon just to put out my hot take of Mephistopheles being Asmo’s arch nemesis when it comes to voguing. Have you seen his sprite poses? I know he has a cane (though I’m not even sure if he uses it for walking?) but he can catwalk and duckwalk for days in those heels of his. Does the most mesmerizing hands performances and does Old Way better than Asmo, which drives Asmo up the wall.

[themelodicenigma]

As I say constantly, there's a time and place for everything, different types of conversations that have different kinds of approaches. Half the battle seems to consistently be about finding the best approach for discussions or taking in material. I tour a lot of the FF and KH fandom, amongst others every now and then, and it's...bad. It's bad every where, I suppose.

Approach to analysis is important. Analyzing to prove vs. to understand is different.

Proving, through that of a preconceived conclusion, an agenda—this has way too many potential issues. This is where you run into confirmation bias, cherry-picking, contextual problems, logical fallacies, contradictions, or really just, inefficient takes that manipulate the information to fit into whatever someone is trying to prove. Instead of investigating the little, square-shaped hole and what naturally fits or doesn't fit, hell, even what could fit through even if it's the wrong shape but the right size—you might end up just trying to force this big triangle through, changing the hole itself or destroying the whole thing altogether.

This doesn't always turn out this way, like when making fun theories, but boy have I seen that more often. Even theories can end up being negative. I mean, I'VE done that before years ago, and had to realize my own immaturity when I started getting indignant. Once you get passed that, you realize how tiring it is to even be this way.

However, if your goal is To Understand, you're in a much better position to take in the material as it is. You let what's there, what's a part of it, to shape the conception of your conclusions and that of your perception. You rely on the information and corresponding outliers to be the context. It may even change or challenge your preconceptions and personal perspective, and you have to be willing to allow the material to do that. It's natural when taking something in the first time to have some type of idea or understanding—subtext in and of itself relies on an audience's ability to already understand something. However, once you settle down and say "let me look at this", you have to free yourself, well FROM yourself, a bit, as much as you can. Because even certain content as it is enforces a bit of our own thoughts to understand it (like subtext). But, you have to try for the sake of being objective, because it's not about you at that point, it's about the thing you're examining. This is much more fun, for me.

This is definitely a general thing, but in regards to fandom, it gets real twisted, and you have people who aren't letting the content itself be the leading point to what they understand, and the logic used is reflective of that. It's actually easy for this to happen, on different levels, so it's not always this super negative or mal-intent thing.

But damn when it is, and people eat up that bullshit, it can be real bad, cause confusion, and at times make if very difficult to even talk about the content itself because then it isn't about it, it's about something else. Real life, yeah, but I feel like fandoms are petri-dishes for this type of thing because of the inclination of personal investment and feelings.