#confirmation bias is definitely something that happens in the fandom

[booksandabeer]

Stucky, Fandom Longevity, and "Primacy Bias"

There’s this post that's been floating around the past few days about how the Stucky fandom in its heyday produced fic and art masterpieces like they were all collectively possessed by an unprecedented spirit of creative insanity. It’s a good, fun post and I agree with the person who wrote it. (not rb'ing because I didn't want to hijack their post with something that's only tangentially related).

It was indeed a magical time and the creative output in both quantity and quality in the two-year period following the release of CA:TWS is—with perhaps a few exceptions—unmatched by anything that I’ve seen before and since. However, going through the notes on that post, I noticed something that left me a little irritated and quite frankly sad since it is in congruence with, and to a certain extent the confirmation of something that I’ve been thinking about a lot lately.

For one thing, there are so many people in the notes expressing sentiments along the lines of “it was such a wonderful time; I wish I could go back; I miss these fics; I want to read these fics again,” etc., etc., you get it. And it feels a little silly pointing this out, but…you can just do that? Almost all of these fics are still right there, waiting for you to be (re)read. Yes, a lot of people left the fandom after The Great Devastation of 2019, but their stories didn’t just disappear. It's not like there is now a big, black hole where the Steve/Bucky tag used to be on AO3. So, if you miss these fics and you want to revisit them—just do it. Chances are the authors will be delighted that people are still finding and enjoying their stories all these years later. And—since apparently this needs saying, too, judging from the notes on that post: A lot of people seem to be very concerned with losing ‘coolness points’ for openly admitting that they still miss the ship and often feel tempted to dip their toes back into the Stucky pool. I don’t know how to tell you this, but if someone tries to shame you for simply enjoying or missing something, they are an asshole. Not to mention that all this is happening on tumble.com—'coolness' doesn't exactly live here. And that is a good thing, to be clear. Fandom is not about being cool. It’s about being as enthusiastic, as silly, as absolutely fucking unhinged about the things you love as you want to be. So, stop caring what other people think and enjoy yourself.

The other thing is that there seems to be a pretty widespread misconception that the Stucky fandom hasn’t produced any good fanworks after 2016.

First, that is patently and demonstrably untrue. There is so much incredibly good fanfiction and fanart still out there. Not as much as back in the day, sure, but it still exists. And more is being posted every day! Even some of the OG Big Names are still around. One of the most beloved Stucky series that started all the way back in 2014 was updated as recently as December of last year. The artist, who I believe the op is referring to as creating ‘baroque’ paintings, posted their latest Stucky art not even two months ago.

Second, I find this “primacy bias” more than just a little insulting to the many hardworking and incredibly talented people who are still putting their blood, sweat, and tears into creating for this community. And it’s one thing if people who have long left the fandom believe or say something like this, but it’s frankly irritating when I see people who are still very much active—and therefore definitely should know better—feed into that same false myth. Yes, it sucks that the Stucky ship isn’t as big as it used to be, but that doesn't mean there isn't any 'fresh talent' to be found anymore. I’m also not saying we shouldn’t still celebrate and recommend older works—I do it all the time! And it sure as hell doesn't mean everyone has to reblog absolutely everything all the time, either. Your blog, your rules.

But maybe we should put a little more focus on the good things, on the creators and the community we have now, especially if we want that community to still exist in another ten years. I mean, imagine you’re a person who’s just gotten into the fandom (because yes, there are indeed still new people discovering Stucky all the time) and one of the first things you’re being told is “eh, nice that you're here, but you’re about 7 years late; the big party is already over.” Does that seem like a fun space to hang out in to you?

So. Let’s all—and I do not exclude myself from this because God knows, I love to complain—spend a little less time mourning the ‘good old days’ that are never coming back anyway, and instead focus our attention on enjoying and appreciating both the incredible treasure chest of an archive we have AND the wealth of high-quality art and fic that is still being created by this wonderful community every single day. With this in mind:

🥳🎊Happy Stucky Week 2023!!! 🎊🥳

*I want to make it very clear that this is a general thing that’s been on my mind lately and that I’m trying to work through here—probably not very coherently. I'm not trying to tell anybody 'how to do fandom' and I’m most definitely not vagueposting about any particular incident, person, or group in this fandom. This isn’t a callout post. It’s an I have a lot of thoughts and feelings about this and I don’t know what else do with them post.

[jewishbarbies]

So I debated for a long time whether to send this or not bc I explicitly do not want to equate what's happening in I/P to fiction or in any way trivialize the very real people who have died

But I find it incredibly ironic (in a bad way) how the leftist circles screaming about Zionism are the same circles that are STILL openly proudly fans of tv shows/books/movies that depict war in genuinely nuanced ways. Ways that EXPLICITLY contradict the black and white narratives exploding in leftist spaces.

So like. Did y'all miss the point or do you think nuance is for fiction only? There are innocent civilians on every side in war and civilians shouldn't be blamed for the actions of their governments --but only in fiction? In the real world it's fine to celebrate civilian casualties as long as they're Israeli? Guilt by association in fiction is bad but every Jewish person should be held accountable for the Israeli military???

Like I'm intentionally not naming any fandoms bc this SHOULDN'T be about fandoms, but the hypocrisy is killing me. They claim to be fans of the "killing civilians is bad even when they're from the Bad Culture™" shows but they're out in the real world denying (or worse celebrating) Oct 7th? They love the fictional characters who say "killing civilians is bad" but can't stand Jewish people mourning the civilians in israel? What???

(again, I'm really not trying to make this extremely real problem about fiction. I just mean the complete lack of self awareness I see every day has me ready to explode. )

no, i get what you mean. i definitely think there's a link between the massive drop in critical thinking and media literacy and the fandomization of real world issues. there's some statistic that gen z is the most politically active of most previous generations and while that's inherently a good thing, they're not engaging with politics and conflicts in responsible ways. they'll do a lot of organizing for a cause here in america and get something done, and then think they can do the same thing for international plights and just end up stepping on everyone's toes, inadvertently perpetuating that america-centric attitude they claim to be against, bc they don't listen.

a lot of people these days refuse to engage with media in the way it's intended and therefore ignore or flat out miss its entire message. you'll have a movie/show/book/whatever about the nuances of war, like the hunger games (which gen z is so completely misinterpreting), and how easy it is to become the person you're fighting against if you let yourself do the things they do eye for an eye style, and they'll come away from that comparing hamas to katniss. it makes no sense within the context of the book's narrative, yet that's the conclusion they draw because they refuse to properly engage. it contradicts their second-hand anger. they're mad about their own shitty life in the states and the powerlessness we all feel here as our rights are being threatened every single day, and they'll look for somewhere else to put it all. so they butt in to situations they don't belong in and make it worse like bulls in a china closet.

bottom line is that they see what they want to see because of their lack of self reflection and self awareness, thus allowing their lack of media literacy, critical thinking, and confirmation bias run the way they think and believe. they've taken "it's fiction" to the point where none of them would pass a basic english class and now palestinians and hamas are all blorbos in The Real World Show.

[anonymousyellowlizard]

I want to add a bit to the twt discourse. I feel like some people are mixing up different aspects of the phandom that DnP may or may not like.

I think when Dan says "you know what you did" he means the stalking and the attempts to find out details of their private life, not fanfiction and fanart. Loudly atoning for the latter kinda minimizes the harm caused by the former.

Maybe Dan genuinely dislikes the rpf smut (which i doubt. he literally wanted to read it on his bd stream when no one asked him to). Maybe he just likes teasing us.

Either way it's definitely not something that makes them uncomfortable to a point of disappearing again.

That's a good point, actually, like someone else pointed out, the fanfic stuff from the phandom is used as a scapegoat by people who are just anti rpf anyways and want something to point at and say "see? That was so bad!"

It's just having a belief or bias already and then looking for an example to confirm it. And perhaps there will be people who are uncomfortable about actually facing the facts of the more invasive things that happened, the stalking and doxxing, which actually cause real life harm. And so we instead focus on the parts that seem not so bad, this is a common tactic with bad apologies in general, focusing on the less bad part and apologising way too much for it to divert attention from the actually bad parts.

Fixation on the fanart and fanfic and whatnot is hurting twice over in that way yes, one by distracting from the things that actually were wrong and two by giving people an excuse to hate on fiction they probably already hated and just wanted a justification for 🤷🏻‍♀️ scapegoating

Doesn't help that people get doxxed over fanfic too, so this becomes a way to ignore that stuff happening with dnp and saving the people who get so hostile and doxx over fanfic from having cognitive dissonance from it bc they've convinced themselves that the fics are the actual evil problem.

Anyway I think mostly what I've seen here is a much better understanding of this stuff, so really this is more some loud minorities or even people outside the fandom kinda problem of focusing on the wrong thing. But I agree, they've been v clear with their boundaries with fics and it's literally a non-issue. The stalking was the real problem and hopefully we don't see that happening again, to them or to other fans over silly stuff

[archivalofsins]

Honestly, there's people all over within the Milgram fandom who just want to have fun when it comes to voting. I don't particularly understand how that aspect of Milgram is fun. To me, judging people isn't meant to be a fun thing to do or something that makes you feel good. Being critical of anything isn't meant to feel good all the time. If it did for me, I'd personally wonder if I was actually thinking about the information presented.

The fun in it for me comes from considering that my beliefs may be flawed and questioning where those beliefs came from. That's not always fun, and it's not always comfortable. It's definitely not for those faint of heart. So, mindsets like that seem like blatant admissions that some just like judging people for the fun of it.

Which to each their own and I may get flack for saying this but that sort of way of looking at it is disgusting to me. Even more so when that judgment is negative and people are still like, this is so fun.

It's gross to think that people can get genuine enjoyment or pleasure from making others fictional or not circumstances worse. At least to me, it is, but maybe I'm just too sensitive.

So, I dislike seeing this sort of mindset even though Milgram lets anyone vote for any reason.

It certainly doesn't help that the individuals I've seen display this mindset complain about the outcomes of the judgments the most. Especially when it's not going their way or Milgram isn't presenting things the way they would like it to. It is soooo much whining when it gets to that point.

Then loosely tying the character that is getting criticism they don't agree with to the lowest hanging ethical or moral talking point and going but guys. To just straight talking crap about the series stating it's bad representation or writing and going well it's actually bad it confirmed this because.

Sorry, it's just so annoying sometimes. Personally, I believe if people are really just having fun and don't wish to think about it too deeply, then the result shouldn't matter. Because they've already had their fun through voting. People can't have their cake and eat it too. Once you eat it, it's gone. You have to get another one now. There are other cakes in the world you ate that one come on be mature. That was the old cake. This is the new cake you took part in baking it. You're getting what you put in.

I don't understand all the complaining I've heard about or seen in regards to the direction Milgram is taking in certain areas. Because to an extent, the direction it's taking is the result of the audience's input. So, when I take a step back and look at it as a story with the audience in mind. It's easy for me to see how what is occurring now and will occur later is a direct result of what the audience as a whole puts in.

Everyone is entitled to vote how they want to. Yet, no one is entitled to the outcome they assumed would happen if they voted that way. Because it isn't the audiences story. The audience is just a character within it impacting the narrative through their collective choice and reasoning.

Think of it like a choose your own adventure game or book. The choice you make ultimately can't change what has already been written planned or how the characters actually are. No one can force someone to be something they're not through their view of them.

Milgram just takes this concept a step further. People can vote based on any bias under the sun, as is everyone's right, but Milgram will judge the audience for those choices not just through the use of Es' character but everything else at the series disposal as well,

Something it has been doing since trial two,

"Don't weigh me measure me against your morality. Just shut it, will you? You know it all. Feeling magnanimous? INNOCENT? I'm so not that. Just shut it, will you? You know it all."

"Holler holler from safety, so worthless. The fights up here come up to the ring and face me."

"You and you throwing around rules for fun hoisting up morality and feeling good."

"So, it's wrong. Oh, shove that! INNOCENT isn't that right?"

"Victim and Perpetrator, let's keep it simple."

Milgram has actively and consistently taken shots at individuals who vote using surface level reasoning. To be completely honest from the translation choices the staff has actively made, it can come off as though the series itself is making fun of those people.

Purge March extending it further by having Amane sing,

"Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. It's the beginning of a most wonderful day. However, there are blasphemers and silent by-standers, who would have it otherwise."

Something that not only called attention to all the silent enablers in Amane's life who knew about the way she was being treated but chose to do nothing but those within the fandom who watch Milgram but do not vote. People who have seen what Amane has been through but are choosing to do nothing. Dragging a very under discussed topic to the forefront the concept that no choice is a choice. So, it can be viewed just as poorly as making a choice can. Because when good people stay quiet, bad things happen.

Milgram also judges the majority verdict through the voice dramas as well. So, it's a bit outlandish to me that some still believe the judgments they make within the series won't be met with judgment in return. Simply because Milgram has been stating from the beginning, they will be. Besides that, no one is entitled to the right to judge others while not being judged themselves.

People are what they eat. Not only when it comes to food but the media we consume, what we're willing to accept. All these things shape one's personal identity and morals. I've said it from the beginning, and I'll keep saying it. The way I vote reflects on me as a person more than it does on the prisoners.

As Yuno and Mu both aptly put it, the audience is choosing to judge people consistently in this way. They don't have to vote at all or even vote anyone Guilty. No one is putting a gun to anybody's head and forcing their hand. So, on some level, people who are stating I'm just doing it for fun are no better than the characters they are judging. Something Milgram highlights well through their use of Futa as a character and his second voice drama.

That and by consistently drawing attention back to the fact that what has or will occur will be a result of the audience's choice. Not shying away from the fact that said judgments can end up having consequences. By ultimately refusing to make this easier for anyone or coddle the audience. Then going even further to highlight how the audiences' choices, while a part of the problem, are not inherently bad, it's a human response to judge things that one is exposed to as bad or good. Making it clear that there is no perfect or completely balanced solution here through showcasing that not making a choice can cause just as much harm.

So, it will always be funny to me to see people who are committed to passing judgment on others balk at reflecting on and internally interrogating why those judgment exists within themselves. All while still continuing to tentatively use their very personal morals and ethics to defend that choice and deflect criticism of it. This is just my "very' personal opinion, but this sort of thinking just shows off the blatant lack of compassion people be it large groups or individuals show when they believe or know there will be no tangible consequences to their actions for themselves.

Emphasis on the for themselves part. Because others do end up paying for their displays of ignorance and lack of consideration. These other people wind up getting taxed for their deluded and reckless displays by having to face mistreatment and abuse for these people's words or lack thereof them.

I know not only because I've seen it happen in real life numerous times but have personally had it happen to me within this fandom. I have been bothered over my opinions and the way I analyze this content. I've had people disregard my personal lived experiences and have been vagued about in every possible way. At this point, it comes with the territory. Recently, with the upcoming trial of Mikoto, I've begun having people make speculative and baseless claims about my mental health history.

Which,

A. Isn't any of their fucking business.

B. I do not have to disclose.

C. The act of doing this once again says more about these individuals than it ever will about me.

And most importantly

D. Has actively made me want to vote Mikoto guilty despite not voting on him the first time now just to get back at these fucking people. Because they've been that much of a fucking nuisance.

I'm starting to understand why he was so guilty before, and it seems like it's of no fault of his own. This is gonna be a surprise to read and probably get me more shit but I am petty enough to vote a character I like guilty simply because these individuals pissed me off. I can vote for any reason. It doesn't need to be helpful, I don't need to use logic, and I don't have to have empathy. I don't even have to give a fuck about my own feelings on the character.

I could vote this man guilty simply because Amane's verdict isn't going well. Nobody has to continue to be the bigger fucking person when they're continually being bothered and disrespected. I can simply vote to spite these people.

This is ultimately why I don't care about how people vote or how they discuss it. Because what goes around comes around. I don't give a damn what people do for fun to each their own. However, when that fun is at the expense of myself yeah I'm going to have a fucking problem. In this case, sadly, it has reached that point. I like hearing opinions outside of my own a great deal.

Honestly, though, if anyone is just voting based on surface level reasons such as it's fun. Like just fucking say that instead of tying it to morals that don't exist. If it's not that deep for these individuals, then they shouldn't play like it is. It's just performative nonsense as the people actually facing the consequences of the things these individuals jokingly espouse go overlooked.

I think Milgram itself handles this aspect of the fandom nicely because it's openly disdainful about it as well. Something I do appreciate simply because it highlights how while I may respect an individual's right to their opinion, I do not have any duty to love the way said individual expresses that opinion and I especially do not have to enjoy how said opinion ends up negatively impacting me.

Milgram is hellbent on teaching the audience that even the smallest action has consequences. So, if anyone is doing this just to have a good time or because they think judging people is fun and don't want that behavior interrogated. Milgram may just end up biting those sorts in the ass. Like Jackalope said, this isn't meant to be easy.

At the same time, having people carelessly vote this way is definitely going to make for interesting writing developments trial 3. Simple solutions always cause complex issues. In this Innocent (Forgiven), Guilty (Not Forgiven), or no choice system, there isn't really a right answer, just the answer individuals come to.

All that to say I'm petty as hell and fuck everybody voting Amane Guilty actually. If these last two are Innocent while she's Guilty again I am going to fucking break something. If that something is my consideration of other people's right to their personal decisions and my own desire to remain civil, so be it.

I'm simply not going to continue providing something to others that is not provided to me. If people have an issue with that mindset, well, it is what it is. Do what you gotta do. I'm just trying to enjoy something in a way I find enjoyable, something a lot of people should understand. I'm just trying to have fun. It doesn't have to be that deep, everybody.

The way I discuss these things is fun to me. If it's not fun to see, then people don't have to see it or discuss me publicly at all. Minding one's own fucking business is one hundred percent free. Take a bit on the way out if you so choose to.

[blackandwhlteaesthetlc]

.

[lenievi]

reading about the confirmation bias and thinking about how fandoms and shipping and fandom fave/hated characters work is actually quite interesting

[rsmrymnt-tea]

the brothers and what dances they do (a bunch of not-so-serious dancing headcanons that I’ve spent too much time thinking about)

exactly what it says on the tin. this is all just what I imagine the brothers dancing during the dance battles and was also spurred on by how much I miss taking dance classes in the city :/ my knowledge isn’t too deep so if you guys have bits of knowledge to share let me know!! it’s been a hot minute since I last looked into this stuff and really this was just to indulge myself in imagining Mammon, Asmo, and Mephisto all going at it on the dance floor at the Fall

Lucifer

Personally I find it hard to imagine that Lucifer has the looseness and fun to be able to freestyle (at least, without feeling incredibly self-conscious about it), so while I do believe he can dance well, it’s largely dependent on whether he has choreo to follow or not. And even then he’d still do best with studio dancing more than street, and he shines the most when in formal settings.

However! Get him inebriated enough + play the right music and he’ll break out some soul dance a la Soul Train that just makes you wonder where and when the hell he got the chance to learn all that (hint: a certain red haired demon got absolutely enamored by the style for a while)

Mammon

Honestly strikes me as the kind who can pull off most street dances? Since he’s got the spirit, confidence, and vibes like he’s got the musicality for it. I can see him excelling in locking and house dance, plus being pretty good at Memphis Jookin’. Something also tells me he’s really good at storytelling when he dances, so whenever he starts getting Into It it’s a show that everyone wants to see. Learns pretty fast and makes everything look easy.

His go-to styles are pretty different from Asmo’s, both because he just finds them more enjoyable and because he knows how nasty Asmo gets when he steps on his toes, so to speak.

Levi

Sooo cliche but so correct—this demon loves his idol choreos and I personally don’t think it’s limited to just girl groups (headcanon that he stans boy groups too, his current bias groups just happen to be all girls? Has it been confirmed that they’re all girls?). He’s so good at picking up choreo that he knows what the boy groups do and can pull them off wonderfully well. He’s the kind of stan that can name a song with just the first second of the song played and never leaves the dance floor during random kpop dance challenges.

It’s also canon that he can do wotagei exceptionally well (to the point that even Satan wanted to try it out?). Personally I think he can do HardStyle, much to everyone’s surprise. Shuffle, Hakken, JumpStyle, you name it. It’s just rare that he ever goes out to get the chance to actually show anyone he can do it.

Satan

It’s a bit hard to imagine him doing anything other than ballroom and studio dances (much like Lucifer >.>) since he also seems like he’d be too self-conscious to really work on doing street dancing to the point that he can freestyle comfortably? But he’s tried out wotagei with Levi in the middle of a club so Satan’s a bit of a wild card.

He seems like he’s fun enough to do well with swing dancing though! And part of me wants to say he’s unexpectedly great at krumping? Which both makes sense when you think about what krumping is and what it means, but also doesn’t if you just look at the style (and music) and Satan separately.

Asmo

Another one who vibes like he excels with pretty much any sort of dance! He and Mammon definitely destroy the dance floor and are sure to have dance battles whenever they’re in the same club—probably a common occurrence and main attraction at The Fall. There’s a lot of dances I see him killing it with—like most social dances, dancehall, and the most agreed upon by the fandom, vogue. Personally I think he does incredible floor performances when he’s voguing and is the king of New Way.

But! I raise a lesser known but much more ‘Asmo’ feeling dance because of how dramatic and theatrical it is—waacking. It’s fun, expressive, and full of flair that matches its disco roots with a focus on musicality. Plus Asmo would totally be the dancer that playfully interacts with the audience and pulls props from out of nowhere. He’d mix voguing and waacking and it would be glorious.

Beel

Another one that is a bit hard to imagine dancing. I think he can follow choreo fairly well but he’s not the kind who dances elegantly. I mean, he could, but dancing elegantly when you’re that huge is a challenge.

When it comes to what dance I can see him doing well with—imagine this huge beast of a demon breakdancing? Yeah? Yeah. He intimidates all on the stage and can probably literally destroy the dance floor. He can pull off power moves just fine and it hits different because it’s him doing them. Stay out of his way or you might genuinely get knocked out!

Belphie

It’s interesting that it seems like the most popular dance he gets associated with is very difficult and requires a lot of fine control: ballet. So jumping off of that, there’s another dance that requires a lot of fine control that I see matching him very well and it’s popping.

Out of every dance I’ve seen, popping just has an effect on the audience like no other—it often doesn’t look like much is happening but there’s so much that goes into making it look effortless and I feel like Belphie would get a kick out of the kind of taunting that just hits harder when mixed into the popping. Plus to me it vibes on the opposite end of the spectrum compared to breakdancing, which I think works with his whole twin thing with Beel.

BONUS: Mephistopheles

Literally wanted to write this entire headcanon just to put out my hot take of Mephistopheles being Asmo’s arch nemesis when it comes to voguing. Have you seen his sprite poses? I know he has a cane (though I’m not even sure if he uses it for walking?) but he can catwalk and duckwalk for days in those heels of his. Does the most mesmerizing hands performances and does Old Way better than Asmo, which drives Asmo up the wall.

[dogsliampaynedoesntinstagram]

I don't understand why pointing out the 28s in Harrys music feels like satire. There are many more examples of Harry using things in 28s that in my opinion crosses the line of being a coincidence or fandom reach. I'll give a few more examples

In Boyfriends, the first word of the song is boyfriends and it starts at 28 seconds in

On his ig, in between the 2021 and 2022 tour announcement posts, there are 28 pictures posted from the tour

In Golden, before the line I know that you're scared because I'm so open, in the official lyrics, there are 28 goldens written out. He doesn't actually sing them but in exchange the beat is hit 28 times

In sunflower vol 6, he does the same thing at the end. The little woo woo woo du du du scats are repeated 28 times

In Cinema, you got is repeated 28 times

In Grapejuice, he sings 1982, which is 28 backwards and maybe louis 91 birth year

At the spotify listening party, they gave out ONO tickets to the crowd. The tickets had 28 homes drawn on them

In the Kiwi music video, there are 29 kids but girl that's featured is dressed in the same blue suit like harry. So if she is supposed to represent harry then techically there are 28 kids

In the Late Night Talking mv, the person in blue shirt he's sharing pasta with has 77 on each arm. 7x4 =28

Am I just completely blinded by confirmation bias? I'm trying to take a step back and look at it objectively and I'm having a hard time.

Oh anon - I think you are stuck in a loop of confirmation bias and I'll try to explain why. (I haven't tried to verify any of these - except Golden, which I didn't understand or still didn't).

I think there are three basic fallacies here. The first is unfixed goal posts - where you modify what counts so it makes up to 28. The second is if you have enough of something then '28' would be expected - for example if you were driving along the more car number plates you saw the more likely it would be that '28' would appear on one of them. The third is ignoring other explanations, both for specific examples of '28', and why '28' might be a common number.

Unfixed Goal Posts

The Kiwi music video is an example of having your thumb on the scale. There were 29 kids, but you're saying one of them doesn't count. But if there had been one less kid you could have said there were 28 kids and counted that kid and if there'd been 27 kids you could have said there were 28 people, including Harry, and if there'd been 26 you could have counted Harry and the dog.

I'm not quite sure what you're arguing with Golden - the lyrics in the booklet don't have Golden 28 times. But if you're arguing that a lyric happens 28 times before a certain line - then that's definitely unfixed goal posts. If something occurs more than 28 times in a song, then you could always make the argument that something happens 28 times before a particular moment in the song.

If you have enough examples of anything 28 becomes expected

Harry has released 35 recorded songs. Why is it surprising that one of them starts 28 seconds in? Given the average and range of intros songs have - the likelihood a song where the singing starts 28 seconds in would be expected.

He has almost 600 posts on Instagram. It's hardly surprising that sometimes a certain type of post is 28 posts apart. (I think this is also an example of goal post moving).

Harry has lots of examples of songs where a short burst is repeated over and over again. It's probably more common in his song than in the wider genre. It's not a surprise that sometimes the repeats will come to 28.

Ignoring other explanations

1982 is a really significant year in wine making - in the context of a song about wine it doesn't need an explanation.

In the context of pop music, you'd expect 28 to come up more often than 25, 26, 27 or 29. A four beat rhythm is pretty central to the artform, therefore multiples of fours are more likely than any other number.

***********

None of what you mentioned seems odd or unlikely to me anon. It all seems like the sort of thing that you would expect to happen over years of someone's career. Of course it's not impossible that 28 might mean something to Harry and some of these might be slipped in deliberately. Part of my point is that we don't know how Harry relates to numbers - and if he thinks they're important he's not telling us. But nothing about what you list sticks out as unusual or impossible - it could definitely be a coincidence.

I guess my question would be - why the certainty about these sorts of things? Why assume what Harry is meaning and doing? What's the appeal of that?

[bonesandthebees]

[“Call me Phil, little bird,”] between this and putting Wilbur in the personal wing, feels a little like Phil has claimed him. Like there are a lot of reasons he could have put Wilbur in the personal wing, and I’ll get to those, but part of it is definitely a claim.

Wilbur got another huge upgrade in privilege. He gets to call the emperor by his personal name, his own room in the personal wing for an undetermined amount of time, and whatever that new coat is + access to the personal dinning room. And that on top the being allowed to see Phil whenever he wants and no guards being allowed to touch or hurt him and Phil and Techno’s protection. If that was his goal it would have been impressive, but it’s the opposite.

Wilbur also wonders what will happen when a deal is made. If he goes back with Tommy or if Phil wants him to stay. I think it’s safe to say he’s staying. Like after what Phil has heard about how the people on Eldingvegr treated him, Wilbur’s need to have a use and his unused potential on top of Phil’s care (cuz he does care, that’s been long since confirmed, the question is how much and it is enough to override the political side or not), Phil is not letting him go back there. (I hope, it would be so bad for him, do not send him back).

Also, there’s a lot of development shown in Phil giving his own personal name, but not pushing past to boundary to use Wilbur’s personal name like he did with dropping his title. Getting that permission could be part of why he gave Wilbur his personal name, but they also have enough of a connection to where he could just hand it over. Maybe he did overhear Jack using it and knows it can be earned, so he knows he can earn it too, and he wants to do that.

Also, Wilbur is a hypocrite, he trusts Phil so much to the point of falling asleep, yet still denies trust and win’r hand over his personal name (rightfully so, it’s the one thing he has that no one can tarnish). And then there’s the dining room, I wonder if Wilbur got access to the dining room so Phil could keep an eye on whether he’s eating or not. Though he doesn’t push, he just goes for the indirect route of distraction until Wilbur’s appetite comes back because anxiety is why it’s gone.

Lastly, Phil does know Wilbur, with additional Techno information. So he has a book about Elytra ready, because Techno told him Wilbur likes reading about planet’s culture and history and he’s told Wilbur a lot about himself, so he might as well share something about his home planet.

This concludes the Phil analysis (I hope). It has been really weird to try and look at the chapter through his lens and what he might think. I don't know if I’ll do it again. Also, I’ve been trying really hard to fight my fandom bias even though a huge part of me is screaming that Wilbur has been adopted. So I did try and find other angels or reasonings for what he does. Generally, I think it’s a mix of caring vs using. Can he do both? Yes. Is it healthy? Eh.

(6/6)

-🌲

wilbur has been given so many privileges he didn't ask for at all, and he's still not sure what it all means. phil knows what he's doing, but phil is also kind of impulsive in a sense that he doesn't really give a shit what other people think. he is showing HUGE favoritism to wilbur with all of this, granting a foreign prince so many privileges while not granting the same privileges to the literal crown prince of the planet. that's not something most royals would do just for the implications alone, but phil wasn't born a royal. he doesn't care about the 'standards'. he knows when he needs to give a shit what others think, and he knows when he doesn't. and right now, he doesn't need to care. this is a claim 100%.

hm, guess we'll have to wait and see if wilbur ends up going back :)

the thing is, phil stopped using wilbur's title back when the two of them were playing their power games more than they are now. it was a taunt, an insult to stop using his name to show he had power over wilbur. this was before their relationship developed to what it is now. so now phil knows if he pushes too hard, he might break everything they've developed. things have changed between them, so phil isn't going to try and pull a stunt like using his personal name without permission when he knows full well he can earn it.

oh yeah wilbur is absolutely a hypocrite. he says he doesn't trust phil and then literally puts his safety in phil's hands so many times.

phil does his research on his little bird and knows what kinds of things he likes to do. so he has the book ready because he know when wilbur wakes up after that fight, he's not going to be in a good head space. and sure enough, the book is exactly what wilbur needs

I loved reading your analysis of phil!! he's a very complex character in stars. it's not as simple as 'oh dadza adoption arc' at all, so I'm glad you're trying to look past your fandom bias. I'll tell you you're definitely on a really good track. also, stars isn't about healthy relationships. it's not a happy story about healing in the 'correct' ways from your trauma. it's about forging your own identity and sense of purpose, even if the ways you go about it aren't exactly the best. it's about the balance between genuine care and power plays. it's complicated and that's what makes it so fun for me to write :)

[themelodicenigma]

As I say constantly, there's a time and place for everything, different types of conversations that have different kinds of approaches. Half the battle seems to consistently be about finding the best approach for discussions or taking in material. I tour a lot of the FF and KH fandom, amongst others every now and then, and it's...bad. It's bad every where, I suppose.

Approach to analysis is important. Analyzing to prove vs. to understand is different.

Proving, through that of a preconceived conclusion, an agenda—this has way too many potential issues. This is where you run into confirmation bias, cherry-picking, contextual problems, logical fallacies, contradictions, or really just, inefficient takes that manipulate the information to fit into whatever someone is trying to prove. Instead of investigating the little, square-shaped hole and what naturally fits or doesn't fit, hell, even what could fit through even if it's the wrong shape but the right size—you might end up just trying to force this big triangle through, changing the hole itself or destroying the whole thing altogether.

This doesn't always turn out this way, like when making fun theories, but boy have I seen that more often. Even theories can end up being negative. I mean, I'VE done that before years ago, and had to realize my own immaturity when I started getting indignant. Once you get passed that, you realize how tiring it is to even be this way.

However, if your goal is To Understand, you're in a much better position to take in the material as it is. You let what's there, what's a part of it, to shape the conception of your conclusions and that of your perception. You rely on the information and corresponding outliers to be the context. It may even change or challenge your preconceptions and personal perspective, and you have to be willing to allow the material to do that. It's natural when taking something in the first time to have some type of idea or understanding—subtext in and of itself relies on an audience's ability to already understand something. However, once you settle down and say "let me look at this", you have to free yourself, well FROM yourself, a bit, as much as you can. Because even certain content as it is enforces a bit of our own thoughts to understand it (like subtext). But, you have to try for the sake of being objective, because it's not about you at that point, it's about the thing you're examining. This is much more fun, for me.

This is definitely a general thing, but in regards to fandom, it gets real twisted, and you have people who aren't letting the content itself be the leading point to what they understand, and the logic used is reflective of that. It's actually easy for this to happen, on different levels, so it's not always this super negative or mal-intent thing.

But damn when it is, and people eat up that bullshit, it can be real bad, cause confusion, and at times make if very difficult to even talk about the content itself because then it isn't about it, it's about something else. Real life, yeah, but I feel like fandoms are petri-dishes for this type of thing because of the inclination of personal investment and feelings.

[twdmusicboxmystery]

the c*rulers are freaking out because angela kang removed the carol and daryl spin off from her instagram and it’s rumored melissa backed out. beth is coming. it feels almost inevitable.

This happened about a week ago. I've had so much to post, I haven't gotten around to talking about it. Something weird is going on for sure, but at the same time, I really think they're freaking out over nothing.

So, as I understand it, the Carylers, are very worried about the Daryl/Carol spinoff. Look, everyone's a little suspicious that we haven't gotten a title or exact timeline. And the timeline definitely seems to have changed from what they originally announced. (You know, like 2 years ago?) It's just been pushed back.

But because that ship is pretty much chomping at the bit for this spinoff because they think it means Daryl and Carol will finally become a couple, they're sort of freaking out about every little thing. For the record, they're setting themselves up for major disappointment.

Then, one of their Caryl-only blog sources apparently reported that Melissa might be backing out and it might just be a Daryl spinoff now. (For the record, I'm pretty sure that's untrue.) Other rumors took it a step further and suggested the spinoff would be entirely cancelled.

It's just that with the delay in the spinoff, they're starting to experience confirmation bias and have meltdowns about it.

They asked two guys who are closely connected to the show if they could confirm or deny. One was Julian Cannon, one of the screeners who can go to the showrunners and ask questions. He's given good spoilers in the past that have always proved correct to my knowledge. In fact, he's the one who gave most of the spoilers about Leah, and all of them ended up being correct. So, I trust that what he says is true. He's one of those people tptb unabashedly uses to release things to the fandom they want released.

The other is Duane Charles (duane_charles_ on IG) who is a director of photography for TWD. Fans have gotten used to asking him questions as well, and he'll answer if he can.

So, when they asked Julian, he came back with, "Not true...goodnight." Many of them didn't accept this answer because they asked him a couple of things and he didn't specify. But I would assume this just means all of them are untrue.

When they asked Duane Charles, he said things with the spinoff are still up in the air, though he didn't specify what that means, exactly. And then he went on to say it's above his paygrade. Which really translates to, he doesn't know.

In addition to all of this, they're freaking out because AK changed the wording in her IG bio. This is the part I find a little ridiculous. Yes, she changed her bio. It used to say she was running the Daryl/Carol spinoff, and it doesn't say that anymore. (Again, with the confirmation bias for the fans.) But it DOES say TWDU, which would encompass the spinoff.

So yeah. I really don't think there's going to be anything at all to this. If anything as big as Melissa backing out or the spinoff being cancelled had happened, they would make an announcement. So, until they do that, I'm calling overall BS here.

Melissa has never shown any sign of not wanting to be in the show or the spinoff, and the contracts would have been signed BEFORE they announced it to the fandom.

Furthermore, while I do think the idea tptb presented about it being a "Daryl and Carol" show were misleading, and it's going to be much more a Beth and Daryl show than anything else, I still think Carol has a big role to play, based on the templates we've seen. And it's always been planned that way.

I think the idea presented in one of the tweets above that Norman "wants" to film in NY, and therefore Melissa is pulling out is laughable. Norman doesn't get to choose where they film. And he's said literally hundreds of times that he trusts the showrunners, and wherever they need him, that's where he'll be. The idea that he's demanding a location, and him and Melissa are disagreeing, and therefore she's leaving the show, is just downright ludicrous.

So, have their been some filming delays? Yes, undoubtedly. But I got news for you: filming delays happen in tv production. It's just part of the gig. Does it suck? Sure! In the sense that we want the spinoff now, rather than in 6 months. But hey, that's part of being in the TWD fandom. It doesn't mean we should jump straight to Melissa's-leaving-and-the-spinoff-is-cancelled-and-the-entire-TWDU-is-crashing-down-around-us.

Let's all try to be a little more logical than that, shall we?

So, this is how things are as I understand it. If an announcement of some kind is made, it may change things. But I'm not at all worried about anything these rumors are purporting. Unless Gimple or Kang come out and directly tell us these things, I'm pretty sure it's all just fandom drama. Hope that helps! Xoxo! ☔️❣️

[onewomancitadel]

I really think someone, at some point, has to do a survey of fandom to figure out why it is that fanon and so much fandom interpretation in general is divorced from the text or outright countertextual. Is it specifically fandom that cultivates this or is it a broader cultural thing? Like an example I can specifically think of, because he's such a cultural icon, is Luke Skywalker, where there's a popular perception that he's your average run of the mill hero who kills all the bad guys when his defining narrative act is his refusal to kill his father and to redeem him even against the advice of his masters. This isn't just a fandom-specific assumption, I feel like.

Is it partly confirmation bias? One is more likely to pay attention to what annoys one than not. Is this just part of the struggle with storytelling? Really, like, the idea that storytelling transcends the text and is itself indicative of what you choose to read into things, what you choose to hear instead is actually really interesting. Part of the reason why I take umbrage with 'death of the author' is because it obfuscates the ability to articulate where the text ends and you begin. The more extreme position that the text is absent the author isn't totally common, but positions like it - that canon is your playpen, you can do whatever you want - definitely circle around it.

The problem, I think, might be more to do with the platforms in which these engagements happen, and the priority given to one interpretation over another. It is probably bad that there are platforms which incentivise not thinking about your own opinions and platforms which incentivise contrarianism and more and more extreme positions for the sake of clickbait and probably - whilst fandom is 'natural' in some way that you want to share your reaction to something and bond over art/literature/media - it naturally becomes a home to politicking.

But it's really fucking annoying lol.

[i-make-fun-of-spn-characters]

i actually did think you didn't like sam and cas for the longest time, but it's more than your bias for dean is evident. it took awhile to see through that and understand you are coming at sam and cas out of love and in a fun way and just happen to like dean more. there are a lot of other blogs that make digs at characters (esp sam and cas) in a NOT fun way, but pretend they "love all of TFW" and that's on me for lumping you in with them.

.

You know Anon, back when I used to post absolutely NOTHING except for memes, and also had a Sam banner and icon, someone asked me who my favorite character was, and I made it a poll because I was curious how good of a job I was doing keeping my content even. Lo and behold—they chose in order by vote percentage:

Sam

Cas

Dean

Jack

Then as the poll has stayed up ever since, I think Dean and Cas have traded places in the voting (but by now everyone knows Dean is my favorite). But a very large percentage of people did not know Dean was my favorite starting out. I was surprised, because I do indeed love Dean very VERY much. It isn't that I don't like Sam and Cas—but to me, Dean is possibly one of the greatest characters of all time. I could not possibly put into words how much I enjoy his character and all of the reasons why he's touched my heart. There is just no one out there quite like him in my mind. I think my bias for Dean has come through more in recent times—especially since the finale, because I miss him very much and his shitty death gutted (DON'T) me.

I think watching the show, when you look at the story only through one characters' lens, it's very easy to resent the others for not being perfect friends/family/brothers. I have even seen someone voice the sentiment before, "To some degree, to love Sam is to hate Dean, and to hate Dean is to love Sam" (paraphrasing). The thing is, when you genuinely look at your favorite (whether that's Dean or Sam or Cas) and look at their motivations and feelings and actions, it's clear that they love each other very much. That's an unavoidable fact in my mind. Both the best and worst things they've done have been at least partially motivated by the love they have for one another. I cannot, ultimately, dislike Sam or Cas knowing how much Dean loves them. To hate them would be to hate a part of Dean that is innate to who he is—his love for his family—and the choices and sacrifices he has made due to that love. It would be to say that there is something broken inside him that makes him unable to make the right choices about who should and should not be in his life. It would be to say that the foundation of the show, at the center of which is Dean's heart and how people around him are pulled inside of its orbit, is something tainted and unworthy.

It would also be to say that Dean's mistakes are okay and theirs are not, because you will find countless parallel events and threads tying their different actions together in ways that are different but also are often very much the same, if you get their motivations.

I think, for every stan out there of any main character... it would be a good idea to watch through the show trying to see it through a lens besides that of your favorite. I did this with Sam, and I am currently doing a rewatch where one of the goals is to focus on Cas's point of view more. Nothing can give you greater compassion and understanding than trying to step inside someone else's shoes, and having done this is one of the primary reasons I can't bring myself to follow many SPN accounts I have come across on Tumblr, because resentment runs rampant in many places, over characters or ships, and I don't care for that negativity. It's also the primary reason I started this blog to begin with. I wanted to carve out a positive space, where I didn't completely refuse to engage with the characters flaws (god knows fandom won't shut up about them anyway), but a place where I pointed out their flaws only to say those flaws are okay, don't make any one of them more unworthy of love than any of the others. Those flaws (at least—the ones I agree exist... there's a lot of flaws attributed to Sam, Dean, and Cas that I don't agree with at all) are what makes them human (err... or angel, respectively). I am not interested in Mary Sues (and I am definitely not interested in fans who sand down characters into Mary Sues to escape any semblance of their favorite being "problematic"). Just show me why they make the choices they do, even when those choices are broken, and I'm compassionate and I'm fascinated. I dare anyone to do better than the characters did with the cards they were dealt—with the lives they lived.

I can't say I've had the same experience on Tumblr as you with blogs pretending to like Sam and Cas while having a clear bias for Dean... I've tended to see quite a lot more of the opposite or worse. There are, after all, several blogs dedicated to absolutely nothing except trying to spread outright hate for Dean, and there was a time not long ago that you could not even go in the Dean tag without seeing countless ugly posts spewing vitriol about him (that has faded significantly since the show ended). But I think we're all bound to be most wise to the bias against our favorites (hell—I have picked up on someone's dislike of Dean from a gif blog before... and it was later confirmed that I was right). This is also part of what feeds the culture of anti-ism in the fanbase. People watched these characters for 12-15 years, and they latched onto one of them, and they know that character, and in many cases find identity and comfort with that character, and they see that character accused of terrible things that really aren't accurate at all, and the kind of innate human response to that is to want to do the opposite—hate their favorite because they hate yours. I think it's clear that that isn't what we're really supposed to get out of SPN. I don't think the intended narrative is that Dean hates Cas or Sam or that Sam hates Dean or that any one of them is unworthy of love and acceptance or is perfect or is too flawed. People can choose the narratives they want, but I'll continue vehemently disagreeing with them and making fun of them with the tag #don't feed the stans after midnight.

[glitch-in-the-code]

I will say, as someone who's watched all of matpats channels since about 2013/14, I absolutely hate most of his FNAF theories since like FNAF 4 and the Gregory is a robot theory is my absolute least favorite. The thing that gets me is that he's said himself that he hates that theory but that it just lines up with the clues, but watching him play security breach and then the clues he uses after you can see his confirmation bias, exactly when it starts and how it keeps going. He has the power to analyze the clues for different theories but just followed his first hunch to avoid being wrong. At this point I mostly watch the FNAF theories to see what zany crap is going on with FNAF media I haven't consumed and just to laugh. At the end of the day it's a story that definitely wasn't fleshed out when the first game was released and no storyline will fit it perfectly so there's no point in attacking people who have different theories from the main ones and honestly, I love your timeline, it's much clearer and more concise than any others I've seen.

Thank you!!! I really appreciate the kind words, they mean a lot!!

I use to be a big Matpat fan, I won’t lie, back when fnaf first came out and was very popular, his fnaf 4 theories is what lost me, I hate dream theory and I agree, the ‘Gregory is a robot’ is one of the worst but I hate how he treats the books. Just because something happened in the books doesn’t mean it happens in the game! The books are a different timeline!!

I watched Markiplier play SB but even then, I don’t understand why the Gregory Robot theory came to be? All of the evidence I heard was just the Freddy line when he says ‘you’re hurt’ very vaguely but there’s an unused voiceline where he says blood, which debunks whatever ‘evidence’ was found??

But I agree, fnaf was not a story game when it first came out and that’s down a lot of damage to it in recent years, it was never suppose to get this big

The five nights fandom has changed a lot since 2014 but it also stayed the same in a lot of ways, I can browse the main tag without fear of finding N-SFW (I mean, sometimes you find a piece or two but it’s still way better than it was) but people are still was ruthless as they were about theories and timelines as they were back in the day. People are also just being sucky to others who’s joining because of SB, and while I understand their point of view, I’m glad more people are finding joy in the series I’ve been loving since 2014

[ruby-whistler]

I can't stop imaging c!dream redemption fic in like the style of like a sit-com with fucked up undertones, ya know? Like he's with the Syndicate and they have like fun banter and baking and shit, and then Dream'll just see a netherite axe or something and have a breakdown.

But I also just can't stop thinking about c!dream redemption. What are your thoughts on the idea that giving c!dream redemption would usurp his perviously shown narrative framing as the villain?

redemption is only further confirmation that someone's actions were amoral and their mindsets were wrong. i have never seen a redemption that makes it seem like the person did nothing wrong... because that's not a redemption arc, that's a plothole.

like, under any definition of the word, redemption is literally acknowledging your past wrongdoings so you can move on with your life and become better, i don't even understand why someone would think a redemption arc would change the way we view someone's past actions.

idk i just. there's a lot of, once again, dehumanization going on when people say stuff like that. it's a core human trait that we are able to learn from past mistakes. why even should it be any different with c!dream? why would a redemption arc be good for c!wilbur, who did bad things, or c!sam, or c!quackity - but somehow everyone's afraid that c!dream's would be "handled wrong"? it's not only disservice and discredit to the writers, but obvious bias, and idk, it just gives me bad vibes about the fandom.

also as for that first part. that would definitely happen; like at a syndicate meeting, techno draws an axe as demonstration or to emphasize a point and you hear a sharp inhale and dream steps back a bit from his chair, and like ranboo glances over at him for a second to which he shakes his head, and then they continue.

and this keeps happening until he has a complete breakdown or someone asks if he's ok. i'm begging for the second option, but really i'm not, because i love hurt/comfort and i'm evil skdfhskd

[sizzlingpatrolfox]

thoughts on people comparing jimin flying to support hobi to jimin flying for jungkooks birthday? A lot of jikookers were upset about the ot7-fication of jikooks relationship. Personally for me I just think it’s people shouting out how good of a friend jimin is to the people close to him. When I saw the tweet that had jimin flying to both jungkook and hobi, my first thought was jimin is such a sweetheart I can’t imagine having a friend so lovely. I know people were saying some ot7 army ignore jikook moments and only use them when they’re lumping them in with other moments and I get that- but at the same time not everyone looks at things with a shipping lens.

Yeah, not everyone looks through ship lenses or with the conviction that two people are together. Shippers have already made up their mind about that, so everything will be taken as proof that they're together; as well as shippers of a different ship are convinced jikook are not together, so everything will be taken as proof that they aren't. Jikookers, just like any other shipper, act on the basis of confirmation bias.

Jikookers are like why does no one celebrate jikook's friendship and then their tweets are like:

"Gay man jimin traveling across the world to visit his gay man BOYFRIEND literally the definition of a married couple of 4u4949 years name a better gay relationship than jikooks"

And then the same people are like "why do the fandom ignore jikook's friendship?????" Maybe if you actually called it a friendship, jeez idk.

I think there are many different factors to take into account and why one could even be generally seen as more "valid" than the other, and one of those has definitely got to do with how much we know of the two situations.

Literally the entire planet was able to watch on live when Jimin put foot in the airport, then we saw him backstage with Hobi watching TXT performance and other artists, too; then there was Hobi's own show, and the vlive after.

But what exactly was there about Jimin coming back from Paris in 2019? It was just a photo, a real-time photo from which we all made the correct conclusion that Jimin was back in Korea and celebrating JK's birthday with him; and then a month after, Jimin confirmed it in his live. But that was it. There was no watching Jimin arriving in Korea, no Jungkook saying Jimin came to surprise me he was a light while I was in the darkness, none of that happened. It was only a photo. There's nothing wrong with it being just a photo, but I hope you understand what I'm talking about on how that could make people talk more or less about an event --it's simply a matter of the information available. Likewise, the fandom is choosing to ignore a woman who has, what looks like a very close relationship with Hoseok, and also traveled to watch him perform. And they're choosing to ignore it because they don't know anything about her or their relationship, and that's okay.

I keep talking about how what BTS say matter, it has always mattered and the fandom, usually, more or less, picks up on what they say and base their interpretation of the members on the things they all say about each other.

People were cursing Jimin left and right for being there and "taking the spotlight away from Hoseok" (wow, does it really take that little??), only for Hoseok to pretty much say Jimin was his saviour. Hoseok was not eating until Jimin arrived. If he hadn't say that, nobody would've known how important Jimin being there actually was. I'm incredibly glad Hoseok said that. If he hadn't it, it would've still been true, but we just wouldn't have known.

Knowing, or not knowing things, understanding, or not understanding the reasons for something, all of that changes people's interpretations of the same situation.

I can repeat "Jimin came from Paris for Jungkook's birthday" until my voice is hoarse, but what else can I objectively say about it? It's just that, a hard, concise fact. There is no more information about it for people to assign a special meaning to it.

For me, getting that BTS_twt notification and seeing Jimin's tweet with JK's photo, it's one of those moments that I remember exactly what I was doing when it happened. I never believed that Jimin had come back only for that, he already had another trip planned with people from Korea, he had definitely bought his ticket before that day and it was decided that he would leave from Korea, etc, so I never believed that he came back exclusively for Jungkook; just like with Hoseok, I've always thought JK's birthday was a stop. A stop that he could've avoided, obviously, and he didn't. I've also always knew that he was capable of doing the same for other friends, too. But there was a whole story and context to 2019 jikook until that moment, and if I'm being honest, for me, it was all that had happened before September that gave weight to Jimin coming back. It wasn't the "visit" itself, but everything that had been happening for like a year before that.

On the other hand, Jimin going to Chicago for Hoseok has all the information one could need to feel moved by it, and even the people involved (Hoseok and Jimin) talked about their feelings on the event, so it's logically easier for people to give it a special significance and make a big deal about it. Because Hoseok himself said it was a big deal!!