I wanted to ask what you mean by this? "It takes some liberties with filler, and makes a few subtle changes with big fallout in terms of Guts leaving the Hawks imo (ie removing the inherent criticism and portraying it as necessary, which changes the central theme of the story lol)" What do you mean the 97 anime removes inherent criticism for Guts leaving the hawks and portrays it as necessary? I don't get what you're saying at all so I'd appreciate an explanation.
lol sorry, I breezed right over that because I've talked about it before and I have a tendency to forget that no one's read everything I've ever posted.
So basically
a) Guts leaving the Hawks was a Bad Decision in the manga. If you don't agree then this requires an essay behind it, so voila, here's that essay.
b) The anime portrayed it as a Good Decision for Guts, something he needed to do in pursuit of a noble, worthwhile goal.
The anime does this by changing a few key moments. One obvious one I always cite is the scene at Godo's, when Guts does his waterfall log exercise. In the manga this scene occurs in flashback after Wyald knocks him unconscious. Erika tells Guts he's going to die if he continues on the path he's going, and asks why tf he's doing this to himself. Guts basically says he has to get strong enough to defeat Zodd. End scene.
This contextualizes Guts' dream of sword swinging as an irrational need to defeat the guy who beat him. His goal is to fight Zodd again and win. Symbolically, due to the similar imagery they have in Guts' various nightmares and the essential themes of the story, Guts is driven to self-destructively fight monsters because of his csa trauma.
The anime, conversely, turns this moment into the first part of a training montage, dumps the conversation about fighting Zodd, and ends with Guts successfully slicing logs in half, signifying that he's now Strong Enough. It flattens all the nuance and implicit criticism of Guts out and turns it into a typical inspirational shounen moment.
There's also the Guts/Casca sex scene changing from two traumatized and miserable people hooking up ("licking wounds") into a much more cliched and straightforward romantic moment (using Guts' theme as a music cue, cutting out the choking and rape flashbacks and denial ("Don't think about those things right now,") swapping "I don't know if you'll get in the way of what I want to do or the opposite, but I wanna have you a hundred, no a thousand times" with "I don't know what the future will bring, all I know is I want to keep holding you," etc). All this adds up to Guts wanting to leave again with Casca being framed as the happily ever after that got foiled by the Eclipse, rather than part of the bad decision pile up that caused the Eclipse.
Cutting out the night after Guts leaves is another big one, removing Guts reflecting on whether he's making the right decision or whether he's throwing away a home and family based on a meaningless ideal that he can't even fulfill because it's a contradiction ("In the first place I got this idea in my head from hearing Griffith's words. If I hadn't... so can I say I've set out by my own will?") Spoiler alert, it's the second one. This theme is reinforced during the Lost Children Arc, so while it's not the anime's fault it cuts off abruptly, losing most of the Black Swordsman stuff also doesn't help.
The loss of the Wyald sequence in general cuts out so much implicative Guts character stuff - the irrationally driven to fight monsters due to trauma thing I mentioned earlier, but also Casca crying about it indicating that she would not be supportive of his goal if they did go off together, the self-destructiveness of Guts' monster hunting, and the parallels between Guts and Wyald (ie the other Hawks wondering if Guts is human, Wyald's forces being called the Black Dogs).
Even little tiny things like Guts telling Casca to stay back in the torture chamber, phrased as though he wants to spare her the sight of Griffith, rather than like he's irrationally guarding Griffith from anyone's approach, as is the manga vibe:
I don't think these changes are exactly intentional. I think they're mainly for pacing/content reasons - Guts stay at Godo's needed to be fleshed out because now it's half an episode, Guts' rape trauma is cut out so the Guts/Casca scene becomes less complicated, Skull Knight got cut so no long dark night of regretful contemplation, the Wyald sequence is a nightmare of pacing that had to be cut lol, etc. But they all add up to a Guts who is less flawed, less driven by trauma, and more driven by a noble, shounen-esque goal to be the best. It simplifies the story a lot imo, and downplays a lot of what makes Guts' narrative interesting to me.
Thanks for asking, hope that makes sense!
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i’m about to start gatekeeping interacting with fic authors from a lot of y’all. u need to learn how to behave
“i need more” “pls continue this” “when are you posting the next bit” why don’t you try showing some proper appreciation for what’s already written before you go demanding more!!!
a lot of time and energy goes into each piece of writing and it is incredibly disappointing for the primary feedback to be “give me more!” if you’re trying to motivate authors to continue, this kind of response has the opposite effect.
you know what is motivating? specific praise.
let me break it down for you.
How To Leave A Comment Without (Unintentionally) Sounding Like A Pri- [GUNSHOT]
point out a few specific things you liked about the fic and why. how it made you feel.
highlight a line or two or three that stuck out to you.
if it’s an incomplete work, express excitement at seeing where they’re going — without a demand for more.
it’s quite simple, and it doesn���t even have to be a long thing. this can be done in a hundred words or less.
and yeah, it takes effort. takes a bit of time. but fandom is about mutual support. it’s about community.
fic authors are not celebrities who don’t even see your attempts to get their attention. there is a real person on the other side of that screen living a real life, and if you want to encourage them in their craft and properly motivate them to write, try treating them like a fucking human being.
authors put in hours to create content (that only ends up not being truly appreciated). i think you can spare a few minutes to leave a detailed, thoughtful comment in turn.
idk just a semi-friendly reminder that authors don’t owe you shit actually
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Was the curse of hatred actually a real thing? or did danzo just demonize the uchiha;s anger? idk, being murderously angry or just angry in general is a reasonable and human response to oppression and genocide.
The "Curse of Hatred" Analysis
An interesting question. The Curse of Hatred looks dumb at first glance but there are also many misconceptions surrounding it.
Since it is such a hot mess to begin with, I will try to focus mostly on the in-universe canon and lore rather than making it even more complicated by bringing in too much real-world logic and criticizing Kishimoto.
There's a bunch of rambling in the tags though.
Kishimoto's Intentions
Whenever we talk about the "Curse of Hatred" the fandom will usually apply terms such as "racism", "bigotry" and "pseudoscience" - particularly in reference to Tobirama.
Again, I don't want to bring too much irl logic into this but I feel like we need to make a clear distinction between intention and interpretation over here. "[insert character] was a racist" and "the Uchiha were justified" is a valid interpretation of the story. But at the same time, I doubt that this was ever intended by Kishimoto.
I have talked about this at length in another post of mine, in which I analyzed Kishimoto's most likely intent and how exactly this information is relevant to us with a look at authorial intent in fiction. But the TL;DR version is that Japan is not exactly very sensitized to themes of racism and the "Curse of Hatred" is never framed as racist propaganda but exposition only. The lore also lines up with Kishimoto's personal views on how grudges are responsible for war (instead of corruption or racism) and the Uchiha's curse might be a metaphor for that.
In other words, the Curse of Hatred is real in canon. Even if it's a massive red flag and deserves to be criticized.
What Is The "Curse of Hatred" Even?
I have to admit, it's been a while since the last time I watched Naruto from start to finish, so I had to use the sources listed by the wiki rather than relying on my own findings and I might be biased. Because of that, I'd prefer everybody to regard my findings as headcanon or interpretation (especially further toward the end) rather than undisputed fact.
As far as I remember, the exact wording "Curse of Hatred" is only ever used by Obito. While not using the same wording, the curse is also referenced by Itachi, Hagoromo, and Tobirama who each have their own understanding of it. Unfortunately, we have no idea where exactly this wording or concept originated and we have no idea what exactly causes the Curse of Hatred that Obito refers to.
Hiruzen, Koharu, Homura, and even Danzo, while potentially influenced by Tobirama's teachings, do not reference the Curse of Hatred at all, at least not in relation to the Uchiha Clan itself.
Now here's the first one of my findings: The Curse of Hatred is supposed to be some sort of involuntary biological or cultural inclination causing Uchihas to become consumed by hatred but it is also something voluntary - a Nindo. While the former could be considered a "curse" in the traditional sense, the latter is definitely not.
For the Nindo, it is supposed to be some sort of antithesis to the Will of Fire. Because of that, it is not limited to the Uchiha but, according to Tobirama and Obito, closely associated. As explained later on in this post, most Uchihas do not follow this Nindo.
Core aspects of the Curse of Hatred as a Nindo:
Valuing a precious few above the many
Directing your hatred at those who took away your precious few
Growing stronger from those feelings of hatred (for the Uchiha, reflected in the form of the Sharingan)
A Biological Inclination?
Now back to Tobirama's theory, due to the narrative framing, we will assume his words to be truthful for the sake of this analysis. However, I will provide links to other people's posts delving into the fantasy racism discussion.
Tobirama is racist and his theories cannot be trusted.
Tobirama is not racist and there is validity to his theories.
I myself do not completely agree with either of these, but they might be interesting reads for you. If you do not agree with either of them, please keep it to yourself and do not bother the original creators.
Tobirama's theory goes as follows:
The Uchiha feel love and hate more strongly than other individuals
The strength of the Sharingan and the Uchihas' hatred are correlated
In a fit of hatred, odds are an Uchiha will commit evil
It is nowhere mentioned that the Uchiha are more likely to feel hate - only that their hatred is worse than the average person's and puts them at risk of being swayed by hateful ideologies.
A Cultural Inclination?
Aside from Tobirama's theory, multiple characters comment on the historical origin behind the Curse of Hatred.
We are talking, of course, about Indra. Obito explains that Indra's values and his hatred (particularly what later became the Nindo of the Curse of Hatred) were passed down to his descendants - the Uchiha clan. Tobirama's exposition implies the same thing.
Tobirama states that there "used to be a thought that [...] the basis of the Uchiha clan's strength was the power of their jutsu". It is very similar to Hagorormo's description of his son.
If this is correct, that would mean that the importance placed on powerful jutsu by the Uchiha Clan does inadvertently promote hatred due to the close correlation between hatred and the Sharingan.
But then again, in the story, it is shown that many Uchiha were not particularly fond of perpetuating hate and it is also implied that to avoid hatred, they sealed their emotions away. My interpretation is that they recognized the pain that hate could cause and then took steps to avoid it.
The Reincarnation Cycle
Sticking with Indra, another explanation that is frequently brought up is Indra's and Ashura's reincarnation cycle, which has also been described as curse-like or haunting and neverending. A fate seemingly set in stone.
There is not much more to say, other than that this theory suggests that Indra's reincarnates are just naturally inclined towards lusting for power.
The True Origin
Now, here's another thing that's constantly being overlooked. Aside from Obito's exposition in chapter 462 on the Curse of Hatred Nindo, Tobirama's exposition in chapter 619 on the Uchiha's tendency to follow said Nindo, and even Hagoromo's exposition on the reincarnation cycle in chapter 670, we get a vital piece of exposition in chapter 681.
Ladies, gentlemen, and anything in between. May I introduce to you...
...the real Curse of Hatred.
Or at the very least what I believe is the real reason why the "Curse of Hatred" exists in the world of Naruto.
From the very beginning, Zetsu approached Indra to take advantage of his hatred and turn it into a tool for his own purposes. He then did that again and again. He focused on the Uchiha in particular - Either because of the previously mentioned reasons (i.e. the Uchiha / incarnates have a tendency to become obsessed with hatred and power) or because the Uchiha were otherwise easy to take advantage of / manipulate (through Hagoromo's stone tablet that was left in the Uchihas' possession, an ill reputation thanks to Indra's / their ancestors' actions, etc).
In order to achieve his goal (awakening a Rinnegan), he had to somehow combine both Indra's and Ashura's power. It is implied that for this purpose, he instigated, perpetuated, and escalated wars and conflicts between Senju and Uchiha by pitting their reincarnates against each other. But unlike the wars he caused, Zetsu went unnoticed by the history books. Basically, he kept haunting the clans like a curse.
And without a doubt, had Zetsu never been there, 99% of the Uchihas' problems would not exist - regardless of what ideals, genes, or history the Uchiha hold. Indra's declaration of war, centuries of conflict, Madara's defection, Obito losing Rin, the Kyubi attack, the Uchiha massacre, Sasuke's defection, the 4th Great Shinobi War. All of these were directly caused by Zetsu or set off by a resulting chain reaction.
You could even think this further. Assuming the Uchiha clan really came across as "cursed", perhaps Tobirama's, Obito's, Hagoromo's and everybody else's explanations were just desperate attempts to make sense of anything. They didn't know that Zetsu was pulling the strings, so perhaps they tried to explain the Uchiha Clan's history in some other way. One that made sense without that missing variable.
What is actually going on here is, of course, uncertain. There are basically no definitive explanations on the matter and right now it looks like all of the above could be true and at the same time none.
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(wait for the season to come back to me tag)
“We still on for dinner this Thursday, or are you gonna reschedule again? Because I swear to god, Steve, I will break into your apartment and set up camp if I have to. It’s been years. Centuries.”
“It’s been a month, Henderson.”
“I barely remember who you are anymore. What’s your name again? How do I know you? We’re actually very happy with our current cable provider, thanks.”
God, that kid is such an asshole. Steve loves the shit out of him.
“Listen, I’ll see you on Thursday and explain everything, okay? Actually, uh—I’m kinda calling to give you a heads-up. Got some big news, so you should, like…brace yourself.”
Dustin’s quiet for a long, worrying moment.
“Steve. You have got to know that that’s the least helpful thing you could possibly say. You’re not even gonna give me a hint, man?”
“Wish I could. It’s not a bad thing, okay? Just big. Like…Upside Down big.”
“Okay, for my own peace of mind, I’m going to pretend you’re completely overreacting about the fact that you, like, got a dog or something.”
“I’m not—”
“Peace of mind, Steve! See you Thursday at my place! Don’t cancel or I’ll kill you!”
Steve’s left laughing into the dial tone. Honestly, he’d mostly called so Dustin couldn’t complain afterwards about not getting an advance warning. There’s just no way to hint at the whole Eddie thing without Eddie being present and accounted for; it would be the worst kind of cruel.
Steve can’t imagine what he’d have done to anyone who tried to tell him Eddie was alive without any kind of proof. It wouldn’t have been good.
“So we’re telling Henderson on Thursday?” Eddie jostles Steve’s shoulder. Steve thinks he’s been doing that a lot more lately.
“Seems like,” says Steve.
———
They take the train to Dustin’s place in Wilmette as soon as it gets dark out. Eddie’s bundled up in a nondescript hoodie and one of Steve’s denim jackets, looking like every other Chicagoan braced against the cool evening air.
They haven’t been going out all that much. Robin keeps asking if Eddie wants to do any tourist stuff, maybe the museums or something, but he always shrugs off the offers. Steve would’ve maybe expected him to want to get out and explore, now that he’s not cooped up anymore, but Eddie mostly seems to want to sleep, read, and watch TV.
Robin’s been on a campaign to educate Eddie about the ten years of pop culture he missed. “It’s essential for rehabilitation,” she says. Steve is pretty sure it’s just an excuse to make them rewatch all of Robin’s favorite movies, because some of the stuff she brings home was definitely already out in 1986.
Eddie draws the line at letting Robin show him music, though: “Nope, nuh-uh, no freaking way. I wouldn’t have listened to that shimmery synth shit if I’d been alive and free every single day of the last decade, and I’m not gonna listen to it now.”
Steve does have a few metal cassettes, but he feels weird about bringing them out. It feels like he’s crossing a line, somehow—admitting to something. So instead, they’d all traipsed over to the Tower Records a few blocks over, and let Eddie roam around sampling things.
To Steve’s surprise, Eddie hadn’t actually picked up that many metal albums. He'd grabbed the new Accept and some Alice in Chains, sure, but he also picked up Nirvana and Soundgarden. He had gotten into a conversation with a very helpful clerk that ended with the clerk scribbling a number on a business card and handing it over with a grin and a promise to make Eddie try some local act called Wilco next time.
Obviously Steve’s happy that Eddie’s making friends and charming people. He’s legitimately fucking thrilled that other people are finally seeing how great Eddie is, because Eddie deserves that. Eddie deserves the world, and if he wants to date some random clerk, he should get to.
It’s just that if Eddie Munson comes back from the dead to start dating some random clerk, Steve is going to have to go live at the bottom of Lake Michigan. That’s all.
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