#especially when their main argument is 'villain bad'

[haleigh-sloth]

I usually don’t share my specific thoughts about bnha but I need to get this thought out there so sorry if this is weird but….

Personally I think the thing most people forget about Shigaraki is that before anything, before afo before killing people Shigaraki was “taught” (abused into thinking) that every time he did something his father viewed as ‘heroic’ he was/would be punished for it cause it would be hurting the ones around him (it would affect his family). Of course this is the worst thing to be taught when you are 5 years old .

But this continued until his family was dead and then he met afo. Afo basically convinced this 5 year old child who was not in a position to tell him (afo) he was wrong and still had the idea of good thing = bad things going to happen, that heroism is bad and that as long as you are mad at the person you’re killing it’s fine (obviously not true but when you are 5 I don’t really think you would actually understand that it was wrong)

And then this way of thinking continued basically for like 15 years..

In simpler terms, afo seemed to convince him that, good thing/good deed = bad things going to happen/ no real benefit and, bad thing/bad deed = bad thing going to happen however you got treated badly therefore it’s ok if you do bad things too

the thing everyone’s needs to understand in my opinion is that people who talk about why villains think this/ that or people who just like the villains of the show, are not justifying that fact that they killed people but merely just explaining their thoughts/opinion of the matter and trying to get you to understand that when you are abused or/and manipulated it changes the way you think (not everyone can dramatically change their life the second they are not next to their abuser anymore)

((And in the end this show is. not. real! The villains did not kill a bunch of real innocent people, some people don’t seem to get that anymore and act as if that’s what happens…))

Sorry if there’s any mistakes in this, I kinda have trouble putting my thoughts into words that others understand heh. . . .

In response to this...

I mean, yes, I agree with everything here.

The reason I didn't dive into all of this is because, and I mean this in....some type of way...actually idk. There's no nice way to say this really.

Anybody who is just stuck on "They did bad things, they're evil because of this and they should die" is not worth arguing/debating/discussing things with for me personally.

I'm serious--I do not have the patience to explain the obvious to people who just don't care about these aspects of the villains. It's too tiring, and ultimately pointless because--they don't care.

If the conclusion someone has come to is "They killed people and they're bad and a sad backstory isn't an excuse and that's that", then I mean, I have nothing to say to counter.

Imo, everything you pointed out is very obvious, so anybody ignoring its importance is doing it intentionally and probably has no intention of changing their minds.

People write essays on tumblr about redeeming characters who do horrible things, why it's done in fiction, how it's done, how to tell when a character is set up for a redemption arc early on, but it doesn't matter. If someone doesn't want to accept a redemption arc in a character, there is nothing to be done.

I really do not mean to sound pretentious or anything....but honestly I don't have the energy or patience to explain old arguments that have been beaten into the ground and things that are just painfully obvious and shouldn't even have to be said (namely that none of these people are real and nobody has killed anybody--like I'm not gonna write an argumentative meta on that).

So yes I agree with everything you've said here, but I tend to intentionally leave these points out because if someone is still held up on the points you've made, I really don't have the patience to discuss with them.

[wlwitchofwhitestone]

I think what's frustrating me the most about what's going on in campaign 3 right now is that the main idea being talked about and given way too much emphasis runs counter to the theme of the m9. If the Nein were about the idea that you can become better no matter what you did or who you were before, the argument set forth and being entertained as a legitimate conflict right now is very "these guys did bad shit a thousand years ago and they should die. Somehow this is good for everyone despite the centuries of good they've done since." Ashton's point was extremely astute that if that's the case, cleanse the entire world motherfucker because we're no better, but the hypocrisy of that was neatly sidestepped (which is at least consistent with Ludinus and fascists of his ilk in general). It's not a real argument, guys. We're not meant to take him seriously.

The gods are the stewards of the only world anyone living has ever known. The fact that they made bad choices that hurt Ludinus and people he knew is a legitimate grievance. The gods are in fact flawed, capable of selfishness, but when confronted with the enormity of the damage they were causing this world, they removed themselves and a whole chunk of their power to seal themselves behind the divine gate. They didn't abandon the world. They didn't withdraw their power and sulk, leaving everyone without their gifts until they begged for a return. They simply care for mortals on the terms of those mortals and ask for nothing not freely given. The people who follow the gods find them worthy of that patronage and Ludinus does not get to erase the choice of everyone else who doesn't agree with him because he's hurt, even if he did have a point (he doesn't).

He thinks, for some reason, that his actions won't result in the same kind of harm on a global scale and completely ignores the damage he has already wrought in the name of a higher purpose because that's what the gods did and they're no better than him. But they are, dipshit. They are better than you. There are people in the world they may not be better than, salient point, but you're not one of them.

And after the light and love that was the core of the Nein - the very thing that shaped Essek into the campaign 3 NPC that he is - it feels extremely disingenuous for "do the gods deserve their power now that you've seen them at their worst" to be perceived as an actual, legitimate conflict in the endgame and a talking point in the Fandom. Especially when the Hells have already been pretty clear that they're not looking to be judge, jury, and executioner of the gods. This is not the central conflict of campaign 3, it's one dumbass's weird motivation to be a villain that needs to be stopped and the fact that it keeps coming up as anything approaching credible is a condemnation of the purity culture mindset in online spaces today.

[tiny-brain]

AIGHT HEAR ME OUT WITH THIS ONE

Okay, so group of friends, right? They're like, the main characters of their story and stuff, the main team we follow. One of them is a sizeshifter, and a pretty confident one at that. Their shifty abilities have gotten the group out of a lot of tough situations, and the group appreciates them for it, and tends to rely on them a lot for certain things (even if they can be a little arrogant and braggy about their abilities sometimes).

BUT THEN the tables get turned when the group's main villain figures out a way to neutralize the sizeshifter's abilities. When the group lets their guard down (maybe an argument that ends with the shifter storming off alone), they capture the shifter, forcing them to be stuck at a smaller size and imprisoning them. Now, the rest of the group has to find a way to rescue them, especially after seeing how incompetent they've become from relying on the shifter so much, and now not having them (plus they want to rescue and make up with their friend, obviously).

Eventually, through learning to make better use of their own talents and abilities, they manage to find and free their shifter friend. But now, the shifter still can't sizeshift, cause the effects the villain put on them haven't worn off yet. Which really sucks, cause the group were still kinda banking on them turning big so they could escape. Plot happens, but and eventually they do escape, but the entire time the shifter is just feeling utterly useless, and seeing how much they undervalued their companions before this.

In the end, the bad guy is obviously defeated, and the group learns a lesson about working together and pulling their own weight instead of relying solely on one person to get the job done, and the shifter learns a very important lesson about humility and appreciating their friends (and may also be slightly traumatized now, if the villain was the kind of person to torture prisoners in this story).

[lynnscove]

Endeavor really isn't THAT well written?

Like, I understand thinking that he is, because he's one of very few abusive characters that actually feels bad about what they've done. But in terms of well written characters in MHA? There's almost no one as lazily written as Enji. Even Rei (who has like 2 seconds of screentime) is better written than him, in her violent reactions to abuse, her fearful ones, and the way she goes back to Enji so easily after all that happened. Real victims usually find a sense of security or even comfort with their abuser after being seperated for a long time, because of how used to it they are/were.

His family members, ALLLLLL of them, are insanely well written, especially when it comes to Shoto and Touya (Natsuo, Rei and Fuyumi too, but they're not really main characters so..). While Endeavor is just, a side character in THEIR stories, up until the end when Hori started using his family as props for his atonement arc. (And personally, I think he should've had a different ending. Atonement is usually achieved by a perpetrator seperating themself from their victims, or doing something for their victims which ends their life. I think that he should've either

a) died in one of the wars, possibly protecting Shoto from Touya.

Or b) had a moment of realization post-war and put himself into police custody for abusing and neglecting his wife + his children, as well as for Touya's murder.

Him buying a house 4 his family to seperate himself from them seemed EXTREMELY out of character, especially considering how obsessive endeavor is, and how desperately he clings to his goals.

He flipped a switch once his children were all old enough to reject him and leave him, which is pretty realistic! That's what most abusive fathers do, especially in my experience. When their kids are young and unable to fight back, they'll be shitty, dismissive, almost ignorant. But once they turn 16/17/18, they realize their children are adults and CAN walk away from them, so they switch up and begin acting like they want a relationship with them.

Endeavor isn't BADLY written, he's actually a very realistic villain. But he's not amazingly written either, he's not unique, anyone with a mildly bad parent could write him 100 times over, hell, even someone with perfect parents could do a 5 second Google search and see all the irritating traits of an abusive father then throw em in a blender and turn up with endeavor.

He's just a good example for viewers, to show them that society never really changed after the war ended. He wasn't put in jail (despite no longer being the no.1), he didn't face any real consequences, other than having to face what HE did (as in.. hear what he did repeated back to him). The worst thing that happened to him was seeing his family be hurt.. which he caused! Self guilt is not punishment enough for someone who ruined multiple people's lives, and besides that, he was never even nice to the public. People who hadn't met him personally thought of him as some big awesome hero, obviously, but he was downright cruel aswell as childish towards police, fans and other heroes.

(Do NOTTT comment saying his punishment was being disabled💀 being in a wheelchair is no where's near as bad as a government dealt punishment. Especially when there's technology like compress' arm or Eri's quirk that could easily have him back on his feet.)

Criticism and argumentativeness will not be taken😇 (respectful conversation will be)

Anyways, in short, he's not well written, he's simple and not unique in any way, shape or form, but he's not HORRIBLY written. I just don't think he's so amazingly written that he could be anyone's fav based on his character alone. I feel like Enji fans just like him cause he's hot😞 which.. I don't judge u for. I see it (even tho I personally think he's an uggo‼️). I js don't like people who dismiss his actions or say "he wasn't that bad".

[zvtara-was-never-canon]

This person don't harass anyone in this post, so you are free to skip this ask if you find it against the rules of your blog. It's just that I find the arguments... bad, to say the least.

https://ok-boomerang.tumblr.com/post/702213312593772544/fanfiction-as-textual-analysis

If zutara fanfiction is a form of critique, then the alternatives they suggest should be better than the critisized ones? And yet:

Ambassador Katara - I don't know why but I suspect that the ambassador should not have any romantic affairs with the ruler of the country in which she represents the interests of her people. Because, you know, if these ineterests are opposite to the interests of the country, but the ambassador and the ruler are intimate... yeah, this will not end good. Such relationships are concidered unprofessional for a reason. It "gives Katara an important political role" - which she already has, being Avatar's waterbending master and one of the world heroes herself, as one of the previous asks already mentioned. So, what to fix here? Couldn't they just write fanfiction about Katara (without Aang in the plot, since they are too obsessed with their pathetic miserable Fantara whose will is paralyzed by Aang's sole presense) doing important political stuff? Or the real point is to wrap Katara in red silk, adorn her with gold and make her spread legs for Zuko in some fancy royal bedroom?

Bloodbending as healing - while the idea itself mmay have potential, Katara is not a suitable character for it (also was discussed here). Yes, her trauma probably limits her, closing some opportunities; hey, that is also an interesting idea, by the way! "That’s a critique of Katara seen as the paragon of goodness, especially by Aang." Hmm, as far as I know, Katara fans who don't ship zutara often admit that Katara can sometimes be wrong, mean, petty and enjoy how many-dimensional she is because of that. And where had Aang ever seen her as paragon of goodness? When he approved her stealing from pirates, while agreeing that it's dangerous for the group? I don't see what to critisize here in the first place. But I see some ignoring of Katara's canonical trauma.

Painted Lady/Blue Spirit. "it’s fun and symbolic that Zuko and Katara both had alter egos" - as well as Aang, Sokka, Toph... Also, the Blue Spirit never was a vigilante, which is obvious if you understand the complexity of Zuko's arc. Again, what is critique about? Katara and Zuko had worked as a team just enough, they had an episode with badass teamwork that zutarians love so much, they had a teamwork sequence in the training battle and a whole real final battle against one of the main villains. The show really doesn't need more (ahem, because it's not about zutara, ahem). Katara's empathy for people was shown multiple times (and she managed just great without any Zuko, btw), Zuko was not that empathetic most of the time to begin with. "their perseverance to do pretty much anything once they set their minds to it" was also developed really good - the only thing to "correct" is the fact that in the canon most of the time these things are different for Katara and Zuko and have nothing to do with the other character, but again, the show is not solely about them.

In conclusion, if fanfiction is a form of critique, it seems that from zutarians' perspective the major problem of AtLA is that it's not a love story about Katara and Zuko being always together, being similar in every little thing, being in love. Well, yes, it isn't? Because it shouldn't be?

Anyway, I myself am not a good critic, so I'd like to know your opinion.

"I myself am not a good critic" *proceeds to give excellent criticism* Anon, I think you should work on that self-esteem.

You really cut straight to the central issue with zutarians main "criticisms" of the show - they're all rooted on their bias that the story can ONLY be good if Zuko and Katara are in love and endgame. And somehow, that's objective to them, instead of a subjective preference. They can never admit "This isn't what I wanted, but it works" or even "This isn't perfect, but it doesn't ruin the story"

I very much wish we had seen Toph have a field-trip with Zuko, and that the writers had not given up on making an episode on Aang's parents. I still acknowledge that the show works fine without these, despite thinking it was a wasted oportunity.

I love Maiko. I think it perfects sense for them to be endgame, and I don't have much to criticize on how their relationship was handled in the show. Mai is still not my first choice of romantic pair for Zuko, Azula is. Yet I was not surprised or angry that my OTP didn't happen, because despite some bait moments (bedroom scene) it was very clear that the show was never going there - not just because it is a kids show, but also because they clearly didn't WANT to go there.

I love Azula and want her to have a redemption arc - I still think that the ending of the show, with her simply being defeated but not redeemed, makes sense, as it would feel cheap and be a deep betrayal of her character to just make her have a change of heart at the last second (though I'll still die on the hill that Yang's comics were ableist as fuck and a disrespect to the original story).

It's REALLY easy to have your preferences and stick by your opinion that they are good while still acknowledging they are SUBJECTIVE.

Zutarians refuse to do that. They don't accept any position of power for Katara that doesn't involve her sleeping with Zuko." They don't accept any romantic endgame for her other than Zuko. They don't accept that bloodbending doesn't represent her power, or her as a character, because she did it in Zuko's presence. Don't accept any team work between her and anyone but Zuko.

This is clear ship bias and lack of interest in Katara herself, and instead of embracing it (after all, there's no rule that say you HAVE to like every character equally, or uncondionally), they make it into a "the narrative disrespected this female character" or "certain things are inherently sexist" debate - a debate they're doomed to lose and come accross as the ones that are truly sexist since they clearly don't care about Katara outside the context of a potential romance with Zuko because they think that's the ONLY way to enjoy a female character: as the object of affection of their prefered male character. Anything else is imposssible in their minds.

They're saying the quiet part out loud without even realizing it.

[pinkeoni]

The Perception of Will Both In & Out of the Show

Right now I'm working on a whole post dedicated to looking at how Hawkins views Will, and something that I've noticed is how this in-universe perception is reflective of how the audience views him as a character.

Will the Crybaby vs. Will the Villain

tl;dr for a post I haven't even posted yet, but my assertion is that generally the town has two modes for how they see Will, prey or predator. He's either the sensitive, weak "fairy" who is assumed to be the target of violence based on these qualities, or he is the predatory "Zombie Boy" who is going to spread death and disease to the rest of the town.

Many of the critiques levied against Will's character from fans after season four was "all he does is cry!"

And in the same breath, after it was revealed that Will was going to be the focus for next season, the claim about Will's character was "he's going to be the villain!"

So Will is both the overly sensitive crybaby and at the same time, somehow going to be the villain of the final season.

I do think that GA opinion is actually more diversified then people give it credit for, so it would be inaccurate of me to say that this is widely agreed upon amongst fans of the show, although both of these statements, especially that of Will’s villain arc, did go around enough to be mentioned in articles about the season.

Starting with Will's sensitivity, it is one of his character traits. It's important enough for Joyce to mention this when describing him in episode one. Noah often gives Will really big reactions with weepy eyes and a quivering lip— he's a feeler!

Some push back against this critique of character, especially on here, was sometimes met with “But Will doesn’t cry that much! He’s tough! Look at this scene he knows how to shoot a gun!” which is kind of missing the point. It’s not that Will isn’t soft and sensitive, it’s that being soft and sensitive isn’t a problem.

The villain!Will claim, while maybe a fun idea for fanon material, seems to grossly mischaracterize him. Will, from the constant mistreatment he has faced, will turn vengeful and join Vecna to become a villain alongside him. You mean the same Will Byers who told D’Artagnan that he wasn’t going to hurt him? That Will Byers is going to seek revenge?

I don’t think that any of these takes are intentionally trying to be this way, but there is a subconscious undertone of homophobia coming from both of them. It’s a bad thing for Will to be soft and emotional, but he’s also going to become the vindictive “big bad.” The prey or the predator.

There seems to be a refusal from some fans to view Will in a hero role

This I can’t really fault them much for. I had a good back and forth with an anon awhile ago who stated that if the audience does not perceive the story as being Will's or Will as a main character, then this is a pitfall from the show. Which I agreed with. If the show is failing to communicate something, then this is a fault of the writing of the show. (I did, however, offer a counter argument to a claim they made saying that the show did not offer any substantial proof of this at all, in which I said that Will being the center in the first season was a good piece of evidence among some others)

I should note that I say "hero" but I don't mean this in a masculine way, just that Will is going to be the one to save the day, be that in his own way. He doesn't need to "man up" in order to be the hero.

El, for good reason, is seen as the hero of the story. If the next season is supposed to revolve around Will now, then he must either be A) A victim that El needs to save or B) A villain that El needs to defeat. (I made a post about El and Will's roles next season here)

This isn't always brought up, but a lot of the times the love triangle is talked about in relation to this because it goes along with the underlying homophobia. If Will is the focus next season and he is also the hero then there's an implication that he may be successful in "getting the guy" so to speak, just going off of typical narrative tropes. If El is the hero and Will is either the victim or villain then he either A) is saved by El and, out of gratefulness to her, is able to accept that that he won't have Mike and is able to accept the two being together (which wouldn't make sense considering this is the position he is already in) or B) El defeats the evil gay boy who is after her man, putting him in his place. These people can't seem to wrap their head around the possibility of Will getting the love interest in the end and El, still important to the main plot, ending up solo and it being a positive for both characters.

The problem with villain!Will especially is that, along with the fact that it relies on a mischaracterization of Will, is that there has to come a point where the villain has to lose and be put in their place in order for the hero to succeed. I see even fans of Will claiming that they want Will to have a villain arc because of everything that he's gone through. And yeah, Will has been through a lot and he has been treated unfairly by people around him, but he can't have a triumphant ending if he is the villain of the story.

I guess it has to do with framing. In simplified terms, Will, in some way, tries to fight for a better life for himself. If Will is the villain then he must learn to be complacent with the life he already has. If he is the hero, however, then he deserves and gets to earn this better life. If Will is the victim who is saved by El then he must learn to be grateful to her. Neither make sense for a story where Will is supposed to come of age. He has to be the hero and he also has to be one to save himself.

I want to say again that I'm not trying to use hero in a masculine sense, wherein I'm picturing a Conan the Barbarian or Rambo-esque buff!byers fighting in the Upside Down, but rather I just mean using his qualities that others deem weak as his strength. Will is the hero, just in his own way. @therainscene had a really great addition to a similar post I made while I was drafting this one. To quote a genius mind—

It's wild that Will is seen as weak, because he's the toughest motherfucker in the show -- not in spite of being soft and sensitive, but because of it. Being a sensitive gay boy in 1980's America is playing life on hard mode: he's punished for refusing to conform to traditional masculinity, both in-universe and by the audience, and his response is to doggedly continue refusing to conform. He's crying and throwing up the whole time he's doing it but he just keeps on doing it.

[dexdia]

Highly considering doing a Seven Deadly Sins rewrite myself bc man there's so much missed potential and honestly a lot of things that don't make sense or haven't been gone over enough-

My biggest gripe being the Goddess race, we barely know anything about them, the archangels were said to be oh-so-strong but 3 of them died not to long after being introduced- And my biggest gripe is that the author definitely pulled that "Bloody Ellie" thing out of his ass during the fight with Demon King Zeldris.

Like man, even the Demon race feels so lacklustre..

Oh! And don't get me started on Chaos!! Especially since its literally the entity that gets put into Arthur who's the main antagonist and villain of the sequel series!!!

Like, I'm pretty sure we don't know about chaos until it's actually revealed,,

Like in my mind, if I was to add/redo things- One of the things I'd do is make the Supreme Deity into a religious figure, being praised as the "Benevolent Goddess" among humans, setting up basically a religion- And maybe this could stem into the magic, such as human believing that the magic they hold was a blessing of the Supreme Deity.

And maybe also set up a clearer hierarchy system among the Goddess and Demon race.

I just want the Goddess race and Supreme Deity herself to play a bigger role cause man I don't really like how she was defeated within like the final 20 minutes of that one film.

Because I think it'd be so interesting to have humans actively worshiping the Goddess race, specifically dedicated to the Supreme Deity and the archangels.

Also, I'd have Chaos introduced a lot earlier- who knows, maybe I could throw in like a group that are worshippers of Chaos.

Tbh I'm just spit balling but it's mostly bc I'm so frustrated at simply how bad the author is at writing- Cause I feel like a lot of the time, he throws in ideas just because he thinks it's cool and doesn't elaborate and explore said ideas.

As I mentioned earlier, the whole "Bloody Ellie" thing ( a character who was established a pacifist in the Gloxinia + Drole flashbacks thing) as well the thing with Helbram where he talked about how fairies were captured and had their wings torn out (I believe we never hear anything about it again after Helbram tells us it), honestly many things.

Also, I just thought of another thing I'd change- Instead of having Derieri, Tarmiel and Sariel die useless deaths, I feel like we could've had Ludociel fight Esta/Mael when the Mael reveal happened bc I feel that would've been so much more impactful-

Because imagine, Ludociel finally fights the person who he thought "killed" his brother and before he goes for the finishing blow, the spell corrodes away and Ludociel is left with the shock and horror that he nearly killed his own brother.

And one more thing or else I'll be ranting forever, have Meliodas' and Elizabeth's relationship questioned and have them actually have to go through challenges

Have people question as to whether or not it was their relationship that trigger started the holy war, have other characters question the way he acts towards current Elizabeth, have Elizabeth have questions herself and wonder if the war was worth it- Let them have arguments!!

I think the only one they technically had was when Elizabeth wanted to rejoin the adventure at the start of season 2 if my memory serves me right.

But yeah.

It's just those little tweaks and add-ins that really begin to flesh it out to its potential, imo.

Anyway, rant over before I continue ranting up to 30k+ words more.

[rawliverandgoronspice]

hey! do you have any thoughts on demise as a looser/more fluid/symbolic/metaphorical figure in the context of the story of the series- like thoughts on what he represents, and stuff like what his curse could mean thematically rather than the more essentialistic absolutistic "literal satan" interpretation that most of the (at least western) audience seems to take?

i know he may be somewhat contentious as a choice introduced by the writers especially considering from an outside perspective what he kind of did to the majority of fandom analysis and discourse, but i've been thinking about how it's quite possible the writers had a more paganistic approach to what it means to be a deity and how demise doesn't even really have a NAME so much as he is supposed to be some sort of manifestation/personification of the concept of demise, and maybe also of hatred, and also i don't know, like, what the point of that hatred is or why there has to be demise/what implications there could be of this worldbuilding

hope that was coherent enough to make sense of anything i just said but yeah i was just curious if you do!

Heyy sorry never replied, replying now!! Thanks for the ask!

Yeah it's exactly how I'm taking Demise, and I think what you mention connects more to what little I know and understand of shintoism.

In French, Demise has an absurdly long name and is basically called "The Avatar of the Void", which I think is... interesting? It makes me extremely curious as to how Demise is called in original japanese --because to me, "Void" is about the absence of things more than their destruction. It's about the absence, not the inevitability of things crumbling down that comes with Demise. I don't know which of these concepts are the closest to the original vision (if it's Void rather than Demise I think it recontextualizes everything we thought we know about this world and characters, but in my opinion it feels too incoherent with the rest of the world, so my guess is that it was a poorly thought-out translation --but I might be wrong!), but to me it's all in the title: Demise. The curse is that every golden era must end with a reckoning.

I think the curse is extremely compelling in that mythological sense, the way Demeter and Persephone's tale is about the joy and pain of passing seasons; it's the given cause for this world's fate as it is condemned to rise and die continuously; and that their eternal, bright future will always be opposed. To be honest, I'm not even sure it's a *bad* thing. Conflict is not only inevitable, it needs to rise to the surface instead of being suppressed to ensure things do not remain stagnant and shortcomings are being acknowledged and addressed --which is also partially why the suggestion of TotK's golden forever after really doesn't sit right with me, especially since nothing was learned and nothing truly changed in the course of its runtime.

I think the curse sucks when people think it means that Ganondorf is a generic evil demon man without motive of his own. It especially grinds my nerves since I somehow never hear this argument being made for *any* other villain in the franchise. I know they look alike the most (and TotK didn't help matters here), but I never *ever* saw people arguing that Vaati doesn't have motive, for example. Or Majora. Or Zant. Or even literal nothing characters like Bellum, who by all means looks more like a primal demonic evil acting on instinct than anyone else. Somehow, we get to assume they have internal motives that, while obviously wicked and self-serving, are their own! But somehow, Ganondorf, the actual main antagonist of his series with the most amount of games hinting at his backstory and internal moral code, gets flattened as an evil puppet with no internal life whatsoever. It's genuinely bizarre.

Anyway sorry sorry! Thanks again for the ask!

[featherstorm2004]

All For One's death

I am a little confused at some of the disappointment I've seen directed at the latest chapter or well chapters, more at how Horikoshi has handled All For One. Because, I don't see how this could have gone differently given the current circumstances but to organise my thoughts I will start with the first arguments I've been seeing.

"I am upset that All For One went out the way he did"

This one I can kind of understand since with the reveal of his backstory, he has successfully (in my eyes) become one of the most complex and well thought out characters in bnha. However, due to the fact that it was revealed so late it meant that for the people who had just gotten attached to him or the people who had been craving this character development for a long time, it meant we had a short time to enjoy it and his character fully before he died.

And that kinda sucks and I get that, I wish that this backstory was revealed sooner like I would have had it revealed in the vigilante arc where Deku was exploring why villains are the way they are, maybe we could have had both All For One and Yoichi narrate it as Deku was getting used to his vestiges and Shigaraki and All For One were fused. But I understand why that didn't happen since it was clear that Horikoshi was experiencing burnout after writing the monster of an arc that was the war, plus I'm pretty sure he was dealing with a new editor/manager which couldn't have been fun.

In a perfect world Horikoshi would've taken a nice long break after the war arc and then started working on the next arcs but sadly that didn't happen. But I'm happy we got this backstory at all since it's clear he's been rushing to finish the manga as soon as possible (which I can't blame him for) and I'm glad to see he cared enough about All For One as a character to make it crystal clear why he is the way he is and that despite everything that he is in fact human.

As for the people who are mad that he's not the main villain, I'm not really sure what to tell you. Yes he is a really cool character/villain and it might have been cool to see him in all his big bad glory but this has never been his story; it's been stated over and over again that All For One and by extension All Might's time in the limelight is over, this is Deku and Shigaraki's story not theirs. Since the beginning it's been made abundantly clear that bnha is a story about successors and the legacies they carry and if you wanted a story about their predecessors then you're reading the wrong manga.

Which brings me to the next complaint I've heard, people that are upset that All For One was included in the first place.

I can understand this to a point, I too was upset when All For One barged in and tried to steal Shigaraki's thunder, it was frustrating I can admit that. But I also wasn't too surprised after all it was an incredibly in character thing for All For One to do and Horikoshi needed a believable way to handicap Shigaraki so the hero's had the slightest chance of winning, and vestiges had already been long established in this world.

But most importantly there needed to be a reason for Deku to believe that Shigaraki needed saving and to want to do so in the first place, and being forcefully possessed by the most evil man in history is a pretty good motivation to save someone.

And to be honest there was no way that Horikoshi could get away with not using All For One at all after there had been so many hints and foreshadowing to him eventually breaking out of prison, people would have lost their minds if he had never been included. Especially after he had been built up as this master manipulator who had warped Shigaraki's mind for years and had been pulling the strings of Japans underworld for a century.

It would've been seen as the worlds biggest missed opportunity so, I think Horikoshi handled it the best way he could've whilst keeping the integrity of his characters and the main theme's of the story intact.

And I think it was probably for the best that we spent that time deconstructing the myth that was the villain All For One because in my eyes he really didn't fit in the world of bnha; which has spent it's entire story exploring how people aren't born good or evil and that bad people can choose to change if they want to and that good people can also do bad things. So, to have this pure evil villain who was just born that way didn't really mesh well with the tone and message of the story, he needed to be brought down a peg or two to be made more human in order to fit in and I think Horikoshi succeeded in that.

Now that I'm thinking about it, that's probably the reason I never cared for All For One at the start as I could sense that he didn't belong in this world. And I didn't start getting invested in him until he started falling apart because suddenly he made sense in the narrative, but that's just my opinion. I'm not saying that pure evil villains can't be fun or thematically appropriate, just not for this story.

But yeah those are my thoughts of All For One's death at the moment I'll probably do more meta's about it later but I wanted to respond to the complaints I've been seeing.

[jaydenix]

W.I.T.C.H Fucking Sucked, change my mind

Oh look, another Winx Club fan who hates W.I.T.C.H, as if the world hasn't seen enough of those

But seriously, I saw absolutely nothing in this show that was really worthwhile. It's very boring and I enjoyed almost none of it. Honestly surprised I was able to finish all 52 episodes but I was very glad to be done in any case.

So like, let's talk about the main cast, the W.I.T.C.H in W.I.T.C.H if you will, and so if you will, let's talk about Will and co. (I am such poetry): Honestly the main five don't feel compelling at all, I take almost no interest in any of them as individuals. All it seems this show is focussed on is showing what they do as Guardians for the most part. Like, we never really see any emotional development with them, how being a Guardian affects their life or the pressure of trying to keep their identities hidden or prevent the bad guys from winning. We don't see of any of that and this just makes them such uninteresting characters. To be honest, they barely even have different personalities. I don't think I can point to a single thing that makes Irma much different from Hay Lin for instance, like they just all feel the same with only minor differences. Cornelia is the one exception as the blonde brat type similar to Stella (Winx) and Sasha (Amphibia), and she's probably my favourite just because of that, but that's not good grounds for a favourite character, it's just winning by default because of low competition.

The episodes also feel very intentionally separated and on their own. I get it's an episodical show but sometimes the characters can be so sporadic it feels like every episode was written by a different person with no synchronisation, characters feel so weirdly different from episode to episode sometimes, and the show regularly has arguments will happen for the dumbest reasons and I just argghh I hate it. This show sucks.

A few other characters that exist: -Blunk is like moderately funny at times -Caleb is... okay I guess he exists -Phobos is an alright villain but he just kinda sits around and waits and doesn't do anything, doesn't really come off as very threatening but there's not too much to hate about him per se -Nerissa is definitely a pretty threatening villain and learning about her backstory and plans and stuff was one of the more fun parts of the show for sure -Most of the characters in the rebellion don't feel very interesting tbh

Also the amount of times this show does stuff like very obviously in public view despite the fact it's still a secret just feels really weird, they've done so much that so many would've spotted them by now it made no sense.

Oh also the opening song is pretty banger I'll give the show that. "WE ARE, WE ARE, WE ARE W.I.T.C.H" it goes so hard

OKAY SPOILER TERRITORY NOW SKIP TO THE END IF YOU DON'T WANNA BE SPOILT:

Now it's time to talk about probably my biggest issue with this show, and that is Elyon, I hate everything about her. In the first half of season 1 we barely see her at all, which is insane because what happens next with her is easily the most important thing to happen at that point in the show. She goes onto join Phobos and it's discovered that she is actually his sister, which I think was pretty obvious throughout most of the first half of season 1. In any case, HOLY FUCKING SHIT THIS NEEDED MORE TIME LIKE WHAT THE FUCK. Elyon's departure felt so one-sided and rushed on two major fronts. The first was her grievances over being left out by W.I.T.C.H. This one is annoying because we only see a few instances of this happening, when Elyon was clearly way more important than that in the grand scheme of things, she should've been obviously left out way more and become more frustrated without answers. We see a little bit of this but not enough, like there should've been a lot more moments of W.I.T.C.H (and especially Cornelia) having to cover up why they didn't show up for things or had to leave and she knows they're lying but doesn't know the full story, it's a common trope but it would work. Additionally, being distrustful of her parents, when they appear IN THE SAME EPISODE SHE FUCKS OFF TO MERIDIAN, like we're just expected to accept that? Not like see what they've done to raise her slowly but surely and eventually decide to take matters into her own hands especially when her friends are unreliable but no she instead runs away with the creepy librarian who has gaslit her into distrusting anyone else??? Fuck off, this whole plot of Elyon in the first half of S1 is just so poorly planned, it needed WAY more attention that the show could have afforded if it chose to focus on what was actually important but of course not. And it only gets worse from here.

Elyon after this becomes so obnoxious in the way she speaks and acts. She talks like she's in some fucking play of sorts with this grandiose way of speech and it's so frustrating, and also she acts so annoyingly loyal to the sleazy guy who apparently is her brother with basically no hesitation. I probably wouldn't mind this as much if her departure felt actually justified and fleshed out but of course that's not the world we live in. God I hate Elyon so much.

Otherwise I will say I did not see Caleb being Nerissa's son at all. Nerissa being a former Guardian and trying to recruit her old friends is pretty cool. Also when she kidnaps Matt and transforms him into that guy was a bold move, I like when villains get personal like this it makes them feel very threatening, Nerissa is definitely makes season 2 better for sure, though that doesn't mean it's that good.

The ending of the show was kinda strange with them bringing back Phobos thinking that would go swimmingly and then he gets eaten by his green monster friend and then everything happens it was a very odd ending that I felt extremely neutral on. Like it's just kinda there, what you see is what you get. But I was glad about one thing that this show was over, I didn't want to watch it anymore lol, I didn't really feel excited that the characters overcame something because it just didn't feel like there was anything to care about, I wish this show didn't suck so bad.

END OF SPOILERS

So yeah, this show is not that good, it has some okay moments but most of the show is boring, uneventful, and poorly written. I do know about the comics and I haven't actually read them I've only watched the show, maybe those are better and I know only a small amount of them got adapted for TV. But from what the show gives me, it's not great

I give season 1 like a 4/10 and season 2 like a 5/10 so 4.5/10 is my personal rating for W.I.T.C.H.

I've been very negative about this show but to be totally honest I didn't want to be, I was genuinely excited going in knowing it was similar to Winx Club, hoping to remind me of what made me like that show so much in the first place, but I was quickly hit with the reality this show was just not great, though since then I rewatched Winx Club S1 and I can say I definitely don't like it as much as I did before, Winx S1 had always been my favourite season but pending my rewatch of the others I think there's a good chance that could change. It seems since I last was into Winx I've learnt how media analysis works, I can take that. Anyway, that's my opinion of W.I.T.C.H.

P.S: Pls don't hate me this is just my opinion if you like this show and I know plenty of people do it's totally okay we can all like what we like and dislike what we dislike and I just happen to not like W.I.T.C.H very much OKAY? Have a good day.

[enden-k]

Can I ask what makes Arlecchino evil? I'm v much a villain enjoyer and like some morally greyness, but I genuinely didn't pick up on a lot of bad stuff with Arlecchino. She was super helpful during Fontaine and seemed to be the only powerful person who cared about helping the common folk when the water levels were rising.

I'm not here to start an argument, just wanna expand my view 🙏

dw didnt think u want to argue! i will also use this to say i wont tolerate arguments, this goes for everyone here

i will talk about sensitive themes under the cut (mentions of when i was groomed/emotionally abused by my adoptive father/mentions of abuse/grooming in general) so if someones not good with this, be warned please and dont click for your emotional comfort.

i really love arlecchino (theres also difficult, personal reasons ig) and id rather wait for her to arrive to get more information than we have so far through other characters/side quests/main quest but well.

her goals aligned with ours in the fontaine quest which is why we have the impression shes a good/nice person, especially considering our other meetings with the harbingers we met so far (signora, childe, scara, dottore) and the situations. shes very calm and diplomatic (lets see how it changes in the next update when we fight her)

but we shouldnt forget how the travellers on their toes the entire time/everytime they come in contact with arle. its because shes a harbinger after all. shes a danger. her graceful politeness and calmness is supposed to have you on guard, make your hairs rise. shes mentioned to be manipulative and shes manipulating others to achieve what she wants by being nice and calm. she has ulterior motives. we should be careful. this is my impression based on my own gaming experience and idk if it was the same w others, but bc of us being on guard around her i was always prepared for her to turn on us until the end of the main quest.

anw, arle is supposed to be intimidating and have you wary. even tho she comes off as nice and polite, having done good and helped in the main story. its bc thats what she wanted and you happened to have the same goal. also lets not forget scaras and childes thoughts about her which already tells a lot

she has two sides. the one we saw in the quest, the graceful, calm, polite face to get what she wants. and the other, the one scara and childe talk about here, the one they call "crazy"

not to mention her codename, "the knave". what does it mean? servant. what else does it mean? "dishonest/deceitful man". basically, swindler. isnt it perfect?

shes manipulative and whatever her "true" nature is, we dont know (yet). she may have "good intentions" here or there but will achieve them no matter what it takes.

as for the thing you can consider as bad; the house of the hearth is an orphanage that raises children into fatui agents. only those who have potential join the ranks while the others are kept close (its not known whats done with them afaik). theyre basically grooming/raising child soldiers/spies.

before the sensitive stuff comes up, for the ppl who dont want to proceed, arlecchino fools/manipulates you into thinking shes a nice person/good parent. its amazing and so in character for her. its also scary how some ppl cant see the abuse/manipulation unless you went through this too or well. just actually read and realize it.

arlecchino is an emotionally manipulative parental figure. now, this is coming from someone who went through heavy abuse/was groomed by their adoptive father who was extremely manipulative and i spot so many things very well known to me. others who went through the same get this feeling. these signs you immediately recognize.

you get punished for the tiniest mistakes and when you get loved, it makes you forget all that was done to you, just for that tiny bit of affection you crave. you try to do your best, to do everything asked and expected of you, not to disappoint the only parent you have and youre dependent on, to be a good kid deserving of love and when you slip up youre in shambles. there was a time i did a tiny mistake by accident and my father said to me in the coldest voice "you broke my trust" and i remember so vividly how it broke me, how i cried until i got sick. i was physically abused before and none of it hurt me more than this. it still gets to me after all those years. emotional manipulation is cruel

what im trying to say is, she came in a time of need. taken as a savior while it just is one abuser swapped out with another. like my adoptive father having me dependent, giving me love i never received and being everything i wanted, making me believe hes everything i need, a common thing abusers do. wanting to do everything youre asked of and do it good, the fear of disappointing and being punished, believing you deserved it bc its your fault and treating your abuser like a savior, being conditioned. this is whats happening.

now, arle genuinely loves and protects her children; its very clear that the life of the children matter to her the most (look at childes line and freminet/lynette etc) - she was one of them too after all. so, its possible to love and still do these. moral greyness etcetc

anyway idk if its understandable or if i can explain it in proper words while maintaining a good distance so ill add the voicelines of the siblings heavily implying this, and also a tweet adressing this that brings it to proper words, better than i can say

tweet here bc tmblr doesnt insert the link properly

[fujoshiwarrior]

limbus company 1 am (edit: now 2 am) ramblings (massive spoilers abound for canto v)

these are just some quick sleep deprived thoughts, and my analysis could be better, but i feel like talking about it anyway

i saw a post in the main tag talking about why the op really disliked canto v, and i don't wanna get into an argument and i don't want to vague the op in a way that makes it seem like im attacking them because im not, i just wanna talk about why i disagree with them

i don't think canto v was perfect or the best canto but i thought it was absolutely incredible (yes i did cry during the final boss fight), and i agree that starbuck and queequeg deserved way more screentime and development than they got (i also think the adaptation of queequeg from moby dick to limbus was woefully clumsy, which might have have been remedied by more time with her, though i still love limbus!queequeg)

however, i wholeheartedly disagree on ahab as a villain. i thought she was amazing. even if she doesn't really have any shades of gray to her, i think the point is that a lot of horrible, evil, selfish people genuinely believe what they are doing and their behavior is right and justified. furthermore, she was completely and utterly steeped in delusion and obsession to the detriment of herself and every single person remotely in proximity to her.

i need to say first that i've never read moby dick unfortunately, so i can't comment too much on limbus!ahab vs book!ahab. what i do know is that just like in limbus, ahab's obsession leads to the demise of every single crew member with ishmael as the sole survivor. since i haven't read moby dick, i had to consult sparknotes for a profile of book!ahab, and it describes him as much of a victim as he is an aggressor---however, i'll touch on that in a bit.

what i want to bring attention to is that both book and limbus ahab are characterized by sheer hubris, pride, and a god/savior complex. i want to bring attention to another classical literature character who is characterized by hubris and who also spends the entire novel on a ship: victor frankenstein.

this comparison might seem like it's coming from left field, but i promise i have a point. also, while i don't think limbus!ahab was overtly inspired by victor frankenstein, considering how obsessed pm is with literature i think there is a very low chance that kjh or at least one of the writers haven't read frankenstein. see also the parallels between angela and the monster/ayin and frankenstein in lobotomy corporation and library of ruina (especially library of ruina, where there is a direct connection between angela and lucifer related imagery, who the monster is also associated with). frankenstein ends with victor, after telling his, encouraging the sailors not to give up on trying to find a new passage channel in spite of the fact they will probably die doing so---victor has not learned his lesson, and now he's luring a group of sailors to their deaths.

ahab is so full of herself and so egocentric that even when she was facing the death of her very "self" (or...ego) she did not falter in her delusions, not even at the very, very end, and was happy to continue the cycle. the point i'm trying to make here is that a character being unambiguously bad and selfish doesn't necessarily make for a bad or uncomplicated character. i will concede though that op again has a point with the lack of screentime with ahab means that she didn't have the time to prove her complexities.

this brings me to canto v's ending. in the post credits scene, we saw the ahab somehow survived the collapse of the white whale (this is just speculation, but i think it has something to do with her ego awakening---judging off the cg art, i would guess the ego fused with the pallidification from the whale or nullified it entirely...or both maybe). i was initially disappointed by this.

however, we know very little about hermann's crew. as op touched on, and as i have touched on, ahab had little screentime and not a lot of character development. her now being a member of hermann's crew gives ample opportunity for further development of her character---i think we'll see why exactly she became so obsessed with the whale and why she is the way she is (the aspect of ahab as a victim, i imagine there's a deeply personal reason why the decided the whale was the source of all evil)

this leads to me another point op mentioned: ishmael sparing ahab.

op talks about this as a bad thing. i STRONGLY disagree.

the name of the game here is obsession. ishmael's new ego for this season is even named "blind obsession". from the 4.5 event, we saw that this obsession has been tearing her apart. several people theorized after that event, and during this canto, that she was for sure going to distort. the fact that she had a distortion effect behind her battle sprite made lots of people (including me) extremely confident that she would distort and be the boss of this chapter (outis said in part 1 that lcb doesn't need all 12 sinners to operate and you only use half in battle anyway).

if ishmael had killed ahab, she would have given into her obsession and may have *actually* distorted if she did. and she would have proven ahab completely and utterly right.

ishmael stealing away the opportunity to be the one to kill the pallid whale from ahab and leaving her to rot inside the collapsing whale with that knowledge is the best possible punishment ahab could have gotten.

that's why i didn't like the fact that ahab had survived, it felt like it defeated the point of ishmael's development and the canto itself. i changed my mind because the point of ishmael's character development was letting go of her obsession and being free from ahab, and ahab doesn't need to be dead for her to do that. and her involvement with hermann's group means an opportunity for a bigger and better comeuppance since she's probably going to have a new obsession soon enough.

[ebisul]

TCW Rewatch: Season 2 Episodes 12-15

The dreaded mandalore arc post. Im going to be upfront, if you dont like me slandering Satine just dont even read the post. Turn back now. I’m not going to engage in dumb arguments. If you want to comment be civil.

I try to be as objective as I can writing these. I call it as I see it even when i do like the character. However I also recognize the tone can come across as aggressive, its not meant to be I just Talk Like That.

Anyways, enjoy!

Episode 12: The Mandalore Plot

* Obi wan sent to Mandalore to investigate rumors about a secret army built for the separatists

* “All of our warriors were exiled to concordia. They died out years ago” thats fucking weird. Like if we’re talking just Death Watch thatd be whatever they’re terrorists but all of the warriors?? What about Satine’s Guard? Do they not qualify as warriors? Or are they allowed because they’re Satine’s warriors

* Amec awfully defensive about Jango Fett being mandalorian. “Jango Fett was a common bounty hunter. How he acquired that armor is beyond me” what exactly makes someone Mandalorian or not?

* Satine is so hostile just as soon as she enters. That doesnt look good for your case, Duchess, considering you want to prove you have no intent of turning against the Republic. bad political decision.

* Sabateur is mandalorian. Amec really going hard on the denial "no mandalorian would engage in such violence. not anymore" babe you have Video Evidence of the exact opposite

* Satine assumes this whole thing is because the Senate wants to intervene in the affairs of Mandalore

* wild assumption considering obi wan has done nothing thusfar outside of try to get answers for his investigation. awfully presumtuous and honestly arrogant all things considered

* get her ass, kenobi

* i find it so hard to believe these two are supposed to have been in love

* Ok so now you mention Death Watch, not earlier when you were throwing around baseless accusations where that information could have been necessary??

* "its hardly a movement" a small group of hooligans typically doesnt warrant secret officials rooting them out. all this tells me is that she knows about death watch and refuses to do much of anything ab it. what does she plan to do with the investigation?

* The separatists want to help overthrow satine

* Satine trying to lecture Obi Wan on peacekeeping and Jedi ideals is fucking audacious. “The job of a peacekeeper is to make sure that conflict does not arise” and what when conflict does? You cant always prevent conflict. The conflict is already there so arguably Obi Wan has a more understandable and realistic point of view here.

* Also terribly ironic that an act of terrorism occurs as they are having this conversation. This isn’t Peace. Its ignorance.

* “Hooligans couldnt have arranged an attack of this scale” “It must be an offworlder” denial is going to get your people killed

* Side note: the sheer amount of blonde white people makes me so uncomfortable for this to be an idyllic state of peace for mandalorians. Especially when any mandalorians we see who are poc are stripped of their mandoness, or cult members (this is in reference to Jango and Din, im uncertain of what sabines family’s political views were)

* Damn

* That man shot at obi wan while he was trying be diplomatic ab it would she blame him for self defense? Thats fucked up especially bc shes totally cool with self defense when she does it

* Obi wan got hands

* She is being so suspicious

* She criticizes him every chance she gets, and rather unfairly too

* What do you mean they’re supposed to be in love? They dont even act like they Like eachother. Obi Wan has had kinder interactions with most of his main villains

* The pre vizla death watch entrance is unfortunately kinda badass

* The dark saber having a different sound effect scatches the brain

* Obi Wan (correctly) believing the separatists are supporting Death Watch and Satine immediately saying no i want no part in that conflict is weird. Like thats not a decision you make. You joining the clone war is not what hes talking about, The Death Watch dont care about what you want. I dont even know how she turned this conversation into a “i wont be part of this war and you wont convince me” discussion when he literally didn’t say anything of the sort

Episode 13: Voyage of Temptation

* I didnt even notice the scene of Satine expectantly waiting for Obi Wan to kiss her hand last episode until this episodes recap. I hate it that feels condescending

* This is where they start revealing that they had or have feelings for eachother and I simply Cant See It

* The way she talks down to obi wan constantly and even seats herself above everyone else like bro have literally any fucking respect for others outside of yourself

* The spider droid deaths are already so dark

* “Even extremists can be reasoned with” Duchess YOU are an extremist and you clearly can’t be reasoned with, just because your extremism isnt violent doesnt make it not extreme

* And again pacifism is ineffective in the face of an uncaring enemy, you fight or you die

* Im only like 1/4 of the way through this episode

* I feel like they try to push obitine so hard it just falls flat for me because their negative interactions outweigh any positive ones

* Anakin seems to really be pushing Obi Wan to have feelings for Satine but it comes across as Anakin projecting his worries about his relationship with Padme onto Obitine, because if Obi Wan can do it its okay that he can. Except Obi Wan doesnt, he lets it go

* Ooh creepy clone puppet scene

* I love when star wars tries to be spooky scary

* “Just because im a pacifist doesnt mean i wont defend myself” you mean like how last episode you said if obi wan had killed that guy you would blame him even tho he was just defending himself?

* Also Another assassination attempt… surprising…

* “This line of questioning borders on torture” arguably no it doesnt??? What harm is it causing? Emotional distress is already caused by the fact that there is a traitor present releasing the droids in the first place

* Senator Merrik was on Mandalore with Satine, is he from Mandalore? Who is this guy? Hes the Senator for Kalevala in the Mandalore system

* The fact that Satine could be betrayed by literally every single one of her close colleagues is honestly telling of how her peace was just a facade used by her enemies to blindside her.

* Merrik looks so disturbed ab Satine suddenly confessing her love

* Me too

* Also the fuck you mean youve loved him ever since? Youve been treating him like shit this whole time???

* At least the distraction worked, as uncomfortable as it made me

* Merrik, as shitty as he is, makes a decent point about if Satine shoots him or not, She’s politically backed herself into a corner

* “Who will strike first and brand themselves a cold-blooded killer?” Enter Anakin

* I do think had Anakin not been there Obi would have done it for the greater good, or found a less fatal way about it

* Yes Cody, please interrupt the moment

* Why did her attitude change so drastically at the end?

Episode 14: Duchess of Mandalore

* So Death Watch has the means to attack Mandalore and if Satine allows Republic occupation then Death Watch’s attack puts them in the people of Mandalore’s good graces allowing them to usurp Satine

* Obviously palps wants to do this for a power grab, Jerek could well have been another of Satine’s allies betraying her although im not so sure. He calls for Republic assistance against Death Watch becasue he sees them as a threat, calling out the Pride of the government to not ask for assistance from the Jedi.

* Either way this could have gone, it would always end the same because to maintain peace you have to Fight for it. That doesnt mean you have to be violent but you cant be ignorant of it either

* Arguably Satine is correct about the Republic occupation making them a target for the war and she has the right to remain neutral but what exactly is her alternative plan to deal with Death Watch

* Those guards of hers dont seem very pacifistic

* Damn friend zoned lmao

* So far Satine in this episode is at least more tolerable and I understand where she’s coming from

* What the republic is doing IS wrong but shes not offering an alternative to stopping Death Watch to protect her people

* Isnt she allied with 1500 other systems or something like that? Why did she go to the Senate at all?

* Thats underhanded(holding the vote without Satines presence or knowledge)

* Ok assassination yet again

* Running away is not the most intelligent decision from an innocent woman

* Neither is attacking the police

* I feel like this could have been avoided

* Ok thats a cool scene

* So are there warriors on Mandalore or not? You arent going to combat them effectively without a fight, its unrealistic.

* “The temerity to stand strong in the name of peace” so what exactly is the plan to protect the people of Mandalore from Death Watch. You can’t just say nuh uh and expect them to back down and submit to pacifism, they keep saying theyll stand strong but they haven’t mentioned anything about what exactly they will do to stand strong against Death Watch

* Mandalore escapes Republic occupation

Episode 15: Senate Murders

* A group of senators want to escalate the production of troops, Padme and her allies recognize this will prolong the war and is working against it

* Padmes enemies are accusing her of separatist conspiracy, if this gets out to the rest of the senate she is absolutely fucked

* Ono assassinated, they actually succeeded this time

* Where do i know this lieutenants voice? Its grating just like his personality, no offense to the va

* Mothma and Bail both act like parental/older sibling figures to padme, im a whore for that shit

* I wish I could hate this guy more but the dracula vibes go too hard im sorry

* Oh shit dracula is dead as hell

* I do love a good murder mystery, idk why i was so apprehensive about this episode

* Is it Lolo?

* As much as Burtoni sucks, i do believe her when she says she doesnt give a single fuck enough to kill these people, she just has that vibe

* Yeah i knew it

* Ono made the decision he did because the Rodians were starving and need the help the Republic couldn’t be bothered to expedite, it was a mistake made out of hope for his people to live

* I love when Padme throws hands

* The clones will continue to be “manufactured” although it doesnt say whether or not they will be creating more faster, i thought that was the original plan

* Manipulative bitch

War Crime Counter

Separatists: 9

Republic: 5

im counting the act of terrorism and the assassination of the informant.

Im uncertain if Ono and Dracula’s assassination belongs under Republic or not tho

[jackoshadows]

Hi, so I watched GoT+ am on asoiaf 1 rn and I have a Q about Dany; why is her character so divisive? I read meta by pro Dany fans and its "Dany's compassionate, self critical, a good ruler, a political reformer, frees slaves she'll be a hero at the end" and the antis "shes entitled, vengeful, profiter of slavery, a coloniser and GRRM wont validate a foreign invasion with nuclear weapons; hes anti war!!" Like, wHAt? Surely her character cant be THAT ambigious?! These are popular opposites??

Alright, I'll try to explain this from my perspective as a Jon Snow fan. However, this will be spoilery if you have read only one book. I would suggest reading all the books before joining in on discussions about the character.

It's a combination of things.

One is most definitely sexism. I don't throw that word around lightly having been constantly attacked as a ‘sexist dudebro who hates women’ for simply critiquing a female character.

Sexism in fandom is when female characters are held to different standards compared to their male counterparts. When female characters are critiqued or disliked for doing the same thing that male characters are often praised for doing. Daenerys is subjected to a lot of this which is especially evident in the books because she has a parallel arc of leadership with Jon Snow over at the Wall - the two characters at the ends of the world. 

An example is right there in your ask. GRRM is anti-war and hence why would he validate Dany's invasion - She is therefore in the wrong. Okay. In which case why not extend that argument to every other main character in the series? GRRM is anti-war and therefore Robb Stark was wrong to wage war for Northern independence. GRRM is anti-war and therefore Jon Snow is wrong to help Stannis in his battle against the Boltons. GRRM is anti-war and therefore Tyrion is wrong to use wildfire and defeat Stannis at the battle of the blackwater. GRRM is anti-war and therefore Jon Snow is the villain of the battle at Castle Black.

I think the main thesis of GRRM’s argument in regard to his protagonists has been that there is no good or bad and instead they are all morally gray? Yeah war is bad and most of our protagonists engage in war and they are therefore morally grey characters. I mean, Jon Snow is over there taking child hostages that he has promised to behead - does that make him a baddie? Ned Stark took Theon as a child hostage. Is he a baddie? Our main characters all belong to noble houses in a feudal monarchy - a system of governance that GRRM relentlessly critiques in the books. Are they all baddies?

This double standard is particularly glaring when Dany's battles in Essos is about helping the little guy - the slaves who are under the worst kind of oppression. The WOT5K (War of the 5 Kings) on the other hand was about personal power, ravaged the land and lead to much devastation and suffering. However, for some strange reason when fandom discusses the books and the author being anti-war they focus particularly on Daenerys - that strange reason is sexism.

If you have watched GOT, I am sure you would have noticed those obvious  double standards yourself.

Tyrion standing there making sad faces makes it look like Daenerys is doing something wrong when she executes the Tarlys - two treasonous traitors. However every other House does the same! Jon Snow executed the mutineers at the wall - even a child. After the battle of bastards, he mentions the Karstarks and Umbers having been killed in battle or else they would have been executed. Sansa wants to punish even their children!! But for some strange reason [(i.e) sexism] a female leader executing traitors is evil. That she does so without crying (Something the show runner David Benioff points out in an BTS interview) means she is evil. Jon not crying when killing people = badass, Dany not crying when killing people = evil.

Daenerys in battle with Jaime Lannister to get the Iron Throne = evil. Starks fighting against the Boltons to get Winterfell = Yay! Awesome. Thousands die in both battles - in one battle they die, burned by dragonfire. In the other one they are hacked to death and die with their guts hanging out. In both cases, people die.

The show quickly moves past Jaime Lannister, the Tarlys and their men massacring everyone of Olenna's men and piling their bodies high and sacking and looting the place. However, the show takes time to linger on Tyrion's sad face with the sad music and the men dying when Daenerys is attacking those same men on the battlefield.

I am not even getting into season 8 because it was so, so bad and full of puke inducing sexism that will need 10 pages to outline. I think you have got the gist of why sexism is such a large factor in how Dany's character is otherized and analyzed by fandom at large and made worse by Benioff and Weiss' rampant misogyny shining through in the show's writing.

I mentioned this in another post and I will say again - removing show Tyrion from show Daenerys' narrative would reduce the sexism in her story arc ten fold. He was D&D's mouthpiece in the series after season 5 - there to tell us that Dany was evil for doing all the things the male characters did.

And yes, Nuclear weapons are bad. Nuclear weapons can also be a deterrent and prevent war. Nuclear weapons can also be useful in a fantasy, magical world dealing with an existential apocalyptic threat. This is why I find one to one comparisons like these to be ridiculous. The Starks also have some fiercesome beasts that the author has indicated will be used in battle. Are we calling them evil?

The rest. Colonizer? They should look up what that means and whether it applies to Dany's story in Essos. Profiting off slavery? If one reads the books one knows this is blatantly untrue. Entitled and vengeful? No more than any of the other main characters who belong to noble houses in Westeros.

Daenerys has her flaws, not saying that she doesn't. That's what makes her a three-dimensional and relatable character. It's easy to criticize the character because she does self-reflect and introspect, is sometimes crippled by self-doubt and wants to do things differently and try different options - something that makes her human and real and very well written. Leadership is not easy and she’s 15 in the last book.

The other aspect is a flaw in the writing with respect to the setting of Daenerys' story in the series. She's the only main POV character in Essos until Arya and Tyrion get there in ADwD. And there is a lot of orientalism in GRRM's writing for Essos - meant to represent the East while Westeros represents the West.

There's much to say about how he writes the Dothraki as savage barbarians. While he gives POV characters for the Ironborn with Theon and Asha and characters like Mance, Tormund and Ygritte for the Freefolk, where's the equivalent of all that for the Dothraki? Oh but look, they are eating honeyed locusts! How exotic! There's lots of cartoonishly evil slavers who kill puppies! GRRM keeps otherizing their customs and culture as being savage and cruel and different - highlighted by the fact that we don't have a single Essosi POV giving us their side of things.

I do find GRRM's orientalism distasteful and off putting, especially as Essos is just a prop, a stepping stone for the characters before they move onto Westeros where the real story is happening. That is however a critique of the writing, not of the character. People tend to conflate the two. A middle aged white man writing in the nineties about a fantasy eastern world does not make Daenerys a 'white savior' or a 'colonizer' and it's clear from various interviews the author has given that this was not his intention either.

Daenerys is also the only Targaryen POV in the books. Think about that. The Starks have 6 POVs in the first book. The Lannisters get 3 by AFfC. The Greyjoys have 4, the Martells have 2. The only major house worse off than the Targaryens are the Baratheons with no POV characters.

We see Jon Snow through Arya and Bran’s POV. We see Arya through Jon’s. We get none of this for Dany. The Starks have a home and a loving family. Dany meanwhile is starting off the story at her lowest point - an abusive brother and forcefully married off to a Dothraki. While the Starks then end up losing that security, family members die, one of them is a hostage and the other is on the run - they still have memories of each other. Danerys meanwhile, slowly and painfully works her way to the top. 

Reminds me of a post I responded to the other day, where the OP said that Arya and Jon cannot be underdogs because they are winners (Whatever that means). That’s the attitude that a lot of fandom has towards Daenerys - now that she is queen and has power, she has it easy compared to the likes of Sansa and the rest of the Starks. Ignoring that when the books started Daenerys was in a way worse position than any of the Starks.

This is a fandom that thinks that Sansa Stark deserves to be Queen in the North because she’s beautiful, has good manners and is a Stark. And this is the same fandom who think that Daenerys, who worked her way to the top - with no family to help, no happy childhood, no teachers, no security of food and shelter, who were beggars and on the run at one point - the Daenerys who is currently spending an entire book ruling a city state, making trade deals, dealing with an insurgency and famine, engaging in marriage diplomacy to sue for peace for the slaves she freed, that Daenerys is entitled. Do you agree?

I am a Jon Snow fan and even I can see how utterly ridiculous the fan discourse around Daenerys is. When the show was on, I was only posting about Jon and there was so much anti Dany stuff on the Jon Snow tags I had to wade into discussion about the character. And the more I defended her, the more I ended up re-reading her chapters, the more I ended up loving the character. There’s so much hypocrisy and sexist double standards where the character is concerned.

And I have not even touched upon the obnoxiousness that is ‘Jonsa’ - group of morons who think Sansa is the main character in a book series called A Song of Sansa and Sansa and Jon is secretly in love with Sansa who is going to be Queen with executioner/personal spymaster Arya Stark and her consort Jon Snow who will sexually manipulate and murder Daenerys for his great love Sansa.

Sansa fans make up the vast majority of asoiaf fans on Tumblr and the majority of them dislike Daenerys and Arya or see Dany as Sansa’s antagonist - even though these two characters have no connection in the books and I doubt they would ever interact. If you look at most of the anti Dany posts on here, they will be made by someone with a Sansa pfp. There are posts about how Jon will kill Dany or how Arya will kill Dany, and if you look at their blogs they will be big Sansa fans.

These are the same people who write essays on how Arya is not a real girl or is ‘male-coded’ or who write essays on how Daenerys only uses ‘threats and force’ whereas Sansa is apparently a political genius who uses ‘Soft Power’ - a foreign policy concept - because she talked down 13 year old idiot Joffrey that one time. When in the actual books, it’s Daenerys who has used Soft Power in her marriage diplomacy with Hizdahr and Sansa has never engaged in any kind of politics with actual adults.

Notice that these kinds of ‘metas’ are popularized by fandom bnfs using blogs like asoiafuniversity. There’s this very popular idea that’s propagated in fandom that Sansa is kind and compassionate when in the actual books there are more instances of kindness and compassion from Arya and from Daenerys. This is once again an example of how sexism and misogyny in this fandom has worked to give the wrong impressions of these characters. Arya and Daenerys are seen as more violent compared to Sansa even though Daenerys’ entire arc for two books has been about helping an oppressed population. The mind boggles!

It’s the same when it comes to love and romance. Arya and Daenerys are not considered worthy of love, romance and marriage because they are the wrong kind of girls. And let’s not bring age into this considering Sansa is 11 at the start of the books and she is the fandom bicycle shipped with every Tom, Dick and Harry.

I am not even getting into the slut-shaming and victim blaming that Daenerys gets in the fandom. There was actual discourse in this fandom on how Dany was not a good rape victim like Sansa because she brought up her rape in conversation! Daenerys is somehow seen as less than because she can’t possibly have children - that apparently makes her less of a woman and a bad partner for Jon Snow unlike Sansa Stark who will surely have ten babies!

The worst part is that’s it women who engage in this kind of discourse and the same women who turn around and gaslight the fandom into thinking that Sansa is unfairly targeted because of sexism.

There’s also the usual dislike from the fans of other characters.

There are Jon Snow fans who see him as the prophesied hero and main protagonist, who don’t like Daenerys coming over and taking away main character status. I personally think there is no one main character. IMO, Jon, Dany, Arya, Bran and Tyrion are all tier one main characters, who will work together against the Army of the Dead. [Note: This works the other way as well. I have seen Dany fans who dislike Jon Snow as well and think he is unimportant in the grand scheme of things]

There are Stannis Baratheon stans over on the Asoiaf subreddit who will excuse everything Stannis does - including burning people alive for his God - and then nitpick every single policy decision of Dany’s in order to argue she is evil or a bad ruler. 

There are house Stark fans who hate House Targaryen and see them as in opposition to each other. There are fans who believe in Northern exceptionalism i.e the North is special and Dany is a threat to that specialness because she wants the 7K etc. etc.

This turned out to be a long post. On the whole, the answer to your question on why Daenerys is such a polarizing character is mainly because of sexism. There are other factors like the setting and isolation of her story, the lack of other POVs etc. The main reason though is sexism and ship wars.

[sokkastyles]

I know you've responded to this post before, but I also saw this reblog of it and I thought you might like to take a crack at it.

I've already addressed a lot of those arguments about the Southern Raiders and the claim the episode was "really" about how Katara and Zuko needed Aang's guidance and how they're so insensitive towards Aang's feelings about Katara's feelings (because Katara's feelings need to be about Aang for some reason?) So I'm not gonna rehash all that, but I do want to address this:

"That's cute, but this isn't air temple pre-school." / "Okay, guru goody-goody..."

&

"You're weak, just like the rest of your people! ... They don't deserve to live in this world! In my world!"

Do sound kind of similar

Because they only sound similar if you are reading Zuko's lines in the most uncharitable light. And yes, there is a difference between Zuko being a redeemed villain and Ozai being the main big bad AND Zuko's abuser who his narrative is about rejecting in every way, especially since this wasn't something Zuko said as a villain, and neither Aang nor Katara act like it was wrong of him to say or think. We already know that Zuko does not believe that the Air Nomads are weak and don't deserve to live in the world. Only a few episodes previously, he told Ozai directly that that was wrong!

It's extremely reductive to compare Zuko disagreeing about whether Katara should forgive her mother's murderer to Ozai advocating for genocide. Like, that's so far from what the argument is about. This is like Christians going around telling victims of abuse that if they don't turn the other cheek they will go to hell, and when someone disagrees with them they act like they were told to go die. Aang is not being victimized by Zuko disagreeing about what he thinks Katara should do about her mom's murder. But Zuko IS an abuse victim who has been told by his abusers that he needs to seek their forgiveness for imagined crimes that were used to hurt him. That's why Zuko disagrees with Aang's take on forgiveness, not because he thinks the Air Nomads are weak.

Also, I and other people have pointed this out already, but rather than what Ozai says about how the Air Nomads did not deserve to live, Zuko says that Aang's statements on forgiveness are more applicable to "Air Temple Preschool" than to the real world. This isn't some nihilistic statement about how the world is cold and hard or advocating for Ozai's darwinist take on "weakness," Zuko is saying that Air Nomad teachings that don't come from lived experience don't have a place in Aang telling Katara what to do about her mother's murder. Aang has experienced immense suffering, but his lines about how the monks say that revenge is a two headed snake don't come from his experiences of suffering - and Aang is never put in the place of having to forgive an unrepentant person, he does not forgive Ozai, and only forgives Zuko because Zuko sought his forgiveness and genuinely changed - they are merely words he was taught that he uses to tell Katara what do about a situatuon he has never been in and will never be put in. The words don't mean anything for Katara's situation, which is about her specific experiences and the man who murdered her mother. That's what Zuko meant when he was talking about the difference between aphorisms one might be taught in school and the real world.

Additionally, although Zuko says to Aang that he was right about violence not being the answer, we already know that Zuko is capable of finding that out on his own, because we saw him reject being goaded into violence by Ozai in Day of Black Sun. We saw him accept Katara sparing Yon Rha without a word. And we saw him in the final agni kai, the actual parallel to Aang's fight with Ozai, defeat his sister without killing her. When Zuko asks Aang how he is going to defeat Ozai, it is not about Zuko thinking violence is the only answer, it is about the fact that currently, they HAVE no answer to the question about what to do about Ozai. Neither Aang nor Zuko know about the lion turtle, and Zuko not knowing about it is not a flaw in his morals. The AUDIENCE doesn't even know about it until the last minute, and the question of what Aang will do about Ozai is answered not by Aang sticking to his morals and proving himself morally superior, but narrative contrivance.

That's why the lion turtle feels like such a cheap win, especially in the context of this argument. The argument seems to be that Zuko should have somehow predicted that pacifism would win the day through an unlikely set of circumstance that conspire to make it happen. If only Zuko, as a thirteen year old, had been able to pull something similar out of his ass to avoid not being burned by Ozai. But alas, clearly the reason he couldn't is because he just didn't believe enough in the power of pacifism, and had to learn it from Aang, who the narrative bends over backwards to accommodate. The real difference here is that Zuko and Katara didn't have the moral luck of the narrative on their side and Aang did. Imagine if Katara's quandary about what do about Yon Rha was solved by her revealing at the last second right before she shoves an ice dagger through Yon Rha's eye that she actually learned how to neutralize him nonviolently in a flashback from a flying hog monkey and then lecturing Zuko for five minutes on the evils of violence.

Even without the deus ex machina, Katara and Zuko still manage to defeat Azula nonviolently in the literal parallel to Aang's fight with Ozai, so like, I don't even know what the point of this comparison is except annoying virtue signaling.

[creatingblackcharacters]

(Submitting one that I've actually gotten into arguments with people about)

Jasmine and Jarred from Deltora Quest!

The books don't really specify race at all with the characters, but from an early age I invisualized Jasmine as a Black girl bc her main visual descriptions are having long wild black hair, which as a Black kid with long wild black hair I was like "that's one of mine for sure".

She's one of the main three characters, and for a while with the books they kind of hint that she may be the lost heir they're trying to find. Her parents had lived in the palace in the main city of Del, but around when she was born they had to flee because of a hostile takeover and hid out near the forests outside of town.

When she was little, a bunch of the guards run by the bad guy attacked the home and took her parents while she fled into the forests, and she basically raised herself in the woods for 10 years. When the other main characters go into the woods and immediately nearly die she saves them and joins the party (along with her pet crow and another pet that's a lil fuzzy guy). Since the other two haven't really been outside the capital city she has more of an idea of what's been going on since the villain took over.

I know it's a little not great to have the Black character be the Raised By Wolves girl that talks to the trees, but I actually visualize the main cast to be Black as well (a poor blacksmith's kid and an ex palace guard), and I think that going into this series with the idea of Black as Default works really well with the setting. Jasmine is just my favorite bc I felt like I looked like her as a kid, and she's (I think) a good example of showing a kid going through a Lot of Trauma at an early age (especially in the second series, which focuses heavily on her being desperate to find surviving family members).

But I think the main detail that makes me headcanon her and the focal character of Leif as Black is because of final book spoilers; there's this common thread mentioned in the books that Leif's dad and Jasmine's dad, Jarred and Endon, were childhood friends in the palace, and they dressed the same, learned the same, basically lived parallel until the villain took over. In the last book it's revealed that the character that had been going by the name Jarred was actually Endon and Leif is the heir. Since the third member of the adventuring party is older and used to work in the palace, I feel like it's reasonable to assume both characters were about the same in skin tone bc otherwise he would have immediately noticed the switch.

Jasmine's dad, Jarred, is my favorite character as an adult. He shows up at various places as a "mysterious" character called Doom, and is part of an underground resistance.

These two are also why I dislike the anime made for this series. Partially bc they made them both really light skinned, but also bc when it shows a flashback to what was the intro to the first book (the Shadow Lord taking over and Endon and Jarred fleeing) they frame it from the also disappointingly light Leif's memory of being told the story, and they swap the characters. I get that it's trying to just show how he visualizes it happening, but it feels like straight-up lying about which character is which so that the pretty blonde guy wins at the end (also Leif isn't canonically blonde, just in the anime). I feel like it's much more reasonable for the characters to look similar for this to work.

But yeah, I know this is kind of rambly, but I wanted to talk about my theory that Deltora Quest is a better series if Black is assumed for the main cast, and I really have a lot of fond memories of this series. It's hard for me to get into specifics without basically summarizing the whole series so I hope this makes sense!

To be honest, I'm just really happy to see your excitement over it 😅 especially knowing that you found a reason to make it yours at such a young age. That's what we like to see 😤

And alas, people like to see the pretty blondes win, no matter what 😭 but that's something coming up soon in later lessons 👀