#fiction vs. reality

[stusbunker]

My OTP: dies for each other.

Me to my husband: I give the bare minimum amount of effort at all times, sucker.

Husband: Ditto.

[asses-to-ashes]

Pedophiles don't belong in the proship community. Zoophiles don't belong in the furry community. Can we stop conflating these communities.

If you're recovering from a paraphilic disorder, great! Can't afford a psychologist but are anti-contact and anti-enabling? Also great! I wish you the best.

My problem comes from the normalization and celebration of paraphilic disorders on this site specifically under the disguise of disability or queer activism. A psychologist will NEVER, EVER recommend that you post about it or engage in an online community of enablers. Paraphilic disorders are not kink. Embracing paraphilic disorders is not disability activism.

You can be anti-contact and anti-enabling without being hateful or making assumptions about people who have a disorder, but people who run Para Blogs are not anti-enabling. The ProPara community has turned into a cesspool of enablers and legitimate pro-contact pedophiles who hide behind the fact that people have empathy for those with disorders they can't control. They've created a space where people brag about being pedophiles and celebrate attraction to children. This is the opposite of how the disorder is treated by professionals.

Stay away from fiction & communities that could cause you to relapse or backslide. Proshippers are not attracted to minors, our stories don't exist for pedophiles to displace their attraction onto.

The reasons paraphilic disorders are different from fetishes is because:

1. They include unwilling people or people who cannot consent, such as voyeurism or pedophilia

2. They cause the participant or others harm that is potentially lifelong

3. They prevent a person from functioning or adjusting in society

I'm going to address a post I saw earlier. EXTREME TW for the defense of pro-contact "big 3" paraphilias

START QUOTE --------------------

END QUOTE --------------------

Being gay harms nobody. It is an attraction between two consenting adults.

PARAPHILIC DISORDERS are not normal attraction. Comparing being a pedophile to being homosexual is not the #WOKE PEDOPHILE WIN that you think it is. It's insanely regressive and harmful.

To reiterate, you are not evil for having a paraphilic disorder.

You are not a bad person. You are a bad person for glorifying it, enabling yourself and others, fighting for your right to harm other people without consent, and engaging in an online community of pedophiles.

[myfandomrealitea]

It confuses me when people say they're "neutral" on the pro/anti issue. Aside from seeming dismissive, the strange part is that most of these folks actually do share the same beliefs as pro-shippers -- understanding that fiction isn't real, not harassing others over fiction, and being against censorship, etc -- but they don't acknowledge it for some reason? Because by saying that they don't harass other people over fiction and understand that fiction is separate from reality, they are agreeing with pro-shippers.

But then they supposedly don't "care" enough to "pick a side". Alright, so, why are you here? By commenting on pro-ship posts about how neutral you are, you are still getting involved. By saying, "I won't pick a side because [I think the fact that it's a problem in the first place is ridiculous since it's just fiction, come on now,]" you are sharing the exhausted sentiments of pro-shippers! We agree with you. We're also fed up with it!

(Sorry for rambling. Love your blog!)

A lot of it stems from not wanting to be associated with the concept of proshipping that anti-propaganda has perpetrated. The word 'proship' is a massive target on someone's back which has become synonymous for some people with things like pedophile and abuse apologist.

"Not caring enough to pick a side" can often be translated to "I support this one side, but not enough to open myself up to abuse and harassment on its behalf."

It can also be translated as "I support this side, but not enough to spend my time arguing about it with people."

All of which are valid stances to have. I'm friends with people who are both engaged and passive about proshipping.

[wolveria]

I don’t engage with the “fiction affects reality” argument, because it’s a red herring. It’s focusing on the wrong thing.

Fiction doesn’t affect reality, fiction affects people. That’s the point of art. It’s supposed to create an effect, make you feel something. If you're afraid how fiction will make people feel, then you’re not afraid of fiction. You’re afraid of people having the power to possibly cause harm.

It’s a lot more sanitized to say “this fiction is bad because it affects reality” and not the more truer version of “this fiction is bad because it might make people feel things I’m afraid of.”

And we know that can lead to some dark things fairly quickly, the desire to preemptively persecute people based on their potential for harm, rather than any harm they’ve actually done. This reaction is based on fear of the unknown, and you can’t win an argument against the irrationality of fear.

[horizon-verizon]

One thing I have noticed is how Jon’s stans want him to have this really powerful bond with Daenerys’ dragons but I have NEVER seen them talk that way about Daenerys and Ghost. You’ll see Stark fans theorize or make fanfiction/fanart of the Starks having her dragons or being part of the Three Heads or taking Daenerys’s prophecies but you’ll never see anyone claim Daenerys will warg Ghost or another direwolf. I couldn’t care less about the direwolves but I found that quite interesting.

Jonerys is all about co-opting Daenerys’ Targaryen identity for Jon. Or make it seems like they are both leaders, when in reality what Daenerys is doing in Essos, in Meereen, just stomps on EVERYTHING Jon does (did since he’s dead, murdered by his own men, lmao). It’s just just about giving Jon access to Daenerys’ dragons and groundbreaking accomplishments & storyline. Ship trash as hell, by shipping them (or pretending to because they are quick to throw Daenerys under the bus, they just want to use her as a self insert), Jon’s stans can elevate him through Daenerys.

From what I have also seen of the most of the Jon stanning Jonerys shippers so far, I must agree. Part of it is that in real life, men also can't be much of anything professionally nor domestically without leaching off of their female partners and family members, so of course we have people do the same with fictional characters. Apparently in the U.S. men are more likely to get promotions and shit when they have children or get married or even just move in with a woman whereas it's the reverse for women. Still, bc it's tacitly expected the woman would be the one performing much domestic labor and birthing children that "depend" on the man's income. You'd think BOTH would get the promo for the household to get even more $, but nah...bc women are the main consumers but also the expected ones to consistently consume products for their households, children, etc.

Aside from Nymeria and Ghost--the dogs themselves, but in the case of Nym, the relationship w/Arya, I am in anticipation of seeing again in the books--the direwolves of ASoIaF don't really intrigue me all that much. And it could be bc we haven't gone anywhere away from Bran using Summer to warg AND I don't see how they'd be involved with the coming war to this day.

[fairytailuv4life]

I'm all for pointing out a flaw(s) in a character or a couple but the key of understanding one another with different view points is that you DON'T have to fully on agree with everything but to only listen to yourself is where I draw the line

I know Juvia has some issues I know Juvia takes her love for Gray on a level that no "rational" person can understand I know Natsu can be a bit centric when it comes to boundaries I know there are just small times when Natsu doesn't respect of Lucy's space I know in some reality that Gajeel wouldn't work with Levy cause he tried to kill her and same with Jellal/Erza

I don't mind talking about these things but people are so hung up on the small details to not be able to bypass the fact that they all really have grown in their ways even if it doesn't seem like it and at the end of the day they're fictional most people who get into this series are adults and most adults (should) understand that no decent person would act on these types of behavior so really people need to just stop taking fiction so seriously

[neopuppy]

(I Hit It Like It’s All Mine Johnny)

[destinygoldenstar]

Regression of one’s redemption in real life: Expected and normal and shows that being a better person is not a switch. You will fail, you will make the same mistakes again and again until the lesson truly sticks. Regression is not good, but it is something to be expected on that journey. A bump in the road, shall we say. Regression of one’s redemption in fiction: “Bad Writing”

(Okay well in SOME cases in fiction that’s true, but you know, context matters, so not EVERY example of regression deserves the label I feel. The fact the character regresses isn’t bad. How the writer handles that regressing is.)

(Zuko & Bojack Horseman are some amazing examples of a character ‘regressing’)

[asses-to-ashes]

Longass post about some problematic aspects of 2000-2010 fandom, and why antis are not the solution for ongoing problems.

When people my age talk about 2000s-2010 fandom, they usually talk about it with rose-colored glasses as if it was the Golden age of fandom. I've done the same thing in some of my posts at times, and I don't necessarily see a problem with it, especially when you're discussing it under the context of the current climate of censorship and community harassment, but it's important to look back at the past objectively. When I say old fandom in this post, just know that I'm referring to 2000 to 2010.

There is a happy medium that needs to be reached between holding people accountable in fandom and avoiding censorship. The "anti" mindset goes way too far and polices how people explore fiction, but Old Fandom had its own problems with extremely poor behavior. In this essay I'm going to be exploring these problems in old fandom, the causes and solutions, why media censorship is never the answer. It's important to recognize and reflect on these things especially for people who weren't around to experience it. History repeats itself when Forgotten.

My point is not, and has never been that old fandom was worse than new fandom. My point is not that old fandom is bad at all. My point here is looking at problems, the solutions that have been made for those problems, and why they don't relate to censoring fiction at all.

I want to reiterate that I know things I'm about to discuss still happen. You do not have to comment. But it's important that we start looking objectively at Old Fandom as a wonderful, accepting but sometimes problematic (real problematic not the way antis nave coopted that word) space.

Keep in mind that this is an opinion piece. While I do provide statistics, I'm not trying to make any objective statements. My experience is probably different than yours. The experiences of my friends and my sources are probably different than yours.

With that in mind, let's get into it. Click read more for the meat of this essay

Cosplay Is Not Consent

Consent and sexual harassment have always been a huge issue within the cosplay community, there have been countless stories of women dealing with unwanted sexual advances such as touching, cat calls, kissing, and groping in convention spaces. At conventions in 2000, consent was never mentioned. With such a severe problem, the Cosplay Is Not Consent movement began.

This has been a notion that has been around for a while, been posted at some small cons as far beck as 2012. but it really only became a popularized sentiment at New York City Comic-Con 2014, where the phrase "Costumes Are Not Consent was posted publicly in the convention apace, along with a clear anti-harassment policy.

Even though research shows that most sexual harassment goes unreported, the amount of sexual harassment reports had more than halved in the first year of the visible anti-harassment signs and movement. The amount of sexual harassment cases at NYCC remained steady at "about a dozen" per year even as the number of attendees has increased from 151,000 in 2014 to more than 200,000 in 2023- A testament to the increased awareness of sexual harassment within fandom, an ongoing movement to protect attendees with anti-harassment policies.

A policy is only as good as the structure set up around that policy. An increasing number of conventions have a policy, display their policy prominently, define harassment, explain consequences, let guests know how to report harassment, and give separate protocols when convention organizers are responsible for abuse.

Now, instead of an unspoken "look the other way" policy, congoers are more likely to notice sexual harassment, come to someone's aid, and speak out. People who harass women are more likely to be kicked out of conventions and sexual harassment is more likely to be reported.

Obviously, sexual harassment and assault is still a huge problem in convention spaces, but with an increase in awareness around the issue, it's not as prominent as before.

Subsection: Yaoi Paddles, Glomping, and dangerous conduct

Reportedly first sold in 2002 at Otakon, yowie paddles are a wooden paddle with the word Yaoi burnt into the paddle end used for spanking people. They were a huge problem at conventions and caused a lot of people to be injured as a result. There were countless stories on forums about people being hit by random passerbys using a yaoi paddle, and people begged for it to be banned.

Glomping Is a running hug action that's a mix between a hug and a pounce. It was very popular in fandom, specifically around 2005 in the anime and furry fandoms. It was mostly younger people doing this and it caused a lot of people to be injured as well. Glopping incidents sometimes even included biting or groping.

Both of these behaviors were considered very poor etiquette, but were still very common in conventions. They were common enough so that even saying the words yaoi paddle or glomp to a cosplayer my age is like activating a sleeper agent. Your life flashes before your very eyes. Obviously I'm being dramatic here but it was very annoying.

Inappropriateness with Actors

In general, poor etiquette around celebrities is still a thing now. I haven't seen etiquette getting any better, so this point is less about a problem with old fandom and more about a current issue that still needs to be addressed. I'm going to be talking about real people, fan fiction and the blurred lines between characters and actors.

I'm not here to debate the ethics of "real people fiction." For those of you who don't know, RPF is a genre of fanfiction that involves real people. These people can be actors, politicians, historical figures, youtubers, really anything like that.

The problem comes from involving real actors in your fiction about them. What I mean by this is sending the actors your explicit fan fiction, or asking them inappropriate sexual questions. This is more of a problem from the early 2000's. While this does still happen now, it was really prolific in the early Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter fandoms.

Actors would frequently be invited to fan sites that had explicit RPF fanfiction. I've seen cases where actors were asked to sign copies of RPF, actors were mailed RPF, and were showed these fanfictions at meetups and conventions.

RPF never died off, and it's still a very popular genre. Between 2016 and 2017, fanfiction about real K-pop stars. Increased 10% on Tumblr. In 2015, Larry Stylinson was the number one ship on Tumblr according to Amanda Brennan, senior content insights manager at Tumblr.

Celebrities have been harassed for not following a fandom script, online shipping has led to the real life harassment of celebrities. For example, Lili Reinhart reported that her castmate was sent death threats because her character was getting in between a popular ship. This happened in 2017 and represents an ongoing problem in fandom.

Nazism and the Anime Boston Incident

I distinctly remember going to conventions when I was younger and seeing Nazi cosplayers walking around sometimes. They could be from Indiana Jones, Captain America, or whatever movie allowed them to wear that.

It wasn't until 2017 when Rose City Comic-Con updated a change to cosplay policy outlawing Nazi cosplayers including satirical or ironic cosplays which use Nazi paraphernalia or gear. Other conventions have also enacted similar cosplay bands in response to incidents such as the hello Kitty SS uniforms (yes, this is real) and cosplays of other fictional Nazis such as old school Hydra and red skull.

The most memorable incident that I distinctly saw on the internet in 2010 was the Hetalia Anime Boston Incident. For those of you who aren't familiar with hetalia, it's a series that came out in 2009 and initially took place in WWII, and each character is the humanization of a country. There is still debate on the characterization, especially regarding the character Germany- Poor guy was the cause of this specific controversy. The Italia fandom had exponential growth since 2009, and at anime Boston 2010, there was an incident regarding a hetalia photo shoot where cosplayers decided to do a Nazi salute as a joke. Even at the time, the sparked controversy on the Hetalia fandom on livejournal which is why I remember this incident so specifically. There were incidents like this beforehand, but this garnered enough attention online so that lots of photographers made it very clear that no Nazi imagery or posing was allowed.

With more restrictive policies and increased awareness, these types of cosplays became a lot less common in the west. The band are usually around Nazi iconography and symbols such as salutes and uniforms. You still see these cosplays today, such as an example from Hong Kong at Ani-com that took place this month, July 2024.

Where do antis fit in here?

I want to make it super clear that none of these major issues that I brought up here have to do with fiction. The points that are related to fiction, such as cosplaying a Nazi character or sending RPF to actors are entirely based on people's conduct in real life.

People never stopped liking characters like Red Skull, people still write about him and draw him. People should be allowed to write about characters like Red Skull and people should be allowed to like him, the issue arises when you wear a Nazi uniform in a public place.

People never stopped liking Yaoi. Little fan girls never stopped reading exactly the same stuff that I was reading at their age. The difference comes from behavior in real life.

Universally, the vast majority of fandom regardless of the time are able to separate fiction from reality. The problems were never caused by fiction, but rather people's behavior.

In order to stop people from cosplaying Nazi characters, the solution was not getting rid of all Nazi characters in media and harassing people who write about them. The solution was, very simply, to ban this kind of iconography at conventions and hold people accountable for their conduct.

Regardless of the space and the fandom, there are always going to be people who can't behave properly. There are always going to be people who don't know how to treat others. That's just the reality of looking at a group of people, some people don't have common sense. It is not the fiction that causes people to behave this way, but rather having a large group of people in a relatively new scene that hasn't established proper regulations and etiquette yet.

Allowing people to create, consume, and appreciate fiction that is not personally tasteful to you, or appropriate for some audiences, is an important part of society. It's extremely valuable to protect these freedoms, as censorship is a slippery slope.

My next essay will be about censorship in the Cold war era, McCarthyist homophobia, and why comic books were censored for having "anti-american" ideas.

Keep an eye out for that.

[waxingrunes]

But it’s so biased and top Remus is so preferred. I just wish you were more into bottom Remus or sub Remus because it’s such a waste. Your style is so good you could make it look so good but you’re wasting your potential on one thing

I appreciate you might not be coming in at a volatile angle but I’m not your sounding board for fandom bias. Thank you for the compliment but since the last two weeks I’ve received two or three messages suggesting I should do this and that, or why I’m wrong for doing this and that, and I’ve no clue where you’re coming from. I welcome discussions on a mature and adult basis as I’m a sexually lucrative person, but the discourse I see around fandom and bedrooming is mad and makes me believe none of you have any real life experience on the topic.

Before anyone spits on my neck this isn’t me bashing asexuals, those who have chosen not to or are yet to engage in sexual or intimate relations for any reasons, or those who choose to explore their sexuality through the virtual experience of fiction and/or other online resources. I’m talking about those who witter and whine to their screens about how wrong things are, how it’s ‘stupid’ or ‘weird’ to like one thing or have preferences— last time I checked there’s no wrong way to do fiction based on the fact alone that it is fiction.

If you want to take character A and make them top, enjoy them topping, only really want to engage in character A topping environments then you hop on your merry way and saturate your experience with it. If you think character B looks like they should bottom and only enjoy it when they do so and don’t fancy reading or seeing anything that involves them doing the opposite, curate your experience to reflect exactly that. STOP ALLOWING PEOPLE TO TELL YOU HOW TO ENJOY THINGS (full stop) IN A FICTIONAL SETTING. Stop allowing people to make you feel weird or wrong for simply wanting character A to pound character B and treat them like a princess. None of us are marching up to a real life queer couple, sizing them up based on the few facts and visuals we have on them, then telling them why they don’t fuck right. This is not real life, this is play pretend and should be a safe space to enjoy whatever the fuck you want, as many times as you want, wherever you want, with whatever fucking bias you want. Go find the people who think like you and keep any ailments you have about things just like that, between you. As long as you’re not taking to public platform to shit on others, people’s likes and dislikes, and keep your opinions to the comfort of your friendship group confessionals then I promise you, there is no wrong way to do fandom.

If you are one of those people who are making posts and whipping out your scriptures like you’re some wolfstar or whoever the fuck’s prophet, coming in clutch with your lists and reasons and thesis, running around dropping anonymous messages or losing sleep because fictional character is just not to your liking and oh no the world is off its axis, put your message BACK in the bottle. Nobody cares that much and those who do I guarantee you, I guarantee you my friends, there is life outside of the internet.

[sassydefendorflower]

For some time now I've harbored the suspicion that Ao3 and fandom in general is pretty anti-abortion. Not in a conscious, malicious way - hell no. I think it is an unconscious thing, something that sneaks into a lot of fiction in a way that isn't actively harmful, but has an accumulative effect.

And i get it.

Fanfic and fandom are escapism. They are there to present happy stories and happy endings, big What-ifs and endless coffee-shop AUs. It is easy to imagine these worlds as perfect enough that no one needs to have an abortion because only people who want children only ever get pregnant.

And on an individual level that is absolutely fine. Nobody has to deal with topics that make them personally uncomfortable, or deal with delicate discussions such as this in their free time entertainment. It's just...

A world without abortion isn't a happy one for everyone. Partially because it is a human right that is being threatened all over the world by conservative governments who want to take away the bodily autonomy to have one. And since such is the state of the world, there should be a room in fiction to explore the implications of this. The horror of some government having this kind of control over your body, but also the fantasy of a support system that is there for you should the need for an abortion arise.

Why am I typing all this? Because I just got a lot of hate on one of my fics dealing with abortion. And I think it is a symptom of a larger problem.

[ID: screenshot of an anon Ao3 comment saying: "Why do you worthless,brainless feminists try to tarnish this perfect stor y with your feminist baby murder propoganda? Why do you try to project your brainwashed,indoctrinated whore behaviour on characters as great as Edward and Winry? An abortion is NOT your decision. It is NOT your body and no amount of feminist screaming will change that. It is the fathers child too and your opinion is irrelevant. Abortion is murder, that's a fact. And no, I'm not religious. This entire story and your propoganda is utter TRASH. Rejected."]

[ID: another screenshot, also from anon: "NOT her body,NOT her choice. Different human being altogether. Keep wishing. Men will fully stop this practice of infanticide." Posted: 2023-06-18 05:09:47 UTC]

[ID: a third anon message that reads: Anonymous responded: "NOT her body,NOT her choice. That's a different, innocent human being altogether. And Ed is a strong,free man with a working brain. He's not your idea of "supportive husband" (aka spineless beta) who will support infanticide. This is not Edward and mlst definitely not Winry. She knows the value of life and exactly how hollow abortion arguments are. It is NOT a womans choice ever. NOBODY gets to decide to murder an innocent baby." Posted: 2023-06-18 05:08:24 UTC]

The fact that you should never send someone these kind of messages non-withstanding, this showcases a lack of respect and understanding that is simply baffling. There is so much hate in these comments. So much ire at women and people capable of having children in these words... it's frightening.

And I don't want to lock these stories behind moderated comments and limited access, because let me tell you something... these stories are for the people who need them most, the people who need positive and loving stories about making a hard choice and sticking with it. And often these people will only tell me about their own journey, their own struggle while on Anon themselves. And looking at the kind of response I've garnered... for a good reason.

Because it still isn't safe to openly talk about abortion.

Apparently not even on a website like ao3, which is generally assumed to be pretty liberal considering the general nature of online fandom.

Abortion is still seen as a taboo topic - in fiction and in real life. And this fear of openly discussing abortion makes people who visibly do vulnerable for attack. Be it authors like me who want to explore the bodily autonomy inherit in a fight for abortion, or the women and people who've had an abortion and are still frightened to talk about it.

If writing fiction dealing with abortion has taught me anything--- it's that people need and WANT these stories. Because no one else is writing them, but I really think some of us should.

The perfect world in which no one needs an abortion is useless, if people in the real world get hate mail for contemplating having one.

The next time your character has an unwanted pregnancy or is already surrounded by six kids or is very focused on wanting success and a career... think about why abortion isn't an option in your story.

Is it because it wouldn't make sense in your perfect fantasy? Is it because actually wanting kids is very inherent to this character? Or is it because deep down some part of you still thinks that having an abortion is some sort of sin?

It's no moral judgement I am making here - but you can only deal with an unconscious bias by examining it.

[myfandomrealitea]

https://www.tumblr.com/myfandomrealitea/754160247551197184/as-an-ex-anti-i-feel-a-little-bad-because-i-only?source=share

I stopped being an anti because I was bored so I made a proship acc (not to expose people and harass them, just out of boredom /gen) and found out my #1 fav artist was a proshipper so I kept tha blog for a few more weeks just to interact with them more... 😂

and the more I came into proship spaces the more I realized how harmful anti spaces were. I was constantly stressed, and worried about getting harassed for my oc being gay due to childhood sexual trauma and many other things.

(btw me n my fav artist are friends now.)

I love asks like this. I'm so glad you got yourself out of that harmful space and even found a friendship to boot.

Honestly; a lot of people don't actually realize how harmful the more extremist/active 'anti' community is. If you're living in constant fear of doing the 'wrong thing' or constant fear that you're next, that you'll be harassed or called out or harmed, it is not safe. It is not healthy.

There's no right or wrong way to 'become' proship. There's no obligations to interact with content you don't enjoy if you do, either.

[enemywasp]

I need to write this before I forget but I truly believe "Fiction always effects reality!!" Antis who focus on dark fiction and proshippers are focusing on the completely wrong thing.

Cause the average person is not going to watch a main protagonist kill a bunch of people and suddenly decide that's okay irl. No one is going to read about a adultxminor and suddenly think that maybe that's not too bad. Cause these are things people just fundamentally understand are wrong and that they cause harm in real life.

The really dangerous fiction that effects reality is the stuff you don't immediately catch as a big horrific thing. It's stereotypes, which you grow up with and don't always question.

The whole hooked nose villain idea, tiktok has a new trend every few months putting down people with a big or hooked nose. And obviously this is built off the anti-Jewish propaganda, yet so many people seem blind to this even in their own prejudice. There's the whole angry black woman stereotype, which you can't ever convince me doesn't still effect people's views and treatment of black women.

The main characters often being these "perfect" white, "conventionally attractive" girls.

The portrayal of autistic people often being through very rigid stereotypes and only shown in white men. I still see people claim women can't be autistic or not believing people who tell them they're autistic cause they don't "seem" or "look" it.

The way disabled people, fat people and anyone "different" get played off as jokes and made fun of or even treated as a joke or prop for the other characters to use for a laugh just encourages the idea that it's okay to treat them differently or make fun of them in real life.

The examples could go on forever, and I think that's the real problem in fiction effecting reality cause its a build up of lots of little things in media throughout people's lives that may mean they don't question or even notice their own prejudice they've developed.

[horizon-verizon]

Wills do in fact exist in the world of Westeros. And more specifically they’ve been plot points in regards to chosen heirs. Robb Stark has an entire debate with Catelyn about choosing his heir. Sansa is ostensibly his heir with Bran and Rickon considered deceased. And yet Robb and Catelyn believe they can skip over Sansa by naming another heir. Why would they believe this possible if there isn’t precedent for a King choosing his heirs ?

“Young, and a king,” he said. “A king must have an heir. If I should die in my next battle, the kingdom must not die with me. By law Sansa is next in line of succession, so Winterfell and the north would pass to her.” His mouth tightened. “To her, and her lord husband. Tyrion Lannister. I cannot allow that. I will not allow that. That dwarf must never have the north.” 

“No,” Catelyn agreed. “You must name another heir, until such time as Jeyne gives you a son.” She considered a moment. “Your father’s father had no siblings, but his father had a sister who married a younger son of Lord Raymar Royce, of the junior branch. They had three daughters, all of whom wed Vale lordlings. A Waynwood and a Corbray, for certain. The youngest... it might have been a Templeton, but...”

“Arya’s gone, the same as Bran and Rickon, and they’ll kill Sansa too once the dwarf gets a child from her. Jon is the only brother that remains to me. Should I die without issue, I want him to succeed me as King in the North. I had hoped you would support my choice.”

We also know that even lords can also seemingly choose their heirs and even have stipulations for those heirs. Why ? Because it’s actually a plot point in The Sworn Sword. Rohanne Webber (Tywin Lannister’s paternal grandmother) is her father’s named heir but there’s a stipulation, she has to be married or she will lose her rights to inheritance and it will instead go to her cousin Wendell Webber:

“Her lord father’s will demands it. Lord Wyman wanted grandsons to carry on his line. When he sickened he tried to wed her to the Longinch, so he might die knowing that she had a strong man to protect her, but Rohanne refused to have him. His lordship took his vengeance in his will. If she remains unwed on the second anniversary of her father’s passing, Coldmoat and its lands pass to his cousin Wendell.”

How is that a possible stipulation that Rohanne takes extremely seriously if not for the fact that inheritance is not clear cut and can be overridden by a will ? And this evidences further that a Lord or King can choose their own heirs.

Maegor disinherited Jaehaerys and made Rhaena’s daughter, Aerea, his heir.

Jaehaerys went against Andal inheritance tradition to pick Baelon over Rhaenys.

The lords at the Great Council doubled down on that decision by picking Viserys over Laenor which Jaehaerys upheld.

Aegon III’s regents pick Rhaena as his heir over Baela, despite the fact that Baela is the elder twin, because she’s too willful and wild and won’t accept a marriage pact they made for her.

Jeyne Arryn picks a distant cousin to be her heir instead of a closer relative with more traditional claim, the King’s regents back her decision.

Aerys II picked Viserys to be his heir when Rhaegar’s son Aegon was the traditional choice.

Doran Martell planned to make his son Quentyn his heir because he wanted his daughter Arianna to be queen conosrt of the Seven Kingdoms, she doesn’t know this and just assumes he’s pick Quentyn over her.

Walder Frey talks about picking his unborn son as his heir over his dozen or so adult sons.

Rodrick Harlaw offers to make Asha his heir to stop her from participating in the Kingsmoot.

Stannis offered to make Renly his heir instead of Shireen.

You will love this video by the former ozymalek, anon (now they are Youtube and Tiktok's "PhoenixAshes"). It basically speaks of exactly what you emphasize for Westeros--how heir voluntary designation was a real thing in real medieval Europe.

[aurynne]

my take on the fiction vs reality debate when it comes to being sexually attracted to young characters, presented with poorly edited pictures. eat my ass out in the replies but before you do, just know that having trauma doesn’t excuse any weird behavior.

[morningstar-chronicles]

so. i looked into it and i think i might be on the ace and aro spectrums? i didn't think i was but now i'm confused... i was just tryna google what myrromantic meant after @thesunnishboy came out i didnt think i'd like. identify with anything on the page 😭