#grishaverse discourse

[mentallydatingahotcelebrity]

No, this is called gaslighting. It’s blatant narcissism—she’s apologizing to someone who she can never possibly apologize to enough for actions that were never his fault. Sasha is a PRODUCT of her negligence. She literally talks about finding “the most powerful Grisha” and sleeping with him just to conceive Aleksander. The Grisha was so insignificant that she didn’t even remember the guy’s name. And she did that not once but TWICE. BUT THEN, after seeing that Sasha possessed her same abilities—instead of helping him understand them and loving him, giving him the childhood she felt she was denied (and wished she had), she blatantly despises their powers and called them a curse, and destructive, and awful. So this hapless BABY who did not wish to be born, who became an innocent, malleable CHILD, was raised into a young man taught to hate himself and what he is and that he’s dangerous and shameful—he and his mother were IN HIDING FOR CENTURIES because SHE was a truly awful person. He was taught only to fear and be afraid and to be hateful—but suddenly she “loved him”??? Telling him their powers were a curse is love, now???

𝕾𝖍𝖆𝖉𝖔𝖜 𝖆𝖓𝖉 𝕭𝖔𝖓𝖊 ꜱᴇᴀꜱᴏɴ 2 ʀᴇᴡᴀᴛᴄʜ #160 ↳ 𝟸.𝟶𝟼: 𝚗𝚒 𝚠𝚎𝚑 𝚜𝚎𝚜𝚑

[theweeklydiscourse]

There's just something about enemies to lovers antis that is just so funny. Because they go on, shaming womans/girls over silly fantasies saying that they are doomed to be in toxic relationships while being like "this piece of boring white bread and (most of times) toxic masculinity and immaturity hero is actually an much better lover interest for the FMC because *check notes* he's... her friend and does nice-ish things to her sometimes ig" like gurl how arent you catching the irony? Especifically if it's an woman saying crap like that.

Yep this is about kataang and Malina (thought Malina stans cant even say he was nice-ish to her)

They’re blind to how simplistic their line of reasoning is. However, that simplistic worldview brings them a weird kind of satisfaction. Not only does it validate their feelings of moral and intellectual superiority, it also allows them to indulge in salacious and sensational claims and gain internet points as a result. This blindness and simplistic thinking creates a funny scenario where, in fiction, they rail against grandiose villainy, but ignore the more realistic and mundane toxicity of their fave wholesome love interest™.

In ATLA’s case, I think this is partially due to most people’s foggy memory of the show. It’s become apparent to me that many people don’t actually remember certain details and are willing to smooth over the gaps in their memory with personal headcanons. This is how we got to this bizarre reality where people have reframed Kataang as some kind of uniquely progressive and ahead-of-its-time relationship, when in the actual show, it checks nearly every box for your garden variety 2000s heterosexual relationship. Nostalgia compels people to make excuses for the fact that the Kataang relationship centres Aang at every turn and neglects Katara’s end of their romantic arc.

In Malina’s case, it’s even more ridiculous because Mal is overtly worse as a love interest and was largely disliked by the Shadow and Bone fandom for a long time. It’s only in recent years that his reputation has been rehabilitated (and even then…) Then you have the odd contrarian with a vague recollection of the series who tries to gaslight people into thinking that Mal was good actually and that we were just being dramatic. Sure, Mal doesn’t have a particularly sizeable body count, but he commits the arguably greater crime of being an emotionally abusive boyfriend to Alina. He’s not even toxic in an interesting way like the Darkling, he’s just toxic in a way that will remind the teenage readership of their real-life terrible boyfriends. It’s downright comical that Bardugo ever thought Mal could ever be likeable.

The irony is palpable. The toxic masculinity and mundane emotional abuse is something they sweep under the rug because they are so persuaded by the image of a wholesome love interest. They can’t understand why more realistic depictions of relationships in fiction would be more impactful and evocative than that which is fantastical.

[taragreenfield]

On "soft" heroines

Very often, when I read the posts from people defending the "Ruin and Rissing" atrocious ending, I see the same argument (or rather an accusation): people allegedly don't appreciate soft heroines, they don't think that raising orphans is important and they want every female protagonist to be a girlboss.

There are a few problems with that argument. There is indeed nothing wrong with being soft. Nothing wrong with not wanting to rule the country or not being a fighter. Nothing wrong with wanting to raise children. However, being soft doesn't mean being blind to other people's suffering. If you build the world full of pain, death, wars, and oppression, have the protagonist be the one who is able to stop that, there should be the point where they realize that there are things bigger and infinitely more important than their personal wants and needs. Every soldier dying on the battlefield, every person brutally killed for their "crime" of being different probably would rather be anywhere else doing anything more pleasant, but alas. However soft one might be, they still might decide to help, even if not by fulfilling military or governmental functions. And if your protagonist just washes their hands of any responsibility just because they "never asked for this," they are not going to come across as soft and deeply sensitive; they are going to look selfish and cowardly.

Anyhow, there is an even more important thing: you can't just randomly decide that your heroine is soft and her biggest dream has always been raising orphans by the end of the series when there was nothing leading up to that conclusion for three books straight. A soft protagonist is someone deeply sensitive, kind, empathetic, caring for those less fortunate, someone who abhors violence and cruelty and naturally gravitates to the roles that don't require being ruthless or violent. And Alina just...doesn't possess those qualities. From page one, she seems bitter, grouchy, and unfriendly. She's outright hostile to any girl who looks at her precious Mal and immediately passes judgment on everyone. Every Grisha girl is fake and shallow, the Darkling is a heartless monster who doesn't feel anything, heartrenders are killing machines, and so on. She gets attacked by Fjerdans, learns that it's pretty much a normal occurrence for Grisha, and never thinks about it anymore. She learns that girls mock Genya for being abused by the King and just...doesn't care? Neither does she see any problem with the same king harassing other maids. She destroys a skiff, effectively killing a few dozen people, and doesn't think much about it, nor does she seem terribly upset with Grisha on the opposing side being killed. She comes across as narrow-minded, self-absorbed and extremely self-righteous, which looks especially grating considering her total ignorance about everything.

When she remembers her orphanage, it's always about her own experience; she doesn't express any concern for the other kids there or any interest in helping orphaned children in the future. She clearly doesn't want to have any responsibility, so being responsible for raising a bunch of traumatized children really seems like a terrible idea not boding well for herself or those poor children. What can she even offer them? She's not wise and knowledgeable, not caring and compassionate; she can't put herself into another person's shoes and doesn't want to even attempt to understand where they are coming from. She's petulant and immature; she is only going to mess those children up even worse, and using them as window dressing to showcase how noble and kind-hearted she allegedly is seems really hypocritical and dishonest. No, I don't care she "heals a little," or so she says, how are the kids feeling? The orphanage is supposed to be about them and their well-being, not her, no?

Finally, Alina's never shown being genuinely content with her "simple" life with no responsibilities as a saint or queen. In the beginning, she's weak and miserable because of her wasting sickness, she doesn't like her job, can't connect with other people, and pines after a guy who is much more popular than her and doesn't really care about her. In the end, she mourns her lost powers; she can't connect with other people; we don't see her being appreciated, respected, or loved by anyone, even the kids, all while her boyfriend is still way more popular and likable than her, and she's considered a lunatic. Doesn't sound very idyllic to me, more like a domestic thriller where nobody would believe the wife if she ever thought to complain, because her husband is "such a nice guy" and she's "a paranoid nutjob who forgot to take her pills again".

So, in conclusion, Alina is a terrible representation of a soft heroine who strives for an ordinary life and wants(or is able) to raise children, and such an ending suits her like a pair of ill-fitting shoes.

[greensaplinggrace]

“Character A didn’t love Character B because they hurt them” discourse is truly terrible because it assigns a moral value to love that simply does not exist. love doesn’t actually mean anything about someone’s character. it doesn’t make someone’s actions toward another any better or any worse, it doesn’t prevent atrocities, and it doesn’t prevent abuse.

love is a worthless emotion when it comes to morals because it simply holds no bearing on them. true love doesn’t exist. there is no better or more pure version of love. in the end love doesn’t mean anything. it’s a non-emotion. it’s the child of passion and affection and dedication. doing something bad doesn’t preclude a feeling of love, because a lack of love isn’t a requirement for immoral actions, and morality isn’t a requirement for feeling love.

[pookaseraph]

Leigh is actually pretty consistent: the tether is ‘connection opened’ and the amplifier is ‘power/surety flowing’. I’ve always headcanoned that the tether was in progress possibly from the first moment they touched (I’d have to reread, I don’t think this is directly supported) but the collar, the bite, and the chapel power fuck repeatedly deepened it ‘prematurely’.

Can you help me to understand the tether between Alina and Aleksander? I've seen people say that it was formed when he collared her but if that's true then why not use it when she's on the run from him? I always thought that's why he got his nichevo'ya to wound her and why he thanked her, because it allowed that connection to form. Am I wrong here?

Okay, well, I'm still re-reading, but...

They're written as two halves of the same whole. They're supposed to be complimentary opposites, that's why Aleksander's waiting for the Sun Summoner instead of settling for just any immortal, why he believes they're meant to be even after encountering other immortals' different worldviews and Alina's refusal to accept her own greatness. She won't only live long, they're bound by the Making, so she's predisposed to ~understand~ (And there are moments, when she does. Only her upbringing, issues and moral police companions prevent her from embracing what's between them.).

The first clear sign of their interconnection's showed during Winter Fete, although from the wording, I've missed at least two earlier ones:

The moment his lips met mine, the connection between us opened and I felt his power flood through me. I could feel how much he wanted me—but behind that desire, I could feel something else, something that felt like anger. I drew back, startled. “You don’t want to be doing this.” “This is the only thing I want to be doing,” he growled, and I could hear the bitterness and desire all tangled up in his voice. “And you hate that,” I said with a sudden flash of comprehension. He sighed and leaned against me, brushing my hair back from my neck. “Maybe I do,” he murmured, his lips grazing my ear, my throat, my collarbone.

Shadow and Bone- Chapter 14

"... the connection between us ..." suggests it's something Alina figured out exists before this time, so she didn't experience it only once.

Then there's the Collar that gives Aleksander access to Alina's powers, although it's not exactly clear how it works.

I had spared the stag’s life. The power of that life belonged to me as surely as it belonged to the man who had taken it. ... The Darkling looked momentarily confused. He narrowed his eyes, and I felt his will descend on me again, felt that invisible hand grasping. I shrugged it off. It was nothing. He was nothing.

Shadow and Bone- Chapter 19

Like: Sorry honey, either the power belongs to you both, or you have the upper hand.

I would kill for Aleksander's LOGICAL explanation.

The nichevo'ya bite deepened the Bond, that's why Sasha did it. My guess is it might be something about merzost affecting the Making, therefore the connection formed by it, AND the tiny little detail the creatures might be created with use of said force, but from his own being. He's basically running around donating his body fluids essence to his closest "enemies"... *wink wink*

We don't know more than what he tells Alina, so perhaps he could feel her presence before that. Perhaps Alina's youth and inexperience played bigger part in her use of their connection, than we think. Perhaps her many issues did. (I hate repeating this phrase, but THE WASTED POTENTIAL!) Why tell your stubbornly uncooperating soulmate you have an in-build compass to help you track them, if they left a trail of more profane kind?

[kuwylan]

follow up post to this edit i made!

SOC as Muppets

Constantine as Kaz Brekker

Gonzo the Great as Jesper Fahey

Scooter as Wylan Hendriks

Miss Piggy as Nina Zenik

Sam the Eagle as Matthias Helvar

...and at last, Inej Ghafa as Herself

#NotMyCrows because Nina is fat and Jesper is dark-skinned, but I'm using the S&B cast for simplicity and recognizability's sake! <3

[brainrotfromhorny]

The entirety of Siege and Strorm the Darkling is manipulating Alina, tempting her with power and sex and all that ✨ fun ✨ stuff. Meanwhile Mal is manipulating her like that guy you meet in college who is willing to hook up but he can't be together with you because this semester he's taking like, fifteen credits ;c

[castleofravens]

a lot of people in fandom spaces will hate/demonize female characters for the same reasons they love/romanticize male characters and sometimes it’s not holding male villains/anti heroes accountable for their actions the way that female villains/anti heroes are and sometimes it’s hating female heroes/anti heroes for their personalities/flaws/attributes/trauma responses whilst romanticizing male characters for having the same or very similar characterization?? like hi why so many double standards??

ALSO some of these characters are teenagers??teenagers are really fucking messy, like they’re not gonna make perfect decisions all the time and they might seem unlikeable at times bc they’re … still children …??

[a-map-of-gays]

The thing about all the characters is that they're perfect and can do whatever they want forever. Unless of course I don't like them in which case they should explode into a thousand pieces

[magpiesbones]

would you say mal was being and acting like a traumatized young man and lashing out accordingly or would you say he's . a misogynist who hated seeing alina be more powerful than him-

I’d say I’d like some more context for this ask????

Alina spends MOST of the trilogy being much more powerful than Mal and he seems to have for the most part no issue with this. She also spends most of the trilogy on a scale from mildly to suicidally depressed, which he takes a lot more issue with. He is essentially an accessory to her, and a symbol of stability and getting out of politics.

If you could perhaps send something with what part of what book you’re basing these interpretations off of, I’d appreciate it, since most of what I remember of these books is Alina’s arc and essentially nothing about anyone else.

[theweeklydiscourse]

Scars of Co-Dependency: The Link Between Alina’s Repression and Mal

The first chapter of Shadow and Bone ends with a musing about the strength of Mal and Alina’s love.

Their determination to stay together is so strong that even the Duke takes notice. From the way this scene is framed, coupled with the context of how their relationship concludes, the reader is led to believe that this is the essence of their bond (and they would be correct in that assumption). Not because this scene is an example of ideal romantic devotion, but because it illustrates the codependency and stagnation that defines their relationship. Notice the phrasing of “The boy and the girl” which becomes a recurring motif throughout the trilogy. Even when Alina and Mal are older, they are still referred to with these terms even though they have long outgrown them. It’s a romantic framing device that characterizes their relationship as a quaint and simple dynamic straight out of a folktale, but it also represents the way that their relationship keeps them trapped in childhood. Their over reliance on one another keeps them stagnant and stunts their growth, this is particularly clear in Alina’s case where her physical growth is literally stunted by the repression of her powers.

Alina’s repression is undeniably linked to her relationship with Mal. This connection becomes impossible to ignore in Alina’s flashback to the day the Grisha examiners came to see her.

Alina almost instantly recognizes the truth within herself and panics. In this panic, she makes the choice to deny her powers to remain with Mal at the orphanage, knowing that if she embraced her power, it would mean leaving Mal. She actively suppresses her true self to stay with Mal and for years after that day, she is forced to cope with the consequences. Alina’s great sacrifice to stay with Mal is not rewarded by love, instead, she is met with more hardship. For example, Alina doesn’t seem to have many close friends aside from the ones that are already friends with Mal:

Alina’s appearance is sickly and thin, hence the insulting nickname. But her thinness also suggests a kind of starvation of the self. By denying her Grisha identity, she denies her body the nourishment it needs to be healthy and strong. Because her sickness is connected to her repression, it also extends to her relationship with Mal from which the urge to suppress first originated. In an exchange with Genya earlier in Shadow and Bone, Alina displays her insecurity about her condition.

Her insecurity, her fatigue, her sickness; it all circles back to the choice she made to stay with Mal. It is only after her revelatory flashback and the acknowledgment of her loneliness that Alina is able to make progress in her training and awaken her true strength. This progress is accompanied by her letting go of her attachment to Mal and freeing herself from that emotional burden. Alina says, “I'm sorry I left you so long in the dark.I'm sorry, but I'm ready now.” and reaches a breakthrough. One of the ways this manifests is in her physical appearance and maturing body.

Even though the remnants of her insecurity remain, the joy Alina feels cannot be dismissed. It is astounding that this is only able to happen once she lets go of her past with Mal and begins loving her true self. Her maturing body symbolizes her departure from that childhood connection that was holding her back, bringing her forward into adulthood. Once she begins loving herself and the qualities that make her unique, she can bloom. Mal’s connection to Alina’s repression and insecurity is RIGHT THERE and once you begin to really examine it, the link is difficult not to see.

In the Netflix adaptation, this connection is visualized through the cut on Alina’s palm.

In this case, Alina’s choice to stay with Mal is visualized through an act of self-harm. She intentionally cuts her hand to sabotage the Grisha exam, scarring herself in the process. The pain of cutting herself is a sacrifice to stay by Mal’s side and though some might consider that as a romantic act of devotion, I see it as further evidence of their flawed relationship. In both the book and the show, Alina harms herself and is doomed to a life of repression in service of staying with Mal.

This connection makes the ending even more baffling. It feels intentional that Alina is able to mature, find independence, empowerment, and new friends once she lets go of Mal, yet the ending suggests otherwise. The codependent nature of Malina is RIGHT THERE and yet the narrative never does anything to critique it and instead, chooses to romanticize it. It really makes it feel as though Bardugo favours Mal and his personal fulfillment over the empowerment of her heroine. So much so that she’s willing to wreck the progression of Alina’s character arc.

[stromuprisahat]

character: *holds others responsible for their actions according to rules of the world* them:

me: Do you realize a society needs to have rules and means to enforce them, otherwise it will collapse into chaos?! That a well-written realistic world doesn't avoid punishing characters favoured by the narrative? That treating them like any ordinary person of their position is realism, not malice of those, who do it? That morality keeps shifting with time and due to various circumstances? That times of crisis have harsher rules than peaceful utopia? That judging past- albeit fictional- by modern rules doesn't only do disservice to everyone involved, but prevents you from understanding it? That reading should broaden your horizons instead of fitting characters you connect to into you-shaped form?

[taragreenfield]

Shipping shouldn't be about morality in the Grishaverse. It should be about crafting a more cohesive story than Leigh Bardugo. Let's not pretend she is progressive or cares about minorities of any kind. She didn't even care to portray slavic naming conventions correctly.

Hi, anon.

You are correct. Shipping shouldn't be about morality. Period. It's a fandom, not a convent; take your sermons elsewhere.

Shipping is about enjoying the dynamic between characters. It doesn't have to be healthy. It doesn't have to be "morally correct". No, I don't care that character A isn't "a good person." No, I don't care how many crimes they committed. I actually like my OTP to be two abhorrent people doing terrible things to each other, thank you very much. And no, I don't care what some rando from the internet thinks it says about me as a person either.

Most importantly, if someone believes that shipping two (or more) fictional characters is "immoral" , but harassing real people and calling them names over it is all good and righteous, their "morals" aren't worth a pin.

And yeah, judging by what I know about those books, Bardugo doesn't have to say anything of value about abuse, oppression, war, revolution, politics, religion, or Slavic culture. I find her way of handling serious issues absolutely perplexing in its flippancy.

Thanks for the ask!

[greensaplinggrace]

yeah you know what? I'm going to get into this. "don't humanize villains"/"this abuser is a monster" is some of the worst character discourse in fandom. abusers are not other. abusers are not always easy to recognize. othering someone who's done terrible things from humanity is an arrogant, poisonous idea.

that is a person who is doing those things, and you want so badly to be unable to fall into such patterns of harm and abuse that you will force that person into another category of species altogether, and in so doing you spare yourself from introspection and you give yourself a pretty little pedestal to stand on and you shame everybody who fell for a red flag that is surely so easy to recognize. and you give into prejudice you assign moral values to attributes outside of yourself and you think you are so above doing harm that you could never act in such a way, even as it is a capability within all of us to do so.

get off your self righteous high horse for a moment and use your fucking brain. I'm sick of people in fandom claiming to be the most moral members that are the "only people willing to discuss this" and then every statement out of their mouth is harmful and pervasive word vomit.

[kuwylan]

not to parody my own post by vagueposting another soc fan but really? that's how you pictured canonically dark skinned jesper and canonically fat nina? that's a self report if i've ever seen one...

[theweeklydiscourse]

One of the weirdest bits of discourse from the Shadow and Bone fandom was the notion that it was…bad and wrong to point out how Alina and Aleksander were eachothers’ balance. It was so ridiculous because I would see people claiming that reading them as a balanced pair was perpetuating the idea that Alina needed to “fix him”. People were so damn dramatic about it too, like please relax a bit. The fandom really acts like analyzing the text will lead you to ruin and that readers need to be shepherded through its meaning.