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percheduphere · 5 months

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LET’S TALK ABOUT EXPLORING LOKI & MOBIUS THROUGH THE LENS OF QUEER EXPERIENCE

Thank you for this request, @nabananab

Before I dig into this juicy ask, I think it’s important to note (however obvious the fact maybe) that an individual’s unique engagement with art is an inherent and integral part of art. The intention of the artist and the sociopolitical influence of culture, while important in our interpretation of a work, are not the sole source of drawing the work’s meaning. We are all artists in one form or another. I consider myself one of the pen, and nothing is more important to me than art giving someone a sense of emotional connection. I should hope other artists would agree, and for this reason I am an ardent believer in art taking on a life of its own once it has been created. The creator’s word, while it matters to some degree, does not supersede an individual’s relationship with the creation. Our histories, our desires, our fears, our likes, our dislikes, indeed our infiniteness as fragile human beings, allow us to create an elevated, spiritual interpretation beyond the confines of original intent. With art, there is no such thing as “reaching” or “reading too deeply”.

I leave this message with all of you as we look at these beloved characters through the lens of queer experience.

LOKI

Culture influences what we see and hear, which in turn influences artistic portrayal. Setting aside Norse myth, Marvel’s Loki is a classic example of a queer-coded villain (later canonized as a queer antihero). Deception, daggers, sexual temptation, transformation, and magic are all culturally tied to the “immoral” facets of femininity. Just as a strong, independent woman untethered to the control of man is deemed a “wicked woman”, a man demonstrating gender ambiguity and like qualities is similarly judged. Only masculinity is viewed as pure and good, and this no doubt was—and continues to be—a key force in white, western colonization’s destructiveness. It all but crushed our rich global history of divine femininity, gender diversity, and romantic and sexual expression.

Asgard, as Marvel portrays it, is without a doubt a masculine-dominant warrior society. Only two women feature prominently: Queen Frigga and Lady Sif. Whereas Sif embraces her masculine qualities and fits in easily with Thor and the Warriors Three, Queen Frigga embraces her feminine powers, though her authority is submissive to the All-Father, Odin. Her influence is most heavily seen in her adopted son, Loki, with whom she shared and taught magic in hopes that Loki might “feel some sun on himself” despite the “long shadows [Thor] and [Odin]” cast. The magic that Frigga gifts Loki, however, attracts scorn. The subtext here is that Loki’s specialness, his individuality, comes from feminine powers despite presenting as a man, and a gender ambiguous one at that. Unlike Thor and Odin, he is not masculine. While strong, he does not exhibit Thor’s brute strength. He is cautious, thoughtful, another feminine quality, whereas Thor’s courageousness often veers toward foolhardy and brash.

Thus, if Loki cannot be loved and accepted as he is (a queer person of another race), he will force love and acceptance through the power of the throne. Kings oft inspire fear, coercing subjects to love them whether they wish to or not. But we know Loki never truly wanted the throne. The throne is a mere distraction from, perhaps even a poor replacement for, what he truly wants: genuine love and acceptance that cannot be bought. Unfortunately, Loki believes he will never get these things, which is why, when Mobius questions him, Loki’s desire for control (Loki, King of the Midgard; Loki, King of the Nine Realms; Loki, King of Space) can never be satiated. Mobius challenges Loki for the exact purpose of revealing this to him. What do you really want? At this point, Loki does not have the words to form an answer. In S2E5, Syvlie raises the question Mobius originally asked in S1E1. It is then, after experiencing Mobius’s friendship and the other relationships that come to being as a result (including Sylvie’s), that Loki can articulate his answer.

Loki’s othering, even before the discovery of his true identity as a Jotun (an allegory for a villainized foreign race), creates a lonely environment in which Loki’s potential for goodness is quashed by centuries of resentment, bitterness, and jealousy. His attempts at masculinity take the form of violence, all of which are, as Loki admits in S1E1, “part of the illusion; the cruel elaborate trick conjured by the weak to inspire fear.”

Loneliness and the desire for love and acceptance are a universal human experience, but they are felt far more acutely within our intersectional queer communities.

MOBIUS

His fascination with Loki is compelling because there are many things we can infer about its reasons. The first, most obvious explanation is Mobius’s “soft spot for broken things”, which is in some ways tied to his qualities as a compassionate, forgiving, and supportive father. A secondary explanation is a wish for partnership. We know from S1 that Mobius’s friendship with Ravonna spanned eons. We later learn in S2E6 that he and Ravonna started out as peers, hunters. They were partners on the field, but where Mobius “failed” because of his humanity, Ravonna “advanced” because of her ruthlessness. This change in relational dynamics left him partner-less. Finally, a third, less obvious reason is Mobius’s desire to express himself in ways Loki does so effortlessly. That desire may come from the suppression and repression of his own softspoken queerness in order to survive the fascist culture of the TVA.

Mobius is captivating for many reasons. Whereas Loki is a textbook example of culture viewing “queerness as evil”, “queerness as flamboyance”, “queerness as stylishness”, “queerness as loudness”, “queerness as sexual promiscuity and deviance”, “queerness as chaos”, Mobius very much aligns with the image of a straight-passing, repressed queer individual. This is an identity that does not get as much attention or presence in artistic media as it deserves, for there are many who need this representation to reflect them. He is not stereotypically queer by any means: he is not colorful. He is not stylish, flamboyant, or loud. His sex appeal primarily derives from the viewers’ attraction to his personality, though it certainly helps that Owen Wilson is quite handsome.

Combine these three reasons, and it becomes easy to see how a character (or person!) like Mobius might fall in love with a character (or person!) like Loki.

There is a certain amount of beautiful irony in how Loki and Mobius affect one another and consequently their identities. Mobius, feeling compassion toward an individual who has been brutally othered and oppressed, seeks to free Loki from the confines of his narrative, as determined by the “Time Keepers”. The only feasible way to do this is to bring a variant of Loki out of the timeline and into the TVA. Mobius then provides Loki with the opportunity to change by: acknowledging Loki’s strengths, giving Loki the chance to use his strengths in productive ways, praising Loki when he does well, listening to Loki, believing in Loki, calling out Loki, and accepting Loki as he is, with all his history, without judgement. Mobius does not try to force change like Thor or Odin. Rather, he creates an environment in which change could happen naturally. This kindness and, indeed, what becomes unconditional love by the end of S1E4, allows Loki to embrace his authentic queerness with self-love and use his feminine powers for altruism rather than masking them with self-hatred and masculine rage.

FREEING LOKI

In S1E1, Mobius is enthralled with Loki’s hijinks as the handsome, charming, devil-may-care, D.B. Cooper. This minor escapade in Loki’s life, which was likely only intended for laughs by the writer, reveals something interesting about Mobius: Loki’s mischievousness, his magic, his cunning, are all quite endearing to him when no real harm is being inflicted. That is, Loki, when not under duress, is someone to be admired when he’s being himself. We admire in people what we wish we had in ourselves, and this, at times, may lead to powerful attraction.

Loki, for his part, does much the same for Mobius. The environment (the TVA) which allowed Loki to thrive is also the same environment that has abused and constrained Mobius.

The heat that Ravonna presses upon Mobius, however, changes his tone with Loki himself. When Loki asks Mobius why he “[sticks] his neck out for [him]”, Mobius provides Loki with two options to choose from: “A. He sees a scared little boy shivering in the cold, or B. He will say whatever he needs to say to get the job done”. Option A, while insulting, has compassion layered beneath the barb. Loki, an expert at cloaking truth with meanness, sees through this and indirectly chooses what he believes to be true in the cafeteria scene: that Mobius feels sympathy for Loki’s painful childhood. The subtext of this acknowledgement is that the true means to the end is reversed: Mobius doesn’t need Loki to catch the Variant on the timelines. Mobius needs the Variant to free Loki from the timelines. The Variant is an excuse and another agent of poetic irony: when Sylvie unleashes the multiverse, she literally frees Loki of his predetermined narrative.

The conceit of S1E1 is that Mobius intends to use Loki for the “good” of the Sacred Timeline. It is important to remember that characters, while not real, are meant to mirror human complexity. Multiple, seemingly conflicting things may be true concurrently. In S1E2, we see in Mobius’s conversations with Ravonna that he deeply believes in Loki’a capacity to be a wonderful person and wants him to have the opportunity to change. His enthusiasm for these things outshines his desire to catch Sylvie.

And, because the Variant is Loki, because Sylvie is Loki, because, as she says, “[they] are the same”, Mobius’s own freeing of Loki, his unconditional love for him, cascades from Loki to Sylvie. Sylvie would not be free to live as she pleases if not for Mobius’s compassion for Loki in the first place.

In S1E4, Loki reveals the TVA’s sham. Mobius’s sense of self becomes fragile alongside his sense of partnership with Loki. But because of our sociopolitical culture’s influence on capitalism, the creative voices of the Loki series self-censures what could be (what is) a queer romance. This self-censureship makes itself known in Mobius’s own self-censureship. His jealousy and heartbreak cannot be spoken directly. It must be spoken through the words of a woman, someone who presents as the opposite sex. Through a looping memory of a scornful Sif telling Loki, “You are alone and always will be”, Mobius makes known the nature of his feelings for him.

BUT WHO WILL FREE MOBIUS?

In the same cafeteria scene in S1E2, Loki asks Mobius if he’s ever ridden a jet ski. Mobius’s response is demure, saying him riding one would “cause a branch for sure”. The jet ski gives the audience another clue as to what Mobius seeks in life: something fun, thrilling, and reckless. Yet Mobius sets aside his desires for what he believes is for the good of the TVA, and thus humanity. This suppression and repression of authentic selfhood mirrors the queer experience of living within a heteronormative culture, especially one with religious doctrines that equate pleasure with sinfulness.

Because Mobius extended his heart, his partnership, his love (symbolized by twin daggers hidden in his locker [a closet]; notably a male phallic symbol of which there are a pair [partners]) and was soundly rejected, Mobius retaliates with the loneliness he himself feels. This loneliness may be interpreted as an allegory for the loneliness of being closeted as opposed to the loneliness of being out but othered.

Ultimately, Mobius’s love for Loki shifts from selfish desire to unconditional love when he chooses to help Loki save Sylvie. In S1E5, it is conspicuous that after delivering Sylvie safely to Loki’s side, Mobius’s partings words are, “Guess you got away again”, to which Loki replies, “I always do”, which echos the lover’s trope of “the one that got away”.

[It drives me absolutely bananas that I can't find the specific gif I need when I literally saw it multiple times earlier this week but didn't need it THEN]

Owen’s acting choice is interesting here. He laughs, smiles, then looks down before looking up again, his eyes shifting from fondness to what feels like longing. Mobius extends his hand, a sensible choice for someone who believes his love is unrequited and is unsure of how Loki defines their relationship. Loki, appreciating what Mobius has done for him, closes the distance with an embrace and thanks Mobius for his friendship.

In S2E1, upon Loki’s time-slipping into the war room, whatever apprehensions Mobius had about physical contact was wiped away by the collapse of the TVA and the memory of Loki’s hug. In this scene, it becomes clear to Mobius that Loki is panicking. He makes the executive decision to use his physical contact as a grounding force, relocates Loki to a quiet environment, asks after Sylvie with no bitterness in his voice, then prioritizes Loki’s physical well-being. Perhaps, in Mobius’s view, his love is unrequited, but there is nothing in place to stop him from expressing that love more freely while honoring Loki’s feelings for Sylvie. This regard, which may be construed as platonic, may also be viewed romantic, courtly love.

The fight between Loki and Sylvie in S1E6 sets the stage for Mobius to receive Loki and become a refuge for heartbreak.

S2E2 and S2E3 has Loki’s and Mobius’s temperaments when it comes to investigating flipped. In S1, Mobius was focused on the mission and often had to reign in Loki. In S2, Mobius is more casual, more willing to take his time and enjoy the sleuthing as it unfolds, while Loki administers pressure to stay focused. The question is why?

In S2E2, Brad attacks Mobius’s sense of self. He points out how weird it is that Mobius is not at all curious about looking at his timeline and stresses that the TVA, and everything in it, isn’t real. Brad calls into question Mobius’s reason for staying. Knowing that the answer is Loki, we can surmise through the queer lens that Brad also corners Mobius into potentially outing himself in front of the object of his affections, someone he believes does not return his feelings, and whose knowledge of those feelings may threaten their friendship. This is a traumatic experience for queer people in the real world, and this extra layer of emotional conflict adds depth to Mobius’s violent response.

Mobius influenced Loki in a myriad of ways. One that has not been discussed yet is an appreciation for focus and order. Loki, in turn, has cracked the door open for Mobius to explore pleasure. We can speculate that, in his own way, Mobius is testing what happiness could look like living a life between the TVA and the timelines. For him, this means cocktails at the theater, cracker jacks, and exploring the World’s Fair, all of which are pleasurable on their own but are even more so with Loki’s company. His queerness, once again, is quiet, mundane, but playful in its own right, and finally brave enough to explore. These scenes suggest that Mobius is indeed happy at the TVA and, as we see in the finale, this happiness is solely rooted in his relationship with Loki and the emotional intimacy they share together.

Loki expresses concern for Mobius, noting that he has “never seen him like that before.” Mobius, interestingly, deflects every concern by absurdly blaming Loki: “He got under your skin”, “I was following you!” The psychological undercurrent here is that Loki is the reason why Brad got under Mobius skin. Loki is the person that Mobius will follow.

Loki takes Mobius’s distress in stride, responding in a way the Mobius normally would. However, Brad’s question piques his interest, and his own care for Mobius prompts him to gently challenge Mobius’s lack of interest in his own timeline. Mobius’s reason for avoidance is, “What if it’s something good?”

In S2E5, it’s interesting that “good” in this narrative is defined as a heteronormative fantasy of a house, two kids, and (possibly) a puppy and a snake. The “good” in Mobius’s original timeline, however, is imperfect. There is a partner that is missing (partners being a recurring theme in the series, particularly in S2E3), pronounced gone not once but twice. The entire scene between Don and Loki has been discussed at length by many, so there’s no need to reiterate it here. However, let’s bring our attention to Mobius’s avoidance of this “good” because this avoidance resonates with another queer experience.

The TVA, for Mobius, is the place where he studied, saved, and developed a close relationship with Loki. The fear of the “something good” is the fear of being confronted with something Mobius “should” want more than the TVA, and therefore “should” want more Loki. The fear is wanting something (or feeling pressured to want something) other than a queer relationship with no children. The question of “choice” is impacted by what is considered the “norm”.

S2E5 very pointedly focuses on the concern of choice, especially Mobius’s choice, in the bar scene between Loki and Sylvie. “Mobius should get a choice now, no?” At this point, Loki’s regard for Mobius has finally caught up with the romantic nature of Mobius’s feelings for him. And Loki, living his own queer experience, is also afraid of his true desires like Mobius. In being part of the intersectional queer community, the psychological need to guard against disappointment is high and commonplace. Desires are easily disappointed by the expectations of oppressive social mores. This survival tactic manifests itself with our hope and heartbreak with mainstream media, Loki the series being among them.

But Sylvie, the harbinger of true and absolute freedom, takes on the role of supportive ex and challenges Loki to answer Mobius’s question in S1E1: “What do you want?”

In this, Mobius and Loki’s individual relationships with the TVA are identical. It was never about where (the TVA), when (time works differently at the TVA), or why (the timelines). It was about who. It was about each other. The TVA represents a liminal space which became home by virtue of the people who brought love into it. The TVA is code for Loki and Mobius when each speaks of it.

Again, the artists behind the media must self-censure. In this, Loki also self-censures while giving the truth. “I don’t want to be alone. I want my friends back.” It cannot be denied that Mobius is Loki’s first truest and closest friend. “I don’t want to be alone. I want Mobius back.” Sylvie appreciates and validates this desire, but also points out that showing the TVA is something that cannot be unseen. The implication of this response suggests that Sylvie believes that Loki’s friends will feel compelled to join the TVA out of moral pressure. She reiterates the true lives that are being lived, and Loki, loving his friends, loving Mobius, elects to not take that away from them. “You are just fine without the TVA.”

Yet, Loki must choose an act of profound selfless love to save everyone. In doing so, he saves and frees Mobius in the way Mobius saved and freed him. The tragedy and, once again, poetic irony is that they both would have chosen each other. In giving everyone freedom, the true freedom of Loki and Mobius is sacrificed. This double-standard reflects in our reality between those who identify as cis and heterosexual and those who do not.

When Mobius looks at his timeline in S2E6, he does so for one reason: that timeline survived because of Loki’s sacrifice. He must honor that sacrifice and see what Loki protected. Mobius appreciates what he finds, but he doesn’t belong there. It is not what he ultimately longs for. And there must be worry, shame, in recognizing he would prefer to give up the house and two children if a life with Loki were a viable choice.

We all experience loss in our lives. Loss without a goodbye is also commonplace but is another pain that is more acute within the intersectional queer community. I speak of missed opportunities for happiness due to external forces. I speak of loss of self. I speak of loss of friends and family and home. I speak of death, losing a loved one without a goodbye, because same-sex lovers are not considered next of kin, an impossibility without marriage. Marriage echoes back to Don, who has no spouse, and Mobius, who has no partner.

#asks #loki #mobius #lokius #loki season 2 #loki series #loki meta #my meta #loki analysis #my analysis #queer community #queer #queer representation #queer relationships #lgbt representation #lgbtq community #lgbtqia

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theartsyghost · 7 months

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The new Loki episode comes out tonight and if it’s revealed that Mobius only cares for Loki because he is a Thor variant, I will be pissed off.

I’m not just saying this as a Lokius shipper, which is a whole other conversation, because marvel, without a doubt, utilized their queer audiences when marketing the season, and if they were to throw in a twist, it would be incredibly disheartening.

However, I am saying this as a fan of Loki, the character, he has been through so much and so much development and if the twist is that nobody is capable of caring for him other than his mother and brother, I will be inevitably disappointed.

Also, Mobius is his own character and I don't want him to just be a Thor replacement. I would much rather see him discover that he was just a normal person, with a normal life.

I guess we can’t do anything but sit back and watch.

#lokius #loki season 2 #loki series #loki laufeyson #mobius m mobius #mobius #queer artist #mcu #marvel #marvel cinematic universe #queer ships #queerbaiting #loki #loki spoilers #loki show #loki x mobius

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pluto22valcarol23 · 6 months

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Valcarol is Cannon

this is kind of all over the place, I will try to do a better post at some point but no promises okay so is it cannon?

I desperately want this to be real. Like that kiss on the cheek…iconic amazing I will watch that’s scene on repeat

but is this real, for the rest of the movie it was not addressed and I don’t think marvel has talked about it. I desperately want this to become a larger plot point. I feel like marvel is moving in the right direction

however there is that spot in the back of my mind saying it’s too good to be true and I’m just being queerbaited

but the pet names!

and the fact that Carol seemed very uncomfortable with the whole marriage thing while also denying it constantly

also can we talk about how Monica and kamala seemed totally unfazed. Is this jut marvel ignoring it or did they see it coming. Did Monica grow up knowing that Maria and Carol were together? Kamala is obviously and total valcarol shipper. Like her and Carol did the bisexual finger guns at each other (I’m still convinced that Carol is a lesbian with the whole marriage thing only further proving it)

also like I feel like this is the beginning of a new era for marvel. They are introducing the young avengers (who are very gay), queer characters are getting more representation, marvel is growing up with their audience, this also means changing how they represent characters

overall o feel like the movie was amazing, I have seen a lot of mostly male YouTubers calling it okay but not the best. Overall I feel like this appeals to me a lot more because I can actually see myself in the characters, I am also able to recognize some of the less than savory aspects of some marvel movies

I will try to do a whole the marvels post and stuff at some point and talk about Loki but I had to just rant about valcarol

#mcu #marvel #captain marvel #carol danvers #nick fury #carol x valkyrie #lesbian #the marvels 2023 #valcarol #valkyrie #the marvels #Bisexual #kamala khan #maria rambeau #carol danvers x maria rambeau #monica rambeau

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gabrielsbubblegumbitch · 2 months

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do you have any opinions on the hazbin critical and vivziepop critical tags?

tw // mentions of sexual abuse and sucide

I have a personal beef with them. And not because I love Hazbin and Vivzie so much but for more presonal reasons so the following opinion won't be measured at all.

Now, don't get me wrong, there are some legit criticisms out there. Like, the show could definitely do better with body diversity and giving us more varied sapphic relationships instead of just throwing a ton of male/male couples at us. And, yeah, Vivzie's response to some of the criticism has been... questionable. (I still cringe when I think about that one time she explained that Raphielle can ship ValAngel because they are sa survivor, but Raphielle explicitly admitted to not be one).

But then, there's stuff that's just... pulled out of nowhere. Like the whole thing about Valentino being a "fetish character." Come on, the world of villains is filled with queer, flamboyant baddies. What sets Valentino apart is how his abusive behavior is shown in the open, making us rethink our love for villains. If it weren't for Mascarade, people would worship this moth daddy gangster in a dress, much like they are with Vox now. It's hard to root for the bad guy when you see the fallout of their actions. Like, Loki committed war crimes and no one was outraged when he got his own TV series and dragged creators for supporting atrocities.

Constant Valentino/Angel Dust discourse actually leads to the more serious issues I have with this "community", more harmful than just "bad media literacy" like the way they handle the topic of sexual abuse and weaponize it, without ever listening to victims. There is this constant shitstorm about Angel being a "bad sa survivor rep," that the way he's written is insensitive because "he shouldn't be horny, he's sexually traumatized." Like, do these people not understand that making Angel unable to enjoy his sexuality the way he wants would essentially mean acknowledging that it's no longer his but belongs to his abuser now? Also, the argument I keep seeing that drives me BAT SHIT CRAZY aka "I can enjoy this media that is centered around murderer, you cannot enjoy the media that treats rapist as a nuanced character because rape is objectively worse than murder." WHO THE FUCK TOLD YOU THAT? Reading this makes me feel so angry and sad and guilty because frankly, I was raped, and of course, it was horrible but still I'd choose it any time over being murdered. Because I have my life, I'm loved, and I love, I pursue my dreams, and I can still experience so many good things in my life. Painting sexual assault as this worse-than-death experience is not the feminist take they think it is and does not do victims any good.

Or accusations that Vivzie's support of fandom bullying led to someone taking their life. It's such a ridiculous and harmful claim. Honestly, this thing always makes me heated because suicide is not an easy decision, ask any person who ever faced it. It's not like "ah, this stranger told me to kms, I guess I gotta do it now." Of course, any kind of bullying and abuse adds to the suffering and can be the final trigger, but to me, it's just so disrespectful and harmful that someone could have experienced prolonged, intense suffering and all of this is omitted, their death labeled as a result of "fandom bullying" and weaponized in fandom drama. Also, it's simply cruel to put the blame for it on one, uninvolved person.

Also, it always annoys me when people hold small creators to immensely high standards while not doing the same with others. If we keep lynching and canceling every media that is not objectively morally pure, we won't be left with only perfect media. We will be left with media produced by white, privileged billionaires who might be real-life rapists, abusers, and thieves but are too powerful to be taken down by social media outrage. Hazbin's success is a major W for the underappreciated medium of animation (we saw what WB did to 90% of their animated shows), unpopular genres like musicals (Wonka creators were literally too ashamed to market it as one??), and unapologetic queer narratives that are not written for a heteronormative audience or centered around queer oppression (ofmd, the other medium I can think of in that realm has just been canceled). I can't stand people so desperate to put it down driven by their black-or-white sense of morality. Kant won't be patting your back for being the Moraliest Person because you bullied an indie creator and her fans.

Also everyone who feels the need to explain me hazbin critical agenda - save your breath. I'm very emotional about it and I frankly don't fucking care why you think you are right.

#hazbin hotel #ask #tw sui #tw sa #vivziepop

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oswildin · 7 months

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I really hate the fighting between Lokius and Sylki shippers.

Unpopular Opinion: I’m on both teams. I ship both of these pairings. Hell I even like Sylvie x B-15. Give me two characters and I’ll find a way to ship them - okay, maybe not all but you get what I’m saying.

My point is, why can’t people just be allowed to enjoy what they enjoy?

I understand the importance of queer characters & pairings, and Loki himself is canonically queer, but that shouldn’t mean we fight each other about what ship is more cannon, or what ship is better or whatever else there is to possibly argue about. I think we can agree marvel isn’t the best (like most shows and money making corporations) at portraying queer characters and relationships.

But just because someone ships Sylvie and Loki, doesn’t mean it’s a personal attack on the ship of Loki and Mobius.

I think both ships are beautiful in their own way.

Mobius was Loki’s first proper friend. He showed Loki it was okay to let down your defences, he was with him till the end (a few wobbles but that’s friendship), and above all he cares for Loki. He risked his skin (literally) to save him and anchor him to the timeline. His first thought was ‘okay let’s sort you out before anything else’ with his time slipping, and helped calm him down from his panicked state, wanting to ensure he was okay. He loves Loki (take that as you will).

Sylvie was the first person Loki was able to relate to personally, knowing how she felt, seeing what it did to her. He began to understand himself because of her. He realised there was more to life than power and a throne, that he was capable of caring for another selflessly. She made him feel how he most likely made Thor feel many times. Betrayed. And it was an important step that Loki needed to take, but he still chose to try and find her because he knows she needs him. She is a complex character, like Loki. He loves Sylvie (take that as you will).

Very different ships. Very different dynamics. Very different people.

Besides, it’s Loki. He probably fancies them both.

(also I’m not that active in either communities because of the drama, but I observe and quietly ship to myself. both ships.)

EDIT: I WANT TO CLARIFY— I didn’t mean that Lokius shippers are the problem, or Sylki shippers, that’s not what this was about. I see my wording may come across that way, I just meant visa versa. Neither ship should diminish the other, or be a personal attack!

#loki #lokius #sylki #sylvie laufeydottir #loki laufeyson #loki series #mobius m mobius #mobius x loki #loki x sylvie

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yourlakebed · 7 months

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ok, I'm back with a fresh episode of "Queerbaiting Continues" (subscribe and follow for more)

so, to clear up that i get it right - what we're getting from Loki2 so far is this: creators are actively setting up Loki and Mobius (while still not confirming them to be canon) and not even trying to actually set up Loki with Sylvie (and not addressing the kiss even once throughout all four episodes).

okay then, I'm having some thoughts.

so i see everyone in the fandom analysing how well Loki understands Mobius' coping mechanisms earlier in the season that he decides to offer him some pie after Mobius had been in lots of stress. and that it's exactly what Mobius wants to do now, before Sylvie guts him and walks away with Loki following her.

but what i don't see enough (maybe it's just me idk) is the analysis of the "pie land" dialogue between Loki and Sylvie in ep.4

so right away Loki starts defending Mobius explaining that just because he's not acting insane like Sylvie does (like Loki did in the past) that doesn't mean he doesn't care. and he also points out that Sylvie is here not because she shares Loki's beliefs, but only because her plan failed.

but after that.. this is where the scene goes INSANE in my humble opinion: Loki turns the moral of the whole first "Thor" movie and "the main hero's journey to become the best versoin of himself" into huge metaphor of his own growth. growth that he achieved through the first season and continues on going that path. so what was that then, the thing that helped Thor to change so much? the thing that turned him from insufferable, angry, revengeful, arrogant child whose first impulse is to destroy anything that causes some kind of inconvenience?

love.

it was falling in love with Jane that made Thor revalue his morals and his behavior. and now Loki is standing before Sylvie telling her that not long time ago he mocked his brother for his "softness" thinking it to be a weakness. but now Loki understands Thor. so what is he saying with this? who was this person for Loki, that made him change and understand his brother? understand that the lack of desire to destroy is actually not a weakness. who was that?

Mobius.

it was Mobius that made him better as a person.

so, at this point, friends, i actually don't know what to think. because it's not even a classic example of queerbaiting anymore. that one was hidden very deeply under the surface and was caused by the state of the industry, which simply did not have the niche for the queer media and was profoundly scared to lose it's homophobic audience because they thought that it was practically not possible to make money on queer audience. this is not the case now. it looks a lot like creators do know what they're doing writing scenes like this one, which honestly makes it even worse than if they were simply oblivious.

#am i actually being queerbaited in the year 2023???#queerbaiting continues #loki #lokius #mobius #loki 2

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p4nishers · 6 months

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cycling back again to s2 EP1 having a scene of Loki going 'before everything falls apart I have to tell you something' in a scene that is structured just the same as the 'I have to tell you something' to Sylvie in s1 that everyone assumes was an aborted love confession. and then they never tells him. WHAT was that.

such an INSANE parallel to have bc RIGHT BEFORE they're presumably about to confess something to sylvie they say "im not very good at this" and the same is IMPLIED with the lokius scene that loki is not good at talking about their feelings but they will still try for mobius. also how both times they're interrupted somehow only the second time they're basically interrupted by their own emotions because they time slip and we know now that their tine slipping was tied to their emotions so they were probably not ready to confess to mobius or even to themselves really since we see them struggle to articulate what they want later in the season and that's just like. dude. you wrote a love story. loki writers wrote a fucking queer love story. insane.

#loki season 2 #loki series #mobius m mobius #lokius #loki

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kurtiplier · 6 months

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LOKI SEASON 2 FINALE SPOILER WARNING

hey. hey wait a second. in mobius' life on the timeline as don, he had a wife. and she's said to be long gone. don also kept bringing up the fact he's single. he's probably lonely. not that he doesn't love and care about his sons, he does, but I think they remind him of his wife and their life together as well, and his kids are young and he doesn't want them to see their dad struggling. maybe it happened fairly recently. don, in fact, seems incomplete and a little discontent still. he enjoys jetskis though. fond memories? a distraction?

and now mobius doesn't have loki around anymore either. he's also long gone. mobius reads his own file...don's file, and then he goes and looks at don's life on the timeline and realizes he had two kids (who are interestingly into fire and snakes), had a wife at one point, and is a jetski salesman. but at the same time...it's not exactly him.

and our mobius doesn't even have any of that. and he can't, and wouldn't take that away from don to live that life himself. and from what we know from a bit of mobius' backstory, he hasn't always had an easy time making hard decisions, and he has a lot of empathy. he's also like, the resident loki expert of the tva. he's fascinated with him. maybe there's a reason. a memory slipping through, like the jetskis. having loki around made the tva feel more like home to mobius. now without him...why would he stay?

I don't think it's impossible that a variant of loki, whether she looked just like the loki we all know or not (doesn't matter being the genderfluid, likely all-pronouns using god that they are), that loki was mobius' wife.

in my opinion, they took a queer love story, and put it through a seemingly hetero lens that the casual audience, and homophobic viewers especially, wouldn't be able to pick up on. I think it was the only way the writers came up with to get a canon confirmation of lokius into the show.

maybe I'm wrong, but that's just my two cents. I just can't imagine they dropped all those clues and symbolism and were vague about things for no reason. well...homophobia and censorship reasons, they had enough issues when they confirmed mcu loki's bisexuality in season 1, but I'll be damned if canon lokius didn't genuinely matter to anyone in that writing room. everything that was written there felt deliberate. it's sad that it has to be queer-coded in a time where so many shows are able to be explicitly queer, but disney/marvel has historically always struggled with showing that, so I can't say I'm very surprised.

I know in my heart that lokius is canon because of that final scene. I just hope that some way, somehow, mobius finds loki again, or at least finds purpose again. he doesn't deserve to be alone, just like loki doesn't. that's all I want to see. that can't be the end. I just want them to be okay. :(

#yeah I've been sobbing about this #nice to get it into words and off my chest #lokius #loki #loki spoilers #mobius #mobius m mobius #owen wilson #tom hiddleston #loki laufeyson #loki season 2 #loki series #marvel #mcu #they are so to be loved is to be changed :(#I feel UNWELL #reminded me of the good omens S2 ending too

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charcubed · 7 months

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Look, I personally lose nothing if Lokius doesn’t become explicit canon. And if that were to become the case, I’d also have no regrets for saying for years that that would happen in the show by the end ¯_(ツ)_/¯

I’ve said it before, but by now it would be Disney/Marvel’s loss, NOT mine. Whoever wasted or limited the potential would be the idiot, not me.

I’m simply never gonna feel crazy for noticing what’s happening in a story or silly for daring to hope it’ll be brought to fully satisfying narrative completion. That's just a me thing. Maybe this is because at heart I’m stubborn! But I’d like to think I’m not unreasonable. I can’t control whether writing stays consistent or censorship is overcome... But I just do my best to construct solid arguments, and as long as those arguments remain solid, I stand by them :)

I know not everyone would say the same, or they consider this to be "hope" or "optimism," but I see it as logic based in noticing what the text of a show/story is doing. And personally I also consider blatantly evident subtext to be "canon enough," so if we get my personal minimum, my happiness may still outweigh any potential disappointment for me.

However. Here's what I've come here to say today, in reaction to things I've seen floating around in the fandom:

While I do understand on some level why people worry that Lokius won’t be more explicitly canonically romantic because it could be censored by Disney.... At this point, I don’t understand how people can think Loki/Sylvie will still happen.

As of right now, there’s no way to argue for that in my opinion. (I'd like to see someone try.)

The show has set up a fun but very simple situation from basically the start:

They made romantic love a point of relevance in the show’s story. More specifically, they pointed out Loki's desire for a "real" romantic love, and had him learn the lesson that he doesn't deserve to be alone. They didn't HAVE to do all of those things and tie them together. They CHOSE to make romantic love relevant – and they have actively continued to choose to do that, to the point of including a mirrored dark love triangle in s2 ep3. That narrative thread simply has to be fulfilled.

So if they deliberately established that Loki wants and needs a “real” love, and his relationship with Sylvie was referred to as "fiction" so she cannot be a real love for him.... Who does it have to be?

Obviously it has to be Mobius. And of course, the whole show points to Lokius also, for countless more reasons than just this simple breakdown. But pointing this element out is the simplest argument one can make.

So either...

1. They take Lokius to full narrative completion with explicit canon, as they should and as I expect them to,

2. Loki's desire for a real love is left unfulfilled, open-ended, and/or made clear through subtext that it's Mobius.

Those are the options, if you ask me!

This is aside from how Lokius’ love story is now even at the core of the show’s themes and plot, which is an insanely strong vote in favor for their future canonicity.

But for the purposes of this post, I’m talking about whether we'll get explicit romance specifically, like a love confession or a kiss – and I do actually genuinely think we'll get both of those things. I'm not trying to force you to agree with me, but just to be clear, that's where I'm at with it and have been since 2021 lol.

So in regards to worrying about Loki/Sylvie...

They were never really a romance (yes, even in season 1) and they sure as hell aren't now. I can’t imagine they'll become one even IF Lokius is left subtextual.

So what actually remains to be seen is if the writers got to go all the way with Lokius, or if that central queer love story was censored on some level in the end.

My hot take is no one should be ~worrying~ about Sylki at this stage of the game. Free yourselves, people.

If the story starts abruptly going in a Sylki direction, even with only 3 episodes left, I will certainly be the first to say so lol. But I simply sincerely, truly doubt that'll happen.

(Hot take in the footer: this is not the post to get into this at length, but in case this comes up… In this house we do not use the word "queerbaiting." It is a useless, nearly-meaningless, insufferable term that devalues the legitimacy of subtext and queercoding more often than not; it's rooted in the idea that media must hit arbitrary and inconsistent checklists often set with cishet approval in mind; and it perpetuates a focus on the false and harmful myth that many creators are "cowards" instead of leaving room for nuance and the fact that industry censorship still exists.)

#in theory: either we win or we REALLY fucking win.#felt worth posting this little disclaimer since some people are starting to actually see my meta over here?? which is new. hi #how many times can I remix and expand upon my old words from twitter to make a larger tumblr post? the limit does not exist #loki meta #lokius meta #loki #loki show #loki series #chars loki posts #lokius #meant for this post to be shorter. F #I'm not even done crossposting all my meta from last night yet. sorry to all my tumblr followers

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lokiiied · 6 months

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thinking about loki’s 400 year long stare at mobius when he says, “it’s about who”

and then how he looks at sylvie and says, “i can rewrite the story” and how she has her own story - without romance. how she told him to “write his own story” and how he’s now canonically god of stories/storytelling.

thinking about how if they make lokius canon, marvel’s first major canonically queer character will have “rewritten” the cishet centred narrative that a major audience is expecting and just how powerful that would be.

because, as much as i like the bisexual “confirmation” scene - it was very easy to look over if you’re a homophobic viewer or don’t know what bisexuality is. because they never had either of them say the words, “i am bisexual”. that and how they “dealt” with loki’s genderfluidity.

but a major gay couple?? with the healthiest and most intimate relationship i’ve EVER seen marvel write?? that would not be so easy to ignore. especially when you go back and see that it’s been there the whole time. if you knew what to look for. which, is honestly probably the queer vision in a nutshell. because cishets will be blind to anything if they see a man + woman option. they need “undeniable” proof. marvel knows that & it’s why they’ve gotten away with this. why they’re still “safe” for most of their anti-queer audience.

but just imagine, if loki fixes all this, get his friends back, and shows mobius know how he really feels and basically says “this has been the love story the whole time” THAT will be his legacy. in all the glorious i’m a god and i’ve been bad and i’m good and i’m queer and i have inherent worth just like everybody else and i don’t give a fuck loki fashion. and i hope to gods we get to see that.

that’s the story i want to see.

because if they turn around and give us sylki — (and in doing so say here’s a perfect example of a healthy gay relationship but instead we’re gonna give you a toxic genderbent selfcest romance) regardless of the fact we know they are both queer — that is not what a homophobic audience is going to see. they’re going to be satisfied that they didn’t see two men kissing on their screen and call it another win. and marvel would be continuing to encourage the idea that us queer fans are delusional - despite the clearly intentional writing.

not to mention the exhausting, intrinsically homophobic harassment & clowning lokius shippers have endured would actually not be for nothing if lokius were canon and marvel were to decide btw queer people are real and so are their stories and so is their love.

if the show about the genderfluid bisexual god of stories can’t accomplish that after all this character development then. idk.

#like even if you ship sylki you have to understand this #marvel has one of the largest fanbases in the world #and they have queerbaited to the max with this show #in order to draw a queer audience #so yeah. if they make sylki canon OF COURSE it’s homophobic & sexist #and we have every right to be mad about it #marvel are fucking cowards all they care about is money #anyways #lokius endgame #lol #lokius #loki #loki season 2 #loki spoilers #marvel

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scarrletmoon · 7 months

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it's izzy hands it's kylo ren it's billy from stranger things it's snape it's draco it's loki circa 2012-2014 it's a REPEATED PATTERN throughout all of fandom of an antagonistic white guy getting a devoted fanbase that is both disproportionate to his importance in the story and also misunderstands the white guy's role as an antagonist. they think their mean little guy is a misunderstood victim and they base their entire fandom experience around him. and then in season 2 ofmd went and redeemed izzy before killing him off to further ed's arc, something that is a solid choice from a technical writing standpoint but from a fandom perspective it built the izzy fans up into thinking they were right about how izzy has never been homophobic, izzy is a poor downtrodden abuse victim, and from day one izzy has been a protector and the only competent guy around and a loyal and dutiful first mate. and possibly the most significant part is that so many izzy fans have accidentally and unknowingly tricked themselves into thinking that izzy is a main character bc their fandom engagement revolves so heavily around izzy that they forgot the actual show itself doesn't, so they were completely blindsided by a death that has been foreshadowed since season one ("im not dying, not for that twat and not for you" and "only retirement we get is death" and the whole "plumb the depths, man" sequence where izzy was talking to stede through a death shroud ffs). and i want so bad to just ignore it but we literally got a queer romcom centered around an interracial couple and an incredibly diverse cast and an indigenous main character and a diverse writer's room and the season ended on a happy note and it's all about queer joy AND YET. soooooooo much of the post-season discussion has to center around the white side character!!! even in death izzy hands takes up a disproportionate amount of the fandom conversation and im exhausted. it's every fandom! every fucking time!! this isnt anything new this is the same time-honored fandom tradition of white man favoritism YET A-FUCKING-GAIN and im SO FUCKING TIRED OF IT!!!!!!!!!

(i get so scared when i turn on anon bc i’ve consistently gotten such shitty, cowardly messages through it but i’m glad this isn’t one of them lmao)

i know i’ve said this 374748 times but the last time i made the kylo ren/snape/white villain connection on twitter (i mean that’s on me, it’s twitter) i had people legit furious with me for calling them nazis which………..i literally never said

and i get the frustration. trust me, I GET IT. the white villain problem smashes right into white fragility and makes it almost impossible to talk about any of it. it means, like you said, that we’re talking about a fucking white side character in cast of amazing, nonwhite talent, because some people can’t handle confronting the fact that whiteness insulates them from the realities of racism, and that their ignorance and hostility makes them active participants in white supremacy

(and it’s really hard to explain this to people who’ve been taught that racism is when slurs and white klan hoods, because then they’ll say and do the most vile shit and CRY or fight you when you gently try to explain the racist shit they just did)

and because fandom is very queer as well as very white, we also have to contend with the kinds of white people who think that queerness somehow negates their whiteness. that they can’t express their privilege in contexts involving POC. that we’re making shit up to be victims and to minimize their pain on purpose. and time and time again, i have had my queerness erased by white people, so they feel comfortable ignoring criticism i only ever shared bc i was hoping for something better

i’ve said it again and again and again and AGAIN that it’s ESPECIALLY depressing seeing white people close ranks in ofmd fandom especially BECAUSE it has such a diverse cast and doesn’t shy away from discussing racism in all the ways it manifests. like, most of the racism in the show isn’t even subtle and y’all STILL elected to ignore it? do y’all not feel ANY shame about that?

and some of them don’t! bc they think we’re infiltrators. bc they’re only a few steps removed from “they will not replace us” as they see more POC try to join fannish spaces. and they’ll pretend they’re not trying to push us out bc they’re marginalized in other ways — deliberately ignoring the fact that they’re also crushing their fellow queer, disabled and marginalized community

so you’re tired? yeah. me the fuck too. we deserve so much better

#scarrlet answers

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