#i want to view this critically

[ittybittyremy]

I'm sorry but some of you really overestimate how pro-god Orym is

[nellasbookplanet]

I will never get over the fact that Jester 'are you secretly in love with me' Lavorre went through almost the entirety of c2 thinking she was the type of person no one would ever be romantically interested in because she wasn't enough like/didn’t get the same response to her flirting as her mother. Meanwhile half the party was absolutely head over heels for her! Caleb was already falling for her before Molly's death!! She outright asked them during zone of truth if they were in love with her and Beau said yes (in a way) and Caleb gave her the most tormented look imaginable and wouldn’t even respond because what could he say!!! And Jester not only never found out about any of this, she didn't even think it possible!!!

Jester Lavorre the woman that you are

[ariadne-mouse]

Regarding the initial confrontation between Essek and Astrid, the tone of the situation, and what exactly Astrid's stance is right now, I have a couple of thoughts:

Astrid has presumably not joined Ludinus because she is currently hiding in a smut shop. She also presumably hasn't joined the Exandrian Accord because, again, she is currently hiding in a smut shop & the Accord is sending missions after her. Maybe she disagrees with Ludinus but feels she can't safely outright oppose him. We don't know yet! Provided she isn't rooting for Ludinus, it's very possible she could be enlisted to help (I hope this happens btw), but Astrid is first and foremost a survivor and ambitious achiever who has gotten to where she is now by working within the greater system, not against it, even when she disagrees with it. She remained a Volstrucker until Caleb and the M9 turned the tide against Ikithon, and she later took on the role of Archmage that Caleb refused, continuing her original trajectory ("race you to the top!"). She has a great deal of power now and we don't have much information about what she does with it. I am very curious, though, Astrid please tell us your secrets.

"Bren sends his regards" - we don't know if Caleb told Essek to say this, but whether or not he did, I do think it was meant to convey "this is all with Caleb's knowledge and direction", for whatever measure that means to Astrid, most likely "you are safe for the moment". The purpose of this encounter is to have a conversation instead of a fight. And Essek's intent in saying it does seem to be to disarm Astrid, but his presentation puts some layers and edges on it that are likely independent of whatever Caleb might be feeling on his end (other posts have summarized the juicy possible layers well so I won't cover all of that here).

More high level on Essek's angle: even if "Bren sends his regards" was meant to signal to Astrid that she is safe in this encounter, one of the very first things Essek does is declare Astrid as Trent Ikithon's "successor", which Astrid of course disagrees with ("I'm his usurper!") but nevertheless this is an insult and condemnation coming from Essek. The subtext reads to me like "I don't like you or agree with you and you're on thin fucking ice how I see it". Is she safe from physical harm? It seems so, for now. Is she safe from bitchy comments and thinly veiled judgement? Certainly not.

Notably, Astrid tried to bamf out after hearing "Bren sends his regards", so the mention of him or what that message would mean coming from Caleb is not enough to get her to play ball by itself. This is perfectly reasonable to be honest; shit's all fucked up now and Essek basically cornered her with a squad of unfamiliar adventurers. But her skittishness despite the "friendly" signal implies a great deal of tension in her position, and Essek's behavior shows tension on his part as well, separate from whatever Caleb might be feeling offscreen and the purpose of this little mission for the Accord. I am very eager to hear the conversation that comes next!

[jakeperalta]

every day we inch closer to the inevitable release of taylor's "all the haters are throwing shade at my relationship but I don't care" music about matty and for that reason I live in fear

[lynxalon]

i've seen a fair bit of... pessimism about dorym lately, esp with the ep107, for example wondering if dorian's opposing views on the gods making orym fall out of love, and i have to say. i very highly doubt it, ur fr talking about the man who has held on to will for so long, holding onto will's family and affectionately calling this *his* family too because that didn't stop when will died. i dont think falling out of love is an option or even a thought to orym.

that said, we know that orym has contingencies for if anyone in bells hells crosses the line into being a version of themselves they would despise, for anyone who jeopardizes their mission. his mission. i think, for the first time since knowing dorian, orym finally has a contingency for him. the longer dorian is back, the more orym sees how scarred he is by what's happened (understandable so) and knows that dorian is with bells hells all the way. but if he isn't...

[bread-wizards]

I wonder if Dorian's views towards the gods could best be summed up as something like, "I wish my family didn't have to die for [their] brighter tomorrow."

[edelgarfield]

god damn it all this Aeor and Calamity lore has me liking Ludinus a lot more than I ever wanted to. I find him so fascinating and compelling as a villain, in the way that he reflects a lot of my favorite characters' flaws particularly from CR2, but CR3 in Bell's Hells at times self-defeating pursuit of power in order to win.

I'm thinking abt a couple quotes from Essek, bc he & Ludinus obviously have so much in common. By Essek's own admission, it was his inability to trust people that made his pursuit of knowledge at the cost of others so appealing, that made him lose sight of the hurt he was causing

In particular the second quote: feeling personally responsible for doing something because of your inability to trust anyone else. I think that encompasses Ludinus's ideology & motivation so well.

The idea of longevity/immortality being a barrier to intimacy is something that gets talked about with respect to elves a lot, and I think Ludinus encompasses that to its logical extreme. Ludinus is one of the last survivors who actually lived on Exandria during the Calamity. Most elves actually fucked off to the Feywild and didn't return until long after the fighting was over. Given Ludinus was a child when Aeor fell, I would assume that means his parents chose to stay on Exandria & he was born afterwards. (Which if that's the case, adds another layer to his resistance against the gods bc he was doomed to live through the war on the surface of Exandria bc of a choice his parents made before he was born.)

All the elves born at the tail end of the Calamity are dead by now, Ludinus lived at least 160ish years of it, and most of the elves born around that time would have been in the Feywild and wouldn't have the experience of seeing what happened to the world. Everyone else who survived the Calamity would have died hundreds of years ago, not to mention that only a third of the population even survived it in the first place. The thing that's saved the PCs (& Essek) time and time again is their bonds with others, having other people to support them & remind them that all the power in the world means nothing if you lose yourself in its pursuit, that there are good things in this world worth living for.

Anyone that might have had the chance to sway Ludinus from his path is long dead, either from the Calamity or old age. Liliana seems to be the only person he feels close to, but they're both bonded through their shared cause. Even other elves, the people with the longest memories, don't understand what living through the Calamity was like. They weren't there.

I know it was mostly a joke when Laudna suggested Ludinus go to therapy, but at the same time where would he go? One of the things that helps PTSD is a sense of community, feeling like there are other people who share your experience, but there isn't anyone that shares Ludinus's experience (Not to mention anything resembling a therapist on Exandria would most likely draw power from a deity, which Ludinus is understandably opposed to).

That sense of isolation is something that comes up again & again among CR PCs. CR2 is the most obvious, but it's something plenty of the CR3 characters have been through as well. Ludinus would have been alone in his trauma for hundreds of years. That's completely incomprehensible to us. He would have watched the world move on and forget something that's so deeply affected him. Any attempt to confide in someone about his anger & pain would often be met with "this is punishment for our hubris" "the gods love us" "don't question their will." The very, very few allies he had would die out over the years until one day he's the last and he would be the last for centuries more. I feel like that sense of isolation, feeling removed from the world, bottling up centuries' worth of emotion would make anyone numb. he withdraws further and further into himself bc he doesn't belong. he works for centuries at removing the gods, becoming more and more desperate as he grows older, without anyone else to provide perspective as his plans grow more and more ruthless. (i also have a theory that this loneliness is part of what makes him sympathetic to predathos but that's a separate post)

Given his age & being the last survivor of the Calamity, I think it's nearly impossible for him to connect with other people. The only thing that gives him any sense of connection or community is his crusade against the gods; he only feels connected to others through their shared pain & anger, which never allow him to move past it. He can't trust anyone bc no one else understands what the gods are capable of like he does, nobody else understands what's at stake. He's the only person remaining who does, which means he's the only one who can do what he believes needs to be done.

There's a sense of duty. He needs to eliminate the gods because he doesn't trust the future inhabitants of Exandria to be able to protect their world. He owes it to all those who've been trampled on by the gods to do what they no longer can. I think he genuinely cares about mortals & he wants to defend them from a threat that he believes only he can see, but I think he cares far more about the thousands of dead he carries on his back than anyone alive. He can't simply live a happy life bc everything that once made his life worth living is gone. He can't let go of that pain & anger and move forward. His trauma is what gives him purpose and meaning; healing from it would be a betrayal to all the people that have suffered beneath the gods.

I don't think he's wrong about the gods, but I think he's seeking freedom from the gods' control, not realizing that he's letting himself be controlled by the dead. I think it's been a very long time since he spared a thought towards actually living. Bell's Hells keeps accusing him of wanting to take the place of the gods, or wanting to be seen as a messiah, but I truly don't think that's it. I don't think he cares about what comes after, if he's even thought about it at all. I don't even think he wants to be a martyr. His goal has never been for him to live in a free world, it's to ensure that there will be a world after he's gone, forever. he thinks if he dies without securing that future, he'll have failed Exandria & all the souls that have ever lived on it.

He's been completely ruthless in his pursuit of power because to him, he is fighting for Exandria's survival. That's exactly the trap BH has fallen into in the past, pursuing power even when it hurts themselves & their friends, losing sight of the actual people they claim to be protecting. Ludinus surrounds himself with terrible people; Otohan and Trent to name two, bc he wants the power they hold without getting his hands dirty himself. but in doing so he immediately removes any possibility of emotional intimacy. the people he works with don't trust him & he doesn't trust them. the one exception is Liliana & unfortunately I think she just met him far too late.

so much of CR is about the importance of feeling connected to other people, how those connections remind us of what's truly important, and keep us grounded, how when we begin to lose sight of ourselves, it's those we're close to that remind us. I think of Caleb & Essek, they both had goals they wanted to pursue, but in finding a place to belong realized those goals wouldn't actually make them happy. Ludinus doesn't want to be happy, he wants to have a purpose, and I know I'm a bleeding heart, but I think there is something incredibly tragic in someone who can't even imagine what it would be like to live a happy life.

I think of Fjord & Percy & Imogen & Laudna & Dorian, people who nearly lost themselves in pursuit of power, but chose to turn away because living for their friends was more important that dying for the world. Ludinus is the pendulum swinging in the other direction. It's incredibly tragic bc imo his intentions are genuinely good; he's arrogant and selfish and ruthless but i think he truly does want to protect Exandria.

I think there was a point in the past where someone could have reached him & he could have chosen a different path. i don't even think he would have necessarily had to give up his goal of removing the gods. if he had other people working alongside him instead of under him, who knows what he could've come up with? if he had people to pass the torch onto once he was gone, maybe he would feel like there was time to come up with a solution besides Predathos.

But he doesn't and he can't trust anyone bc no one else believes in his cause as fervently as he does. he can't trust anyone else to make the sacrifices he's willing to make so he never tries. He denies himself the aid & perspective & closeness that comes with trusting someone and becomes further and further entrenched in his mission to remove the gods at any cost. He's the only one alive left to remember the trauma of the Calamity: he has to carry all of it because no one else can.

[blueoctopussss]

Been thinking about what Ashton's FCG-inspired vest might look like, so here is a sketch based on that! I'm not 100% happy with it and I feel like it should maybe have a quote from FCG on it or something, but I'm posting it anyway because not everything has to be perfect.

I did make a long sleeve variant because they need warm clothes for the journey to Aeor, but I don't think it looks as nice.

[danwhobrowses]

Prefacing that, again time zones, I've only been able to glean the latest CR episode and that I do not agree with their in-character opinions on the gods, I'd like to remind fans to try and not get super ugly about their criticism of Ashton Greymoore.

I'll be the first to throw my hands up and say they're among my favourite C3 characters so there may be bias, but I've been getting flashes of the Shard Incident from reactions towards their recent and vocal disdain for the gods. Disagree with them all you want, Taliesin knows that the gods can't simply leave since they're the one who said that the Wildmother would die if she left, but understand that it's a character flaw and if you recall the hardships of their backstory, the unanswered prayers, and that their only exchanges with the gods have required them to do something or, with the Dawnfather Angel, have been met with cold disregard, it's understandable how they got to feeling that way. Ashton has lived alone and been told they don't matter for a lot of their life; no gods, no family, no nurturing presence to guide them, they've been abandoned, used, and - with additional influence by the Dominox accusing them of wanting FCG to die - are currently between blaming themselves and the Changebringer for their closest friend's death.

Make no mistake Ashton is wrong, I think the self-confessed hypocrite with also self-confessed poor morality knows that deep down, or at least knows that they're not the kind of person who should be in charge. Vassalheim is a difficult place for a titan vessel to be in so it is unsure what they will do from here; perhaps investigate the Earth Titan? Commune with the Emperor and Empress? Or maybe be brought to the gods and be able to vent or reconcile with them (and maybe get some closure with FCG, speak with his spirit as like a mediator between the Hells and the Gods)? But it feels like Taliesin is being vocal for a reason, and it's either to invite Matt to challenge it (I've said in other comments but I would love if Ashton found some comfort, not worship or a pact but maybe just a dialogue, in the Everlight: a goddess of healing, temperance and redemption - all of which would help Ashton mentally - as unlikely as it'd be) or find another maybe primordial route to give Ashton a narrative tether towards stopping Predathos.

Let's just, not be cruel about the character, they are more than just their bad trauma and grief-led opinion on gods remember?

[balleater]

also i've been thinking about this since the four sided dive episode but like. yeah of course the volition's views on how to handle this and their priorities are going to be different from that of exandrians fighting the vanguard because it literally Is a different situation completely. at no point from their pov is the situation "these people are trying to crack this shit open like an egg and release something to kill all of our gods"

[aadmelioraa]

When your oldest brother dies on a religious crusade just as you feared he would and your father refuses to deal with his grief just as he refused to deal with it when your mother died (you were a baby btw) and then again when your other brother left home (because your dad was impossible to live with) and in spite of feeling entirely abandoned by your dad you use your newfound higher status to put yourself out on a limb in order to downgrade his punishment and that of your close friend despite grieving their involvement with the queen who led your brother to his death but instead of your father acknowledging your pain and your attempts to do what you believe will bring justice he lashes out at you by comparing your current position to the horrific way your mother died…just Eärien things

[fandom-geek]

me: oh wow, eurogamer's review of veilguard's press demo is out, let's have a read

eurogamer: "veilguard is a streamlined cinematic action game"

me: oh god

eurogamer: "the lines between dragon age and mass effect are blurring"

me: why

eurogamer: "plays more like a single-player action game in combat than a traditional rpg"

me: ....

eurogamer: "the city appears densely populated and buzzing, you can't really interact with people you see there; it's set dressing. But it's beautiful set-dressing nonetheless, and how interactive does it really need to be?"

me: AHHHHHHHHHHHH-

eurogamer: "as a role-playing game it provides a welcome refreshment to the density of Baldur's Gate 3"

who has ever wanted less things in an rpg???? w h o ?????? it's like praising a shooter for having a ton of alternatives to combat!!

[withthewindinherfootsteps]

Wang LingJiao used the chance to scramble out. She took out a cylinder of fire-light from her lapels and shook it a few times. A light shot out of the cylinder. Along with a sharp whistle, it rushed out of the wooden window and exploded in the sky outside. Then, she fumbled out a second one, a third one. Hair tangled, she mumbled, “Come… Come… Come here… Everyone, come here!” Through the pain, Wei WuXian pushed Jiang Cheng, “Stop her from sending any more signals!” Jiang Cheng let go of Wei WuXian and lunged in the direction of Wang LingJiao. Yet, at the same time, Wen ZhuLiu was closing in on Madam Yu. He looked as if he was about to knock her down. Jiang Cheng hurried, “Mom!” He immediately gave up on Wang LingJiao and threw himself over. Wen ZhuLiu didn’t even turn his head as he struck, “Not even close!” Jiang Cheng’s shoulder suffered the attack. Blood immediately burst from his mouth. Wang LingJiao had already let out all of the signal fire-lights. Sharp whistles and bright sparks filled the entire grey-blue sky. - Chapter 58, EXR

It's quite interesting how, in this moment, Jiang Cheng does exactly what he's always criticised Wei Wuxian of doing: endangering the Yunmeng Jiang sect by 'playing the hero'. That's not what either of them are doing, of course – it isn't a motivation for Jiang Cheng here, it's not a motivation for Wei Wuxian anytime else, and the motivations they have definitely make sense – but it's exactly the sort of behaviour Jiang Cheng would criticise Wei Wuxian for, with those exact words.

Yet, no character ever criticises him for this – Wei Wuxian doesn't, even when it was his (necessary) advice that was disregarded; Madam Yu doesn't, even when her sect suffered as a consequence. Even when it very likely played a role in Lotus Pier's downfall (at least in getting a lot of Wen sect cultivators to get there very fast), it's never brought up by any character ever again... whereas Wei Wuxian's action of saving Lan Wangji, Jin Zixuan and Mianmian in the Xuanwu cave constantly is, even when the Wen sect was pretty certainly going to attack Lotus Pier anyway*. That's not to say Jiang Cheng should be blamed for the fall of Lotus Pier, either – that's on the Wen sect, and regardless of both of their actions, the attack was probably going to be a success. And can we blame someone for making a panicked decision protect his mother? – but one's action is definitely more direct than the other, and it's not the one that's constantly blamed.

The aim, though, isn't to compare the actions so much as the attitudes of the people involved, and this is another little detail that shows the imbalance in Wei Wuxian and Jiang Cheng's dynamic. Again, Wei Wuxian doesn't say anything about this afterwards, and doesn't seem to blame him, even when it's his words that were disregarded, and when the Jiang sect and Lotus Pier were undoubtedly very important to him as well. Which is good! That's a good thing and definitely the healthier option for both of them! If the roles were flipped, and Wei Wuxian saved a(n admittedly non-Yu Ziyuan) person, disregarding Jiang Cheng's orders while leading to more danger falling on Lotus Pier? Jiang Cheng would never stop blaming him or bringing it up. Even after the many years that passed between then and Wei Wuxian's resurrection, he still blames Wei Wuxian for the fall of Lotus Pier due to his actions in the Xuanwu cave** – once again, a much less direct scenario.

--

*Very strategic location (trade hub etc), they attacked the Cloud Recesses already, Jiang Cheng's internal narration literally admits this:

In his heart, Jiang Cheng knew clearly that back in the cave of the Xuanwu of Slaughter at Dusk-Creek Mountain, even if Wei WuXian hadn’t saved Lan WangJi, the Wen Sect would have found some reason to come over sooner or later. But he had always felt that, if the whole thing with Wei WuXian didn’t happen, maybe it wouldn’t have been so soon, maybe there would’ve been some way to turn things around - Chapter 59, EXR

Yet there was some time between the end of the Wen indoctrination and the Fall of Lotus Pier, and we never even saw attempts at security adjustments!

**As we see in the Ancestral Hall:

Jiang Cheng mocked, “Look how forgetful you are. What does unwelcome people mean? Then let me remind you. It was because you played the hero and saved Second Young Master Lan, who’s standing beside you right now, that the entire Lotus Pier and my parents went down with you." - Chapter 87, EXR

[uncanny-tranny]

I think when people talk about things like desirability, they can miss the deeper point of why it can be important to analyze why people are seen as undesirable. It isn't just that a type of person is just... not hot... but often, it's the dehumanization of a person based on marginalized features.

For instance, I had a conversation with somebody about disability portrayal in media, and we had agreed that, historically, disability had been portrayed as a horrific ordeal. However, I think they missed the point as to why the "undesirable disabled" character was so appealing to a broader audience. The idea that disability is other, inhuman, and something that depersonalizes somebody from society is partly why those ideas were and are prevalent in mainstream media and culture. It is the idea that "nobody likes you. Nobody needs you. Nobody wants you" because of the person's marginalized body or experience or whatever it may be.

It isn't some superficial "oh why aren't I seen as pretty by everybody?" It is the knowledge that you are portrayed as undesirable in this way because it is a way to separate you from everybody else. It isn't about beauty, nor is it a selfish desire to be wanted by somebody. It is the desire to be seen as a person - an equal, regardless of who desires you or who does not.

[galedekarios]

honestly, while we're on the topic this whole 'gale has beef/rivalry with sorcerers' can be boiled down to (other than completely misunderstanding the "are you versed in magic?" dialogue):

ppl: pick the most obnoxious & arrogant & rude sorcerer options in the dialogue tree gale: claps back eventually ppl: omg you see gale is Totally Jealous of sorcerers & he's so so bitchy abt my incredible power~

and

gale: tells them about how being a chosen of the goddess of magic and an archmage has made him more knowledgable in areas (like cleansing the shadow weave) ppl: Um Akshually i'm just as capable

[pearlaquaoceans]

One thing I've been curious about with Ashton, Imogen, etc, saying they've prayed to the gods, and they never answered... who did they pray to? What did they pray for? This is going to be a huge long ramble that's quite disjointed, and I'm sorry for that. Also I'm going off memory so if I am mistaken in any way or forgetting something, totally my bad and I'll own to it.

If the characters who have said their prayers went unanswered, I wonder if they are randomly just saying words into the universe, just praying to anyone and expecting for a sign from anyone..

I kinda see it like the gods all working in an office, phone ringing constantly, hundreds of emails or the pleas of their followers and a person they don't know randomly just standing at the doorway of the office of all the gods and shouting 'hey you' without any direction or purpose behind it and no followup. Can the gods hear it? Maybe. Probably. But why should they answer it? Do they know it's directed at them? Yes, the gods actively reach out to people who aren't praying. We have seen the wildmother do it with Fjord and Orym now. But both also have deep connections to her domain even before she did so.

If the person praying went to a temple and prayed and asked for something specific etc, I see that as going actually into the office and up to the desk and asking for help. Going to a temple shows actual active choice and active want from a single god of the pantheon. The person praying must look at the deity and think 'this one' for one reason or another no matter how tenuous. But they would show they at least have purpose by going to the temple and in so, know who they are praying to.

Just praying in a moment to the general idea of them.. is so...passive. Again. What are they asking for? Are they asking for anything? Are they asking for a better life? Are they just asking for a sign that the gods see them? Since we have not seen these unanswered prayer moments in game and they have only been mentioned starting mid game as the characters doing it countless times, we do not know what was said in those prayers. And so I wonder.. if someone comes to your desk and just says help, without context. How do you help them? Yes, the gods know things but do they know what is in the heart of people? Do they know what is in their mind? They seem to know more of the people connected to them. Connected to their domains.

What would Fearne ask of in earnest of the gods? What would Imogen ask in earnest of the gods? What would Ashton ask in earnest of the gods? Would Ashton ask without the distaste of authority that is so baked into his being because of his experiences? Not all gods are merciful as the everlight in looking past what could come across as sarcasm and snark.

Then, with signs. Everything I can think of in-game where characters have actively prayed to a single god with a focus for their prayer, it has been, in some form, acknowledged.

It is sometimes just a warm breeze, and sometimes not what they want to hear, and usually, even an absence has a reason to the larger story that is influenced by the choices of the characters. Could they have been sent a sign they didn't recognize because they didn't pray to a single god, so they didn't know to see the sign from a particular god?

Did Imogen always pray to the stormlord? I feel like her path to where he might be has been entirely in game as she has grown so so much. Ashton says he wants to talk to the arch heart only because he interpreted what he saw in Aeor but I don't know he would have prayed to before because I can't imagine what he would have asked for. Did Fearne say she prayed? I can't remember exactly but my brain says she said something along those lines. Am I forgetting where she did so in game to a particular god? If she's saying it happened pre-game... Who would she have prayed to? And especially in the fey realm? Would she even really know the gods there? She didn't really feel consequence until she joined Bells Hells. Would it be in earnest?

Also, the gods are behind the divine gate and cannot work directly outside of someone rolling divine intervention. Often, all they can do is send those small signs. Praying just for a better life isn't something that will be answered because it's not something they can do, at least to my understanding. You get visions and signs 95% of the time.

I know we as the audience knows more than the characters so they could absolutely be expecting more than they have been giving because they don't know what is to be expected. There are so many threads to make up where the characters are and how they act vs how we view them knowing more than they do.

I dunno it's just been bouncing around in my head and then I saw a super interesting and wonderful post talking about how OP wondered if the people saying their prayers hadn't been answered had chosen pre-stream that it would be part of their backstory or if the players decided to add it later on to justify their characters' povs (both totally valid choices) and that post really got my mind turning about what would they pray for? Who would they pray to?

Just my silly little thoughts and how I wonder about how prayers work within Exandria.