#it would be one thing if the narrative acknowledged how abusive rhysand is but the characters like his inner circle didn't

[themoonking]

my mortal enemy that talentless charlatan sarah j maas does this thing that a lot of subpar writers do, where she doesn't write good and bad actions, she writes good and bad people. and it doesn't matter if one "good" character and one "bad" character do the same exact thing, or even if the good character does worse things, if the good character does it its a good action and if the bad character does it its a bad action. doesn't matter what the action actually is.

both the other characters and the narrative itself will condemn the things that the "bad" character does, proving that this is something that society in this world condemns, but those same exact characters, along with the narrative, will praise the "good" character for those exact same things. which is not only hypocritical, but also just shitty writing.

[ofbreathandflame-archive]

Well, again, the issue is not that Rhys has done bad things, it’s how those actions are framed in the story. Let’s think about this – if Rhysand’s actions UTM were framed as negative then perhaps we would not be having this conversation.

Of course, we can argue that Rhysand (1) has developed negative coping mechanisms / perspective (2) Rhysand’s trauma informs the things that he does (both pre, during, and after UTM), and (3) Rhysand’s position was uniquely isolating because of the nature of the role he was forced to play. These are points that I believe can be argued and offer an interesting view; but for any of that to happen, we have to acknowledge that the behaviors are negative. That’s often the problem with the arguments that begin to arise – no one wants to admit that Rhysand has developed (or just has) negative qualities and behaviors. No one wants to contend with the reality of consequences. “Rhysand has always admitted that he would be willing to do terrible things for his family” – and yet there’s no elaboration on those “terrible things.” No one wants to talk about those proposed negative qualities. The story (and the audience) don’t want to admit that Rhys doesn’t really have a solid moral high ground over Tamlin, or admittedly other villains. Just because Rhysand “admits” he’s prone to basically being abusive doesn’t…make it any less abusive.

My proposed argument about Rhysand’s actions UTM are this: he chose to sexually assault Feyre, he chose to “protect” Feyre in ways that were extremely sexually explicit. I believe these are choices that Rhys chooses to make – and I believe they say something about him. It’s noted, to me, that Amarantha scarcely makes Rhys do anything that he does to Feyre. I also believe that his actions regarding Feyre were done with an air of autonomy; as in, I believe Rhysand takes these measures into his own hands. Ultimately, I believe that while Rhysand has to contend with the horrors, he himself becomes beholden to them at some point and ends up perpetrating the same behaviors.

We cannot argue that Rhysand sexually assaulted Feyre, and then argue that it doesn’t say something about him. It does. In the realm of the story – from a writing standpoint – I think a good author can still make a character like that sympathetic and understandable (see: Nahadoth and Itempas from N.K. Jemisin’s Hundred Thousand Kingdom). If I were analyzing Rhysand’s actions, I would simply make the argument that perhaps Rhysand’s abuse of Feyre mirror’s his own abuse by Amarantha hands, and he potentially sees Feyre (and her hope) as something to be threatened – or even shamed by. If Rhysand’s actions were written in a way that clearly exemplified that his actions are not meant to be praised (and are NOT are reflection of love) then he could be salvaged. I actually believe a lot of the abusive things Rhysand does makes sense given the environment and if the story leaned into this from a storytelling perspective and did away with needing to moralize, then this would all be fine. Framing Rhysand’s abuse of Feyre as something to be praised, admired, and loved for is actually quite insane. If we frame his actions as purely preservational and self-serving, that would make so much sense. Imagine being in Rhysand’s position; I guarantee everyone would do whatever they could to stop such extreme amounts of abuse and sexual violence. And even then, the story could still create a narrative that warns of the danger of sexual violence and consent, it would just be subtextual and more allegorical than concretely written in the text. Starting Feyre and Rhysand off in such a tragic place, having Feyre and Rhysand acknowledged truly what happened, having them discuss ways for both of them to move forward while building up the mating bond in the background. Have Feyre acknowledge this untrusting, sly, slick part of Rhysand and have her not assume her mate does everything out of the kindness of his heart. Build their romance out of a place of mutual atonement – play on the theme of guilt Feyre feels and the whole premise of the court. Let the connection between Feyre and Rhys be that they truly acknowledge each others darkness (and also let Feyre do selfish things – maybe she knew damn well Clare Beddor’s family might suffer a bad fate but its not her family and Feyre would do anything for them; Let Feyre kill those fairies with ease because she cares about her life. Let her contend with reality that she would actually do anything for her family and then have that be a connection between Rhys and Feyre.

Something that has always bothered me about the “we don’t talk enough about Rhysand’s trauma” argument that gets thrown around when we earnestly discuss the validity of his actions is the presumption of innocence in that statement. The unwritten statement is that the trauma somehow explains and simultaneously absolves him of the implications of his actions. I objectively agree with the sentiment – Rhysand’s trauma is not talked about enough and it should be. The argument dancing in the corner is the fact that people believe that Rhysand’s extreme amount of trauma absolves him – even going as far as essentially say that Rhysand’s abuse operates out of fear (or because of fear) which is essentially the exact same ideology the book bashed Tamlin for. In the end, the cycle just comes back around and the abuse gets pushed into the backdrop.

[bookishfeylin]

what are your #anti sjm unpopular opinions? this side of the fandom is pretty similar in our opinions so i was wondering where you differ. asking this to a bunch of people btw.

Hi anon!

I have... several unpopular opinions for this side of the fandom, and it's a testament to how much better our side is that I haven't been harassed by anyone over here because of them.

My first and largest is that I love, love, LOVE (book 1) Feylin. Many people here still don't like Feylin, if it's not considered downright taboo. And obviously, on THAT SIDE of the fandom it is THE no-no ship, THE untouchable territory. But I go there anyway :)

My second unpopular opinion that I know differs from quite a few mutuals and followers of mine is that Tamlin did not redeem himself by resurrecting Rhysand, is nowhere near close to redemption by the end of ACOWAR (anyone who's reading ACOHAS probably already knew this was my feeling tho lol), and furthermore I believe that he should not receive a redemption arc in canon. Redemption arcs in fiction aren't about morality and what characters "deserve them", imo, but rather how it works thematically and if it fits the message the story is trying to convey. Rhysand being redeemed/having his assault of Feyre swept under the rug in ACOMAF was bad enough for this series' own themes about abuse and SA, but Tamlin being redeemed completely spits on them. It sucks, because as I've said time and time again Rhysand and Tamlin are the same in how they act and it's incredibly hypocritical to not call out Rhysand for abuse while calling out Tamlin, but Sarah has decided Tamlin is the embodiment of the abuser(TM) just as Feyre is the embodiment of the victim(TM) and Rhysand is the embodiment of the healthy love interest(TM) so Tamlin narratively can never truly gain "redemption" without screwing up the story's themes or questioning those labels, and frankly, allowing him to be redeemed would be incredibly insulting to this series' themes and message about abuse. In my fanfic ACOHAS it only works because I go the route of "everyone sucks" and call out everyone's abuse, Feyre and Rhysand's included, so as to even the playing field and Tamlin's arc ends in a way I THINK is narratively satisfying all things considered. But Sarah will never acknowledge that anyone aside from Tamlin is abusive, so a redemption cannot work for him in canon. So I don't think a Tamlin redemption will ever occur in the books, nor do I truly think it's a good idea from a narrative viewpoint.

I also think that rather than merely complain about a lack of diversity in Sarah's books you should also try to promote alternatives (not that I don't complain myself but people who complain about something and then DO NOTHING to attempt a solution irritate me. The solution is simply to stopping buying Maas books and to promote more authors of color, and what I hate specifically is that I don't see enough critics of Sarah elevating authors of color as much as they complain, not the complaining in and of itself).

And my last unpopular opinion: neither Nesta OR Elain are that interesting. THERE I SAID IT. The complexity they had a little bit of in book one was flatted and removed in ACOMAF. And now BOTH of them are boring. Sorry.

[alectology-archive]

hey, I don't know where to talk about this so I'm venting to you, I know you have talked about this already, but I really don't like the darklina ship or the people who ship it for that matter because they are constantly defending and glorifying Darkling for the things he has done I know they say that they are not harming anybody with shipping characters that are purely fictional, but you know I remember loving Rhysand from ACOTAR when I was 14 or 13 and thinking the things he had done to Feyre were okay and was for her own good because the fandom shipped them so hard adored Rhys so much but I've now realised how wrong I was about it, I just think that even if these ships are purely fictional they shouldn't be glorified or shipped like this because these YA novels targeted at an audience in the age range of 12-18 and teens are very easy influenced by these novels don't you think fandoms behaving like this are harmful to young readers?

I understand where you're coming from and I definitely feel that adults being involved in fandoms meant for kids and not being careful about the way they interact with said media is an issue. I romanticised a bunch of toxic relationships as a young teen since so many ya books have very little self awareness and pass off abusive relationships 'as true love' so I can also relate and it's basically why I really dislike darklina. 

I don't necessarily think that all the people who ship it are not nice - some of them legitimately just want to theorise about a dark!alina au and they acknowledge that the darkling is a messed up guy - which I don't mind in theory. But it definitely is um, quite a Choice considering all the horrible stuff he's done in the books and especially disgusting because alina's a minor. What's really alarming about an overwhelmingly large proportion of darklina shippers is that they believe he's a good guy who just uses violence to achieve his goals which not only removes a lot of nuance from his character but also grossly understates the extent of his distasteful actions in the books: he abuses several women, grooms and manipulates a bunch of people (a lot of them minors...), actively tries to seduce a minor (while impersonating another teen on one occassion), murders innocent civilians etc to name a few. A lot of these things take place off-page and are slightly toned down in their portrayal because it's a series aimed at teens as young as 12 so I think a lot of people are able to conveniently ignore the fact that the darkling actually really, really sucks (I still stand by the fact that the books makes it pretty clear he's horrible - but we know that fandoms are wacky and choose to ignore parts of canon just because it isn't to their taste).

And it's also kind of really clear at this point that a lot of darklina shippers are attracted to a dark and handsome fictional white boy and use alina as a self insert to live out their fantasies? And basically do alina's character a lot of disservice when they discuss her? It's not even that they choose to ignore how alina is overwhelmingly empathetic and especially protective of people who've never had a voice but that they literally couldn’t care less about her and just want her to be the person who 'fixes' the darkling and saves his tortured soul and like. I don't have to explain this lmfao because this trope is literally the worst thing to exist and there's a lot of abuse apologism involved in it (even that aside alina canonically gives the darkling multiple opportunities to stop being a jerk and he refuses to change. even if he had I don’t think I could’ve forgiven him after what he did to genya and baghra). So yeah! It's annoying and tiring that a lot of people want to ship him and a minor together and try to pass it off as him being so deeply in “love” with alina that he would to tear apart the whole world for her or whatever (which is again false because the only reason he sought her out was to manipulate her into working for him - and when that failed he literally enslaved her to his will). It's in especially bad taste when you consider how leigh's spoken about the darklina dynamic being loosely based on her experiences with abuse.

Eh anyway I didn't expect this to get so rambly and I’m not even sure I answered your question right but tldr: you’re right and I wish people in fandoms would be conscious about the kinds of relationships they ship and especially how they frame the narrative around it. It’s also important for them to be aware of the audience that is consuming the media. 

[algumaideia]

Maven, Darkling, Azula and Rhystrash

You know there is a HUGE difference between those characters. I really like Maven he is my favorite character, and although I don’t have any strong feelings about the Darkling I understand why people like him. I really disliked Azula the first time I watched Avatar but now I do like how complex and well written her charcter is. But I really dislike Rhystrash(he is not the character I dislike the most, this honor goes to the guy who was murderer in the hollow, by Agatha Christie).

So, what put Maven, Darkling and Azula apart from Rhystrash? All of them do horrible things and have tragic backstories, so what makes them so different? The way the narrative frames them. M, D and A are villains, of course they do bad things that’s what villains do. Their never put as tragic heroes or something like that. They are villains. But that doesn’t happen with Rhystrash, he is put as the hero, a tragic hero who was forced to do bad things because of the circunstances. But that is bullshit. By all means, he is a villain, he does what a villain does. He is manipulative, abusive, he tortures and kills people. He sexually assaults and mind rapes people. He is a villain, but he is treated as a hero, by the narrative, the main character and the author.

But everyone makes bad things and if they do basically the same thing why you like the others but dislike Rhysand? Because there is a difference between a villain doing horrible things and a hero doing horrible things. A good guy can’t be a good guy if he doesn’t act like a good guy, he can’t be treated as a good guy if he doesn’t act like one. And that’s what happens with Rhystrash. If he was put as at least a anti-hero, it would be an very different thing. But he is supposed to be the best person ever. 

You have all the right in the world to like a villain. Maybe you like him because he is shympathetic. Maybe you like him because he is a complex person. Maybe you like him because he is less unsuferable than the protagonist. Whatever. Like it. But a villain being seen as a hero is problematic and makes me really angry. Because of that I think it is unfair when I see people put Rhystrash, Maven and the Darkling together as they are all the same thing. They aren’t. Maven and the Darkling are villains. Their job is to make horrible and disgusting stuff. But that is not Rhystrash case. He was supposed to be the good guy, and when the good guy is as bad as the villain or maybe worse, and the narrative contine treating him as the good guy we have a problem. 

The fact that Rhystrash isn’t treated according to his actions makes him a very unlikeable character. Not that this can’t happen. For example Azula is a horrible person, but is super compentent. She was able to conquer Ba Sing Se. The difference between that and Rhystrash, is the narrative recognition of how unfair or bad the situation is. 

Basically, there is a difference between a villain that is acknowledged by the narrative and the one that isn’t. There is a difference between liking a villain but recognizing his bad acts and liking a villain/character and ignoring or excusing his bad acts. 

I know this text was quite repetitive and not well written, but I hope you were able to understand.

Best regards,

Me.

Ps. I don’t ship maremaven, because I don’t like Mare and Maven is abusive so I personally don’t fell confortable shipping him with anyone. I’m also not marecal because I don’t care about them.

[emeraldvagabond]

I don't know why people are still fighting over the Tamlin's redemption. I saw a few people saying that he will probably die and a heroic death can be his only form of redemption. I honestly don't think he needs a redemption other than genuinely apologizing to feyre and lucien for his behaviour. I don't want a step by step justification for everything he did. Just apologizing and improving should be enough... Don't you think? PS: Not really relevant but in my head, his mate is a therapist lol :)

I don't see why people think his only redemption can be death when Rhysand's redemption was crying into a bowl of soup about how, actually, all the trauma he caused was even more traumatizing for him.

Not to mention...I don't think dying, heroic or otherwise, is ever redemption. I think it's a shitty and easy write-off. I think people who think that's the only way he can ever redeem himself have very low expectations of sjm already. I think killing Ianthe was also a poor write-off. I think Tamlin realizing how he allowed her to abuse Lucien is a very vital part in own redemption and in repairing their relationship. I think her punishment should have been decided upon by them- ngl, because at every other point the Spring Court and Tamlin are Lucien's safe place, and Tamlin did ruin that by choosing Ianthe's word over his court, and by extension, over his friend. Tbh, i think if his character hadn't been retconned...Tamlin would have sent her away or killed her anyway, and Lucien would have never have suffered just for the sake of the court. But i'm off topic.

Like I was saying, death is never really a redemption arc, it's a way out of writing one. If someone dies a heroic death and gets forgiven...they don't actually have to go through the steps of earning forgiveness. They don't have to feel the guilt, or make their apologies, (and i mean real apologies...not spinning it to make themselves look like the "true victim" rhysand )they don't have to earn that trust back, they don't have to suffer the possibility of not being forgiven., because the truth is no one owes them forgiveness. They never have to look at the ugly parts of themselves, they never have to rebuild, they never have to reconcile.

So yeah, I think anyone dying for redemption is a shitty excuse to not put in the effort to create a redemption arc. Not to mention, Tamlin's already at the guilt part- which is further than Rhysand ever got. When you're truly sorry you don't spin the narrative in your favor, you acknowledge your wrongs, something that we have yet to see Rhysand ever do. And, if Rhysand, Eris, Cassian, Azriel, etc. can be redeemed? Absolutely so can Tamlin, and without dying. A true redemption- because he's truly sorry.

And- I think Feyre needs to accept her part in the fall of both Spring and Summer. Because Feyre doesn't owe Tamlin forgiveness but the flip-side of that is Tamlin doesn't owe Feyre forgiveness either. A redemption arc is going to be very hard when she wronged the entirety of two courts and refuses to admit to it because she's such a girlboss. Now, we already see that Tamlin is guilty and sorry for accidentally hurting her, and for putting the shield around the house...but giving an apology is a lot harder when the other person also hurt you, and the thousands of innocents under you, and continues to tell you and the whole world that it was actually your fault. That's not to say I think he wouldn't, because I think Tamlin gives very freely in the past books without expecting anything in return, but i think it's going to make a redemption very unfulfilling because it will be one-sided.

I also think it will continue to perpetuate this guilt he feels- I think Feyre and Rhysand will keep feeding into this depression he has over the loss of his people because they're fucking gross and that's what they do. I think, without Feyre's recognition of her role, that it'll be a "of so you know everything was your fault all the time," sort of thing they try to push. And I think Tamlin would accept that as truth, I think he already does.

The topic of a redemption is very difficult for some people cause they can't see outside of Feyre's POV, or around Rhysand's mf sick wings.(/j) so their first reaction is "he has to die!!!!1!111!!!!" without considering like....any other fulfilling possibility. It's very hard to look outside of the perspective we're given to recognize that...yes Tamlin did abuse Feyre, but he was also abused. And Feyre was also his abuser at points. Both of these narratives exist and can coexist. But it's hard to see that when we're only given Feyre's POV. To be honest, i don't think him and Feyre will ever truly reconcile the way I believe he and Lucien can and will, because Feyre will always have Rhysand whispering in her ear and telling her how to feel. Unfortunately.

also, i hope whoever his mate is, he gets to be happy in the end because he deserves it. I do like the idea of them being a therapist- or someone who works in an environment that makes them very practiced in emotional regulation and understanding. :P

[maevelin]

what is your opinion on how the IC treated nesta in general, but more specifically acofas?

Oh boy...you just had to go there lol

Negative rant ahead. So you’ve been warned.

Truth is I’ve tried so hard to get what happened in acofas out of my mind  and view certain things I used to like even out of context so to be able to still enjoy them but it didn’t work. If anything getting some emotional distance from this universe dampened my excitement for any future project from this franchise and writer. Granted I never considered SJM to be a good writer but at least she was able to work through some interesting characters and dynamics. Acofas negated that too.

And honestly I am so done with the whole thing and it even left me with a bitter aftertaste when it comes to Nessian in particular because the foundations set in that book (if one can call it that) are really something I detest. The insight we got into Cassian’s mind made me so angry and I noped out completely.

As for how the IC in general treated Nesta?

I had some time to think about that and I think the problem is that the previous books and ACOFAS more so have set up an environment where Feyre and the Inner Circle are the moral axis of the universe we are in. If they are objectively right or wrong does not matter because they are right no matter what. It is very unsettling for me to have to get into a book that exists on that foundation. 

At the beginning the characters in question, Feyre, Rhysand and so on were treading more realistic lines between right and wrong. Some of those lines were blurred. They were morally grey characters too given what the situation demanded from them and that was the allure of their dynamic as characters and as relationships but as we got more books with them they became more and more bland and their perspective was limited to the trope of the perfect shiny hero and they became dogmatic when it came to that. They knew what was the best for everyone. They could do no wrong even when they did. There were no repercussions to their mistakes. They are not to be called out for their behavior because their behavior is always correct (even when it is not and not just concerning Nesta but on many fronts).

We are at a point where their moral code is by default what creates what is right and wrong and the narrative acknowledges that directly and indirectly. So the readers are meant to accept that what Feyre does is morally right and doesn’t get to criticize her actions and the actions of the Inner Circle that many times can be morally ambiguous -at best- but are not acknowledged as such.

I would appreciate it much more if the author allowed the characters (all characters, Nesta included because I am not here to pretend that Nesta is not a hot mess of an abusive asshole too) to be subjected more to objective criticism without the narrative pandering to their moral high ground. 

Thing is that situations where you have to face someone’s trauma can be difficult, messy, ugly even. There is no perfect recipe. It doesn’t mean that your way or helping is always right just because you love your family or your loved one. It doesn’t mean that because you have had your own trauma you know how to deal with someone else’s. You can do more damage many times or you can’t reach someone that is struggling and when someone is in pain many times can’t open up or accept their problem or any help regarding their issues and this can create a very dysfunctional situation from all sides concerned. Toxic even. 

But here from the start the reader is to accept a fundamental truth. Feyre and the Inner Circle are right and they know what they are doing. Their motives, their actions, their responses are pristine and they are on a pedestal so where does that leave Nesta or even a reader that doesn’t accept that reality because their critical thinking gets in the way? 

And where does a character that is not as ‘perfect’ stand? Nowhere. It distorts the picture. Because until that character gets in line with that perfection they can’t be part of it. It gets ostracized even if is in simple things as not being drawn inside a painting.

And what I find even more problematic (especially in the end of ACOFAS) is that this feels very much like a parallel of how Tamlin treated Feyre but most readers ignore that because the former books established that Feyre and the IC are the established moral stance one should admire and anyone opposing that is on the wrong. In reality the moment the writer stopped viewing certain characters under an amoral light and forced them to be the ‘good heroes’ instead of the amoral characters that should have been everything became distorted. The parallels between those characters that are deemed to be doing things wrong and those that are supposedly doing things right are blatantly obvious and the only reason as to why the good guys have the holier than thou attitude and are on the right its because the writer “says so” and that’s not something I can abide with if I use critical thinking. 

Yes these books are not meant to be taken seriously and are light entertainment at best but I feel there are limits to that especially since given the direction the author choose to take the characters towards does not personally entertain me anymore.

I am not in favor of taking an unapologetic character and making them less than what they are only to fit them into a romance and way to work into a faux morality code.

Feyre wants to protect Nesta. She is for an intervention. Tamlin acted the same. In the same way Feyre gets to decide how Elain should give Lucien a chance or how Lucien’s attachment with Jurian and Vassa is silly or how Nesta should heal Tamlin also decided how Feyre should work through her trauma, how she should not use her powers, how she should exist in his court because...he knew better, because he loved her, because he wanted to protect her. And he did love her and he did want to protect her and he had his reasons and all that didn’t make him any less abusive. Tamlin was basically ordering or manipulating Feyre into acting in the way he believed was best for her and their life together. Does that sound familiar or what? Including how Tamlin was providing everything financially for Feyre and her sisters too and that was also taken as a given. 

And I am not here to say that Feyre doesn’t love her sisters or doesn’t want the best for them. I am here to point out the hypocrisy when it comes to how one should defend another person’s free will and choice. The only reason Feyre was able to escape that suffocating environment was because Rhysand gave her a way out. No one is there to do that for Nesta. If anyone did that for her would she stay? Of course not.  Would she follow Cassian to the camp if she had other alternatives? Nope. Surely Nesta is at the lowest of lows and her behavior triggered such reactions because she surely did something bad for even Amren to be set against her that way in the end of ACOFAS but that doesn’t change how the power imbalance is shocking. How Elain had no say to what happens to Nesta because Feyre is in charge. But once more where Tamlin was wrong Feyre is right. Where Tamlin was abusive Feyre is not. Feyre’s trauma was not as destructive as Nesta’s so of course this excuses everything. Not to mention that Tamlin was going through his own trauma too. Not to mention that every despicable thing Tamlin did as a High Lord was no less despicable than what Rhysand did but we saw how the narrative in the end treated Tamlin even after the way he repented in ACOWAR. 

But Tamlin is the bad guy who treated Feyre badly so even if objectively he can be as terrible as the characters we are meant to support are and can be we are still not meant to judge him the same as we are meant to judge the ‘heroes’ because different standards are set. The same treatment goes for Nesta, Lucien and so on. And I am not here to defend Tamlin or every wrong thing Nesta or any other character did. But the scales here are not balanced at all so I feel that for certain characters their mistakes weigh more than those of others. It also depends if someone’s trauma is more ‘comfortably accepted’ than others. It is like you can be depressed and damaged and traumatized but only as long as it fits a certain aesthetic kind of thing and that is triggering me in ways I am not comfortable with.

And you can see the insidious writing too. Nesta’s PTSD is used against her. 

Characters like Feyre are getting praised for overcoming their trauma and for their heroism and get all those monikers of glory but Nesta for example and even Elain that beheaded the King and ended the war are left into obscurity. Nesta was ready to sacrifice herself to give Feyre a fighting chance and was there to shield Cassian and die along his side but you know okay sure. Feyre is the defender of the rainbow and I don’t know what else title she has these days but when other characters do similar fits of heroism they are sidelined and those acts are quickly forgotten as if they never happened. That is a narrative issue because it chooses to highlight certain moments and ignore others.

People know Nesta as ‘Cassian’s’ for crying out loud and escape her house in fear because of him. Cassian that somehow glorifies the mate bond and the age gap even to legitimate worries Rhysand poses because if he didn’t then all of the sudden he would have to acknowledge how problematic is his attitude towards Nesta and their general dynamic. But hey she looks hot despite her weight loss and what Rhysand and Feyre have, suicide pacts and whatnot, is so pure so why bother with being decent towards a girl that as he sees is traumatized, has been violated and is stuck in a world and species she does not want. He admitted that he had been through the same emotional trauma in his past and it took him time to heal but hey Nesta is a bitch for not conforming to the way he and the IC believe is best for her to act, behave and heal.

Is Nesta right all the time? Hell no. She is an abusive asshole. She spends money she has not worked for and earned. She is all messed up and does not know which way is up and lashes out towards every direction.

But in the same way Feyre did the same with Tamlin’s fortune and Rhysand’s but at least she was grateful and in a relationship with them so I guess it was okay?

And keep in mind that what Nesta is doing is deplorable (taking Rhysand’s money, having a past of not treating Feyre right, not wanting to be with Cassian etc) but when Elain is basically doing the same but Elain is ...Elain. So it is okay. She is not as troublesome I guess and can hide silently in the sidelines so the same mistakes have different gravity and consequences.  Again that’s how the narrative is set. It favors certain characters while condemns others because by default it accepts in its core how Feyre and the Inner Circle is the moral axis so the other characters are satellites around that orbit and if they diverge from that then they get crashed until they are taught to gravitate correctly.

I could keep going but I feel like this game is rigged from the start when it comes to Nesta and I am finding it pointless really. The fact that the narrative pushes her trauma in a certain direction so not only to develop Nesta as a character but also pander to certain characters and a certain mentality regarding certain characters. I don’t feel comfortable reading something like that.

If the concern of the author was to push Nesta into an environment where the primary concern would be Cassian, their romance and the acknowledgment of the Inner Circle I am sure there are many more ways to work with that than taking a character’s PTSD and manipulating in a way as to make it less important for their individual narrative and more or less a stepping stool for getting the character to a place that wouldn’t otherwise go and especially more so if they were in their right frame of mind. 

And I am not going to even get to other issues like how I am sure how tone deaf the author is still going to be when it comes to PoC cultures (Illyrians) vs White Savior Trope (Nesta entering that culture as a Queen without a crown that will go through the blood rite and into a warring misogynistic tribe where she will give the solution in the end but you know...’yay feminism’...and then adding salt into injury you will have Rhysand, Azriel and Cassian that have been in charge for half a millennia and could have solved certain issues if they truly wanted given their position and power but now that someone else will do it for them they will still get the credit...but you know...dreamers change the world and all that...but only when it is convenient I guess...).

[ellanainthetardis]

A Court of Thorns and Roses by Sarah J. Maas My rating: 3 of 5 stars Soooooo, this wasn't exactly the deep love I expected to feel. Maybe a part of it is on me. I loved the throne of glass series so much and I was told this was better so my expectations were very high. Keeping in mind I actually hated the first book in throne of glass and I didn't hate this one though, I'm thinking it can only get better. Also, I knew from the impossibility of staying unspoiled that the ship in this one isn't endgame so I didn't let myself get invested and that obviously must have colored my reading. However, there are flaws in there that aren't due to my expectations. The first three quarters of the book are sooo boring... Nothing happens but frolicking in the woods and painting. I enjoy a good frolicking and painting session as everybody but this was a bit much. There were also some inconsistencies in some scenes that took me out of my reading a couple of times because I had to reread the paragraph or the page to track a hand or something like that (and it didn't make much sense afterwards so that's not on me but on the writing). And last but not least although I'm willing to take part responsibility for that one, I didn't really care much for the characters. They felt a bit... bland. I'm still not really invested after finishing the book but I will say the last hundred pages made me care for Feyre more and I think the next book and the way she will deal with what happened to her is going to be interesting. SJM write trauma well in my opinion so I'm looking forward to that. I also liked Nesta a lot, she was the only character who, from the start, seemed to have hidden layers and we all know that it's my sin. Tamlin is nice enough for now but a bit bland and also how can we trust he actually loves her when it was never a prerequisite of the curse? I don't know... I don't know if it's because I know the real endgame but I'm not getting the greatest vibe from him. Lucien... I guess we're supposed to loooove him but I just didn't care much for him either unfortunately. He has potential though. And as for Rhysand... Obviously he has also hidden depths and agenda and I did like him a little HOWEVER and that's one important part that bothered me a lot: (view spoiler)[ I understand that he did what he did under that mountain "for the greater good" but I'm not okay with the way it was handled. The situation where he put Feyre in see-through dresses and kept having her drugged in public, giving her lap dances and what not? Noooot cool. And it's not acknowledged enough in my opinion. At one point, it's almost like she should thank him for not taking it further sexually and that was soooo cringey. I mean, in context, yeah, maybe he could have if he was less of a good guy because Fae and what not but as a piece of fiction where the narrative seems to not only justify but make apologies for it... Mmmm. CRINGEY. Feyre was still pretty much naked with a bunch of people while drugged and had no memories of what happened to her during that time. I'm sorry but it doesn't matter where exactly he put his hands it's not good. And it still has sexual abuse overtones. And it wasn't handled well because the narrative makes apologies for it instead of acknowledging it for the bad thing it is. The fact that Rhysand has apparently also being raped for decades at this point is also glossed over? Acknowledged but not dealt with? I don't know if it will come back or not... But yeah. That part... I thought it could have been handled better. (hide spoiler)] Basically: I didn't hate the book but I felt like I read a veeeeery long introduction and the real book started at page 300 leaving me frustrated when it ended at page 417 so, yeah, I'm going to read the next one right away and hope for the best because it's a big one. (also it has nothing to do with the story itself so I obviously didn't take that into account for the rating but I want to say it somewhere (and maybe it did impact my reading too): I have the latest paperback bloomsberry edition (the ones with the new covers) and I would really NOT recommend. For one thing they don't survive well during reading (and I'm not someone who destroys my books while reading them), the first one ended up with the spine cracked, pages weren't probably cut so they were stuck together and tore a little at some places when I carefully separated them... The inner cover is a bright neon yellow that will blind you every time you're at the beginning or at the the end of the book and it's distracting af. And the font is rather small, which made it hard to read late at night. I know it's not like... important in the grand scheme of things but if you're looking to purchase, I would advise going for the oldest editions. Now I understand why the boxset was so cheap. I think I might read on tablet for the next one). View all my reviews

[battlestar-royco]

What makes you think that Lucien is better than Rhysand.

Oof, is it a copout to say literally every aspect of their characters? Lmao. In all seriousness, this is gonna get real long real fast. I guess the obvious thing to say first would be that L/ucien passes the basic lowest standard of being a decent person just by virtue of never having drugged someone or broken and tattooed their arm for paper thin motivations. Other than that, there are so many reasons why I like L/ucien better as a person and literary character and I think he’s better written than Rice, but I can group them into three main categories.

First, I find L/ucien to be an actually compelling and flawed character. He’s got baggage about Jesminda and Andras, both of whom close friends who died in ways he couldn’t control. I think there’s also room for him to be interpreted as MLM with the ambiguity of his and Andras’s relationship and he was bridal carried by Assriel okay. He has a personal fear and investment in A/marantha’s curse and her fate because of what she did to his eye. He can’t really escape his fraught relationship with Tom Lane because if he returned to his family he would be disrespected and essentially neutralized as a political entity. His residence in the Spring Court is always strained because of his conflicting loyalty toward and fear of Tom. (And this is a huge part of why L/ucien is borderline objectively better as a character. Internal conflict. Interesting backstory that has implications for the current story. Two attributes that almost all AC0TAR characters except L/ucien and N/esta lack.)

Plus, as a person, he’s simply a more likable guy than Rice. Faerug and L/ucien had their rough moments in the first act of AC0TAR, but once they got past that, he was actually a good friend. They bantered. He provided her life advice and warned her about the dangers of the fae world. He tracked her all the way into Night territory trying to save her from Rice, who, to the best of L/ucien’s knowledge because of idiotic Night Court antics, was an evil monster who kidnapped her to mentally and physically control her. L/ucien is not an obnoxious ~fae male~ who beats up other men and tries to force his mating bond onto his mate. Rice on the other hand has no inner conflict–he’s either completely morally reprehensible as in the first book, or he’s completely justified in his actions and absolutely sure of all his decisions for the greater good of Faerug. Rice tortures, ridicules, estranges, robs, and bosses people around all the time due to a false sense of entitlement and he is called a good person for it. He treats his political allies like shit, allows wing clipping and wealth disparity, and has no idea how to stick to a budget. He’s just an evil idiot who gets away with everything because SJ/M thinks he’s hot. That’s a thousand times more boring than literally any single aspect of L/ucien’s character.

Second, SJ/M’s narrative preference of Rice over L/ucien is nonsensical. In AC0MAF, after several hundred pages of not giving L/ucien a second thought, Faerug mentally condemns him for not fighting for Faerug in the beginning of AC0MAF. I have to laugh at the entitlement and slander. Um SJ/M? Are we ignoring the fact that L/ucien was literally also an abuse victim for decades if not centuries and is not at fault for the way their abuser treated either of them? She should be holding neither character to this standard, and yet L/ucien is victim-blamed here. Faerug clearly feels that she deserves his undying loyalty despite only having known him for a year tops, killing his friend in cold blood, and abandoning him to Tom’s antics for months. How about how he trekked across P/rythian on foot for Faerug while she was having boring banter with a bunch of annoying fuckboys? How about how he tried to save her during the trials with absolutely zero ulterior motive and offered his help FOR FREE while Rice’s price was absurdly high and unnecessary? He’s a much better friend to her than Faerug ever is to him, despite being forced to say the exact opposite to Faerug in AC0WAR. Meanwhile, every truly evil thing Rice has ever done is retconned into either a pity party or a part of his master political plan. Like?? I think drugging someone repeatedly, forcing them into an unfair deal, exposing “friends” to their abusers, generally being a douche in the political arena, and robbing precious heirlooms from allies makes someone a demonstrably terrible person, but SJ/M seems to think that makes him… a feminist?! Sure Jan.

Third, Faerug constantly treats L/ucien like human garbage and gets away with it. In AC0WAR, not only does she not acknowledge Tom’s abuse of L/ucien, but she purposely contributes to that abuse by manipulating both Tom and L/ucien. She takes advantage of L/ucien’s trust, friendship, and shared history by first publicly invading his personal space, then privately doing so, then hugging him in lingerie just to make Tom mad. What the fuck. That is sexual harassment. That is completely abhorrent behavior and yet never fucking once does she question the evil in it. She just sees her end goal of taking down Spring, despite the selfish stupidity of said goal due to a whole ass war coming to P/rythian and the destruction of the only relatively safe space her supposed “friend” can live. Furthermore, the fact that I/anthe raped L/ucien is a passing thought in her mind when it first comes up, then it’s never discussed again until I/anthe literally chains him in the forest with the heavily implied intention of raping him again and Faerug CONSIDERS ABANDONING HIM. Oh, and of course we can’t forget how Faerug violated L/ucien’s mind, a crime previously established to be one of the most abusive and corrupt in the AC0TAR universe, to answer the burning question of whether or not his small talk with E/lain was leading somewhere sexual. What the actual fuck?! How the fuck is this the same character who unironically believes she’s the better friend in this scenario?!?! L/ucien goes through so much more than he deserves, gives so much of himself to assholes who don’t deserve him, and he is never acknowledged for it. That’s why I think L/ucien is better than Rice Sand times infinity.

[astrababyy]

How is Nesta considered an abuser by part of the ACOTAR fandom for how she treated F//eyre in the cabin, but R//hysand isn't considered an abuser for what he did to her UTM by the same group of people?

Honestly, it can’t all be blamed on them. A lot of it is issues with the narrative — like, a lot of it — makes it far easier to like Rhysand than Nesta, considering how Feyre’s perspective shapes the two. Canon refuses to allow Nesta’s trauma to be show in all the real facets of it. All the good, the bad, and the things people would tend to sympathize with.

I think part of it is also that Rhysand had reasons for why he acted that way that could be considered valid (as long as those reasons are barely glanced at because they fall apart the moment you look closer). It’s also that Feyre’s POV is much more sympathetic towards Rhysand than it is towards Nesta. And we see much more vulnerable moments for Rhysand, making him easier to humanize ig.

Part of it could also be the equivalent of why many fans like Eris — he’s in interesting character. And y’know, he is ig. As one of the only consistent characters in the series, he is pretty interesting if it’s from literally any POV but Feyre’s.

It’s also pretty difficult to apply morals to these characters because 1) to quote @/worldsnotsaid, the bar is literally in hell, 2) because most of them suck anyway and 3) the circumstances of these situations tend to make these decisions contradicting morals a bit easier to sympathize with.

Again, to reiterate, it’s mainly biases in the narrative, even in Nesta’s own POV at times. Of course, at a certain point, it gets a lot more obvious than before, but those are the main reasons I think a lot of stans like Rhysand over Nesta. Not to mention, there’s also the ones who know all this stuff and choose to like him anyway. There’s nothing really wrong with that. The fact that they acknowledge the things he’s done is enough for me.

[quoteablebooks]

Genre: Fantasy, Romance, Young Adult, Fiction, 

Rating: 3 out of 5 stars

Synopsis:

Looming war threatens all Feyre holds dear in the third volume of the #1 New York Times bestselling A Court of Thorns and Roses series. Feyre has returned to the Spring Court, determined to gather information on Tamlin's manoeuvrings and the invading king threatening to bring Prythian to its knees. But to do so she must play a deadly game of deceit – and one slip may spell doom not only for Feyre, but for her world as well. As war bears down upon them all, Feyre must decide who to trust amongst the dazzling and lethal High Lords – and hunt for allies in unexpected places. In this thrilling third book in the #1 New York Times bestselling series from Sarah J. Maas, the earth will be painted red as mighty armies grapple for power over the one thing that could destroy them all.

*Opinions*

**Spoilers**

A Court of Wings and Ruin is the end of the trilogy if you don’t count the add on novel that I am assuming is a bridge to the next series, and finally, war breaks over Prythian. The novel starts not too long after the events of A Court of Mist and Fury, with Feyre back in the Spring Court after the disastrous showdown with King Hybren. Feyre must navigate her way in a Court that is no longer her home and find a way to get back to the Night Court, her sisters, and her found family before Hybren starts his assault on Prythian. I have to say that the pacing in this novel was much better than in Mist and Fury with a number of moving pieces keeping the reader engaged. Yet, I found the ending slightly disappointing in terms of emotional payoff. Don’t get me wrong, I like a happy ending, but there was very little sacrifice to get that ending so it didn’t feel that it was earned. Now I have praised Maas before for letting Feyre make mistakes and have emotions as any individual would have. However, as the series progressed, I felt we saw less and less of this. It might have been deliberate, showing that this experience was maturing Feyre, but it got to the point where she does nothing wrong, and even when she does, it’s instantly forgiven because she is High Lady. Also, I know that this is a romance, but when 85% of Feyre’s thoughts are about Rhysand it was as if she wasn’t her own person anymore. There are no consequences to her actions that don’t somehow end up exactly how she wanted them to be, which became a little annoying. I didn’t have any fear of Feyre surviving or being hurt because things always worked out for her. Even with the Spring Court, the one time that Feyre’s choices came back to have some sort of negative effect, at the end of the day it doesn’t matter. Tamlin is still in love with her and ends up helping her against Hybren and Lucien, who is probably the worst treated by Feyre, goes with her to the Night Court due to Elian being his mate. I guess everything was just so neatly tied up that it didn’t seem realistic to me. Acts should have consequences more than “this could have gone so wrong but it didn’t, yay.” That being said, Tamlin is the definition of a messy bitch in this novel. While there is no condoning his treatment of Feyre, or Lucien, at the end of the day he is not a pure villain. Also, in defense of Lucien, I know a lot of people could point out that he let Tamlin treat Feyre badly and didn’t do enough to help her. I want to remind everyone that this is a man who was abused by his family and his best friend has control and rage issues which he doesn’t have powerful magic to counteract. Living like that for centuries will make anyone a little hesitant to step in when tempers are brewing. I understand Feyre’s anger, both for them aligning with Hybren to get her back like a possession and Lucien not helping her when she needed him the most, but Lucien very early on also acknowledges these mistakes. As Feyre manipulates him, I understand her reasoning, but I feel for Lucien as well. Maas pulls on those feelings from A Court of Thorns and Roses to make the reader both want Feyre to succeed in her machinations, but also find it a bit cruel what she is doing to Lucien. I would have liked for Lucien to decide to come with Feyre because of what Tamlin did and not just to see his mate, but I guess Feyre wouldn’t have believed him without the mating bond. After the time in the Spring Court, it’s as if Maas doesn’t know what to do with Lucien so she just sends him off on a quest and he’s gone for hundreds of pages. The addition of Faebane to the world was needed because, quite frankly, the fact that Feyre has the powers of every High Lord and wields them with efficiency was a bit hard for me to swallow. I know that we saw her train for months to master them, but she seemed to have no weakness, so while a lot can happen in a war, I didn’t really have any fear she would be harmed in one to one combat. The introduction of the faebane took away those powers and forced Feyre to think on her feet, use her physical abilities, and sometimes make deals to get out of sticky situations. While it was negated for the war itself, Feyre didn’t fight at all and Hybren had equally powerful magic so that didn’t bother me. However, all that training for Feyre to not enter a single battle during the actual war was a little ridiculous. All this power and she stood by and watched because she wasn’t trained to fight with the legion? I got the reasoning but why give her these amazing powers and have her not once use them in the final battle? Now, my biggest grievance with this novel is that Elian, and to some extent Nesta, are just walking plot devices. Elian is literally only mentioned in the narrative to push some other action forward, sending Lucien to look for Vessa, to warn them about the Ravens, and to force Azriel and Feyre to go and rescue her from Hybren so he goes after the humans. I learned nothing about her in this novel and honestly didn’t care about her in the slightest even though I enjoyed her character in the first two novels. When she faced her human betrothed I couldn’t have cared less because she wasn’t on the page enough for me to care and even that was just to show that Jurian was working against Hybren. While Nesta had more page time due to her connection to the Cauldron and therefore we had more emotional connection to her, she still didn’t seem like a character in this novel. I know that she is getting her own set of novels and I hope that they do her justice because I think she is one of the more interesting characters in the series when they actually let her be more than an ice-cold. Maas wanted to show that both sisters are traumatized by being turned, I get that, but you need to make us care about this trauma instead of just making both women useful for their skills and not talking aside from that. It was because of this disconnect that the real emotional moment for the sisters at the end of the novel really didn’t hit for me. My next grievance is that while they are in a war and a lot of people die, it isn’t any of the characters that the reader cares about. Sure, it is sad when the Cauldron blasts countless Illyrians out of the sky, but it wasn’t Cassian, thanks to Nesta, or Azriel. I am not saying that I wanted one of the inner circle to die, but literally all of the named characters make it through the war without any lasting physical effects. I guess that isn’t the truth, the Suriel, The Carver, and The Weaver do not survive, but again we really didn’t have an emotional connection to any of them save maybe the Suriel. Especially when Feyre realizes that The Carver came into the battle knowing he was going to die. Also, Feyre doesn’t lose anything in the battle other than her father, who she had been distant from for years. While his death was sad, Feyre really never planned to see him again so why should the reader be upset? Feyre doesn’t go mad looking into the mirror for The Carver and while I am all about learning to love the good and the bad in yourself, doing it in the span of hours is a little rushed. Feyre does not have to give up any of her powers to put the Cauldron back together, Rhysand doesn’t have any ill effects from dying to but the Cauldron back together, all the High Lords survive the war along with the named allies and mates. Even Amren’s big sacrifice was nulled as she came back as a High Fae. Again, I am a huge proponent of happy endings and maybe the emotional turmoil is shown in A Court of Frost and Starlight, but I still don’t really feel as if the happy ending was earned. I also don’t think that this series is Young Adult after A Court of Thorns and Roses, but New Adult. I have nothing against sex scenes in YA books because teenagers have sex, but the amount of sex in the last two books and how detailed the sex scenes were didn’t read like a Young Adult book. Feyre was nineteen at the beginning of all this (in hopes that we wouldn’t have an issue with a centuries-old Fae wanting to sleep with her, but that’s a different issue) and has had to take care of her family so one could say she is mature. That’s why the sex scene with Tamlin in the first novel didn’t bother me at all (though there are things to say about the Under the Mountain, again not now) because while it was detailed, it was a culmination of a novel's worth of relationship building. However, in A Court of Mist and Fury and A Court of Wings and Fury, the sex scenes are more prevalent and at points, all Feyre and Rhysand think about, like the library scene. I, personally, didn’t mind all that sexuality in this novel, but I don’t think having multiple sex scenes is the only way the novel could have been empowering for young girls and their sexuality. I don’t need to know that Feyre’s legs are still up on Rhysand’s shoulders to understand the deep and intimate bond they share, just saying. Again, in an adult novel, give me all those details, not needed in YA. Overall, I enjoyed the series, but I see why people have pointed out the problems with how romantic relationships have been portrayed. I am not sure if I will seek out A Court of Frost and Starlight or Nesta’s novels, which are apparently an adult series. Maas didn’t exceptional world-building so that Prythian was a living, breathing world. However, I don’t feel as if the emotional hits really worked in this final novel and the happy ending was just a little too perfect for my taste. Maybe I’m just a cynic at heart after all.

[bookishfeylin]

hi! hope you’re having a good day! if you don’t mind, i’d love to pick your brain — do you think tamlin, if written by a proper author, could have a legitimate redemption arc? do you think the things he’s done in the past, especially to feyre, can be forgiven or healed enough to justify a reunion between feyre and tamlin? I only ask this because I really love tamlin as a character, however I don’t want that affection for him to cloud my judgement of him. if he’s messed up on a level a certain other high lord has, i want to at least acknowledge that so i’m not insensitive to people who are triggered by him.

Hi anon! I explained my thoughts on Tamlin getting redeemed here, but the tldr is that at this point, I don't think he canonically should get a redemption arc, and that'd be true if he were written by any author. Now fanon is a different story i mean my first fanfic and the actual bane of my existence currently as I struggle to write its next chapter is ACOHAS, a Tamlin atonement (i hesitate to use redemption) fic among other things, because I have a THING for him groveling at Feyre's feet which... may or may not be a spoiler muahaha

But I'll actually just copy and paste some of what I said there, because I believe I articulated it best then:

Redemption arcs in fiction aren’t about morality and what characters “deserve them”, imo, but rather how it works thematically and if it fits the message the story is trying to convey. Rhysand being redeemed/having his assault of Feyre swept under the rug in ACOMAF was bad enough for this series’ own themes about abuse and SA, but Tamlin being redeemed completely spits on them. It sucks, because as I’ve said time and time again Rhysand and Tamlin are the same in how they act and it’s incredibly hypocritical to not call out Rhysand for abuse while calling out Tamlin, but Sarah has decided Tamlin is the embodiment of the abuser™ just as Feyre is the embodiment of the victim™ and Rhysand is the embodiment of the healthy love interest™ so Tamlin narratively can never truly gain “redemption” without screwing up the story’s themes or questioning those labels, and frankly, allowing him to be redeemed would be incredibly insulting to this series’ themes and message about abuse. In my fanfic ACOHAS Tamlin's redemption/atonement only works because I go the route of “everyone sucks” and call out everyone’s abuse, Feyre and Rhysand’s included, so as to even the playing field and Tamlin’s arc ends in a way I THINK is narratively satisfying all things considered. But Sarah will never acknowledge that anyone aside from Tamlin is abusive, so a redemption cannot work for him in canon. So I don’t think a Tamlin redemption will ever occur in the books, nor do I truly think it’s a good idea from a narrative viewpoint.

Now you could argue that another author might just go that "everyone is abusive and everyone sucks because this is *gasp* a FANTASY WORLD so no one should be unduly critiqued for it or EVERYONE should be called out for it" route, but it's admittedly way less powerful than what Sarah was trying to do in ACOMAF, so... it doesn't work if the author is trying to stick to Sarah's (intended but not fully delivered) message of "battered woman becomes empowered." So. Yeah.

This is why we just stick to book 1 here because the rest of this series is a MESS