#jonerys fans most of all

[is-the-owl-video-cute]

I thought I hated things getting popular because I was just sort of bitter but I realize now I hate it because "popular" these days just means "the GoT crowd grabbed it" and they're insufferable

You’re not wrong.

[lucy-ghoul]

why are you, as an adult in 2024, still hung up on reylo. why are you still mocking the shippers. why do you believe yourself to be superior only because you dislike a stupid ship from a fucking space fairytale. girl (gnc) get a grip

[horizon-verizon]

One thing I have noticed is how Jon’s stans want him to have this really powerful bond with Daenerys’ dragons but I have NEVER seen them talk that way about Daenerys and Ghost. You’ll see Stark fans theorize or make fanfiction/fanart of the Starks having her dragons or being part of the Three Heads or taking Daenerys’s prophecies but you’ll never see anyone claim Daenerys will warg Ghost or another direwolf. I couldn’t care less about the direwolves but I found that quite interesting.

Jonerys is all about co-opting Daenerys’ Targaryen identity for Jon. Or make it seems like they are both leaders, when in reality what Daenerys is doing in Essos, in Meereen, just stomps on EVERYTHING Jon does (did since he’s dead, murdered by his own men, lmao). It’s just just about giving Jon access to Daenerys’ dragons and groundbreaking accomplishments & storyline. Ship trash as hell, by shipping them (or pretending to because they are quick to throw Daenerys under the bus, they just want to use her as a self insert), Jon’s stans can elevate him through Daenerys.

From what I have also seen of the most of the Jon stanning Jonerys shippers so far, I must agree. Part of it is that in real life, men also can't be much of anything professionally nor domestically without leaching off of their female partners and family members, so of course we have people do the same with fictional characters. Apparently in the U.S. men are more likely to get promotions and shit when they have children or get married or even just move in with a woman whereas it's the reverse for women. Still, bc it's tacitly expected the woman would be the one performing much domestic labor and birthing children that "depend" on the man's income. You'd think BOTH would get the promo for the household to get even more $, but nah...bc women are the main consumers but also the expected ones to consistently consume products for their households, children, etc.

Aside from Nymeria and Ghost--the dogs themselves, but in the case of Nym, the relationship w/Arya, I am in anticipation of seeing again in the books--the direwolves of ASoIaF don't really intrigue me all that much. And it could be bc we haven't gone anywhere away from Bran using Summer to warg AND I don't see how they'd be involved with the coming war to this day.

[daenystheedreamer]

i love looking at ao3 statistics did you know if you exclude got and hotd from your search the top ships will include both rhaegar/lyanna and rhaegar/elia but not rhaegar/joncon even though out of those three people joncon is the only person confirmed to have even liked rhaegar in the first place. also the top tag for stavos is modern au... all stannis fans want is to see him in his rightful place (shitty corporate job at the executive level)

I LOVE AO3 STATS omg i went down a rabbit hole for yearly changes in the ASOIAF tag and its so fun (<- nerd)!! you can see how game of thrones totally changed the landscape, then how hotd just annihilates it. i didnt filter out the show tags for this reason. before the show released, somehow arianne x jon snow was the THIRD!! most popular pairing. and stavos is there too but is ANNIHILATED once the show airs. braime is consitently on top but gets beat by jonsa and jonerys a couple times, and then Its So Back, and now its so joever because of hotd however if you take out the hotd tags its #1 🫶

intellectually annotated pics below, super interesting if youre an insufferable nerd. i filtered for 2011-01-01 until 2012-01-01 and so on, and didnt filter show tags.

[libradoodle1]

Surprise, my lovely Jonerys Fandom!!! Here's my photo with Kit and Emilia. When you see this, you may be asking, "Why is Libra holding that sign?" And the simple answer is, "Because this was for us, the Jonerys fans."

Fandom can be a wonderful place, but also very lonely. Oftentimes, ppl in our real lives don't share our passion so we obsess about these characters alone. That was me until one day, I made a few friends through reading, then writing, then in private and public forums. This simple hobby has gained me real, true friendships with some of the most amazing, kind, funny, sweet people that I'll never have the pleasure to meet (cause y'all are scattered across the world from me). Some I met by fangirling over their work, others, when they shared sweet comments on mine. But the most friends I've made have been in the Jonerys server, where we come together to laugh and thirst and debate, sneaking conversations in between real-life commitments.

Upon meeting Kit and Emilia, I wanted them to know that despite how their characters were butchered, we'll never accept it. We're not just GOT fans, we're JONERYS FANS, a crazy, but loyal group that loves them fiercely and we're still here to defend them always. Whether we’re a reader, a writer, a creator of fanart or moodboards, they'll forever be our King and Queen.

I know that if you guys could, every single one of you would have been there with me. So this was my way to bring you along 😘

Ok...now that the sweet fluff is over, want to know how the interaction went? Here goes...

My plan was to ask if I could hug them, but everything happened so fast and as soon as I walked thru the curtains where they were, I was starstruck!! All I could do was smile like an idiot and hold my sign. They paused to read it and huge smiles spread over their faces! Kit read it out loud and asked what it was and I rushed out, "It's a group that gets together online 'cause we all love you guys so much! They wanted to be here but couldn't but they love you! And I love you!" And then Emilia said, "We have fans!" to Kit and he laughed. And she asked me, "Do you want us to hold it? And you can stand in the middle". But then instead of going in the middle I moved to Kit's outer side and he took my arm and moved me and then I touched his abs, (HIS ABS, GUYS, I TOUCHED KIT HARINGTON'S ABS!!!) pretending like I didn't know where to go, but really, I secretly did and just wanted him to touch me 😂

Then I put my arms around them and they both did the same to me, but Emilia's hand brushed my ass on accident (but I'll always pretend it was on purpose) and she said, "whoops" 🤣🙈. And I totally forgot to smile like the Insta girls showed me in order to look better - cause I just got felt up by Emilia! - and then they took the picture and I had no idea if I looked like shit or not and then the staff rushed me away but I quickly said, "I love you guys so much! Thank you!" and left.

So there you have it folks. The single greatest day of my secret fandom life. I may never wash my hand or my ass again cause both came into contact with Kit and Emilia and my life goals have been fulfilled 😜❤️

[naetaesarya]

The "human heart in conflict with itself"

More often than not, when I see or experience an exchange with somebody arguing that Jon and Dany are "more interesting" as enemies/"rivals", that person ends up being a Jonsa.

For instance, this is a classic view:

It's funny how many who would identify themselves as a Jonsa fan would say the same of Jonerys: "more interesting" as enemies, as "rivals", as antagonists. No "stale bread conflictless romance" for Jonsas!... Unless it's Jonsa, that is. These are the same people saying Jon will come back hyper fixated on protecting Sansa, reset his personal preferences and characteristics, will play "Beast" to Sansa's "Beauty", the "Prince Eric" to Sansa's "Ariel", and will literally manifest Sansa's happily ever after (or Sansa must sadly and gracefully let go of it and her love Jon as a selfless sacrifice for the independence of the North...) Jonsa fantasies aside, what exactly makes an antagonistic relationship between two strangers "interesting"? What dynamic exists here? It's just, at its most passionate, hate. There's no contrasting emotion, no push and pull, no exchange with another set of feelings. It's just one thing -- bad. Even if Jon found out he and Ramsay were blood related, I don't think Jon is going to have much of an inner conflict over killing the guy. This is the only "humanity" Jonsas allow Jon where Dany is concerned (a bit of shame of kinslaying), which I think is telling. More telling still is how Jonsas want Jon to deal with this and Dany: to sexually exploit, use, abuse, deceive Dany before deciding to coldly kill & dispose of her. And this is one of their leading theories. Most, if not all, of their theories depend on Dany going dark/"mad" -- they seem to involve more of Dany than Sansa. Sansa's chapters have both positive and negative contexts when 'sweet' is used but who's going around claiming how this means Sansa will be betrayed by a lover and killed by his hand? Yet, for Dany, this means Jon will betray her with a knife to the back during their intimacy so he can marry Sansa.

The word 'shadow' has been used 657 times in ASOIAF throughout all POVs and chapters -- it has been used descriptively, to convey mystery, uncertainty, it can be physical blocked light or a metaphor. In Jon's case, it's often used in terms of his mysterious/uncertain/unknown identity. But who cares? When it comes to Dany, it now means betrayal and ulterior motive and Pol!Jon. Jon will betray her with a knife to the back during their intimacy so he can marry Sansa. Sansa throws a feast for the nobles with a lemon cake "just for her" while famine spreads across the country? Queen. Dany feels hungry in the middle of nowhere, malnourished, and feverish? And the wolf cry didn't stop her from being hungry? She's Aerys come again. That's why it'll be a-ok when Jon will betray her with a knife to the back during their intimacy so he can marry Sansa.

But seriously, I don't have any expectation that Jon/Dany would be without conflict, especially in ASOIAF because it's GRRM and things are messy. However, ASOIAF's relationships are always full of emotion, though, and that's what I'd expect and really love to read. Lots and lots of emotions, conflicting, confusing, surprising, fun fun emotions. Jon and Dany are both very young and they're both pretty scarred with one currently dead. And you know, maybe it's Dany who'd have the issue with Jon rather than Jon clutching his pearls at Dany because what if a child does die due to Jon's actions/commands or Jon is pushed to execute a wildling hostage? Yeah? What if it's Dany clutching pearls and Jon telling her to deal with it. And then they go into the back and Maybe maybe that's what we'll see one day, hey. I need to get sober.

[rise-my-angel]

Because I love salt, what do you find to be the most annoying lines of so-called evidence or foreshadowing for ships you hate? For me it’s hard to pick just one but Jon saying Sansa looked radiant is up there for me because the idea that Jon had a crush on Sansa in the first book or before is so much worse than the thought of them meeting again and then developing feelings (which I still hate, but it’s just not as bad). It’s super normal for people to think their siblings look nice. Arya’s POV chapters also remark that Sansa is beautiful. Ashford theory is annoying because it was originally about the hound and Sansa (also hate this ship but the fans are a million times more tolerable). I also roll my eyes when fans insist that the bride of fire line foreshadows Dany marrying Jon (and I even LIKE that ship but only in an AU in my head where Lyanna is Jon’s mom but Rhaegar is NOT the father)

"Because I love salt"

You have come to the right place as this is an accurate real life photo of me running this blog:

Thats a good one I hate though, multiple siblings and family members in this series all compliment one another. Even characters with bad relationships compliment each other. In the books, Arya recalls that her father calls her pretty, which only Jon ever also called her. Does that mean Ned had romantic feelings for Arya? Or Lyanna for that matter? No of course not. Thinking someone in terms of beauty is zero indicator of attraction in any way.

Also its even funnier with Jonsas because Sansa herself notes that Arya looks just like Jon, and then on multiple occasions notes that she thinks Arya is ugly. So, its even less compelling.

In the show Tyrion compliments Cersei's beauty all the time and we know there is nothing to it. It's reading into something that isn't there beacuse if they ignore the way beauty is used in this series as a common compliment towards other highborns, then its a really simple box to check on really stock symptoms of attraction. (I also dont really enjoy Sansan but it is funny how they just stay in their circle and mind their business like they somehow are winning based on being not fucking annoying alone).

I'm gonna rapid fire for Jon here because pretty much every single ship he has is backed by the worst evidence known to man.

The idea that Jon never thinks about Sansa because he loves her the most is dumb and not how we know Jon works. He holds back what he says not what he thinks. He thinks of Sansa the least because despite being his sister, she treated him like shit because she looks down on him for being a bastard. Jon cares about her, but not anywhere near how he cares about his other siblings who have clearly shown him love and respect.

The worst of Jon and Arya is a very very old outline that grrm scrapped. Its an outline that wasnt used and most of it isnt canon so it is literally a piece of non evidence for a ship that is disgusting. (Both Jonsa and Jonrya make Jons good older brother behavior towards his sisters look predatory and the shippers are all literally too blind to realize it)

Jon and Dany have literally nothing to back that up, because they are staged as moral oppositions to one another, dont know the other exists, and the idea that the motif of ice and fire will be about the coming together of romance is antithetical to everything grrm has established about the themes of his story. They are so far from being a ship that literally the ONLY thing they have to support it is the show and thats an absolute joke (see my every post that got me blocked by jonerys stans for more detail)

Ygritte is a rapist, so I accept literally zero "evidence" on that ones validity.

I also hate the "the actors have chemistry" argument to support really bad ships, because some actors having chemistry doesnt equal good romance, it equals good on screen dynamics in its own unique way. Like Tywin and Arya in season 2 have GREAT chemistry, but I don't need to explain why shipping that is creepy. Catelyn and Jaime have great chemistry, but it doesn't mean anything was actually there which could've worked.

Like shipping is fine, but so many people just INSIST it is canon or meant to be instead of something fun to think about. I joke ship about Stannis and Davos because its fun but I'm not over here arguing that people who don't ship it are "ignoring the text in front of them deliberately".

Also honestly, its really funny to me that you had to specify you'd only like that ship if they weren't related. Big oof on that one. Jonerys stans hate the idea they couldn't be related because they somehow think Dany being his AUNT isn't at all creepy. Like, Dany is related to Jon the way Jon thinks hes related to his MOTHER. There is no capability of romance or attraction there, that's crazy.

People who are biologically related but don't know it, 99% of the time are in fact, still not accidentally attracted to each other because that's biological survival instinct. Anti inbreeding protocol. But they think because DANY was raised to think her families blood superiority driven incest is fine, that somehow means JON would think its fine. Jonsas have no argument for that they just have to pray desperately that Jon would want to fuck his little sister despite how much it makes him look like a predator.

I'm sorry, I hope you have water on hand to wash down all this goddamn salt I just threw at you all at once.

Really, it isn't individual lines that irk me, its the overall tendencies of these ships to put more emphasis on things that don't even exist to justify something they don't even realize WHY people think it's creepy. I don't hate a lot of ships, just...all pro incest ones, and ones that promote predatory/rapist behaviors. Which is why I don't ship much in this series.

We're probably not meant to ship many people in this series if I in any way understand even a modicum of why grrm writes the lack of romance the way he does.

[zoya-nazyalenskys]

so i get when people were all like ew incest 🤢 when it came to other shipping incest ships on got cause most of the couples on that show weren't related to each other so jaimecersei and jonerys were the outlier but when people are watching hotd aka the family fucking show and still freak out over the incest/fans shipping the incest ships like what are you doing here then???

[bohemian-nights]

House of the Dragon could’ve been so much better than what it was. I enjoyed it but I feel as though it was centered on Rhaenyra and because of that we missed out on fully seeing the dysfunctional-toxic family dynamics between all of the characters and how that affects them in their political and personal lives.

Centering it around Rhaenyra definitely was their biggest mistake. I know her fans like to deny this, but there is no question that this show is catering to her*(making Aegon into a rapist, giving Laena the worst arc possible, turning Alicent into someone clueless, Daeron not being there, Baela and Rhaena being pretty puppets, having Ser Vaemond call her a wh*re, having Daemon choke her, etc.).

*All things considering Aemond is given a fantastic arc and the only reason for that is because he is Ryan Condal’s Daemon🫠 If he wasn’t so well loved by him he’d be treated just as poorly as Aegon is. The dude literally said I don't care what you do with the rest, but you can't ruin my Aemond🤣(I love Aemond I just think it's funny what has happened).

And I’d like to say that the only reason why Rhaenyra’s rabid fanbase won’t admit that the show is pro-Rhaenyra is because most of them are pissed off that the show isn’t pro-Dumbnyra🤣

They thought that this show was going to give them Jonerys 2.0 minus you know the murder. That makes zero sense if you’ve read the book, Dumbnyra isn’t a romance. Daemon abandons her in her hour of need, but I’m pretty sure most of these fans either haven’t read the book or they’ve gotten so good at convincing themselves that their headcanons are the truth that they’ve forgotten what actually happens. Hence why they get irrationally angry when you show the unedited texts without the splicing and dicing act they try to pull🤣

Mini-rant aside, if the show was less pro-Rhaenyra and more about giving an unbiased account of events and showing that both sides were full of overly proud, selfish, power-hungry individuals who almost got their entire families killed, we’d have something that could rival the early days of GOT, but instead we get a “girl boss/the patriarchy is at fault” version of the Dance 🤦🏽‍♀️

[jackoshadows]

As a Jon fan, I’m curious about your take on this. In Jon’s dying thoughts, when he remembers Ygritte saying “you know nothing,” it comes right before his memory of Arya and right after his memory of Salsa. Stans of you know what ship say it came right after the memory of Salsa because Jon subconsciously associates Ygritte with her instead of Arya (lol). I’m a Jonerys shipper but it pusses me off when people try to diminish Arya’s importance to Jon. I think it was supposed to be juxtaposed before his memory of Arya, not after his memory of Salsa, because the text literally states that Ygritte reminds Jon of Arya and she’s clearly the most important thing to him in these dying moments. What do you think of this theory from shippers of you know what? Do you think that line is where it is specifically because of Arya, or is it just random?

Yes, this has been discussed numerous times in fandom and others have already explained the themes and meanings behind Jon's reaction to the letter countless times. It makes no difference to the same idiots who use Jon's ''What do you know of my heart, priestess? What do you know of my sister?' statement for Sansa. As pointed out many times, the entire basis for the Jonsa ship is replacing Arya with Sansa because her character functions better as a tradfem self-insert.

Again,

Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand. The Night’s Watch takes no part. He closed his fist and opened it again. What you propose is nothing less than treason. He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair. Kill the boy and let the man be born. He thought of Bran, clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey. Of Rickon’s breathless laughter. Of Sansa, brushing out Lady’s coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow. He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird’s nest. I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … I want my bride back …  “I think we had best change the plan,” Jon Snow said. - Jon, ADwD

I mean the themes are right there. There is also a possible Watsonian and Doylist implication/foreshadowing in this paragraph.

Bowen Marsh tells Jon this:

What you propose is nothing less than treason. For eight thousand years the men of the Night's Watch have stood upon the Wall and fought these wildlings. Now you mean to let them pass, to shelter them in our castles, to feed them and clothe them and teach them how to fight.

Maester Aemon tells Jon this:

“Allow me to give my lord one last piece of counsel," the old man had said, "the same counsel I once gave my brother when we parted for the last time. He was three-and-thirty when the Great Council chose him to mount the Iron Throne. A man grown with sons of his own, yet in some ways still a boy. Egg had an innocence to him, a sweetness we all loved. Kill the boy within you, I told him the day I took ship for the Wall. It takes a man to rule. An Aegon, not an Egg. Kill the boy and let the man be born." The old man felt Jon's face. "You are half the age that Egg was, and your own burden is crueler one, I fear. You will have little joy of your command, but I think you have the strength in you to do the things that must be done. Kill the boy, Jon Snow. Winter is almost upon us. Kill the boy and let the man be born.”

Ygritte tells Jon this:

"We'll go back to the cave," he said. "You're not going to die, Ygritte. You're not." "Oh." Ygritte cupped his cheek with her hand. "You know nothing, Jon Snow," she sighed, dying.

Jon is thinking about what to do, what choice to make - do nothing or take down Ramsay Bolton.

He remembers Bowen Marsh talking about breaking the laws of the Night's Watch and recalls Robb as he saw him the last time with snowflakes in his hair. Jon was first tempted to desert the NW for Robb and yet returned and decided to stay at the Watch no matter what. He also refuses Stannis offer of Winterfell - where his memories and thoughts of Robb was a big part of his angst and conflict of whether he should accept. He remained steadfast in his oaths both times.

He recalls Maester Aemon's advice of killing the boy and letting the man be born - it's about being hard, making the tough choices, do one's duty no matter how painful - he thinks back to his family that he did not and cannot help by law. He did kill the boy and put duty over love.

And finally he thinks back to Ygritte and 'you know nothing' - the girl with tangled hair who reminded him of Arya and who dies in his arms because he stuck to his oaths. Ygritte died... is he okay with the same happening to Arya because his oaths are more important?

The answer this time is a resounding no.

There is also a meta connection here.

He connects Bowen Marsh's words of treason with memories of Robb Stark. Robb was famously betrayed and killed by his own men, just like Marsh will end up doing to Jon Snow

Maester Aemon does not help his family, is unable to help his family despite knowing they were in trouble and Jon connects his words with his own family and being unable to help.

And finally Ygritte - his lover, the girl he loved and lost and who dies because he chose duty over love. And Jon connects her last dying words with Arya, reads Ramsay's threats and this time, this time chooses different.

There is also a parallel of sorts here where Arya decides to hide Needle. I talked here about how Needle is Arya's identity as Arya Stark of Winterfell, daughter of the North and the Faceless Men give her an ultimatum on becoming No One.

“It’s just a sword,” she said, aloud this time … … but it wasn’t. Needle was Robb and Bran and Rickon, her mother and her father, even Sansa. Needle was Winterfell’s grey walls, and the laughter of its people. Needle was the summer snows, Old Nan’s stories, the heart tree with its red leaves and scary face, the warm earthy smell of the glass gardens, the sound of the north wind rattling the shutters of her room. Needle was Jon Snow’s smile. He used to mess my hair and call me “little sister,” she remembered, and suddenly there were tears in her eyes. [—-] The gods wanted me to have it. Not the Seven, nor Him of Many Faces, but her father’s gods, the old gods of the north. The Many-Faced God can have the rest, she thought, but he can’t have this.

Just like Jon does, Arya goes down that list and includes her father and mother for good measure - Robb, Bran, Rickon, Catelyn, Ned and even Sansa. Needle was Winterfell, it's people, Old Nan and her stories, the heart trees.

Needle was Jon Snow's Smile... and that's when she decides that the Gods want her to have Needle and she is not going to throw it away.

So yeah, it's always Arya that Jon connects to Ygritte - her body, her hair, her personality (stubborn etc.) and it's Arya who finally pushes Jon to lead an army of Wildlings against the Warden of the North.

[kellyvela]

Hi! Sorry if you've been asked this before, I just can't find anything. Do you know if George has ever talked or has been asked about joneris in the past? I only know about that instance in which he asked about whether Jon and Dany would fight or fuck, but I wonder if he has ever talked more about them as a romantic option.

Hello Anon:

I remember Kit Harington being asked about whether Jon and Dany would fight or fuck . . . . Did they ask GRRM the same? 😂 If you have a link, please send that to me 🙏

Jon (ice) and Dany (fire) as a romantic couple is mostly a fan theory, a very popular one, and the show made it even more popular just to destroy it in the very end, by one half of the ship (ice) killing the other (fire) . . . .

Now, as far as I know, GRRM never said anything about Jon and Dany as a romantic couple. He mostly avoid the question or make it about politics . . . . But there is certain secondary source that claims GRRM told him that the meeting of Jon and his aunt is the point of the story . . . .

Let's see:

[Future meeting between Daenerys and Jon Snow?] GRRM: Keep reading [Source]

~~~

“Some people I met thought we have to find the story’s through line. Who’s the important character? Somebody thought that Dany’s the important character – cut away everybody else, tell the story of Dany. Or Jon Snow. Those were the two most popular characters to build everything around, except you’re losing 90 percent of the story”. 

—Rollingstone 2014

~~~

“I had a number of meetings long before David and Dan, with people who said this is the next Lord of the Rings franchise. But they couldn’t get a handle on the size of the material, the very thing that I set out to do. I had all these meetings saying, “There’s too many characters, it’s too big — Jon Snow is the central character. We’ll eliminate all the other characters and we’ll make it about Jon Snow.” Or “Daenerys is the central character. We’ll eliminate everyone else and make the movie about Daenerys.” And I turned down all those deals”.

—Time Magazine 2017

~~~

Do you already know where certain events will lead the Game of Thrones story? Like the relationship between Daenerys and Jon Snow, for example? GRRM: That, I know it. And for many years. But of course, I will not reveal anything to you, it will be necessary to wait for the books. Fire and Blood is a long time before the tomes of the Game of Thrones saga, even if the most attentive readers will find some omens, allusions to subsequent events. But it's no more allusive to Jon Snow or Daenerys than a book about Abraham Lincoln to the Trump administration. —Society Magazine Interview [https://www2.lekiosk.com/fr/publication/society/21423629█ 201812 Society Magazine.pdf]

~~~

About the ice and fire thing that many people believe represents Jon and his aunt, that's a pretty cursory interpretation, not only because GRRM himself said the White Walkers are the ice and aunty and her pets are the fire, but he also said that the title's meaning has many layers, a primary, a secondary, a tertiary meaning, etc. At most, when someone asked about Jon and aunty being the characters most associated with those elements, GRRM said that that was a way to interpret it.

Ice and fire are not meant to be lovers, ice and fire are meant to clash! Read more about it here:

Also take note that GRRM still named the series A Song of Ice and Fire in the so called original outline, but Jon and his aunt was completely nonexistent in his plans. Doesn’t that kind of kill that whole ice and fire argument? Read more about it here:

And of course the Jon and aunt shippers will hold onto a secondary source, the GOT director Alan Taylor, that claims GRRM told him that Jon and his aunt are meant to be, are the point of the story, the ice and fire, etc, which contradicts GRRM's own words in the quotes above.

You can read about the Alan Taylor issue here:

But just think about this very telling fact: The supposed words that GRRM told to Alan Taylor about Jon and aunty being "the ice and fire", "the point of the story", are not featured in So Spake Martin, the legit source for anything that the author has said about Asoiaf over the years. Alan Taylor gave multiples interviews during GOT's S7 about what GRRM told him about Jon and aunty during the filming of S1 in Malta, and he even repeated those words in some behind the scenes DVD stuff or something, and none of these is featured in the main source of GRRM's words about Asoiaf. And I wonder: Why??? Why none of Alan Taylor's "reports" is featured in So Spake Martin, like many others fan reports of their talking, correspondace, encounters, Q&A, etc, with GRRM about Asoiaf???

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Thanks for your message!

[popeheyward]

Big Ol' Fic/Writers Rec

disclaimer before we start: mind the tags of any fic you read or consider reading!! and please be respectful of all these authors <3

disclaimer part 2: im going to tag the different fandoms i've mentioned but will try to be specific so im not filling every secondary tag on tumblr! love you, also long post ahead uwu

tospreadthewingsofthesoul most of what i've read of theirs is DCU related but all their works are super good uwu ^^

intermundia star wars writer w/ such fun and engaging fics!! love love love them <3

himboskywalker also a SW writer for the most part <33 i want to read all their fics for the first time again!!

sanerontheinside SW part 3.......you know the drill............amazing fics + smut

sarahbeniel mostly marvel w/ a smattering of witcher. absolutely all of their works are incredible, though Meet Me At Sunset specifically has a soft-spot in my heart!!!

dordean someone im v lucky to have spoken with!! super sweet, super talented, i want to be them when i grow up, etc so on and so forth ^^ main fandom ive read from them is the witcher, but as is the case w/ all of these writers, any of their fics/fandoms are bound to be stunning <33

elizzablue their asoiaf works are primarily what i've read. winter came (with fire and blood) is one of the most stunningly beautiful fics i've ever come across. personally not a big fan of jonerys (bc im not the biggest fan of jon. im sorry + please don't hate me jon fans + if you love him you're so valid and im smooching you) but elizza makes it work. if you want a realistic yet still mostly happy ending for all GOT characters (especially daenerys) this fic is for you!! they have other works in other fandoms if asoiaf isn't for you, so you could always check those out too if you're interested!

lady_ragnell lovely lovely writer, whose fics I've read are primarily in the vikings tv show fandom <3 1000000/10 <33

underragingwaves (captain killy) also a vikings tv enjoyer, though writes for different characters than ragnell! has some x reader + OC works that are chefs kiss c:

ReganX also an asoiaf writer. forewarned specifically is an absolute perfect fic that i could read over and over <33

adlyb writes mostly for the vampire diaries/the originals universe. long fics that i want to physically injest!!

BlueKiwi another asoiaf writer whose fics are just brilliantly captivating! i am barking like a rabid dog btw c:

IMPoSTRSYNDRM writes for the twilight fandom!! some of the most incredibly detailed fics. so incredible in fact, i had to google how to spell "incredibly" because i was salivating over their writing!

Beckala the fics i've currently read myself are all from marvel but they have other fandoms they've written for if marvel isn't your style! they have such a good balance of humor + seriousness in their dialogue. it's just a joy to read <33

[branwendaughterofllyr]

What's the deal with these BNFs like JoLa and such lmao? Sorry I wasn't chronically online during GOT so I had no idea this was a thing until recently LOL.

Oh man, nonny, you are really taking me back. BNFs or “Big Name Fans” are one of the worst aspects of ASOIAF/GOT fandom in my humble opinion. I think the fact that there has been such large gaps in between books, a lot of fans are really desperate for content and thus BNFs are created to fill that need for new ASOIAF content, their word only being surpassed by George. Most BNFs have one or two good takes/theories that got them big and then are uniformally idiots in everything else they say, but the fandom takes them as gospel because they’ve been around so long or were right about one really important thing. A lot of the biggest of the BNFs originated on the westeros.org forums and actually interacted occasionally with George back when he still did stuff like that, and now are considered authorities on the series. The most successful BNFs are probably Elio and Linda who now actually work with George and co-wrote AWOIAF with him (and they’ve had their own very stupid drama that I cannot be bothered to remember. @starkmaiden probably remembers it though. She’s my go to fandom drama lorist)

A lot of the worst but most widely accepted theories can be traced back to a BNF, and since the books have been so slow in coming, these theories ended up just becoming part of the fabric of the fandom. It also doesn’t help that most BNFs are absolute divas that hate it when they end up being wrong or having pushback. I remember rolling my eyes at BryndenBFish who had particularly influential (but often very dumb) theories who I believe left the fandom in a huff and deleted all his stuff. The worst BNF fans in my opinions are the ones who made super long videos or podcasts about the most inane details (I’m taking specifically about Lucifermeanslightbringer here since I ended up listing to like ten hours of the Bloodstone Compendium trying desperately to understand why he was so popular)

On tumblr during GoT, most of the BNFs here were part of the asoiafuniversity account, (including the lovely JoLa) which branded itself as neutral but was decidedly not lol, and had particular drama with people who asserted the Dark Dany theory, which ended up being true, lol. I think they even straight up banned contributions that supported “Mad Dany” at one point. Most BNFs tend to be pro-jonerys, pro-Tyrion, pro-Dany, intensely into Targaryen history (and weirdly a lot of them were really into Stannis before he bit it. The Stannis the Mannis faction was crazy but also kinda fun lol) I’ve always been pro-Bran, pro-Catelyn, and pro-Sansa, so I never really got too into the BNFs, but I did accept that Tyrion, Jon, and Dany were the three heads of the dragons before I read ADWD because everyone else seemed to think that was the case.

And that to me is the biggest problem with BNFs, that a lot of them still espose theories and takes that they came up with before AFFC/ADWD were published and they refuse to budge even though there’s clearly been a shift. (This was before the show ended, which changed a lot of the fandom landscape)

(I also think that a lot of them couldn’t analyze their way out of a paper bag, but that seems to just be me lol. The POV trap is very real for most of these people.)

I’ve also noticed that a lot of BNFs are also Wheel of Time fans, and sometimes use that series to theorize about the end of ASOIAF, which is uh, a strategy I guess. (I know George likes it and all but I think the series have very different vibes, and George has listed series he was drawing on and I don’t think WoT was on that list. Somebody somewhere compiled it, and I think LoTR and The Dragonbone Chair were on it.)

The greatest hits of the BNFs in my opinion are that Tyrion, Jon and Dany are the three heads of the dragon and are going to save the world, which was widely accepted as the ending to the series, by pretty much everyone who was anyone. Season 8 killed that stone dead though, big lol from me. Some people still believe it though for some reason. Some three heads of the dragon propenents also believed it in conjunction with the “Tyrion is secretly a Targaryen” theory which has like one piece of actual evidence, that Aerys had a thing for Joanna, and the weight of Tyrion is Tywin’s son thematic narrative against it.

My favorite offshoot of the three heads of the dragon theory is the curtain of light one, which is simply *chef’s kiss* Basically the curtain of light that Bran sees at the edge of the world is entirely literally and in no way a metaphor, and Bran will have nothing to do with it. Instead, Jon and Dany are going to fuck in the curtain of light to save the world while Tyrion awkwardly watches, and the baby they conceive will be the messiah. AMAZING stuff right there. And because this brilliant take was thought up by a BNF, it actually gained a fair amount of traction.

Other highlights include screeching about the “Main Five” in which they only grudgingly include Bran in order to exclude Sansa from having any relevance to the big endgame, that Catelyn is an absolute bitch responsible for all evils in the world, that Tywin is the biggest mastermind in Westeros, that f!Aegon is definitely fake with no room to debate, Val will be plot relevant to Jon somehow (as his future Queen for those who aren’t super into Jon and Dany endgame), Stannis will take WF, Jaime is going to be redeemed, and Azhor Ahai is some eleborate metaphor for the nature of the universe.

Say what you will, but BNFs really did fill some of the content void while we all wait for TWOW but a lot of them were absolutely batshit and their insane takes were taken extremely seriously by most of the fandom. Some of them even did rounds at conventions I believe. There are some BNFs still around and kicking but a lot of them left permanently after the show ended, which fair enough. The meltdowns during s8 were spectacular and many. Almost makes up for how shitty the show’s writing was lol.

My pet BNF was JoLa, and I even had some civil interactions with her about non Jonsa metas, related to her one good contribution to the fandom, the Dead Ladies Club. She had some of the wildest takes about Dany despite her constantly claiming she wasn’t that invested in non-Lannister theories and ships.

The BNFs were a fascinating phenomenon that you really had to experience in real time to get the full breadth of insanity. The most crazy takes being taken as basically canon really made me feel like I was losing it, or straight up reading different books.

[ilargizuri]

Daenerys next Lover

Okay, the Tag and the title kind of contradict each other but let me explain, as far as we know GRRM has 2/3 of Winds finished for publication and as far as I understand capitalism if GGRM doesn't make a Michalamgelo Move and destroys that 2/3 of a Book, we actually can kinda expect these 2/3 of a Book being published if it isn't finished and published before GRRM can do that by himself.

To understand what I mean you should read stuff about Michelangelo, not only to understand my Reference but also because he was a great Artist and a fascinating Human being, even if he most likely had a Problem with Women because he probably preferred Men, at least when we take into consideration that his Portrays of Women are not part of his Masterpieces.

So, Daenerys next Lover, most will say: JON! I say: Nope!

Why? I had to reread all of Daenerys's Chapters for my Theory about the Sphinx and how that foreshadows the Fate of some of the Characters in my Opinion. And I realized something, Jon Snow is too young!

Let's recap her former male Lovers: First Kahl Drogo, a violent Dothraki Warrior in his thirties, with long dark hair, with Bells in it. Second Daario Naharis, a violent Sellsword, with most likely blond Hair that is coloured in flashy Colors although his Age is nowhere mentioned I think it is safe to assume that he is older than Daenerys because of the things he does and says.

Both are Violent Warrior-Types, both a lot older than Daenerys and in both cases, GRRM described their Hair a lot. So most likely Daenerys's next Lover will be an experienced Warrior, with special Hair and he will most likely be a lot older than Daenerys.

If we take all this into consideration and also that Daenerys is a Horny Teenager in the Books who even uses her female "Servants" for sexual pleasure, her next Lover will be Victarion Gryjoy, because he fits her Type and both of them will travel to Westeros on a ship.

Also, 2/3 of a Book is done, both Characters Tyrion and Victarion needed ONE whole Book to travel to Meereen. Also, they haven't even met Daenerys yet, so it is safe to assume that Daenerys won't arrive in Westeros until the End of Winds. So her next Lover will be on that Journey and if she leaves Daario in Essos as she did in the TV show, then Daenerys has a whole Book without a sexual Partner. This did happen before, but only if there wasn't any Person who fit her Type because then she did fall back to her female Servants to give her Pleasure.

So she will most likely end up with Victarion Greyjoy. So no matter what happens in Dream of Springs, these 2/3 of Winds exist and in this 2/3 it is more likely to happen that Jon meets Sansa and Rikkon, so no matter what, Jonsas will have more canon interactions in the Books than Jonerys fans will ever get. So I call this new Ship Daerion.

[esther-dot]

Myrcella and Trystane had better chemistry than Jonerys despite less screen time. Myrcella had better reaction of her parentage as it was more family moment than Jon parentage.

They were so sweet!

It’s absolutely baffling to me that D&D had no trouble delivering romantic pairings that were believable except for their epic romance of the series. I personally don’t hold the actors responsible or even really blame lack of chemistry (in the 8x04 scene Kit acted Jon kissing Dany just fine), and think the problem was in the writing and D&D’s failure to decide what they were doing?

I wrote this a few years ago:

It’s so weird that D&D wanted to present J*nerys as forbidden love when the only thing that prevented them from getting together in s7 was…nothing.

Tyrion and Dany planned for a strategic marriage back in s6, we even have the Littlefinger/Sansa convo in s7 to clarify that a Jon/Dany marriage would make the most political sense, and Jon might “want” to marry her.

If they were meant to be a parallel to Jon/Ygritte, love between two soldiers on opposite sides of the war…well, that just doesn’t work when Jon and Dany are the ones in power.  If J*nerys was meant to be a parallel to Rhaegar/Lyanna…that comparison doesn’t make sense because a Jon/Dany union would have been the political solution, not a problem (pre-parentage reveal). Missandei dismisses the bastard issue, and since a marriage alliance would could have ended their stalemate in s7, the writers left no reason for Jon (or the advisers) not to suggest it. And it would have been far more believable that Jon suggest that than try to father a bastard with Dany (considering his trauma surrounding that issue). The only in-world reason they left us with for why Jon didn’t suggest marriage during s7 is that he didn’t want to.

It was on the writers’ minds because of that convo between Littlefinger and Sansa, so clearly they thought of it and just opted never to explain it in s8. Which means D&D tied the culmination of the show to a relationship that they hoped we would see as star-crossed love when the story they gave us said it wasn’t.

(link)

And, not only did they not pick a specific approach to make it overall make sense, they didn’t have heartwarming moments where J/D seemed to actually connect as equals. All their scenes involved political disagreements or reminders of Dany’s ambition. Well, all but the sex scene but they didn’t give any context for that, we just had them and Bran’s voiceover (he did nothing to deserve that!) in a very off-putting scene. The decisions were all so determinedly bad with them! I have watched couples that make me care about them in-spite of awful writing, but it’s unreal to me that D&D didn’t actually sit down and figure out what their angle was and the result was a toxic mess. So much of the impact of the finale rested on the horror of Jon killing Dany that it is inexcusable they failed there. I suppose at that point they could have been so checked out that they didn’t make sure the scripts aligned, but we’ve been told how they micromanage the performances so without a coherent thought behind the J/D story, and with them feeding ideas without a clear picture of what they were up to, I think they made it very difficult for the actors to do much.

Anyway, it really is amazing that such a huge chunk of s7 was dedicated to getting J/D to bang, and everyone (fans and critics) complained about how awful the relationship was while D&D had no difficulty with delivering other romantic pairings like Myrcella and Trystane that weren’t as pivotal to the ending of the series. I think that habit of changing the story in the editing process bit them in the ass big time with J/D because that relationship was just so jarring, I have to think they were going back and forth on different ideas and that contributed to how off it was. I wasn’t a shipper, was the most casual of fans when I first watched s7, but I didn’t enjoy any of their scenes. All were deeply unpleasant, and usually, there’s a breaking point where the characters connect emotionally and it draws you in and you see how they’re good for each other/make each other happy/or if it’s a toxic ship, you have that undeniable chemistry and believe they’re inexorably drawn to each other. But nope! I got nothin. When I watched the finale I thought D&D had been working against their own story during s7-8, and I still can’t figure out what the hell they were thinking.

I agree about Myrcella’s parentage reveal too. I can still remember her face when she’s talking to Jaime. It was presented in an emotional/relational context which makes it matter to the audience, but I actually can’t remember the specific words Jon says when he’s told, just that he was angry and stormed away. He tells Dany “it’s true. I know it is” so we know he accepts it, but I don’t know what to make of his feelings. Is he upset with Rhaegar? Ned? Is he ok with being a Targ? Did he wish he wasn’t? How did he come to accept it so quickly? What inside of him told him this was true? None of that mattered to D&D, they wanted to get Dany angry, isolated, and paranoid. That was all the use they had for parentage reveal. 😩

[fir3-and-bl00d]

fanfic writer questions

(answered 01/21/24)

How many works do you have on AO3?

My page says 16, but 2 of those got combined into 1 fic, so it's really 14.

What's your total AO3 word count?

1,382,274

What are your top 5 fics by kudos?

In order from most to least it's: The Night We Met, A Marriage of Convenience, A Little Help From Your Family, Dragons Across The Sea, & A Song For Dragons

Do you respond to comments? Why or why not?

I try my best to because I think it's important to interact with my readers and to explain the writing choices I make. I've gotten really bad at responding lately, but I promise I read every single comment. Getting a really detailed comment saying why/what you liked about a certain chapter always makes my day ❤️

What's the fic you've written with the angstiest ending?

None because I only write happy endings for jonerys and also all of my long-term fics are still ongoing!

What's the fic you've written with the happiest ending?

I mean The Chamber of the Painted Table had a happy ending in that jonerys ends up engaged lol. But like I said above, all my fics will have happy endings for Jon & Dany and all their targlings.

Do you write crossovers? If so, what's the craziest one you've ever written?

I don't write crossovers! Only GoT/HoTD/TWOIAF for me!

Have you ever received hate on a fic?

Unfortunately, yes on both Dragons Across The Sea and A Little Help From Your Family. Most of the time it's people bashing a specific character (usually Jon or Dany).

Do you write smut? If so, what kind?

When I first started writing fanfic, no. But now ... definitely lol. Is it even one of my fics if we don't have some dominant Jon, the Targaryen breeding kink, and an aunt/nephew kink?

As for the kind, M/F with a focus on dirty talk since I think that's hot. I'm not the biggest fan of reading smut that's just big long blocks of description with no dialogue, so I try to avoid that.

Have you ever had a fic stolen?

Not that I'm aware of!

Have you ever had a fic translated?

I don't think so. I'm open to it as long as I'm credited as the author!

Have you ever co-written a fic before?

NO but that should change (hopefully) sometime later this year! Robbaery & Jonerys nation keep an eye out ... 👀

What's your all time favorite ship?

JON SNOW/DAENERYS TARGARYEN and they have no other competition in my mind.

What's a WIP you want to finish but don't think you ever will?

Hmm, that's a good one. I think Dragons Across The Sea simply because of where the story is right now. (jon and dany are still very far away in Essos - Yunkai to be exact - and with everything I have planned for that story, it's going to take a longggggg time to write all of it)

What are your writing strengths?

I personally think dialogue and inner monologue come easily to me, specifically with Jon and Dany. It's also very easy for me to write romantic scenes for my ships, I love writing my babies being in love!

What are you writing weaknesses?

Definitely describing clothing and locations. Also battle scenes make me want to throw my laptop out a window. I have such respect for the authors out there that can really write a good battle sequence without losing the audience's interest. Same with people who can describe clothing so well that I can picture it in my mind.

What are your thoughts on writing dialogue in other languages in a fic?

Well if y'all have read my stuff, you know the only other language I use is Valyrian. I think it's natural for characters like Dany, Rhaenyra, Daemon, Maester Aemon, Aemon the Dragonknight, Naerys, etc to speak it since they grew up learning it. I especially adore taking terms of endearment in English and translating them into Valyrian. Examples include ñuha jorrāelagon (my love) and ñuha prūmia (my heart).

You'll usually see me writing Jon picking up on Valyrian since Dany uses it with him. I just think it's super adorable for jonerys to call each other pet names in both the Common Tongue and Valyrian (the language of their ancestors). And of course, there's times where I write them speaking it in nsfw situations hehe.

What was the first fandom you wrote for?

Game of Thrones/ASOIAF and it's the only fandom I've written for so far.

What's your favorite fic you've written?

I'll say my favorite fic I've written/currently writing is The Night We Met. The progression of jonerys' relationship in that fic is everything to me, and I got super emotional when I wrote their wedding on Dragonstone. There's so many moments in that fic where I show how devoted they are to each other <3

here's my AO3!