#me analyzing a show with inconsistent writing that cares less about these characters than i do? more likely than you think

[akkpipitphattana]

The excuses can go on and on. Robbe was fighting internalized homophobia bc of past encounters; Moyo was a-hole bc of untold dysfunction in his life ; sander was a cheater bc has abandonment issues; Britt is a perpetual problem bc she has been hurt so much by ppl she trusted that it's hardened her and jens was a fence sitter bc he struggles with wanting to be accepted. Everybody surely has an excuse for their loathsome behavior but ppl are very selective with which excuses they accept

And I agree with you!!! I think there’s a fine line between excusing someone’s actions vs recognizing why they did something and why those reasons don’t damn them completely, y’know? Like I feel like something a lot of people in fandom struggle with in general is recognize that things aren’t just black and white. You can admit your favorite character has flaws and did shitty things without having to hate them.

And like this is definitely too much nuance for a show with such shitty writing, but at the end of the day, they’re all teenagers. I absolutely hate when people use the “everyone’s fighting a battle you know nothing about” to justify genuinely horrible behavior, but it’s also completely true. Robbe dealt with an immense amount of homophobia and bullying before his season, so he internalized it, and as a result he did things he regretted like lashing out at Sander and using Noor. Those aren’t good thing, and I’m not excusing them, but there was a reason for it.

I talked about it in the ask I got the other day about Moyo, but he was 100% an asshole, and what he was going through at home doesn’t excuse his homophobia or misogyny either - those are the kinds of things I personally don’t think has any real excuses. But, I also think the wtFOCK writers were also just shitty in the way they portrayed him in the first place, and I also believe people can grow and learn from their mistakes. Which, at the very least Moyo learned from the way he treated Robbe at the end of s3.

I also don’t condone the shit either Sander or Britt did during s3 — cheating is never okay, and neither is hitting your partner (or your ex, in Britt’s case), but again, these are teenagers. People are allowed to learn and grow from their mistakes and I really wish it wasn’t something people pick and choose about. Especially because I feel like most of the time when they do pick and choose, it’s so often “this person has done nothing wrong ever” and “this person is the worst person ever” when neither of those statements are ever true. Most characters, especially those on wtFOCK, who again, are a bunch of teenagers, fall somewhere in the middle.

[jadeyarts]

Curious. What do you think of Vlad masters/Vlad Plasmius? I feel like he got dirty in the show. Especially in season 3. And especially the season 3 finale. But what are your thoughts?

honestly: i don't care about vlad that much? getting into specifics depends on what angle we tackle how to analyze his character and how he's portrayed from episode to episode. but in general, i don't think about him often because... i mean... why would i? jack is a far more interesting and complex character. i'd rather think about jack.

i find that vlad was never a well-balanced, coherent or nuanced character at any point - not even in his introduction - nor did they ever make an attempt for him to be. and while i often disagree with takes that certain main characters are under-characterized, inconsistent, superficial - or that plot points or story writing isn't great - but vlad is a character i can't help but feel that those statements are accurate in relation to. i don't think there was ever going to be any direction they could have taken his character that wouldn't have in some way felt at odds with the tone of the series or with his characterization, because i feel that the intersection of his characterization, backstory, and role in the series and how they effect each other is not one that was as well-thought out and planned as people take it to be.

and to that extent, i personally don't feel he was done any more dirty than anyone else was in season 3 - season 3 was just overall kind of a tonally incoherent and strange season, with d-stabilized being the only one that really felt like it fit in with the first two seasons. but at the same time, vlad is not really a character in which i feel there was any other way for his character to go without completely changing his character suddenly and abruptly in a way that would have broke continuity (last thing anyone wants in a serialized cartoon) and then at that point it really might as well not be vlad anyways.

vlad is, in theory an interesting character and i see the value he can add to the narrative of the series! i get the appeal of his character from that perspective! but in execution? i kinda don't think he does a good job at being an antagonist you're meant to take seriously as a credible threat and sympathize with to some degree. while i confidently believe every other antagonist introduced in the first two seasons has a solid role and place in the series and it's narrative and that they feel like coherent and nuanced characters that i can sympathize with to some degree no matter how absurd their concept, antics, or escalation, vlad is not such a character.

when he's pathetic, whiny, and ineffective as a minor role in an episode i can enjoy his presence because it's funny to watch him be a pathetic loser. but in episodes where he is meant to be a more credible threat or otherwise take on a major role, i find him to be unenjoyable and out of place due to how little thought anyone put into writing or conceptualizing him especially in regards to his backstory or how he relates to danny and his parents in theory - or how he interacts with anyone, those characters in particular or the world at large. and don't get me started on his involvement with valerie's arc (or do, i'm not your mom)

1/10 vlad wishes he had an iota of the swag any of his spiderman influences (norman osborn, dr. otto octavius, morbius) possess. pick a struggle already. perhaps if the writers had relied on his influences less, he would have been a more well-rounded and balanced character. perhaps he is embodiment of what they mean when they say too many cooks in the kitchen spoil the broth. whose to say.

[bombshellsandbluebells]

idk, i’m with you that it’s close-minded to act like every single bellarke scene was always romance and only romance, but i don’t think it’s totally fair to place the blame of reading bellarke scenes as romantic just on the idea that we’re trained to see strong m/f friendships that way—especially when bob has just been talking about how they were told to play the scenes with a romantic angle. take “here we are again, pleading for the life of a traitor who you love”—deliberately paralleling someone bellamy not only loves platonically, but also romantically

and it does go back to earlier seasons imo. “but you care about him more” establishes a love interest’s jealousy over another relationship—not inherently romantic in reality, but without further follow-through that jealousy, all the narrative purpose it serves is to bring the possibility of romantic feelings to the forefront. even small lines like “the hostage taker and his girlfriend” obviously aren’t intentional setup on the character’s part—diyoza’s a total stranger who makes sarcastic jabs, it’s who she is—but from a narrative standpoint, that line was deliberately written that way and included in what the viewer sees. i don’t think this negates the deep platonic care there, nor suggests that bellarke can only be read romantically, but i do think it’s fair to say the relationship was, at least at some level, set up as a romantic one

Ok yes, totally! I think you have great points! 

And I feel like I should clarify that I was not trying to be condescending at all with saying we’re trained to see strong m/f friendships romantically. I think that was more a random tangent my own thoughts ended up in as I was thinking about this and the way it’s been framed vs. the way it’s often been read by the fandom and was wondering if that was a factor. And while it MAY be in some areas, you brought up some good moments that I was totally forgetting that seem to set the precedent for people to view it romantically.

@drowinginherflames commented and brought up the scene in s1 where he taught her how to shoot and mentioned it was coded pretty romantically, only it was never followed through with.

I guess here’s where I’ll end up with Bellarke and it’s pretty much what I originally said: I think it was told inconsistently. The moments like above that seem to suggest romance are never fully paid off or expanded upon. They don’t lead anywhere or to anything in a cohesive, consistent manner, but the moments are still THERE to read romance from. That said, I still think those moments make up far less of the show than some people think.

And I think there could be a number of reasons - it’s possible they started with a plan to set up Bellarke romantically in the first few seasons (maybe going off the books) and eventually decided otherwise for whatever reasons. Maybe they went back and forth on what they wanted. Maybe they decided they didn’t want to pay it off romantically but deliberately gave nods to the shippers along the way. Who knows. 

None of me talking about this is meant to sound like “you crazy shippers saw something that wasn’t there” (although I will be honest there are certain meta posts claiming canonical “proof” that are complete nonsense and in THOSE particular cases I think it’s people building something out of nothing) because shipping can be built out of whatever scraps of canon you want and interpretations vary by audience, but more just me looking at the writing and fandom and just....I don’t know, analyzing for fun I guess.

I disagree with the idea that they were telling a romantic storyline and building to a Bellarke endgame consistently for 6 seasons and then didn’t pay it off, but ALSO I think you’re right to bring up moments that seem deliberately romantically coded. It’s there and it’s not haha. Schrodinger’s Bellarke.

Now with B*b saying he was told to play it romantically, I’m going to be honest and say I don’t take his word as proof. That’s not to say he isn’t telling the truth - maybe they were told that, I can’t say they weren’t - BUT I’m not taking his word as absolute truth based on what has recently been revealed of his character and because of how much he has to gain by appealing to the fanbase now AND the fact that it’s completely at odds with how he’s talked about the ship in the past. He could be telling the truth, he could be trying to win favor with the fandom after his reputation was hurt, I don’t know.

Anyways, good points, anon! Thanks for bringing up the lines/moments I completely forgot.

Also @dylanobrienisbatman this is probably a better answer for you! I was forgetting all these moments even existed.

[flying-elliska]

Ok I caught up with wtfock s3 because well, it felt weird to leave unfinished (except a few clips i just didn’t want to watch, like the attack one). here’s what worked and didn’t for me (i’m pretty critical so don’t read if that sort of thing upsets you or you’re not in the mood) because i still think having this story remade so often is an unprecendented storytelling experiment worth thinking about even when it doesn’t entirely work (and i think argumented criticism is good, but if you post hate about the actors/fans etc you really suck tbh) : 

- to start with positives : like many said, the acting was pretty damn good. overall wtfock has a really solid cast. the willems have succeeded in creating an onscreen queer intimacy that feels very believable, no holds barred and no awkwardness, and they have to be commended for that. there’s a lot of chemistry and tension at first between them, which then turns into something very soft and sweet and puppy-love-like. it was nice seeing Robbe evolve and the sweet bean energy that emanates from how the actor plays him is very very powerful. i also loved the warmth of the flatshare, and as a Dutchie I just adored the Sinterklaas bits, it was so funny and i loved the found family vibes. warmth is just something they do really well, esp with the last clips, perfume shopping, playing board games, the party at the end. They use the Christmassy vibes really well. the cinematography has its moments too, contrasts between warm and cold, the episode at the beach is gorgeous, the sequence in the tunnel, the light on their faces when they are in that classroom surrounded by drawings. wtfock as a whole is also good at creating some very lovable secondary characters, be it Milan, Yasmina, Noor, or especially king Senne. So, I do understand that there are things to love about this remake, which is probably why my disappointment feels so strong. I really wanted to care about these characters in their journey. 

- on to the controversial : i don’t necessarily fault them for wanting to show a more prononced aspect of homophobia. i think the debate about this often lacks nuance. on one hand, this is the sixth remake, and homophobia is something that is still often prevalent, and having one remake show that out of six is not in itself a problem. on the other, yes, happy fluffy stories are important, but sometimes people who have gone through stuff like this also need to see their experiences represented. the power of skam is that it shows difficult experiences BUT ALSO a happy ending. that can be very healing, i think, compared to other stories which focus only on the drama. the trouble is, i don’t think they dealt with it very well, or put any effort into processing the consequences of these harrowing things. and if you don’t, it feels cheap.

- on to my main gripe : the writing. previsible, i know. but to me, essential. and this is not about them ‘changing things’ - i like when remakes change stuff, when they do it well. the thing is, i have been burned too many times before. and when i sense that the writing is being wack, it makes it automatically much harder for me to invest emotionally in the characters. and simply put there were signs early on that made me distrust the writers. for starters, the first two episodes gave me a feeling that they didn’t have their priorities in order. the POV-immersion and depth is one of the most powerful aspects of skam, and it was lost. too many early clips felt out of Robbe’s perspective, and when it was him it was about Noor ; a few clips to show his discomfort were on point, but there were too many of them, and there were repetitive, losing time on what isn’t really an essential part of Robbe’s journey. and while they were spending time on clips that felt like misery flavored filler, they decided several times to condense original clips focused on Isak and Even, together ; like their first meeting and then their first hangout, or later in the series OHN and the minute by minute talk. and i think their story suffered from that. i think because they don’t have a real discussion early on, the buildup of their relationship feels mostly based on physical attraction. and while it certainly is a thing that happens, it just isn’t my fave love story thing. i missed the sweet pining from afar and tension that makes later drama believable. it felt like they brought the drama comparatively too fast without enough character work to make it worthwhile. Also there is just too much time spent on Zoenne drama, and their breakup seems like it foreshadows the dreaded s4 love triangle, which, yikes. the focus is all over the place, the rythm felt incoherent. 

- what’s more, they decided to introduce pretty grave elements of plot, like Robbe using slurs against Sander, the homophobic attack, the suicidal urges on both their sides, Sander kissing Britt while he was still saying I love you to Robbe in the morning, without either proper build up or resolution. It made it all feel cheap, jarring, and unearned, especially when they didn’t put trigger warnings or made jokes about it on insta or waited forever to give news about the characters being ok. it felt like drama for the sake of drama, and definitely not written with a vulnerable audience of queer teens in mind. and at the same time, when it came to the ‘big scenes’ of their relationship, like the first kiss or the universes talk or sander’s episode, it felt more or less lifted from OG without a lot of effort made to adapt it to them. i actually quit live watching/blogging after the first kiss scene, because of how similar it was, and how uninspired it felt, and lukewarm. it felt like a lack of imagination. when it came to OHN, the scene in itself was lovely, but the weird time gap, random timing and people seemingly doing nothing after a suicidal Sander disappeared, sort of broke it for me.  In the OG the combo of buildup, longing, realisation, fear, release works so well in a sequence, and splitting it over time really diluted it, to me. Similarly the quickly thrown out ‘life is now’ at the ending felt sort of out of nowhere, while in OG it was such a lovely bookend, him apologizing to Eva and reflecting on his growth. The symbolism, which ties everything so beautifully together in themes of rebirth, salvation, baptism, union, faith, deciding your own narrative in OG, here feels inconsistent. There is an attempt I see, something about wasteland vs. warmth/family, but it’s often absent of main clips. It’s nowhere near as coherent as it could be. 

- all of this builds up to the main problem for me, of the season. which is, i didn’t really get into Robbe and Sander’s relationship. Or their individual arcs for that matter. When it comes to Robbe, I guess he just isn’t my type of character. I feel like he is missing the fire of an Isak. A lot of the time he just felt too passive, like he let other characters make his decisions. I was waiting for him to stand up for himself more than he did. And there are too many scenes of another character doing his coming out for him. And then Sander ; I have to say I don’t understand all the love his character gets. Maybe because that’s because he sort of gives me Dutch fuckboi vibes...but there were several times he just came accross as a flat out asshole. I found him intriguing in his intro clip, chaotic and charming, but that never really went where i expected it to. i didn’t get his passion, what drew him to art. the symbolism around his character - basically Bowie, and drawing Robbe, and Chernobyl (which is a bit tasteless imho, turning a tragedy like that into a cutesy romantic thing), feels ...disjointed, and shallow to me. Like I never really got into it. And maybe some people did and noticed deeper links but to me, I got stuck at the surface. I saw a lot of interesting theories with what was going on with him but in the end they just copied OG. And I’m sad to say, but he ended up feeling like a manic pixie dream boy cliché to me, and i just didn’t understand what drew them to each other so strongly. Yes, Robbe is caring and Sander is in need of care, but that feels like a very reductive reproduction of OG. Beyond that...i don’t know. Certain complexities of the OG i loved  just...were sanded away, like Isak being ignorant about MI and learning compassion. This just...didn’t feel like it had the same depth, and often felt like soapy teenage drama, leaning too hard and too lazily on the actors’ chemistry. i like my romances wordy and solidly enmeshed in character development, and this was not it. It never felt like they had a real conversation about things, esp after the drama. 

- i think this is the first remake that made me actually angry for reasons not related to problematic cast shit, and so i’m trying to analyze that emotion. for me it comes down to too much drama, too heavy handed. Too much of the boy squad being shitty to Robbe, too much Noor, too much filler clips without any deeper meaning, too much things distracting from getting to know the main characters and going into their issues in depth. They changed stuff, but didn’t have the guts to actually follow through. They broke the mold but only in ways that ended up feeling shallow and unconsequential. Like I would have loved seeing Robbe go to therapy ! see his mom ! Zoe and Robbe go to the police together ! Sander have a complicated home situation ! or doing a Bowie related art installation to express his feelings of alienation ! seeing more of the underground graffiti scene ! or just...something, idk. And them also removing the faith-related themes also felt disappointing. and the ohn clip taking place in the place where sander draws feels very....basic to me, even if it was pretty. very ‘oh he’s an artist, here is his safe place’....hm, okay. I didn’t like that they made Britt into such a villain, I didn’t like how the boy squad showed no care for Robbe whatsoever for weeks until the plot said it was time for them to be redeemed in a way that felt too jarring, and I didn’t like that they made Moyo so horrible but redeemed him so easily. I actually thought they would show that it’s okay to separate yourself from friends who are that bigoted, because it just shows they are not willing to care for people. And him suddenly saying those sweet and mature things felt too out of characters and a ahah ‘gotcha’ rather than depth . I didn’t like that Robbe, too, was made so virulent by his internalized homophobia but got over it so quickly. I think what disappointed me most, in the end, was that I kept picking up potential and the show kept doing absolutely nothing with it, or confirming my fears, and it made me feel stupid and out of tune with whatever they were doing. And it’s, to me, symptomatic in modern storytelling of a trend to privilege shocks and twists over inner coherence and build up. And it makes for...Very underwhelming stuff, in the end. 

- all in all, i think this remake illustrates why s3 of OG is not as easy to remake as it sounds. it’s very intricate machinery, with a pitch perfect rhythm (and an extremely passionate nitpicky fanbase lmao). and if you don’t get all the parts of why it’s so great, you’re going to lose a lot of it. (and all the remakes ended losing up stuff in translation ; more or less compensated by inventivity and charm of their own.) so many mainstream press articles praise the real time/social media format and the ‘real talk about teen issues’ which, yeah, is part of the success, but doesn’t explain the devotion on its own. there’s the way the story uses real time to build up a storytelling rythm that feels organic and makes sense as if it was part of the lives of the viewer. There’s foreshadowing and aftershocks. Wtfock often feels like they wrote the clip numbers on darts and randomly threw them at a week planner. If an episode of a regular series ends on a cliffhanger, we can be thrilled and frustrated and put it aside for next week. but if you end an episode with a character shown to be suicidal, or you don’t show them being okay after a beating, for hours or days, that’s the emotion you leave your viewers with, because skam is a continuous experience. and remakes who pile on drama moments without respite (looking at you too skamfr s4) don’t get how tiring and disengaging this can be, in this format. skam worked so well because of how benevolent it was, on the whole. and also, cheeky, with that ‘don’t take it too seriously’ deflating humor. grumpy isak in ‘hate me now’ mode getting bumped into. this lightness and comedy often feels missing here. also my god the social media is absolutely terrible. plus...there is too much filler. honestly, them having more time, on the whole...ended up being a bad thing. Plus Wtfock feels like it has so much more unadressed plot points, like...why did Sander change his mind exactly and kiss Britt again ? How did Robbe’s mom react ? Who did the attack ? What is happening w Senne now ? etc. And it feels like they just missed the fact that OG, however subtly, did adress those things. 

- now, don’t get me wrong, i’m happy it’s popular in Belgium. On the whole it’s still a beautiful story of love and acceptance. and that people found something in it that spoke to them. but as a remake, it’s probably one of the most disappointing yet, to me. and i sort of...don’t get the hype. and i don’t want to be too ‘oh cute boys kissing’ cynical about it. but i think this illustrates why in the end, this is also very subjective. there are probably things i missed because i didn’t feel the need to examine it in depth or do the extra emotional work that comes with being a devoted fan of something. and some of their choices made me angry, and i’m not forgiving when it comes to these things. i still wish them success for s4 and whatever else, but i don’t think i will watch live, at least unless it gets really rave reviews about their treatment of Yasmina’s season. i mean they got s2 right, who knows? 

[funkymbtifiction]

When you’re trying to type someone, what do you do when they seem to use two conflicting functions (i.e. two that can’t be in the same stack)? My biggest issues with typing myself has been strongly identifying with both Fi and Ti.

I’ve been pretty sure I’m an INFP (as sure as my Ne lets me be…), but when I tell people who know me that, they’re sometimes surprised that I’m not a T. It’s very natural for me to identify logical inconsistencies and I’m always seeking to understand why things are the way they are so I love to analyze things. I definitely annoy people at times by pointing out conflicts in their thinking – but it also doesn’t really bother me if someone is being illogical as long as they’re making a choice that works for them and doesn’t hurt anyone else. I think it’s pretty delightful when people can go against conventional logic to embrace their own truth – if it makes them happy. But personally, I’m on the hunt for unifying theories of the world and humanity so that I can live my best life and feel comfortable with the world.

Sometimes I feel like I use Fi and Ti together. For example, I might have a belief/value I hold strongly, say – that people are not ‘good’ or ‘bad.’ But in looking at the world I can see there are logical conflicts with this belief, such as the fact that there are many people who do very hurtful things to others. In order to reconcile this, I become obsessed with collecting as much information and understanding as I can about how both of these things can be true (researching criminals, psychology, moral philosophy, etc.) until I come to new version of my belief that feels more complete or ‘right’ – for example, that people aren’t born good or bad, but that many factors can influence our behavior and make it more likely that some people will do hurtful things.

But what function is this? In my head I feel like I’m ping-ponging between ‘does this feel right? Can I live with this?’ and ‘does it make sense? Does it work with what else I know?’ until I hit some sort of equilibrium and can rest. I also know my Ne is at work in there too, so maybe it’s a combination of Fi/Te and Ne that can look like Ti? Or Ti/Fe + Ne that looks like Fi because I’m mostly interested in human behavior versus things (like – I could care less about how a computer works but I’ve always been fascinated with psychology/neuroscience)?

Hope this isn’t too close to a ‘type me’ – but I’m sure it comes up with other functions too. What do you do if a character is showing evidence of two functions (like Se and Si for example) that in theory shouldn’t ‘go together’ ?

Thanks!

You are certainly an NFP. Nothing about this is actual Ti, but it is very much Ne and Fi and Te. (I talk to them a lot, and their overall tone, focus, and how they say things is very different -- you can “tell” their low Fe-ness / confusion over ethics and emotions just from routine conversations with them.) Being interested in people and what makes them tick is a feeler focus, because you are focusing on people’s emotions, their motivating factors, and what drives them in a personalized way -- it interests you, it draws you in, and it excites your Fi. Your Fi is healthy, so it recognizes its own moral boundaries but also the subjectivity of them, so it looks to see what others believe through Ne -- which wants as broad of an understanding of everything as possible. Ne also notices inconsistencies in people’s thinking, since it grasps the gist of situations and individuals very quickly and keeps an eye out for contradictions. You’re also using Ne to attempt to figure out what makes people different, and to excuse the brutal realities of life (that not everyone lives up to a higher standard). Te logic can be “brutal” but effective -- it is focused on accomplishment and facts, so it comes across as very “thinkery” when used. Intuitives in general, because they think and over-think everything so much, come across to others as more logical and detached than they may actually be, since they put so much focus and effort into their broad conclusions.

As to the rest of your ask, if I see a character displaying both functions (or, as is more often the case, none that are very “strong”) then I go with the answer that requires the least amount of explanation. Sometimes I will get partway through writing up a profile and draw a blank, which makes me realize I chose the wrong axis. I switch over to a different one, start writing, and can find the evidence I need to flesh it out. It also helps to be familiar with, and understand, what makes each axis “tick.” Something as simple as “hands-on” vs “leaps to conclusions” can be helpful (Se vs Ne).

- ENFP Mod

[thephantomporg84]

[REDACTED] be complaining reg. the reactions of having "placed the cultist island Fortuna off the coast of Florida" while having the gall of "It’s the story & the way it’s told that should fucking matter" & "Who cares? It’s fictional geography, you idiots." Feels a bit like failing World-Building 101. I mean, Red Grave based on London would also be a callback to Dante's early concept of being a Brit.

Someone already sent me the whole post of hers that I’m pretty sure you’re referring to lmao. I’m in a particularly cunty but pleasant mood rn, and analysis is kind of my thing, so lets’s break it down, shall we?

Maybe someone can send this her way and… learn that tiny little brain of hers a thing. 😉

It’s fictional geography called world building, you idiots Karen after the cut:

‘I love how a number of shitheels have screeched amongst themselves on this hellsite about how I had placed the cultist island Fortuna off the coast of Florida or somewhere around the Gulf US states (re: the fanfic & project link in my header), whining that it should’ve been in Europe, namely Italy.’

An admission to stalking profiles is not exactly the best way to start a self-righteous rant or advertise your… magnum opus, but go off, I guess.

‘Not only that, but they whined about “plotholes and inconsistencies” without elaborating on what the latter are. The asshole who made the rant was annoyed when I used a poem as a spell in the story (“if I heard that, I’d turn off my PS4.”), but I’m sure she didn’t bitch about the cutscene before the last Agnus boss fight in DMC4.’

Like the movie The Room (2003), it’s just easier to say “all of it” is bad because “all of it” contains plotholes and is inconsistent in tone, has terrible half-baked ideas and plot threads that remain unresolved and/or do nothing to further the plot, is rife with poor + inconsistent characterization, has a lack of any knowledge how the medium it exists in is made, and in general makes me wonder how much pottery enamel you’ve been huffing to think any of this was a good idea. Howeverrrr, in contrast to you, Tommy Wiseau is kind of odd and weirdly charming both in general and about his terrible movie — he’s found glory and success in its terribleness. You, in contrast, remain a miserable cunt with delusions of grandeur.

Dante and Agnus’ Shakespeare bit is actually a pretty well known trope called Ham-to-Ham Combat. Dante and Agnus are both ridiculous Large Hams in DMC4, and when two Large Hams meet, in general, they are likely gonna try to ‘out-over dramatic’ each other. This can lead to a scene becoming either really funny or really corny (or both) really fast. If things go too far — and they do, in this case — the scene can become a Hormel Event Horizon.

‘…but they LOVE the plotholes & inconsistencies if Capcom makes the latter, and writes a terrible story! And Crapcom’s canon for DMC is as straight as a paperclip or a dog’s hind leg. Hypocritical pricks.’

Subjective opinion is not, and never will be, objective fact. People are, as of when I checked again in the last ~5 minutes or so, absolutely able to enjoy whatever media they want regardless of what the general consensus on the quality of that media is.

As an example, I enjoy The Room (2003) despite its terribleness and it never fails to make me laugh, while your magnum opus makes me want to huff pottery enamel so the pain will stop despite you thinking it is the work of an idiot savant.

‘They were also mad that I wrote Dante as a wiseguy who is a little more low-key about it due to the circumstances— instead of being a pathetic manchild airhead that tries too hard.’

You didn’t write Dante.

You wrote Reboot!Donte — a fucking terribly out of character version of him, at that.

‘I was primarily concerned about moving the story along. I didn’t care about where a fictional island is supposed to go.’

You literally had one (1) job, Karen.

‘…Meanwhile, not a single character in DMC4 had an Italian accent, so uh, why should I give a flying fuck where I put it?’

Haven’t you been like… shitting on the DMC staff… for terrible writing… this enti— You know what? You’re obvs way too dumb to notice that contradiction, so I’ll let it slide.

Just… a word of advice, if I may? Don’t ever watch dub TV shows. That last brain cell would fuckin’ just burst all over your carpet.

(Actually, don’t watch subtitled shows either. An extremely popular anime that was set in Italy just wrapped and all the characters — le gasp! — spoke fucking Japanese. You would shit.)

‘I wasn’t paid to write any of what I wrote, but be my guest & send a PM if you want to throw money at me. By all means, do that.’

Oh, thank fuck, because they would have been ripped off, big time.

[ btw, you sound p. jealous of people that write/do creative work/commissions for ko-fi/payment tho. Not a good look tbbh. If it’s any consolation, though, I don’t get paid for making fun of you and/or analyzing your dumb bullshit, either. :( ]

‘The pricks at Capcom didn’t even bother giving us a proper DMC4 and it was a half-assed game, with the latter half being hasty filler material. The “special edition” they coughed up in 2015 was just glorified overpriced DLC.’

Ya know, you gotta be pretty far up your own ass to think this much of your opinion. And I’m saying this as a person that’s pretty far up her own ass like 85% of the time.

‘And another thing, Redgrave City in DMC5 seems to be in England, yet no survivors speak with English accents or slang/dialects.’

Pretty sure no survivors had speaking roles.

If you played the game you’d know this.

‘Meanwhile, Dante and Vergil had lived there when they were kids (until age 8), but they both have ordinary American or Canadian accents. Furthermore, how did the twins make it to the USA or Canada? According to the little booklet in the DMC1 game case, Dante’s office is in modern America.’

You know that invoking the imagery of a specific place without naming your location is normal and standard practice, right? Overwatch even does this (For Ex: Byōdō-in (平等院), Uji, Kyoto Prefecture, Japan is the inspiration for Hanamura, Château de Duingt, Duingt, France for Château Guillard, etc.)

Furthermore, you know the original DMC was a rejected first draft of Resident Evil 4, right? This is what retcon is for. You at least know what retcon is, right?

‘…That information isn’t very important, but I’m bringing it up to illustrate a point that being a fucking pedant about geography in a fantasy game is idiotic, even if the setting is akin to modern Earth.’

So is freaking the fuck out and sending death threats over a fantasy game but you didn’t let that stop you either lmfao.

It’s actually super important to establish your scenery and the way your world operates, especially in a written work in which readers are dependent on your vision and your descriptions, and if you were a decent writer, you’d know this.

‘It’s the story & the way it’s told that should fucking matter.’

YOU HAD ONE (1) JOB, KAREN.

‘What US states are the Arklay Mountains located in?’

General description puts them in the U.S. Midwest. Raccoon City itself is stated to have a population of ~100,000 at the time of outbreak, and the only city in the Midwest that matches that population in 1998 is Springfield, Missouri, with a pop. of ~110,000.

Springfield is on the Springfield Plateau of the Ozarks region of SW Missouri. So they’re part of the Ozark Mountains.

This all took less than ~3 minutes to google, btw.

‘Where is “Zanzibar Land?”’

I actually just wrote a comprehensive answer to an ask a few weeks ago about this. It’s actually stated to be in Tselinoyarsk (Целиноярск), the (fictional) area of the former USSR in which Big Boss carried out the Virtuous Mission/Operation Snake Eater in 1964. Tselinoyarsk itself is heavily implied to consist of parts of Kyrgyzstan and/or Tajikistan. If you played MGS3 you’d know how important the setting and the varied environments/climates are to the game mechan-

oh yeah wait you believe in segregation of story and gameplay mechanics. I forget you’re completely tone deaf sometimes lmao.

How far is ‘Salem’s Lot or Derry from Bangor? Who cares?’

Stephen King does, quite a bit. He even has a map on his website of ‘his’ fictional version of Maine:

My disappointment is immeasurable, Karen.

[misscrawfords]

rorotheslytherclaw replied to your post: I think one of the things that really bugs me...

Omg her telling a random stranger everything frustrated me so much too! This woman could tell literally anyone and Georgiana would be disgraced I just read a fanfic where the main characters were kidnapped and it was all “noone can find out or she will be ruined!” Like how can a fanfic writer get this better than someone who writes for major tv networks…Also I agree about the character flaws, she does seem to become whatever the plot requires her to be. They can’t decide whether she’s a Catherine Moorland or an Elizabeth Bennet… i mean im still gonna watch it tho its hot trash and i enjoy but come on, I’ve read fanfics with better character consistency.

Fanfic writers very frequently get things better than fully paid, well-known professional writers... It’s infuriating!

I don’t think she’s half of Catherine or Elizabeth because she has no consistency. And tbh I wouldn’t care about any of it but her own lack of awareness of literally anything about the world she lives in means I can’t even respect her as a character any more. Catherine was naive about some things but she knew how to be polite and behave at a ball! In fact, it was her native understanding of what was appropriate and what was not that stood her in good stead when other people (the Thorpes) actually behaved badly. If Charlotte is like anyone, it’s Marianne Dashwood. Well-meaning but highly inappropriate in public places.

flibbertigiblet:

have to say I agree with you, OP. Naivety is one thing, but the utter foolishness of running away to London(!!!) with no money or contacts made me groan in disbelief. Then the word vomit to Lady Susan at the party happened, and no matter how sympathetic a character they intend Susan to be, I had to cringe, once again, at Charlotte's utter lack of discretion.

I’ve seen a lot of people saying how relatable Charlotte is for this and I get the word vomit to a stranger but it’s just so psychologically unrealistic that she would drop Sidney’s full name into it at a party to which he’s attending and this woman might know him! She might be his long lost love, Eliza! (I really wanted that to happen.) She might be his childhood BFF! His cousin! Like, really? If I have complicated feelings for a guy and I desperately need to talk about it, I don’t tell everyone who I mean! It just makes it soooo obvious it was not written by anyone who knows anything about female psychology! And I can’t believe she just ruined Georgiana’s reputation. “Oh yeah my friend Georgiana Lambe, you know her? She just got abducted!” Like, whoops, there go Georgiana’s chances in one fell swoop. Silly, silly Charlotte. But of course there are never any consequences for actions in this show.

lynsunrise:

Maybe they don't see so much real harm in Charlotte telling Mrs Susan everything because Mrs Susan either is a perfect stranger and has no interest in ruining someone's reputation or that she is to play a bigger role in everything, or she's genuinely kind and because of Charlotte's openness she feels that it's forgivable for such a spirited young woman. Running to London without money. I agree, it's absolutely crazy. But I can understand that impulse though.😘😘😘

She is clever but too hasty in judgment, she will correct that. Now that she finally understood the nature of her feelings, the source of her anger and anxiety, basically, that's she understood she's in love, it will open her eyes. And she will see better where she belongs. Till now she could not realize that she was challenging herself in challenging  others. But the picture of the old vision crumbled, and suffering can erase the prejudice and her illusions and teach her where she really belongs.

I think that she was so frustrated at the beginning of the episode because of her prejudice, it's so blind, that prejudice. And following it she acted too hastily and was so harsh. Ignorance was present, she was deaf to Sidney, and then everything turned out to be different. Sidney is the man that knows what is to love, suffer, really save someone. Everything's upside down. And it's more or less okay that she at first rejects that invitation... I think that she will analyze everything and everything will be fine💕💕💕Sorry for being so talkative 😙😅

Never apologise for being enthusiastic! I hope you are right in your evaluation of Charlotte’s character development here. Perhaps she has to go backwards to go forwards. I guess my main problem is with the inconsistent world building around her, because she is not facing any consequences - she doesn’t seem to realise how inappropriate some of the things she does are, though I grant you she does seem to realise some of them. And nobody around her is calling her out on them. She’s a complete and utter liability to the Parkers and I don’t really know why they don’t send her back to Willingden - apart from the fact that they can’t because she’s the heroine. But that’s a bad reason within the text.  *shrug* I guess we’ll see, but I’ve lost a lot of respect for the writing this episode. A lot.

kitten1618x:

^^ I find my views align with this, as well. I’m willing to bet that Lady Susan will be the one to rally the troops to save the day and be the one to help put Sanditon on the map...

Perhaps? I mean, she’s just a random stranger who finds Charlotte sympathetic and amusing instead of way out of order so I don’t know where she’s going to go.

lucyhoneychurches:

You're right. Even at the beginning I thought Charlotte was at the very least pragmatic but her lack of knowledge about the ways of society is both unconvincing and doing an injustice to her as a character

It’s the lack of social knowledge that bothers me. Like, in a way I can accept it in Sanditon because that place is frankly a backwater (no matter what Tom says) but in London there is no way in hell anyone’s going to be charmed by Charlotte on any level. It’s completely unbelievable.

mihrunnisasultans:

Mess, mess. And I thought the show had found its footing, even as simply entertaining, campy playing with tropes and cliches. Plus, I'm really hating Clara's characterisation at this point.

Yes, this! I genuinely enjoyed and was excited about episodes 4 & 5. I’ve been writing fanfiction! But this episode has really soured my enjoyment. The more I think about it, the more annoyed I become. I even went on a massive rant about it on Facebook! And that’s even before we get to Edward and Clara having sex on a cold stone floor with a snake mosaic...

[nadziejastar]

Honestly, it feels like they came up with the idea of Subject X to extend the story of the Radiant Garden crew because otherwise KH3 would be the perfect place to end their story. She wasn't just a test subject, she was apparently a central figure in the experiments. When she inevitably returns in KH4 she'll drag Ansem, the apprentices, and the boys back into relevance even if they have no other reason to get involved

I suspect you’re right regarding the future. I am sure that she’ll be vital to KH4, and she’ll be heavily involved in Lea and Isa’s story in the future. She’s involved in a large human experimentation plot, and Lea and Isa also having that backstory would be seen as redundant.

None of this will be directed at you anon, just my general opinion on the current state of the story and characters.I’m going to rant a bit about the direction things seem to be going to get it off my chest. Basically, I resent how she took Saix’s backstory and derailed his entire character arc. And I don’t think any of them even needed her to have a role in the future of the story. Ansem the Wise still has a ton of potential. Lea is a full-fledged Keyblade wielder, and Isa could easily be one too. Whatever experiments she was involved in are going to be poorly retconned into the Xehanort Saga and will probably overwrite the mind control experiments that were originally mentioned. “Plot twist: There were no mind control experiments! It was really about learning the secrets of time-travel!” I’m not really excited to learn more, to be honest. 

I didn’t play Union X. I tried to, but I didn’t like the gameplay. I have read the story summary online and watched Back Cover. But I have no attachment to Skuld or any of the other original characters from that game. I didn’t play KH3 to learn about them. I don’t care about them. I wanted closure on the characters from this arc. The arc that’s been building up over the last decade. I was attached to Lea and Isa and all the others. And to have it suddenly be all about this new girl and Keyblade wielders of yore out of nowhere…well, it felt like a slap in the face as a long-time fan.

As for Isa’s character: If KH3 is the precedent for how he is to be portrayed going forward, I’m not very excited for the future. It doesn’t sound like Nomura is either.

–There are several Organisation members whose original names are still unknown. Will we have a chance to learn them someday, or to find out about the scar on Isa’s face?

Nomura: If there is a sequel, then that chance may come. But in my heart right now my desire is a blank page.

To be honest, I don’t even know how much blame I can attribute to Nomura personally. I know he wanted to make BBS Volume 2 and was very disappointed it was cancelled. I highly doubt he’s happy with the many, many revisions to the story after it got canned. I suspect his lack of interest in explaining Isa’s scar is due to the fact that he already had a great story all planned out and it was not able to be realized due to factors outside of his control. The Foreteller arc is an opportunity to step away from the butchered Xehanort Saga plot and start over with a blank slate. Just like Verum Rex seems like his attempt at restarting the butchered Versus XIII project with a blank slate.That’s my personal opinion. If it’s true, I can hardly blame him. 

As for Lea and Isa’s relationship, here is my honest take: KH3 took a very close and emotionally intimate former relationship between two boys (to me it even seemed romantic in nature) and made it into a caricature of a “dudebro” relationship. And like clockwork, it was all about a girl now. If I’m being perfectly honest, it felt like whoever was writing the Lea/Isa scenes was thinking “no homo, no homo” the entire time. Like they were terrified to depict even the slightest bit of genuine intimacy between these two male characters. I mean really, howcliché to attribute all of Saix’s villainy and the breakdown of his closest friendship… to a single girl that he barely knew. Completely deflecting away from the relationship they had with each other. A relationship history that spanned multiple games now revolves around a character who was never even mentioned before, let alone seen on-screen.

By his own description, he was not close to this girl. He spoke a handful of times to an imprisoned, traumatized amnesiac girl, in hushed whispers. He couldn’t have known her that well. She had amnesia. Did he even know her name? Did SHE even know her name? Didn’t sound like it based on the reports. He said they spoke in the shadows and it was too dim to make out her features. Did he know what she looked like? Again, this was not a childhood friend or anything. After a while, he wasn’t sure if she even existed. I seriously could not wrap my head around how ridiculous this whole concept was. It felt like a joke.

In 358/2 Days, Axel spent the entire game angsting over the loss of his close relationship with Isa. In KH3D, the first thing he does is look for him, and he’s very visibly upset when he finds out he’s still with Organization XIII. Then in KH3, he doesn’t mention him at all. It’s only Roxas this, Roxas that. Lea only remembers Isa exists when he randomly shows up in Twilight Town. I’m like, where did THIS come from? I was laughing hysterically when Saix asked for ice cream. It was the most out-of-character thing I’d ever seen. Axel didn’t even seem phased by him being so friendly all of a sudden, which was also very strange. I would have expected a stronger reaction, but he seemed more annoyed by his presence than anything. Even his promise to bring him home felt more like an afterthought than a priority. “I going to get my precious ROXAS back! Oh, well, I guess I’ll bring you back too, Isa. I mean, as long as you’re here…why not?”

Lea: Would you get lost? I’ll clobber you tomorrow.

Saix: Hmph. I expect no less.

I really disliked how Saix’s personality was portrayed in KH3. In my opinion, Isa’s entire redemption hinged on the fact that he was Xehanort’d. Saix was THE main villain in 358/2 Days. He was basically Xemnas-lite, only far more of an active presence than Xemnas himself was in that game. He was constantly antagonizing Roxas, Xion and Axel. By writing the story so that he was in control of himself the whole time, it sent the message that Saix’s personality is Isa’s true personality as well. And I just don’t think that works. At all. It’s inconsistent with the story, and it’s honestly insulting to Isa’s character. There was SO much evidence that Isa was not in control of himself prior to KH3.

It also left a very poor taste in my mouth because Isa was implied to be an innocent victim of cruel human experimentation, who was being controlled like a puppet by an evil madman. That is horrific abuse to a 15 year-old child. And the heartwarming resolution to his story is watching his best friend “clobber” him? Really? All he needs is someone to beat some sense into him? And keep in mind, this is supposed to be a battle to bring about the apocalypse. Why does the dialogue sound more like a pissing contest between two high school boys that are planning to have a fistfight in the parking lot after school?

Saix: I was jealous.

Lea: You admit it.

Saix: Well, if I make it back…you won’t get it out of me a second time.

Isa doesn’t even get a good redemption scene. He isn’t allowed to show any emotion whatsoever. He actually berates Lea for showing emotion…FOR HIM. And what’s Lea’s opinion after Isa is defeated? He’s disgusted that he LET Xehanort “reduce him to this.” It’d be like if Ven or Aqua were disgusted at Terra for having the audacity to get possessed. But no, apparently Saix was just putting on an “act” the whole time. All of his sociopathy was just an act of macho bravado to hide his jealousy and wounded ego. Sheesh, that’s supposed to make him more sympathetic? And he’s STILL a jerk even when he apologizes. There really was no way to make Saix into a “redeemed good guy”. I mean, he was a Xehanort clone, for Christ’s sake. As far as I’m concerned, the X-shaped scar never getting explained is just symbolic of the fact that the real Isa is still dead.

If it had just been shown that he was a victim of mind control, he wouldn’t have even NEEDED a redemption. He’d just… go back to being Isa, who was always good in the first place. I mean, you don’t need to redeem Xemnas to redeem Terra. Sure, it’s his body, but how stupid would it have been to have Xemnas give a half-hearted apology, then go back home with Aqua and Ven? The story could call him “Terra” all they want. But that’s still not Terra; that’s Xehanort. No, they actually needed to bring Terra back to have a truly happy ending for the trio.

That’s how I feel about Isa. KH3 can call him “Isa” all they want, but all I saw was a watered-down, slightly less douchey version of Saix masquerading as Isa. I wont go into too much detail right now because I have a huge meta almost finished (I hope to have it posted soon) analyzing Isa’s weapons and how they paint a very detailed picture of his (original) personality. And by every indication…Isa’s personality was very feminine, empathetic, and emotional. He’s basically the archetypal Yin; the Moon goddess. And that’s definitely closer to how I interpreted his personality based on BbS. I can’t see him saying ANY of the dialogue he had in KH3.

[rabbitindisguise]

oooo my phone died, killing the possibility of me doing my Daily Assigned Task (I only have one because aside from staying afloat with food and stuff that’s all my brain can cognitively handle. Yes, I also do this doing the school year. Yes, I know that sounds absolutely bonkers) right this moment so while I have my boredom captive in this textpost, let’s ruminate over the nature of humanity some more ignore me I’m talking to myself 

it is also very extremely weird and by “very” I mean “not at all” and “extremely” I mean “minimally, if anything, actually not super weird in any of the senses of the word” and weird still just means weird because otherwise the previous things I just said would no longer be accurate BUT

let’s just say it’s totally expected 

that people find These Weird Things That I Do generally, absolutely fascinating in fiction. Like, my original works for example are steeped in weirdness. Rolling with abnormalities. Boiling with oddity. And so on. And I don’t pull this out of my ass! Oh no. This is all like . . . gosh, inspired stuff. From things I saw and liked and felt reflected my very soul in fiction. 

But they’re totally hated in meatspace 

I wonder 

Anyway, it’s also really strange to see posts about this Weird Things That People Do on tumblr and to read people complimenting them and to feel a warm glow of pleasant optimism about the state of humanity, and hear the very same audience of tumblr people absolutely go nuts over the strangest bullshit I have ever seen or heard or conceived of in my entire life. Like I get weirdly tense and fraught subjects. I get really tense and pissy if someone headcanons a character as binary trans when I headcanon them as non-binary when I’m a nb trans it literally doesn’t matter aside from my emotional attachment to the concept. I’m not proud of it! But I get it, is my point. I understand. It makes sense to me. 

But what just doesn’t quite click, doesn’t snap into the convoluted logic of my brain meats, is HOW exactly SO MANY people have the same weird gripes of this obscure stuff that should be totally okay if people are accepting the activist principles of ableism as nonsense and weirdness not being bad. Many others who are probably smart have said it is simply, nay, merely hypocrisy and I’ve met a human or two in my time alive, I can see the potential for that sort of thing to happen. However, considering that Herd Mentality is what it is, I don’t think it’s possible that the plague is actually “being widely inconsistent in the execution of your beliefs to fit in to society” when that’s so stigmatized but actually that being angry about the same things is good for some reason. 

This is important! It’s important because Reasons. Because if you say “hypocrite!” when there’s a fire, I don’t think anyone will understand or listen to the concern. If the answer is anything but hypocrisy, talking about it generally pisses people off and makes them yell at you- a near identical response of an actual hypocrite, confusing everyone further. So I don’t think it’s unfair to talk about hypocrisy, of course not, there is nothing I enjoy more than finding logical inconsistencies because it means the world can be improved etc etc that’s not the problem. The problem is most definitely that if the problem isn’t even hypocrisy than the solution isn’t the solution to hypocrisy.   

If my theory is right, or semi-right, or at least not wrong, then approaching a bunch of people yelling about a thing to encourage others to yell in tandem is not going to be won by yelling something opposing to that, especially if it makes them angrier and also makes them feel wronged. Instead, calmly being like “nah, dude, I don’t feel the same way, but it’s chill” is way better. Not only because it makes them look ridiculous for having an out of proportion reaction to someone being weird in public (the horror, whatever shall we do about ~being weird~ and doing it ~in public~) but there’s no defensive position to get on. There is no “debate tactics” to use. There’s absolutely not a disagreement about ableism or politics or intersectionality. Rather, it uplifts a contrary option that is confident and secure and this is exactly the same rhetorical device that Centrists or whatever they’re called, use all the damn time. People have talked At Length about jeez, idk, it being exhausting to constantly talk to a person that’s not as invested and doesn’t see it as the Serious Issue It Is- but from the perspective of when they’re actually talking about serious issues, rather than complaining that someone referenced a tumblr meme in public or plays mc and oh, no, how cringey 

This is of course blatant emotional manipulation but as the fairness complaint generally goes, they did it first. Multiple people weighing in on a topic with angry voices telling someone not to do something doesn’t work because they have secret actual good reasons and that shines through, it’s because there’s a number of angry people and they’re trying to subdue someone’s Weird with force. Emotional force, but there’s nothing about consent involved in this exchange. No personal boundaries. Shame is a mode of control. Power, even. Which is why I hate those second hand embarrassment fics and avoid them like the plague because it’s icky to me and makes me feel gross and I guess one of my personal triggers is someone feeling bad for doing something Shameful in public 

Which brings me to Weird Humanity Musings part II (III? I can’t do math) that have taken a weird non-activist and highly personal turn for the worst: 

I don’t think people notice how often emotional manipulation plays a part in subtle power plays that go on in human interactions every day. Humanity made dominance ffs. Humans are the ones that get upset and feel challenged with eye contact- not dogs. Dogs use sustained eye contact all the time for a bunch of reasons. Humans too. But it’s humans that recontextualized that behavior as exclusively dominance, a wholly human concept, and, whatever I’m not going to spend too much time on this because I don’t actually particularly care about it. But the point is actually just that humans went out of their way to create this thing, and it plays a part in social interactions. Mothers and daughters and siblings and friends all have scripts of code that basically go for the emotional center of the other person to get them to obey. Most people can’t recognize it because society has that whole “if everyone does it THIS must be the baseline of normal” be as well All Know, normal doesn’t even exist so that reaction is bullshit before it’s even analyzed in any meaningful sense. 

Example time because I highly doubt I can just say that off the cuff and actually get people to follow that train of thought to completion (unfortunately, I’d rather not have to write this post at all because it means one less problem in the world and that’s a good thing). 

Anytime someone says “I’m your mother!” it’s to reinforce the authority of the child that this person probably have financial, social, physical (such a medical) and emotional control over for almost two decades of their life, or however much it actually was. This is often used to make the child of the mother Do Something, like maybe they’re questioning her judgement or smth I don’t know I get this one a lot and it’s lost all meaning to me by now 

Whenever someone says “thank you” it generally plays into the social script where they do the whole dance of “I got this service from you, I say thanks, you say you’re welcome.” This works as a subtle manipulation (not necessarily negative! these examples aren’t Get Mad and Force Conformity examples, just How It Works examples) when someone doesn’t feel like they’ve done something for someone else, so saying “thanks” shows appreciation for the effort and can force an acknowledgement of that effort by expecting a “your welcome” or “no problem” from the other person. This gets shitty and creepy when someone doesn’t take silence aka “I’m not doing the dance because I don’t agree” to a degree where they’re like “oh? are you not going to say you’re welcome?” aka are you gonna be a conceited shithead that thinks they’re better than saying “you’re welcome” the most common social nicety that supposedly always costs nothing? Which does nothing to make the person to feel better and everything to leverage the situation and make them preform social interaction for the other person’s amusement. 

“Good morning” is another example. It doesn’t actually matter if the morning is good or not, but it establishes rapport and focuses on the positives- one of those things called “small talk.” (Never heard of her.) This is something someone can actually observe better at the cultural level- someone says “good morning” in english, in another language they say something else. Both show ideological underlying beliefs of the culture Because That’s How Culture And Language Work because it’s a sneaky not-liar that can’t hide its true feelings about things. 

I’m not actually all that good with the line between “what is acceptable emotional manipulation in a social context when the fundamentals of the english language rely on subtle power exchange to function [and holy shit would some people hate knowing That] and the unacceptable abusive emotional manipulation” and I generally err on the side of stuff that people seem to be explicitly asking for and prompting but I don’t always succeed and I don’t know that I’m doing the best method but that’s the most chaotic good thing I could come up with  

But it still remains that calling things emotional manipulation is both true and a misnomer because in some ways, they’re necessary to exist in society without being considered a jackass (as a self proclaimed “I was called a jackass using many different words that all basically mean jackass” that mostly doesn’t participate in these social nicety dances because I don’t like my brain yelling at me that I’m doing the same bullshit I hated as a Youth and I don’t like disappointing myself) and in others, they’re totally unneeded and artlessly cruel. I mean, heck, going through this internal debate every time someone says “good morning?” Who does that? (I do. This is why people think I’m a dumbass lmao. Jokes on them unfortunately,) 

Regardless of what people actually DO about it though, these things are the underlying mechanics of how emotional manipulation works. It’s a concoction of societal expectations, situational contexts, personal histories, selective pressures, and a bunch of other things in smaller amounts. Most of the time it’s “normal” social stuff but with a ton of exaggerated features (I almost used my own handle from a different Social Media and that my friends is having a lot of issues and self hatred due to abuse! and also anxieties over becoming abusive ofc but who doesn’t have those these days). Which is why I think it’s so important that it’s expansively defined so much because otherwise people are really thickheaded about emotional abuse specifically. They think it’s impossible to do in some cases and in others, think it’s exclusively the realm of insults and humiliation. 

Those exaggerate features are even harder to spot if someone doesn’t even recognize the interpersonal dynamics of language in the first place. It all just becomes nonsensical and no one can tell what came from where or what this particular question is abusive and not this other one. The logic gets poked with holes easier and abuse survivors get dismissed. 

Of course, expanding that definition to reshape thinking might just go along the same direction as representation, where even alluding to the truly abusive mechanics of actual, you know, emotional abuse, is seen as abusive. Everything, literally, would become problematic. There could be callout posts about any human interaction in any context with anyone ever. I’m confident in holding myself to a higher standard than the rest of society but I Cannot overstate that being bullshit to the nth degree that I couldn’t even put up with myself telling myself to keep to it as a standard. It just doesn’t work. I’ve tried it. That way lies the nonsense form of madness as in the non-nd kind. That, along with purity culture and censorship and doxxing and death threats and so on: I don’t fully want to release this theory out into the world in practice because I’m afraid society will just use it as fodder to be cruel to people but I’m also equally afraid that not saying anything will just cause people to, I don’t know, keep accidentally causing suffering to others. So I’ll stuff it under a read more and hope that keeps the impact minimal but not non-existent. 

But yeah this whole post is a demonstration that just because someone’s behaving weirdly doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re bad people. Even if they do something that seems downright mean. I read a post that was basically “there’s no such thing as asshole disorder” but there really is, and it’s whatever I have. I get so compelled to Do the right thing by my ethics and morals that I go through above *gestures* and take longer than neurotypicals do to respond to “good morning” and I don’t mean anything by it so I assume that people can tell because I assume the best in others, and others are free to assume the worst in me so they do. 

I’m not upset by it but I also wish that there were a better system to screen assholes than assuming that non-compliance with normality is a sign of evil, because that’s the system we seem to have. It might have a high reward in the brain via confirmation biases and whatnot, but that doesn’t seem worth the risk of basically knocking down any and every mental illness symptom that’s unpalatable. Because they’re all unpalatable to someone, somewhere. That’s what makes them symptoms. We don’t have any “glowing green hair” as symptoms because that’s just sick as fuck and I want some. People who have working with their symptoms and turned them into something beneficial have largely challenged societal ideas about what is “good” and “natural” to get there, and that type of work isn’t someone everyone is cut out for. 

Many physically disabled people are all medical model, all the way because they’ve been largely neurotypical their whole lives, and I’ve read their grieving posts like people recommend that I read and I just don’t see how I can help them empathize with me as a person that doesn’t give a shit if my clicking pen annoys people if it helps me focus. That’s an Asshole move if any has ever be determined by society, but at the same time, a common fundamental symptom of many disorders, and as such, I don’t feel bad about it and I don’t know that I could, ever, be made to feel guilty for existing. I’ve never seen myself as a drain on society. I’ve never felt like a freeloader. And I’ll never feel bad for being disable or neurodivergent. Does that make me the bad guy? Or the weird cool antihero from fiction? My impulse is to say “yes” to both ‘cause what people like in fiction is not always what they tolerate in real life 

It’s kinda weird and paradoxical that I can feel bad about not feeling bad but not feel bad about being disabled at the same time but w/e I’m an abuse survivor we, collectively, excel at stuff and things that most people may not understand so I guess that’s all the explanation I need 

[parachutingkitten]

Character Thoughts - Kai

Kai analysis yay! Going to be honest, he's not my favorite. I've been seeing some complaints about "why doesn't Kai get more love" and I hope maybe this may shine some light on why some people have a problem.

So, Kai. I have a... complex relationship with this character. Heck, the show has a complex relationship with this character! He was the main character for the pilot and first season, and then it just ditched him for the bratty 10 year old. And yet the show has a lingering liking for the character. It's never fully been able to give up the idea that Kai is an interesting character and deserves more focus. There's a lot of Kai focused tangents in many seasons and it's proof that the writers have some bias for him.

Fair warning, I am going to be pretty critical of him, but under no circumstance do I dislike him more than Lloyd. I think he's fine. I don't come close to hating him as a character. Just wanted to make that distinction up front.

Kai has been through some phases. The show plays up his hot head impulsive nature, and yet it tries to have him be the responsible one in the team's times of crisis (Only when Lloyd can't of course) and it's that kind of inconsistency that really throws me off. It seems like he develops a new irrational fear each season, and get irrationally angry at whatever and it just has me rolling my eyes.

I probably dislike him the most through the pilot and first two seasons. He's just SO immature, and irresponsible, and childish. There's a reason that everyone says "of a ninja turns evil. It would be Kai" because his unlikable tenancies are already there. His true potential episode annoys me SO much. He makes so many just, dumb decisions. He was also sorta a main character those seasons, and he suffers from the main character problems I outlined in Lloyd's analysis last time. Everything had to be big and dramatic and just mean the WORLD cuz he's important and troubled and blah blah, whatever. I don't care.

Thing is, Kai is a absolutely wonderful supporting character. When he's not the center of attention, he's a bunch of fun! He has good jokes, he has great chemistry with the others, and he's relatable in a lot of his reactions. He's just not great with the fake plastic drama. The season 7 drama. Yeah, season 7 sucks. It's not well written and it gets to make Kai "deep" and "emotional" the way Zane is, but that's not what Kai is. He doesn't need to have secret hidden parents to be a good character (Jay doesn't either for the record) he just needs to be sad that they're gone. Imagine him just confronting the fact that his parents had powers and wanting to live up to that, isn't that enough? Do we really need Vincent to try and play off of himself and terribly fail at disguising his voice?

And let's talk about voice acting here for a second. Vincent Tong is a great voice actor, but he really doesn't help the really bad writing much. He's so over the top intense, and he has that little gasping "wHaT?!" that he does, and it really just accentuates the bad writing. But he's absolutely wonderful on those smaller moments. He can give genuine emotion and reactions, as long as it's half decently written. I'm thinking of the Samurai X reveal personally, I can feel the sibling bond there. I like that. It's cute.

I get it. Me and my brother are only siblings (though I'mthe older one), and I can relate a lot of the connections Kai has with Nya. Kai was always his favorite, and I see why. He's intense and exciting and cool and funny all wrapped up into one. But I think that's my problem. He's just a little too much of everything.

Kai, as written, has some really great moments and some really sucky ones, and some awkward, forgettable, stupid ones. He's just put into the wrong situations most of the time. It's kind of all over the place.

Now, I feel like I also should address Kailor cuz that's... a thing. I feel like the same thing goes for Kailor that I've been saying for Kai. It's fine in it's smaller moments, but it really doesn't work when it's made out to be some epic love story. I like it the most when they're both sort of reluctantly in love with each other. Not when Kai is stumbling over his words to try and impress her and discover what hidden secrets she's hiding from him (I mean, come on. That's Jay's thing.) Kailor has potential. It's not executed especially well most of the time, but there's a spark I can see working out. I like the idea of them together.

Overall, Kai will never be my favorite character. Ever. Guaranteed. But I can't relate to him that much. My elemental personality is water. Probably why I have such a Zane bias. But that doesn't mean I don't like Kai. I like Kai, when he's good and makes sense. But when he's a jerk and a motivation-less stereotype I don't. It's kind of funny that the two ninja I feel have the most problems are the two with the most seasons dedicated to developing them. (Hint hint bad writing)

Anyway, those are my thoughts. Hope you enjoyed. If you have any other thoughts, let me know.

If you have a character you'd like me to analyze next, also let me know!

[lenavonschweetz]

Deep End

Loki x S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent Reader

Synopsis:  You don’t trust Loki.  You hate Loki, everything he stands for, and everything he does.  You are not becoming friends with him.  And you are most definitely not falling in love with him.

Warnings: tiny D.C. Cross over (whaaaat?) Talk of Mental Health/Distress, Depression, Angst, fluff, lil bit of Avengers Hate, Mind Control, foreshadowing of Infinity War (no spoilers though) that is tied in from the original Avengers film.

A/N: This doesn’t really follow the MCU timeline. I guess pretend that Odin got desperate and gave Loki to the Midguardians to handle for a bit while he caught up on that #OdinSleep.  Also, I saw a post a while back that really inspired this fic.  You should definitely check it out (and keep in mind that the blue and green eye color shifts in this fic are on purpose)  As always, I have no Beta. (If anyone wants to be my Beta, I would love you FOREVER) Let me know of any mistakes and I’ll fix them.

A/N/N: MY FIRST LOKI FIC!!!  Not sure how I feel about it, but it’s my first time exploring writing Loki as a character and I wanted to focus more on that than a huge, exhausting plot.  And it’s a beast. over 4,000 words (and an unnecessarily excessive amount of gifs)

 You didn’t want to admit it.  

You didn’t want to give him the power he so desperately wanted.

Yet here you were, handing it to him on a silver platter.

Loki Laufeyson was a snake, always has been, always will be.  But he knew who he was, which was more than you could say for yourself.

When the Avengers first brought him to your branch of S.H.I.E.L.D., you told everyone what a bad idea this was.  But no one listened.  Of course they didn’t.  Instead, they followed the advice of the foolish bunch that made up the team.  You didn’t understand how their words held so much weight.  They were people just like you, they made mistakes (a lot of mistakes) but because they were some overpowered assholes people bent to their whims left and right.

No one heeded what you had to say.

So when things started going wrong around the base, you had to bite your tongue from saying “I told you so!”  Nothing too extreme, no deaths or injuries, but you could tell the trickster was trying to amuse himself somehow.  You gathered that being held captive wasn’t exactly entertaining.

Loki’s magic was far stronger than any cage you could keep him in, that you knew for sure.  What you didn’t understand was why he didn’t just break out.  He could be free if he really wanted to, and you and your people wouldn’t be able to do anything to stop him.

You’d heard terrible things about him, about what’d he’d done both on your world and his own.  How he gleefully tortured humans before he was brought to justice in New York.  How he took advantage of his brother’s exile and all but doomed Asgard.  How, on many different occasions, he’d even tried to kill his brother and father.  Not his mother though... that bit stumped you.  There was definitely a monster painted in your mind when it came to Loki.

So when those great buffoons brought the Prince of Asgard to your people, your walls immediately shot up.  You prepared for day one to be absolute hell, having to wrangle Loki into a cell and keep him from trying anything.

Instead, what you got what a husk of a man, grey and weary, who was shoved unceremoniously into a cell to rot.  Everyone was ready to forget him.

A luxury you wish you shared.

But when you saw those sunken eyes and broken man, you wondered how the hell this was the infamous Chitauri leader who practically leveled New York City.  Something about him wouldn’t let you be.  Something about him begged to be discovered and damn it, you were never one to turn away from a mystery.

And a mystery he was.

Every time you saw him, you saw a different shadow of a man.  Sometimes he would terrify you, his smile stretching across his face in genuine enjoyment when he unsettled someone.  Others, he wept - openly, not giving a damn who saw him.  You couldn’t figure him out and it infuriated you.

Your superiors weren’t happy when you all but demanded to be assigned to Loki’s charge.  In fact, they were downright pissed.  Accused you of having some sick fascination with the murderous trickster.  ‘We don’t need another situation like Gotham.’  They hissed, and that was the last of that.  In your defense, you were never really good with authority.

But you were not Dr. Quinzel.  You didn’t lust after this man, or love him. 

You hated him and you wanted to figure out what made him tick.  That way you could crush him just like he’d crushed your world.

You’re careful as you try to weasel your way through the system and get yourself reassigned.  Lucky you, a rookie agent is overjoyed at the chance to get out of Loki’s charge.  He thinks you’re insane, but he doesn’t need to be asked twice.

You bide your time, exchanging small favors with the high ups of the department.  An overlooked disappearance here, a waived debt there.  You didn’t like it, but it was a means to an end.

And it was all worth it when you were finally placed as Chief Observation of the operation - in charge of keeping an eye and ear on Loki at almost all times.  The increased personal time between the two of you gives you plenty of time to notice strange ticks and inconsistencies in the Trickster’s behavior.  Even inconsistencies in his appearance.

You think you’re imagining it at first.  That it’s a trick of the light when his eyes sometimes look blue, sometimes green.  Sometimes his skin even looks duller than usual...almost, a sickly blue... You write it off as some of his distasteful magic tricks.

Your first several exchanges are useless.  An angry man throwing out hateful words.  He goads you, giving you absolutely nothing when you ask your questions, slowly trying to ease your way in.

Over the weeks your strained relationship doesn’t become any less hostile, but the routine seems to offer you both some sense of comfort.  On days you don’t have an encounter with him, you find yourself feeling a little out of sorts.

Even though he says horrid, dehumanizing things...days without his presence seem...odd.

You attribute it to his (probable) magic use on you.

The first time he shows you even an ounce of kindness, you’re shocked.  You don’t know how to take it, analyzing it from an emotionless standpoint - the one you’d trained so hard on.  What was his motive?  Did he think he could butter you up, get you on his side with false promises and Asgardian chivalry?  If he thought he had a read on you, he had another thing coming.

Passing months make your relationship feel odd.  You don’t like each other, that much is evident.  But you tolerate each other.  One could say you even look forward to your time together.  

Maybe it’s a sick perversion.

As time goes on, however, you worry that perhaps you understand him, maybe even identify with him.  You quickly shove that revelation to the side, doubling down on your combat training to work off some of the stress.

“It’s good to see you, pet,”  Loki says, voice soft and pleasant.  You wouldn’t admit it to anyone, but you did prefer days when he seemed softer.  Not just his tone of voice, but even the way he carried himself.  He didn’t seem so...sharp.

You had to put your guard up on high for days like these.

“Goodmorning, Loki.”  You greet, wearing a small smile.  The one he returns makes your heart flutter makes you suspicious.  “How was breakfast?”

“Tasteless, barely fit to be called a meal, but sustenance none the less.”  There doesn’t seem to be any malice in his words, but you won’t let him get the better of you.  A chuckle, mirthful, not aggressive.  “As usual.” Something changes in his face then.  A flicker of movement in his eyes, sorrow on his face. “I’m glad you’re here.”  He whispers.  “I wanted to talk to you.”

You wait with bated breath, unable to place the note in Loki’s voice that sounds as if he’s about to break.

“About?”

“I’m sorry.”

You’re not expecting that.  To be honest, you don’t even know what he’s apologizing for, but you’re not sure if he’s ever said those words in his entire life.  

“I...I have said things that...done things.”  He struggles with the word.  The way he gulps down his nerves is audible.  “Vile things.  Know that I am not typically all that loathsome. Though I do not deny that I do have perhaps a little too much fun with discourse.”  His smile is genuine, shy, and small. It takes him a moment to go on.  “I do not deserve your forgiveness.  I know it’s strange and unrequited - not like that -” He tacks on when you raise an eyebrow.  “But I have come to consider you...a friend.”

No.  No no no no no no no no no.  You should not.  You do not feel the same.  Feeling the same is a slippery slope, and you were. not. Harleen. Quinzel.  You would remain strong.  You would not fall victim to those beautiful green eyes and bad boy attitude. You. would. not.

“I do consider you a friend, Loki.”  Well, you tried.

You do your best to convince yourself that you’re lying to him, feigning friendship as a manipulation tactic.  It doesn’t help that he’s smiling at you like that.

You know it’s a lie.

So does he.

It still keeps you up at night.

“Goodmorning, Agent X.”  That sick smile crossed a pale, hardened face.  So it was one of those days.

“You know that’s not my name, Loki.”  You say as a way of greeting.  he merely shrugs, shackles clinking quietly against the desk where he was tethered.

“I know.  But why would I bother to learn the name of someone so abysmally insignificant when I can just call you whatever I’d like?”

“Charming.”

“I try, pet.”  You hate when he calls you ‘pet’ on his worse days.  It taints the memory of how affectionately he says it on his good days.

Sighing and rolling your eyes, you sit down opposite him and do your best to avoid eye contact.  It was an action that you deemed unwise when he was in this mood.

“Alright, your majesty,”  you begin with a stabbing smirk of your own.  The title brings a fire to those blue eyes.  One you try to ignore.  “Let’s get to it then, shall we?”

“Yes, let’s.  Tell me, pet, how do you want me?  On the floor, against the wall?”  He licks his lips, blue eyes drinking in every inch of you in your too tight tactical gear.  “On the table?”

“I’d rather compliant.”  He tsks at that, cocking his head to the side with an infuriating smirk.

“Well, I’m normally the one in control, but I must say the thought of a woman like you dominating this whole...squabble is quite enticing.  Especially when you choose to keep me bound like this.”

“Get your head out of the gutter, Trickster, before I remove it for you and then shove it up your own ass.”  The smirk does not disappear, in fact, it grows wider.  You ignore it.  “New York.  I assume I don’t have to elaborate?”

“But I do so love it when you drone on and on,”  Loki says, sarcasm dripping off every word.  “The sound of your voice does so arouse my interest.”

“Yeah, and yours does so quash mine.”  You snap back, voice mocking in a different way than his.  “Loki.  New York.  Your take over.  We still have agents missing, and I aim to find them.  The ones you controlled and otherwise.”

“Well, my dear, might I suggest going to check where this all began?  I do think it would be quite obvious, no?  Tell me, did you bother to check the rubble.”  Your teeth gnash, your jaw clenching, and you so desperately try to hide your fury from him.  It does not go unnoticed.  “As for the ones I controlled, what is it you humans typically do with a beast of burden who has outlived its usefulness.”

Metal screeching against metal echos through the interrogation chamber as you violently push your chair away from the table.  Loki doesn’t even flinch when you slam your hands down to hold your shaking body up.

“God damn it, you sick sonofabitch, where. is. my. sister?”  Tears burn at the corners of your eyes, threatening to fall over.  The tighter you clench your jaw the less it seems to help.

“Oooh.  It finally comes out.”  His voice is a snarl, balanced and timed perfectly. “The thing you’ve been dying to know since we met a year ago, yes?  I’ve seen it, you know?  The utter need to hear the answer, the truth.  Listen to me very carefully, pet.”  His voice is chilling, his power looming over you without him even having to move a muscle.  “You will not raise your voice to me again.  I am a god, and I will not be threatened by a meager Midgardian who I could crush if I so wished.  Just like I did your sister.  Now, shall we try that again?”

You want nothing more than to punch that sickening grin off of his sharp, pale face.  It takes everything you have not to, and then some to gather your composure. You can’t look him in the eyes, not after that, ot while you have to clench your fists to keep from choking him to death.  Finally, you feel like you can speak without breaking.

“I hope you enjoy your stay, Loki.  Because you'll get no more kindness from me.”

“And here I thought things were going to get boring.”

You don’t speak to Loki for weeks.

You don’t go to visit him either.  The last exchange has left you so livid that you even change his meal schedule, only letting the guards feed him once a day now. Perhaps it was cruel.  But nowhere near half as cruel as what he had done.

Your routine shifts, something you’d secretly been dreading.  Your entertaining, albeit unorthodox, company leaves a hole in your life that you find difficult to fill.  

The change affects Loki as well, though he wouldn’t tell the peons you’ve sent him in your stead.  No, instead he would suffer in silence.

And suffer he did.

A darkness that he hadn’t known for a while, not since you began to visit him a year ago, begins to creep back into his consciousness.  It darkens his days, keeps him up at night - though the tears may be the real cause of his sleeplessness.  

A sickly sweet voice haunts his dreams and even his waking hours.  The lure of power and revenge.  Of acceptance.  He fights it as best he can.  He hadn’t completely shaken it before, that he knew.

And he regretted it more than anything.

He hated the days when that darkness made him that much more foul.  Of course, he was never aware of it in the morning.  No, instead he would wake up the next day, sometimes even days later, with the memory of your face as he hurled something particularly nasty your way.  The image would haunt him, and it took everything he had not to cry when you came to see him again.

But now those visits had stopped, and it becomes harder and harder for Loki to pull himself out of his abyss.

Odin did not want him, he was not worthy of a throne, or affection from his people or even his own brother.  He did not belong, he never did.  The only time he felt like he was wanted was with this putrid force manipulating his mind.

He’s losing himself again and the only person who’s been able to find him again is gone.

You have no patience.  You’ve reached the end of your rope.  It was your day off, yet here you were, stomping into the base because Loki was throwing a fit.

The god of mischief was throwing a temper tantrum.  And you were, apparently, the only one he would let into his cell without hurling some projectile at them.

You hear his screaming in the corridor long before you see him, your heart hammering painfully at the sound of utter agony in his voice.  The guards outside his cell raise their eyebrows at you, obviously not impressed with that fact that you were the one he asked for demanded.  When you pass through the first measure of security to get a glimpse of him through the two-way mirror, your heart breaks at what you see.

Loki is huddled on the floor, debris of the furnishings S.H.I.E.L.D. had so generously provided after you kept pestering asking them strewn all around him.  He’s covered in blood, sweat, and tears - literally - and for the first time in a long time, you feel bad for Loki.  Finally, his thrashing ceases and he slumps against the wall behind him, falling silent.

At least he seems to be done screaming.

“Are you going to act like a big boy now, Mr. All Powerful God, or should I come back later after you’ve decided to grow up?”

The answer to your biting sarcasm is silence.  Loki doesn’t even bother to glance at the glass (which you know he can definitely see through with those powers of his.)

After several more moments of silence, you relent, scanning your badge and inputting your fingerprint and code to enter the Trickster’s quarters.  He’s silent when you enter, the only sound in the room is his heavy breathing as he attempts to recover from his tantrum.  Still, his eyes are trained on something invisible in front of him, something dancing behind those haunted eyes.

“What was so damn important that you had to go destroying your room over.  S.H.I.E.L.D. is not going to replace this, by the way.  I hope you enjoy your redecorating.”  You stand there for several, tense minutes, as unmoving as the man in front of you.  Finally, after what seems like an eternity, you can take no more.  “Well, Loki?  What do you have to say for yourself?”

When he still doesn’t answer, you scoff and turn on your heels to make a hasty retreat.

“I didn’t kill your sister.”

His voice is so quiet, so broken, that you have to take a moment to figure out if he’d actually spoken or if you were hearing things.

“Excuse me?”

“I didn’t kill your sister.  Though my intentions with her and other agents’ skills were less than admirable, I did not hurt them.”

“Alright,” your voice wavers far more than you would like.  “So you didn’t hurt a small group of people.  And though I can...appreciate that you didn’t hurt my flesh and blood, you still killed hundreds.  Possibly thousands.”

“I know.”  You had expected him to sound cocky.  Not like a small child.  “I am not claiming I’m worthy of any sort of redemption.  I deserve it here.  But I had to tell you.  I did not hurt your sister.  And if I could, I would tell you where she is.”

“And why can’t you?”  Your voice fills the small chamber as you scream at Loki.  His green eyes come up to meet the fire in your own.

“It’s...difficult to explain.”

“Try me.”

“I don’t remember where she is.  Only that the last time I saw her and the other agents there were safe.”

“Well then, where did you last see them?”  You press.

“That’s the problem.  I can’t remember.”

“How do you forget something like that?”

“Because I wasn’t the one who abandoned them!  It was me, but then again it wasn’t.  I don’t know how to - it’s all turned upside down in - It’s because of him.  He found me.  After I’d been...denounced by my father.”

“Who found you?”

“Thanos.”  You’re not quite sure why, but the name sends nausea straight through you.  Perhaps it’s the way even Loki seems to fear it.  “He gave me an offer...one I could not refuse, but then you can’t really refuse anything when your mind isn’t your own now, can you?”  His laugh is forced, hollow, and you find yourself missing his true laughter as his words sink in.

“Agent Barton.”  You surmise.  “You controlled him with your scepter...you got the scepter from Thanos...”

“Correct.”

“Did...Loki, did the scepter control you?”

His answer lies in the shame he exudes when he can’t bring himself to look at you.

“Not...entirely.  He offered me what I wanted.  I am sorry to say that I...took his offer with no hesitation.  It wasn’t until after he accentuated my desires that I realized I was...changing.  I was not...myself. I know I’m no saint, pet, but I’ve seen what Thanos wants.  It makes even me sick.”

“How can I trust you, Loki?”

“You can’t.  But I trust you.”

You scoff at the sentiment, trying to ignore the tears that collect in the corners of your eyes.

“This is just another bunch of your lies.  I don’t have to listen to it anymore.”  You have to get out of here.  You’re powerless to him and his magic.  Powerless to his charms.  He was trying to manipulate you, nothing more.

“Pet,”

“Stop trying to control me, Loki!”  You screech, turning on him as your hand finds its way to the holster on your hip.  Green eyes follow the movement, flicking away from your fingers resting on the butt of your gun back to your intense gaze.  He’s calm.  He knows you won’t shoot him.  The thought makes you even angrier.  “Plead all you want, but I am not falling for your - your mind control again!”

“I would never do that to you!”  You’re terrified for a moment, unable to keep from jumping at Loki’s sudden outburst.  Around you, debris flies out ward.  Some of the wooden furniture intact from his last fit splinter against the wall.  Instinct takes over as metal and woods scream around you, and before you can register what’s happening, your gun is trained right on Loki.  His red-rimmed eyes absolutely bore into you and a wet sob breaks from his throat.  “I have never done that to you.”  Tears.  Actual tears roll down Loki’s cheeks, his voice cracking with sorrow.  “I would never put anyone through the torment that still haunts me.”

You holster your gun, and not even you can pretend its because of Loki’s magic.  You do this of your own free will.

Your legs have a mind of their own, moving before you can even register what’s happening.  Kneeling, you reach for him and for the very first time, you touch him.  His cheek is cold, his tears even colder as you wipe them away from his smooth skin.  Those haunted green eyes find your own and you have to swallow the emotion welling in your throat.

“I still feel it sometimes.”  He pants, reaching up to hold your hand against his cheek.  His eyes flutter shut at the comfort it brings.  “It scratches at my mind until I give in from the pain.  I can’t control it, I don’t know which way is up or who anyone is - who I am.  But you...”  His brow furrows - a tension that you brush away with comforting fingers.  As you lovingly caress his skin, his eyes find you once more.  “You, Y/N, you calm the storms within my head.”  You realize in that moment that Loki has never called you anything other than pet, or Agent.

His cool hands close around your hand placed on his cheek, bringing your knuckles to brush against his chapped, cracked lips. Unable to hold them back any longer, your tears fall free with a shuttering breath.  Loki’s face is kind, gentle, as he reaches forward with his free hand to brush your tears away as you had his.  You’re lost in his eyes, in the cool, pale expanse of his chilled skin, the way your hands feel so good against each other’s skin.

It isn’t until some stray wire behind you (displaced by his earlier outburst) sparks loudly, illuminating the bags under Loki’s gorgeous eyes that you suddenly remember where you are.  Grievously, you pull your hand away from him and sit back on your haunches across from him.

“Loki...we...we can’t.  They’ll take me off your charge, or worse - detain us both.  I cannot be another Dr. Qui-”

“I would never ask that of you.  I don’t deserve you.  You have my word, that I will do everything in my power to fight Thanos’ spell and I will find your sister, my love.”  He reaches forward once more, his knuckles brushing briefly against your cheek.  A forbidden touch.  One to help him hold off from more.  “But a friendship.  A helping hand.  Help me become the man I was before all this.  Please.  Help me to be better than that.”  He smiles remorsefully.  “Maybe then, if I am given a second chance...maybe we can try.  All I ask of you now is to just be here.  Calm my storms, pet.”

“I can try.”

“I could never ask for more.”  You regard him as you stand and proceed toward the door.  The two of you share one last glance for now, one that is free from any masks or malice.  The only thing you see in Loki’s eyes in affection and trust.  Something you’re sure is reflected right back at him in your own eyes.

“Loki, you wouldn’t need to ask.”

You didn’t wanted to admit it.

You didn’t wanted to give him the power love he so desperately wanted needs.

And here you are, handing it to him on a silver platter.  And he was doing exactly the same for you.

(please be gentle.  It’s my first time with Loki (lol) and I know it was underwhelming.  Thanks for reading anyway!)

TAGS:

TRUE LOVE TAGS:

@bxtchybrie , @sergeantjamesbarnes107th , @itsanotheravengersimaginesblog, @blackcoffeeandgreenteaforme , @james-bionic-barnes , @mickeyl322 , @stank-tower , @lostinspace33 , @thecrownedrose , @nikkitia7 , @redroomproperty , @magpiegirl80 , @fifi1433 , @knittingknerdy , @specs15 , @justareader , @metalarmandredstar , @agentsofcap , @marvel-lucy , @pickylittlebitch , @shamvictoria11 , @twistedfate108 , @tori-medusa-belongs-to-bucky , @too-many-fandoms-and-shitposting, @allinhishands , @hellomissmabel , @mizzzpink , @smexy-bucky-waifu , @annwhojumps , @avengerofyourheart , @saffreelove , @palaiasaurus64 , @flowercrownsandmetallicarms , @sexyvixen7 , @armenian-nerd, @thiddlestoff, @callingmrsbarnes , @avengebuckybarnes , @splaine-to-me , @to-be-a-sunshine , @heismyhunter , @miladycollie , @4theluvofall , @sebastianbarnesandchrisrogers , @writingourwildestemodreams , @imadandelion-yourearose, @sebbymylove16, @harrysbbby, @italyand5soslover283, @gingerbatchwife,@httpbarnes, @subtletynotwithstanding, @panickingwiththefalloutboys, @hardcorehippos, @ryverpenrad, @stellarfairie, @nativesebby, @violentlyfarts, @dianelogan, @mrtinslydia, @ladylizzieofdarbyshire, @unidentifiedanonfics, @microscopicmonsters, @elohunnie, @ifoundlove-x0vanessa0x

Loki Lovers:

@boobearlover2469, @notthegodofknives, @mayamegs, @unicornsxfandoms, @boohooiamthefool, @mdgrdians, @fvckingromantic, @orighami

[laylainalaska]

sheronm replied to your post: muchymozzarella: People who tell me “intent...

The way I’ve seen “intent doesn’t matter” used is not “disregard cultural context” but rather “it doesn’t matter what you wanted to say what matters is what your work said”. That is, the work should stand on its own without extra interviews and explanations. I never follow director interviews when I watch something because often what I see on the screen is self-explanatory and just because they think they were showing me one thing doesn’t mean that’s what came across.

I totally get that - I do! I mean, I do care about that stuff personally - it’s interesting to me - but I agree that Word of God doesn't matter for fanfic writing/meta-making/headcanoning purposes; what matters is what is actually there in the actual canon itself.

I guess what I tend to get frustrated with in fandom is the general idea that fandom interpretation >>> everything else, e.g. Peggy and Angie in season one ARE a couple because fandom says so and therefore S2 is wildly inconsistent with S1, or the people who wrote Elizabeth in SGA as an incompetent harpy even though it was abundantly clear (I thought so, anyway) that she was supposed to be a good leader and skilled diplomat, even if some of her episodes didn't quite bear that out. I mean when it comes right down to it, I find it much less interesting to look at canon and just make my own stuff up than to analyze the hell out of it and try to figure out what they were trying to say with it, you know? If I’m going to write original fiction about OCs who happen to share the canon characters’ names, I’ll just go write original fiction instead.

(.... She said, while actively shipping a number of non-canon couples and writing scads of AUs. shhhhhhh. XD)

[mbtizone]

Main Character Syndrome & MBTI

I’ve been thinking a lot about why certain characters can seem impossible to type. Sometimes, it can be really difficult to type a character when the writers haven’t really taken the time to give them a concrete personality. I notice that this seems to happen a lot with main characters specifically, which seems ludicrous, doesn’t it? I mean, if we’re watching a show, we’re supposed to root for the main character. We should feel as though we have a sense of who they are. However, many main characters are very poorly written. They’re defined in terms of what happens to them. We know them by their situation and their story. But their story isn’t who they are. Often, I find that their cognition will change in order to suit a storyline, which seems to happen less with supporting characters. Supporting characters tend to be very solid in terms of cognition, while main characters are all over the place and contradictory. I find it frustrating because it’s lazy.

I am starting to believe that certain characters can’t be typed. If you can see arguments for nearly every function in a character, then sure, you can try to narrow down which ones they use most frequently and pull a type out of that, but in the next episode, you’ll probably doubt yourself or change your mind. If you find yourself in this situation, it’s probably not you. It’s likely more of a reflection of the author/screenwriter than it is of your typing abilities. I’m going to run down some specific examples of this problem off the top of my head.

Elena Gilbert: Man, Elena is rough. I’ve seen her typed as an ISFJ, INFP, ISTJ, INFJ, etc. The only thing people seem to agree on is that she leads with an introverted function. I would have to agree with that. I will say that I see more Si/Ne than Ni/Se. However, she’s extremely damaged, which may make it more difficult to type her. If you look at her life prior to losing her parents, she seemed very different, so how much of what we see is her true self and not muddied by all of the tragedy in her life? Elena is so inconsistent. She’s a giant ball of contradictions. I think a lot of people stereotype her, and, I can’t say that I fully blame them for that because there’s not a lot else to really go on. I can make arguments for both Fi and Fe, but if I were being forced to make a call one way or the other, I would probably go with Fi. Where Fi is in her functional stack… I really couldn’t say at this point in time.

In the six seasons that Elena was on the show, she really wasn’t developed very well at all. It seems that the writers relied too heavily on what other people do to her and what happens to her and not enough on defining who she is. She’s probably the best example of “Main Character Syndrome” that I can think of. She lost her parents. She’s a piece of meat in an alley and the Salvatore brothers are a couple of stray dogs. She’s a doppelgänger. Elena is a Mary Sue. I was never really able to root for her because, after six years, I honestly never really felt like I knew anything about her other than those facts. She’ll do anything to protect the people she cares about, but that’s not really a defining trait. As a matter of fact, that’s probably true of most people. She prioritizes the people who are close to her over strangers or people she doesn’t know very well. It’s hard to analyze her character and pull a personality type out of it when she’s just kind of all over the place.

Lucas Scott: Lucas is usually typed as an NF, most often INFJ or INFP. I’ve watched all of One Tree Hill more times than I can count over the years and I still find myself wavering on whether Lucas uses Fi or Fe. He can appear to use both functions at different times. He sometimes clings to his moral judgments and can become extremely critical of those who fail to measure up, but he is also good at articulating his feelings and giving speeches about them, and has ideas about the way things “should” be. I think that I see more Fi in him than Fe. I have a theory that when he appears to use Fe, it’s actually Fi. Lucas has strong ideas about the kind of person he is (or wants to be), and because he sees himself a certain way, he can take on some stereotypical Fe traits. Lucas cares about people and, for him, it is important to express that to them. I don’t think he expresses himself because he feels that’s the appropriate thing to do. I think he does it because that’s the sort of person he wants to be. It’s not really for other people’s sake, it’s for him. He wants to live up to his own personal ideals. However, when I try to look for the Te, there is virtually none in him. Honestly, I see a stronger case for Ti in him than Te. But, he obviously can’t be both Fi and Ti. Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe his morality isn’t decided internally. It’s really difficult for me to decide one way or another. As I’m writing this, I’m thinking of certain instances and going, “Oh, you know, maybe he is Fe after all.” I can’t make a call either way with any real certainty, so for now, I won’t.

Now… is he Ne-Si or Se-Ni? This is an even bigger struggle for me to lock down than Fi-Te/Fe-Ti. Lucas has an appreciation of symbolism and he’s extremely insightful. He can see people for who they are and has inherent understandings about things. I don’t really see Ne in him but I do see Ni. I can see a case for inferior Se in him, but is he really Ni-dom? And, if he were Ni-dom, he would have to be an INFJ, and I’m not ready to label him Fe just yet. He’s definitely not an INTJ. If he uses Te at all (which is a big “if” for me), then it would be low in his stack. I can’t come up with a single function that he absolutely, undoubtedly uses.

Aria Montgomery: Beyond being an Fi-dom, what other functions does Aria really use? There really isn’t enough evidence to support Se, Ne, Si, or Ni. She’s defined by her relationship with Ezra, but her personality is pretty bland. She’s “artsy.” I’ve seen people use her interest in writing and photography as support for both Ne and Se, which is weak and stereotypical. She makes stupid short-sighted decisions sometimes, like having an affair with her teacher, but I don’t feel like that’s evidence of Se. I’m sure you can find Ne users who have, or would be willing to have a sexual relationship with a teacher. Doesn’t mean they’re not Ne. A repeated argument I see to “support” INFP is her love of old movies as though no Se in the world enjoys older films. All of the reasonings I’ve seen have been extremely superficial and weak. I believe this to be a result of people desperately trying to fit her somewhere, when, in reality, she is just a poorly written character. Spencer, Hanna, Emily, and Alison are all reasonably fleshed out characters. I’ve never seen Hanna typed anything other than ESFP. Spencer is mostly typed ENTJ, but I have seen the occasional ESTJ, but the general consensus does seem to be ENTJ. I’ve never seen Emily typed as anything but ISFJ. I’ve never seen Alison typed as anything other than ENFJ. This isn’t because everyone jumps on the same bandwagon. It’s because there’s evidence and consistency. Aria, on the other hand, is defined in terms of her relationships and what happens to her. Is there really more to her than that?

Dawson Leery: Sort of like a less tolerable late ’90s Lucas Scott. I see him typed as INFJ or INFP, just like Lucas. I can’t justify him being Ni-dom, though. I lean towards INFP for him because he has that strong moral code and a tendency to chastise anyone who violates it. He can be so judgmental with people when they make decisions he disagrees with. Dawson sees a lot of things as black and white. He can also be pretty selfish with his emotions. And I can see a stronger case for inferior Te than inferior Se. If someone were to ask me what type I think he is, I would probably instinctively say INFP, but if I were asked to explain why, in any kind of detail, I would probably be at a loss.

Sam and Dean Winchester: Ugh, Sam and Dean. I love them to death, but they give me such a headache when it comes to MBTI. I’ve mostly seen Sam typed INFJ, INTJ, and INTP. I definitely think that he’s a Fe-user, and I don’t think it’s inferior, so I’m more inclined to subscribe to the INFJ typing, but I’m still trying to gather enough evidence to actually do a post for him. A lot of people think he’s Fi because he carves out an individual identity from his family away from hunting, but I don’t think that argument is strong enough. Fe-users are capable of doing that. Leaving home and carving out a new life for himself could stem from Ni instead of Fi. Though, there are also times I think he might use Si instead of Ni. All of the “evidence” I’ve seen in the various typings for him that I’ve read seem flimsy and like they’re really just trying to make something fit him, so as of right now, I don’t really know anything for sure when it comes to Sam. My opinion varies episode to episode.

I see Dean mostly typed as ESTJ, ESTP, and the most ridiculous one in my opinion, ESFJ. I believe that he’s definitely Fi/Te, so I don’t think that he’s an ESTP and definitely not an ESFJ, but I’m not completely sold on him as a Te-dom, either. I’ve always been mostly torn between ESTJ and ESFP for him. I think a big problem with the Winchesters is that Supernatural has been on the air for so long that their personalities seem to go through a lot of changes over the years. Maybe it has to do with different writers coming on, I’m not really sure. They’ve also been through a lot and are far from healthy, which makes things pretty difficult as well.

Klaus Mikaelson: ENTJ or ESFP? Most days, I will declare Klaus an ESFP with absolute certainty, but every now and then I find myself watching an episode of The Originals (or an old episode of The Vampire Diaries) and second guess myself. My problem with him is that I see more of a case for dominant Se than dominant Te… but I notice more signs of inferior Fi in him than inferior Ni. I’m going to have to launch a massive character study to determine his type once and for all because he drives me crazy.

Ted Mosby: I sometimes see him typed as an INFJ, but the main argument in those typings seems to be his long-term goal of getting married, as though that can’t also be true of a Si-dom. Does his goal come from doing what is traditional and expected of him (Si) or because that is simply the vision he has for his life (Ni)? What is his motivation? There are sometimes cases to be made for inferior Se in him, though. I’m actually pretty evenly split on Ted. Let’s take the story that he’s telling his kids. Very detail-oriented. Very specific, vivid memories (which he sometimes tends to remember subjectively rather than objectively). However, he sees how all of these memories are connected to build a larger, overall picture and has a strong concept of symbolism. He’s future-focused and has a clear visual of the life he wants for himself, yet he is also hung up on the past and tends to hold onto old relationships instead of moving forward (Karen, Victoria, Robin). He even keeps all of the stuff he has received in his past relationships in his apartment because they remind him of specific experiences. He’s both a realist and an idealist. He’s grounded and his head is in the clouds. Past-focused and future-oriented. Out of every character I’ve had to decide between Si and Ni for, Ted probably gives me the most trouble.

I’m currently rewatching episodes of One Tree Hill and Pretty Little Liars in order to definitively type Lucas and Aria. After that, I’m going to try to tackle Elena and Klaus… and then the Winchesters. Ted will probably come sometime after that. Dawson is probably going to take a while, because while I loved Dawson’s Creek, I don’t know if rewatching the series is actually worth sitting through Dawson himself. I consider him to be one of the most insufferable television characters in history, so, while I find the show entertaining and I like the other characters, I always have a heavy feeling when I consider watching it again because he just annoys me to no end.

Main Character Syndrome & MBTI was originally published on MBTI Zone

[heero-yuy]

Your interpretation of lance and keith is interesting, but the reason I don't really buy it is that the factual evidence your are basing it upon is not that reliable (it's obvious for the maze one, the others are more ambiguous). I mean it in a totally non-offensive way, but maybe instead of focusing on the characters and their actions as if they were real people, it would be interesting to take a step back, and rather think about the choices made by the writers and animators of the series? 1/

Of course as I said this is just a pov, I really enjoy reading your scene and character analyses! But if you consider the creators, well, maybe in that first scene Keith didn't punch Lance because, 1st what would he have done about Shiro, & 2nd, because it would have taken more screentime to resolve the situation?(+maybe other reasons?)This applies to other situations as well, such as in s2e1, with the fire(it bring meaning to the scene?) or their body language on the poster(a q° of balance?)2/2

Well Keith could have kicked him I guess, his legs are totally free, told him to step back.. lot’s of stuff really. The point was that it’s kinda out of character for Keith to trust these 3 so fast considering he knows nothing about either of them. 

And yeah, you can say the writers just needed to get them all together real fast and didn’t care how out of character they made this, but I’d like to think they know what they are doing and that there are reasons behinds stuff. Not behind everything ofcourse, but most things.

Like, a way better introduction would be having Keith’s “Leeroy Jenkinsplan” fail somehow, and Lance, Hunk and Pidge coming to his rescue and in that way showing him they are trustworthy and on his side. And then it wouldn’t seem so odd he lets them come with him. That dun have to take any more screen time, just make one of em knock a doctor on the head while they got a hold on Keith or somethin... Because like think about it, they really didn’t do anything but being in the way and putting Keith and Shiro in risk during that escape. And yeah, I’d like a better explanation than “Destiny”, cause Keith should have been “good bye suckers” once he’d gotten Shiro on that hovercraft, by all logic. He really didn’t need 3 people to carry Shiro.. Should have left all that non essential weight exactly where he found it.

And the fire was obviously there because they wanted to create an intimate atmosphere, like it’s a touching meaningful moment and it just wouldn’t look the same if it happened in the lion’s cockpit. I am well aware of this. I think I also mentioned that in my post. But it’s still fun to fill in the gaps they leave for us. Like this is where you get your canon compliant fan fics and arts.. (And Keith and Shiro have alot of those “ofscreen potentially really meaningful scenes”..)

And you do say the fire brings meaning to a scene.. But I guess you just disagree about the meaning I suggested? (is this about shipping?)

I dunno, I look at everything from a writers point of view first, and I feel like I usually know what stuff are like “cartoon logic” with nothing behind it (usually, because all those years of being a homestuck are making me overthink absolutely everything haha), you don’t see me complaining and making theories about how it doesn’t makes sense Aliens speak english, and how Kerberos doesn’t look like that, and how Slav is full of BS because that is not how parallel realities work (actually maybe I will rant about this one sometime, this and Kaltenecker, cuz ALIENS DUN JUST TAKE COWS, THEY DO CATTLE MUTILATIONS DAMMIT) or maybe even about how Shiro doesn’t recognize Pidge right away even when seeing a picture of her and Matt... There’s LOTS of stuff that dun make sense that I dun dig into too much..

I’d still point these stuff out, because I just can’t help but notice patterns, details and inconsistencies. And sometimes they will have something behind them, and sometimes not. 

And if the writers didn’t put much thought into a certain something, fans will usually do the work for them, and come up with amazing creative stories and explain it in their own ways. Like that’s one of the fun parts about fandom.

(like lets say the “lion slippers”, they were obviously there to sell a product or as a joke I dunno, but you can like make so many stories about why all the paladins get slippers and bathing suits and other items in their color I guess, like maybe one of the original paladins was like a really sweet person and made like welcome packages for everyone or something... Hand sewed the slippers for everyone as a gift.. and then no one wore them.. Maybe even it was Zarkon’s idea or doing... Maybe that's why he had a fight with Alfor.. Or maybe Alfor made them and Zarkon just refused to wear them and that’s why they had a fight. lot’s of fun stories you can come up with)

And unless you’re like actually one of the Voltron writers on anon just going "But we had to make Keith out of character!!! You don’t know what we are going through and how stingy dreamworks are with the budget!!!” then I will really have to disagree with the “but maybe instead of focusing on the characters and their actions as if they were real people, it would be interesting to take a step back, and rather think about the choices made by the writers and animators of the series?”

Because If you’re a good writer, you will think about these characters as real people, you will think about what they feel, what they think, why they do the things they do, and you will write accordingly, considering all the production limitations. Because that’s what makes characters feel real. And I think the Voltron team did an amazing job with that! I really wouldn't be spending time analyzing scenes and relationships if Voltron didn’t prove to me there’s hidden depths to things(not to everything, but to most things) and the characters are really really well developed and thought through. (and fans do it with shows that have like zero depth behind anything all the time even, cuz it’s fun and people want depth.)

Like it’s so nicely done even the silly stuff kinda you know, dun seem out of character...

Like lets say with that random fire, it really wouldn’t be odd if Keith like suggested “Well, if we make a fire maybe they’ll see it and find us” and Shiro just shrugged and said “worth's a try”. Because they already did something just as stupid with the pyramid when trying to form Voltron. 

Like these character are silly and do silly random stuff like real people do, and are aware of the absurdity of the situations they are in..

And I’m not sure what you mean exactly about the body language..

Actually, you’re being very vague and not making any concrete points on what exactly you’re not agreeing with me about, but if you really wanna argue with me about somethin then you’re welcome to like reblog that post with all your points and receipts. 

I don’t get offended when people disagree with me, and I’m glad if someone points out something I missed or forgot. (as long as it’s not one of those my headcanon is better than your headcanon arguments, cuz I dun have alot of patience for that, headcanons and canon theories are two different things, so these kind of arguments are pointless)

And like no one has to agree with my interpretations (sometimes i dun even agree with them haha) but like if you don’t and you wanna debate or argue then bring it on! I love arguing! But you really gotta be less vague than that..

[mild-lunacy]

I was gonna write or reblog my old plea to have someone point me to a Tumblr where someone's writing Johnlock-friendly Series 4 meta (that works with the assumption the show is all real, I mean, and isn't *just* critiquing it). That would still be nice. But then I realized part of the problem with TFP and Series 4 in general in meta circles hasn't been about canon Johnlock or any particular plot or characterization point so much as the encroaching conviction that the show is basically meaningless, or should not be analyzed deeply because it was intrinsically inconsistent and overly dramatic, more or less, as a lot of people said on @datmycroft's post on Series 3. Actually, @marsdaydream said this awhile ago about Series 3-4-- that they 'defy analysis' because the writing invites close attention at the same time as it demands hand-waving dismissal of logic and common sense at times-- but I guess I just thought it would... pass? I mean, it hasn't really *clicked* before. In retrospect, everyone has actually been saying this from the beginning. It's just... obviously I don't have this problem, so it's been hard to fully comprehend and accept, particularly 'cause this means I can't participate in fandom before I'm ready to quit, more or less.

It's not that there's not an overarching story in Sherlock, in my opinion. It's just what a lot of the meta fans wanted was the opposite of a surprise or rug-pull: we wanted everything to coalesce and really come together seamlessly, so as to validate all the time and effort spent on analysis in the first place, I think. It's an issue I should recognize, since I initially wrote about it in TFP as the 'transgressive writer's problem'. Like, people were super excited to write more meta with TAB 'cause it validated so much of our emotional analyses of HLV and the rest of Series 3 from Sherlock's perspective. And because the plot didn't really progress very much, it was easy to focus on the satisfying climax of Sherlock's arc, as I wrote about the waterfall scene. As per the recent discussion, most people are looking for emotional continuity in fandom, and TAB delivered... whereas Mofftiss were apparently interested in transgressive plotting turning all the existing genre-related weirdness up to 11, as I said in reply to @marsdaydream's critique, and using Mary to 'change and illuminate the path of the show', as Moffat said. For the most part, in terms of the meta fan community, this... didn't work out.

A lot of the complaints seem to be about the illogical or retconned stuff like Reichenbach, or plot twists Mofftiss did 'for fun' or as a genre flourish (a lot to do with Mary's storyline). Ultimately, it's all because the show *is* actually still about Sherlock and John, in the end. As I said in my comparison of the plotting in Sherlock and Indiana Jones, the problem is that a lot of people didn't know what to expect by Series 3, I think, and the introduction of Mary's big plot twist in HLV set a lot of theories in motion. Except this time, perhaps even more so than with Reichenbach, Mofftiss had to be really careful about resolving the emotional fallout, to tie everything together. But because this show is still about Sherlock, TST didn't tackle John and Mary's relationship as directly as it could have: same problem as with TSoT. The fact is, you can't really focus on John and Mary in a 'normal' way 'cause that would leave out Sherlock... and the whole show is about Sherlock. You really need to dwell on his angst 'cause he's the POV character, more or less. I know that's not satisfying 'cause it's a technical answer, but sometimes technical answers are all there is anymore.

I also think having the show being all about Sherlock and John-- but platonically, blessed by the wife-- just feels weird and regressive in a way that can't be fixed by Mary being a cool assassin who's 'one of the boys'. As far as I can tell, most people who really welcome Mary do so in *spite* of her past, not because of it. She just gets forced into her TEH/TSoT persona in people's minds, so in a way, HLV was actually a pointless diversion. People seem to resent those when watching a show for characterization rather than plot (which was the intent with BBC Sherlock). Characterization fans are interested in continuity and explicit resolutions to emotional arcs, not plot stuff. Watching for plot stuff requires a different attitude.

I guess it shouldn't be surprising meta writing suffers when that emotional continuity suffers-- that ability fans have to tell themselves a continuous story based on the canon. As I've noted in the Indiana Jones post, theme is all-important: the ability to determine what the story is *about*, even if it's 'wrong'. I think that's what suffered with Series 4. People didn't know what was the point of it all, if we returned to the beginning with only subtle surface changes (though I still think there's a significant difference underneath). Without an apparent purpose, only disappointment remains, so here we are... wandering in the desert of meaningless sands, as far as the eye can see, with fanfiction the only oasis in sight. I do have to say, thank god for Regency and Roaring Twenties AUs and classic novel fusions. There's my promised land, these days.

[thisisevenharderthannamingablog]

(1) Hello! I've seen many of your posts and meta and love your analysis of the story/characters, and with everything happening (or not happening) on the show lately, I was wondering if there is a point throughout the entirety of the series that you think they started to go off the rails? For me, S4 felt like a hot mess but finished with a fun finale and a great cliff-hanger leading into a fantastic S5A Camelot arc which could have easily been a full season. Since then, I feel like things have be

en on this downhill spiral with the writers not really knowing what to do with these characters anymore, rehashing the same storylines/drama/angst. They created such rich, dynamic characters throughout those first three seasons, and now they seem to have forgotten how to write for them, or perhaps it’s boredom. S3 seemed like it would have been a fantastic series finale, everything was, for the most part, wrapped up tidily with happy endings all around, and I often wonder if perhaps that was

the intent, not anticipating needing to write more and that’s why things have felt so off/forced ever since? Obviously not looking for answers on behalf of the writers, but curious as to your take on the progression of the stories as a whole. Seemed like things were done very deliberately early on, but not so much anymore. Perhaps it’s just me though and I missing something that a rewatch of the season/series as a whole will reveal, like the writers did indeed know exactly what they were doi

ng and where they were headed the whole time. Thank you again for sharing all your metas and posts, and for any insight you can provide with my very long and rambly question! :)

Wow! First of all, thank you. I have very much enjoyed writing about this show over the past few years. I’m delighted to hear that it’s provided some amusement to others in turn. :)

I’m not sure it’s possible to pinpoint “the” moment when things went south. I feel like there’s more than one factor at play.

First, I think they had a multi-year skeleton plot for SOME of the characters at the outset. They obviously did for Emma. I will grudgingly consider the idea that they had a plan for Regina, however little I enjoy the results. If they had one for Snowing, they threw it out when Ginny got pregnant. Rumple I’m not so sure about. I don’t think that plan was enormously detailed, though, at least in the later years; I feel like they’ve been winging it more every season.

This has led them to a bit of a stop and start pacing problem, like when 5a had everything in the universe crammed into it and 5b dawdled along without doing much, and now S6 has been largely spent treading water. They’ve run out of meat for Emma’s story. For Regina it seems like the idea they had, they did not execute very well, while Rumple’s current plot is something of a retread of his origin story.

So that’s one problem. I have sympathy for this one. They had no idea when they started it how many years they would have to tell the story. Pretty difficult to spread out your plots evenly in that case.

On a related note, most of the world-building has clearly been done just-in-time, leading to the rampant inconsistencies we all know and love. This one I do not have much sympathy for. It annoys me. These problems are largely avoidable. .

Second! Disney meddling was clearly A Thing in 4a, like holy shit what were they thinking. The episode summaries on Wikipedia are telling in their length. They are impossible to summarize, because there is too much going on, and the stories don’t mesh well at all. (I’ve got meta analyzing the problems with that arc as an entity, so I won’t go into that here.)

S4 also seems to be when the story… disconnected from itself, to some extent? I didn’t hate 4b like some people did, but I feel that it suffered a lot from that “just in time mythology” practice. So much of that arc felt off the cuff and clumsy - and none of it has ever been referred to again except in passing.

Remember back in S3, how rooted everything that happened was in the recent history of the main characters? And now we’ve got drive-by appearances by characters who are supposed to be incredibly important – Ingrid, Maleficent, Chloe, Lily, Hades – many of whom by rights should fall under the “family” umbrella that ties the show together, but have never been mentioned before, and will never be mentioned again.

This is a form of lowering the stakes, of reducing the consequences to the characters as a result of their choices. If life-shattering events happen on the regular and no one in the story even notices, the audience stops caring, too.  

Maybe 4a threw them off their stride, I don’t know, but it seems like they never quite recovered afterward. They have had great episodes and decent arcs, but they lost something. Adam and Eddy in particular have done a worse and worse job with the episodes they personally write starting with the 4a finale.

Which leads us to problem number three, in the current writer’s room. I haven’t seen Lost, so I have no idea what their writing was like in that series. I don’t know if this is a case of people who need editing not getting the constructive feedback they need, if they’re distracted by other projects, if they’re bored, if there was some change of personnel that had a major ripple effect, or what.

They wrote some fantastic early episodes. They were grim (“Heart is a Lonely Hunter”) and quirky (“Dreamy”) and they brought the story home with a bang (“A Land Without Magic”). They wrote my all-time fave “New York City Serenade,” for Pete’s sake.

And then S4 happened, since when they have written some of the hands-down worst episodes of this show. “Heroes and Villains” was an incoherent mess (which I actually took it upon myself to rewrite). “Dreamcatcher” was meh. “Swan Song” gleefully trampled over acres of relevant show mythology, relied on dubious characterization, and stated its own theme out loud five times, sign of a timid writer. “Souls of the Departed”… had some issues, and the less said about “An Untold Story” the better (for my blood pressure). And so it goes.

They seem determined to own the start and the ending of each season, but those episodes seem less and less connected to each other and to the rest of the story. The S3 finale was a thematic capstone of that season, based strongly on family, home, and new love. The S4 finale was fun, but sloppy. Since 4b was already thematically dubious, the connection to the preceding arc (you make yourself) wasn’t strong, and there was no unity at all with 4a. The S5 finale wasn’t even fun and literally had nothing to do with the stuff that preceded it. So while the S3 finale worked *because of* S1, the ones since then have felt increasingly less like part of their own story.

Ironically enough, the S3 finale that was supposed to be all about not changing anything in their AU is the only one of the three that was actually allowed to have any consequences, even if they turned out to be stupid consequences. The stakes have diminished every time.

To put it bluntly, at this point they don’t seem to know what they want to *do* with the story. They’re running out of important development points for the characters, and filling in with enough padding to open a couch factory. Cause and effect appear unreliable. They are recycling entire scenes from the same actual season – did no one notice? did someone notice and not bother speaking up? did someone get overruled? ‘Cause none of those are good things.

Character dynamics sound the same notes as they did two or three seasons ago. That’s jarring, because this is not otherwise written as an episodic, time stands still kind of show. They’ve always had a problem with writing toward an effect they want rather than figuring out the effect from the causes, but it seems to have gotten worse over the course of the show. It gets even worse when the characters appear to all have recurring amnesia regarding their own recent lives.

So… yeah. I don’t know what happened to them in S4, but it seems like that’s when they got off track, and it’s been getting worse.

Some negativity to start the day. :) Thanks for all the kind words. I am sure the S6 post-game analysis is going to be intense!