#moon's ship talk

[youhavelessproof]

reminder that even if you don't ship batcest you should be upset with DC sanitizing their found families. 🩵

if you like fanfic where the Batfamily is a perfect loving family with no issues, more power to you, but you should still be upset about the current state in canon. because liking something in fanfic is not the same as liking something in canon.

story potential is actively being taken away from us because no one is allowed to have complex feelings about each other. Dick and Bruce aren't allowed their impossible to name relationship, Dick and Jason aren't allowed their love/hate relationship, Dick and Cass aren't allowed to have mutual but different negative feelings about each other, Dick and Babs' relationship has to be squeaky clean, etc. etc.

what's the point of having a group of characters to focus on if they're never allowed to have lasting conflict?

found family should never be forced to follow the heteronormative nuclear family propaganda we've all been fed and yet here we are. Bruce doesn't need to be Dick's dad for it to be understood that Bruce helped form Dick into who he is today. Dick and Jason don't need to be strictly brothers for them to be family. there is more to family than strict labels. especially in the context of queer history.

there is nothing wrong with liking fanon, but letting it be applied to canon without a second thought isn't good for anyone. I promise you that even if you're enjoying this now, it will be detrimental for canon stories.

and before you think to yourself that you don't care about canon anyway, yes you do. these characters wouldn't exist in fanon if not for the fact that canon existed. you might not have read a single comic in your life and never plan to, but you should still care because comics are the only reason you have these characters to begin with.

I have so many more thoughts but I'll end with this. Dick especially will never fit into a picture perfect family according to nuclear family standards because, in his own words, "Nightwing belongs to two families." (he's talking about the Titans here fyi. because the Titans are also family. family that is constantly dating each other.)

[youhavelessproof]

you know what, no. I'm not putting this in the tags right now because we just lost Jaydick and I am not losing Brudick too. I am not letting y'all disrespect comic history just because ew Dick got adopted when he was an adult and they have an age gap.

I'm not qualified to talk about the history of gay adult adoption so instead here's some resources:

https://jgspl.org/same-sex-adult-adoption-a-result-of-marriage-inequality/ - https://web.archive.org/web/20240507221333/https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/11/how-marriage-inequality-prompts-gay-partners-to-adopt-one-another/281546/ - https://lawandinequality.org/2021/03/24/where-theres-not-a-will-theres-a-way-what-we-can-learn-from-same-sex-adult-adoption/ - https://web.archive.org/web/20240511124237/https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/19/magazine/the-lost-history-of-gay-adult-adoption.html - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_adult_adoption

tl;dr when people couldn't get married, guess what they'd do? whatever they could to make sure they were always in each other's lives. when you are not allowed to love who you love the way that you do, you make it work. because they can't stop us from loving each other.

(important to note that Dick got adopted in 2001. y'know what wasn't legal in New Jersey in 2001? Gay marriage. also important to know that that's about 60 years after Dick was intro-ed in the comics.)

I really need y'all to understand that Batman and Robin, Bruce and Dick, have been around since the 1940's. that is such a different world in terms of queer history. like I really need you to sit and think about that.

Dick was explicitly described as Bruce's best friend for many many many years. the most familial it got was "brothers" which- how often are two male characters described as "brotherly" to justify the close the relationship they have without actually admitting that they're clearly in love with each other?

Dick and Bruce used to share a bed, had multiple fake weddings (I believe, might have just been once but still,) were explicitly partners in everything, are basically soulmates (Bruce will always have a Dick that is a multiversal constant,) Dick is described as the most important person in Bruce's life- none of that has to be read as romantic, but saying it can't be romantic is devaluing how much they mean to each other.

for fuck's sake part of the reason the Comics Code Authority existed was because Batman and Robin were too gay. this is not a fucking joke.

"Batman comics were among those criticized when the comic book industry came under scrutiny with the publication of psychologist Fredric Wertham's book Seduction of the Innocent in 1954. Wertham's thesis was that children imitated crimes committed in comic books, and that these works corrupted the morals of the youth. Wertham criticized Batman comics for their supposed homosexual overtones and argued that Batman and Robin were portrayed as lovers. Wertham's criticisms raised a public outcry during the 1950s, eventually leading to the establishment of the Comics Code Authority, a code that is no longer in use by the comic book industry."

the issue was that they were both men. because that is always the fucking problem. they weren't concerned with whatever issues you have with Brudick, they just didn't want gay people in comics.

need I remind you of the other Comic Code Authority rules? from this same time, so 1950's-1960's.

"Crimes shall never be presented in such a way as to create sympathy for the criminal, to promote distrust of the forces of law and justice, or to inspire others with a desire to imitate criminals."

"Policemen, judges, government officials, and respected institutions shall never be presented in such a way as to create disrespect for established authority."

these aren't people actually concerned with what's in media for the "right reasons" this is the same "think of the children!" bit that we still hear.

there were literally comic book burnings because of the fearmongering around this shit.

frankly, I don't give a shit if you do or don't ship Brudick. I don't care how you view their relationship. but it is an important piece of queer history. I'm not joking. comics are seen as nerdy or whatever now, but there were generations where this was the standard media that kids, especially kids in lower income areas, grew up consuming.

put some respect on this ships fucking name.

you see it as a father/son relationship? fucking go for it, but don't use that to erase us like people have been trying to for decades.

look, I like Damijon. and I like that Jon is canonically bi. I think these characters are really important to each other and the idea of Super Sons is adorable. but the impact of these two ships are not comparable.

Jon being canonically bi ruffled some feathers, Bruce and Dick being in a perceived gay relationship changed the world of comics.

Top AO3 Batfamily Ships Bracket: Round 6

[conspicuous-clown-car]

AAAAAAAAAUUUGGHHHHH

themb ;w;

[honeycircuits]

Your f/o stopping you before going out because they need to kiss you again and again and again <3

[alexandraisyes]

The cutest reminder ever that the way family works in TSAMS canon is that two parties have to be in mutual agreement that they are family. If one party doesn't agree then they aren't family. Parties can revoke familial ties whenever they want and that means they are no longer family.

"Code Relation" theory is stupid because you're then implying that Eclipse is Sun and Moon's child. Which he isn't. Or that Killcode is somehow Moon's child and his brother at the same time that he's Eclipse, Lunar and Bloodmoon's "father" at the same time that they're Sun and Moon's grand children. Like, we're seeing the issue here, right?

Don't make things more complicated than it has to be. Just accept the fact that family is literally determined by a verbal agreement between two animatronics and nothing else because none of them were born from wombs. That means respecting canon when characters in canon decide that they aren't comfortable being family (like Eclipse) or just straight-up disown everyone (like Bloodmoon). It's okay to have headcanons, but don't try to push them onto canon.

[youhavelessproof]

okay sorry I was just going to put my thoughts in the tags, but I talked too much so I'm putting it here.

this is so fucking real. when I first got into the fandom I really just liked the vibes Dick and Jason gave off together. they're just so appealing in their own way. but like. they're barely brothers.

sometimes it's fun for them to be more brotherly but for most of their characters' histories it was headcanon/fanon. only recent canon has established that they see each other as brothers. if that's your canon, that's fine but it wasn't always canon. and therefore you can't use it to berate other people with.

Dick was not mean to Jaybin (that is also fanon) but they weren't close. Dick offered Jason his number if Jay ever wanted to talk and that was that. and when Jason came back nothing was brotherly about them. (need I point to Bludhaven being bombed during UTRH again? Jason did not care if Dick died or at the very least did not care as much as he cared about proving a point to Bruce.)

also it's coming from the false pretense that Dick has always been like Bruce's son.

this is false as well.

Bruce has adopted Dick more recently but I would never describe their relationship as father/son until way more recently where it shifted. I personally don't love the shift but it happened.

originally Dick and Bruce were described as best friends and sometimes brothers. Dick has been mentioned many times in canon as having raised Bruce because of how stunted he was. (while yes sometimes children end up raising their parents due to trauma, this is compounded with my earlier point. their relationship is way more complicated than father/son.)

you don't have to ship Brudick and it certainly isn't a healthy ship in most cases in canon, but writing it off because they're father and son now is missing a lot of their history. (you can not ship it for so many other reasons.)

there is a reason why Robin and Batman dating was a common joke for years and years. it did not just come from a under-informed general public. it came from comic fans. all the time.

my point is that writing off batcest ships because they're incest (which is a debatable point in and of itself) is fine. you're allowed to have preferences. but you can't get mad at other people for not seeing it the same way.

.

Back when I first started to ship JayDick, I wasn't even interested in ~making it weird~ because while there is some canon basis to interpret them as adopted brothers, there is just as much to see them as just... People who know each other through Bruce. I was just interested in the toxic yaoi vibes lmao.

Seeing people's reactions to ships like JayDick and JayTim (which has even less, practically nothing of sibling ship vibes), though, made me want to write it to be specifically weird and Freudian.

Like, I get not liking the ships. There's a bunch of ships I don't like in any given fandom, but you wouldn't believe these people live in the age that GoT was a massive hit lol.

[mintypsii]

PENlS EXPLOSION SPELLLLLLL

more of them because they won't get out of my head

version without the text

[8um8le]

I like to make fun of 8ot’s shortness too, even though he’s like 10x my height

[al-luviec]

juvie buddies

[railway-lands]

i did some draaawiingggg

[youhavelessproof]

Would you mind elaborating a bit on some of the best moments with Jason and Vampire King Dick? I am probably too much of a fraidy cat to actually read DC vs Vampires (horror is not my thing at all) but I still want to know all the jaydick crumbs I would be missing.

sure thing!

so after Dick reveals himself as a vampire by ripping out Bruce's heart, (king shit,) and also kills Tim, Jason goes to try and kill him and well-

the tension is very palpable.

I cannot believe they actually put this in an official DC comic in 2022 tbh. like I could believe it in older comics because they weren't pushing the brotherly dynamic back then.

anyway, while Jason is getting turned, Oliver shoots and kills him. Jason told Ollie to do it, but I am still upset about it.

they should've been allowed to fuck at least once.

vampire Dickie has the best dom bottom energy and I love him. he's so hot and so evil. I absolutely love how he was just "I was already better than all of you and now I'm even better." let him go apeshit more often.

[youhavelessproof]

I'm not gonna all out, just full warning, but I do wanna make a couple points. (<- this was apparently a half-life. I talked a lot, but I technically didn't say everything I could've.)

1. Slade was made to be Dick's villain. like he was technically a Titans' villain, but let's be real. he was made to contrast and mirror Dick's relationship with Bruce. Deathstroke eventually just became the boogeyman for DC, but he is first and foremost there for Dick.

2. There is much less of a power dynamic in Sladick than people think there is when we're talking about the comics. Dick is younger and that can be problematic, but like. pretty sure he was an adult when they met. (19 I think. because that was how old Dick was when he originally became Nightwing.) DC keeps pushing Dick's age back, so in the current continuity who the fuck knows, but y'know.

Slade has been able to beat Dick in fights before, but mostly when Dick was younger. most their fights from, like, Nightwing '96 on either don't really have a winner or Dick wins. Slade may have won a couple more recently, I don't really know, but they're pretty evenly matched. that's kinda the point.

Slade respects Dick enough that during said Nightwing '96 run he actually tells Dick when he has a contract in Blud out of respect.

I'm not gonna show panels for everything, I just think that one is important to cite directly.

3. I'm not gonna over this on for long at all but. Renegade. Dick was not forced to be Renegade. Dick being forced to be Slade's apprentice only happened in the 2003 cartoon. never happened in the comics. Renegade was Dick's choice and he had a lot of reasons for it.

4. Slade is obsessed with Dick. has been for a long time. however that obsession is not about killing Dick. I don't know if this is a misconception, but I'm gonna put it here. not to say Slade would never kill Dick, he tried in Dark Crisis, but it's more complicated than that. again, Slade respects Dick and really respects Dick's strength. to the point of being mad when Dick does not live up to expectations. (see what I mean by mirroring Bruce in certain ways?)

in no way am I saying Dick and Slade are healthy, I think they would make each other worse (affectionate), but they aren't what a lot of people seem to think they are.

Dick is very capable of dealing with Slade, that's why Slade likes him so much. they have less of a power imbalance and more a power struggle.

anyway this is longer than I thought it would be but onto Jayroy. this isn't gonna be positive, but I'll try and be reasonable and not aggressive about it.

Roy was made directly based off of Dick. Speedy intro-ed into comics in 1941 after Robin in 1940. they still have similarities in their origins, but it was even more obvious back then. though Speedy was clearly not as beloved as Robin has he apparently disappeared for a bit. point is: while they weren't made for each other, Dick and Roy have been connected since their creation.

now, I don't think that fact in and of itself discredits Jayroy at all. ships can come from anywhere and it doesn't really matter if Dick and Roy are always going to be the best friend/rivals they are because that doesn't mean Roy and Jason can't be together too.

however.

the New 52/Rebirth/post-Flashpoint whatever continuity has not been kind to Roy. it has not been kind to a lot of characters, but I find Roy's case especially bad. (partly because he's one of my favorite characters.)

I really need to stress that Roy was not underutilized before RHATO. post-crisis Roy was extremely fleshed out and interesting and a very developed character. he was not a character that had been forgotten. yes addiction was a part of his stories, but he was so much more than that.

I don't want to suddenly turn this into a character study, but when I think of Roy I think of how interesting of a case study he is in loyalty. I think of how kind and caring he is. I think of how much he respects heroes, especially ones that have been doing longer than he has, but how that doesn't change his ability to call them out for their shit.

RHATO did not take characters that had nothing. it took Roy and Kori, characters that have had a lot of love put into their characters, and did whatever it wanted with them. that is fine for fanfic, but for it to be in a published comic by DC is frankly sad.

I don't really wanna talk about Jason's characterization here, but I do want to hit on one key point. Roy absolutely still loved Cheshire after shit she did, but there was a reason he did not stay with her. Roy does not feel good about loving her, but he cannot control his heart.

I've heard Roy and Chesh's relationship used to fight for and against Jayroy in every way but the key fact is this: even if Roy loved Jason, it would not feel good for him.

Roy is someone that loves people in spite of their flaws. he sees them clearly, but he finds it more important to focus on the good of people than the bad. not that it's black and white, but that is his general thinking.

I believe in the right circumstances, Roy would try and help Jason. would try and lead him on the right path. (if we ignore Jason's actions towards Dick (someone Roy is terrifyingly devoted to) and Mia (part of Roy's found family.)) however, I also think it would destroy him inside.

all that to say: ship whatever you want. I don't like Jayroy because of how it came about and some other things, but I think they are interesting things you could do with it. I just ask that you don't vote for it because it's the healthier option.

first of all, I've already talked about the connotations of "healthy" in a comic universe, but also it's just not. Jason would not be good for Roy and that's okay. ships don't have to be healthy to be good.

and I would also appreciate people stop erasing Dick and Roy's relationship (even if it's all platonic) but I think that's asking a bit too much. DC seems happy to erase that all away. :(

also sorry that I talked so long what the fuck.

tl;dr comic Sladick isn't healthy but it's also not what a lot of fandom seems to think it is and Jayroy started because DC decided fuck Roy's character so please look into post-crisis Roy he's a very good boy.

ship whatever you want, this is just some information and opinions. o7

Top AO3 Batfamily Ships Bracket: Losers Round 1

Are you sad your favorite ship lost in the first round? Don't worry! They still have a chance to win the Losers Bracket, a mini tournament for all ships that got eliminated in the first round.

[lloydfrontera]

so i was crying about javier always greeting lloyd with "it's been a while master lloyd" regardless of how long it's been since they last talked, about lloyd telling him they're gonna be mistaken for the cowherd and the weaver girl if someone hears javier say that to him and lloyd knowing exactly how long it's been since he and javier met in person, down to the very day, "107 years, 7 months and 17 days". as one does. and then i got curious about whether there was any significance to the fact there's so many sevens in that number and i-

right. yeah cool that's. that's really. such. such a funny coincidence. yeah. really swell. what. what are the chances of that uh.

[lunar-cyn]

Y’all, we’ve done it

(This was posted by Freddy’s VA)

[honeycircuits]

For people who have multiple f/os

Imagine all of your f/os in a single house, how does it go? Well? Horribly bad? Or is there a bit of calm before chaos ensues?

*proship safe*

[charmtale]