#nettles discourse

[ride-thedragon]

To say something on the topic, it's one thing to not like the Daemon and Nettles romantic relationship plotline. You have every right. It's another thing, however, to reduce Nettles to that plot line and want to take away her entire narrative arc and give it to someone else or remove it (that doesn't make sense).

Daemon is not her father. You know why?

Because Nettles is most likely not Valyrian and Daemon was in the Stepstones at that time.

Daemon is also not her father because she's an adult who's lived alone her entire life. She doesn't need one.

Nettles isn't Rhaena, Baela or a COTF. You know why?

Because she simply isn't. There is not one inclination in the books that she is and in the show the only reason it's popular in the fandom is because you think black character are interchangeable and don't value their stories as individuals. Rhaena is already set up as the dragon rider she is in the books. Baela is already fighting. The five white children of Rhaenyra are never interchanged, but these three girls (one with no relation) are?

That doesn't make sense.

Daemon and Nettles were most likely romantic or sexual. You know why?

Because Daemon has a repeated pattern of behaviour. Something he repeats with Rhaenyra, Mysaria, and Nettles (even Laena to an extent)

Because Daemon is a weird man, and it's Westeros where weird men thrive. One of the arguments with her is literally that she isn't as young as the girls he slept with before. His morality isn't up for question.

Daemon would because she's a young dragonrider.

Nettles isn't going to be written out. You know why?

She's important to the narrative. One of George's favourite characters that he parallels with Daenerys, lives on past Daemon and exists before him, is one of the most anticipated adaptations and is the question in the narrative of Targaryens and their control over dragons.

I'm not going to argue on these points or even push them anymore. At this point, if it hasn't stuck, you're writing fanon and want it to be canon. I'm not gonna deter you all. Just leave her alone and write fan fiction. Or at least pretend to care about her outside of him.

[pureworlds]

also…. how are they going to give rhaena the nettles arc, but not the screentime? sorry for going on, but this season had the most underwhelming writing for the characters. we saw nothing with rhaena. okay! so you wrote nettles out. PLEASE GIVE RHAENA SOMETHING!!!!!!!!! i can’t do another season of this. i might cry

[mejcinta]

🤣🤣🤣 no, no,no I need to get this outta my chest.

Whole of yesterday Twitter's been fighting about Baela would make a better Queen than Alicent and that Alicent being beloved of the smallfolk is propaganda.

Anyway, some loser deflected and started whining "Well...sexist Aegon was gonna make statues for his BROTHERS, where's one for his SISTER Helaena?"

Booooooo!!! They were told smack that ahem...Aegon literally engraved Helaena and Alicent's names in HISTORY as the only True Queenz.

Anyway, we all know that had Daemon survived, that Maegor 2.0 woulda sent out search parties for Nettles and named her his Queen. Forget Rhaenyra. 🤣 But they ain't ready for that conversation lol.

[liaa--qb]

do you think that team black Stans takes this hotd war topic too much And They are very much hypocrite ?? I was new in this fandom and stand with team black. I hate to say this many of them spoil whole fun on Twitter debate.I have seen their jealousy alot at Aemond getting more attention than some of their characters by audience.They made stories about him like he r@ped Alys.They would have hated daeron if he was there since first season lmao. What's your take on team black stans. Don't mistake me as a Aemond wife. I am against team green but admitting I kinda liked his character only as villian. Helaena is the only person I love in team green

EXACTLY ! This..... EXACTLY this.. see firstly m not a team supporter or stan here. I am just enjoying d show till it's tolerable😅. I just want a good show dat's it. I am not on Twitter thankfully, I am well aware what goes on there n you can hate Aemond all u want. He's a villian ofcourse 🙏🏻

Fire and blood was boring but show has chance to be better atleast though if they ever want to try😑... Regarding ur take , it's gonna be bit long now as I don't do this long stuff unless it's a fic😭

lemme tell the truth now.... ik many dumb ones are not gonna like it 😂

yes there are majority of hypocrite team black Stans who would make up these bullshits mainly with Aemond like "they gave Jace's qualities to Aemond, Aemond r*ped Alys". Jace's one was the most random 😂

bitch... like where you thought after reading the book n watching show that they gave Jace's qualities to Aemond 💀😭 ??? Where... I read the book too😂. My friends who actually introduced me to hotd who are book purists too , even they laughed on this theory when I told them.

" Jace and Aegon were adapted exactly the way they were in the books ! " It's a fact Listen I love Tom Glynn Carney too (like how can you not🥵) but sorry to those Aegon girlies who were just saying that they forcefully made Aegon a r*pist. He was like this in the book very much. They both were shown correctly how they should have been in s1.

Both green and blacks were given some good and bad shots equally in show. Bad n good shots for God's sake doesn't mean one is Angel and other one being devil. It's about writing or storyline regarding both teams. N this whole jealousy or hypocrisy towards Aemond of some team black stans is nothing but a childish stupidity to me and it's obvious that Aemond would get alot attention in show than many N y not ? 🤦🏻‍♀️

[ top 3 characters from both teams will get attention. Show will be divided into two teams from Team black it's Rhaenyra, Daemon , Colrys n (someone with corlys) who would be focused more N from team Green it would Alicent, Aegon, Aemond. Majority of Attention would be given to Rhaenyra, Alicent n Aegon as they are main 3 . It should be very much clear to every person who read the book , to me it was as I read only after watching the S1 trailer. Wasn't this very much obvious in the book. ]

Also Aemond never r*ped or assaulted Alys in the book. We never got inside of their relationship in book. He can in the show though🤷🏻‍♀️.... if makers want to. He took her as war prize which was very much common for every guy winning war.

Honestly Alys was far yrs older fucking powerful witch😭 she would eat Aemond alive be fr if she wanted to. She would have killed him way easily in starting itself . Yes there relationship was problematic n it was power imbalance both sides. They both were using each other. Aemond was clearly under her spell or either for her powers and so was Alys. Who was taking her best from Aemond's position whatever she could get from both sides.

If Grrm lit wanted to show that Aemond r*ped Alys he would have done it very well like he does this with his all other characters who were actually r@pists but he didn't. On the contrary side he wrote Aemond as evil goth twink who never wanted to scare the ladies at court n wore eye patch bcz of that😂. Same guy was making out with his floris and fell hard under spell of strong bastard witch calling her 'my lady !'

Let me clear that also Aemond not being a r@pist doesn't make him a less bad person either. He was a sadist tyrant n murderer psychopath in book. This is what made him a villian or bad guy. But the problem with some team black Stans is that they knew that audience will start giving him the ' typical Kylo ren' treatment which he's getting. ( Idk how one cannot see this coming after reading dance of d in FNB, it was very much predicted I knew it). They don't want to give any good points to any team green characters in their silly game. Like as if audience don't hype bad guys more than good guys😑.

Same way when same audience hyped Daemon more than Harwin then they don't have any problem but if audience likes Aemond n Daeron more than team black kids then their ass hate to see this n would write whole new made up reasons for not to like any team green member while cheering any other character which they like for same thing.

Funny thing is that many team black daemon lovers would write how he was right man, he killed all r*pist from city while this is the same daemon who fucks literally little girls who are prostitutes n loves it which is very much written in book. Ofcourse mysaria was with him since her childhood. As prostitutes have no other options. Taking prince like daemon and Aegon was better for their survival.

He is canon p*dophile in book but yes if Aemond is r@pist then Daemon's account of doing r@pe is way higher than Aemond even before when Aemond was born. Now why would those black Stans admit this ? 😂 never....... Believe me when I say that some of them are that level of jokers who would say that Maegor is good and daeron is bad just because he is from team green.

I really like daemon too n daemon had his bad qualities n good qualities both 🧡atleast I like the way he is . It clearly shows that some Stans they cannot even like or hate the character for what they are. They are dumbass kids watching some cartoon fight with two team. They just want to hate one team for any reason n like other team for any random reason

Mind you....many of them even hate Helaena unnecessary but same time would love Laena and for what ????🤡🤡

what I hated regarding Aemond in show :-

now things I accept that Aemond not killing Luce was very much wrong and I hated that too. Because it was not good for plot tbh for me. It's just messing up with already messed up world building. Aemond as a villian got a very much reason to Luce n y should he not ? now that's thing I genuinely think that was done wrong regarding Aemond's character, people hating it is very much justified because it very much makes luc's death stupid rather than sad.

But making up reasons like they gave everything to Aemond like they didn't made Aemond totally bad during drift mark scene as we get sympathy for rhaena n we understood her reason for being angry on Aemond atleast n Aemond insulting her. but in books it's lit Nyra's kids who were not minding their own business n Aemond was just beating them n throwing them far away from him instead of killing them with rock like in the show but ofcourse this wasn't visible to team black Stans. Because in the book honestly Aemond was very much correct during drift mark scene.

They removed viserys's taunting Aemond regarding dragon which was very important.

They showed Harwin beating Criston but we all know it was Criston who took both Harwin and Daemon easily and so many of I started to count regarding team green were done equally wrong.

just see the dumbness and hyporcrisy I once saw Darkling and rhys Stans saying bullshit about Aegon and Aemond 😂😂. Same Darkling who physically assaulted Alina, abused her. The one who gave little girls like Genya to get r@ped by the old hag king for his benefit n

the way LB wrote him I can very say that she hated him as well. And Rhys is whole another level bullshit 😂if started to write. They were not even a good written bad guys. These same idiots would typing whole ass reasons to like them. It's funny that Darkling supporters would hate Otto hightower as if they aren't the same thing 🤣. Otto slays more as compared Darkling.

many of them pretend to care about representation saying that 'Jace should not have Sara n it would hurt baela n would make her unwanted ' while same time giving thousand reasons of there was nothing bet Nettles and Daemon so that it would not harm their Daemyra. So many of them were happy when there wasn't any news regarding nettles. ( It's not only team black , many of team green stans r equally hypocrite here you asked me of team black )

[bohemian-nights]

Nettles survived the streets of Driftmark by herself as a child.

Nettles tamed a wild dragon with not a drop of “dragons blood” in her. (Nettles also became the first and the last rider of said dragon).

Nettles got Daemon Targaryen (Valyrian/Targaryen Supremacist and Rogue Prince) to fall in love with her without even trying. So much so he was willing to kill and be killed for her.

Nettles (along with her dragon) survived a war that killed not only thousands but also wiped out more than half the Targaryens alive at the point, including the ruling monarchs.

Nettles became one of the worlds last dragonriders.

Nettles was worshiped as a Fire Witch by the Burned Men. Presumably long after her death as well.

If “fans” can look at that and still say she was “bland and unimportant” I don’t know what the words bland and unimportant mean.

Nothing to add because you hit the nail on the head. Nettles truly is that girl 🙌🏽

[witheredoffherwitch]

i don't like where these leaks are heading...especially the part where daeron would be cut from the show. they're going to divide his book plot between aemond and helaena which will validate #those shippers. i will be honest that the show did give hints to a romance between them, but when the alys leaked audition was released i completely thought they scrapped that idea entirely. this is a HUGE change so if this happens, anything can happen. the characters and the plot will be wildly different...most specially aemond. to me it seems they're cutting him to give way for helaena. and sure i agree that it would be good for a mother to get her revenge but aemond would be divided between harrenhal and the reach. this leaves no room for alysmond to develop or happen. it only opens up room for helaena to be the one who has some connection with alys if alys has seer powers too and not aemond. i now fear that they're really making #that ship to happen because it would give aemond and helaena a good reason to commit war crimes and the revenge on daemon to make more sense. another concern is that they'll cut alys and aemond's son because this would mean he already has son who died and was relevant for the greens motivations. they'll just exciuse it because everything ends with aegon the younger's coronation.

i hate thinking about this at all but those writers would like drama like this. i just hope those leaks are dead wrong but these leakers have been reliable thus far

Hi nonnie,

I'm at odds with most of the opinions expressed here. This will be a lengthy post, so buckle up:

First, I don't think the show provided any significant hints about the Helaemond ship. People are citing two instances to back up this claim - the first one is of baby Aemond talking about fulfilling his duty, had his mother betrothed Helaena to him instead of Aegon. The second one is in episode 9 where the older Aemond busts out this incredible line of dialogue: "I am next in line for throne. Should they come looking for me, I intend to be found." Both of these scenes were set up to establish Aemond's primary characteristics which alligns with him being duty-bound all while having great ambitions for the throne. Now, why would Aemond assume that he was next in line for throne when Jaeherys exists? And to that I offer *in D&D's voice*: AeMonD kINd oF fOrGoT aBoUt HIs NepHeWS!

It's a writing discrepancy and you will find many such inconsistencies throughout the series. Right from Laenor's age in episode 1 to episode 5, Alicent warning Aegon in episode 6 and then acting shocked when Otto says the same thing in episode 9, Luke acting self-conscious about his 'bastard' status in episode 8 only to laugh in the face of someone he maimed shortly after; and many more. Most characters have some major inconsistencies that can be attributed to post production rewrites and editing.

It's possible I'm mistaken, but it looks like people generally scoff at this ship beyond Twitter and Tumblr. On Reddit, the majority of comments are cynical or dismissive towards this pairing. Even those who think it might actually be canon have voiced their disappointment with the theory. In response to you mentioning the changes being made in the show, I completely agree - they are not favorable to TG fans. It appears that the narrative is now being heavily biased towards Rhaenyra's side, with the introduction of Dyana and the potential omission of Daeron from the storyline. None of these developments are positive!

Now with Daeron's storyline, I am sure it will be divided between Aemond, Gwayne and Cole in the chance that he is absent from the show. But I am confused as to which arc do you think will be adopted by Helaena here. I don't think they will have her fighting actively besides her brothers in the show either. They may have changed Rhaenyra's character development in Season 1 to make us think that may happen, but I am not sure about Helaena. She's a dreamer: she might serve a larger purpose later when it comes to predicting the Dance or even the possible demise of House Targaryen as they've already introduced Aegon's dream in the show. Other than that, I don't think she'll take part in any battle strategy.

Now this is obviously my point of view but once again, I am open to discussion. If anyone has taken the time to read through this post and wants to share their opinion, please feel free to contribute.

That's all! 🤗

[cade-bentley]

"Hey! Nettle!" He waved her in from inside the bar, recognizing the tribute from the Tribute Parade, and respecting the hell out of the strategy of making out on national television. "I wanted to give you some champagne in like a... a congrats for you and your girl, I guess. And also a 'hell yeah' for the parade." Maybe a congrats was a little in poor taste, but who would turn down nice champagne?

@nettlegooseberry

[onlyangel4]

never going back. ln4. glen powell. part one. smau.

cheater!lando norris x reader. glen powell x reader

when lando cheats on reader she makes a promise to herself, to never go back to him and by doing so she meets someone that treats her just how she deserves to be treated.

faceclaim: scarlett leithhold

part two

f1wags

liked by user1, user2, user3 and 56,829 others

f1wags: some of you may forget but lando norris does actually have a girlfriend, y/n y/ln is an american based model and has been dating lando for a year and a half. lando never comments on their relationship saying that he likes to keep their personal lives private. y/n is in the paddock in australia to watch the race today for the first time in a little under a year.

view all 14,293 comments

user1: i always forget that they are dating

user2: hasn't he been getting really close to one of mclaren's influencer guests this week

user3: this is how i find out lando is actually taken

y/ninsta posted a story

written: good luck my love

influencer posted a story

written: been in australia all week watching these guys get ready, can't wait for race day.

y/ninsta posted a story

y/ninsta

liked by lilymhe, alexalbon, logansargeant and 872,394 others

y/ninsta: so i was not going to say anything about what happened in australia but i have seen some discourse online blaming @.influencer for what happened and that is just wrong. she is the reason that i found out something was wrong. she had been lied to just as much as me. i don't know if i will ever talk about exactly what happened that day but please be kind. remember that you only get 5% of the full story online.

a little personal update: i am now back living in texas full time and boy is it nice to be home. i hope everyone is doing well, i love you all.

comments on this post have been disabled

lilymhe posted a story tagging y/ninsta

written: my girl is visiting us in monaco and lets just say some questionable choices have been made

y/ninsta posted a story

written: a change was needed

alexalbon posted a story tagging lilymhe and y/ninsta

written: lily is now claiming that she will be quitting golf to become a hair stylist

y/ninsta

liked by lilymhe, alexalbon, landonorris and 762,394 others

tagged: lilymhe and alexalbon

y/ninsta: monaco trip dump. a massive thank you to mom and dad for having me

view all 14,384 comments

user4: lando needs to get the fuck out of her likes

user5: you finally have your smile back y/n i am so happy for you

lilymhe: i miss you already

y/ninsta: i miss you too lils

alexalbon: the house actually feels empty without our child

y/ninsta: say the word and i will move in permanently

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[ride-thedragon]

Nettles Discourse.

I'm a big Nettles fan. I accept that the bias I have towards her can affect my judgement when it comes to negative discussions, no one likes their favourite characters to be undersold or talked about in a negative regard. That being said we've lost the plot yet again when it comes to her.

I know I can be out there with my claims about her (George literally wrote asoiaf to support her narrative), but I do think she's often disregarded about the way she impacts the narrative. Because she does, she leaves some of the biggest questions that carry over into the main series in fire and blood.

. Was she a witch that seduced a prince

. Did her and Daemon spend the rest of their days in the Vale.

. Did she create the burned men

. Is she actually Valyrian

. Can non Valyrians ride and claim dragons.

. What happened to her and Sheepstealer (the dragonskull found in the main series...)

For who she is as a character, she's so misrepresented in the fandom, while I know I'm annoying about her, it's within good reason.

That's without the paedophilia discourse surrounding her character, the race and racism discourse surrounding her character at all times. Someone conflating her popularity and race isn't entirely incorrect.

The way people undermine her written story because they don't like her. The way they will make race and class the forefront of that undermining is quite insane when you see it.

There is also this air of mystery intended by her character that allows for theories and tie-ins to the main plot.

I've said that she mirrors Dany in some regards, which is true. They have a lot of parallels, like Rhaena and Sansa or Baela and Arya.

All this is to say that even though she isn't a main character in Fire and Blood, she's still important, and race does affect the perception of her a lot, which is an issue. We see the same thing with the popularity of Baela and Rhaena in the show, especially. She isn't a pov character or a main focus by any means, but her mystery alone would've had her 10 times more popular if she was a white alternative to that familial ship.

AND WHILE WE ARE HERE, DETTLES DISCOURSE.

Let's be serious.

Nettles is a child, Nettles is a victim, Nettles was groomed has no basis in the actual story.

If it's a reservation, you hold in the discourse fine, that's great but it's not an in universe thing.

She's legally an adult. She's an impoverished black girl in the narrative who's saved by a prince and a house protecting her against their world's Monarch and escapes on a dragon she claimed and she again escapes and her escape is framed as Daemon's redemption in the narrative.

When people say she was abused by Daemon, they never contextualise it in her character. She's just a poor, 16 year old at the mercy of a prince. That's unfair.

I'll be the first person to scream from the rooftops that Daemon should be held accountable for his every breath in the narrative as well as not being redeemed for all his crimes because he let my favourite character go.

But let's be clear, if someone views their story as romantic, it doesn't mean that they want paedophilia in the narrative. Nettles is closer to Book Brienne's age and perception than she is to Sansa's, two character with prominent ships with men older than them. Nettles is an adult by Westeros standards. (Daemon will burn in hell for messing with teens), but she is an adult.

It's not a question of a person's morality if they ship Daemon and Nettles. They are within the bounds of the world to do so. That's just how they choose to engage with the material instead of being critical and applying our standards to a ship.

[lemonhemlock]

how do you think helaena's arc will play out in the show? i don't see how she'll get the same ending as the book one, unless that theory about jaehaera getting maelor's storyline turns out to be true

so, this is going to be a bit of a contradiction from the helaena discourse i've seen

i think it's time we nuanced the discussion around her a little bit. yes, she is a nice person and quite jolly, too, in the books, and everyone likes her, but she IS a dragon-rider at the end of the day. so can you truly, truly be an innocent little flower when you're partaking in and perpetuating this practice?

it's no secret that i don't think so. i have written essays already explaining why i think that, essentially, accessing dragon power cannot be done without compromising part of your soul and humanity. in order to gain supernatural powers, they made human sacrifices in old valyria and practiced incest. the targaryens ditched the human sacrifices but retained incest as a practice. dragon-riding is NOT implied in asoiaf-verse to be a "good" thing.

certainly, you can argue that helaena was married against her will to her brother and she doesn't know anything else, but no one made her claim a dragon and, even IF she only did it out of social inertia, because that's what was expected of her as a targaryen princess, i don't believe you can forge a bond with a dragon and remain unchanged and unblemished as a person. and this is ultimately what fans nearly always shy away from when discussing characters like helaena and nettles, because they don't want to see their beloveds tinged with any kind of darkness at all. and i just don't think that tracks with the way asoiaf is written.

it's also no secret that helaena doesn't really have much of an arc in Fire & Blood and that that's one of the weak points of the book. she is there to fulfil the theme of the gruesome cost of war. after jaehaerys dies, she is essentially excluded from the narrative (and probably taken out of commission bc grrm has to explain away why the greens can't use dreamfyre)

and now i see there is some pushback against the idea that helaena should join the war effort because it's not feminist™ to girlbossify every character and that's just not her personality. again, i kind of agree and kind of don't. no, helaena is not a warrior lagertha-type and it wouldn't make sense to turn her into one with one more episode to go. but she IS a dragon-rider, we know that, it's book canon, too. the writers just never bothered to show her interact with dreamfyre because they are incapable of caring about anyone else other than daemon. so, in this case, seeing her on a dragon might be sudden and certainly a shock, but she DOES have that ability and she CAN and HAS flown.

i haven't seen the scene, but this particular suggestion of aemond's - i don't think it's that outrageous. yes, she perhaps would be reticent to join in battle, but she CAN at least do reconnaissance flights like baela does with moondancer, come on. they decided against having her catatonic with grief after b&c, but they're not even going to show her flying on her dragon? like that's somehow too much. that's where we draw the line. what what the entire point then? she has nothing to do. as of now, with one single episode to go, she has no arc and nearly no opinion on anything. her conversational input is about the same a talking to Siri or Alexa. she's barely even a character (and this is not to hate on helaena, but that is how they are writing her)

[mejcinta]

SARA HESS AND THE FAN-FICIFICATION OF HOUSE OF THE DRAGON.

Getting in on the discourse. Like this YT comment under the video shows, hotd is failing because of the writer(s) skill issues: I mean, Ryan and Sara...and even Miguel refuse to see how events they change have a Butterfly effect on the story and thus odd issues rear their heads and make a mess of everything e.g leaving Laenor alive was shoddily abandoned and left unexplored, Harrold Westerling was left alive too and never brought back in s2, Maelor’s absence means no punching motivation for Helaena, Aegon and Daeron, cutting Nettles means Daemon and Rhaenyra’s separation won’t pack a punch and Targaryen exceptionalism never effectively explored through the most underprivileged class and SEX in Westeros, Rhaenyra and Alicent’s friendship waters down the seriousness of the war their love for their descendants etc).

[princesssszzzz]

It’s so funny when people try to hate on Nettles, Rhaena, and Baela when they are really the most innocent characters with fan bases that have the least drama. There is nothing to hate

Honestly though. The entire show has bad writing. When Baela and Rhaena are the victims of badly written scenes it’s anti them. When it’s anyone else it’s rush to interference and let everyone know it’s not the characters/actors but the writers. The fake outrage about most of their scenes will never not be funny to me.

Like clockwork every time Baela and Rhaena get attention from the general public there’s fandom people that get bothered and start posting think pieces pretending to critic the writing. The only genuine criticism that show gets regarding their characters are from people that actually like them. The rest of it is just hating disguised as criticism. There’s people in the fandom who ignore them and pretend like they don’t exist and in their echo chambers they forget that Baela & Rhaena have actual Stans. They leave their echo chamber and get mad the characters aren’t being perceived how they perceive them in their spaces; which is disregarded and only brought up for concern trolling and fandom discourse. There’s the black stans that don’t see them as anything other than props. Baela goes viral and you see a bunch of people suddenly trying to latch Rhaenyra onto her and Laena 😂 when they don’t even have a relationship and Rhaenys was literally the one who raised her. Or if they want Nettles cut they pretend to gaf about Daemon’s relationship with Rhaena when they’ve ignored it for the past 2 years and laughing about how Daemon doesn’t care about anyone other than Rhaenyra which includes his kids 😂 but now they want to see father of the year Lmfaoo

Then there’s the green stans obsessed with discourse and wanting the GA to see characters the way they see them and don’t want Baela & Rhaena to be fan faves. The incessant trying to convince everyone to find them boring and “they don’t do anything in the book.” There was entire discourse about how green characters should have their stories changed and embellished and it’s only fair because Rhaena “gets to claim a dragon” as if Rhaena having her story erased and ruined is a good thing. It just makes it obvious it’s not really about the story to people. The only thing they think of is 90% of people that watch that show aren’t even following the story but only want to see dragons and violence and they think Rhaena having a dragon will make her popular. That’s literally all they care about 😂😂so unserious Mind you these are the same people that will pretend to stan Netty so they can be “outraged” at Rhaena stealing Sheepstealer. And they reduce her character to sleeping with Daemon and don’t understand why she should be in the show and her importance in the dance is not breaking up some raggedy ship.

[ride-thedragon]

First of all, I was referring to the person you didn't tag but referenced. If they had an issue with it and saw it. I wanted to be clear I wasn't defending them because they are perfectly capable

I've seen the posts where everyone, but Septon Eustace (who you choose to believe in this time) is lying. I responded to the post that you collaborate on, where no one can truly say why the Mootons thought Daemon would destroy Maidenpool in his wroth or why he was washing her hair and back naked in a bath with her. Or why George used Jonquil's tower to symbolize Nettles Departure. The female love interest in a story leaving, destroying a literal pillar of her side of the romance.

1. Crack,

Oberyn Martell, the man who left the Maesters after he got bored, the man who slept with a Septa and boys alike. The man who can't blame his ancestors for wanting to sleep with Targaryens because 'who wouldn't want to ride a dragon, who trains his daughters in various arts of combat, who is staunchly set in the story trying to get justice for his sister and her children is not aligning with the faith. None of his children are legal.

Also who is one hundred percent credible?

Not the man who I said is relying on histories and the story we read to come to that conclusion.

I'm also not defending Oberyn on the basis that he's a Maester (he's not). I'm saying he, out of most people, would have an understanding about the story through what we know and stories passed down. That you can't discredit him because he knows about as much as you know.

2. My Man

I know who Oberyn is as a character. Unlike many of your assumptions about Daemon I don't deny that to make him come across as some loving person who can't bare the weight of his decisions.

He takes another person who's on the brink of prostitution and makes her his paramour, almost as close to a princess, having 4 kids with her who all look up to his older daughters.

His older daughters, all individuals, are trained in their special interest, and all grieve him enough to plot with Arianne.

Have we ever thought that his daughters, who are as close to the future Princess of Dorne to be considered like sisters to her, would be trained in certain things, because because he could not protect his own sister?

Also, this big assumption of me not admitting the problems of my favorite characters is rich, to say the least.

But let me address this.

I don't know why you feel the need to only present him as cruel and biased, but that's not who he is as a character. It's the same logic that reads to the Nettles as replaceable thought. You aren't positioning the duality of this character. He was fourteen when he got Obara, with, at that point, an established fondness for older women.

I know where he falls short, angry, vengeful, privileged, and irrational, but that does not incompass his character and does not lead to the understanding of his views.

Oberyn of Dorne would not care if Rhaenyra took the throne. His daughters, after his death, are trying to install Myrcella as Queen.

He, especially with age, isn't some woman hating prince who holds himself above women he's has bonded with.

Unlike Daemon, when his niece showed interest, he didn't compromise her position for power even in their liberal society that Oberyn takes full advantage of.

Unlike Daemon, he doesn't upset the kingdom to do what he does. He isn't disrespecting his legal wife with the promise of bastards.

Again, he is wordly, trained in specifics by maesters who devoted their lives to the topics and incredibly smart. Which is what the quotes thing is meant to allude to.

As a character, he's reasoned among the most intelligent and overall well-rounded quotes we get in the series.

I don't know what you get from painting him as someone with no basis in the narrative he read, but most things suggest otherwise.

Also and again, the people closest to Daemon and Nettles were saying they're together. That's not maester bias centuries later. The Mooton’s aren't conspiring with the fate to incriminate Daemon for centuries. They weren't paying bards to write songs,didn't bribe Caraxes, and didn't make Daemon out to be someone he isn't.

This argument against the faith is really strange when the only person who agrees with your interpretation is Septon Eustace himself.

3. Condescending isn't a good idea

I'm not the one.

Overanalyzing tags is certainly a way to go, but it's not an argument. Do that with any of my posts, and you'd be shocked. Saying that Alyn has a recessive Velayron whore gene has been my favorite one recently.

Also I never say maesters are correct.

Why would I?

They are, however, the people who give us the story. Discount the entirety of fire and blood if you can't believe anything they say. They wrote it.

I also I'm not going to look that up.

I know it of the top of my head, and Oberyn is a man defined by passion and love. Read the book.

4. Daemon kills himself

It's my favorite part.

He doesn't do it for anyone but himself. Does it benefit people, sure, but that's not what his queen tells him to do. He defies her every command.

Which leads me to this idea that defending Oberyn is me implying that he can defend himself.

Again, I was talking about my mutual you cited at the beginning for your comment, not characters who can't defend themselves against your bias for them.

Also, my hate towards Daemon is built on an understanding of his character, which most of my content about him analyzes. I'm not being biased to one bad guy over the other. He's just not Oberyn.

Reading comprehension is important, which is why I assume you push all those negative qualities about Oberyn without any reflection on his character.

As for Daemon and Nettles, the same arguments with no nuance have gotten you nowhere.

We've had these discussions about them before where we fundamentally disagree on the interpretation.

Check the comments. The arguements still alck nuance and understanding and justification for a lit of the things that happen between them. That I've addressed in countless posts. You should read them.

Overall, this has been fun. I wish you well.

Since you published a post on this subject, I take advantage of it. What do you think of those who use / make use of this video of GOT lore, so the series more precisely, to prove the nature of the Nettles & Daemon relationship, as being undeniably sexual ! It's quite tiring I find, in addition to not being a real proof as many claim, and I'm curious to have your opinion on the matter ?

I actually had an argument with an apparently known DaemonxNettles shipper and fanfic writer named bohemiandreams99 on this POST. It’s in the comments. 

I write:

No the narrator of the piece of the video that you told me about, you say that it is Oberyn Martell? Before watching the video, I have to say that Oberyn this video (which I actually watched and even linked to on my own blog) is not an in-universe source. It is a playful exercise by the creators and voice actors in a different sort of frma narration just for narrating the Dance.

The problem with the video that you sent to me is that it is that Oberyn is not a historian nor was he there with Daemon and Nettles. Just as Mushroom wasn't.

I wouldn't call "Oberyn said it was true so it must be" evidence. Again, Oberyn wasn't there. If someone says something and it seems correct, doesn't make it true until we take context. Because that's how unreliable narration works, you take a lot of things other than "he said", "she said" to think about how they are a reliable source of info for what event/argument that are presenting.

My conclusions haven’t changed. 

I will only add that the narrators, like Stannis Baratheon, are narrating the story that they have been told how it went. 

Again, they were not even alive during the Dance. The people who were had many self-serving, misogynist, classist, etc. biases we would have to contextualize and inspect before we just go believing what they say: Mushroom, Septon Eustace, Maester Mellos, Maester Orwyle, Maester Munkun, etc.

Oberyn is even less reliable and credible than all the Dance sources combined, for telling how things “really went”.

It’s also...questionable for Oberyn Martell to believe that Daemon would have an affair with Nettles and then think it that particular relationship an absolute good thing.

[witheredoffherwitch]

Tbf the way George RR writes women is also kind of madonna-whore. He's ok at writing female characters, but I personally think he gets too much credit for it sometimes. I feel like there are three categories of grrm women: madonna (Sansa, Helaena, Gilly, Myrcella, maybe Catelyn), whore (Cersei, Margaery, Alys Rivers, Melisandre) and slay queen (Daenerys, Rhaenyra, Arya, Brienne, Ygritte)

Hi nonnie, hope you're well.

Once again, I am really sorry for this delayed response. This ask pretty much vanished from my inbox and I had to dig it from my email to answer it. Apparently, that's an option if you've opted for email alerts - who knew?

When it comes to your opinion, I don't disagree. Though I am still inclined to give GRRM more credit than most of us do on this platform. While some of the tropes he employs for his female protagonists can be a bit antiquated, I will still argue that they are way more fleshed out than any other fantasy series I've encountered. Sure there are slay-queens who are further 'girl-bossified' in future installments, but unlike other literary sources, these empowered female leads rarely get their 'desired' endings. In one-off cases (like Arya and Brienne) where they end up making out alive, these women are required to let go that one specific 'trait' that made them distinct from other damsels in the universe - whether it be their pride, stubbornness, or sometimes even romance.

Similarly, the madonna and whore archetypes also challenge these expectations. The story doesn't spare either of these characters, yet somehow they can free themselves if they manage to defy their assigned roles. Now I am definitely conflating the books and the show's ending here, but it is fair to say that GRRM's own work has displayed these similar themes.

[thaliajoy-blog]

Ok random unorganized thoughts on the "who can ride dragons" thing in asoiaf since it's current discourse...

Personally, after some thoughts, the "only Targaryens/people with Valyrian blood ride dragons" bit in all of this is not such a problem because 1) you know, it's a fantasy trope before it's a statement 2) and in GRRM's world it doesn't necessarily suggest that Targaryens are better or superior to others men.

People having a certain ability others lack doesn't make them superior, it's a mistake to think this from the get-go. In short it'd be better to divorce this from the notion of who deserve what (annoyingly the discourse around whether Daenerys is a good person and what the dragons mean in the story is always linked to the topic - annoyingly because it means either side of the argument great Dany like she's one with the whole Targ dynasty or even the whole Valyrian kind) - life, thrones, unhapiness.

In any case, the Targaryens & their ancestors were the ones who associated their ability to ride dragons with the idea that they are above the rest of the world (with the right to be leaders of men - either with the Valyrian expansion or the Conquest of Westeros). Not the narrative itself.

I personally kind of like the idea that Valyrians were a more or less normal maybe even humble people who found dragons & tamed them (there's stuff suggesting they used to be that at some point in their history), who originally had a marvellous & innocent bond with these creatures but that human greed changed things, leading Valyrians to see their companions as weapons they could use against others.

Or maybe they tamed dragons precisely to use them for war, or to defend themselves. Many cases to consider (I don't really believe in the "they fucked dragons" because it seems technically not possible ? except for minds more imaginative than mine I guess) . Then came the time of all we've glimpsed from Valyrian ruins (dragonbinding spells, which seems pretty disrespectful & distant from the more equal dragon/human bonds we're used to). Just like magic creatures affects the world around them in ASOIAF, I'm thinking of the Valyrians' prolonged contact with the dragons having changed their nature over the millenias (and maybe nasty blood magic at some point to hammer in the control).

I'm okay with Nettles being an actual dragonseed like fine but I like to think of her as an echo of that hypothetical past, with Valyrians possibly trying to tame dragons with sheep offerings (since they might have been shepherds). The idea that she sort of has that first contact bond through effort the ancestors of the Targs might have had kind of appeals to me.

[backjustforberena]

It's SO reliant on Game of Thrones. We see efforts of re-design, of course, but a precedent is set and has to be stuck to with all of these locations we've seen before. We can't go for high-concept fantasy because Westeros had already been on-screen with the magic sucked out of it.

All our dragons have to be realistic, so Sunfyre can't glitter or whatever it is they want him to do. We're not going to have violet eyes because "what about Daenerys/Aemon/Viserys" etc. We are going to have the PWWP prophecy because George says Aegon was apparently a dreamer, but it HAS to lead to Daenerys and the White Walkers as we see them in GOT. And hey, look, Catspaw dagger! We'll add that to the Painted Table and Balerion's skull. They'll recognise that!

Our sigils and colours are set. Our filming locations, even. We know what King's Landing looks like, what the Wall looks like, what Maesters wear and Septas. Dragonstone is familiar, Harrenhal has already been used.

The hair design for the Targaryens directly links to Daenerys. The silhouette they take up on Dragonstone mimics hers on Dragonstone and that's done on purpose to create a link between the two time periods and the characters.

And then when we do have something that Condal has changed, to better serve HIS story, we get comparisons or we get complaints. "The seed is strong" they say, when looking at Eve Best with silver hair. As if the parentage of Joffrey Baratheon is at all relevent to HOTD!

(But tbh the fandoms preoccupation with "genetics" is really flawed and weird imo - it's fiction fgs, GRRM wasn't doing punnet squares, he was wanting to create drama).

I think Ryan, for all his many flaws, is caught in a trap. He can't escape the giant. The story isn't his to tell. It's not GRRM's either. They want to call it a prequel to GOT so it has to serve that.

With the Velaryons, as you say, he tries, but he doesn't give the Velaryons enough narrative weight for it to really matter, falling into horrible tropes (not that I think Laena would have been treated any better had she been white), AND most of those characters are instantly embroiled into a parentage debate so all of a sudden you've got people arguing about race and you've got all the connotations of a white boy taking over the self-made black man's house. And when a black man speaks up against this, to all the rich white guys, he gets his head chopped off. Which, you know... not ideal.

And then there's the whole: shouldn't be Jaehaerys mixed? Won't that make X, Y, Z characters (in the future, that we'll never seen on-screen) mixed?

Truthfully, of the two houses that COULD have been colour-blind casting, which are the Velaryons and the Hightowers (both big deals in this show and gone in GOT), which is best? Because I can't imagine the Hightowers would fare any better away from stereotypes than the Velaryons have done. "Here is the first black family in Westeros. They're the evil ones who want their blood on the Throne and the two boys have anger issues." - The fandom already has issues with the Hightowers when it comes to blood and that's when they're WHITE. 😬

similar to my “just cast whoever who gives a fuck” stance i like the idea of gender blind casting as in like, just casting a trans actor in a part that is cis. don’t acknowledge it. just do it.