#or otherwise change the character of the show. I like other viewers appreciate that it doesn’t dedicate any of its short 4 hours

[crimsoncold]

Current thoughts on HOTD

(i.e. the disappointment, the choice not to hate watch the show, and my continued appreciation for the fandom itself)

So I'm admittedly done with the show itself... I can tolerate quite a bit of lackluster writing when I love the concept or certain characters enough- seriously I watched all of the original 9 seasons of the x files (+ the films) even when it had pretty much abandoned the monster of the week format I loved, got extremely convoluted in terms of its plot/conspiracies, and most of the original cast wasn't even around anymore- but sometimes a show declines in quality so much I'm too discouraged to want to continue watching.

S1 already had issues but the inconsistencies in plot/messages/characterization and the strange changes writer's have made to the source material in S2 all sort of converged to make a show that is ultimately not just generally disappointing but now is outright unimpressive and unwatchable (side note i feel so bad for the cast they're working their ass off and the writer's are just giving them literal garbage).

I'm just not a person who really enjoys hate watching stuff? Like no judgement if you want to continue watching or if you do choose to hate watch- do what makes you happy- it's just not something I personally would choose to spend my time on- if a show doesn't even interest me to begin with or nothing about a show makes me happy anymore I'm not going to watch it. (With many of the better shows out there getting unfortunately canceled so quickly I'd rather spend my time watching enjoyable shows while they are still around- I know I'm just one viewer and likely I make zero difference in the scheme of things but I just don't want to be part of a viewership that encourages studios to cancel well written but less popular shows and continue with the poorer quality shows because hate/outrage inspired so much viewership... I think it's just that this business practice pisses me off enough that I don't want to be a part of it or reminded of it)

So for HOTD I'm not personally continuing with the show I'm just going to rely on the braver souls in this fandom to show me how crazy things get - at this point it feels like for my sanity there is nothing left to do but laugh at how bad these showrunners are ruining their story/characters and otherwise just move on and watch other things.

When it comes to fandom side of things well I'll quote myself from a different hotd post for a moment..."disappointing or poorly written shows are not without their appeal for participating in fandom (i.e. making, viewing, or sharing the art, writing, metas, or other content inspired by the show) particularly when there is a handful of interesting characters (looking at you book/S1 HOTD's team green) that fans want to rescue from the terrible writing/butchering by the showrunners ... sometimes it is even one of the most appealing sort of set ups for fandom to take over and fix things."

So I will absolutely continue to appreciate the general efforts of HOTD fandom (writers, artists, gif makers, etc.) and I will continue to seek out/like/reblog/comment on fan works as well as the many well thought out/eloquent metas and write ups fans put out about this show.

To paraphrase once again from one of my other hotd post "The juxtaposition between how underwhelming and juvenile the showrunner's storytelling choices are compared to how eloquently fans interpret, analyze, deconstruct, criticize or even defend the show and it's characters is absolutely wild...a not insignificant amount of hotd fandom puts in more time, effort, and thought into hotd than ANY of the showrunners/writers."

While I was admittedly intrigued by select characters of hotd my desire and decision to participate in hotd fandom really came down to the amazing efforts of fans who analyzed the show, wrote incredible metas on it's characters, and who made their own transformative stories and art based on hotd.

So in conclusion I'm done with watching the show, I hate everything the showrunners are choosing to do (the audience deserved a better story/show), I feel so bad for the cast and wish the characters hadn't been massacred by these writers (Alicent, Aemond, Helaena, Aegon, and the rest of team green all deserved better writing, i.e. consistent and coherent characterization or you know getting time on screen/together in general, all characters deserved better than being reduced to props for this strange pro targ/pro Rhaenyra storyline the showrunners have made up, hell even Rhaenyra herself deserved better writing),

I will continue to think about the "what ifs" that come up around this ... (what this story and these characters could have become in the hands of better writers) and I will always still appreciate/comment on and reblog fandom efforts themselves (whether you continue to participate in hotd fandom or are done with it just know that even though the writer's suck and the show has just gotten worse and worse, and the few character's we liked are getting destroyed by the writing, I still admire everybody I encountered in the little niche of the hotd fandom I have participated and appreciate what you all contribute to hotd fandom.

AND I will continue my own little additions to said fandom-i still have hotd inspired art coming soon and while I'm done with the show itself I intend to steal away the shiny things I liked from hotd (certain intriguing characters and the possibilities that could have existed if this had been adapated better) and continue to enjoy them while I ignore the rest of the nonsense the showrunners have created.

- Crimson Cold

[emletish-fish]

My belated Netflix ATLA thoughts.

Things I loved

I think all the actors did a great job with what they were given. Dallas was especially great as Zuko. Perfect mix of smushable teenage petulance and trying-his-best. (Lol, it's always Zuko's actor, eh? Dev Patel was the only watchable and redeeming bit of the first live action. A bright spark of talent in an otherwise bleak cinematic experience).

All the kids were great too. Sokka was spot on and got to do some heavy character work. Daniel dae kim was living his best life as a villain and you can tell he had fun with the role. ABED!!! Sorry, Daniel Pudi - amazing choice for the mechanist. Shout-out to the lady who played Suki's mum.

(Love the Suki's mum plot and how Kyoshi's isolationism was explored).

Also Zhao's actor added a wonderfully Uriah Heap-esque obsequiousness layer. Very skin-crawling. Well done that guy.

low-key loved how careful the show was in casting POC. It's so great and refreshing to see so many wonderful actors get more work and recognition.

Loved the costuming and make-up and how it looked like at least some care and thought went into it. Details like the gold corners in the Kyoshi make-up were inspired choices. Shout out to whatever hair stylist did Jet's hair. They managed to achieve cartoon levels of foofiness.

Loved seeing Aang meditate with all the past avatars. Like that his relationship with each of them is being fleshed out early. Some very interesting theories and takes. It also does a great job of showing us all the past avatars were flawed people.

Loved some adjustments to Zuko and Irohs story, like the funeral scene and the division becoming Zuko's crew.

Loved how these changes affect the way we see the relationship. In the cartoon, Iroh is a goofy comic relief character for most of season 1. It's a front for his white lotus sneakery, but that is only obvious to viewers in hindsight. But Netflix ATLA knows who Iroh really is and where his story is going, so his guilt and grief and war crimes are all out in the open from the get go.

Because Iroh's grief is more obvious, Zuko's caretaking role is more obvious too. We are shown how he takes care of his uncle above other duties and it makes their relationship and more balanced one of mutual care. Zuko's moments with his uncle are elevated from occasional pet-the-dog instances to a fundamental part of his character.

Loved some of the fight choreography and scenes. The market place fight was especially entertaining, with the colour saturation of the scarfs and the random lady getting all up in Zuko's business for attacking a kid. She was great. Shout out to her.

In general there was a lot to love in this version, and I appreciate the work that went into it on a technical level. Whilst it maybe a cash-grab at a studio exec level, it's obvious the people working on this project really care about what they are making and it shows in their work.

[rankingthehousewives]

Eight years later, or, "I'm not getting older; I'm just getting bolder."

Hi divas,

It's been the better part of a decade since I first posted this list, and a lot has changed: for me, for Bravo, and not least for the various superestrellas herein. I'm forced to fess up to some clunker opinions (Stacey Forsey is not a better Housewife than Vicki Gunvalson; Teresa Giudice is [heartbreakingly, devastatingly] not actually in love with her brother), and a few overall sea changes in the way I conceptualize the show and Bravo in general.

First of all, I underestimated the delight of the Housewives blog/news cycle, which has only refined as an apparatus since the posting of this list. A key component in being a Bravolebrity is one's ability to titillate with delightfully brain-bending headlines (Teresa Giudice 'can’t relate' to Jen Shah’s prison sentencing: 'I would never do something like that.') and to shock and delight with one's antics, public snipes, absurd feuds, and assorted felonies. When I first compiled this list, it was after my first watch of each of series, and I didn't understand that a good chunk of the captivating material occurs offscreen, as a thrilling little adrenaline hit during an otherwise mundane day. If I had to make a list like this again, I'd take that into much more rigorous account.

But I wouldn't make a list like this again, because fundamentally... I really like all of these women now, at least as highly edited TV characters! Shock twist: they're all now tied in my heart! I see them all as rich and necessary players in the show's milieu, and I honestly think that my individual moral judgments of them are totally irrelevant—and, in fact, I think the show works best approached as non-judgmentally as possible. I respect that each viewer will have their own individual lines in the sand as to what is and isn't Too Far, informed by their own personalities and experiences, and I can't ask for carte blanche approval of these problematic women and their problematic ways. But for me, I have genuinely come to appreciate Kyle Richards and Jeana Keough and THE Mary Schmidt Amons, and of course I still love Phaedra and Tamra and Sheree and all of the other beautiful Botoxed gladiators who have taken to the Coliseum (and The Traitors season two) for our collective entertainment.

I think part of what's brought me to this conclusion is that in the current era of BravoCon and celebrity superfans and Peacock exclusives, the social media discourse has gotten increasingly tense, heated, and even abusive—between fans and other fans, certainly, but also between fans and the talent. People frequently direct really cruel messages to the Housewives and other Bravolebrities without thinking of the impacts of those sorts of messages, individually and en masse. I think a ranked list like this one, with its favourites at the tops and least favourites at the bottom, isn't a great format for communicating the nuance of these programs at their best, and for expressing my appreciation for these many strong, interesting, entertaining women who love vaginal rejuvenation and axe-throwing. Basically, I think we're too quick to judge, and I think I judged too quickly.

I still get really sweet messages from readers about this list (please forgive me if I haven't answered yours!), so I won't strip it from the web, even though I disown a lot of the opinions underpinning it. If you're reading this in 2024, or later, just know that I almost universally wish I were kinder and more thoughtful in my appraisals. And, hey, thanks again for reading.

If you're interested in keeping up with me eight years later, I write, produce, and host a podcast with my friend, Josie, called Bittersweet Infamy. We cover infamous non-fiction stories, including an excruciatingly in-depth dive into the Salahis' white house crash with lots of bizarre celebrity cameos, from Shaq to Sugar Kiper to Bai Ling. Three and a half years in, we're revving up for our 100th episode, so we'd love the well wishes.

If that's not your vibe, then please continue to enjoy the weird and wonderful worlds of Bravo—and please, by all means, make it nice.

xoxo

t.

P.S. RHOSLC kicks ass.

P.P.S. Luann is still my favourite.

[stromuprisahat]

What do you think about darkling and zoya having sexual relationship in the show? I saw an anti saying how darkling had a relationship with someone he knew since childhood and talked about the 400+ age gap.

I'll never understand people who make a 100+ age gap in fantasy a problem

I'll start with my favourite anecdote. There are people, who claim Hannigram is problematic ship, due to ten year age gap. In the show about cannibalistic serial killer, the greatest issue seems to be age difference between 40 and 50 y/o man. Not the manipulation, gaslighting, murder, drugging, intentional isolation, literal gutting etc. ...

Zoya and Kirigan are consenting adults. We don't know when their relationship started, but we've never been given a single reason to assume otherwise. The only objective issues are their professional relationship and expectations regarding their affair.

I wouldn't worry about Aleksander, it's all clearly sexual for him. He respects Zoya's power and other qualities, I'd assume he appreciates her physical attractiveness, but that's where it ends for him. As General of Second Army and seemingly influential member of opressed minority, he cannot afford to sleep with just anyone and one of his officers seems like a safe choice.

As for Zoya, the girl's a mess. She doesn't seem to see it the same way as her lover. She's visibly upset, when the Darkling refuses her advances, but doesn't mind when Malyen does the same few episodes earlier. They're obviously not exclusive, but Zoya gets jealous of Alina, she's upset by Aleksander's rejection, even though he's obviously distressed at the time. Random fuck to blow off some steam's alright, but emotional involvement not? Perhaps someone saw herself as future Mrs. Kirigan...

Which rises the question how did the rift between them affect her decision to betray her General? Girl so short tempered she's throwing tantrum, using her powers, when she's not the centre of guy's attention? Yes, we know, there's THE AUNT in danger, but Zoya changed sides preeetty quickly. Trying to kill a guy, who dumped you doesn't hurt, does it?

I'm adding link to a thread about how this storyline changed Zoya as a character. Did she fuck her way up? The viewer doesn't know about her tragic past or diligence, but they saw her in leading position and General's bedroom. Is a possible threat to her relative good enough reason to try killing the man, who just anounced the war's won? She's a soldier! Or does she want him dead, because he's no longer useful to her? Or because he turned her down, and she's the one dumping people?

[milkywaydrinker]

One of the saddest things about how Marcy was handled in Amphibia is that her parents are never expected to explain themselves. The story never asks Mr. Wu why he needs to move away in the first place, if the family genuinely needs this job because they won't have one otherwise. But based on Matt's wording in interviews and the lack of mention in Marcy's Journal, it really seems like he just... wanted a job promotion. He only did it for himself and wasn't content with the pretty lofty house the family already had, and Mr. Wu does it at the expense of Marcy and gets away with it.

There's no calling out of him; Nor does the show even bother to clarify for the viewer that Marcy's parents "aren't bad", since Matt admitted they omitted the other girls' parents out of fear the viewers would excuse Sasha and Marcy after seeing their home lives. But unintentionally, it creates this twisted double-standard; It doesn't matter if Mr. Wu is a good parent, it doesn't matter if he's a bad one either.

The only thing that matters according to the show is that Marcy, the child, messed up; And so her arc consists solely of blaming herself for what happened, without giving Marcy the chance to at least speak for herself. She isn't allowed to be angry on her own behalf, Anne and Sasha figure out what went wrong with Marcy, without Marcy ever getting to tell them that. Marcy isn't allowed to work on her broken self-esteem.

All that matters is that Marcy is a good girl who obeys, regardless of whoever she's taking orders from. Which makes it hypocritical of the show to frame Marcy as bad for blindly trusting in Andrias' plans, but not ever questioning her father's. Both are paternal figures to Marcy. Likewise, Marcy is punished for being a disobedient child, but the adults in her life are utterly excused; The Wus are under no obligation to explain themselves, Olivia and Yunnan aren't called out for only using Marcy for their own ends. And Andrias?

The show doesn't want to show the girls' parental trauma out of fear it will 'excuse' them. Yet it has no qualms about Andrias' redemption hinging almost entirely on the audience pitying him because his father pressured and controlled him, even giving Andrias a triumphant moment where he stands up to his dad! The show expects you to feel bad for Andrias because some people in his life were a bit mean to him, it expects you to think he just needed to be told by Leif that she still loved him, when he went out of his way to create racism towards her species.

And Barrel! Just like Marcy, Wit is neglected. Andrias mourns Leif, claims she is the only one who called him by his nickname, but his cruelty towards Barrel is left unaddressed. Barrel is an afterthought and left unmourned, because like Marcy he doesn't matter, he's only as good as what he does for others.

Maybe it's a stretch, but with the way the show ended, the message of 'accepting change' just comes across as unintentionally authoritarian. Accept that a god will separate you from your friends, or your dad, it doesn't matter either way.

I have many complaints about the way Amphibia portrays the dynamics between the characters. It applies to both family and friendships and how each girl sees and interacts with the world.

You hit the nail on the head with the unintentionally authoritarian approach. I had trouble naming the aspect that bothered me, but this sounds right. There's an expectation of difference, to parents, to authority, and to culture.

Anne is a very sweet kid from the start but one of her main flaws is her lack of appreciation for her heritage and giving in to peer pressure more than giving in to what her parents expect from her. Sasha isn't a good influence on her, but teenage rebellion is natural, and going along with what your more charismatic peers want isn't a deadly sin that warrants the level of scrutiny and punishment she's received. She feels like she's the most mediocre out of the trio, it's a hard place to be when you're 14. In the end, she still does what she's always done, becomes the fall guy for her friends, and is expected to take on the burden of becoming the sole savior of the world. What meaningful difference does it make if she gets hurt by following what Sasha wants vs following some prophecy?

Sasha gets sidelined and we never see her home life which would have added so much depth to why she is the way she is. I have friends who went through a messy divorce of their parents and it did reflect in the way they behaved. Showing that on screen would make Sasha a way less polarizing character in the fandom, cutting that was a mistake. Her overly controlling behavior comes from abandonment issues and neglect but we are expected to see her as a villain that needs redemption.

Marcy is just a mess. I have no clue what they were thinking. Her on-screen growth is inconsistent and seems pointless by the end of the show. She's easily the biggest punching bag of the narrative. Pictured as selfish and with her head in the clouds, unable to distinguish what's real and what's just a game. What clearly reads as an escapist coping mechanism to almost everyone watching, is turned into her greatest flaw. She's punished for being a child and coping with pressure from her parents in maladaptive ways.

The show is afraid of showing parenting mistakes. We are told Anne's parents are hard on her, strict, and constantly nagging, but then when we meet them it's not even true? Her mom is a little overbearing but that's about it. As someone with strict parents myself, I felt slightly disappointed. Parents are just people too, it's okay to show them in an unflattering light sometimes, even if they're good overall. Bad parents aren't an excuse, they are an explanation. Showing that on screen would only improve the story.

I don't like Andrias. I don't like his story. It's discordant with everything else the show has been hammering in. He's a worse version of what She-ra did with Hordak and it's not like I liked that ending either.

You should defer to your parents because they know best unless they're evil. You should be able to tell right from wrong always. You shouldn't give to peer pressure unless your friends are right. You should give up your agency when necessary, for the greater good, but you shouldn't be a pushover.

You should know what you want to be at 14.

[thegreatzombieartisan]

A Brief Swim Into Adaptations, Fan Fiction, & the Tolkien Fandom

To cut to the chase: adaptations are separate entities from a book. Different mediums demand adjustments to storytelling. If an adaptation is technically well-executed, then I theorize that viewer approval largely hinges on how much they expect the adaptation to match their reader experience.

Personally, I don't want to sit through 12 hours of predictable film nor 5 seasons of TV. And other Tolkien fans demand it. To each their own.

It's a common saying that adaptation is fan fiction. It can have large overlaps for sure. To me, it boils down to intent. Adaptation seeks a faithful translation of source material. Fan fiction creates a story from source material with discretion to faithfulness. Adaptation = Galadriel as a warrior. Fan fiction = Galadriel as a Nazgul (I’d watch it).

Adaptation decision-making is a combo of creative vision, practical production needs and politics. Many fans don't consider this when faced with changes. Example: in the PJ's LotR, Glorfindel got axed. Arwen rescued Frodo instead. A decision related to time, importance, and politics. Plus, in 2001, a major film without female roles would be accused of sexism and limit audience appeal. Both would've impacted box office numbers & award nomination. With Glorfindel axed, Aragorn’s backstory changes and so does his character arc somewhat. So on and so forth. None of these changes stemmed from PJ's own preferences.

The Tolkien fandom is notorious for a strain of pedantic and vocal desire for purity. I could go much deeper into Tolkien fanboys. But for now, I’ll focus on one big component: Tolkien left readers with the literary version of the Winchester Mystery House. Per his prerogative, massive (un/intentional) blank space open for interpretation. Particularly in deep lore, which isn’t novelistic, but rather, synopses. People fill in blank spaces differently. Also, what other fandom requires readers to study the author for interpretation of said blank spaces?

Another factor is a fan’s goal for consuming the adaptation. Is it for entertainment or communion? All in all, the Tolkien fandom is a tough crowd to please.

Studio-produced adaptation relies on fandom money and/or time. People deserve to get what they “paid” for based on communicated expectations. If film producers/show runners claim it’s Tolkien then the work would, at minimum, reflect aligned themes, motifs, and symbolism in storylines, dialogue, and visuals. Moreover, devout Catholicism aligned. I do think RoP does a good faith attempt with Tolkien’s own intentionalist views through Galadriel. Otherwise, call it Tolkienesque.

However, while compelling, the show’s “touching the darkness” theme reflects show runner JD Payne’s Mormon’s beliefs more than Tolkien. So if Galadriel doesn’t eventually feel pity for the orcs she expressed genocidal rage toward in the next 4 seasons, it’s arrogant fan fiction. I sat through 8 hours of time and I get to call it out. Beyond that, creativity in blank spaces is fair. Case in point, Disa singing.

Technical execution is a separate area. Even fan fiction demands narrative logic and flow is valid. If nothing else, make it make sense within the context given.

More another time.

Thank you for reading! Your likes and reblogs are appreciated. Got feedback?

What did you like? Got theories or insights to share?

Disagree? I love good faith debate and sparring!

Need clarity around points? Got feedback on readability?

Spot an inaccuracy? Hey, Tolkien's work is complex. Drop it in comments or DM.

[pepperochau]

why netflix bebop is bad: a loose agglomeration of thoughts

André Nemec, showrunner of the live-action adaptation, stated in an interview with entertainment weekly that the adaptation had 3 main goals: to not deliver a repeat of the anime; to answer questions the original series had; to dig out deeper histories of the characters. I’m going to give a slew of short thoughts onto how the adaptation largely fails these goals.

Very important to this however is you should still watch the show. It’s been cancelled for one, for two you’re never going to know how bad something is unless you watch it. I have a massive appreciation for the original series only strengthened by watching and attempting to learn from this bad adaptation. Alan Moore once said that, just as important as reading good books is for a writer, you should also read bottom-barrel bad shit as well so you can understand why otherwise good ideas become mired by poor decisions.

-Serving the same meal

It is difficult for a visual adaptation to call itself “not the same meal” when so much of its core components are the same.

In the live-action adaptation, there are a sum total of 3 wholly original stories: Episodes 2, 7, & 9. Every other plotline following the Bebop crew is best considered to be a remix of an existing anime episode, with some slight alterations to cast and story but otherwise largely the same. The Teddy Bomber, as an example, becomes a central character in his episode as opposed to the joke-threat he was in the anime. The Callisto Liberation Front, rather than be undone by Spike’s sabotage, is instead toppled from within by a mother-daughter murder-suicide. Faye’s induction into a mind-control cult in the anime instead becomes Spike’s.

Episode 1, near fully identical to the original, has changes which exemplify the issues in remixing the episodes to tell a “different” story. In the ending to the anime’s first episode, after a botched drug deal that leads to Asimov overdosing, Katerina drags him into their spaceship and flies off with Spike in tow. Spike attempts to convince her to turn herself in, but instead Katerina shoots her overdosing husband before flying into a police firing line; a tragic encapsulation of how the series explores wounded people who view themselves as too tainted to ever see the light again. The adaptation changes this in a number of ways. Asimov and Katerina have eloped rather recently. Asimov, rather than overdosing, is fatally shot in the final botched drug deal. He succumbs to his wounds as Spike chases after the couple, but Katerina is so overcome by grief over the loss of her lover and fear of being forced to return home that she chooses to kill herself rather than be brought in by either Spike or Faye. We go from people denying themselves freedom, to the abandonment of hope. In a much broader stroke, this also changes the very thesis of the series itself, by starting on a downer, rather than tragic, note.

The Vicious/Julia B-plots could be considered enough of a change to make even the remixes into their own original stories, but I think they are best considered to be separate entities in the same vein as Bowser’s Minion’s relationship to Superstar Saga.

-Mining Deeper Histories

As viewers we tend to conflate the portrayer with the portrayal, but rather unfortunately for some, the actors actually do amazing jobs in their roles. The issue here comes with how changing the characters ultimately changes the arcs the go on, the themes they convey, and the the stories that must be used to tell them. In other words: coal is coal, but the mine is important.

Faye Valentine. In the anime, Faye wedges herself onto the Bebop of her own accord after an encounter with Spike and Jet. She has her own small ship like Spike’s which she uses to go off on her own, separate from the rest of the crew, and while Spike and Jet are unsure of her presence at first, they slowly begin to warm up to her and she to them over the course of 10 episodes. In the adaptation, Faye first meets the Bebop crew in Episode 1, as a rival bounty hunter. They do not cross paths again until Episode 4; after her ship is destroyed in a gambit to prevent a bioweapon from landing on Callisto, she is more or less confined to the Bebop if she wants to continue her bounty hunter career. The agency which defined her character in the anime is stripped away in order to facilitate growth. This can be a negative or a positive depending on perspective, but we don’t get the same impact as the anime’s free spirit with a fear of settling down.

Ein is a dog. In many ways, Ein is simply a mascot for the Bebop and the anime as a whole. But Ein is not without his own character, his own intelligence. Ein in the anime is a datadog, effectively a bio-engineered living computer bound in dog form, but is an active participant in the plot of his introductory episode, and similarly participates in the plots of many other episodes. In the adaptation, Ein is made to feel like a regular dog, with accidental flashes of intelligence. In a later episode, his status as a datadog is made to mean that he is a backup for the memories of Mad Pierrot, and can be remotely controlled and used as a projector, all seemingly without protest. Ein has always been a dog, but the adaptation seems to go out of its way to make him into Just A Dog.

There is also a deeper issue here in that, in pursuit of the goal of “mining for deeper histories” of characters, the writing staff seemed keen on neutering the agency of characters, something I briefly touched on with Faye. Ein’s intelligence is downplayed to turn him into a plot device, Faye is effectively trapped on the Bebop and only chooses to stay once she regains her freedom, Julia is turned into a damsel in distress, and Vicious’s uncompromisingly self-serving nature has its core in his daddy issues. Contrast this with the anime, where Ein has his own intelligence, Faye develops a genuine emotional bond with the crew after initially trying to use them, Julia went into hiding in the hope of protecting Spike, and Vicious is a greedy unrepentant to his core. These changes again can be seen as good or bad, but to me, they did not mesh well with a largely similar story.

-Answering the Unanswered

Sometimes, things don’t need to be answered. Sometimes, the unanswered was already answered.

Race. There could be an argument made that, since Jet Black was seen by many viewers to be either coded as black or light-skinned, that race is a largely forgone conclusion in the later stage capitalism of cowboy bebop’s future. The adaptation, however, makes a choice to bring the question of racism back into the far-future. To be clear: is not a jab at Mustafa Shakir. If anything, it is a shame that we will likely never get more of his portrayal as Jet, easily the best casting and best portrayal of the bunch. However, the writing staff seems to want to make a statement on the issue of police violence directed at black men but doesn’t want to commit to the bit. Abdul Hakim, described as a “negloid” in the anime on his mugshot, steals Ein from a research facility prior to receiving a kind of extreme plastic surgery which causes him to resemble Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. In the live-action adaptation, this is reversed: Abdul Hakim’s true appearance, the one on his mugshot, resembles that of Kareem, while the disguise he obtains is a hologram of a smaller white man. “True” Abdul only appears in the flesh in order to fight off Spike’s pursuit, while “Fake” Abdul is the one who navigates the episode and gets shot by Jet’s former station-mate Chalmers. Any kind of impact that kind of statement kind have is lost in the disguise. Speaking of the police, Chalmers, the one who killed Abdul, is also implied to be the one who got Jet kicked off the force on top of starting a relationship with Jet’s ex-wife. We later find out that, actually, Chalmers isn’t racist and is actually something of a good dude underneath the animosity he has towards Jet. Maybe it’s because Chalmers is Irish, I don’t know. One of Jet’s contacts, an older white woman, is also aggressively sexual and flirtatious with Jet in a very racialized manner. Now, sexualizing men v. women for the sake of a joke are two very different things given the long exploitative history of the latter, but to sexualize him for his race puts a very strange taste in my mouth, especially given the kind of racial awareness the show seemed to want to cultivate through its casting choices.

Also on race, there’s the issue of the Red Dragon Syndicate. In the anime, The Syndicate is more or less The Chinese Triad In Space. I’m not going to attempt to dance around that, as it just is what it is. It’s a Chinese organization with Chinese leaders. But there’s also no aliens in space. Why is this important? Well, the adaptation changes the organization from a Space Chinese one into a Space Chinese-LARPing one. The Van, leaders of The Syndicate in both shows, are elderly human beings—in the adaptation, however, The Van wear incredibly racist-looking wooden masks based on the anime designs. I can only assume this was done accidentally, assuming that the anime version of The Van were aliens. But it exists, and it needs to be brought up as part of the weird relationship the adaptation has with race.

This is the part of the ramble where I bring up Julia and Vicious. This would have been in the prior section, but really it deserves to be down here given the stark differences between the anime and adaptation.

Julia is interesting. I mean this both as a plus and a minus. On the one hand Julia didn’t have a great deal of depth in the anime, bailing out on Spike when he faked his death to escape The Syndicate. On the other hand, not every character needs to have a lot of depth to be good. Some characters are just there to serve a role, and while unfortunate that Anime Julia was that kind of a character, an idealized goal for Spike to aspire to, it’s a role she did well. Adaptation Julia, in contrast, is a fairly fleshed out character with her own goals separate from Spike. She still shares the same fear of Vicious that the Anime has, but she slowly morphs into a kind of power fantasy by seizing The Syndicate instead of just cutting and running from the men who have been such destructive influences in her life. Is a power fantasy bad? No, not at all. But it clashes against the reality of Spike’s mostsly clean getaways from The Syndicate in both anime and adaptation. She could have marooned a dying Vicious on a foreign planet, or left him for dead in the church. It’s a confusing writing choice to me which maybe someone else could explain to me, but as I see it, was a weird move to make given that she clearly wants out of life as a Syndicate member’s woman.

Vicious is….hoo boy. I think it’s best to start with the anime Vicious here. Anime Vicious is a greedy, power-hungry bastard. He was willing to subvert and sell-out his fellow soldiers to ensure his own survival, he grated against The Van during his power plays to seize the distribution of the drug Red Eye, and violently pursues Spike to achieve revenge stealing Julia from him. Vicious is amoral, and abuses the honor systems of others for his own gain.

Adaptation Vicious is a Woobie. He is my poor little meow meow wet dishrag man who I want to throw in a dryer on high until he shrinks and burns. He is a child. He sucks at his job in The Syndicate. He doesn’t even want to be in The Syndicate, he is forced to be in this medium-high ranking position because his yellowface-cosplaying abusive father is a member of The Van. He is a pathetic wet slug of a human being that the writers tried DESPERATELY to write as an incel-type character, but instead succeeded in making a strangely sympathetic character whom I want to see succeed in spite of his own severe character failings. Vicious is abusive towards Julia. This is a fact. The bizarre woobification of Vicious’s character does not negate this abuse. But the difference is that where Anime Vicious was an irredeemable force of malice and greed, Adaptation Vicious is a pitiable and stringy weeb.

Gren is—oh, did you think I wouldn’t bring up Gren? See this is why I hid this part at the very end, because I knew some people would immediately roll their eyes and look away the moment I brought up Gren out of an assumption for what I might say, but I implore you keep reading. See, I don’t mind Gren being non-binary in the adaptation. I don’t think it adds to the character per-se, but I don’t think it’s a negative either given how they were in the anime. My issue is more that Gren just kind of...does nothing. Gren exists for the sake of existing. In the anime, Gren serves almost as a final damnation of Vicious’s character: if he’s willing to violate the sacred bond of brotherhood between soldiers, what won’t he sell out for his own gain? In the adaptation, Gren has such little personality that they sort of blend into the set. Like, yes, I’m aware of Bury Your Gays as a trope. I’m also aware that queer characters shouldn’t have to have big important parts to justify their existence, but that’s not what I’m saying. What I’m saying is, why take Gren from being a brief but impactful character, and turn them into a shallow and inconsequential recurring character?

These are just the core problems which I noticed in my own watch.

Any thoughts?

[ssaalexblake]

gonna use the wave of writer appreciation on this hellsite to remind the new wave of cm fans that back in the ~day of old cm, there were a few gay writers on staff of cm and even more seemingly straight ones who also wanted to write gay lead characters into cm and had support from the cast, going as far as to write it into episodes, only for cbs to make them take this stuff out because they wouldn’t allow it in the show. 

They also told them all that they were Not Allowed To Mention This otherwise you will face Consequences to anybody who may talk about this. I know this because, years ago when after/ellen Wasn’t a bigoted te/rf hell, Kirsten did an interview where she let that slip (both the gay thing And that they’d been ordered to not mention it) anyway. 

They were also gagged on talking about casting changes past the debacle where the NETWORK fired paget and AJ for creative reasons. It was not financial in motive. They are lying when they say so. They were fired for ‘creative reasons’ that led to the showrunner resigning from the show in protest. Mass fan protest and an actual massive fan movement are why they returned. And also, if they wanted to save money by axing a cast member, at the time from salary numbers reported they’d have saved more money axing one man than two women, which is a whole Other issue (that almost got the show cancelled once bc Cook and Vangsness refused to renew contracts again unless they BOTH got raises. The pay disparity between the women and the men was nauseating btw. This was the same year De Pablo left ncis bc she couldn’t achive the same thing without any support from other cast members and wouldn’t be treated like shit). 

But yes, they were gagged from talking about cast changes bc if i recall correctly it was Harry Bring that let slip on twitter when people asked him about Tripplehorn leaving suddenly, that they were all under an NDI about it. All cbs learnt from the previous sexist crap was that if viewers found out about it they’d be loud and angry, so they just made sure viewers didn’t know about it. 

Basically, while there is a Lot of utter awful stuff the cm writers pulled, blaming them for it being the straightest show on TV (till the reboot) is Exactly what the shitbags at cbs want. But you’re blaming actual gay people who wanted to write that into the show but were barred from doing so a bunch of times when you @ the writers for this. Blaming the writers for cast turnover is Also inaccurate. The showrunner literally quit in protest of misogynistic network meddling. I think the only women on the show who left of their own accord were Glaudini (life work balance bad apparently) and Hewitt (who was very visibly pregnant and left for this reason) and there were a hell of a lot more ladies than just them. Not to mention them firing Damon Gupton (walker) between seasons on a cliff-hanger ending so the writers had no choice but to kill his character. 

There are many choices on cm that leave me scowling at the writers (and i know to scowl at them bc they admitted they were the masterminds behind these ideas) but a Massive amount of bs on criminal minds was Entirely cbs meddling with what the writers wanted to do. 

[rosewatergrapefruit]

objectively true / she has never been wrong

[not-the-tie-youre-looking-for]

Something that's been bugging me for years since the Legends finale. If Zhan had been the writer for Rebels, do you think he would have had Thrawn bomb Lothal to bring Ezra out? On the one hand, from Legends Thrawn's portrayal I imagine he would without a second of hesitation. On the other, Canon Thrawn has been much more... restrained? And on a third point, there's the fact that Legends and Canon Thrawn seem like they really could be the same person just at different points of time. cnt in next

...I'm just curious if anyone else was curious if Zhan agreed with that direction taken. Which, on that note, did Zhan ever say anything about his thoughts on how Rebels handled Thrawn? Both from a writing standpoint as well as an acting and musical one (Thrawn's various leitmotifs)?

Oh man. Ohhhhhhhh maaaaan. My friend, you have asked exactly the right person this question, because not only have I wanted to talk about this multiple times before, but I also have ~receipts~. 👀

⚠️Spoiler warnings for Star Wars: Rebels, The Mandalorian, the canon Star Wars novels Thrawn, Thrawn: Alliances, Thrawn: Treason, Thrawn Ascendency: Chaos Rising, and Thrawn Ascendency: Greater Good, and the legends Star Wars novels Heir to the Empire, Dark Force Rising, The Last Command, and Outbound Flight.⚠️

Oh man. Where to begin.

Lets start with who Thrawn is, because depending on who you ask, you're gonna get different answers—whether you're strictly a Legends fan, Dave Filoni, a guy who's only seen Thrawn in Star Wars: Rebels, Timothy Zahn, or just a writer/artist fan like me.

To Timothy Zahn, the man behind our favorite chiss, Thrawn is a character that is constant in both attitude and personality throughout all of his content. In multiple interviews, ranging from Thrawn's debut in Rebels to the latest about the writing of the Ascendancy Trilogy, Zahn states that Thrawn in canon and Thrawn in Legends are indistinguishable.

And so I present the receipts:

In a 2017 interview with The Verge on writing the first canon Thrawn book Thrawn, Zahn is asked the following question and responds as such:

How do you navigate bringing back a character who already has an extensive backstory and audience expectations, with telling a new story that fits in the new continuity?

Actually, I didn’t find that to be a problem. I’d never written Thrawn in this part of the Star Wars timeline, so it was simply a matter of bringing him into the Empire and chronicling his rise through the ranks. It’s still the same character as in the 1990s books, just a decade or two younger and in a very different military and political environment.

In another interview with The Verge in 2018 (a few months after the finale of Rebels aired) about writing Thrawn: Alliances, he repeats this sentiment twice:

Thrawn feels like if it had been written before the canonization purge a couple of years ago, or if you squinted a bit, it would serve as a perfect setup for Heir to the Empire.

Oh, I don’t think you need to squint at all. I wrote him in these two books to fit in with everything else I’d done. So if someone at Lucasfilm snapped their fingers, and suddenly all of my other books were canon, and there would be no real retrofitting that would have to go in. It would all fit together.

Thrawn: Alliances feels more at home in the new canon, especially because Thrawn has been fleshed out a bit more in Rebels. Was there any adjustments for that?

Not really. I’m getting to play with more canon characters like Vader and Padmé and Anakin, but the character himself, I still see him as the same person. He’s got goals, and he won’t necessarily share them with you, but he as long as you’re going the same direction, he’s happy to cooperate and assist along the way.

...and this is referenced again in a 2020 interview with Polygon about writing Thrawn Ascendancy: Chaos Rising:

Along with Thrawn’s appearance in Rebels, Zahn would pen a new novel, Thrawn, that chronicled the character’s early days as an Imperial officer. Zahn didn’t have to change anything with the character, telling me in 2017 that “he’s like an old friend who I understand completely.” While Heir to the Empire was no longer canon, a reader could easily read Thrawn as a precursor to that classic novel. Thrawn went on to become a major presence in Rebels, and Zahn continued to explore his origins in Thrawn: Alliances and Thrawn: Treason.

The next day, an interview with IGN was published on the same subject:

Thrawn is an especially unique case because Zahn has been able to effectively continue the work he started way back in 1991 with Heir to the Empire. That novel may not be a part of official Star Wars lore any longer, but as Zahn explained, Thrawn himself is basically the same character regardless of continuity.

[....] The closest comparison between Chaos Rising and Zahn's earlier EU work is probably 2006's Outbound Flight, which is set during the Clone Wars and details the first encounter between Thrawn and the Galactic Republic (while also retroactively laying the groundwork for elements of Heir to the Empire). That novel is no longer canon, but Zahn told us he prefers to operate as if it were. He's making a concerted effort not to retread the same ground as Outbound Flight and to avoid contradicting the events of that novel as much as possible.

So yeah. In Zahn's opinion, Legends Thrawn is Canon Thrawn is Book Thrawn, and there is no difference whatsoever between Thrawns in, say, Outbound Flight, Heir to The Empire, Alliances, and Chaos Rising. I wholeheartedly disagree, but lets move on.

Now that the books are out of the way, its time for Rebels.

In July of 2016, after the trailer announcing Thrawn's canon debut aired, Dave Filoni had the following to say about Thrawn's character in regards to Timothy Zahn:

“I was pretty adamant with a couple of people saying, ‘Listen, we need to have Tim sign off on this. This is kind of a waste of time [otherwise],'” says Filoni. “We, of course, can do what we want with a character that Lucasfilm owns, but without Tim’s okay, what does it mean? That’s not going to be good. Once we had some stuff, we wanted to do what we thought was right and make the character. Then we brought him in. We had the production fully prepared. I said, ‘Look, if there’s something that Tim says that I think is really valuable, even if it changes something dynamically, we need to be ready for that and see what we can do.’ I wanted to make sure we did this right by everybody. We brought him in and we didn’t really tell him why. We just flew him up to Lucasfilm and sat him down in a theater and said, ‘Hey, we’re bringing Thrawn into the show.’ He was like, ‘Wow.’ and I said, ‘Yeah, wow. And I’m going to show him to you right now and you let me know what you think.'”

(Before we continue, keep that first highlighted sentence in mind for future reference. I'm going to come back to that later.)

Fortunately, Timothy Zahn was delighted at the show’s approach to the Empire’s imposing blue-skinned Chiss.

“We showed him some of the scenes with him,” Dave Filoni recalls. “He looked like a kid in a candy store. I think it meant a lot to him not just because it was his character, but because you have to imagine what he went through when it was announced that everything is Legends now, not Expanded Universe. I get that and I’ve always appreciated the work that goes into the Expanded Universe… For Tim, I think it was us saying, ‘No, no, no. We really like your character. We want him to be part of the real thing. The canon universe.'”

So in 2016, before we even saw Thrawn in action beyond a trailer, we were told that Zahn gave the OK, and he was chill with the way Thrawn was created in the show. In 2017, he gave a little more of the background of this process in an interview with FANgirl Blog:

The events of Thrawn dovetail closely with Rebels and shed light on some of Thrawn’s more seemingly surprising actions on the show, like when he appears to lose his temper and yell at Lieutenant Lyste. What was it like to see Thrawn come alive onscreen? Is he how you’ve pictured him in your head?

I don’t see my characters in terms of voice or appearance, but rather as personality or attitude. That said, I very much enjoyed the way the Rebels team brought him to life, in his appearance, voice, and actions.

I also appreciated the freedom I had to tweak certain incidents, such as the one you mentioned, and give additional or alternate explanations for the viewers who may have thought those were somewhat out of character for him.

He doesn't really elaborate on this, but we can assume he had SOME creative input on Thrawn's character, and he was overall pretty happy with the choices made in the show.

But then, we have this from that earlier 2017 the Verge article:

When did you learn that Dave Filoni was intending to bring Thrawn to Rebels, and did you have any input into how the character would be handled?

[...] I didn’t have any real input into how Thrawn was going to be handled, mainly because the lead time of an animated series is so long that much of season 3 had already been finished. But I trusted Dave and the team to do the character right. After all, why bring him into Rebels if you were going to drastically change him? Having seen the entire season now, I think we can agree that my trust was completely justified.

So... he didn't have "any real input," but was satisfied with it in the end? I guess? I don't know. We're getting into some contradictions now.

The last thing I've got in regards to Rebels is an interview Zahn did with the YouTube channel Star Wars Explained after the finale aired, where he responds to the following:

“So, maybe let's jump over to Rebels for a little bit. Now that it has wrapped up, how do you feel Thrawn was represented in Star Wars: Rebels?”

“They did a really good job—they not only understood the character and how to write for him, but they also understood the meta around how you defeat him. The only way to defeat Thrawn is to throw something at him he can't control, or can't anticipate. Given perfect knowledge and control, Thrawn will always find a way to win. But they understood, this is how you defeat him, these are the things we can use against him... so his portrayal in general, is very good; he's smart, he's anticipating, he's a step ahead of everybody, he's looking at clues and picking up on them, so I was very pleased with how the Rebels team handled the character."

I think these quotes answer many of your questions, so to answer your initial question: If Zhan had been the writer for Rebels, do I think he would have had Thrawn bomb Lothal to bring Ezra out?

Yes—but ONLY because at that point, the only established™️ Thrawn content was found in Legends, where Thrawn was a ruthless and calculating warlord.

However!

I do believe that if given the chance to re-write the Star Wars: Rebels finale using his now-canon novels as a solid background TODAY, Zahn would choose to not let Thrawn bombard Lothal's Capital City.

I believe this because he made one single very interesting creative choice when writing Thrawn that completely overwrote Thrawn's pre-established Rebels character: Thrawn was not responsible for the civilian deaths on Batonn—Pryce was.

And that's that on that.

A few months ago I would have ended it there, but today, Thrawn's story is no longer just contained in the novels and Rebels, but also in that of The Mandalorian.

This is where I will proudly say I have no idea what the fuck is going on. Before The Jedi aired, I was 100% sure that the next time we saw Thrawn, it would be nowhere NEAR the Empire, because Zahn was pretty adamant in the novels that Thrawn was only in the Empire to help. His. People.

So now he's apparently doing fuck-knows-what in fuck-knows-where and is STILL associated with the Seventh Fleet and Imperial Warlords???

Huh??? Despite the fact that he held no true loyalty to the Empire or to the Emperor??? It's been months and I'm still confused as fuck. Add to the fact that Zahn also doesn't know what the fuck is going on to the equation and we get a big fat question mark with one pretty clear answer that Filoni said himself that we have to keep in mind:

"We, of course, can do what we want with a character that Lucasfilm owns."

So I don't think Zahn has much control over Thrawn as we would all like to think. We can hope he gives us the crazy Thrawn and Ezra Space Adventure™️ novel all we want, but ultimately, Thrawn's fate does not rest in his hands.

If you guys have more to add please let me know!!! This is, obviously, a topic I am very passionate about, so I'd love to hear your thoughts!

[toujoursmiraculous]

Thoughts and Reaction to SIMPLEMAN

A day late but that's what happens when good subs aren't out until the next day, and you're busy that day. This episode is so sweet and wholesome that it was worth it, for sure. I'm still not sure which one is Ella and which one is Etta. They're always addressed together so I just don't know, but I'd like to. ;-; (Note: Looked it up on Wikia, the one in pink with seafoam earrings is Etta, the one in seafoam and pink earrings is Ella) See Nino knows. Nino's concerned about Marinette babysitting three kids already. He lives with one all the time, times that by 4 and WOO that's crazy. Sweet of her to want to ensure her best friend has some time to relax with her boyfriend. Oh. OH those poor Kwami! Especially Fluff and her ears being pulled like a game of tug-of-war! I can see it now, Fluff now traumatized by young kids. So if Alix ever has any in the future, they better grow up knowing about Fluff right away or she's in for a horror show. PV TRAILER AND MUSIC! I'm such a fan of the music and the PV that when my sister told me about it, it made me even more excited for this episode than I already was. And I was very excited already! Manon: So? Aren't you going to answer it? She knows what's up. So Adrien's calling asking Marinette to help sew on a wing? Because nobody else there can do it? I dunno, sounds kind of sus to me, Adrien. Are you sure you're not using that as an excuse just to see your "friend"?

Marinette's biggest problem is thinking so far ahead in her brain that when she goes to speak, she's either way far ahead of herself or gets everything mixed up as it comes out of her mouth. If she just lived in the moment and didn't plan (which being Ladybug that's probably very hard not to do outside the costume), she'd be able to do this and overcome that fear of rejection as well. She seems to have that part fairly taken care though. When Gina said she was in China to learn Kung Fu and met a girl that reminded her of Marinette, instantly thought about Fei. How could it not be her? Rolland gets asked to babysit, immediately is like "Let's do something fun and dangerous!" Tom must have had an interesting childhood with Rolland and Gina. o.o Clearly Rolland doesn't realize who the heroes are based on. Or just completely forgot he met them when Bakerix. xD Adrien's so sweet with Marinette, even if he can't understand a single thing she says. That's adorable. But a really good way to thank her could've been "Would you stay and watch the photoshoot, and then maybe we could go do something fun/get something to eat after?" BOOM. Problems solved. But I have a feeling this may come back later, and maybe that would turn out better. Marinette's grandparents tend to give Hawk Moth/Shadowmoth the most sass and trouble in comparison to other Parisians. XD Rolland is so sweet to these kids, and they are so caring towards him. It's so wholesome! Just think: if that helicopter wasn't crashing behind her, she would've screamed she loved Adrien. So close. Simpleman is the chillest akuma. Being all "Hey kids, even though I'm akumatized, let's go out into the city!" and the kids are like "Yeah, okay. Hey let's get ice cream!"

Him protecting them from all the flying pizza boxes that guy was throwing around everywhere was super sweet too. LB and CN: Things are complicated. So we should find Shadow Moth directly. Let's run around the city screaming for him to come find us so we can fight him! I seriously think if Chat Noir or Ladybug brought up the fact that their identities made things complicated, they would've revealed themselves right then and there. LOL at the old school fighting and them behaving like young children xD "NO!" "I'm NaNa, ClaCla is no longer with NaNa! Paris is really messy! BuggyBug, KittyKity, help us!" Oh this is going to be so hilarious in the English dub with the voice actress who also voices Nathalie. XDDD A bouncy ball is very complicated for Ladybug. That a literal 5 year old can figure out. Wow this villain's power sure did a number on her. xD I find it all the more stressful actually, that Chat Noir and Ladybug can remember what they were doing the whole time they were affected by the akuma. That means if Marinette said she loved him, or they revealed their identities, there would be no going back or being able to make an excuse for it. Can we just talk about how those kids could understand that the reason he wants things to be simple and is upset that the world is so different, is because it scares him and he doesn't think he's capable of learning and changing with the world? A majority of adults these days can't even take two seconds to try to understand someone else's situation(s) before judging and being outright nasty people towards them. Yet these kids were able to do so. And a lot of kids actually are like they are in real life. Some may see this as an episode just for kids to appreciate, but there's a lot in here that's aimed at adults, too. Adults need reminders and these lessons just as much, if not more so than young kids. It's adults that lose their way and needed to be reminded of it, as they have a greater immediate impact on the world. I've seen so many people judge Rolland, make assumptions about him which is almost always the very worst things they could think of. But this episode shows how caring and willing to learn and understand he really is, he was just hiding behind his fear of change and not being able to keep up with it. Some lessons in this episode for the adult viewers are: -You're never too old to learn, get over your fears, try new things, become a better person, and see things through new eyes. -Don't over-complicate or overthink, but don't be lazy and think keeping everything simple will actually in reality be the answer, sometimes it can make things worse! -Kids tend to see the world as things are, not what they think it should be, or believing they're the center of the universe like adults tend to do. -Being wise means knowing that regardless of your field, educational background, age, or lived experiences, you don't know everything, there is always more for you to learn about everything out there. The kids in this show are quite wise, as they know that there is so much they don't know and how they treat learning new things. They also know how adults tend to understand, or act like they understand everything, so we as adults aren't used to it when we don't and react negatively to that because it scares us when we don't know. In that way, this episode was very brilliant! Also that hug at the end, oh you can bet these kids are going to want to go visit Grandpa Rolland, and honestly I'd love to see bits of them here and there, their bonds are adorable and they've changed his life in such a positive way. Also the pure Ladynoir without another hero or Alya or any kind of upsetting situation was honestly such a breath of fresh air! Maybe not the kind of Ladynoir people wanted, but it made me happy. Marinette acknowledged her problem is she's scared of Adrien rejecting her. First step is admitting it! Can't blame her for not being able to do what she wanted, she only just realized the issue after all. It's going to take a little time now to work on it! Is it just me, or

does it seem Adrien's almost trying not to laugh when she was messing up and then asked if he liked fishing? XD Maybe it was the actors tone with the facial expression but it seemed that way! But the way he just watches her run away and does that adorable little chuckle... Oh Adrien, we really need you to start realizing why you keep doing that. "She (Ladybug) reminds me of your grandmother and you know what? You look exactly like her (Ladybug)." Well. Oop. He's onto you! Apparently Rolland isn't blind, as not a single character suspected her from her personality or appearance to be Ladybug so far. Even Adrien only began piecing it together due to circumstances (and his own personal wish that Marinette is LB, you can't convince me otherwise this isn't true). This is going to come back later, possibly Dearest Family? Overall such a good episode with a lot of things in it, if you decide to watch without high expectations or biases. After all the angst lately, it was certainly needed as a nice change of pace.

[accioecho]

Lee Da Hee for GQ Korea

"Everything becomes memories in the end. You should always strive to have a positive energy."

Feel free to share this translated interview! Though I would appreciate if you could credit me by linking back to this blog or tagging me on Twitter ^_^

GQ: But... uh, why do you look so happy? You’re looking at me with such a happy expression that I don’t know what to do right now.

LDH: Hahaha. No but if I kept listening with a blank expression, I would come off as cold looking. And you would go: “Are you in a bad mood?” So I try to smile more. Otherwise I would come off as cold looking.

GQ: That’s quite a big difference. I got startled when you pulled a straight face.

LDH: Right, it looks like I’m angry. But I’m not, so this is why I try to smile more. If I don’t smile like this, people tend to think I’m cranky. Of course when I get angry, I have a temper, but I’m not usually like that.

LDH: And it goes both ways, it’s easier for me to open up to someone if that person is smiling instead of sporting an expressionless face.

GQ: You were laughing/smiling so brightly that I was kind of hypnotized.

LDH: Hahaha

GQ: When you appeared in the drama “Beauty Inside”, you weren’t the typical villain wearing a red lipstick but were the kind of villain to wear a new, nude shade.

LDH: Ohh, that’s a very nice way to put it.

GQ: Really?

LDH: A nude tone villain. This is the first time I’m hearing this expression, I like it. Yes, up until then, secondary female characters usually tried to win someone’s heart or because they lacked attention and love, they tended to bother the female lead. But “Beauty Inside” was different. It was a different kind of role. I played a villain but my character wasn’t hateful. She had her own convictions and that’s why she was so interesting.    

GQ: Kang Sara was that kind of character, played by Lee Da Hee.

LDH: This is why I didn’t want to play the typical secondary character, the typical second female lead. Yes she was given a fancy background but I also wanted to try something new, something different. Not something that could be shown through strong makeup, I wanted to add a layer of depth to her style.

GQ: I think we could feel the difference hence why it was so interesting. It was obvious that you studied this role a lot and this perfected style has stuck to you, the actress.

LDH: Well, first of all, I find it fun to radically search for something new. In a way that doesn’t stand out too much, while still being faithful to the character, I try to bring out the best of what I can do. Back when I was younger, I had no clue about all that so I just did what I was told to do. As I matured, I discovered what were my weaknesses, what to cover/hide etc. For example, you might think that I’m skinny, and that all my clothes fit me well. But I have a big bone structure so clothes don’t fit all that easily. But because I know this about me, I’m able to adapt,  know how to find the right clothes to try to keep looking pretty. Thanks to the GQ photoshoot, I got to try out this colorful mascara for the first time. And it’s so much fun. As I experience new things one by one, I’m able to see what’s right for me and what’s not.

GQ: It might be insensitive/rude to say this to an actress who has a career spanning 20 years, but I feel like the name Lee Da Hee has become clearer to me since “Beauty Inside”.

LDH: No it’s not insensitive. I’m really thankful that you remember me from that role. No matter how recent the drama is, the point is that you remember me because I left you a good impression. I really appreciate it. To be honest, a lot of people remember me from my role in Beauty Inside. People actually think I didn’t play in many projects before that.

GQ: But you did consistently star in various projects.

LDH: Yes, but I guess they weren’t memorable roles. I don’t think I played characters that stayed in people’s minds. Beyond the character and the role in itself. A drama can be loved by a lot of people, but beyond that, when I watch a show as a viewer, there are some actors that leave a deep impression in the way they play their characters. I wonder if I lacked that kind of aspect. I kept thinking to myself that maybe there was something missing in my acting that didn’t leave a memorable impression.

GQ: You left quite a strong impression after playing roles like Kang Sara in Beauty Inside and Cha Hyeon in Search: WWW. But more recently in LUCA: the beginning, I feel like you shed that strong image. If you found a type of role that fit you, you could have just kept on playing the same kind of characters, but it looks like you’re not afraid to radically change your image.

LDH: You’re right, I wanted to do something different. I wanted to show a different side, something that differed from the bright roles I usually played. After Beauty Inside and Search: www, I was afraid of being type casted. I didn’t want people to think I always played the same kind of roles. But I think I was was too confident when I chose to play in LUCA. I thought I could do anything.

GQ: You thought you could do anything but it didn’t turn out this way?

LDH: Even my mom thought the same thing. That it wasn’t a really good fit. In a few words, she thought my acting felt a bit forced. Hahaha. That it didn’t really flow well. The main takeaway is that I tried something different. If it turns out to be a good fit, then it’s good and if it doesn’t, it means I can just find something that does.    

GQ: Your mother sounds like the type of person who doesn’t mince her words.

LDH: My mom is very level headed. Just by looking at my back, she can tell if I was focused or thinking about something else. I spent a lot of time with my mom, even more so than with friends, and I also cried a lot in front of her. If I ask her “Mom, what’s wrong with me”, she’ll tell me not to think these kind of thoughts, that whatever I’m thinking is not true. We had a lot of moments like that.

GQ: You looked so cheerful today that I didn’t think you could also have rough times.

LDH: Why wouldn’t I? I went through times of depression when I would think, “Am I charismatic enough?”, “Do I lack something as an actress?”. There were times when my self-esteem was very low.

Since I’m tall, I used to have Directors who always said “you don’t match, you don’t match” (with fellow actors). Since I couldn’t do anything about my height, I thought that I could at least work on my body, make myself smaller. So I worked really hard on my diet. I used to eat rice cake soup that my mom used to make using beef broth, once every day. My mom followed along and did the diets with me. Every time. You can guess what kind of mom she is, right? I used to say: “Mom, should we at least drink soju since we only had one meal today?” And we’d share a bottle.

GQ: Hahaha, I see that you don’t hide your positive energy.

LDH: Everything becomes memories in the end. You should always strive to have a positive energy. And try not to think negatively. This way, you can find more motivation when an opportunity comes along, and this is also how more opportunities come up. I know that if I don’t love myself, I’ll end up being depressed and have a low self-esteem. So starting with myself, I also try to be nice to everyone, to compliment them. Let’s not be hurtful, and let’s try not to say mean things. I try to tell myself I’m a good person, and I project that to others as well. Let’s be nice to each other. Let’s be someone that gives off a good energy.

GQ: Why did you hurt your knee?

LDH: Ah, this? (Points to her left knee). I rode one of those electric scooters and fell as I tried to avoid an electric pole.

GQ: It must have hurt a lot if you fell while riding it.

LDH: I’m okay now. It was a bit concerning at first, but I’m just glad I didn’t hurt my face. It’s too bad I fell while riding it for the first time, but I wanted to try it so I learned my lesson now. I don’t even look at the scooters now. I know they’re too dangerous for me.

GQ: You made a very decisive conclusion based on your experience.

LDH: Yes, I should never try to ride a scooter again.

GQ: I also see a scar on your neck. Do you fall often?

LDH: Hahaha. No, I was washing a necklace. It’s a necklace made with my grandmother’s ring but the edge is a bit sharp. I got scratched while washing it a bit hastily.

GQ: Did you grow up under your grandmother’s care?

LDH: No I didn’t... actually both of my grandparents died in a car accident. They were so healthy so I thought they would live for a long time, but they suddenly passed away. When I didn’t work for a while, they used to say “When are you going to make money”, or “how long are you planning to live like that, without earning any money for your mom and dad”. It hurt me sometimes. But whenever I appeared on tv, they were the first ones to watch, and they always asked me when I would be on TV, on which channel... and when the time came, they always made sure to turn the tv on and watch my shows, and whenever we met, they told me they were proud of me, holding my hands and hugging me. I always think about these times. I miss them. Very much.

GQ: This is very moving. I believe these emotions and feelings make who you are.

LDH: I might sound like a crazy person, hahahah, but I have a picture of my grandma and grandpa next to my bed, and I always speak to them: “Grandma, I’m back”. If I’m upset about something, I say “Grandma, this thing just happened and this is so hard. I miss you.” - that’s how I cope and move on. This is how I try my best everyday. It makes me focus on what’s important. My family, tomorrow (the future) and all the things I love.

[i-dreamed-i-had-a-son]

Alright so I've seen a lot of opinions floating around and now it's time to add my two cents: the show's Loki is both similar to and distinct from the Loki we remember, and that is, or at least can be, a good thing

We have this idea of the "Loki we know," and we're frustrated that he's not being adapted faithfully--and to a degree, this is correct. Marvel very intentionally chose 2012 Loki as the version to resurrect, because that is when Loki was at the height of his popularity. By doing this, they could get the fanbase that Loki has always had to watch the show, while also avoiding much of the character distortion that came after TDW. A great idea! But then, instead of bringing this character into the show and authentically representing him, they smashed him up with Ragnarok Loki's portrayal. This was mostly done to engage general viewers and to maintain a slightly lighter tone, but both of these are mistakes: first of all, the general viewership has never been Loki's core, active fanbase. But I get it--you want to make money. The second, more egregious mistake, is that you absolutely could have kept a lighter tone with 2012's Loki, and then easily adapted him from there. At the end of Avengers, he's making jokes, and we see even more of these in Endgame. That's humor that's authentic to the character, and doesn't feel disrespectful like Ragnarok was. When we see the Ragnarok style of humor popping up, we immediately get defensive because of how that movie treated him, and we say, "This isn't the Loki we know." But the Loki we know is, to a degree...wrong.

This might seem a bit harsh at first, but I think the fandom as a whole is unwilling to let go of a slightly distorted version of Loki, and that's coloring the fan response to the show. Because we've spent so long with a character that has had relatively few instances of development or even screen time, we've become attached to the version of the character we think we know, sometimes without realizing that collective memory has shifted our perception of him slightly. We're unwilling to let the character change at all, even if at points this growth could be done well--and even if the character was faithfully adapted, he would be met with criticism because he wouldn't be "what we know"; he couldn't be, because we as a fandom created that character, over time and without really recognizing it. To a degree, that kind of misplaced criticism is mixing with the legitimate critiques of the series. It makes us unwilling to look at the good things that are present, even among the flaws.

As an example, let's talk about Loki as a planner, and how his actions in the series compare to those in the earlier movies. A common sentiment I've heard is that throughout episode two (and to a degree, episode one) Loki is just kind of going along with everything. He doesn't seem to have a plan, and this makes people uncomfortable, since the "Loki we know" was a great planner. Wasn't he?

Most of the basis for the "Loki we know," comes from Thor and Thor: the Dark World, so I'll be using those as my "proof texts," so to speak. In those two movies, we see plenty of examples of Loki making spur-of-the-moment decisions to take advantage of a situation; he's a very flexible, adaptable character by nature (as I've discussed before), so this makes sense. The trouble is, I think the fandom memory of Loki has shifted enough that we forget exactly why and how he makes these decisions, and how they turn out. In contrast to what those films actually show us, we tend to think of Loki as a very strategic character, who is too clever to be caught off-guard. That's not the case.

Loki, in those films, has very little grasp or consideration of the consequences of his actions, because his emotions cloud his judgement; because of this, his plans (which are created responsively), and even actions he does not plan, fall apart disastrously. In Thor, when Thor is banished from Asgard, Loki sees an opportunity to step into the role his brother had filled. Then he discovers he is actually Laufey's son, and in response to this news and Odin's falling into Odinsleep, Loki plans to double-cross Laufey and kill him to prove his loyalty, taking the throne in the interim. He does have a plan, but it's one that he developed rather spontaneously based on the circumstances--he didn't plan for Odin to fall asleep so that he could assume the throne, that just...happened, and Loki forms a plan to adapt to it. But when he hears that Thor is trying to return to Asgard, all of his insecurities, compounded by having just discovered that he's actually a Jotun, come back full force; desperate to keep the small bit of identity he thinks he's managed to find, Loki sends an Automaton to kill Thor--whom he loves, and has even said so several times in the film--and then tries to destroy the Bifrost to keep Thor from coming back. These are decisions Loki hasn't truly evaluated; if he had, he wouldn't have made them, because they don't line up with his actual goal, as we see when Thor arrives. When Thor confronts him, Loki essentially has a breakdown, admitting in tears that his real motivation for all of this was just to be considered Thor's equal. He didn't hate Thor, he didn't hate Odin, he didn't even want to be king--he just wanted to be loved as much as his brother. But along the way, his real goal was clouded by his emotional state, and he stopped thinking clearly, instead just lashing out in a desperate bid to protect himself from more pain.

We see something similar occur in Thor: TDW. When Loki sends the guards "up the stairs to the left," he's not thinking about who they might find--he's just lashing out because he's been abandoned by his family, and he wants to exert whatever influence he can over the situation. He wants to do something, especially if it causes problems for Odin and Thor, and he thinks the opportunity has just landed in his lap. He hardly planned for it, but he's not going to pass it up. So he takes it unhesitatingly--and his mother dies. (Coincidentally, after both his father's rejection and his mother's death, Loki nearly dies himself, and at least one of those instances was deliberate. Hmmm...Loki doesn't want to live with the consequences of his actions? It's too painful for him to face what he's done?? Hmm??? But that's beside the point.) Once again, Loki's goals are unclear, and things go wrong because he's just acting on emotion.

All this to say, for Loki, plans are very flexible things that are basically defined as "whatever works best to get what I want," so to say that Loki is just going along with things in the series, and is thus out-of-character, is a bit of an unfair criticism; despite our misremembering, he is, as he's always done, very much acting as a reactive planner. As I've spelled out before, when Loki is thrown into the new environment of the TVA, he immediately starts gathering information, and shaping his responses based off of what he finds. He takes the chances he has to feel things out (at the Renaissance fair, for example), but mostly he bides his time and actively observes until an opportunity arises. This is standard for him, but viewers haven't really been receptive to it, because it isn't what we're expecting.

Now, Loki claims to have a larger plan (something that we think we remember being common), but that's not actually the case. When speaking to Lady Loki/(Enchantress??), he says his ultimate goal is to overthrow the TVA--but he also framed his supposed overall plan as "get an audience with the Time Keepers" when speaking to Mobius. Neither of these are true. In order to more effectively manipulate others, he pretends to have large-scale motivations: with Lady Loki/Enchantress, he knows she will likely only respect him if he claims to have an endgame, since she so clearly does herself, so he manufactures one she likely wouldn't oppose. Mobius, on the other hand, would likely be suspicious without the red-herring Loki throws him; since Mobius believes Loki's trying to get an audience with the Time Keepers, he doesn't become suspicious about how quickly Loki becomes eager to catch the other variant, which would otherwise have been an appropriately huge red flag. But these are just misdirections, further things that Loki is doing to keep himself in the best position possible. That's why his claims of a grand plan (particularly to Lady Loki/Enchantress) sound sudden or unrealistic: they are. But because we think we remember Loki being someone who would have a larger plan, we aren't able to see that he doesn't need to.

This time, unlike in Thor and TDW, Loki's immediate goals are clear: escape the TVA. Be free. Despite Mobius' attempts to get him into a hyper-emotional, and thus, less careful, state of mind, Loki keeps his wits about him. He's intentional with his decisions. He's not lashing out. For once, he's aware of and considers the consequences of his actions--we see him weighing the options as he stands in front of the portal--and he makes the right decisions because his goal is clear in his mind. And this makes all the difference. Loki plays the game expertly, and for the first time, he wins--he escapes.

And I think this is an excellent development, one that deserves more appreciation than we're giving it. It's a good thing that he's not behaving how we think we remember him, as some master planner--that would be being unfaithful to his character. Loki isn't the same as Lady Loki/Enchantress. He doesn't have a grand plan. He just, finally, knows what he really wants. That shows growth, and that is the kind of change we have to want to see, and be willing to accept; so in that regard, it's even good that this Loki is different than he actually was. The Loki we see in Thor and TDW is a highly emotional, and very broken, character, who reacts to his environment often without thinking of the potential consequences; the Loki we're being shown here is still emotional, still clearly affected by what he's gone through, but is now able--or is now being allowed!--to demonstrate his actual capabilities. He ACTUALLY GETS WHAT HE WANTS. That's the first time that's happened, the first time his attempts to protect himself or outsmart someone have actually ended in success instead of disaster. And that's exactly what you should do with a character.

Now, a valid quibble with Loki's characterization is that these things are not obvious, and that is a very legitimate criticism. It's hard to see that Loki is manipulating Mobius by pretending to be helpful, because the show seems to be framing it in a way that encourages us to take Loki at face value. Loki's behavior is an intentional obfuscation, but it can be hard to realize that if it seems like that's what the show is telling us Loki really is. Personally, I justify this by saying that the show is showing us Loki as he wants to be perceived--when Loki is bluffing in episode one, he seems cartoonish and over the top, but certainly nothing like he actually is, and this is what he intends. When he seems too jovial and trusting in episode two, that's because that's what he's presenting to Mobius. It's about whether we buy into the act as much as the other characters do--which is why Loki's most in-character scenes come when he's alone. When he has no one to perform for, he stops performing for us, too, and we see the genuine presentation. But, I could be wrong--maybe this isn't intentional at all. Maybe the writers really are just trying to revamp a character from 2012 and are doing it clumsily, and that's why he seems out of character in moments like those. It's too early to say, and honestly, we may never be sure.

But there are real, valid, and undeniable moments of positive development, the likes of which Loki has never had the space to experience before. They are present if you are willing to look--but they are much less obvious to people who don't want to see them. I agree, they are hard to see, and if I'm being honest, I haven't loved the show anywhere near as much as I would have liked to so far. But I think the fandom as a whole is so caught up in this idea of the "Loki we know" that they don't see the Loki we have for what he is--people are too attached to a misremembering of Loki's previous actions to realize that the change in his behavior isn't a regression or a flaw in his writing but a sign of growth. We're too attached to his brokenness and weakness to let him become strong.

We are defensive about Loki's character because of how it's been mishandled in the past, but if you actually look, you'll find that there is actually a lot of good in what we're being given. I'd agree that the show has to get better about making that obvious if it wants to succeed. But I think some of the harsh criticism the show has been receiving is unwarranted. It might not be perfect, and some of these decisions on the parts of the writers might not be intentional, but Loki has always been a character we've had to think about in order to understand him. Just like this show, there is much good about him beneath the surface. And for as much trouble as it causes sometimes--I'm glad that isn't changing.

[waffles-for-brunch]

This project began as an indirect response to a few negative tweets in the days following the Valentine's Day Destiel wedding. During such time that “certain sources” chose to speak against the impromptu "wedding" and state that the direction of the show never included sexuality or romance. Since this argument has sparked a bit of discourse as to the validity of Dean Winchester and Castiel's relationship and sexualities, I began this edit as an exploration of observations throughout the entire 15 season run of the series. (That's not to say that Sam does not also have his own impactful romances throughout the show -he does have several notable ones- but in his case they are never debated upon or erased.)

There are three complete edits linked below. The differences are explained in their descriptions. (I also recommend downloading for best quality rather than simply watching in the browser, but it’s your choice)

BiDeanEdit: (Click here to download)

Runtime: 18:04:44

File Size: 10.0 GB (10,741,415,805 bytes)

Series long compilation edit (in sequence) of Dean Winchester and Castiel’s relationships and intended expressions of their sexualities (ie interest in both genders). This edit focuses on their relationship as it develops with one another, their other notable relationships (DeanxBenny, CasxMeg, DeanxLisa, etc), and the framework around their sexualities with small scenes of expression (ie Dean in ‘Playthings’ or ‘Everybody Hates Hitler’, or early seasons Dean & his transgressions with women, or Cas in ‘Caged Heat’)

BiDeanMLMEdit: (Click here to download)

Runtime: 14:40:57

File Size: 8.05 GB (8,649,798,685 bytes)

Series long compilation edit (in sequence) of Dean Winchester and Castiel’s relationships and intended expressions of their sexualities. This one is the same as the last but with only MLM content (Otherwise referred to as ‘only the gay parts’). We focus on this more repressed side of their sexuality and see these clues laid out altogether in one fluid edit (these examples are also available in the previous edit, however are just not aligned beside any heterosexual content). DeanxCrowley, DeanxBenny, DeanxLee, DeanxCas, etc. 

DestielOnlyEdit: (Click here to download)

Runtime: 13:08:49

File Size: 7.17 GB (7,709,560,696 bytes)

Series long compilation edit (in sequence) of only Destiel related content. The same as the above edit, just simplified even more to only focus on Dean and Cas’ relationship over the years. 

Keep reading below to find my full analysis of the complete edit regarding these guys sexualities, relationships, and the parallels we can draw. 

To understand why it is that so many queer fans of Supernatural and other similar shows read queerness in characters and their relationships, we should look at the hays code established in 1930. At this time this certain code was established to monitor what was allowed to be depicted outright on film. Within the margins of what was to be stifled, was homosexuality. As such, filmmakers had to plant “queer-coded” seeds into the writing and subtext so that queer audiences watching could interpret these characters and relationships in this manner without the words and actions stating so outright. (At this time homosexuality could be depicted on film as long as said gay character was either a villain, caricature, or met an untimely end- feeding into the blossoming of the kill-your-gays trope. But that’s another topic for a later time.) 

As film changed over the years and times became more accepting of lgbt characters portrayals on screen outside of simple coding, this did not make the code obsolete. Queer-coding and queer-baiting are often used in media in present day as a way to pull in viewership. Networks are able to garner the best of both worlds, in a sense. They can draw in heterosexual audiences that may not want to watch queer media, whilst also drawing in queer audiences by coding some characters and relationships just enough to pull those viewers in. This works simply because there is such a lack of queer representation in most media that we’ll take what we can get. 

This is where Supernatural comes in. There is a reason that Supernatural and thus “Destiel” is known by some as “The Great American Queerbait.” This twelve years long gay slow-burn between one overly masculine character and his awkward angel best friend did not begin with the intention of romance or baiting, as many of these things generally don’t. However, once fans realized the chemistry between these two particular actors and characters, it became something blatantly written into the show. Sometimes jokingly, other times as legitimate moments of emotional intimacy between two characters. So to say that the show’s direction never included sexuality or romance is, to put it bluntly, bullshit. Just because something is not written in clear and concise wording right in your face, does not mean that it is nonexistent and that the writers did not know what they were writing into the show. (Not even to mention the actual love confession in 15x18, but I digress). 

We know very well that queer content has been written subtextually into media for the better part of seventy years. It is a language in media just as much as lighting is a language, just as much as certain camera angles, color design in costumes or set decor, and music design are languages. All of these, outside of the simple words said on screen, make up our media and these characters and our shows. Tv is a world of color, not black and white.

[[ further readings on the above topics: X X X X X ]] 

I decided upon this full edit encompassing both the female and male aspects of Dean Winchester and Castiel’s relationships & sexualities because oftentimes when we’re looking into potentially queer characters we tend to focus on the same sex attraction and neglect the opposite sex attraction. Both are very important to acknowledge and compare, if at the very least to view where they may overcompensate, where toxic masculinity may come into play, compulsory heterosexuality, trauma responses, etc. Sometimes what a character doesn’t do is just as important to interpret as what they do do. 

For instance, Dean Winchester. If we are to operate under the assumption that he is bisexual, any repression we witness throughout the series as to his male attraction is likely to be a result of his difficult upbringing, similar to most queer identifying people with childhood trauma. His father is a marine, the picture of manliness in which Dean himself blatantly embodies in an effort to impress and make his father proud in any way he can. Dean is already unlikely to seek out activities in any aspect of life of which might make John look at him in a different light (ie, in an every day setting, even simply watching Finding Dory- this is not something S1 Dean would have admitted to liking, but we see Dean in later seasons standing up for himself and his appreciation for it). 

Is it perhaps for this reason that we see Dean as an overly blatant and flirty ladies man in season 1 when John is still alive, while this side of him steadily declines as the series continues? It even becomes established in season 3- in light of Dean’s fears surrounding going to Hell, he enters an attitude for coping that Sam recognizes- hypermasculinity, promiscuity, deflection. Heightening the idea that this caricature of himself that he embodies is a mask that he wears in order to cope with something else. He is donning the image he assumes others think he should fit into. Sam calls him out on this through the years, and eventually this becomes something we see in him less and less as he feels more comfortable simply being himself. 

If we take into account the time of which this first season is filmed, this is 2005, a time where gay jokes were still funny and an overcompensating character was a joke attached to it. We see Dean built up in these first couple of seasons through this lens of jokes about a hyper-masculine character being mistaken for gay, however instead of this building up the masculinity to encourage a raging heterosexual characterization, this overcompensation is exactly what inadvertently sows the seeds of queer-coding. To queer watchers this reads as a deeply repressed character with childhood trauma who overcompensates when faced with observations of gayness and uses hypermasculinity to counteract these accusations. 

It is through circumstances such as “Bugs” in S1 or “Playthings” in S2 that we first see these ‘jokes.’ The brothers are mistaken as a gay couple. Dean being the more “masculine’ of the two characters has a blatant reaction to these situations (Overcompensating), and Sam’s lack of a reaction is what solidifies his own straightness all the more. Neither brother is homophobic (this becomes established as time goes on) so why would either have a problem with this mistake? Sam wouldn’t care because he’s clearly not gay- in fact, he usually just laughs it off. Dean would care because he wonders what about him looks gay? Do other people see it too? Do they know? What’s wrong with him? 

We also see another blatant example of this type of freakout in season 8. “Everybody Hates Hitler.”

(Images: “Playthings” S2xE11)

(Image below: S8 “Everybody Hates Hilter”)

We frame these situations in early seasons around girl of the week scenarios and brief bar flirtations. Have to make it clear that our manly straight character looks as manly and straight as possible. Dean is also in his 20s, he’s more carefree/not as traumatized yet, and he is a sexual man so he does sleep around quite a bit. What is notable, however, is how much this drops off in later seasons. As time goes on Dean seeks out less and less the fleeting encounters of one night stands, in favor of genuine connections- even if he himself frequently doubts his own ability to ever have a settle-down type of relationship or life. Lisa is the only long-term female romantic relationship Dean ever has throughout the series run, and this tentatively begins in season 5 and ends in season 6. 

Dean and Lisa’s relationship is founded more in a dream of something that Dean wants to be rather than who he actually is. Although he loves her, their bond is made through trauma and their relationship overall is reminiscent of a soldier who returned home from war with heavy PTSD and begins to burden the family that he will come to realize he doesn’t quite fit within anymore. 

Outside of this, his closest relationships from thereon out are between Benny, and Castiel. 

Let’s start with Benny. Throughout season 8 Benny is framed as an ex and his relationship with Dean directly parallels Sam and Amelia’s. Both brothers must confront their relationships with their ‘significant others’ and decide whether to cut them off or proceed. Both brothers found these people under circumstances in which they did not get along with them at first but were pushed together. Another person comes in the middle of their relationship (Amelia’s husband for Sam, or Cas/Sam for Benny). The brothers each resent the other’s significant other or the circumstances surrounding the relationship. Sam hates Benny because he is a vampire and Sam does not understand why Dean continually trusts him (which is a circumstance inherently queer-coded in itself for comparability to an unaccepting family). Dean does not care for Amelia simply for the fact that Sam chose her over looking for him in purgatory.

Other instances we see parallels between Sam’s romances and Dean’s:

“Sex and Violence” S4 siren: Nick(Siren)/Dean parallel to Sam/Dr Lady

Season 4: Ruby/Sam and Cas/Dean teamup parallels

S1 Dean pulling Sam from the fire away from Jess vs S12 Sam pulling Dean away from Cas who may die approaching Lucifer to fight

Season 8: Dean/Benny vs Sam/Amelia. Dean and Benny, since they’re essentially going through a breakup, are directly paralleled to Sam and Amelia and their breakup. See “Larp and the Real Girl” for Charlie and Dean’s conversation about Sam’s recent breakup and Charlie picking up on the fact that Dean might also be going through one. 

1x05 vs 8x07: Sam seeing Jessica on the sidewalk as they drive down the street vs Dean seeing Cas on the side of the road as he drives down the street

S11: Perhaps this one can be interpreted loosely and not necessarily romantic (esp on Sam’s end), but “O’ Brother Where Art Thou” both brothers are drawn to forces they actively fight against being drawn to. SamxLucifer and DeanxAmara. 

S11: “Beyond the Mat” not a relationship but with crushes/infatuations. Dean with Gunner Lawless and Sam with Rio. 

S15: Cas telling Dean that “We Are” real. vs Eileen being unsure what’s real and Sam kissing her and saying “I know that was real.”

S15: “The Trap” Dean loses all hope following the death of their friends and primarily Cas. Sam loses hope after Eileen’s death. Directly paralleled in the episode. (We also see Sam lose Eileen in 15x18, where Dean also loses Cas)

Additional parallels between Dean/Cas with anyone else:

Season 9/10: Cain/Colette vs Dean/Cas. “She only asked for one thing. To stop.” vs Cas asking Dean to “Stop”. Both circumstances referring to the Mark of Cain.

S12 “Lily Sunder Has Some Regrets” Lily (human)/Isham (angel) vs Dean (human)/ Cas (angel)

Led Zeppelin: This music means something within John/Mary’s relationship, which Dean directly acknowledges in 12x01 with Mary. We find out Dean has gifted Cas a mixtape of his “Top 13 Zepp Traxx” in 12x19. (the implications of Dean having made a mixtape for Cas, being its own point in a different discussion)

When Lucifer contacts a person to try and get them to open up to him, he uses their dead lover as a ploy. SamxJess, NickxSarah, VincexJen, DeanxCas - 15x19 when Lucifer calls Dean using Cas’ voice. 

The parallels of unreciprocated love/infatuation. DeanxCrowley and CasxHannah. Dean likes Crowley but clearly not the way that Crowley likes Dean. Cas likes Hannah like a friend or sister, but she keeps putting the moves on him for awhile and he appears deeply uncomfortable and has to shoot her down more than once. 

Parallels between Dean’s own relationships:

Dean in “Let it Bleed” torturing demons to find the location of Lisa and Ben vs Dean in Purgatory torturing monsters to find the location of Cas “The angel”

“The Rapture” opens in Dean’s dream which Cas visits and says he’s in trouble and gives Dean an address to go to immediately. “The Song Remains The Same” opens in Dean’s dream which Anna visits and says she’s in trouble and gives Dean an address to go to immediately. 

S6 Dean dodging calls from Lisa vs S12 Dean dodging Cas at the beginning of “Lily Sunder Has Some Regrets” (notable also how Sam treats both circumstances the same)

S11: “Into the Mystic” 11x11 Mildred tells Dean the key to living a long and happy life is to follow your heart. Later in the season “All in the Family” 11x21 When Casifer is still captured by Amara, she puts her hand to Cas’ heart and is able to connect with Dean to contact him. Hinting at the link between Cas and Dean’s “hearts.” 

Not necessarily a parallel but an observation. 7x01 when Cas is loaded up on God juice, and Dean has given up but Sam hasn’t and wants to talk to ‘the guy’, Dean says, “He’s not a guy, he’s God.” But in 11x18 Dean refuses to give up on Cas and let him continue to be possessed. Sam keeps speaking about Cas like he’s just a vessel and Dean says, “It? It’s not an it, Sam. It’s Cas.” Mostly this shows the development of their relationship and Dean’s willingness to continue to fight for him. 

Dean’s dream world with Pamela in S14, she says to Dean “How come you only want what you can’t have?” and in S15 during Cas’ confession scene he says to Dean, “The one thing I want, is something I know I can’t have.”

Before we delve into Dean and Castiel specifically, let’s explore a few more things regarding Dean. 

Let’s start with Cassie. This is Dean’s first romantic relationship we see on the show, and is arguably his first love. What is notable about her is her characterization and Dean in relation to her. We haven’t seen him in a relationship before, and thus this is the baseline to which we can draw how he is in this type of vulnerable state.

We see here that he is drawn to strong individuals. Cassie is a very strong willed character and can hold her own. She has a boldness about her. Dean appreciates that. We see similar in his next framed love interest: Jo Harvelle. Jo is another strong character, and though Dean sees her more as someone he needs to protect because she doesn’t have as much experience under her belt, he respects her intellect and strong will all the same. They connect through a love for hunting and mutual daddy issues. Personally, this is a relationship I view more as a little sister dynamic in a similar vein to Dean and Charlie, however this pairing is still worth noting because as it was written it was intended to potentially flourish into a romantic relationship. This did not pan out, though the seeds are still there. 

Next up is Anna. Again daddy issues are a solid connection these two hold, and while this relationship is more of a one-night-stand than anything else, there are still important points to be taken from this encounter. The first is just how much Dean cares. We don’t see very many sex scenes with Dean throughout the series, but of the ones we do see, it is apparent that he is a gentle and tender man. He cares. About even a single night with a woman. (Cassie, Anna, Lydia ’The Slice Girls”) This is a contrast to Dean’s general persona of the masculine straight promiscuous lady’s man. He has all the bravado of a man who ‘loves em and leaves em’, but in reality that is not who he is. This is another example of the faces Dean wears in front of certain people (and what he thinks they expect of him), and the person he is once he lets that mask fall. 

It may be important to note as well that Anna, (it is rumored) was originally meant to be more to Dean than this simple one night stand and connection. She was intended to become a romantic interest but, as it turned out, Dean and Cas had more chemistry so the arc that Anna was meant to follow was instead given to Castiel. 

It is another year until the apocalypse comes along, Sam dies, and Dean falls back into Lisa’s lap. While Lisa is another strong-willed woman who rolls with the punches, her lifestyle deviates from Dean’s usual romantic interests simply because of her offering of a normal life outside of everything he’s usually known. A life with her is dipping his toe into a life he could have had if he didn’t hold the weight of the world on his shoulders and hunt the things that go bump in the night.

This is Dean’s last “official” relationship of the series. After putting Lisa and Ben in danger by being someone that he cares about, Dean accepts that he’s simply not a guy that can have a normal life or a normal family. He cares about people and they get hurt. This is a weight he holds on his shoulders for the remainder of the show. He loves someone, or more accurately, they love him, and they’ll get hurt. End of story. It doesn’t help that immediately following this, Castiel “dies” too. 

Maybe it’s Lisa, maybe it’s Cas. Maybe it’s a combination of the two at this point in time, but Dean is never again the same when it comes to relationships after these events at the end of season 6. He becomes more cautious, tries to keep people an arm’s length away, and we even begin to see less and less promiscuity and flirting with miscellaneous women from this point on. 

Let’s talk about Castiel.

Although Dean has had various queer-coded moments throughout the beginning of the series and up to Castiel’s entrance in season 4, his minimal relationships up to this point have all been with women. Simply exploring the evolution of this relationship from Dean’s side of the picture, Dean doesn’t start to truly warm up to Castiel until perhaps the end of season 4. He begins the season unsure of the angel, perhaps even a bit afraid of him, before the two garner a sort of mutual respect as Dean begins to see that there’s more to him than simply an agent of heaven.

They’re friends in season 5. The quirky, strange angel that doesn’t understand social cues, stands too close, stares too much, and says things like “we’re making it up as we go” and “tonight you’re my little bitch.” He’s a far cry from the ethereal entity that showed up in Bobby’s kitchen just a year ago and threatened to toss Dean back into Hell. What really turns the curve, however, is “The End.” 

5 years in the future in the midst of an apocalyptic war, Cas is still around. He’s human and he’s stuck by Dean’s side through it all, even though this Dean is just a shadow of his former self. Then again, so is this Cas. But still, they stuck together. Dean isn’t used to that. He has very few people that have stuck by him for this many years. Could probably count them all on one hand at this point. Bobby and Sam at the top of the list. Everyone else either dies or leaves. And in this future, Bobby and Sam are dead, but Cas is still there.  

Dean has abandonment issues. His mother died when he was four, his dad was in and out emotionally and physically his entire upbringing, Sam left for Stanford the first chance he got. He’s got strings of dead friends and lost relationships surely in tow for years at this point, and half the time Dean has become accustomed to pushing people away before they have a chance to push him away first. (Ie Cassie, Lisa, often even Sam too at times). Cas won’t make these issues any better during their run together, but up to this point Cas hasn’t let him down. The simple fact that in this one future universe Cas had stuck by him, I’m sure that makes a big difference to Dean and actually may be imperative for their relationship going forward and the trust that forms between them. 

Something that becomes a large part of their relationship is Cas and Dean’s ability to have conversations with just their eyes. This is a shorthand that Dean is known to have with Sam on occasion, especially during times of combat. It takes a certain amount of intimacy and knowledge of the other person to be able to have a shorthand like this. The first instance we see this between them is quite possibly “It’s the Great Pumpkin, Sam Winchester,” when Dean convinces Cas that they can save the town. We see it again in the ‘beautiful room’ when Cas slams Dean up against the wall and Dean seems to understand what’s happening. Another instance, “The Song Remains the Same.” In a way, it’s a locking of eyes that just seems to say “trust me,” and they do. 

Sam wonders if Anna may be right. If killing him and scattering the pieces will stop this whole Lucifer vessel business. Sam asks Cas, Cas looks to Dean, they share a look, and Cas shuts Sam down. In all likelihood that plan could have worked, but Cas wouldn’t do that Dean. He wouldn’t do it to Sam either but at this point he’ll do anything at all for Dean. 

If we take a moment to consider Dean and Cas’ relationship here, it is unlike any of Dean’s previous ones. Dean never has this same kind of shorthand with any of his other relationships, save for possibly Benny to a certain extent. Cas is an odd guy, and Dean frequently describes him as such, but he finds it endearing (if “Free to be You and Me” is any indication this early in their relationship). The previous women in his life all had the same thing in common, that they’re strong willed, brave, and don’t put up with Dean’s shit when he’s being a shit. Cas does fit all this criteria, but he’s also someone that Dean has a hard time reading. Cas is so literal sometimes that Dean can’t tell what’s literal, what’s deadpan, and what’s just Cas’ personality as an angel. But at the end of the day, simply put, he likes him and he trusts him. Getting Dean Winchester’s full trust as quickly as Cas gets it is an anomaly all on its own. 

Dean’s female relationships are fairly surface level. They’re easy and fairly uncomplicated. Boy likes girl, girl likes boy. Girl gets mad at boy, relationship ends. Easy. Expected. His relationship with Cas isn’t easy. But the big endgame relationships seldom are. There’s blood, loss of trust, rebuilding, and there’s a pull that at the end of the day always brings them back to one another no matter how incredibly messy things get.  

And boy do things get messy. If we touch back into the end of season 6 where things end with Lisa and blow up with Cas, Dean is at an all time low in the relationship department. 

Dean takes Cas’ betrayal hard. Breakups are one thing. Leaving Lisa was expected. It was bound to happen eventually. Dean always knew that somewhere inside. He mourns leaving them, but knows it’s for the best. But with Cas’ betrayal at working with Crowley, he’s devastated all over again. 

Dean never expects his relationships to last forever, but again there’s a choice few people in his life he lets take up space on the list of those who might stick around. Bobby, Sam, Cas. I don’t think Lisa was ever on this list, as much as Dean wishes he could tell himself she and Ben were. But they weren’t. That relationship was a ticking time bomb. And when they nearly die because of his life and the creatures surrounding him every day, that’s the end of it.

Fast forward, season 7 is a time of mourning. He’s lost Lisa and Ben, he gets Cas back for all of 30 minutes before losing him all over again and never being able to repair that relationship. But he keeps the trenchcoat. Fishes it out of the lake, bundles it up, and keeps it in the back of every single car that he and Sam drive that year. 

Dean doesn’t keep mementos. Not of Cassie, not of Jo, Not of Anna, or even Lisa and Ben. No pictures, no items, just memories. You know what he does keep? He keeps his dad’s leather jacket, Bobby’s flask, pictures of he and Sam and his mom. Is keeping the trenchcoat in the back of the car for a year similar to those familial keepsakes? Maybe. But it’s also more than that. It’s covered in blood and lake water, and I’m sure Dean would explain it away that Cas was family and that’s why he kept the coat. Probably even believes that too. 

Then we have purgatory. 

Dean prays to Cas every night. He could get out of that place just on his own, but he stays there for months in full combat just to look for the angel and get him out with him.

“First we find the angel”

“Cas, we’re gettin’ out of here. We’re going home.”

“Cas, buddy, I need you.”

“Let me bottom line it for you. I’m not leaving here without you. Understand?”

“Cas, we’re gonna shove your ass back through the eye of that needle if it kills all three of us.”

“It’s gonna work. Nobody gets left behind.”

When we meet Benny, Dean’s only other primary male pairing of consequence, he is not trusted. This team-up is one of strategy and a mutual goal only- at least at first. Dean and Benny fight well side by side, but the trust only runs so far. That is, until during one particular fight with leviathans in which Cas nearly bites it, Benny saves the angel’s life. This is the main turning point for Dean’s entire trust in Benny from here on out. 

“Benny has never let me down.” Dean says later to Sam. And he never did. He saved Cas, got Dean out of purgatory, and then later on he gets himself sent back to purgatory just so he can help Dean’s brother get out of there. 

Dean and Benny’s relationship was “pure” in purgatory. They didn’t have to worry as much about the fact that Benny was a vampire and Dean was a hunter, they were just brothers in arms who earned one another’s trust, respect and love. There’s no way you let a man kill you and send you to purgatory to save his brother if you don’t love him. 

 Their relationship once they broke out of purgatory is where things began to sour, not because of anything either of them did to the other, but more the space they let grow. Regular Earth was different from purgatory and these men had to go back to their roles and say sayonara. “What happened in purgatory stayed in purgatory” and all that. Benny was a vampire and Dean was a hunter. That kind of thing mattered here despite the fact that they did care for one another. 

Dean and Benny’s tumultuous relationship in relation to the people in Dean’s life could be reminiscent of a queer experience in itself. A lack of acceptance from Sam, Bobby, Martin- Dean’s family. Not because of who Benny was, but what he was. Pair this with the already established fact that Amelia and Sam were a direct parallel to Dean and Benny, Season 8 has been one of the most blatantly queer-coded seasons as of yet. 

Which brings us to “Goodbye Stranger.” It is established early on this season that Dean feels that there’s something wrong with Cas, something off about him. The fact that they don’t know how he popped out of purgatory is just one part of it. It’s in the way he acts, how spacey he is, the fact that he doesn’t answer Dean’s prayers. “I always come when you call.” Cas once said. And he did. Until now.

This is another aspect of their relationship which is simply there and not spoken about much- similar to their staring and eye communication thing they do. Dean started their relationship unable to read all of Cas’ quirks very well and unsure of the guy. Now, he’s fluent in the language of Cas. He knows by tone of voice, by shiftiness, by his expressions- when something is up. Maybe he started paying more attention after the whole Rafael situation until he could read Cas like the back of his hand, or maybe he just started paying attention just to pay attention. 

He’s known something is wrong for months while Cas has been under Naomi’s control. Just the same as years later, he knows something is up when Lucifer is taking a ride in Cas’ body. And he knows in 12x15 just by the way Cas speaks on the phone that something is off with him. 

They come upon the angel tablet in the crypt, and Dean does fight back when Cas starts in on him, but he spends even more energy trying to get Cas to come back to him and fight whatever force has him under control. He never once stopped to think that this was just Cas. “This isn’t you! Fight this!” Dean would repeat over and over as Cas beats him nearly to death. 

There was a moment he certainly thought that Cas would kill him, and it seemed like he was more bothered by the fact that it was Cas that would do it more so than the thought of dying. 

Cas breaks through the mind control, heals Dean. Then he leaves. So, again, Cas leaves. He keeps doing that to Dean. I stated before that Dean’s abandonment issues come into play in this relationship, but unlike at the beginning where Dean saw a future that Cas stays in, this Cas keeps coming and going. This makes it difficult for Dean to trust him fully, to rely on him. But the fact of the matter is that he does still trust him completely, and that’s what bothers Dean. 

When Cas does come back again, collapsed and bloody in the middle of the street, Dean puts up a wall. He’s hurt and he’s tired. He doesn’t want to trust him as much as he does and he definitely doesn’t want him to keep coming and going without a thought. (What’s interesting to note here, though, is Dean’s change in character as this occurs through the years. Because while here he may simply give Cas the cold shoulder and not talk much about his hurt in this situation, we see later on in 12x19 after Dean has been fretting for days about where Cas has gone off to, and Cas finally does return, he voices his side of things. “With everything that’s going on, you can’t just go dark like that. We didn’t know what happened to you. We were worried, that’s not okay.”)

Naomi hits the nail on the head when she visits Dean after Castiel disappears and she notices Dean still hasn’t warded the boat against angels. It is moments like these that we realize just how much everyone else around these two also notice their chemistry and their deep devotion to one another, always seeming to fall back to one another. 

“I think you have me confused with the other angel. You know, the one in the dirty trenchcoat who’s in love with you.” - Balthazar S6

“The stench of that impala is all over your overcoat, angel.” - Crowley S6

“Castiel? Oh, he’s not here. See, he has this weakness. He likes you.” -Uriel S4

(to Dean) “Go ask him, he was your boyfriend first.” - Meg S7

“I have tiptoed through all your little tulips. Your memories, your little feelings, yes. I know what you hate. I know who you love, what you fear.” - The Empty S13

“And then after a rousing speech, his true weakness is revealed. He’s in love... with humanity.” - Metatron S9

“I’m sorry, did you just say that you lost a Winchester? Because, one, that’s... interesting. And, two, how is it that you lost Dean? I thought the two of you were joined at the... you know, everything.” - Kipling S14

“And for what again? Oh, that’s right, to save Dean Winchester. That was your goal, right? I mean, you drape yourself in the flag of heaven, but ultimately, it was about saving one human, right? Well, guess what? He’s dead, too.” - Metatron S9

“Don’t lose it all over one man.” - Hannah S9

“The very touch of you corrupts. When Castiel first laid a hand on you in Hell he was lost!” - Hester S7

“Oh, sweet. Almost anything. Castiel? He’s dead. All the way dead. Because of you.” - Miriam S13

“And then you’d kill the angel, Castiel. Now that one, that I suspect would hurt something awful.” - Cain S10

“He should know this- Lucifer, his favorite, isn’t doing so well. Say nothing of the vessel, your friend Castiel.” - Amara S11

“I’m gonna cure you of your human weakness, the same way I cured my own. By cutting it out.” - Isham S12

Bonus: Dean to Sam about Garth’s baby Castiel- Dean: “This Cas keeps looking at me weird.” Sam: “So kinda like the real Cas.”

It is time and again that opposing forces recognize the relationship between Dean and Castiel, and it’s commented on and used against them frequently.

As we move forward to the angels falling and human Castiel, this season opens up with dean in the hospital with a very ill Sam. The first thing he does before contacting anyone else is pray to Castiel. There’s a moment in 9x03 where Castiel walks into a church and speaks with a woman there. He expresses his lack of faith and she says, “I guess that’s why we pray. You need something stronger than yourself.” Dean never prayed until he started praying to Cas. He prayed to Cas during the apocalypse, in purgatory, when Sam was sick during the trials, now in this hospital. Dean might not have faith in God, but he does in Cas. 

Castiel is human, and while Dean tears apart the grid trying to find him while angels are on Cas’ ass, he still watches him die, then has to kick him from the safety of the bunker the very same day. Up until this point, Cas has been a genuine part of their family regardless of their squabbles over the past months, but kicking him from the bunker damages that. Once the reasoning comes to light, however, Cas is forgiving immediately. He’d forgiven Dean even before that. That’s one thing about Cas that Dean never seems to get over either. Dean can get angry and take things out on him, kick him from the bunker, make stupid decisions and nearly kill himself, holler at him, blame him, but Cas comes back every time. He forgives him every time. It’s already overwhelming when Sam does this, but the ease at which Castiel consistently forgives Dean is a lot. 

Dean gets the Mark of Cain. It’s a means to an end, he says. When he becomes a demon as a result, this is when his relationship with Crowley is deepened. This relationship is an interesting one because it’s essentially an unrequited example. Dean likes Crowley, and when he’s a demon he has a good time, but Crowley’s feelings appear to go much deeper- even if he tries not to show it. 

 It is very possible that Dean and Crowley’s relationship is a formation more as a result of a joke than anything else- where the writers are concerned. But whether that was the intention or not, this is a relationship that continues to affect Crowley’s actions towards Dean for the rest of the series. He doesn’t let Dean kill innocents as he’s a demon, he saves Castiel from certain death as his grace drains, he gives Sam the information to find Dean so he can be cured, and he aids in getting the mark removed from Dean even as Sam attempts to kill him in the process. In return, Dean gives Crowley the benefit of the doubt more often, and they share a sort of mutual respect. What differs here, however, from Dean’s relationships with Benny or Castiel, is Dean’s actions. It is clear that Dean doesn’t feel as deeply as Crowley does, so this is an interesting relationship to compare side by side with the others. 

Not only this, but DeanxCrowley in these first few episodes can be seen as a parallel with CasxHannah. Two unreciprocated relationships which do not last long in this particular phase, but do result in a friendship within these pairings as time goes on. 

Still with the Mark of Cain, Dean and Cain have a few things in common. Cain had said that his wife, Colette, before she died had asked him to stop. Stop the killing. It’s several months after that that Dean is going off the rails and Cas, behind Dean as he’s walking away, asks Dean to stop. He nearly kills Cas then, almost fulfilling Cain’s words just weeks earlier: “And then you’ll kill the angel, Castiel. And that, I suspect, would hurt something awful.” This is a direct romantic parallel written into the show. 

When the darkness is released, Amara and Dean are immediately drawn to one another through some sort of connection as a remnant of the mark. This relationship is another interesting one, because it ties in to true desire and consent. Dean is drawn to her, yes, and she is sold as a sort of potential love interest this season, but Dean himself doesn’t want anything to do with her. He’s hypnotized when he’s around her, but as soon as he’s away this energy dissipates. 

So in light of this storyline let’s talk about consent and the sexualization of Dean Winchester for a second, shall we?

Dean is an often highly sexualized individual. He plays along more in his younger days, but the older he gets the more frustrated he becomes with the whole situation. I’m sure there are more but here are some tentative examples (This is also something that happens to Sam a decent amount as well.): 

Wendy at the psych ward in “Sam, Interrupted” kisses Dean

Pamela touching Dean’s inner thigh in “Lazarus Rising” 

Ezra in “Time After Time” kisses Dean without consent

Gets turned into a vampire because he’s “pretty”

Pamela in “Dark Side of the Moon” kisses Dean

Almost becomes a vessel for Sandy’s mate in “The Thing” because she “enjoys looking at his face”

Amara kisses Dean in “O’ Brother Where Art Thou”

Mildred gropes Dean’s leg in “Into the Mystic” and continually makes advances even tho he’s uncomfortable. 

Random girl slaps Dean’s ass in “The Last Call”

Ellie in S8 wants to sleep with Dean and even kisses him randomly

Meg kisses Dean as he’s being held against his will in “Sympathy for the Devil”

Granted, there aren’t a plethora of examples, but it’s still a lot and it is interesting to see how often Dean has been sexualized for someone else’s pleasure. It is bound to work into his characterization as well, and his sense of self-worth. He’s often described as the pretty one of the brothers, and seeing as he is the more promiscuous of the two, it is assumed that he welcomes all of or most of the attention that comes his way.

It is for this reason in particular that the situation with Amara is bothersome to me. Not only is Dean taken advantage of physically, but his mind is essentially hypnotized whenever she is near, not giving him total control over his actions or desires. Amara is in part meant to be sold as a romantic interest, but throughout the season Dean continually expresses his discontent. He’s even ashamed to admit these feelings to Sam and Cas, even though he knows it isn’t his fault he still feels responsible. (Which, if we think about it, this is could be a queer allegory too. The lack of choice, feeling shame, etc.)

What is notable, however, is the day that they attempt to capture Lucifer and speak to Cas to get him to expel Lucifer from his body. Amara makes a surprise appearance and captures Lucifer/Cas herself. Dean yells to Cas. This catches Amara’s attention and appears to confuse her, and even Lucifer, seeing as when Dean is around her he’s meant to have eyes for just her because of their “bond”. His link to Castiel appears to be stronger, however.  

Amara uses this connection between Cas and Dean when she wishes to contact Dean, simply by placing her hand over Castiel’s heart. She says to Dean, “If you should cross paths, if (god) should reach out to you, he should know this - Lucifer, his favorite, isn’t doing so well. Say nothing of the vessel, your friend Castiel.”

If we backtrack a moment, Dean finding out that Castiel is possessed in the first place is a very emotional time for Dean. He doesn’t want to accept that Cas would make such a decision, put himself in that kind of danger, and choose to leave once again. Sam, the arguably more rational thinker at this current time, tries to rationalize that Cas may not come back willingly since he chose to let Lucifer in. “Not possible.” Dean says. It’s simply not possible that Cas doesn’t want to come back to them. It’s not something he can accept. 

The next several episodes are begun with Dean either losing sleep trying to figure out what to do about Cas, or simply moping about. Sam has to comfort him each time. This is notable behavior as well, because Dean isn’t often one to wear his heart on his sleeve this frequently. Certainly he has his moments, but much of the time when he’s distressed he simply buries it all down and puts up a front. He doesn’t do that here. In fact, once they do begin to put together a plan with Crowley, Sam thinks they should still utilize Lucifer in the fight against Amara but thinks it’s foolish to move him into a new vessel. 

((I actually counted up the mopey Dean scenes- between finding out Cas is possessed, to getting Cas back.))

There are four convos with Sam (multiple episodes) where Sam has to comfort Dean and say something along the lines of “we’ll get him back.” (Just as an aside, I don’t think there has ever been a scene in the series where Dean comforted Sam about Cas, it’s always Sam having to comfort a freaking out Dean)

Then, of course, there’s the scene where Dean comforts a victim and she says “I watched the man I love die. There’s no normal after that.” 

There’s the “It’s not an ‘it,’ Sam. It’s Cas.” scene. 

There’s Dean trying to get through to Cas when they capture Lucifer. 

There’s the Dean yelling “Cas?” to Casifer when Amara is in the room. 

There’s two more scenes where Sam comforts Dean again. 

There’s “The Chitters” episode with the gay hunter couple. (This isn’t a direct relation, but more of an honorable mention because it seems abstractly relevant)

Amara connecting to Dean through Cas’ heart.

Dean freaking out about making it to Cas in time and again talking to Sam about it.

Dean asking “what about Cas?” as they’re planning the attack with God against Amara.

Someone has said once that you can tell that Dean is in love with Cas because Sam isn’t. It’s in moments like this that this becomes readily apparent. Yes, Sam cares about Cas, of course. But it’s just different than the way that Dean cares about Cas. When Dean cares about certain people, this love weaves into the very fabric of his being and he just feels it so completely and overwhelmingly, he can’t simply not fight for it. 

“Dean, it’s a strong vessel, it’s held Cas for years, and we know what he’s been through.” Sam says.

“It? It’s not an ‘it,’ Sam. It’s Cas.”

Dean appears almost shocked that these words would pass through Sam’s mouth. He’s confused that Sam wouldn’t fight for Cas just as much as Dean would. The type of love they each have for the angel is just different. Visually, action-wise, reaction-wise. This conversation in “Hell’s Angel” highlights that. 

You know what else highlights it? The fact that when they do trap Lucifer, it’s only Dean who gets through to Cas and talks to him to get him to come back and expel Lucifer. It’s Cas only seeking Dean’s forgiveness in S7 when putting the souls back in Purgatory. It’s Dean in S6 being the only one to defend Cas in “The Man Who Would Be King.” It’s Dean later in that same episode being the one to get through to Cas in the circle of holy fire. It’s “I did it, all of it, for you.” It’s Dean carrying around that trenchcoat for a year and mourning when Sam doesn’t. It’s Bobby checking in on Dean mourning Cas, but doesn’t check in with Sam about it. It’s Sam pulling Dean out of the apocalypse world in season 12 as Dean screams for Cas and physically fights against Sam to get to Cas. It’s Sam seeing Cas dead on the ground minutes later, but still able to walk away while Dean is frozen in place, frozen in shock. It’s Dean being the only one to wrap up Cas’ dead body. It’s Sam always having to reassure Dean that Cas is probably fine, whenever he goes missing for a little while. It’s Dean hardly able to function in S13 with this encompassing grief over Cas’ death and yelling “It got him dead! Now you might be able to forget about that, but I can’t.” It’s S15 when Rowena tells Dean and Cas to fix their quarrel before it’s too late, and later Dean in purgatory not sure of it is too late as he’s praying for Cas to be okay and crying against a tree. 

Sam’s reactions are important to take into account. Sam cares, yes, but Cas isn’t as wholly encompassing in his life as he is in Dean’s. If anything else is to prove that, it’s the way that Dean grieves (I mean, if you were to put Sam in Dean’s place in 15x09 in Purgatory and their fight, there’s no way that Sam would react this extremely). 

There are three different points to highlight Dean’s grief. The first is season 7 with the trenchcoat, which we’ve already talked about. The second is when Cas is possessed by Lucifer, which we have covered as well. The most damning, however, is Dean’s season 13 grief arc following Cas’ death. Dean also loses his mother during this time and a few other friends, but considering how he reacts when Cas comes back, a great amount of this grief has to do with Cas. Dean completely loses hope and faith in anything at all during this time. He hates Jack for giving Cas false hope and getting him killed. He doesn’t believe in their mission anymore. He doesn’t believe anything matters at all. “Right now, I don’t believe in a damn thing.” Dean admits to Sam. When Cas comes back from the dead, however, he pulls a complete 180. He has hope again. He has faith. And all of it begins with Cas.

Lastly, Dean never hooks up with anyone again after Castiel’s final resurrection. We can go through an outline of the steady decline of Dean’s hookups and relations outside of Cas as the decade goes, but during this three year window specifically, Dean’s only pairing is Cas. Sure, he might flirt with someone every now and again, but this never goes anywhere. (Arguably the person he flirts with the most in any episode in these final three seasons is Daphne, but idk if that even counts much considering she is a cartoon.)  And as Pamela says once in Rocky’s bar: “Besides, you don’t want me. You just like to flirt. I’m psychic so I kinda know.” And that was just in Dean’s head anyways so it’s probably even more true than had Pamela actually said it herself. 

When Jack comes in the picture in season 13, and Castiel comes back from the dead, this makeshift little family is formed. All three men act as father figures to this half-angel kid at different capacities, and amongst this dynamic another is formed a bit further between Dean and Cas. They’ve already been acting a bit as an old married couple in recent years (Lily Sunder Has Some Regrets, anyone?) but this co-parenting scenario they’ve found themselves in has solidified this dynamic all the more as they collaborate on the issues that arise with Jack. In “Lebanon” when John Winchester comes back for a brief period, John even says to Dean that he’d hoped he would get a family someday and get out of hunting and such. Dean replies, “I have a family.” Sam, Cas, and Jack are his family. Cas has been family for a long time, but here and now Dean just isn’t looking for anything else or anything normal. He’s happy with himself and the people he’s surrounded by. He’s not looking for anything else or anyone else. 

For a change of perspective, let’s check out Castiel’s relationships over the years.

Unlike Dean, Castiel’s queerness and interest in Dean has been officially canonized. We can speculate all we want on the legitimacy of Dean’s love for Cas, but we can speak in certainties about Castiel. Castiel is in love with Dean Winchester. Speculation can come in when we consider, just how long has this love existed for him? Let’s start from the beginning.

Right off the bat when we meet Castiel, he’s a semi-emotionless soldier of heaven who works under strict orders and doesn’t have much free-will. Dean begins to change this. We can see even in their first couple encounters that Castiel is interested in Dean- in what he has to say, intrigue in the fact that Dean talks back to the angels (despite that these angels are unkillable beings and could smite him on the spot), the fact that he’s snarky and brave and questions everything. Where Uriel finds Dean annoying and blasphemous, Castiel finds the back-talk fascinating. Dean’s words impact Cas, and it’s not long before he starts to have doubts about Heaven. Following these orders blindly and unquestioningly starts to seem foolish when Dean puts things in a different perspective. 

Even after Cas undergoes what some have funnily dubbed “conversion therapy” in “The Rapture” (when Cas had finally decided on going against Heaven and to help Dean stop the apocalypse) it’s still not enough to stop him completely. A bit more time with Dean and he’s convinced yet again to help this one human man stop the apocalypse with his brother. He even dies for him and this new mission of his. 

Castiel throughout this first season is interesting because we see firsthand his struggle to understand beginning to feel emotions and accept thinking for himself. “For the first time, I feel...” He says to Anna. He wants her to tell him what to do. He wants orders because that’s all he knows, and he doesn’t understand why suddenly he cares. It hurts him to send Dean in to torture Alastair. It hurts him even later when in the beautiful room Dean dismisses him with a “What do you care, you’re already dead. We’re done.” 

It’s possible that in these first several months, or even these first couple seasons, that Castiel follows Dean around and does as he asks because he’s allotted Dean as the new being he serves. Because serving is what he knows. But it’s also through this that he begins caring more and more. He learns more how to express certain emotions, he learns more about humanity, he learns more about what is important in life and what is worth fighting for. As Cas will admit himself 12 years later, “Ever since we met, ever since I pulled you out of Hell... Knowing you has changed me. Because you cared, I cared. I cared about you. I cared about Sam. I cared about Jack... I cared about the whole world because of you.”

We start to see sprinkles of this especially throughout season 5 as Cas begins to come to terms with caring and adopting Dean’s mindset to care. Consider Sam for a moment. He and Cas don’t necessarily get along a lot and mostly just tolerate one another in these early days. However, as we see in “Abandon All Hope” when Castiel is captured by Lucifer, Cas gets visually upset at the concept of Lucifer taking Sam as his vessel. “You are not taking Sam Winchester. I won’t let you.” 

Sam and Cas don’t have much of a relationship at this point, but Cas cares because Dean does. In “The Song Remains the Same” not long later, he even refers to Sam as his friend.

By the time S6 rolls around Castiel is in the midst of a civil war in heaven entirely because he has adopted the Winchester’s all encompassing mindset on the importance of free-will. Castiel is making his own choices, and he does everything he can to protect the Winchesters from harm as he does so. He decides not to seek out Dean’s help while he’s raking leaves because Dean had already sacrificed too much in Castiel’s eyes. He raises Sam from perdition because he feels it the right thing to do. He re-sinks the Titanic to keep the boys from being killed by Fate. 

Personally, I think Castiel has been slowly falling in love with Dean this entire time, he’s just not aware what this feeling is. But this becomes even more plausible to me when we get Castiel’s perspective in “The Man Who Would Be King.” Cas cares what Bobby and Sam think of him, sure, but all he focuses on is Dean. Dean’s happiness and ensuring he not sacrifice more. Dean’s loyalty even as Cas seems to be guilty. Dean’s words when they capture Cas in holy fire. 

The problem is, their relationship this season is also rocky. Cas seems to think that he’s merely a tool at the Winchester’s disposal and not much else. But he doesn’t mind because he cares about them so much, so what do his feelings matter? He sees himself as their protector. Their guardian angel. A role he’s fine with filling regardless of how they feel in return. 

But when things get bad, Dean says to him “Next to Sam, you and Bobby are the closest things I have to family. You are like a brother to me. So if I’m asking you not to do something... You’ve gotta trust me, man.” and Cas seems genuinely surprised at this admission. Emotional, even. 

As time goes on, Castiel’s actions nearly primarily revolve around Dean

After Cas realizes his error and is sending the purgatory souls back to their place, he tells Dean repeatedly that he’ll find some way to redeem himself to him. That’s the most important thing to him then. 

When Cas smites the demons outside of the mental hospital in 7x17, all of his flashes of memories coming back were memories of Dean. 

Partially to aid Sam and partially to redeem himself to Dean, Cas takes on Sam’s Hell brain in the asylum and goes crazy.

Cas runs in purgatory to keep the leviathans away from Dean. 

Cas breaks out of Naomi’s mind control/brainwashing because of his feelings for Dean.

Let’s talk about that final bullet point for a moment. The Naomi chapter is damning in “Goodbye Stranger.” It isn’t copies of both Sam and Dean that Naomi trains Castiel to kill hundreds upon hundreds of times. No, it’s ONLY clones of Dean. 

“What broke the connection?” Dean will ask after Castiel heals him in the crypt and takes control back over his mind. “I don’t know.” Cas will say. It wasn’t the angel tablet. That may have unwound the last of Naomi’s control over him, yes, but he’d dropped that angel blade before that. It was Dean that broke that connection. Even if this remains unsaid, it doesn’t make it any less true. Maybe Castiel starts to have an understanding of what his feelings are and what they mean here, but he won’t be truly sure until he soon becomes human. 

Before we get there, though, we’ll take a brief pause to explore Cas’ heterosexual explorations and connections. 

First is Meg. Cas’ relationship with Meg is born of sexual exploration more than anything else at its conception. He’d just been watching porn in his downtime and when Meg kisses him, he goes with it enthusiastically. Later, he seems to have a certain infatuation with her in his “crazy” state, and seems to trust her perhaps simply because she had been watching over him in the institution. 

This is interesting because in his “crazy” state, Cas is a lot more raw and unfiltered and optimistic than he ever has been before. He compliments her, is concerned with her safety, and trusts her. On the contrary, with Dean, Cas is a lot more hesitant and even fearful when talking about certain subjects with him because of his past failings. He tries to keep the peace without directly getting involved because his direct involvement in the past had failed them all so spectacularly. 

He and Meg continue to have a sort of connection whenever they cross paths until her demise the next season, and he still holds a respect for her years later, continuing to use her nickname for him “Clarence” as an alias at various times. 

When Castiel becomes human in S9, he’s a bit lost and overwhelmed. April takes him in for the night. Although this is a short-lived romance considering she tortures and kills him the next day, for a brief enough time Cas starts to become acquainted with human romance and sexual desire. He loses his virginity to her. It is estimated by some that this is merely sexual experimentation on the part of a very confused newly human Cas, and others have used this to say that Cas is not gay but pan or bi. The conclusion in any regard, in my opinion, is purely up to the viewer. 

If I’m to offer my opinion, however, seeing as he has shown interest in both sexes, though remains unlabeled, I consider him simply an unlabeled queer person. Sexual identity and orientation has never seemed to matter much to Castiel, so I don’t see why it should matter to me. He loves who he loves, simple as that. 

When we get to Hannah, she provides an interesting foil to Castiel for a time, and an emphasizing expression on just how much he’s changed since his introduction to Earth and the Winchesters. Where Castiel has been open to a plethora of new emotions and experiences through the years which have made him a bit more human than angel at times, Hannah is still new to humanity and the range and movement of emotions that come with it. Just how little she seems to understand proves how much Castiel has grown and does understand by comparison. 

As such, he seems to pick up on the fact that Hannah has an attachment to him that appears to be forming into a romantic or sexual interest. He gently turns her down multiple times, not expressing interest in her behavior although he does respect her greatly as a person. Though this relationship isn’t considered romantic from Castiel’s perspective, its unrequited nature again is a good parallel to Dean and Crowley’s relationship at this same time. Angel x Angel and Demon x Demon. Both one sided.

Now, let’s get back to Dean. 

Up to the point that Castiel turns human, for however brief a time, he finally gets a look behind the curtain of human emotion. Now, we all know that Cas is in love with Dean already here- and probably has been for some time. Years, even- but it’s my personal belief that during this time turning human is when he actually realizes it and understands where these emotions come from.

Maybe it’s the heartbreak of Dean kicking him from the bunker, maybe it’s seeing Dean again when he shows up in line at the Gas n Sip, or maybe it’s somewhere in between when he sees two people on the street looking at each other and realizes “oh, that’s love. I know what that is. I felt that, too.” And every moment from then on he realizes what that feeling was in his chest when he looked at Dean for a little too long, or why it hurt so much to see the pain in Dean’s eyes at something Cas had done, or why hearing Dean’s prayers to him just felt different than they did with Sam’s. Why everything that he’d done since he rebelled from heaven was in the name of doing the right thing, muddled alongside doing the right thing for Dean. Caring because of Dean. Caring for Dean.

It’s during this time when he realizes what these feelings are, that he also must come to terms with the fact that they’re unreciprocated (or as he believes, anyway). This is for two reasons. The first, he still believes at this time that Dean kicked him from the bunker just because. And the second, if there’s anything that Cas took to heart from Dean’s example as strongly as the concept of free-will, it’s self-loathing. He doesn’t see himself worthy of love. Dean doesn’t see himself worthy of love either. They’re both messy piles of self-loathing that breeds into a blindness to the depth of care they hold for one another.   

Now that we’re on the topic of self-loathing, this leads into Castiel and his decision to become Lucifer’s vessel in season 11. Much like Dean, Cas has a consistent issue with seeing his own personal self-worth, so when the opportunity comes along to “be of service to the fight” and become Lucifer’s vessel, he takes it on easily. He considers himself expendable, and he won’t see just how much Dean struggles with this fact while he’s possessed. In fact, Cas never knows just how much Dean struggles with his absence at all, which is just one of the many divides between the two of them that could easily be resolved with communication, if either were ever good at that. 

Once Lucifer is shoved from Cas’ body, however, Dean makes a point to let Cas know just how important he is in his life. He’s said Cas was family before, but that was before the falling out at the end of season 6. Dean makes it clear that he and Sam both consider Cas family, once again, during a ride in Baby. “You’re our brother, Cas. I want you to know that.” 

Now, here, simultaneous heartbreak and love occur. Because while Cas is likely very much in love with Dean here, and very much aware of it, to hear that Dean simply thinks of him as a brother must ache a bit. However, we’re also talking about Dean Winchester, and for him to call someone a brother is an immense depth of love, probably the most the man is even capable of. Dean never says the words “I love you” to anyone, so this is about the closest anyone could get. Cas knows this, he’s well-versed in the ways of Dean Winchester by now. So, while it aches, his heart is also full. 

Comparable to:

“We need you, Cas. I need you.” 8x17

“We’re gonna shove your ass back through the eye of that needle if it kills all three of us.” 8x05

“Don’t make me lose you, too.” 7x23

“Don’t do anything stupid” 

The entire purgatory confession/apology prayer in 15x09

Cas returns this love just hours later, offering to go with Dean to die taking out Amara.

If we jump forward to the divorce arc of season 14-15, we can hit upon the next great heartbreak of Castiel’s sad little love life. While the Winchester brothers, Castiel, and Jack have all become a family unit, Castiel never wants to lose that. But two things happen. First, Cas’ deal with The Empty is made, and somewhere along the line, silently, he becomes aware that allowing himself to be happy, and that happiness, somehow involves Dean. The second thing that happens is Jack kills Mary Winchester, and Dean says Castiel is dead to him. 

So, The Empty won’t take him, but his family is broken apart. Castiel never gives up on a single family member, though. That’s the thing about Cas. The same way he consistently forgives Dean for all his behaviors over the years, he never loses faith in anyone in this family. And when they come to reunite, he’s happy simply in appreciating any and all time they have together, however brief.

Then, in true Castiel fashion, he sacrifices himself for Dean Winchester in 15x18. 

Their relationship has always left things unsaid, but I don’t think there’s ever been a question on whether Dean loves Cas or Cas loves Dean even if they don’t talk about it. You can’t look at Cas and Dean’s faces seeing each other again for the first time in weeks at the end of “The Last Call” and say that there wasn’t love and heartbreak there. On some level I think that Cas knew that Dean loved him back, but Dean was so buried in trauma at that point that it might take him years more to realize what he actually felt and what he needed. But Cas is such a selfless lover that he was absolutely 100% fine with just being around Dean for the rest of his life, even if he never got a chance to tell him how much he genuinely cared for him, and never got that reciprocation back. Castiel’s love for Dean is so pure and selfless it’s overwhelming to even consider, but for someone like Dean it would be a hundred times harder to accept or even fathom someone caring about him as much as Cas does. 

So Castiel never pushes Dean further, never suggests, barely even touches him. The only liberties Cas takes are small touches to heal him (even though he doesn’t need to touch a person to heal them), a few small hugs through the years, just sharing comfortable space inside the impala, small moments watching Dean’s favorite movies with him, or sharing a moment over beers in the kitchen. And Cas’ happiness was in telling Dean how much he loved him likely because then maybe Dean would actually see how much he was worth. Cas wanted Dean to know how much he loved him and how he viewed him, because Dean deserved to love himself and was worthy of it. 

The five types of love languages are as follows:

Words of affirmation

Physical touch

Gift giving

Acts of Service

Quality Time

One of the reasons Dean and Cas miss the mark with one another so often could simply come down to love languages. A lot of the time, what a person needs in love language is often what they also give. I don’t think this is the case where these two are concerned, though. They’re both so sacrificial that it’s difficult for them to accept this in return, even though this is what they each offer to the other and anyone else around them. 

Both Cas and Dean’s giving love language is “acts of service” which translates into sacrificial actions much of the time, though it can also be more domestic than that as well. It’s Dean grabbing an extra beer for Cas or making food, or it’s Cas healing Dean without any prompting, Cas loading up on pie and beer at the Gas n Sip when Dean’s mad at him. 

What they each need, however, is different. Dean needs “quality time.” He needs his people close, he needs them to answer calls, and he needs to know where they are. This clearly ties in to his abandonment issues, and it hurts his relationship with Cas significantly when the angel just keeps leaving, or disappears without answering his phone for days at a time. And when he dies, obviously. He always comes back, though. And half the time when he’s gone it’s because he’s trying to get a win for Dean against whatever issue the team is facing at the time. 

What Cas needs, best I can tell, is “words of affirmation.” Cas has a consistent problem with thinking that he’s worth less than he is, and is less important to the people around him than he is. Dean obviously has this issue, too, but with Cas it’s somehow infinitely worse, if that’s even possible. Frequently, what he needs to get him going in low points is a few words from Dean or encouragement in general. To name a few:

“Maybe to fix it.” 7x17

“I’d rather have you, cursed or not.” 7x23, Cas then goes with Dean to find and kill Dick Roman

“I’m not leaving here without you.” S8 in purgatory when Cas wanted Dean to leave him behind but Dean was having none of it.

“You’re our brother, Cas.” 11x23, after Cas was possessed by Lucifer and thought he was expendable. 

Over time, Dean does get a bit more vocal with Cas about issues he’s having or just with encouraging words as well. Cas, too, sticks around a lot more. They’re not perfect but they do begin to grow and work with one another in these later years to give one another what they need most to see how much the other is loved. 

In conclusion, there is a significant amount of romance and sexuality written into this show, and simply interpreted as well. And that’s the thing, when a queer person says that they interpreted a certain piece of media as queer, it’s not up to someone else to say that they can’t, or shouldn’t, or that they’re interpreting something wrong. That’s the thing about media, it can have so many different interpretations and meanings to so many different people. 

It’s my personal interpretation to see the queerness embedded in the text here. Maybe it’s not there for another person, and that’s cool too, just don’t tell me how I should see it. The fact is that it was written into the show to be interpreted, and interpret is what we did. 

I’d love to hear any feedback that others may have regarding this. Any other theories, different interpretations, things I may have missed. I hope you enjoy the edits, and the endings I put together for them. We all need a little bit of happiness after that ending, so I hope it leaves you with a lighter heart. :)

Much love,

Taylor

[zoufantastical]

What do you think of how much more bad ass they have made Sylvie over Loki in terms of action? (I'm not complaining big fan of it) Do you feel as if the show runner herself is giving Sylvie as much screen time and moments that often eclipse Loki bc she may be a character who's main purpose was to uplift and expand Loki's character, and that was her only original purpose? As if maybe she wasn't intended to last in the Marvel universe, at least in this incarnation? Seeing how most of this show is ran by the point of view of some women, that what we have with Sylvie is what we get bc of this reason? Do u feel it would have been different had it been otherwise? Or do you feel differently then my observation? Would love any point of view.

Why First Impressions Matter

Let me just say I was ecstatic over this ask. Finally something different (not that I don’t enjoy the previous asks) that forces me to talk about something that has been lingering in the back of my mind since the show started.

If you guys could be patient with me, I would appreciate it. I’m going to deviate a lil bit and talk about a point that relates to this ask and basically explains this user’s concern.

So, my mother says that she gives a show around ten minutes or so to grab her interest. At first I thought it was a bit ridiculous, since that means she’s missing out on a lot of great potentials because of this rule. I respected her opinion of course. Now, ever since the Loki show started though, I understand why she believes in it.

Marvel is very lucky they have loyal fans like us who will eat up whatever they spoon fed us. Even amongst heavy criticism. Despite people hating on the character Loki in his show by calling him “Larry” , the writers “clowns” or calling him OOC and a sidekick on his own show (please if you have the time, read the short post I linked), I finally understand their sentiment, which in a way is misplaced because of what I’m going to mention:

The first ten minutes of the first episode of Loki could should have been better.

What do I mean by this? Two things actually.

Imagine that you are a new MCU fan and you want to catch up on the movies or someone wanting to binge watch the entire saga again. You finish the first avengers movie but you decide to deviate and watch Loki, which is based on 2012 Avengers Loki. What’s one thing that’s going to throw them off immediately? Guess.

If you did congrats.

It’s the hair.

As a loyal fan, this will ALWAYS confuse me. There’s also the fact that they shot new scenes with the overly long spiky ends wig. So…why the sudden change in appearance? I started headcanoning that traveling through space and dimensions fucks up your evil blowout just for my sanity.

Already we are on the wrong path.

Now you may think this is minor and shouldn’t matter but appearances DO matter and sometimes we don’t pick up on inconsistencies right away, however, they do stay in our minds and form this domino effect later on which is what is happening with a lot of displeased fans.

The second is this joke of a scene.

If there was any time that Loki needed to display some of his abilities we were introduced at the end of episode two and throughout episode three, this would have been the perfect moment. Loki may be cocky, petty and boastful, but he is not stupid.

He just barely escaped with the tesseract. He would not approach ignorantly and all cocky mighty, a group of people who seem to look very dangerous. This is 2012 Loki. You know the dangerous god that a group of talented individuals joined forces to stop because it would have been the end of their world as they know it? A Loki who will be on high alert because not only will SHIELD and the Avengers be looking for him but eventually the Other and Thanos as well.

What I would have done to rewrite the strength and seriousness of the TVA without outright humiliating Loki in the process, this scene instead should have been a fight scene. Loki would have been full of adrenaline, displaying all his feats only to be caught off guard by B-15 and THEN you could make this infamous scene.

We already know that the TVA agents are trash fighters and easily beaten grunts based on later scenes. A scene like what I recommended would have prepared us for that. Otherwise now we are calling the rest of the fight scenes in this show also inconsistent with what we were presented in their first appearance.

Another rewrite I would have done is NOT start off the show using the Endgame Loki escaping scene. A great majority of people watching the show are because they already KNOW this Loki escaped with the space stone. Starting off with a recap, a recap all the way to the elevator scene no less, is not only way too long but unnecessary.

To peek the audiences’ interest, one should have started with a short scene of TVA hunting The hooded mysterious Variant and the latter killing them. It could be anywhere in time. Not only would that peek ones interest and wonder who this figure is, they’ll assume they are trouble and that they might cause an issue with Loki if they were to cross each other’s path etc basically you’ll have the audience’s mind scrambled and excited. THEN after the marvel logo you can put the recap scene.

[If you made it this far, congrats, because I’m finally going to start answering this user’s question]

What do you think of how much more bad ass they made Sylvie over Loki in terms of action?

And this is why I made a big deal of explaining what I’ve said above. Is not that Sylvie is more badass. In fact, Sylvie should have more scenes than the ones we are given. It’s the fact that the Loki actions scenes started off misplaced and were not started strong enough to make an impactful expression. It’s why they are calling him all sorts of things like weak, clown, OOC, stupid, inconsistent etc even though later on he is shown to be intelligent and strong.

Unfortunately (but not surprisingly) Sylvie’s character has been bound by her male counterpart’s. The majority of her scenes are with Loki, whether they were fighting or developing her character. This…is not the best writing choice but given this is only 6 episodes and time is short, they are pitting these two together as early as episode two in order to establish their partnership/relationship.

This choice sacrifices character screen time so the plot can move forward. Sylvie so far has only three meaningful scenes ever since being introduced (without Loki) and personally I feel that’s not enough.

Being paired with Loki 95% of the time is why you and many believe that she is taking Loki’s shine. We hadn’t had time, as a viewer, to fully appreciate Sylvie despite her not wanting to be called or relate to the name Loki. We haven’t had time to BREATHE and actually enjoy this new character especially since the majority of her scenes she is bounded by the hip to Loki! You are also right to believe that her character seem to have been created to “uplift and expand” Loki’s character-because SHE IS! And the latest episode basically confirms that!

I wouldn’t be surprised if Sylvie is a character exclusively used for the Loki show. So far there are no plans of using her beyond the series. Which is unfortunate because it means that even with female writers behind the script, decisions were made and accepted to have the Sylvie character move and react to the plot along side a male character. It’s fine for that to happen but when it’s the majority of their screen time, then it’s an issue. So your observation is correct.

Don’t get me wrong, I have been enjoying the show so far. Not loving it but it’s been entertaining despite some of it’s…creative choices. One thing that has been in common so far in MCU series is that they aim too high with a big budget only for them to not put the same time and care on a story they want to tell.

It really is unfortunate because there are moments in the show that has been done great! But again many choices has to do with the fact that Marvel and Disney are obsessed with keeping up this schedule and milking a show as much as they can. Because that’s their brand.

I can’t tell you additionally what I would have done differently. I guess we would have to wait till the Finale for me to properly answer that question.

[askfallenroyalty]

I don't think you did anything wrong. When a story is being written, there are a lot of different ways to adress and express something and maybe that's why you're being misunderstood. I think there are just too many things to adress in this story that maybe some people will get when these things are implicitly implied and some people will not. So when a breaking point comes, they'd think it came out of nowhere. You can see this with the amount of asks you receive asking you often the same thing.

Does that mean it's wrong? Ofc not! I myself was a little bit confused with Frisk's reactions and conduct in general until you explained it in your recent asks, and I thought man, that was what I was missing!

Now, yes I believe some parts of the story could have been explained in a different way, because in my opinion there's a lot to read between the lines. If you don't try to understand the characters, you'll clearly be confused as hell. But that's why I love this story! As you said before, there's nothing meant to be black/white coded, and I really appreciate the world and the character's complexity in general. You don't have some of the answers in hand, an that's when you have to analize! (At least that's what I do haha)

I also really felt like telling you something I've been relating to, so I'm putting the respectives tw if someone doesn't want to keep reading (TW: Suicide mention).

In the DW Arc, when the Christmas and Feylow stuff happened, I realised through Chara that I was doing the exact same thing with a friend of mine. He was going through a lot of stuff, and tried to commit suicide multiple times. I was focusing a huge amount of energy on him because I was afraid to lose him, and when he suddenly stopped talking to me so he could take a break, I felt really lost. Because he was the person I talked with the most, one of my dearest friends, and the idea of losing him and not being there to stop it made me insanely anxious, because that used to be the situation most of the times. Now it's been a year since he's stopped talking to me, and I don't exactly know the reason. But I couldn't keep running behind someone who didn't seem to keep wanting me around. And if it wasn't for you, I couldn't have realized how much this was hurting me.

And now, as much as it hurts me to see him acting this distant and cold with me, I'm okay with it. I really am. Because I now have the tranquility to see him continue, even when things are not okay. I can't force a friendship and I really needed to understand that back then. I trust him as much as he trusts me.

I really wanted to thank you for writing this story because it has helped me in a way I didn't expect, and I'm sure it will help a lot of people too! I'm even learning from your way of taking and discussing things haha.

I just wanted you to have this tranquility I have with this story because I trust it'll work out and explain itself once it's finished. And I just can't express how thankful I am to be reading your story.

Thank you again,

I'm looking forward to more of your work and please, take care! Don't stop doing what you enjoy! 🦋

putting it under a readmore because of how long the ask/response is, sorry!

i’m at a loss of words because wow, this ask really hit in a way i’ve never really could of anticipated. when writing AFR, i write a story about things I felt. I’ve been Chara, I’ve been Asriel and Frisk at points in my life. I write because I need to tell their stories and make it real, specifically for my own sake of getting through my own pain and to tell the world this is who i am and that I will be ok, there is hope in this world. It’s a selfish desire for me, but ultimately that’s what art is i feel. I couldn’t draw this much and put so much time and effort into something without it being meaningful or personal.

but art is communication, and when I write to be seen and to be heard, I know there’s others who are reading and are connecting with the work. (otherwise, I wouldn’t be getting asks right? its a lonely process, i forget there’s the second half of the equation -you guys) and i’ll do my best to make sure people are accommodated and can experience this story without hurting in a way that’s past enjoying a emotionally gripping piece of media. i don’t want people to be upset or hurt for my work, and I want to ensure I can make this without hurting others.

I try to leave a lot of ambiguity and room for people to interpret stories and I don’t mind people missing the point or interpreting things vastly differently than what I intended. that’s fine, that’s what art is all about. i don’t want to hold people’s hands and tell them what’s happening or what they should feel -i want them to choose and decipher and think things over. stories should be stimulating and thought provoking, and i can’t decide what those thoughts are. I wouldn’t want to. Personally, if it means people become more confused and lost over the story -well, that’s a trade off I have to take. if it means the story is more up-to-interpretation, than it’s worth it to me.

i do regret with how fast and punchy the arc ended up, and I feel my hints may have been too weak. asriel/flowey has been bluntly surprised/asking to be killed twice, he hasn’t felt like himself since dying and has lost his support systems ect. as a person who’s Been Through Shit, I thought it was as obvious as the sun what was to come but thinking on it now?

with how distance asriel is, how limited the perspective is to chara (who hasn’t known Asriel has been going thru the same depressive/suicidal thoughts as they have this whole time) it was a shock to the system. and in a way that’s fine in my eyes if the reader was completely shocked as you can emphasize more with chara that way... but in the same sense its horrifying for them, it must be for the reader as well.

and I do feel I should of thought of a way to handle the scenario to where it was less in your-face with Asriel’s decent into desperation and attempts. I don’t want to ever show it on screen, I don’t want to ever go into detail and make it any sort of fun for the viewer. it’s supposed to be disturbing and painful and I tried to show how greatly painful it was affecting both chara and frisk. Suicide victims are victims and everyone involved suffer from it. It’s ugly and never something one should be anything but ugly.

that is my intent for it be that, but as I’ve heard from people it’s still a shock and went too far. Authorial intent doesn’t matter when people react to your stories. yes, the context can be good to have, but people’s feelings and reactions mean the world more. I hope with the added context of the complete story that helps it in the long run, but as it is I’m very unhappy with how I tackled it and I don’t really have a good answer to how I should of gone about it. but at the end of the day that doesn’t matter as it happened and I can’t change it.

i’m sorry about your friend and i’m sorry for the pain you’ve experienced as well. it’s not easy being in that position (nor is it for ur friend as well of course) and it’s perfectly fine to feel hurt and to take time for yourself to address those feelings. You, as a person, matter and your feelings are justifiably important as well. nobody asks to be mentally ill and your friend’s choices aren’t fully theirs because of that, but it doesn’t change how it’s affected and hurt you. Losing someone’s friendship has always been a painful and inevitable experience people must go thru in life. I’m sorry that you’ve gone through that, but I’m glad -so happy that my story has helped you in any amount. I sincerely wish you both the best and to heal, I’m proud of you anon for getting through this.

I can’t really express how much it means as a writer to see how my work helped you. Like I mentioned before, I write and feel like it’s by myself that makes this work but it’s a 2 way street -you guys contribute to the story and the story only exists and is perceived by you. without an audience, it really truly is just me here. what you gain and experience within a story is just as important as the writing of the work itself and I often forget that.

Thank you. This was a really nice and eye opening ask and it’s going to be on my mind for a while, haha. I hope once the story is done and I can post-correct how I handle the story, people can learn and gain meaning to it like you have. Sorry if this was a bit rambly, I’m very thankful for your response (as well as everyone else who’s messaged!) and I’m very happy and excited to continue and to do my best. Thank you all so much.