#pagan discourse

[cultkinkcoven]

I get the thing of wanting to be as harmless and uncontroversial as possible in your craft. I understand white witches trying their best not to encroach on closed practices or cultural appropriation. I understand wanting to cancel problematic occultists and generally push the witchy community away from its history with white supremacy and racism. I get it, I really do.

and I say this with love and try to come across as gently as possible.

Some of you, though your intentions may be pure, don’t seem to recognize the difference between genuine caution and concern and blatant white saviourtism. I promise you that people of color don’t need white witches to speak for them. I promise you that it is not your responsibility to be the saviour that enforces what is and isn’t problematic, especially when you yourself are so clueless about the issue at hand.

People who don’t know even the first thing about Judaism shouldn’t be trying to herd all of their white friends away from Lilith or dictate why you shouldn’t use magick with a k. It’s frustrating because the original message gets completely lost every single time.

Jew witches will say “hey guys maybe don’t work with Lilith if you don’t understand her origins because she’s not just a girl boss mother of demons but also has a lot of history in our culture as an extremely violent and chaotic energy that actively victimizes women and children”

But all that tumblr heard was “Lilith is associated with Judaism and that means she’s a religious figure and can’t be worked with by non-jews” without having even the slightest clue what her role in Judaism was and why people advise caution. Saying that Lilith is a religious figure to Judaism tells me that you’ve never even met a Jewish person in real life.

People will say “hey Crowley was actually a piece of shit and shouldn’t be idolized as a wise practitioner when he was literally just an extremely racist heroine addict who tricked a lot of women into having sex with him for rituals”

But all that tumblr hears is “Crowley bad. Anything associated with Crowley also bad. If you do anything that was associated with Crowley you are also bad.”

Indigenous witches will say “Hey white sage is an extremely sacred herb that is being heinously over harvested by corporations selling the witchcraft equivalent of fast fashion and it’s causing severe harm to indigenous businesses and communities, please stop supporting them”

but all that tumblr heard was “White sage shouldn’t be harvested. If you get white sage from anywhere, even indigenous people themselves, you are racist.”

and in retaliation to that super hard stance you have witches who have decided they don’t care about respecting closed practices in general and purposely buy from non indigenous sources out of spite

“I don’t know enough about this topic to have an intelligent stance on it” is ALSO a perfectly acceptable position. You don’t have to be opinionated about things you don’t understand. You’re more than welcome to just avoid the things you know would make you uncomfortable to participate in without pushing blatant misinformation.

Most occult spaces have some sort of historical tie to icky stuff like racism, misogyny, ablism, etc. You’re not a bad person for recognizing that and wanting to stay away from them. I’m happy you care.

But you are not an authority on things you’re uneducated about. When you pretend to be you only muddy the words of the people you’re supposed to be helping.

Saying shit like “using magick with a k is just as antisemitic as using a swastika” completely waters down what real antisemitism is, and makes the matter less serious than it actually is.

Saying “working with Lilith is just as antisemitic as working with the Tetragrammaton” is just a complete slap in the face to practicing jews, and you don’t know why because you don’t understand Judaism or the people who created it. You can’t understand it because you’re so busy talking over them that you never took the opportunity to listen.

Before you make the decision to run these mass cancelation events, take a second to consider if you’re doing this because it’s actually important and something you truly understand, or if you’re just doing so to feel morally pure and accepted by your fellow politically correct white peers.

[actiwitch]

Probably will get shit for this, but I am SO tired of seeing God spousing shit everywhere.

I mean no hate towards the act of actual God spousing!!! but the way the internet (particularly tiktok) has created and popularized it into something that is almost entirely people intentionally attention seeking and/or in some degree of delusion is worrying and disrespectful.

Apollo is not your baby girl. Loki is not your boyf who loves watching horror movies with you. They are not your husband. They are not uwu making you blush and giggle and kick your feet. They are not sliding a hand down your pants and making you c>m. You are not pregnant with their astral children. And no, most people are not god spoused.

The problem is not that it's a different path than me. I don't care about that. I love different paths, even the "cringe" ones like pop culture worship and digital magic and etc etc. And even things I dislike/do cringe a bit at such as "left hand path" or "dark witchcraft" or "black magic witch" are not a problem! Just because something isn't for me (or someone else) doesn't make it dangerous or problematic.

My problem is (varying degrees of) spiritual delusion and psychosis, appropriation and misrepresentation of actual practices, and disrespect towards deities and paganism as a whole. Which is most of what I see in online god spousing spaces. (And unfortunately often in online pagan + witch communities as a whole, which I've discussed before.)

Please. You are 16 (often.) Delete those Tumblr posts and Tiktoks. Just move on. Learning and growing is normal and good! We have all been through phases or beleifs we cringe at and leave in the past. You have no reason to cling to bs. Stop the disrespect (to both the Gods and your own mind), and make something legitimately beautiful for yourself in your practice. Learning and growing is normal and good!!!

[imheredisappointingmyparents]

I may get hate for this but I want to know, how godspousing is not hubris? Where is the thin line?

Like you are telling me you saying you are dating a deity is not hubris? Is a humble thing that is totally normal for a mortal?

Or is it [look at the edit note] and you are claiming that most married deities would choose you while they have a deity spouse??

I mean it does depend whether it is normal or not. But like seriously?? Turning sexualising Lucifer, Loki and, with all respect, who knows who else, into a quirky trend? Please.

Edited: One of the replies called me slightly ableist so I'd like to elaborate what I mean. First of all, I'm not native in English (as you can see by my name) and this is the closest to the word I was trying to say. I apologize.

Second of all. It looks like taking your complexes (insecurities?) and trying to hide them by saying you are married to a deity.

Third of all. I guess it is ok to do such a thing if you have some big social anxiety or something but there was this one dude who said rejected Persephone three times, which is hubris (I know, shocking /s).

[sigynsilica]

Friendly reminder that if you believe there is only one right thing to believe in regards to faith and religion, and all the other beliefs are stupid, ill-informed, cults, immature, etc., you are operating under evangelical rhetoric.

This goes for anti-theists, exvangelicals who are trying to "rescue" others from the church, actual Christian Evangelicals, or anyone else who is actively trying to get other people to align their beliefs with their own.

So remember, kids. It's not okay to tell other people what to and what not to believe. Just because you don't find value in religion, or were harmed by religion, doesn't mean others don't or weren't. Your experiences are not universal.

[tyetknot]

*carefully tosses a golden apple labelled 'TO THE LEAST PROBLEMATIC' into the middle of witchblr discourse*

[jezzzebel]

,,Nooo you don't get it!!! This person greatly contributed to occultism and witchcraft! So he should be respected. He did many great things!"

And the "great things" that person has done are cultural appropriation, misogyny and racism.

[actiwitch]

that section on god spousing is so >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

2, 15, 18, 19 for the pagan ask

lmao another pretty long one. keep reading if you dare.

2. What draws you to your Gods? What do you like about them?

i like that they're good and true and powerful and inspiring. they embody virtues and qualities that we, as mortals, aspire to emulate. zeus and his justice, athena and her wisdom, dionysus and his vitality, etc. also, they offer us ample opportunity to celebrate. the festivals, rituals and offerings allow us, through joy and sacrifice and meditation, to stop a moment and really appreciate this gift of life. the gods embody the essence of nature and through them we are able to connect ourselves to a larger cosmic order and recognize the divinity inherent in every aspect of life. i can keep going but you get the picture.

15. Are you faithful to one specific pantheon or is your belief more eclectic?

i consider myself to be a sort of perennialist with special emphasis on indo-european pantheons. i view all indo-european pantheons as different expressions of the same fundamental metaphysical principles, as they all come from the same source. of all the pantheons in the world i think they come closest to approximating some kind of "truth" about the world. so i'm "receptive" to all indo-european pantheons, a sort of indo-european syncretism.

with that said, i do tend to primarily focus on germanic, greco-roman, and vedic pantheons. but that's mostly because that's where the bulk of our information about prechristian indo-european paganism comes from. (and also i am, genetically, mostly germanic and my country is, spiritually, connected to greco-roman civilization.)

which god and from which pantheon i invoke and/or venerate in a given moment is pretty ad hoc. sometimes it's jupiter, sometimes it's zeus, sometimes it's indra or odin or woden or taranis. it depends on what feels right in a given moment. if i'm out in the woods doing something with my asatru buddies and i'm surrounded by runes or something then i'll probably emphasize the norse pantheon.

so yeah, i'm pretty "eclectic" and syncretic but within the bounds of indo-european paganisms. but i don't really think of it as particularly eclectic since i consider them all to be expressions of the same principles. but i get that it probably appears pretty eclectic compared to people who are devoted to a single pantheon. but i have my opinions about what it even means to have a single pantheon. historically, pantheons can be pretty expansive and syncretic. but everyone draws a line somewhere.

18. What are your thoughts on godspousing?

oh god. the way i typically see it expressed? it's really really really fucking cringe. probably one of the cringiest parts of neopaganism. it's so bad. i have seen so many women who claim to be married loki and they treat it like a real romantic/sexual relationship where they have sex and go on dates and stuff. it's fucked. lmao. i hate it so much. it always reads like a mentally ill, horny, lonely woman who conjures up an imaginary friend to cope and to feel like the main character.

however! i have seen /some/ people on very rare occasions where people treat it with more respect. kinda like christian nuns. women who devote themselves to a /spiritual/ marriage to a god. i don't know of any historical examples of such a thing but i think it's fair. like i said in another ask, i'm all in favor of creating new traditions. if someone feels so compelled to dedicate themselves to a god like that then so be it. i'm personally not a fan of celibacy but different strokes for different folks and all that. this is a very different thing from the type of "godspousing" i typically see though.

with all that being said i do want to make note that i /do/ believe experiencing the divine can definitely have an erotic/sexual component and i think sex has great magical/spiritual power. but i think there's a distinction between some erotic, orgasmic religious ecstasy versus a lonely, horny woman playing house with their imaginary friend.

19. How have your Gods affected your life?

in countless ways. literally. both in great ways and in small ways. they govern this world i live in and give it order and beauty and they bless me and my family with health and well-being. even before i was "officially" a pagan i believe they were always with me and subtly guiding and protecting me. they inspire me. like i mentioned earlier. but not just through embodying virtues that i admire. but also by filling my spirit with beauty and hope and wonder. they inspire ideas in me and this fire to create and achieve. and indeed, everything i ever create or everything i achieve is always, at least in part, in honor of them because i owe them literally everything. i like around and i'm just overwhelmed by all the ways in which they move through the world and my life and fill it with so much beauty and goodness. they are in all things. it's impossible for me to conceive of a way in which they haven't affected my life.

[snakeflower-cottage]

The Witch: The Title That Everyone Likes To Blindly Claim

The witch, in the historical and folkloric sense, is a creature of transgression. Neither fully human nor entirely spirit, the witch moves between worlds, crossing thresholds that society fears to breach. They are not healers, nor are they religious figureheads; they do not serve a village or uphold values. Instead, witches serve only the spirits that claim them, the untamed forces that whisper to them from liminal places, and their own desires, which shape the magic they wield. To be a witch is to succumb to the wild… To abandon the safety of the community and to step into the invisible, where power is raw, primal, and unbound by the morality of men.

A witch’s power is unlike that of cunning folk or learned magicians. It is not neatly categorized, nor is it always wielded with good intent. Witches skin-turn, slipping into the forms of animals and hags to move unseen or travel in spirit through the night air. They send forth their familiars to torment their enemies or spy on those who wronged them. They call storms, bring ruin to crops, and summon spirits from the grave. Their cauldrons do not only brew medicines but bubble with the fat of the dead, distilling poisons and potions of transformation or compulsion. A witch’s magic is one of consequence, they can heal as easily as they can harm, but they are not bound by obligation to do either.

The flexibility of morality is what sets the witch apart from the cunning folk or the magician. A witch acts not according to social duty or divine law but according to will, pact, and instinct. They curse those who offend them and bless those who please them, with no expectation of fairness or balance. They are feared because their magic follows no rule but their own. Even when a witch does good, it is usually on their terms, for their reasons, and often at a cost that others may fear to pay. The witch is not evil in the way holy rollers would claim, nor good in the way spiritualists might insist. They exist in the twilight between, belonging to neither world completely.

Witches stand against society not just in their actions but in their very being. Civilization depends on order, predictability, and the rejection of the wild. The witch, however, embraces that wilderness. Both in the natural world and within themselves. They make their home in the gnarled forests, the foggy moors, the forgotten ruins where spirits still linger. They are the things that villages fear at night, the figures seen on distant hills under moonlight, the ones who live beyond the hedgerows where human law falters. To become a witch is to surrender to the forces that society has deemed unclean, dangerous, or forbidden. It is to walk away from the pedestrian road and onto the crooked path, where forlorn gods and twisted spirits call home, where magic is not safe but is genuine and grounded in the reality of nature.

This is why the witch is so often painted as monstrous, because they remind humans of what lies beyond the boundaries of their fragile order. They are free, unpredictable, and chaotic. They are the ones who refuse to be tamed, who reject the rules and instead forge pacts with beings wild and rejected by men. The witch does not seek to live in harmony with the world as it is but rather to reshape it, to command it, to exist on the edge of it, unrestrained.

A witch is not merely someone who practices magic. A witch is someone who has given themselves to the otherworld, who has stepped beyond the limits of what is acceptable and into a space where power is real, morality is flexible, and the wild is not something to be feared… but embraced.

[whereserpentswalk]

Freindly reminder that idolater is a slur, as are variations permutations such as idolotry or idol worshipper. It's not some cute word to use agaisnt people you don't like. It's a slur. It's a slur with thousands of year agaisnt genocide behind it.

It's a slur that specifically to polytheists. It is part of the ideological basis of our religions being outlawed in countless countries. It's used against pagans, it's used agaisnt Satanists, it's used agaisnt Hindus, it's used agasint Buddhists, it's used agaisnt indigenous people's, it has been a part of the oppression that all of these groups have faced.

Sometimes monotheists use it agaisnt eachother. But it's in the same way faggot is sometimes used agaisnt straight people. It's essentially saying "Hey, you're like these people we both believe deserve to be oppressed." If you don't belive they deserve to be oppressed the insult doesn't work.

Never use idol worshiper, idolater, or any permutation as an insult, not agaisnt anyone, not even agaisnt people who you really hate. It's a slur and should never be treated as anything else. If you didn't know before you know now.

[khaire-traveler]

Since I haven't made an official post saying this (I don't think), I want to make it clear that I support godspousing.

People are allowed to have whatever kind of relationships with their deities that they want to have. It's not up to us, as outside observers, to dictate what people can and cannot do within their PERSONAL deity relationships.

Seriously, some of y'all need to, like, chill. Eat a Snickers. Drink some water. Stop worrying about what other people are doing within their PERSONAL practice.

[kareenvorbarra]

...I must confront Apollo with his wrongs. To force a girl Against her will and and afterward betray! To leave a child to die which has been born In secret! No! Do not act thus. But since You have the power, seek the virtuous path. All evil men are punished by the gods. How then can it be just for you to stand Accused of breaking laws you have yourselves Laid down for men? But if--here I suppose What could not be--you gave account on earth For wrongs which you have done to women, you, Apollo and Poseidon and Zeus who rules In heaven, payment of your penalties Would see your temples empty, since you are Unjust to others in pursuing pleasure Without forethought. And justice now demands That we should not speak ill of men if they But imitate what the gods approve, but those Who teach men their examples.

Ion (from Ion by Euripides, translated by R. F. Willetts)

[cultkinkcoven]

Why are you mimicking the evils of a white person by being so racist?

I’m going to answer this the same way I have answered similar questions.

If you believe my practicing demonolatry makes me racist or “mimics the evils of white people” then there really isn’t much I can do about that.

If you think that people who worship or work with demons are purposely trying to appropriate any given culture or religion just by the sheer act of working with a demon, then I am compelled to believe that you do not understand what Demonolatry is.

I am going to continue worshipping the spirits I have relationships with. Whether I call these ancient gods by Hebrew names or not, my practice is my own. If my practice bothers you, you are more than free to block me.

Worshipping Lucifer or any other spirit that has been demonized does not mean that I hold any discriminatory beliefs about Jewish people or seek to make a mockery of their religion or culture. Equally so, it does not mean I hate Christians, Muslims, or any other organized religions. It does not imply anything about my sentiments towards other minorities. Working with an Islamic demon doesn’t mean I hate muslims and seek to appropriate their culture.

I don’t mimic Jewish customs, I do not wear Jewish symbols. I do not say Jewish prayers. I occasionally work with an entity that Jewish people as well as other groups of people in the ancient middle east described as evil at one time. Using her hebrew name does not automatically mean I am appropriating the Jewish culture, no more than I would be appropriating Arabian culture by worshiping Iblis. Using her Hebrew name doesn’t mean that I feel any particular way about Jewish people. But if it makes Jewish people this uncomfortable to have demonolaters use these Hebrew names, then fine. I won’t use them. I’m most definitely still going to worship my deities, but I have no reason to call them by a Hebrew name.

Religious people are always going to disagree with demonolatry, regardless of what religion they come from. You can accuse me all day of offending Jewish people with my practice. Unfortunately that is the way that demonolatry has always been regarded. I offend all religious people with my practice.

But accusing me of being racist because I recognize a deity that happens to have a cultural name is just silly to me I’m sorry lol.

“You’re racist because you didn’t listen to Jewish people when they told you to stop worshiping demons.”

I didn’t listen to the Christians either if that makes you feel any better. “Pagans are racist because they are pagan” is the level we’ve gotten to.

“You recognize a deity that has an Arabic name, that must mean you hate all Muslims.”

Please don’t hurt your back. 💀

[incublud]

Long ass rant

SOME Hellenistic polytheists need to STOP brown-nosing other practices while contradicting their own rules 😭

I need to rant about something that's been getting on my nerves lately. It's when young hellpols (shortened word for hellenic polytheists) try to force their religious beliefs onto others and demonize Luciferian practices because they go against their beliefs. I don't mean any harm to hellpols, but I saw someone say that no religion or spiritual cult should offer blood because it's miasma. And I'm like, bro, not all religions think that way, OR EVEN BELIEVE IN SPIRITUAL DIRT. It's not just infernal entities that accept blood offerings, and it's stupid to hate on other practices just because they don't fit your beliefs. I had my doubts about this person, but I gave them a chance in this discussion. I shared my perspective as a Luciferian Pagan, explaining that blood is a key part of my practice, and their response was just ridiculous. They said that a bond with a god should be based on trust and respect, not blood offerings, and that other practices are dirty and wrong for it. It's unbelievably judgmental and narrow-minded, and it's not just about blood offerings.. It's just insane to impose their beliefs on others and label others practice as 'miasma.' It's beyond frustrating how some people within different pagan communities can be so stubborn and ignorant. They need to take a step back and reflect on the harm they cause by imposing their beliefs on others. Not only does their behavior mirror several religions many pagans left from, but they also have the audacity to dismiss the practices of several Luciferian Pagans because they are "wrong" and "spiritually dirty" is disgusting behaviour.

[lokavisi]

Ok, I think I have to open my mind up a little here and could use y'all's help.

I have expressed on here my dislike of Genevieve Gornichec's The Witch's Heart. I got to just about exactly halfway through (they had just come to take away the kids), and I was so frustrated with it that I couldn't bear to finish it. I know Loki is not the focus of the book, but her portrayal of him was so deeply antithetical to my understanding of him that I simply could not enjoy it. Not to say that fictional interpretations have to be 100% "true" to who they are, especially since a lot of people writing these fictions aren't practicing Heathens/Norse Pagans, for me to be able to enjoy them. But this was so far off that I couldn't set it aside and enjoy the story.

I wanted (still want, really) so desperately to enjoy this thing that so many people seem to enjoy. I deeply appreciate the author choosing Angrboða as the lead and giving her more attention. She absolutely deserves it. I would truly love to see more of that. I just couldn't get past my anger at someone, once again, making Loki out to be some cheating, neglectful bastard that doesn't care about his kids. I'm beyond over that trope for him. Gonna need some more creativity from storytellers on that front.

So anyway....because I want to better understand people's feelings about it and form a more fully informed opinion about the book, what is the back half of it like? I don't mind it being spoiled at all (though I guess PM if you're going to do that for the sake of others. To be frank, knowing what actually happens might be the only way I consider picking it up again.) Tell me what about the resolution of the story that resonates with you and why. Do you share my feelings about Loki's portrayal but were able to get past them/does it get better? I don't want to keep saying I hate this book based solely on the first half, but depending on where it goes, I don't know that I really want to take the time to continue reading it, either.

I know this is a Hot Take™️ opinion. I am not trying to hate on anyone who enjoys this book. I appreciate good faith responses and keeping this discussion civil even when we disagree. (It's ok if we do.) I seriously appreciate any feedback. ❤️

[jezzzebel]

Can I... Can i just post this and log out for the night...

[honeybadger-the-pop-witch]

Something I’ve Been Thinking About in Terms of Arthurian Paganism:

And it deals with Lancelot Du Lac.

Something I find super interesting as I interact with Arthuriana on Tumblr and read/listen to books about King Arthur is how I view Lancelot Du Lac in the greater context of my paganism journey with this pantheon.

I’ll admit that Lancelot is not my favorite knight as a character, and I have not reached out to him as a deity, but Lancelot du Lac as a literary device is fascinating—and has somewhat shaped one of my domains for him.

Lancelot du Lac is a literary device used to explain the cultural trends from the moment he was inserted into canon and onwards. First when Courtly Love became a main trope in literature, Lancelot du Lac represented everything a Courtly Love should be. He did everything for Guinevere and Guinevere, to the best of her station in society, did everything for Lancelot—but they could never be as Guinevere was married to another. Lancelot was used as a vehicle to discuss what intrigued people so much about Courtly Love as well as giving women in loveless marriages a means to escape and think of world where they could be with who they loved.

Then when Courtly Love became a “no no” as shifting cultural values and norms enforced the idea that adultery in any situation was wrong, Lancelot became the vehicle to tell that story in the Post-Vulgate. The reason why Galahad exists to an extent, and, in this telling, the Battle of Camlan, is to show just how much this grievous sin could bring about the damnation of all people’s lives around you. Galahad even warns his father Lancelot to not fall back into his old ways with Guinevere when he returned to Camelot, and, after everything was said and done, the two people who committed the sin of adultery could never be together again—not even in death.

And then everything changed again, and now shipping wars are a more common cultural phenomenon. So the Lancelot/Guinevere/Arthur love triangle became the Arthuriana version of Team Edward VS. Team Jacob. You wrote your retelling picking an end game for Guinevere and Sir Lancelot became the literary vehicle to discuss complicated relationships in a new YA format.

And finally, with it being more accepted to write books about queer experiences, Lancelot now becomes a vehicle for that discussion in a literary lens—as seen in tumblr discourse and retellings where Gawain was in love with Lancelot and vice versa. Or painting Lancelot/Guinevere/Arthur as a polycule. Or a thousand other different things.

So what does this mean for my pagan path?

Well, Lancelot du Lac’s main domain as of right now are the arts and literature. The humanities, mainly.

We see Lancelot du Lac as one of the best ways to tell a story—his entire character inspires discussion, histories, and retellings. And I believe his domain should reflect that. Lancelot du Lac is one of the best literary mirrors I can think of, so I hope this does him some justice.