#proship anti tw

[pawberri]

The key problem with "proship vs anti" discourse is that the most extreme versions of each side, the ones who actually bother to identify with these labels, accepted each others worst takes as arguments they had to debate. "Fiction =/= reality" is, in practice, an absurdly reductionist, anti-intellectual, thought-terminating-cliche that dictates we can learn nothing about a person via art and that their fiction reflects no political or moral messaging worthy of critique. In response to this, the "puriteens" who are too young to possibly hope to articulate their discomfort, to untangle their position from what is often real trauma experienced online, simply argue "yes, fiction influences and reflects reality in a 1 to 1 capacity." They, and people who want to use the groundwork they laid to make bad-faith callouts, make bad arguments about how the action of engaging in problematic fiction is on equal ground to real life abuse, or is a clear indicator of interest in real life abuse. Both of these arguments are terrible, but each side seems to radicalize the other further and further into their own brands of anti-intellectual reactionary belief. "Proshippers" become libertarian absolutists about free speech and view all transgression as righteous and alternative and therefore leftist. They gain a reactionary nostalgia for the past, desiring a time when people didn't seem to care about the implications of art. "Antis" become authoritarian and hypervigilant for signs of moral decay, at their worst, willing to align themselves with government bodies that offer carceral solutions to the debate. They are willing to use harassment as a tool of punishment, which then leads to false accusations and a fear of openness that puts people at risk of being triggered via obfuscation. (That said, proshippers also take part in plenty of harassment.)

I will say that I believe both of these movements are equally sensitive to co-opting by right-wing forces. We see the authoritarian tendencies of anti culture in harassment campaigns and even the way Republican law makers co-opt "grooming." The proship/fic crowd has such extreme nostalgia for the past that I often see people align themselves with the cultures of 4chan or other happily right-wing websites. They so heavily reject the idea that a drawn sexual depiction of a child could reflect any desire that they are disinterested in analyzing what the motivation behind the depiction is. i.e If we track the history of lolicon in Japan we do find that is, yes, countercultural, but that counter culture is right wing, very misogynistic, and defensive of patriarchial Japanese culture as it is and was including its culture around rape and abuse. Plenty of fictional content works as radicalization material, and radicalization material needs to be ambiguous. There is a valid reason to be hesitant to trust people who consume this content, even if I do not believe most of them will ever be dangerous towards children. The mere presence of sexuality is not enough to make a movement left wing. This kind of thing can again be seen in right-wing libertarian movements in the US. (And even leftist movements can be bigoted and even "pro-pedophilia" or otherwise disinterested in social reform around abuse.)

Is all content with elements of age-play this way? No. But to me, that is why kink media deserves to be treated as art and analyzed, critiqued, treated seriously. It doesn't have to do anything to anyone to be worthy of a moral critique. Said moral critique just doesn't warrant harassment and cruelty and reactionary exaggerations of the person consuming said content.

Anyway, what's my point in saying all this? I don't know. I'm just begging you to tag your God damn content with specific tags instead of random and nebulous shit like "dead dove" or "dark content", and also begging you to stop harassing people who do tag their content so I don't have to guess what "dead dove" and "dark content" mean. No one will erase incest kink fics or people who feel sickened by the idea of them off this earth because we aren't god, but we could at least all be responsible about tagging, flagging, and age-gating our stuff.

[crimson-rain-smoked-flower]

I’m not trying to attack you, but do you know that proshipper means someone who supports and romanticizes pedophilia, incest, and abuse? Your reblog on that post seems to read that you think antis just hate on people for having ships they don’t like. But it’s completely different than that. Just looking on the proshipper side of Tumblr and the internet and you can see people happily shipping children and adults and making nsfw content of such things.

i appreciate that you're not being outright hostile, but i have to say, that on its own put you above basically every anti i've interacted with.

i understand where antis are coming from, i really do. there are a lot of things on the internet that make me deeply uncomfortable, including the minor/adult ships that you mention. i don't want to anything to do with those kinds of ships and i would be happiest if i never saw them again. which is why i'm proship.

nine times out of ten, if i see that kind of ship brought up on my dash, it's because i was following an anti without realizing it, and they brought it up unprompted and untagged, to talk about how bad it is that they exist. they are the ones putting that kind of content in front of my face and making it harder to avoid.

the thing about people who ship those ships is that they're generally very aware that not everyone wants to see that kind of content, and so they tag it. they make sideblogs to talk about it. they don't go out of their way to shove it in people's faces. that means i, and everyone else who doesn't like it, can avoid it.

what antis want is for it to not exist at all. they want the tags to be purged and blocked, and for anyone who uses those tags to have their accounts deleted. and sure, that might get rid of some of it, but do you know what would happen to the rest? it would stop being tagged. people who don't want to see it wouldn't have the tools to avoid it. this isn't just a hypothetical, that's what's happened any time a fan space has tried to do that.

that's not even getting into the rabbit hole of what should be banned and what shouldn't. obviously any content that depicts real children or real life abuse shouldn't exist and shouldn't be allowed to be posted, but basically any platform that people use already enforces those policies, and there's not much of a slippery slope to go down there. if it involves real living breathing people being abused, it's bad. end of discussion.

but the same can't be said for fiction. ask ten antis for a specific list of all the content that should be banned, and you'll get ten different answers. what about kink? what about roleplay? what about horror and murder and anything that involves fictional characters being graphically tortured? what about people using art to process terrible things that have happened to them? what about art that uses dark themes as a horror element? if you just want to ban anything questionable to anyone, that's the line of thinking that gets any mention of lgbt existence banned. and again, this isn't just a hypothetical, this has happened before, and that's generally where it leads.

i know, from personal experience, that antis do, in fact, send harassment to people just for shipping things they don't like. i've gotten accused of absolutely vile shit for shipping two fictional characters who were both consenting adults. i've seen ship wars turn into moral battlegrounds, over ships that an average person wouldn't bat an eye at.

the thing about "romanticization" is a whole other can of worms. the anti logic goes like this: if someone sees something (even if it's very obviously fictional) in a positive light enough times, they will start thinking it's okay in real life, and go on to hurt real people. the problem with that is that it's just. blatantly untrue.

if it were true every horror movie fan would be a serial killer, every person that studies dark media would be an unhinged psychopath, and everyone who is into ddlg would be a pedophile. but they're not. they just aren't. people have directed movies just as fucked up as the darkest shit on ao3, and are still capable of being normal human beings who know right from wrong in real life.

even if someone is that impressionable, scrubbing away the existence of every piece of questionable content isn't going to solve their problem, because they're still going to be vulnerable to con men, scams, and cultists. the only thing that would actually materially help someone like that is developing their own morals and critical thinking.

children are also more impressionable, and there's a lot of content that's not suitable for them, but that doesn't mean that content shouldn't exist. it just means that they should stick to spaces designed for them (which most social media sites, tumblr included, are not) or, if they're old enough to be responsible for their experience online, they, or a trusted adult in their lives, should block and filter out things that they aren't comfortable with.

which is what everyone on the internet should be doing. it's what i do, and it's made the internet a much more pleasant place to be. and it's why i sometimes worry for antis mental health, especially teenagers, because they're being told it's right and moral to seek out content that makes them uncomfortable and to engage with the people making it. and that's just. really bad. it's not good for the creators that they're harassing obviously, but it's also really bad for them! it's not healthy to seek out things that make you feel bad, and it's a terrible internet safety lesson to teach minors that it's okay for them to seek out and engage with people making adult content.

individual harassment and crusading is never going to succeed at removing dark content from the internet. it just isn't. at best you might get a small percentage of people who create that content to stop sharing it, at worst you're just going to make people stop tagging it, and either way, you're exposing yourself to things that make you feel bad, when you don't have to.

if you want to materially change the type of content you see, you can. the block button is your friend, use it liberally. same with content filtering and tag blocking.

[sparkling-pink-lemonade]

Saw a post of an anti saying that they are leaving AO3, as they are too uncomfortable to post their fics there now. The reason? They found out one of their long time readers was a proshipper, despite their fics having proship dni. And how "that includes silent readers too, I don't want you all looking at my content."

My brother in christ, you are posting on the fiction freedom site. The proshipping site. Dnis aren't god damn restraining orders. They are one tool in helping you display your boundaries. It's still on you to enforce your boundaries. You post something publicly, you forfeit your ability to regulate who can view your work. If you're obsessive enough, you can regulate who actually interacts with your work by stalking each person in the kudos list, comments, or bookmarks and then blocking snyone you don't like, but you do not get a say on who may silently read your posts. Not unless you private your work and only show it to specific people.

And if you don’t want proshippers to interact, get off the profic site.

[extremeshinjienthusiast]

minors are allowed to speak out against child rape fantasy, actually. and you shouldn’t fucking silence them or have the nerve to calm THEM puritans, actually.

[profictionoverhaul]

Anti-shippers DNIs are so stupid.

You don't want to talk to yourself? YOU'RE THE HATEFUL ASS PERSON DUDE!!! Telling people to die IS hateful!!!!

[closetted-controversial]

Hello.

This is my anonymous account I am using to come out to myself, or discover myself; as a proshipper. (I know this sounds silly)

For years I have been surrounded by Anti's, and I have some friends that are Anti's that I know would not be safe to come out to as a Proshipper out of risk of losing several years long relationships or being accused of heinous things.

For a while I thought I was an Anti, but I am starting to realize theres a big miscommunication about the definition of proship and what it means, and learning about it has made me realize that I am definitely one of them.

I am scared, so I have decided to make a seperate blog to talk, interact, and maybe meet other proshippers so that I can become more confident in the title and maybe meet some people I relate too.

I don't know how to make introductions, but I'm a trans man, my age is 18, I am a self-shipper. I do have controversial ship dynamics. I enjoy age-gap. I do not condone this type of action in real life. (I can't believe I feel like I need to say that)

I'm very scared about making this blog due to the fear of harrassment, or my friends finding out, but I do want to meet new people.

Proshippers please interact with me? I'd like to meet some people so I can actually talk to the other side of things, since the Antis I am surrounded by are very firm with their one specific view and I... don't agree with them

[xx-slug-xx]

//tw- mentions of pedophilia, csem, csa, and lolicon

Guys, please please please don’t use the term CSEM to refer to fictional pornographic drawings that involve fictional characters who are depicted as minors

I can’t believe I have to say this, but I’ve seen too many people, just in the past 24 hours, use the term to describe porn that someone drew

Holy shit, lolicon and the like is not CSEM, CSAM, or CP just because a hypothetical and fictional minor is involved in the art. Those terms are specifically used when talking about real sexual abuse cases involving real-world minors.

Fiction cannot be CSEM because it doesn’t involve the direct sexual exploitation and abuse of a real minor! The creation of these pieces of media do not involve the direct harm of a real minor!

Just say “lolicon” or “fictional porn involving fictional minors”. Just use something, ANYTHING, that isn’t used to specifically identify real life abuse materials! Please just don’t use a term that has this much seriousness attached to it as a means of labeling fictional content that you don’t like, even if it triggers you!

You being uncomfortable doesn’t justify the misuse of a term that is used to directly describe abuse, and it makes real victims of CSEM feel like shit when you label some random anime girl as a “victim” right next to them. Because, get this, when you label something fictional as CSEM, CSAM, or CP, you are inherently insinuating that there is a victim involved in the creation of this media, which is inherently untrue with fiction. STOP DOING THIS!!!

[proficgen]

being an anti must be so stressful like, imagine shipping two characters and then the creator reveals they’re actually related?

Like what do you do??? stop shipping them??? fr?????

What if it turns out that the other character is actually toxic, you gonna just drop all the fanfics and stuff like that?? really?? on god?????

[proship-angel]

i just want to make it so clear that youtube is the place where i found my both favorite and least favorite example of how shipcourse has breached containment

like bro you are on youtube, you're lucky if someone even wants to read your description bc it was in the description of a gacha react video.

[red-devil330]

Video:

[proudproship]

I love when antis get upset over OCs in problematic pairings

"this ship is illegal!!"

No it isn't, the world my OCs live in has absolutely no law whatsoever and the guy with the most authority likes to run kids over with his magic train, therefore these cannibal brothers aren't breaking the law by kissing

And then the anti automagically loses the argument 💪😎

[woaheyeradioboy]

I genuinely don't fucking care what you like in fiction. I don't care how disgusting, heinous, or "illegal" (not actually) it is, as long as you aren't agreeing with it or acting out things you read in a non-roleplay/fiction setting.

TW: Rape, Child Abuse, Pedophilia, Age gaps, Abuse, Bestiality, Grooming, Incest, and similar content

You can read about someone being raped. You can read about a child being raped. You can read about incest. You can read about pedophilic incest. You can read about someone fucking a dog. You can read about someone being raped by an animal. You can read about someone grooming someone else. You can read about horrible power imbalances. You can read about Victim x Abuser. You can read about gang rape. You can read all of that and more, whether the content is "romanticizing" or "sexualizing" it or putting it in a "positive light", because I do believe if you're reading these things you are capable enough to not have your morals and "respect" of laws immediately broken because you didn't get told 100 different times during the story how bad the content was.

You can read WHATEVER THE FUCK YOU WANT, however you want, forever and ever. Don't act out the fiction in real life unless roleplaying with another consent adult (or teenager within your age range if you're not 18+) and it DOESN'T MATTER.

Fiction can affect reality, but usually only if you're allowing it to. Children oftentimes shouldn't be online but even if they are, it is never an authors fault or the people who enjoy the fiction the author writes that the child ends up exposed to bad things. If someone who is mentally unwell and cannot separate fiction and reality due to this is online and is affected by these things, it is not the authors fault or the fault of the people who enjoy the authors fiction.

If something that someone else wrote affects someone else in a bad way, it is not the authors fault.

Censorship of fiction is bad no matter what, and if you want to censor any form of fiction you are automatically already getting closer to people like transphobes and racists and ableists, because being pro-censorship ALWAYS leads down the same exact rabbit hole of puritan beliefs and controlling others.

[arsynnotarson]

why do antis say we're "triggering ourselves" or "reliving our trauma" because we ship the way we do..... we're not..???? its fiction. not the actual figures.

and even if we were, thats none of your business, and death threats aren't gonna help us either

literally goes to show that antis dont care about victims that cope in a way thats not aesthetic to them.

fiction isnt real. harassment is.

[sourisking]

Reminder that Harm Against Minors is a tumblr report option that should be used!

[Reminder that harm against minors is a tumblr report option that should be used!]

I’m so serious when I say this but if someone says they want to rape children fucking report them. Instantly. Tumblr will request an email response with links, and I’d suggest using a third party archive source if at all possible.

[profictionoverhaul]

The UT Needle Cookie...

Some remember it, some don't, but I saw a TikTok about it so I thought I'd share the awful comments I saw underneath it for you all, to prove that antis are still wishing literal harm and death over fictional ships to this very day. Which ironically, they were also doing when this news first dropped too.

(I censored the spit out cookie for y'all)

Now for some of the comments...

I remember first seeing about the incident on Tumblr back in the day, and there were antis under that post even then supporting the artist being hurt with the needle cookie, saying that they deserved it over their ships...

So while yes, we don't 100% know if the person who gave the needle cookie did it over ships (because the culprit wasn't caught), we can CLEARLY see that antis support the unknown person who tried to fucking kill someone over fictional ships. That alone is enough to be against anti-shippers.

Literal attempted murder is a "W move" according to antis. They respect it, they think the artist deserves it, all over artwork of Frans (and mind you, I followed the artist, all the romance stuff was Frisk as an adult with Sans, two consenting adults.)

And this is the type of person Antis inadvertently support with their logic too... A literal homophobe is siding with the antis, not a good look for the pro-censorship peeps.

[xx-slug-xx]

Hey Instagram and Twitter users! Especially minors in the proship community! Please keep your eyes out for this user! They claim to be an “older minor” (whatever that means) and that they are trying to help minor proshippers with “not proshipping”. She WANTS minors to dm her regarding trauma and other things to “help” them. They could be a troll, but anyone who claims to be a “safe adult” while trying to lure minors into dms is NOT SAFE!

Screenshots of his Twitter, and he’s very pro harassment so don’t read the posts if that makes you uncomfortable. Even if this person DOES have genuine intentions of helping people, harassment is the worst way to show those intentions. Especially if it’s harassment towards the people she wants to supposedly help.

She’s been getting some attention on proship Twitter, and there’s plenty of warnings and such, but I wanted to make sure people were aware here too. I believe she also has a TikTok, and it’s likely she’ll be on Tumblr soon if she’s not already. He could very well be a troll, multiple people, or whatever else. Doesn’t make what this account is doing any better though.