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aikoiya · 1 year

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DP HC - The Right to Retribution

This is based on the idea that an ecto-formic ghost's killer continuing to live & commit crimes is deeply traumatizing to the ghost in question.

As such, most civilized ghost societies have a law called the Right of Retribution where a ghost is allowed to do whatever they deem necessary in order to stop their killer, even if that means killing them.

It is even considered an inalienable right in a lot of places.

It's completely possible for a ghost to move on without doing this of course, but it makes it very difficult for a ghost to get to a place, psychologically, where they can do so.

It's similar to how a ghost can move on from not having a grave, but it's difficult on a personal, emotional, & psychological level.

For more on ghost psychology, go here:

& here:

I was so sure that I'd already made a post on this before or a reboot with it or something & that there was something about this mentioned in a DPxDC post regarding Jason Tood & him having been killed by the Joker, but I can't find either of them anywhere! If you know where they are, please tell me?

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What I find interesting is that Vlad could logically make an argument that he has every right to kill Jack as he was the one responsible for his death.

The problem comes when you realize that Jack had never intended to kill Vlad. Which is key. Because in several ghostly civilizations, malicious intent is necessary for it to actually be declared retribution. As such, in societies where retribution must be justified, there is often an investigation to determine whether it is or not. Not just to figure out if the individual actually murdered said ghost, but in some, to also uncover whether or not the individual has changed & are legitimately trying to make amends.

Like, there are ectomantic spells that only the best & most magically skilled of Retributive Investigators have, that allows them to go to a place where something happened, use a bit of a ghost's ecto & a piece of the accused murderer, & it'll create an illusion of what all happened in an area & it's just one part of their job to search through the provided scenes. Upon locating said scene, they must examine it thoroughly with a fine-toothed comb. Literally, it's a magically imbued comb that allows the investogator to focus in on a fuzzy area of the illusion by combing through the fuzziness.

If it's possible that there might be someone else involved, it is their duty to locate their DNA & use that to create an even fuller picture.

When the correct & fullest version of the scenes are found, they can then be bottled to show to a committee who will end up being the ones to vote & decide whether a kill is justified.

Of course, even with such magic, it's still possible for corrupt investigators or anyone knowledgeable enough on how the magic works, to tamper with the bottles & edit the scenes inside.

Interestingly, there is no clearance needed for a ghost simply looking to help the living police to catch their killer. So long as they remain invisible & only draw the police's attention to the truth, then no ghostly lawmakers would have a problem. But things like killing or crippling do require clearance.

So, it's possible that either Vlad doesn't know that it was an accident, doesn't believe it was an accident, or he forged evidence to make it look like it was murder & it'd only take a cursory look to see that Jack has some pretty damn speciesist ideas of ghosts.

I can see him rubbing the fact that he has clearance to murder Jack in Danny's face as he could technically argue that Danny is trying to obstruct his right to enact retributive measures upon the man who killed him & depending on the laws pertaining to the area in the IR that corresponds with where Vlad's initial accident took place/where he died/where he intends to kill Jack, it's entirely possible that Jack's death wouldn't need to be justified, just proven that he was responsible at least in part.

This could lead to Danny becoming wanted by ghost law in-general & not just by Walker. As there's a difference between rules made by a ghost who's Obsession is with rules as a ghost is able to inforce said rules to a degree within their own territory; & actual laws that ghostly societies have as being documented laws.

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At the same time, the investigation would be for the right to deliver justice upon the accused. They're trying to figure out if it'd be legal for Vlad to want Jack dead.

If so, then it means that they can't stop Vlad from killing Jack himself or from asking someone else to do it for him.

They're not gonna execute Jack themselves as that's not the purpose of the law. That would only happen if it was discovered during said investigation that Jack was a threat to ghosts as a whole & that he's committed crimes against ghosts who were ghosts at the time of said crime.

That would be when the Observants would get involved because then it's no longer just a question of Vlad's right to retribution, but the safety of ghosts in-general.

Generally, ghostly politics don't get directly involved with living matters unless it concerns ghostly society as a whole.

The investigation is just to confirm whether Jack was responsible for Vlad's death &, depending on the laws of the area in the IR that is most applicable (area corresponding to the place where the crime that resulted in Vlad's death was committed, area corresponding to where Vlad actually died, area corresponding to where Vlad plans to kill him, ect), whether or not killing Jack would be justified, further depending on whether or not he's killed someone again since.

This would all just allow clearance for Vlad to do so should he choose. It is entirely within his rights to instead decide to just have Jack arrested in the living realms or even crippled to the point where he can never hurt anyone again. Not that Vlad would choose those routes, but the fact is that he'd have those options & it'd be perfectly legal. In such a case as simply sending the man to jail, the investigation would only need to prove that Jack was responsible & possibly that there was a danger for it happening again. Not whether it was justified.

So, yes; legally, both Maddie & Sam would be subject to this as well, but Sam's part would only come up in an investigation for Danny specifically & we both know that he'd never ask for such an investigation as he doesn't blame anyone but himself for his death. Which is also completely within his right to retribution as well.

The same could also be said of Maddie in the cases of both Vlad & Danny, who was, in fact, partially responsible as well.

Jack, though, would be ska-rewed as he was also somewhat responsible for Danny's death even if it wasn't intentional.

It's also important to note that serial negligence is also a factor in these cases. Normally, Jack & Maddie could've been pardoned in some areas of the IR since the first time was an accident. Until it's discovered that it happened again, to their own son, at which point, even though that time was also an accident, it qualifies as criminally negligent homicide & it could feasibly be argued that they are liable to commit said crime in negligence again.

At the same time, if Vlad gets clearance to kill Jack, he'll also get clearance to kill Maddie too, which could end up blindsiding him as it's unknown whether he knew that Maddie was partially responsible for his death or if he was trying to deny that to himself. This might force him to confront said truth.

For all we know, it could utterly change his plans & it's undetermined as to how.

So, yes! There is a lot of factors that go into this sort of thing & it can be a headache!

—

Then, there are cases where a ghost's killer had died & became an ecto-formic ghost themselves. Or even if a ghost killed a human without just cause.

In such situations, it can become an entire court case. Though, the ability to call upon the victim does tend to expedite things a bit provided they remain truthful.

There's still an investigation though, as all angles are supposed to be explored to uncover the whole truth of the situation in case either party isn't saying something, forgot something, or simply doesn't know something.

If it's determined that the death was done maliciously or in negligence & it's liable to happen again or had happened before, then depending on what the victim wants to happen & what they are given clearance for, the victim can have their killer jailed, an ectomantic spell cast to have their killer artificially experience the very death that they brought upon the victim, however depending on the laws in place for the corresponding area of death, the victim is either allowed to obliterate the killer with their own hands or they can be entirely barred from doing so. Again depending on the relevant laws in place.

Most civilized ghost societies actually don't allow the victims to do as such & will instead jail the murderer if the victim wishes their existence ceased, then said murderer will be put on end row (the ghost equivalent to death row), but it is still important to establish that some societies do allow the victim to do it themselves.

It's also possible, that if the victim is actually given clearance to kill their murderer, if they don't have the stomach to perform the job, they can then request someone else do the deed, whether it be performed as part of end row or an outright assassination. If they are given that clearance, then neither the judicial system of the IR nor anyone else would have any right to interfere. Sure, someone is more than allowed to change the victim's mind, but they can't outright interfere.

—

However, there is definitely a different precedence when it comes to ghost on ghost forced cessation (called ectocide) which is treated much more strictly. It is generally conducted much more similarly to living world court.

In the case of Plasmius vs Phantom, Ellie specifically, practically an entirely new precedence would need to be created as not only are both halfas, but in my hc, Vlad did technically kill her, if just briefly, even though she was already half-ghost herself at the time. While one could compare her situation to having been resuscitated after being killed, to Ghosts, if all your bodily functions cease, even temporarily, then you died, if only briefly. As, you see, death leaves a sort of residue that ghosts can sense.

Vlad could easily get charged with outright murder (which would mean that he'd also be charged with attempted murder because, logically, if you managed to kill someone intentionally, then at some point you had attempted to kill them).

Because the case would be so complicated, it would require a lot of investigation, which would turn up the fact that Vlad had stolen Danny's dna, created Ellie via cloning without the boy's expressed permission, had used her, then when she refused to put herself & Danny in danger, he turned on her, chased her all over the world, & eventually melted her down resulting in a temporary cessation of all bodily functions.

That's not even getting into the fact that Elle qualifies as a baby ghost & thus is considered very precious in ghostly society.

In this case, it'd be something of a mix of ectocide & right of retribution.

By ghost law, even if someone is resuscitated, if they were medically considered dead for any amount of time, then it is still considered murder to them. The reason being that, in ghost terms, even a medically temporary cessation of life gives one a certain, albeit small, connection to death. A residue as mentioned before. And the longer that one is dead, the larger that connection will steadily become.

Even though in human terms, true death is only a thing if the person never comes back, ghosts know that there is more to it than that.

In this case, halfas are beings who die, develop a core, then are revived with that core still inside them, thus making them both alive & ghosts. In order to become a ghost & form a core, you have to have truly died. Cessation may have been temporary, but death is still death.

Which is another important thing here, the acknowledgement that a cessation took place & one's own part in it. In the case of Plasmius VS Fenton. This would very explicitly come up as not only would the Drs. Fenton be forced to acknowledge the fact that their negligence killed their son, but Danny would also be forced to acknowledge it as well. It wouldn't matter if he refused to enact his right upon them, facts are facts & the facts are that his parent's obsession killed him. And it'd be a hard pill to swallow.

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Furthermore, during the investigation of Jack, it is very highly likely that the case would be brought to a higher court due to the danger that both he & Maddie are to ghostly society because of their ectocidal tendencies.

Because of this & the fact that they directly hunt/torture ghosts, there'd be no need to try & hide, & instead the pair would both be taken in & tried in the high court.

While they'd likely think it was all rediculous, it'd become quickly apparent that ghosts had a full & in-tact judicial system.

Both Danny & Vlad would be required to appear in court & testify under a Pheonix Song Oath to tell the truth.

It'd surprise both Vlad & Danny very deeply. Vlad due to Maddie being tried too & Danny because, despite what he keeps telling himself, when the truth of what happened comes pouring from his lips & deep inside, he knows that none of it was a lie.

Then, the confusion & horror on both of the parents' faces when Vlad & Danny are forced to reveal their secrets to the pair.

The 2 would react very differently. Maddie in abject denial & Jack with horror bordering on sickness as everything comes crashing down around him.

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It's also important to note that sane & insane means little to nothing in ghost law, especially in the face of actions.

The biggest issue holding most cases back is time. Remember, the Realms are literally infinite & there are only so many Retributive Investigators & committees to go around. So, it can take time to get through them all. Cases related to serial killers & mass murderers tend to get handled the quickest as the many victims tend to gather together & make sort of petitions. The more victims, the more attention it draws & the more committees will notice.

So, if Jason Todd had become a ghost during his brief time dead, he & other Joker victims could've signed up for Retributive Measures & the high profile would've pushed the case through & gotten it investigated incredibly quickly. The investigators wouldn't have even needed to try too hard, Jokers crimes, mass murdering tendencies, disregard for life, his unapology, his wanton destruction, it would've insured a very rapid, very decisive guilty verdict.

Therefore, every victim would've been given full clearance to do whatever they saw as being just. The problem? Batman prevents their success at every turn.

Like, it'd be one thing if Arkham actually kept the bastard there & treated him. But they don't. Arkham is practically a revolving door for the criminally insane. Which, among retributive committees would disqualify it as a proper place to keep the Joker. Hell, it'd even be one thing if the Joker was actually effing receptive to help, but he isn't. And if there's one thing that such old committee members know from direct experience, it's where to spot someone who will never change because they don't want to. Not to mention how to identify a sane person who's just grifting in order to keep from ending up in actual jail & off death row.

Every instance in which Joker has come close to dying or even outright died? At least one of his victims were behind it.

Thing is, if Jason were to ever remember this, if he could get his hands on proof of his death from both living realm & Infinite Realms, thus proving his Infinite Realms Citizenship, register Gotham as his official haunt & even lair with the Spirit of Gotham's support, as well as an official copy of his Legal Clearance for Retributive Measures (LCRM), he could prove that he has a legal right to kill Joker & by Batman trying to stop him it makes him liable to at least a hundred years jail time in the Ghost Zone for interfering with a ghost's right to seek peace & recover mental health.

Making it clear that ghosts don't possess the same psychological structure as humans. For one, a ghost's mental state is directly connected with their physical state. That while revenge does corrupt ghosts much like it does humans, retribution does not because it is fueled by righteous fury & justified anger. By not allowing Jason to fulfill his need for retribution, he is causing many of Joker's victims to spiral ever deeper into mental & medical torment as a ghost's killer is a highly traumatic subject for them. That the killer's continued ability to keep performing such acts causes their victims ghosts to suffer more in a physical manner.

That since Jason is an Ecto-Liminal whose experienced death & thus part of both the Living & Infinite Realms at once, that means that he is allowed to take retribution directly & without restraint.

That because Gotham herself has given him permission to call Gotham his official haunt, that means that the laws of the Infinite Realms extends here & with just a few negotiations between the mayor of Gotham & the Beating-Heart Boyking, Jason will be given temporary leave of humanity so that human law will not apply to him so long as the Joker remained alive. And until that fucker is dead for good, it'll be clown season & nothing Bruce does would be able to stop him.

Either way, when a ghost's killer is dealt with, the ghost word for it roughly translates to "freeing."

For more, go to my full Ghost Zone Masterlist.

#danny phantom #dp #headcanon #danny phantom headcanon #right to retribution #retribution #revenge #ghost psychology #ghost law #ghost lore #aikoiya hc #writing prompt

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wolfeyedwitch · 1 year

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“ are you going to kill me? ” Pariah Prisoner Bailey?

Pariah Prisoner, Part 6

Also for @amonthofwhump's Winter Whumperland day 8: revenge whump.

Have some complicated Emotions and Feelings.

CW: medical setting (including mention of IVs), Bailey's crappy headspace. I think that's it, though that list seems suspiciously short... If I missed anything, please let me know!

Masterlist

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Luke looked up from his tablet and glared at the figure on the bed. Of all the people on the team, why was he the one tasked with watching the villain who nearly killed him?

Stupid question. He knew why. Maeve was sleeping off the efforts of keeping Poppet alive. Zera was banned from anything until they’d had a meal and a minimum of 4 hours of sleep, given the dissociation and freak-out session they’d had in the medbay earlier. Iris was combing through the data on how they’d been intercepted and captured in the first place, and Elijah was tackling the small mountain of paperwork the shitshow had generated.

Luke, on the other hand, didn’t have anything pressing. The only injuries he’d gotten in their escape were some minor scrapes and cuts, nothing serious enough for Maeve to bother with, and he’d had his adrenaline crash nap already. So really, he wasn’t the best option so much as the only option.

That didn’t mean he had to like it.

It didn’t make sense, was what bothered him the most. He’d had this mental image of who had attacked him. They were cold, impassive, ruthless. A sadist of the worst sort. They had no problem torturing him to the brink of death and leaving him to topple over that edge.

And then it turns out his attacker was Poppet. A villain with no prior history (that they knew of, he reminded himself) of violent actions. Who he now had interacted with, and he didn’t know what to think anymore.

Save your sympathy for someone worthy of it, they’d said. They hadn’t played on Zera’s soft heart or Elijah’s stubborn insistence on seeing the potential in everyone.

I’ll tell you everything I did so you can repeat it. They hadn’t denied that they’d hurt Luke. They even seemed genuine when they said they were sorry.

You were right about me. I’m just Slipknot’s little toy, their stupid attack dog. He didn’t remember those words, meaning he must have said them during whatever encounter led to…

To an otherwise sane, empathetic-seeming kid beating him nearly to death.

He couldn’t make that sequence of events make sense. He was still missing something, and it nagged at him like an itch he couldn’t quite scratch.

The only source for that missing information was Poppet themself. Meaning Luke would just have to wait.

---

The wait ended up being shorter than he expected. It was only a few hours into Luke’s guard duty bedside vigil that Poppet woke.

The signs were subtle at first. Their breathing, which had been regular and deep, hitched and stuttered. Their brows furrowed like they were in pain. Luke got up to double-check the IV drip.

Which meant that he had front-row seats to see Poppet open their eyes.

They looked like a startled horse, their eyes wide enough to show a ring of white all the way around the iris. Their gaze darted around the room before finally landing on the IV in their arm. Poppet’s breath caught in their throat before coming out as a quiet whimper. They reached for the IV.

“Hey, don’t,” Luke said sharply.

Poppet jumped. Apparently his presence hadn’t been important enough to register in their look around the room.

“Whe—” they croaked out before their voice gave up on them.

“Hero HQ, medbay,” he said. He crossed his arms over his chest. “Our medic went to the trouble of patching you up, so don’t even think about undoing her work. The IV stays in.”

He saw Poppet’s throat work as they swallowed, then nodded. “It worked?” they asked.

Luke snorted and raised an eyebrow. “Your plan? More or less. We got out, despite the issues there at the end.”

Poppet closed their eyes. Their face smoothed out as they took a deep breath and exhaled slowly. “Good. That’s- that’s good.”

Luke didn’t bother replying. He let the silence stretch out between them as he studied the villain. He was torn. Part of him, the bitter part that couldn’t see past what had happened to him, said this was an act. This was fake, a way to get someone into the Hero HQ as a spy. Poppet was just a convincing actor, and would stab all of them in the back the first chance they got.

The more rational part of him, the part that could admit he was hasty in attacking Poppet back in Slipknot’s cell, said that that was ridiculous. A dislocated shoulder might be one thing to convince the heroes, but that batshit escape plan that somehow worked? Getting stabbed? Those were something else entirely.

Poppet’s eyes flew open again, looking at Luke in a panic. “Are you okay? The others? Foxfire and Tempest?”

This villain had no damn right to look so earnest about their concern for his teammates!

“They’re fine,” Luke bit out, harsher than he really meant. Poppet flinched at his tone, and he sighed. Softer, he added, “Foxfire wore themself out carrying you back here. They’re resting. Tempest is doing paperwork for all this shit. No one besides you got anything more than scrapes and bruises in the escape.”

“Good,” Poppet said, finally breaking that too-intense eye contact. “That’s… I’m glad.”

They closed their eyes, face scrunching like they were in pain. Luke checked their IV again. Everything was fine.

Their next words were so quiet, he wouldn’t have heard them if he were any further away. “Are you going to kill me?”

Luke actually made himself dizzy with how fast his head snapped around to look at Poppet. “What.”

“I won’t fight you,” the villain said, voice barely audible. Their eyes were open now, but they wouldn’t look at him. They stared resolutely at the ceiling like they were trying to hold back tears. “Or I’ll try not to, anyway. I… I can’t guarantee I won’t use my telekinesis on instinct. But I’ll—”

“Stop,” Luke said.

Poppet’s mouth closed with an audible click. They squeezed their eyes shut.

Luke ran a hand over his face. What the fuck. What the actual, entire fuck.

Okay. He gets it, okay? He fucked up. He attacked them back in the cell, and said some things that weren’t exactly all rainbows and sunshine. But that was the heat of the moment, alright? He has a temper, and this whole… thing, is kind of a big trigger for it.

It was one thing to make threats (and… throw punches… yeah, he fucked up, he’s aware) in the heat of the moment. It’s an entirely different thing to talk about it so calmly and matter-of-fact.

“I’m not,” he started, then broke off with a groan of frustration. Why was this so hard? Why couldn’t this be a simple situation with a simple bad guy that he could simply rage at?

Because life is rarely simple, came a mental voice that sounded suspiciously like Elijah, the even-tempered asshole.

“I’m not going to kill you,” he said.

He expected Poppet to be relieved. Instead, they looked more upset after hearing that. They opened tear-filled eyes and stared back up at the ceiling, still refusing to look at him.

“Right,” said Poppet. Their voice was thick with emotion. “I still owe you that list.” A tear escaped and rolled down their face.

List? What list? When had they… mentioned…

I’ll tell you everything I did so you can repeat it.

Oh.

Fuck.

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Dun dun dun!!!

Taglist:

@heathenville @nonbinary-disaster @kim-poce @whump-world @dolls-circus @pickleking8 @ghostfacepepper @cupcakes-and-pain @badluck990 @mylifeisonthebookshelf @pumpkin-spice-whump @deluxewhump @extemporary-whump @whumpwillow @multiple-characters1-acct @sunflower1000 @fleur-alise @equestrianwritingsstuff, @scp-1296 @livingforthewhump @thingsthatgo-whump-inthenight @suspicious-whumping-egg @kaiwewi @lelly-belly @neuro-whump @newbornwhumperfly @whumpthisway @whumpcreations, @wicked-whump @heart4brains, @myhusbandsasemni @how-to-be-a-hero @kixngiggles @kurochan @whumpsday @extrabitterbrain @pattonvirglsanders @neverthelass @we-write-as-one @elrysdoesstuff @whumperflies-and-roses @ha-ha-one @whatwhumpcomments @ramadiiiisme @towerlesskey @emmanemanemm @pigeonwhumps @whumpycries

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philosophybits · 1 month

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As long as blow is followed by counter-blow, catastrophe is perpetuated.

Theodor W. Adorno, Minima Moralia, 33

#philosophy #quotes #Theodor W. Adorno #Minima Moralia #revenge #retribution #ethics

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philosophybitmaps · 4 months

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#philosophy #quotes #Martha Nussbaum #Anger and Forgiveness #Nussbaum #anger #retribution #revenge #responsibility #ethics

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idlenight · 10 months

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Because Suicide Scar won in the initial HB scar poll this is the part 2 because the scar got phased out in favor of the Suitag in Retribution.

I'd also love to hear your reasoning for which scar pipeline fit your Step the best!

#fallen hero #fallen hero rebirth #fallen hero retribution #fhr #sidestep #poll #polls #For River his suicide scar phased into the revenge scar #he's channeling his anger and hatred of himself outward instead. it keeps him alive.#I also enjoy the revenge scar / justive motivation combination

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commsroom · 2 years

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i know it’s a popular idea, but i don’t think i can ever really be on board with the idea of lovelace having some big post-canon revenge tour. like, i can appreciate the catharsis of a good revenge narrative in other contexts, don’t get me wrong, but given the themes of wolf 359 as a show, and particularly the values lovelace expresses in her own character arc, i can’t see it as anything other than a tragic regression into the exact type of person she chose not to become.

“the whole epic rampage of revenge thing? isabel lovelace wouldn't do that. the terrible wretch that you people made isabel lovelace into? oh, she'd do that. but... i’m not going to be that person anymore. i’m going to be isabel lovelace again. even if i never have before.”

twice near the end of s3 hilbert calls lovelace isabel, sees in her some shared experience and reflection of himself and his willingness to do whatever it takes, by any means necessary, but he fails to realize that what he recognizes is the result of trauma inflicted on her largely by him. hilbert is a constant reminder of what lovelace has lost and what’s been done to her, and in some sick way that makes him the last link to her past. they both die, and she comes back, and he doesn’t, and she decides to be isabel lovelace again. i don’t think that’s a coincidence.

wolf 359 as a show seems to believe in the futility of revenge - all of dirty work, “and then what? who pays for this? who owns up for this murder? and for the one after this one?” - and places its faith instead in the power of individuals to break cycles of violence and abuse. and i think that’s relevant to the wording of lovelace’s final lines in the show: “look up some old friends, take apart goddard futuristics brick by brick... maybe go to disneyland? but first, i’m going to take a long vacation, somewhere warm and quiet, where nobody has any idea who i am.”

lovelace feels a sense of duty in dismantling goddard and holding them to account, but it’s a world away from the all-consuming ire and drive for revenge “run and hide” contained. i think that’s where the focus should be. it’s not about hurting the people who hurt her, not anymore. it’s about preventing them from hurting anyone else. it’s a final act of love and closure for the people she couldn’t save, to say: i’m still here. i remember you. i’ll make sure your families know the truth. i’ll make sure they never hurt anyone else, ever again. i can’t bring you back, but your deaths won’t be in vain.

i think it’s important to emphasize that lovelace is NOT a violent person. she doesn’t want to be. she doesn’t enjoy it. whatever she may have been driven to by fear and trauma and desperation, she chooses to be isabel lovelace, and that’s not the person isabel lovelace is. i hope she does help take goddard down. structurally. brick by brick. and then i hope she lives a good, peaceful, happy life, in the memory of all her loved ones who couldn’t. like minkowski in boléro: “so that we never forget how important it is that we're still here.”

#wolf 359 #w359 #isabel lovelace #i hope this doesn't seem confrontational at all it's just.#something that's been on my mind for a long time #i have some other tangential thoughts that i might get into later about. revenge in wolf 359 and how the alternative to that #isn't exactly forgiveness #it's about. healing it's about choosing to end cycles of violence and trauma and saying. i won't let you hurt anyone else #and i won't enact hurt. no matter how much i want to or how much you may deserve it. because taking away the power to do hurt #matters more than retribution #and that does kind of tie in to wolf's overall stance on rehabilitative justice #and it's very human. that someone can be an irredeemable monster to one person and someone else's best friend #obviously to differing degrees of severity but. there's something to it.#i do think jacobi and lovelace could potentially parallel each other in a post-canon scenario but it's because they've both #been in that place of all-consuming desire for retribution and had to step back from it. in their own ways.#and they're kind of the outsiders in a way because they've both lost Their people. lovelace is closer to the others than jacobi by FAR but.#it's not the same.#also re: clones in wolf 359 and how they're on opposite sides of that. experience.#the tiamat logs suggest maybe each clone is a little bit different in subtle ways but i think it's worth considering that maybe #they are identical at the moment of creation and the 'differences' the aspects of them that are amplified are a result of #minute differences in their experiences and ways they're treated from that point forward #but that the potential for all of those things was the same in each of them #there's also something about the use of names in wolf 359 #especially how often Full Names are used as a way to assert identity #to say #no matter who you become. what version of yourself you cultivate. you are still Yourself and no one can take that away.#it's a choice. and there's something powerful in that.#anyway. getting away from myself here.

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