#stan/anti culture sucks

[mikeellee]

Hey fellow MHA critics, just a heads-up (it may be unnecessary) but stans do lurk around here and they like to screenshot our responses and show in Twitter to mock.

"lol they are so dumb"

And it's not the first time they do this to me, usually is about my choices of shipping as if this dictate my whole life.

They screenshot an answer I gave regards Shig and his leadership, no one menages to counter my arguments aside "lol she is wrong. Clearly someone didn't pay attention to MVA"

Well, clearly someone doesn't get media literacy here. It's them! Just to be clear (if you are reading this, it's you! LoV Stan)

If you love LoV

If you love Shig

Why you need to result to that? If they are so well developed...if we are all wrong...then ok. Enjoy your content and be happy.

I'm just warning bc they may have done the same with @bibibbon @doodlegirl1998 @kite2013 @sapphic-agent and more.

I used canon examples, Shig is a bad leader. It's canon...but in their minds: not only shig is a great leader but we were rob of the greatest love story between dabi x shig (ship and let ship but some people go to far)

[internal-ethics]

m8datobi stans complaining about m8datobi fics making tbrm ooc and wanting in-character tbrm in their shipfics is the funniest shit ever

[itspyon]

compilation post of commentary youtubers talking about dream, no drummyaches edition !

note, i might not exactly like 100% of the things said in these videos BUT they ultimately redeemed dream to a very large audience

starting with i think is the most viewed video right now, Will Dream's Response Actually Fix Anything? by Lessons in Meme Culture. it's 2:40 minutes long and the point is simply to open conversation about him being able to successfully redeem himself, but it has a lovely comment section if you want to scroll through that

Dream Just Responded To Everything by AugustTheDuck, had already spoken about Dream pretty positively, lovely guy, lovely summary [ touches earpiece the main studio is telling me august actually was a dream hater but turned around recently, so noting that down ]

Dream's Response was Perfect, But... by EntLaiser, who previously made a video actually speaking negatively of Dream, completely changed his opinion and talked about how meme culture is being used to justify mass harassment, along with being nice to Dream stans and defending them

Pyrocynical made a video. its bad. don't watch it. he gets cooked in the comments though so that's okay. Acheeto also made a video but i don't like the guy so i'm not linking that either, but it was a good video

Dream Finally Responded To The Allegations by sensitive soci3ty. i really like this video but i especially like the comments that bring up a lot of great points, it was refreshing scrolling through them

LIES! by Omni. Omni is really big on the commentary community so his input is valued, this video is long and goes through a lot of unrelated stuff because it's a news segment, but i linked to the timestamp he talks about Dream. it is long, it is thorough, he READS THE DESCRIPTION which i haven't seen anyone do, pretty good

Dream Might Actually Be Innocent by Saverino. this guy is like, the perfect representation of "i only consumed Dream content through social media for years", the most passive onlooker in the world. and his video is awesome, he took a lot of notes, he resumed Dream's video pretty well, and i feel the way he thinks of Dream is how people will look at dream from now on

Dream Finally Responded by Dolan Dark. it's a slob but it's fucking Dolan Dark and he says he believes he's innocent so who cares W for us

other creators we already know and knew they believed Dream, Hot Sauce Beats did a live reaction and so did Nate Alyn if you'd like to go and support them

Dream's Response Was Actually Good by Saamuel. dream hater admitting he was wrong. all is good in the world

Dream Finally Responded To The Allegations by Optimus. don't watch this video lol. he says a bunch of stupid shit, his comments call him out for it, but i am linking it because this guy is huge on the community, a lot of people were waiting on this video on twitter, and he's very clear on saying the allegations are fake, along with shaming twitter antis for their behaviour

Dream's Response Wasn't Good Enough by luhrix specifically talks about the reaction from antis on twitter to the video and how unreasonable some expectations are when it comes to responding to allegations

Does Dream's Response Make Him Innocent? by Blissolic who VERY BRAVELY calls out coyglone ( the guy behind the dreamwastalen account ) for being a piece of shit

Dream Responded... by Repzion. excellent video no notes, less about dream himself and more a critique of how people consume serious topics as "drama" and farm engagement through it

I Was In Dream's Video by orangepeanut. it's kind of ass but he is in dream's video ! he's the "dream sucked his own dick" guy. he says sorry for baiting and actually apologises to dream which is kind of funny, and he does say dream is innocent. just noting it down for reference

Dream's Response Was GREAT! by TekuToji. another excellent video, nice summary. he did thought the poki xqc dms were real but he corrected himself on the comments lol

Dream Has Returned ( and why you should be excited ) by PurpleMatter. sweet video ! go leave a nice comment :D

this is a different one as it is a full reaction, but it is by Kenji, a VERY famous vtuber, and he was awesome about it and called out his chat several times when they spoke misinformed shit. it's very fun and i'm glad a completely different audience now has a positive view of Dream

[taylortruther]

What are your thoughts on fans being anti-Travis due to his problematic associations? He’s affiliated with the NFL that is known for domestic abuse, and while I know you will say it’s not his responsibility to address, doesn’t being associated with such an organization say something about him? It seems like Taylor is okay with it. But when you tell those people that all people are imperfect they act as if he is irredeemable. Is he?

i dislike most sports because they are part of a culture that i just can't support, so i understand people having the ick about the nfl or players in general. but "irredeemable"? people cannot seriously think this fjdkasl

football is massively popular in the us, and assuming that everyone who plays it, enjoys the game, or associates with the players is "pro domestic abuse" is unreasonable. no rational people think that. because if you behave by that logic, can we not say the same for taylor? many problematic people work in the music industry and hollywood - if she chooses to keep her job, should she be tarred and feathered for willingly taking part in a problematic industry?

also, if taylor is so problematic because she associates with problematic people, then why continue to stan her? if association is all it takes, doesn't that mean our association as fans of hers makes us problematic too? if you run a blog about her, you must not really care at all about these things, which makes you a bad person. yeah, even if you discuss these things. because overlooking these things enough to stan her and enjoy her music means being complicit in the crime or moral issue itself. and if any of your friends like football or taylor, your association with them is even worse! and if you hear a taylor song playing at a grocery store, or see an nfl game playing at a bar, isn't it your responsibility to tell the management to turn it off? because if you don't, aren't you complicit in supporting problematic industries?

or... can we just admit that the nfl sucks, but travis can still be a decent person (as can taylor), and you don't have to like him or want to bone him, and you do not have to justify any of your opinions by saying they are irredeemably problematic people.

[funishment-time]

you know...

i think in short what i'm always getting at is that we lack Video Essays about DR from people who are still actively fans, and genuine fans at that. we have a lot of "DR is so cringe am i right" essays from antis, we have a lot of "DR is so cringe but i like it lmao don't hate me" essays, and we have a lot of "i used to like DR but decided it sucked and here's why you're bad if you like it too" essays, and tons of material from people who kind of only half-care about Danganronpa (that is: v3) from afar as a curiosity, but...

i'd love more critical views and in-depth insights from people who can look at DR with a rational kind of love. there will always be Bias, of course, and i guess "DR has its flaws but i really do love it" isn't good clickbait. BUT i'd still take it over the 507th 20 minute video on how "the fandom" (Komaeda stans circa 2016 that don't even post anymore) is "toxic" (did wild shit that 15 year olds do on the internet when unsupervised) and "the whole franchise is mid" (there was a Komaeda ass shot in the anime we all kind of ignore anyway)

...

oh and also not racist. i cannot stress how much we need to not be Racist about this. the moment you say "Japanese culture is [pedophilic]/[sexist]/[etc]" and you're named Todd and from a state where child marriage is legal and women couldn't get loans without their husbands' permission until like 1985, i'm walking away

[harocat]

I find lots of people who are into Cdramas have what I can only describe as “celebrity brain”. They only really watch shows that have their fav actor, always want the character played by their fav to be the endgame romantic choice (even if it goes against character and theme), and seem to hinge their mental health on whether a show with their fav does Big Numbers. Fans of male actors tend to have misogyny problems too, but I think most people who run an account dedicated to a Chinese celeb could afford to take a step back and remember that they don’t actually know these people

Yes it's very stan culture centered. This is one of the reasons I like Cdrama tumblr better. It feels like it's more about actually enjoying the shows (and yes, sometimes the actors), then endless forced promotion, discussion of heat indexes, fan wars, etc.

People have their faves here, and they share news about them, pics of them, etc. They go out of their way to watch their dramas (or at least attempt to if they end up bad lol), and they're happy when they're successful or popular. They share info about accolades and awards.

But most don't make that their whole viewing experience. They aren't becoming keyboard warriors for some dude they don't know and will never know. They're here because they love dramas, not because they have an intense parasocial relationship with an actor or actress.

The way the Wang Yibo blackface discourse morphed from people rightfully calling him out, to the WYB super fans taking over the conversation and making it more about how antis are using it to hate on him is such a good example. Now discussion of it is rebuked with 'oh no don't give the 🐜 more fuel to hate him', and that sucks. I don't give a fuck about antis. I care that WYB did blackface in his movie, and that pisses me off!! They're over there like 'I know in my heart of hearts WYB could not be racist' as if they've ever been within the same wide vicinity of him in their entire life.

With the Dylan thing it's so wild to me because:

he is the male lead

he is the endgame romantic choice

They're pitting him against the female lead for what reason?? They're not rivals. It's giving misogyny, and the fact that they can't handle a woman standing on an equal level with him (she was first billing because she was more famous at the time, yes, but she's also just as much the lead. LBFAD is pretty balanced in that respect). She must be below; both the character and actress. She must be the less popular and important character!! We are going to restructure the narrative of Love Between Fairy and Devil in our minds so it's entirely DFQC's show.

This same person was complaining about the Xiao Lanhua being a goddess storyline because it makes her too important and makes DFQC 'pitiful' (totally out there to me; every other Cdrama fan I know eats it up when a man is pitiful). Like, people would not care about Dylan in LBFAD, and he certainly wouldn't be getting acting accolades, if he were cool all the time in it. It's the pitiful moments, the emotional moments, that make people love him.

It's not even just LBFAD though. I saw major Dylan fan accounts undermining Bai Lu and cropping her out of pics when promoting Only for Love.

I think Esther and XLH just get it worse, because let's be real, LBFAD is good, their chemistry was undeniable, the show was huge, and regardless of how close they are now (we have no idea), it's obvious they were really good friends when on set.

[longing-for-rain]

What incident are you talking about that makes zk mad and have personal beef with you?

Actually now that I’ve done some investigating it’s unclear exactly who is mad at me because there are two cliques mad at me for opposite reasons.

Basically, I hold what I used to think was a very simple and uncontroversial opinion, which is that fiction is a great way to explore dark themes and topics, but at the same time, can spread harmful and insulting messages if these topics aren’t treated respectfully. Too much nuance for tumblr, apparently. Some people called me a terf for saying rape is bad and some people called me a pedo for so much as mentioning sexual themes in my writing. So we’ve got polar opposites here.

As for “incidents” I’ll give a brief overview under a cut because (warning) it involves sexual abuse and suicidal ideation.

To summarize:

I became active in the Zutara fandom during mid-late 2020 as a result of being online due to the pandemic. Just before the pandemic, I suffered a sexual assault and Zutara (ship and community) became a source of escapism and comfort for me

Shortly after becoming active on tumblr, I joined a fandom event and was paired up with a beta reader. This person proceeded to groom and sexually abuse me over the course of about a year. To put it in perspective, this occurred during the height of the pandemic and we were often on discord calls for hours every day. It was a very involved and predatory “friendship”. And I want to make this extremely clear—do not try to find this person. I’ll only answer questions about this in DMs if you legitimately have personal safety concerns. I don’t think they’re even active anymore and I’ve made peace with the fact I’ll never get proper closure or justice and any attempt will only result in more victim blaming and abuse. So please don’t bother. I’ve been over it

I didn’t realize what was happening to me was sexual abuse at the time, only that it hurt and that something was wrong. Due to the sort of culture I’d been sucked into, I wasn’t allowed to properly express my discomfort and had difficulty articulating what was wrong (being autistic doesn’t help there either). So every time I tried voicing discomfort, I was shamed into silence until it reached a breaking point

As I gradually started waking up to the fact I was being abused, I also, as a result, started unpacking some of the harmful ideas that were directly enabling my abuse and questioning them. This made my abuser angry; they felt their control slipping I imagine. I started exploring these ideas through my writing and asking questions about things. That made people angry

My abuser knew what they were doing. They were a self proclaimed “fandom old” and knew how these communities operate much better than I did at the time. So they got a notoriously loud and stupid Zutara stan angry with me, who proceeded to (predictably) write a bunch of unhinged tumblr rants and dogpile on me over discord. As a result, everyone in her clique also decided I was evil and scapegoated some other bullshit (at this point I don’t even remember everything I’ve been accused of) onto me. She also used sexually degrading language (I don’t think she knew this but it was word-for-word things that had been said to me by men who abused me in real life) and this resulted in me being triggered, suicidal, and it was a whole mess. Lots of people were fighting and there was even a rumor (I have no way of confirming this) that anti-Zutara people got in the mix because they enjoyed watching the infighting

I actually did attempt suicide once, and seriously considered it on a few other occasions. These people only used this as further evidence that I was crazy and couldn’t be trusted or believed

Then, as I stated increasingly using writing to vent about what I experienced, people got mad at me for that too. Even called me a pedo. I think that’s the worst part—that the message from all this is that women’s sexual assault and torture is meant for titillation and entertainment, but serious and meaningful exploration of it is forbidden

Currently, people still share out of context pieces of this story and act like I’m some horrible prude and/or pervert. People who don’t even know me spread rumors without asking me a single thing. They’re spineless and believe whatever their respective clique does. So that’s where I’m at

At this point I more or less keep to myself and focus on writing. I do really love writing and Zutara, and despite everything, it still did/does bring me comfort while dealing with the worst few years of my life. I also have received so much positive feedback about my writing—people telling me it helped them, it resonated, it made them see things in a new light. That’s meaningful to me so I continue doing it.

And I try not to take what happened too personally either. Over time I realized I’m not the first person they treated like this and I won’t be the last. That’s just how cliques work, and how people who are different are treated. Tale as old as time: once they’ve decided you’re a witch, they’ll burn you no matter what you say.

[alarrytale]

Seeing larries kissing Louis' ass in his new post honestly just grosses me out. Do y'all not have any self-respect? Why are so many larries fine with being his punching bag, his scapegoat, being gaslit and manipulated, and having him add fuel to the larrie hate train? I love him too. But at some point, he has to realize this shit isn't okay. It's not okay to speak to your fans this way and disrespect them. To single one fan out. And to do it so publicly where the media can pick it up, where the solo louies & harries, antis, and gf stans can use it as ammunition against us. I can't even go on the pop culture subreddits I like bc of how badly the hate is against us. Not only was this a stupid fucking move before trying to sell tickets in LatAm but why in the world would you treat the fans who have stuck by you since the beginning this way? We've seen through the bullshit in both 1D and his solo career. We've seen through the false image that was painted of him, although now he seems more than happy to play along. We've tried to be there for both him (and H) because THEY made it very clear for YEARS that they were together, closeted, and fighting back. Look, I get it some larries are doing way too much with their theories esp the ones that think Louis, Harry, and T*ylor are all gay beasties who are going to bring down the industry together. But they started this shit. They encouraged fans to look deeper. They came up with the name Larry Stylinson, not us. They got the corresponding tattoos and made it very obvious, not us. Louis got the dagger. They did rbb and sbb, which really caused fans to start theorizing. Louis did the Spotify canvases that connected back to H and Larry. Louis did the promo (was it for Walls?) where we had to find the different locations, and they almost always had a Larry reference nearby (I know I didn't explain that example well). Louis specifically puts H and Larry references in his music that he knows we know about. He's the one that put out the Just Like You music video. He's the one that put Style on the wall of the Miss You video. They're the ones that continuously use blue and green lights. Louis specifically interacts with Larries and Larry related signs and flags at his show. I mean, the list goes on and on. So, if you want people to chill out on Larry, how about you stop feeding it? Because this whole back and forth is exhausting and mentally draining. I'm really fucking tired of being made the joke of this fandom by Louis when we've done nothing but see him for who he really is and love him for that. And now the harassment and death threats have skyrocketed from solos, hets, gf stans, stans of other fandoms, and people into pop culture. I'm tired of seeing mental health being used as an insult against us as well because Louis and Harry not only started this, they encouraged this behavior from larries for YEARS. And then you have people who used to be around them (from xf times) Rebecca and mainly Katie talking about how truly horrible XF, Syco, and Modest were. How truly manipulative. How horribly they treated everyone, esp the boys. I mean, she's even talked about how the boys still have some of the same people around them since the early days. I know she went after larries one time (maybe more bc I stopped listening to her after that), but she made sure to talk about them and basically say without saying that a lot of our theories about xf, management, and syco weren't far off. Others around them have played into Larry. So, why doesn't he tell them to stop. Like, stop going after fans for something you created and encouraged for years. Just ignore it until you're ready to come out, if that ever happens.

I do have a question. I know stunts suck and Harry has been stunting a lot. I know H*livia was extremely upsetting. But why do larries seem to get more people upset at Harry for doing a pap walk with T*ylor, or even the ones he did with OW where he was obviously miserable, then they do with Louis outright shitting on us - multiple times? I'd much rather see Louis have to do a pap walk or two with some girl than throw fans under the bus, you know what I mean? Because while stunting sucks, it's playing the Hollywood game and something they probably are required to do to uphold the het image. Choosing to shit on fans shouldn't even be on the table if we mean as much to you as you say.

Sorry for the rant and rambling. I'm just really hurt and have so many feelings and probably didn't express everything properly. I don't recognize this "Louis," and it's really put me off. I thought we were a team, and now I just feel completely unwanted by him.

Let it out, anon 🧡

I know this hurts, especially for those of you who haven't experienced this before. We shouldn't have to deal with this. I think most people are able to ignore it and move past it because they know he's closeted and why he's doing it. They know that Louis doesn't love them any less, despite what his public twitter account might suggest. We know he's got little agency and we know he's being made to do things against his will. We see past his image and actions.

I would prefer him stunting over lashing out against his fans too. Maybe that's not an option or maybe he didn’t have a choice. Either way it isn't okay. It wasn't okay in 2012 and it isn't okay now. The only thing we can do is stop supporting him and giving him our money. Some love him and want him to succeed, and fight with him against the chains holding him back. He won't be able to do that without larries. So they keep supporting him and live in hope that things will change for the better someday. It's up to you to decide what your limits are and what you can and can't support.

[bythenineshards]

Omg what was up with that Feysand stan on ur post????? ITS JUST A THEORY. (Not to mention a MUCH better pairing) and lol if Feysand was always endgame why in the fck does Rhysie SA Feyre??? Did Sjm do that to build sexual tension (cause Feyre says in Acomaf she had "wanted him even then") AND THAT'S INFINITELY WORSE!!

Lmao they tried to fire up on one of my posts too and I immediately blocked them. Seen them one too many times fighting about posts that's none of their business. Like life is so empty u need to fight with strangers on the internet to feel something. I am literally so mad not them saying Tamlin Apologists deserve to be bullied?!?!? For liking a fictional character????!!

I took personal offence to that

Ha! See! I told you I would respond today. I totally didn't get sucked into Skyrim and my writing and nearly forgot.

Idk what their problem was. They blocked me like the first week I was on here so I didn't think much of them. I knew about them because there would be discourse on posts and an invisible opponent. So I guess they unblocked me to stir shit and idk, get more traffic to their blog? They rebranded with a name that is clearly meant to draw in Antis of Feysand. I think they're like 15 and so I guess they're in their "I'm edgy look at me phase" where they want to pick fights because they think they're always right and special. I'm so glad I didn't grow up with my cringe behavior on the internet.This is why we don't sell erotica or "dark romance" to children. They can't handle speculation or discussions. I bet they cry over Marvel's What If... series because it's not Canon. Like... the post that had them all fired up was speculation about something we have receipts for. And a lot of people liked the idea. All they do is make the books look worse.

And the way they talk about Feyre vs. Nesta is like they think they're written by two different people. This isn't Harry Potter (fuck you Rowling) vs. Twilight (fuck you Meyers). I don't think Feyre gets a free pass to transform into a person of another race just cuz Nesta and Gwyn modelled their stuff after the Valkyries. I think both are bad and icky because the same author wrote both and clearly doesn't see how offensive that could be. I do, however, think that there's a difference between what Feyre did and the Blood Rite. Nesta, Gwyn and Emerie were kidnapped and forced into the Blood Rite. They didn't actually choose to.

Side note though: Valkyries are from Norse mythology. It does chap me that she couldn't use a mythology or create something new for her Illyrians to flesh out their culture. She just used a primarily white culture for her non-white character's culture.

Sorry to rant about that. It just irked me.

I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would ship Feysand the way it's written in Canon. I can with 100% confidence say I've never written a romance that involved anyone SAing anyone. Hell, I don't feature SA at all really. I don't want it in my fantasy. I want people to find peace and love in my books. Men have written enough SA in fantasy, it doesn't need any from me.

But like... if you look at their posts, the reason I don't like Feyre is because I wanted "my fav" to end up with Rhys. They can't fathom that I don't like Rhys at all. I don't like any of her men. They don't appeal to me at all. The only one I might’ve had any inkling of interest in is Kallias but I'm sure if we spent more than a handful of pages with him, I'd hate him too. I think she'd eventually change all of them regardless of appearance to something shallow and toxic.The Bat Boys specifically are boring to me. Their designs suck, their personalities suck and the way they treat their women sucks. Nothing I see in her books is what I would classify as love. Her books aren't about love. They're about sex with hot dudes. But you know what? Other books do romance, love and even just sex better.

I'm glad you blocked them. Just know, they still spy on us.

Thank you for your ask. I hope you're doing well.

[elegantwoes]

I love your responses to the deranged antis in your inbox (If you hate Sansa and her stans so much, you can just go your merry way avoiding her tag on tumblr, instead of sliding into the inbox of someone you know adores the character that you hate). I'm curious, what are your thoughts of HoTD and the Targ dynasty in general.

I am glad you are enjoying my ramblings, dear anon. When I started watching HOTD I was both cautious and tried my best to stay neutral on the feud and only wanted to watch the Targaryens mutually self destruct and laugh at both sides. However, since the show wanted the watcher to overly favor one side and the fandom was overwhelmingly team black plus deeply misogynistic towards Alicent I initially started to side with the green side purely out of spite, but eventually I genuinely became to love the characters. Unfortunately as my love for the characters grew the writing for the show started to decline at a rapid pace.

What was once barely tolerable became atrocious in a couple episodes (a rare record I may add. At least GOT was tolerable for a couple years). If you add the horrible interview of Sarah Hess (saying stupid shit like, “The peasants don’t matter.”) I knew it was a done matter. If that is your takeaway from a book that is pro-smallfolk and condemn both sides for focusing too much on birthright and not doing what matters the most: serving the people, then this show is no different from Game of Thrones, and the show runners are exactly like David and Dan. So in conclusion, the show is bad and I don’t want to watch it any further. Now granted there’s a chance I might not stay true that statement, because unfortunately I have a toxic relationship with HBO. They are like an abusive boyfriend: they promise to do better and once you go back to them, they revert back to how they once were. Let’s hope I stay strong this time.

As for my thoughts on the Targaryens in general. I don’t like them. Their way of thinking (i.e Targaryen exceptionalism, how they are supposedly closer to gods than men, their refusal to ‘breed with lesser men’) is too racist to my liking. Secondly unlike the First men, Andals, and the Rhyonar, they have never managed to assimilate to the culture and supplant their roots (which is to be expected because dragons can’t plant trees) and because of that Westeros can hardly be considered home for them. It’s for this reason they were deposed so easily. GRRM has promised that one great house would come to an end, and Targaryen (who are so villain coded) are the most likely one to die out. Conclusion: they suck.

[dotthings]

And now some venting about way too many accounts from the destiel lane on stan twitter. I know some of those viewpoints exist here as well but tumblr culture seems to be calmer and more willing to listen about it. And less ubiquitous and easier to avoid. There's also a lot less hostility towards positive Destiel shippers here.

Like, there's the actual gloating from bitter shippers, hoping Destiel positive talk is finally dead and FINALLY maybe we'll listen and fall in line with their misery litany of bitterness at last. Becomes impossible to discern between that and anti-Destiels.

Bitter shippers who just won't stop hating on Destiel positive and Jensen positive Destiel shippers and screeching how we all need to stop. No I'm not going to stop. YOU stop.

Bitter shippers who stick their heads in the sand about how the Destiel shippers they hate were proven right again and again

Bitter shippers who won't cease stomping up on and down on Jensen's neck like he's their posable Ken Doll and if he doesn't word things exactly how they want to hear, they snap and turn on him again, and again, and again

Bitter shippers who are getting no joy from spn any more and yet somehow keep hanging around on stan twitter to tweet bitter things designed to be hostile to any Destiel shippers who are enjoying things and who aren't actually against our own ship and who don't invalidate our own readings

Bitter shippers who have put the entirety of the burden of representation onto Destiel and have been putting down the inclusive new characters on TW and implying that anyone who supports the prequel is willing to eat dirt or is a suck-up

And the utterly invalidating "jokes" they think is so funny. Or the way they keep blaming the writers who were writing Destiel. Somehow the writers didn't write things...that...are in scripts. That's a neat trick.

And what do they think happens now, that they can play thought police at any Destiel shippers who continue to see Dean as bi and in love with Cas? Because, guess what, we have every right to do so and Jensen isn't the one being a dirtrag trying to tell us how to see Dean or Destiel, but some supposed shippers are now trying to dictate that, bitterly, because they didn't like how Jensen worded things so everybody else has to abandon our view of the ship. Meanwhile Jensen said nothing to invalidate anyone's perspective.

This was a truly excessive amount of drama, from ALL lanes on stan twitter, over statements from Jensen that were nuanced, complex, and at their core, really beautiful statements affirming how deeply Dean loves Cas. Every lane needs to get more respectful about interpretations, for Jensen and for Destiel shippers and for how fiction actually fudging works. Jensen gets it, why don't you.

[sometimesrosy]

God, people can be so hateful. I did the HUGE mistake on going on twitter the other day (during con, basically), and i was disgusted. Like, i KNOW that some bellarke shippers are trash, but not ALL of us are like that. I got so MAD when i read that clx shippers (same thing for them, not all of them are trash) think that we watch the show just for canon b/c and talk shit about the actors for giving us “fake hope”. BUT didn’t they try to cancel the show after lxa died OR just stop watching the (1

show after that?(Kind of since they’re still being annoying on social media). e.g., i didn’t like clxa but not for that i went psycho and tried to sabotage the show. I love the cast, the show, beliza (bc seeing that they are bff just melts my heart)and bellarke, but i will stay even if my fav ship don’t become canon bc this show is so good and original. (I’m obsessed with it basically). (2

I’m sorry for me venting on you but i got so irritated and you’re just a wonderful sunshine that radiate positivity so, god bless YOU. (3

I forgot to add [b/cho] when i said “i didn’t like clx but not for that i went psycho ecc…” I’m just respectful and i always expect people to be the same. Sue my parent for raising me good. (4

Well CLs have no right to criticize BC when BC act like CLs. The Blorkes are EXACTLY like the CLs with less actual cause, because Bellarke is actually canon and happening, and CL actually died. Do you still have hope? We still breathing. We’re literally still breathing and Bellarke is actively happening and they don’t even NOTICE? What TERRIBLE shippers they are. They must not actually ship Bellarke or be fans of The 100 AT ALL. That’s why I call them Blorkes now, because they aren’t shipping Bellarke at all, or they’d see how much canon bellarke we got in season 5.

The Blorke Antis are infuriating. And they deserve to be criticized. But they aren’t fans of Bellarke in canon, only in their fanon. Which is the same for many CLs, who made up their own Lxa Show, only slightly related to the story on screen, and then were devastated when The 100 didn’t follow The Lxa Show. I don’t interact with CLs and haven’t since season 3, and it’s better that way. And now I don’t interact with Blorkes since season 5, and I’m finding it better that way, too.

The truth is, fandom is vulnerable to people becoming antagonistic, cruel, cliquish, vicious, self centered, over entitled, and harassing. This is part of fandom culture. And it doesn’t matter WHAT you ship, you have to be careful that you yourself are not doing it. Because when people come at you and call you horrible names for talking about something you love, something that hurts you, or something you don’t like, the you get defensive and start attacking back. 

This is one of the reasons I am so against the anti/stan mentality. Because it sets us up as enemies inherently, and equates not liking something or someone with that thing or person or character being EVIL, bad or whatever designation they’ve assigned it as impure. 

Shipping is a way to engage with a story, and it’s awesome! But it is not the only way to engage and it is not the most important way. But fandom tries to force their ships and faves and headcanons down the throats of the rest of the fandom. They don’t seem to be able to STAND when someone just enjoys something, if it’s not what they enjoy, so they try to ruin the joy. 

to tell the truth, if you think i’m this full of sunshine and radiate positivity then i’m doing a good job keeping my anger in check, because I am full of rage and bitterness towards fandom in general, the 100 fandom in particular, and the blorkes personally. Like, personally. I know who you all are, and I’ve been talking to you for 3 years, and THIS is what you come up with? I am DEEPLY disappointed in the blorke ignorance, cruelty, self centeredness, and entitlement. Disgusted. 

And the wisest thing is to stay away entirely from fandom twitter. and tumblr tags aren’t much better. Create your internet bubble. Cull your connections. Unfollow, block, mute, filter as needed. 

Having nothing to do with the anti fandoms is the best way to enjoy the show and ship you love. 

[incarnateirony]

I've been generally... impressed with growth I've seen in the base line of the SPN fandom's dialogue, despite my complaints at certain groups and flares.

When I first hopped off the fence I had watched SPN fandom on for years, even THAT was many years ago.

Back then, this fandom denied a great many things. They refused some things you might laugh at now. The global decline of ratings, for example. Jared stans denied that loudly when they tried to blame Misha for "low ratings", but the second their show crash they tried to use it (incorrectly in a nonapplicable way). Scripts I leaked. Endings I uh. Specced. Maybe even again got mocked for speccing by would be ITKers like Pat, until Dabb confirmed it.

Like. My life is a cycle of posting things and some asshole arguing with me and brushing the results under the rug but

Fandom mostly--MOSTLY--seems to get it. Discourse is opening about corporate structures and trades and potential influences. People are sending good asks, and one not driven purely by a single ship, though sometimes how that ship interplays with this grander media universe.

Which was always kinda the whole point.

I think Tess said it best. (For those that don't know, she was a professional reviewer assigned an episode 300 review so power watched the show for research for the article while livetweeting)

...and it's true.

And I look to the current crowds.

From Amazon, an inbound flow of mature viewership simply discussing the canon that is, laughing off the anti takes this fandom let itself get sucked into for years. They're used to adult storytelling. Whats's canon is canon. Not what personally fulfills our representational wants is canon. Just like. What's canon is canon. Many things it is, but queerbait it isn't.

SPN and CW fandom arguments exist in a bubble, often with young audiences convinced of what "queerbait" means divorced from actual academia, and even more criminal older people with their own agendas, sometimes even dog whistles, sending them out and blinding them so deeply that a clutch of largely 20 year old women feel entitled to even harass, attack, or wish failure on middle aged queer men for not writing middle aged queer men the way 20 year old women wanted, and didn't fight "hard enough" for them, the 20 year old women scream as they crack the whip at creators in shit situations.

But then to act SO GODDAMN SMUG because all your twitter friends believe the same thing with equally shallow effort, convincing yourselves it's progressive, and just LECTURING people looking up from like. Their actual LGBTQ histories, discussions, communities, going "genuinely, what the fuck is wrong with you, shut up"

But I think this flare of QUEERBAIT is a sort of culture shock response. These people are VERY CONFUSED. SPN fandom has let these poor definitions, poor applications, and absolutely terrible academic or historic lgbtq media knowledge be normalized in a sort of "all opinions about how media should work are equal", and it's not. Because like [gestures at my wall trying to keep people from getting lost in the WBD merger]

They want to put that point back in. SPN's audience is suddenly maturing, and being TREATED by this new Amazon audience LIKE The Boys or Mad Men in discussion. And soon, eventually, HBO too.

It seems to be MOSTLY, but not exclusively, younger people, that deeply crave a simple point or objective to fight towards, something you can take a hammer to or throw a molotov through a window and fix, and I'm sorry, part of growing up in the LGBTQ community is realizing it's never, ever that simple, and figuring out sometimes abstract or bizarre compensation methods to fight against our marginalized status without stepping on each other's feet.

So let's make sure we're not cracking the whip on people for, say, performing their own representation demographic well for us while snapped in shackles with a shock collar. Jesus christ.

And yeah, if you missed it, another Queerbait Scholar came out. Trotted out the normal fandom talking points. Tried to declare about degrees and education, pasted a citation

...gave away they've never done research in their life, as the academic paper they cited was a small piece that mapped out argued definitions and, ultimately, disassembled her argument piece by piece about the damages that come with bad faith readings like hers, with a fairly strong conclusion that in no upside down world could be conveyed as even lightly compatible with her point. Like literally, it's very clear she googled keywords trying to force a biased result, read a google truncation, and hit Ctrl+F without reading any surrounding content, because it was like a dissertation DESIGNED to end her.

And we've let this kind of bullshit drive us a while.

I'm glad. I'm glad a lot of people have turned around, but I'm also quite sad that there's others just seeming to double down and increase their violence against LGBTQ content and creators to compensate, screaming "I'M FIGHTING FOR YOU" while mentally pummeling the fuck out of those creators for trying.

I can't emphasize this enough. For all the pomp of her, the people she was trying to downtalk at in huge Dunning-Kruger in a neon lit exhibit display--everyone else read what she cited. She didn't, as was evident by her citing it.

The labor of YOUR ignorance already isn't OURS to deal with to begin with, but to attach that to INTENTIONAL ignorance, the REFUSAL to listen even when redirected to READ ONES OWN CITATION as actually being COUNTER to your argument--that's BEYOND the pall. That's not even just like, anti-intellectual. It's just being a dishonest piece of shit trying to pitch your personal wants beyond active warriors IN the community. Jesus what the fuck? If your best attempted google fu of no doubt suggestive string words only found a paper telling you that you're wrong, maybe you should listen to the elders that have been telling you to STOP ATTACKING QUEER CREATORS STUCK IN LIMITED SITUATIONS FOR YEARS. But of course, they double down instead, because that avoids having to face the impact of their PAST behavior then. (Or maybe it's just addiction to those sweet, sweet likes and trying to grab them before the claim's popularity goes entirely extinct.)

There's a desire for simplicity, but it's not there guys. Let me emphasize. Almost any single scholarly piece on this that ISN'T a self published piece of nonsense someone points at their own work on? Is gonna say the same thing. The same thing has been said for decades. Berens argued the same in 2003. This isn't new. Yall backwards

Whatever this impregnable wall of bitterness impervious to realities from public common knowledge to their own citations is, it's not progress. It looks alien from the outside, even in actual academic LGBTQ media discussions. You normalized it in a bubble.

The fight for progress is hard and complex and probably kind of disorienting and scary when you're new. There's oppression from above and limitations from within and DECADES of complicated discourse of where moral responsibility lies in support of the content despite shortcomings

None of this, I mean absolutely NONE OF THIS is new. It's a highly explored, delicate and nuanced conversation held for decades--less with changed popular opinion, and more with importance of new scopes like the internet or social media.

But somehow we have one cluster of like a dozen people in each CW teen scifish fandom that absolutely trained themselves into believing their unbridled unforgiving scorched earth bitter hell is "THE" LGBTQ way. Rather than one the community has called destructive or limiting to us in some form, for decades.

You don't get to redefine things and change how it works when you don't even UNDERSTAND how it works. You definitely don't get to pretend it's all the other decades more immersed activists in and WELL BEYOND SPN FANDOM that have it fucked up and YOU TEN are the right ones. Jesus

I'm tired of these perpetual aggressions against queer content and creators from SUPPOSED supporters that are VERY SRS ABOUT REP but can't even read the ABSTRACT or scroll to the CONCLUSION before deciding to cite a piece from a google truncation.

I'm genuinely starting to think there's some terfy ass radfem dogwhistling going on consciously from that corner at this point. There's a level of shamelessness that, even when confronted with their own source telling them they were wrong, they double down.

Because if a bunch of 20 year old women decide to tell a bunch of 40 year old queer men how to write 40 year old queer men to the point of encouraging SPITE AND HARASSMENT, that's it. You're not fighting for the 40 year old queer men. Stop pretending you are. If you wanna say you hate gay men or got issues with them then like, get out and go until you take care of that shit. Because this is looking like a very gay creative room, and we don't need bad faith actors tearing them apart pretending it's as an Ally.

If your wish ultimately boils down to wishing failures on a predominantly LGBTQ creative team, I don't care what you gift wrap it in, it's still shit. You're not an ally or friend in this fight.

Can't believe this fandom hears shit like "real activism takes education and nuanced engagement, not quick responses and hammers, not all moments are portland riots resisting the cops, we wouldn't be here that way; use words correctly, so we can actually address the issues we're facing, actually identifying queerbait, or other issues in the system, because if we know what the problems are each to their own we can start addressing them--to support creatives while fighting back against abusive corporations without hurting those creatives. We can't if we just throw 'everything I don't like or wasn't enough for me' in the same fucking bin. And nobody can even pretend the demand for the right to do so services any action. Their intent isn't action. It's noise.'" and pretends these are irrational or unfair statements.

They're ripping apart the people actually taking action.

For the last SEVERAL years whatever Supernatural fandom has had hasn't even remotely looked like real world activism in representation expansion discussions. It looks like a bunch of people who grew up trained in a normalized thunderdome of bad fandom talking points they don't know better than which have moved the entire fucking talking centers off into another fucking solar system from most of the world. It's bloodsport posing as activism, addiction to conflict rather than discussion of advancement, progress, tactics, or celebrating the content they DO manage to make in a warped system.

[wendytestabrat]

what cartman loves about kyle the most

ok so there’s like prob 4738299292 reasons why and i’m not gonna get into it all rn but the scene that revealed it the most like the #1 reason why cartman likes kyle to me was in imaginationland pt 2 when cartman was saving kyle’s life so he could suck his balls LOL and he’s like “KAHL YOU NEVER WALKED AWAY FROM ANYTHING IN YOUR LIFE NOW FIGHT!” that revealed EVERYTHING. that’s why cartman loves kyle. he loves him for his persistence, tenacity, passion, & stubbornness (all qualities cartman has as well!) when kyle believes in something or wants to do something there’s rlly no stopping him or changing his mind and even tho a lot of the shit kyle does or stands up for will be him going against cartman or things cartman disagrees with, it’s still something cartman can respect about kyle. i mean that’s why cartman & kyle make great allies when they do come together on something. they’re both good at planning and coming up with ideas for shit. and stan & kenny def don’t have those qualities as much as cartman & kyle do, like what makes cartman & kyle different is they never rlly give up and they know how to see something through till the end which is why they work better together. a great example tho was in “faith hilling” when cartman & kyle were the only ones who were still trying to keep faith hilling alive but then stan and kenny gave up to do taylor swifting instead. something else i used to theorize even tho i totally turned out to be right about this bc cartman became a rabbi in the future, is that cartman also LIKES kyle for his juddaism rather than hates it lol. say what u want but i find it hard to believe cartman is rlly anti-semitic, he just likes to shit on jews specifically bc it annoys kyle and he’s obsessed with kyle LOL. and there have been sooo many scenes where it’s like cartman has seemed FASCINATED with jewish culture. and when cartman stereotypes jews and shits on kyle and stuff literally all the insults he makes about kyle for being a jew, like how he’ll say kyle is greedy and a backstabbing liar and shit are literally all qualities cartman has himself…so like?? LOL it would make way more sense that cartman looks up to kyle for being a jew since, according to cartman, jews have all these qualities he loves and tries to possess himself since cartman loves being a manipulative cunt. also remember in the episode “fishsticks” when cartman literally went up to kyle and was like “hey kahl can u teach me some jew defensive moves?” LOL

[antiloreolympus]

10 Anti LO Asks

1. I personally would be more willing to excuse the constant art mistakes and issues in LO if it was actually just Rachel doing it all herself. The fact the reality is actually her only sketching it out at best while her team of 4-5 people do the actual art is just inexcusable. The biggest selling point about it too is it's supposed to have great art, so why can't it even keep basic features correct? This is just ridiculous. How do you get more people working on it and it's only worse for it?

2. I think its PJO that said Gods can easily change how they appear (PJO Aphrodite for example looks how the viewer finds attractive, while PJO Persephone's looks change off the seasons) but that's all established and confirmed very early in the series and has in-universe explanations. LO has none of this minus "emotional hair" (???) so there is really no excuse Rachel & her 5+ person team can't even keep Hades' nose right. It's honestly a bit ridiculous how art issues are more frequent than not.

3. IDK why Rachel keeps pushing for Hera and Persephone to be the same person bc not only does that imply Hades wants Hera but is using Persephone to replace her, but Hera sucks?? She's an elitist jerk, she's racist against nymphs unless they're "one of the good ones" (🤢) she claims to be so loyal yet cheats on Zeus with his BROTHER, she neglects her kids to were her 8 year old has to act like an adult, she lies to her own sister, etc. Why would you want Persephone be ANYTHING like her?

4. About that thing about the kings using a fertility goddess (Gaia, Rhea) to gain power... did Rachel entirely miss that the kings themselves ARE fertility gods? Cronus is straight up an earth god, Uranus and Zeus are both sky gods (=rain)

5. sorry, no amount of "thats just the angle!" or "that's just the lighting!" can excuse rachel's piss poor character designing. the character's whole faces, bodies, and skin colors shouldn't change literally every other panel unless its copied and pasted the same panel, which even then theyre still often redrawn to look different and thus off model once again. There's no part of the story confirming their have fluid looks, so it looks even more ridiculous it can't keep even basic things on model.

6. You fools.  Clearly the more creepy and controlling he gets about Persephone the longer his nose grows. Why do you think he looks even more like a swordfish now? I’ve cracked the code. 

7. I’m not saying bad faith critique of LO doesn’t exist but I’m really disturbed over how the stans act like BIPOC readers, LGBTQ+ readers,  SA survivors, Greeks, etc critiquing it’s very real flaws and issues that are sold to literal children is just lumped under that same bad faith argument or “being an anti”. Like?? We’re not arguing about stupid ships, we’re critiquing how it sexualizes a girl that’s barely legal, a story that frames the poor as the real oppressors to the rich and powerful, a story that uses sexual assault to push a creepy, power imbalanced ship along, a comic that spits in the face of the culture and stories it’s butchering and profiting off of, a story that (I will hope unintentionally) has very real implications of racism and antisemitism, a story that frames a slave owner and potential groomer as the best man ever, a story that took a famous bisexual god and made him the abuser to a poor little straight girl, a story claiming to be feminist yet is deeply rooted in pushing misogynistic messages, and the list goes on and on. That’s not “anti” behavior, it’s being able to critically consume this media and not being blinded by marketing and the bright colors it can’t keep consistent. 

8. I feel so bad when I think about the fact I wasted all my time and energy into Lore Olympus fanart, fanfiction, fandom (discussions, theories and even arguing), compared to when I used to be in other fandoms. Like... League Of Legends fandom, yeah, that boring and ugly moba game, has made me feel much more fulfilled and welcomed, especially because of how many amazing story and world building related things they provide from time to time.

Yes, Smythe doesn't have much money to provide the fandom with interesting animations, or exclusive music videos or just basically anything other than doodles and memes and concept art... But still for some reason I feel so cheated. The amount of love and time I dedicated to Lore Olympus feels heavily one-sided.

Now it's a matter of time until another fandom will pull me in and I leave Lore Olympus behind for good. I just don't understand what kept me here so long. I suppose it's my need for closure is why I still stay. I just need to know how it ends because I don't want this whole time I wasted on this bad piece of media to be in vain. 

9. I think In trying to make the comic more “serious” Rachel seems to think adding more complicated plots and “twists” makes it better, but it really doesn’t. There’s nothing wrong with telling a simple story and that’s it, especially when the hymn is pretty straightforward in what to do with it. Idk why she thinks adding plots about Kronos, Leto, Eros, Daphne, Echo, AOW, etc would somehow improve a story about HxP getting together, yet here we are. 

10. Not only is Hera a Fertility Goddess despite Rachel's lack of world building, Hera also has a huge overlap with Zeus in terms of powers, such as herself being able to control the weather, cause storms, and crumble empires if she saw fit. There is a reason Zeus and Hera were paired and it wasn't just their for spicy romance, it was also the fact he was the strongest god and she was the strongest goddess. Rachel very purposely nuked Hera of her real power and still thinks she's "empowering" her!

[olderthannetfic]

The Phantom of the Opera fandom is going through it this week. There is a Google doc created and circulated by a white trans man which accuses dozens of artists and fic writers of being terfs, racists, and orientalists. One issue, aside from the inherently unethical nature of blacklists, is that the list includes trans fans, fans of color, many of whom are Asian. So there's this strange dynamic of a list that was supposedly written to protect fans who are from these communities that is actively them instead. And this racist dynamic of a white person calling POC racist, and Asian fans specifically orientalist.

I'd love your take on any angle of this. What are your thoughts on these kinds of block lists? Do they happen in other fandoms? Thoughts on the racial dynamic of this situation? Thanks!

--

Oof. Yes, I was thinking of saying something about this, but I hadn't gotten around to vetting posts for reblogging yet. When I first saw your post, it passed my sniff test, but I'm not very familiar with PotO fandom (Phandom? Hah! I thought that was a reference to Dan/Phil stans or Danny Phantom or something!), and I like to have a better grasp on what's going on before I reblog. I see more people have weighed in by now though.

My take is that this often happens with blacklists. I can't think of another exact parallel to this one off the top of my head (mostly because there are so many fandom wanks that the details get fuzzy), but every time I hear of a fandom blacklist something of this general type is wrong with it.

The sad reality is that the most vulnerable community members generally won't have time/confidence/assurance of their safety in a way that would make them likely to make a public one and spread it around. People with a lot of experience and perspective who have a good handle on what their group overall thinks is beyond the pale and who could reasonably speak for the whole group don't have time for petty shit like this either and are more aware of the downsides of a public list.

The sorts of people who spend their time on public blacklists are the opposite of the people you'd want to be making them. They're either chasing clout or they've gone off the deep end with "my ship/character is literally me, and when you write them wrong, you are literally committing crimes against me" lunacy.

It makes perfect, if horrible, sense that it would be a white person calling Asian fans orientalist. What we've seen time and time again is that outrage mobs come from a dominant culture. (So in English, in fanworks fandom, that's usually a US cultural context, even if many individual members aren't from the US themselves.) That's who has the numbers and the smug self-assurance of their holy righteousness.

It's very easy for a faker or a manipulator with bad intentions to imitate a Good Minority for this kind of mob. A Good Minority is scenically exotic and primitive and tells quaint stories about granny living in a hut or whatever other bullshit the listeners have internalized. A Good Minority doesn't like Bad Representation™, whether that's characters who were orientalist in their original form or badwrong kink or the wrong dude on top.

Unfortunately, actual members of whatever ethnicity or culture are rarely convenient stereotypes. It's a lot harder to get an outrage mob to care about them--or even to believe them about their identity--because they don't fit into some unconscious white savior or noble savage narrative.

It's like when "fujoshi"-hating fuckfaces whine about how m/m fanfic is bad rep but ignore that lots of cis gay men love stuff ten times more problematic and couldn't care less about AFABs' art and its supposed appropriativeness.

Masturbatory obsession with "authenticity" represses actual authenticity in favor of respectability politics and stereotypes

Among other reasons this is so is that minority members who disagree with the clout-chaser's version of things are a threat to their power. They're always first on the chopping block. We saw it in TOG. It's no surprise it's there in PotO.

Fake anti-racist activism doesn't incidentally harass POC: that's intentionally one of its main applications.

Public blacklists are grudgewank, this time and every time. The creep who made it sucks, but as with the situation in TOG fandom, it seems to me that a lot of the harm is coming from useful idiots.

If more fans would remain skeptical and make up their own damn minds about each person they block, these bullies wouldn't have such power.

Trying to be a better person is great. It's not an excuse for outsourcing your critical thinking. If we would stop reaching for easy answers to be Guaranteed Not Orientalist or whateverthefuck, we wouldn't fall for these transparent power grabs.