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gingermintpepper · 6 days

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As usual I read your tags always and so you said Apollo did not ask for resurrection of Asclepius and Hyacinthus so i just wanted to share this. About Asclepius death I read it on theoi.com, that earlier authors don't make him resurrect as a god but that's a later development mentioned only by Roman authors like Cicero, Hyginus and Ovid. But still Apollo has a role in Ovid's version

Ovid, Fasti 6. 735 ff (trans.Boyle) (Roman poetry C1st B.C. to C1st A.D.) : Clymenus [Haides] and Clotho resent the threads of life respun and death's royal rights diminished. Jove [Zeus] feared the precedent and aimed his thunderbolt at the man who employed excessive art. Phoebus [Apollon], you whined. He is a god; smile at your father, who, for your sake, undoes his prohibitions [i.e. when he obtains immortality for Asklepios].

So here it is actually because of Apollo the decision was taken to resurrect him as god. And with Hyacinthus, I don't think I've read about Artemis playing the primary role. I know in Sparta there was a picture of Artemis, Athena and Aphrodite carrying Hyacinthus and his sister to heaven.

This is not on theoi.com but I saw on Tumblr it's from Dionysiaca by Nonnus

Second, my lord Oiagros wove a winding lay, as the father of Orpheus who has the Muse his boon companion. Only a couple of verses he sang, a ditty of Phoibos, clearspoken in few words after some Amyclaian style: Apollo brought to life again his longhaired Hyacinthos: Staphylos will be made to live for aye by Dionysos.

So since he is singing inspired by amyclean stories it probably means in that place it was believed Apollo was the one to bring back his lover to life.

Apollo as god of order was very important so i think it shows how special these people (and admetus too) were to him that he decided to go against the order for them 🥺

ANON!! Shakes you like a bottle of ramune!! BELOVED ANON!!!!! I'm littering your face with kisses, I'm anointing you with olive oil and honey - you absolutely made my night with this because, not only did I get the pure serotonin shot of having someone interact with my tags (yippee, wahoo!!) I also got to have that wonderful feeling of "oh wow, have I misunderstood something that was integral to my understanding of this myth/figure this whole time or is this a case of interpretational differences?" which is imo vital for my aims and interests as someone who enjoys mythological content and literature.

I'll preface my response with this: Hyacinthus is by far the hardest of these to get accounts for because his revival itself, as you very astutely point out, is generally accounted for in painting/ritual format which muddies the waters on who interceded for what. I wasn't actually familiar with that passage from the Argonautica - and certainly didn't remember it so thank you very much for bringing it to my attention!

That said, what I've come to understand, both about Hyacinthus and about Asclepius is that in the accounts of their deaths, Apollo's position is startlingly clear.

For Hyacinthus, it is established time and again that Apollo would have sacrificed everything for him - his status, his power, his very own immortality and divinity. Ovid writes that Apollo would have installed him as a god if only he had the time:

(Ovid. Metamorphoses. Book X. trans. Johnston)

Many other writers too speak of how Apollo abandoned his lyre and his seat at Delphi to spend his days with Hyacinthus, but they also all agree that when it came to his death - he was powerless. Ovid gives that graphic account of Apollo's desperation as he tries all his healing arts to save him to no avail:

(Ovid, Metamorphoses Book X. Apollo me boy, methinks him dead. trans Johnston)

Bion, in one of his fragments, writes that Apollo was "dumb" upon seeing Hyacinthus' agony:

(Bion, The Bucolic Poets. Fragment XI. trans Edmonds)

Even Nonnus in the Dionysiaca speaks constantly of Apollo's helplessness in the face of Hyacinthus' fate where he writes that the god still shivers if a westward wind blows upon an iris:

and when Zephyros breathed through the flowery garden, Apollo turned a quick eye upon his young darling, his yearning never satisfied; if he saw the plant beaten by the breezes, he remembered the quoit, and trembled for fear the wind, so jealous once about the boy, might hate him even in a leaf...

(Nonnus, Dionysiaca, Book 3. trans Rouse)

And the point here is just that - Apollo, at least as far as I've read, cannot avert someone's death. He simply can't. Once they're already dead - once Fate has cut their string - all Apollo's power is gone and he can do nothing no matter how much he wants to. And this is, as far as I know, supported with the accounts of Asclepius as well!

Since you specifically brought up Ovid's account, I'll also stick only to Ovid's account but in Metamorphoses when we get Ovid's version of Coronis' demise, he writes that Apollo intensely and immediately regrets slaughtering Coronis. He regrets it so intensely that he, like he does with Hyacinthus, does his best to resuscitate her:

(Ovid, Metamorphoses Book Two. Apollo's regret)

And like Hyacinthus, when it becomes clear that what has happened cannot be undone, Apollo wails:

(Ovid, Metamorphoses Book Two. Apollo wept.)

Unlike his mother, Asclepius in her womb had not yet died and so, with the last of Apollo's strength, he does manage, at least, to save him.

(Ovid, Metamorphoses Book Two. Apollo puts the 'tearing out' in Asclepius.)

But it goes further than even that because Ocyrhoe, Chiron's daughter, a prophetess who unduly gained the ability to directly proclaim the secrets of the Fates, upon seeing the baby Asclepius, immediately prophesies his glory, his inevitable death and then his fated ascension:

(Ovid. Metamorphoses, Book Two. Ocyrhoe's prophecy. trans Johnston)

Before she too succumbs to her hubris and is transformed by the Fates into a horse so she can no longer speak secrets that aren't hers to share.

These things ultimately are important because it establishes two very important things: 1) Apollo can't do anything in the face of the ultimate Fate of mortals, which is, of course, death and 2) even when Apollo is Actively Devastated, regretful, yearning, mournful, guilty or some unholy combination of all of the above, when someone is dead, he accepts that they are gone. Even if he is devastated by it, even if he'll cry all the rest of his days about it - if they're dead? Apollo lets them go. In Fasti, when Zeus brings Asclepius back, he does not say Apollo asked him to - Zeus, or well, in this case Jove, brings Asclepius back because he wants Apollo to stop being mad at him.

(Ovid, Fasti VI. Apollo please come home your father misses you. trans. A.S Kline)

Even Boyle's translation which you used above in your findings hints that Zeus made Asclepius a god because he wanted Apollo to stop grieving. (i.e 'smile at your father', 'for your sake [he] undoes his prohibitions')

And like, Apollo was deeply upset by Asclepius' death - apart from killing the Cyclops in anger, in book 4 of the Argonautica, Apollonius writes that the Celts believe the stream of Eridanus to be the tears Apollo shed over the death of Asclepius when he left for Hyperborea after being chastised by Zeus for killing his Cyclops:

But the Celts have attached this story to them, that these are the tears of Leto's son, Apollo, that are borne along by the eddies, the countless tears that he shed aforetime when he came to the sacred race of the Hyperboreans and left shining heaven at the chiding of his father, being in wrath concerning his son whom divine Coronis bare in bright Lacereia at the mouth of Amyrus.

It all paints a very clear picture to me. Apollo did not ask for either of them to be brought back. Though bringing them back certainly pleased and delighted him, they are actions of other gods who are moved by Apollo's grief and mourning and seek to mollify him. Him not asking doesn't mean he didn't want them back which I think is a very important distinction by the by, but it simply means that Apollo knows the natural order of things and, even if it hurts, he isn't going to press his luck about it.

Which, of course, brings us to Admetus. And I'm really not going to overcomplicate this, Admetus is different because, very vitally, Admetus is not dead. Apollo can't do a thing once Fate has been carried out and Death has claimed a mortal but you know what he absolutely can do? Bargain like hell with the Fates before that point of inevitability. And that's what he does, ultimately for Admetus and Alcestis. He sought to prolong Admetus' life, not revive him from death or absolve him from death altogether and even after getting the Fates drunk, he's still only able to organise a sacrifice - a life for a life - something completely contingent on whether some other mortal would be willing to die in Admetus' place and not at all controllable by Apollo's own power.

All of these things, I think come back to that point you made - that Apollo's place as a god of order is very important and therefore these people are very special to him if it means he's willing to go against that order but, I also wish to challenge that opinion if you'd let me. Apollo's place as a god of order is very important and therefore, I would argue, that it is even more important that it is shown that he does not break the divine order, especially for the people that mean the most to him. The original context of my comments which started this conversation were on this lovely, lovely post by @hyacinthusmemorial which contemplated upon Asclepius from the perspective of an Emergency Medical personnel and included, in their tags, the very poignant lines "there's something about Apollo letting go when Asclepius couldn't that eats my heart away" and "you do what you can, you do your best, but you don't ever reach too far" and I think that's perfectly embodied with the Apollo-Asclepius dichotomy. Apollo grieves. He wails, he cries, he does his best each and every time to save that which is precious to him but he does not curse their nature, he does not resent that they are human and ultimately, he accepts that that which is mortal must inevitably die. There is nothing that so saliently proves that those who uphold rules are also their most staunch followers - if Apollo wants to delight in his place as Fate's mouthpiece, he cannot undo Fate. And, if even the god of healing and order himself cannot undo death, what right does Asclepius, mortal as he is, talented as he is, have to disrespect it?

The beauty of these stories isn't that Apollo loved them enough to bring them back. The beauty is that Apollo loved them enough to let them go.

#this is such a long ass post oh my god #ginger answers asks #This totally got away from me but I AM PASSIONATE ABOUT THIS AAAA #Anon beloved anon I hope you don't take this as me shutting you down or anything because that really isn't what I'm trying to do #I'm definitely going to dig more into the exactness of 'who petitioned for Hyacinthus to be revived actually?"#I always stuck to the belief that it was Artemis because of the depictions of his revival + his procession is usually devoid of Apollo #I know some renaissance paintings have him and Apollo reuniting but that's usually In The Heavens y'know #I genuinely couldn't think of any accounts that have Apollo Asking for anyone to be revived #Apollo does intercede sometimes but that's usually for immortals like Prometheus #Or even when he's left to preside over Zagreus' revival and repair in orphic tradition #Concerning Asclepius there's like a ton to talk about tbh #There's the fact that in some writings (in quite a lot actually) the reason Asclepius was killed wasn't necessarily that he brought someone #back - it was that he accepted money for it #Pindar wrote about it and Plato talks about how if Asclepius really did accept gold for a miracle then he was never a son of Apollo #It's a whole thing really #I think it's very important that it's Asclepius in his mortal folly that tests the boundaries of life and death tbh #The romanticisation of going to any length to bring back a loved one is nice and all #But sometimes the kindest and most lovely thing you can do for someone is to accept it #Just accept that they're gone - accept that there was nothing that could be done and even if the grief is heavy - keep living #Maybe we won't all get our lost loves back #But there are definitely always more people worth loving if you just live long enough to find them #apollo #asclepius #zeus #admetus #greek mythology #ovid #oh my god so much ovid #hyacinthus #coronis

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autisticwizardwritings · 1 year

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HI HI HI HI HI :D

Can i get a total drama request about the contestants meeting Chris’ niece/nephew(gender neutral tho) preferably for world tour but any are good :)

Thamk you!!! :3

(Wasn't sure if you wanted younger, same age, or older, so I'm doing all three. If you want ALL of them, tell me! I just did these 3 for now since they're the only new appearances in World Tour, but I'd be happy to write more of the cast! I say it at the end too, but if you want this written in a proper paragraph style too I'd be more than happy to try to do so, just let me know!!)

Probably OOC 💔

Alejandro, Sierra, and Blaineley meeting Chris’s niece/nephew (no pronouns mentioned) (gn)

Younger (8-12)

Alejandro:

Extremely confused

Also fairly concerned

Why would Chris bring his own niece/nephew on this show at such a young age?

Even if they aren't competing. Should they really be seeing this sort of thing?

After finding out you're not part of the competition, he relaxes a little bit.

Apparently you're here because your mom/dad had to go on some big work trip, and since you were so young, you couldn't be left alone for that long.

Convinced that your parents don't watch the show, because no responsible parent would allow their child in that

Probably tries to talk to you, to get to know you.

Maybe even ends up seeing you as some sort of sibling after a while.

Will defend you if anyone else (*cough* Duncan *cough*) decides to be an asshole

Genuinely cares about you.

How can someone so sweet be related to *that?*

If you're a trouble child however

Makes sense how you're related to Chris

Still makes an effort to be nice to you considering you're only a child

Little minds are influenced by family, they can't help it.

Does tend to keep his distance more though

Probably pulled his hair at some point and that was it for him

Always ponytails it if you're there now.

Either way, if you get hurt somehow, he'd help.

Again, you're only little.

Even if you're 12.

A little less worried in that case, since you're old enough to kinda look out for yourself

But still makes sure you're alright.

Sierra:

She already knew of your existence.

Found your mom's Facebook page for info on Chris

Found you there too

Doesn't question the fact that you're here

Immediately wants to become friends with you

Probably smothers you with hugs

Suuuuper friendly

Constantly saying stuff like "Chris your niece/nephew is so sweet" even if you're basically the devil himself

"They could do no wrong ♡"

She's doing it because she genuinely thinks this, but also partially because she wants some "brownie points" or whatever the fuck they're called

Also trying to prove to Cody that she can "be a good mom."

He apologizes for her

If she wins a reward challenge, she'll 100% share whatever it is with you if it's child friendly

Even if you're getting the same good food as your uncle

Will make you dolls out of anything she can

And will want to play with them with you

Blaineley:

A child? Really?

What was Chris thinking?

No one wants to see a child on a show like this

Not to mention the grubby little hands

Doesn't want anything to do with you

Or she makes it seem like that, anyways.

If you get time where it's just the two of you, she's actually surprisingly nice.

Genuinely good with kids

Treats you like her own child

As soon as someone walks in she's back on the other side of the room glaring at you

Will deny this until she dies

If she finds out the fans like you

Then she starts acting all nice and buddy-buddy on camera too

Not very genuine though

It's just like that when she knows she won't get poked fun of for it

Same age as��(still younger than Blaineley)

Alejandro:

Couldn't really care less tbh

Another contestant

Another obstacle

For now

Still makes the effort to talk to you, to make you like him

Like he does with everyone there

The more allies the better right?

May possible try to woo you

With the idea in mind to get you eliminated

There's a possibility he does come to genuinely like you over time

But he'd never admit that

(Platonically or romantically depends on how you wanna read this)

Keeps you around for a little while after

Really not a fan of you at first though

Mainly because you're related to Chris

Who wouldn't?

With the reputation that man has, he's got every right to assume you're like he is

Hopefully that's wrong

If it is? Like I said, definitely starts to genuinely care for you

Actually tries to befriend you

Not just an alliance

Not just for a scheme

Maybe a little schemey

But not only for that.

If you ARE like Chris?

Not a fan of you then.

The whole robot thing hasn't happened yet since this is World Tour

But even then

He knows what an ass Chris is

That's an understatement

Really doesn't like you that much

But he still makes the effort to "befriend" you

Just to get rid of you, of course.

(Cannot write for this man to save my life, sorry if this is absolute dogshit)

Sierra:

Again, already knew about you.

Very excited to meet you, too!

She's the self proclaimed Total Drama Superfan, she HAS to know everything about you!!

Talks your ears off

All with good intention of course

She is absolutely ECSTATIC

You know in those cartoons where they shake someone's hand extremely excited and they just. It's almost violent

Yeah

Like that

That's how she shakes your hand when you're first brought on the show

I'd imagine you weren't brought immediately

Because like

Idk

I have no proper reason

Just for funsies

Before any proper eliminations

(But after Zeeke's)

But yeah!!

Her Cody obsession is… off-putting to say the least

You stay away from her, or at least keep your distance at first

She keeps talking to you, being all friendly

And if you're not too scared of her

Then you guys could become friends!

If you keep talking to her on your own without keeping any distance?

Makes every day so much better for her

Probably used to people being weirded out by her

So you actually talking to her because you GENUINELY LIKE her?

Bouncing off the WALLS

A friend! Yay!

Obviously Cody is still her #1 priority

But if you prove yourself, she miiiight let you in on a couple group hugs

Maybe

Blaineley:

Doesn't give a shit

Just like the younger version

But without the sweet bonding time

Doesn't like you very much

Might put on her fake little buddy-buddy act to stay on the good side of the media

Since you're probably "great for the ratings"

Being related to Chris and all

Idk what else to put for her sorry

Older than them (17-19) (STILL younger than Blaineley)

Alejandro:

..why are you here?

Probably assumes you're an intern at first

Or here to help run challenges/watch them

If you're in the challenges, he finds it to be unfair

You're older, probably taller and smarter, and he's CONVINCED Chris is giving you some sort of advantage

Still does his whole thing

But like. Not romantically.

If you're not in the competition?

VERY confused as to why you're here

You're not competing, but you're still back in the plane with them?

It just doesn't make sense to him

You're probably there to help out with challenges

If you're 17, and I'd assume still in high school, you might be there for volunteer hours or something

Since you're probably not getting paid either way /hj

Might attempt a flirting thing once or twice (if you're not older than 17)

Probably doesn't do shit though

Sierra:

Genuinely have no idea what to put here I'm just repeating myself

Again, already knows who you are

Basically just like the second one but more "respectful" (not really)

Blaineley would've probably been suuuuper boring (even worse than her "same age" (technically still younger) one) so I didn't include it.

I'm sorry this is so shit lmao I'll probably try redoing it as a proper paragraph written fic/one-shot instead of this. That'll probably make it better. If you want that, please tell me so I can start it soon!! xx

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stellarspecter · 11 months

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okay i don't know if the hyperfixation will hold long enough for me to actually write this but au where everything is the same but the waylon house is just a bit more structurally sound. max doesn't die and is like 'thanks for this guys, is that the whole party or?' and everyone just sort of looks at each other like. well we don't want to anger him so what can we say but yes. and so the nerds and max end up hanging out for a night in the waylon house and the worst thing that happens is grace chastity is tempted to have a beer for the first time (she doesn't though. but with max offering it's very hard for her to refuse. or focus lol) max keeps giving them weird backhanded compliments like 'wow you guys are way cooler than you look, how'd that happen' which is not the best but it's way better than being beat up for daring to be in his line of sight, so they'll take it.

so they all hang out for the night, max is like weirdly chill and friendly, eventually he leaves and they're left standing outside the waylon house like. ?? what the fuck??? did we just befriend max jagerman???? the nerds are still apprehensive considering pete still has a black eye, grace is still boiling with religious zeal and repressed lust, and steph still doesn't really like him, but they can't help but remember how he said that trying to prank him was the nicest thing someone's ever done for him. and that just can't be true, considering he's literally the star quarterback and the main character of hatchetfield high, but.... the fact that he felt like it enough says a lot, doesn't it?

so they decide to leave the prank footage to gather dust and figure this was probably the best outcome they could have hoped for. who knows what they'll walk into at school tomorrow? maybe max will become a friend.

#and he does :)#nerdy prudes must die #npmd spoilers #npmd #i just. the brainworms. they're in me #if anything it would just be a oneshot i'm not trying to rewrite the show or anything #but like yeah max joins the friend group :)#do you ever think about how genuinely touched he was that they basically made him his own haunted house?#that shit was exposure therapy and they didn't even know it #and like dear god 'this is the nicest thing anyone's ever done for me'??? lines to go crazy about forever!!!!#bc like he's popular he's a star everyone knows him but no one's nice to him? do we know anything about his family?#and like obviously he's an asshole so like yeah why would people be nice to him if he's such a dick #but like.... consider this: babygirl #he was really endearing in that minute between being pranked and dying ok?#he was like a totally different person the minute the social pressure was gone #ok ok enough tag rambling. if enough people want this i will actually write it #*speaks

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amethystpath-writes · 1 year

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Could you do something with team having to lock up stoic team member. They expect him to be fine and they don't want him going on a particularly dangerous mission and getting hurt further. They don't expect him to spiral into panick behind locked doors and are guilt-ridden when they return.

He's Gone

NOT A PR0MPT

The mission went flawlessly; Team anticipated every backfire at Villain's base: alarm systems, security cameras, standing guards, Villain. They avoided each almost perfectly, which was a surprise to them. As confident as they felt, it was their first mission without Leader. After seeing the state he was in, it was easy to say the team was terrified; it aided their thorough preparation, to say the least.

There was no ease in the thought of escaping, but the Team felt better once they were on their way to base. Leader was there, and he would be so proud of them for orchestrating this mission on their own, and for carrying it out. They had all they needed to defeat Villain. All the trauma Leader had gone through could be laid to rest.

Arriving to the base, everything seemed normal. Of course, Leader had been left in the medical room, but they were sure he had ventured out.

Walking into the kitchen, they noticed otherwise. There was a cake in the fridge they had left for Leader, when he was ready to leave his bed. It was a celebratory cake, for Leader's return.

"Do you think he's still asleep?" Hero asked.

"Could be. He was in pretty rough shape when we left him. He must have taken the painkillers we left for the wounds." Other Hero shrugged it off, a little less concerned than she probably should have been.

Hero put a finger to her lips. Just on the way home, she had chewed every nail down to the quick. "I think we should check on him."

"You regret leaving him alone, don't you?" Other Hero sighed. "He said he would be fine. We were right to trust him; it's what he would have wanted-"

"But he was wrong," Hero argued.

"We don't know that yet."

But Hero did know. Otherwise, Leader would have been out here. He would have dove into the cake and hugged Hero and Other Hero when they walked through the door. Then, he would have offered a dinner with a team briefing. The house shouldn't have been this silent.

As Hero made her way to the medical room, she felt her palms sweating. "Leader? Leader, are you in here?" She didn't wait to open the door, and as she did, she drew in a quick breath. Her eyes burned with tears. "Leader, oh my god. Other Hero, come here- hurry!"

Leader was crumpled against the wall, clothes torn at the seams, skin scratched in frantic, zig-zagging lines- Hero couldn't believe her eyes. "Leader, talk to me, okay? What's going on? What happened?"

Of course, Leader was in no fit shape to respond.

"I thought you were dead. I thought you were dead. I killed you. I let you go by yourselves. You were dead. You were dead."

"Leader, I'm here! We're- we're both here. Other Hero, tell him you're here." And they did. They repeated it over and over again if only to stop the panic rising from Leader.

"Villain is dead!" Hero finally screamed, and although it wasn't true, and although Other Hero looked at her like she was insane, Leader stopped.

"But he killed you."

"He didn't kill us," Hero said. "We killed him. We are all safe, Leader. He's gone." Leader took heavy breaths, and staring into space, he leaned against Hero. "He's gone. It's okay," she assured. "He's gone."

Even though he wasn't gone at all.

#not a pr0mpt #He's Gone #i wonder if the term goosebumps is universal #you guys all know what those are right?#do we pull out the whump tags?#those have been retired for quite some time #leader whump #team whump #hero whumpee #leader whumpee #villain whumper #this one has been in my drafts for so long and I totally forgot about it. I apologize many times.#How is everyone?!#I've regained my motivation to write so I'm hoping to write more often.

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