#toriel discourse

[chimpcaster]

Honestly, while calling Toriel abusive is a major stretch, I don't think it's a stretch at all to say that both she and Asgore have flaws in their parenting. They're not remotely abusive, and they do love their kids, but they're also not perfect parents either-and I think DR has been highlighting this pretty well.

(Like, I am not judging Toriel for having a fun time with Sans at the end of Chapter 4: she's had a rough time of it, and she has every right to have a fun night of partying with Sans. She should have fun with a friend and move on from Asgore! But it was also pretty irresponsible of her to not check up on Kris and let them know where she was.)

I mean...was it actually that irresponsible? As far as Toriel knows, Kris is spending the rest of the day with a close friend, who Kris (and by extension Toriel) trust enough to let stay over the previous night. She has no reason to think Kris will come looking for her at the church, and even if she did, their house is like a minute walk away.

Kris definitely seems to be mid-late teens, so them staying out slighty later (not even that late - Toriel remarks that Kris seems to be going to bed early) really isn't that strange or cause for concern. The town they live in is a small, close-knit community, too - Toriel goes to church and teaches so probably knows most people who live there. Verging on headcanon territory here but Kris definitely strikes me as someone who would have an established history of staying out.

The only cause for concern that we know Toriel knows about is the whole slashing tires thing, but like, she barely seems concerned about that in general. I had a friend have something similar happen to them recently and it really did turn out to be nbd, so when Toriel isn't shown to worry about that, I'm inclined to believe that that's fairly reasonable and doesn't mark any particular irresponsibility. Going back into 'headcanon that just makes logical sense based on the text', we can assume at least that she had a conversation with Undyne about it, and that this probably reassured her. I get why people wonder about this though.

I take particular problem (not from you anon just soapboxing) with interpretations that Toriel is an alcoholic because we had one scene of her drunk on a weekend night. The 'evidence' for this seems to be that Kris is particularly on edge in this scene because this has happened before, and not because of the stress associated with the Actual Plot of Deltarune, Which Kris is Being Forced Along.

I guess I just find people's chosen analyses on Toriel odd, because there are definitely more interesting things to talk about in Ch3/4 which are ACTUALLY in the text - like the effect of Toriel's/Asgore's arguing upon Kris. But doing this would also have to mean giving Toriel some props for putting an end to that unhealthy household dynamic (and recognising that Asgore's slightly invasive 🥺take me back🥺 routine is Good for Nobody)

Sidebar I dont hate asgore at all but thank god Toriel got the kids in the divorce LOL

One thing I definitely need people to keep in mind is that Toriel (and even Kris!) is NOT seeing things from the player's POV. When Kris and Susie get home, it's emotionally impactful to us because we know the two have had a stressful day and were worried about Toriel. Knowing this, it makes it harder to see Kris struggling to sleep. Keeping Kris up for an indeterminate amount of time isn't great - but it hits us and Kris harder than it otherwise probably would because of the shit they've been through, which Toriel can't possibly know about. When Kris gets home at all, we know a lot has happened that Toriel should be concerned about...again, should she know about it, which she literally can't. We the player are primed by what we know to be concerned about Kris, Toriel is primed by what she knows not to be. Toriel was protective in UT because there was an identified threat, in DR she is lax because she has identified a lack of threat. Her assessment is wrong, but only because she's not omniscient. If anything she strikes me as quite respectful of Kris' autonomy (unlike us the player lol)

To get back to your point, obviously Toriel isn't supposed to be perfect - because usually writing perfect people is pretty piss poor writing. In deconstructing the criticism being levied at her I (and I assume others) would never want to 'prove' she is perfect. I mean...obviously, right?

What I want to do is highlight these questions: Does the criticism of her seem fair and good faith? What assumptions are people making, and why? Even if there's something in the criticism you agree with, does the energy behind the criticism seem proportional to the 'crime'? Are other characters treated by the same standards? If not, what is making it disproportional? (its misogyny its literally just misogyny its so obvious but I'd be here for another hour if I dont just leave it here)

Which characters - in Deltarune, Undertale, or fiction in general - are allowed to be imperfect without it drawing this much critcism?

[sajdd]

crazy how theres so much discourse about toriel, asgore and sans because of the new chapters - specifically ch4 ending

sans has been my favourite character in undertale since day 1 but hes just a funny little gag character in deltarune who came off a bit insensitive at the end of ch4. he probably has literally 0 clue about any of the issues or family drama going on. in his eyes he's probably just having a fun time with a new friend. like yeah he was quite insensitive to kris and susie but i honestly think its just not that deep. (at least not yet.) i think people are just expecting undertale-levels of introspection from him at this moment when he's basically not even plot-relevant right now

toriel is a caring mother who's going through the stresses of looking after a kid who has been distancing themselves from everyone for a long time, missing her other child who has been away for studies, and is being stalked by her ex husband who just will not leaver her alone. the way she acted at the end of the chapter was Not Good™ as it was very irresponsible of not checking up on her child but she's just a kind woman who is flawed and made a mistake just like everyone else can

asgore is a man who clearly knows something about dess' dissapearance and we can infer that somehow this led to the dreemur's marriage falling apart and he's desperately trying to prove his innocence or something - thinking that if he does that then it will all go back to normal. is that a situation that calls for some sympathy? probably, depending on what happened. but is stalking toriel the answer to fixing their marriage? fuck no he should absolutely be judged for that - but while his current actions are inexcusable we can assume that whatever happened has made him that desperate of a man and this can evoke some feelings of sympathy

most of us have seen undertale and know how complex all these characters are. yes they are different in deltarune but the context of undertale allows us to already have a loose grasp of what their personalities are like.

they are all complex characters who are well-meaning but can make brash or emotional decisions that do not have the intention of hurting someone but hurt a lot anyway. why is everybody suddenly jumping to extremes on all these characters. none of them are 100% evil or good in this scenario.

[holoska]

wow I love toby fox's early contribution for soriel week 2025 day 3!!

[eldritchpenguin44]

This is a semi-rant/vent but maybe also a toriel character anayalsis. Idk

Deltarune Chapter 4 spoilers

So it hasn’t been even been a month since the chapters we already getting art and takes saying Deltarune Toriel is a shitty mom and frankly it's starting to piss me off

To preface I am not saying Deltarune Toriel is completely flawless or perfect but I’m also not going to treat her like Satan’s greatest soldier based on one scene in the game’s unfinished story.

Toriel is flawed person and I can understand that people can definitely relate and feel uncomfortable during the ending of chapter 4 but I also not going to write off character for having flaws a part of their story

This reminds of how Sonic fans treated Lanolin during the last arc of IDW for having flaws that she reflected grew upon

God I wish sometimes people didn't just immediately default to Black and White morality for characters and understand there’s gray and nuance in situations. Especially for characters in FUCKING UNDERTALE/DELTARUNE WHERE LITERALLY, 90% OF THE CHARACTERS HAVE FLAWS IN LITTLE OR EXTREME WAYS!!!!!!!

Sorry got heated for a minute their point is in the end Toriel in both games is a flawed person neither extremely good and neither extremely bad and just writing her entire character off just because one scene for a game’s story is not even finished is disingenuous to me personally

There was probably a better way to present what I’m trying to say but I just wanted to express my thoughts on some discourse and vent out my thoughts on how I think it’s unfair that some people immediately turn on character just for making a mistake

TL/DR: Please have some nuance when discussing the ending of chapter 4 and don’t just immediately write off a character. Toriel is a flawed person at the end of the day in both games

[transgenderwaterrat]

utdr fans are still being normal about toriel and asgore I see

[vicholas]

[animation-is-my-jam]

Favorite Undertale character? (I was gonna ask Favorite deltarune too but idk i don't think ppl can say that yet until it's done)

Wowie! A UT ask that's neat!

Ahhhh man I can't choose! I love the Undertale characters so much, but I suppose if I had to say it's a toss-up between Papyrus and Toriel. Back in 2015, Papyrus was my favorite (and first geninune fictional crush. I'm not joking. I would be doing that yumeshipping as you youngins say, back then) and I loved Toriel sm, and now she is one of my favorites because of how complicated and messy she is but I'll defend her with my life. If you couldn't tell, I think I just love mother characters who are always in discourse in any way (crk and Hollyberry, for example. I was screaming when I realized that).

And yeah, good call, but I guess I can still say, whose my current favorite in Deltarune is that despite the game needing to be done to determine that, but hey, why not. But my current fav is Kris. I'll try and do my best not to fuck with them even though I'm still taking their agency in-game unless they want us to IDK MAN LORE IMPLICATIONS OR SOMETHING.

[arty395]

deltarune chapter 4 spoilers

deltarune fans on their way to take the most extreme stances on a half-comedic moment. deltarune fans on their way to kill each other because a character does a questionable thing.

not even gonna go into my own opinion here, this stuff is so ridiculous. do you remember the roaring knight guys. undyne? dess name drop? no? guys. please. the prophecy? do you guys remember the 'only one ending' thing? no? just toriel? oh okay.

[alinethered]

My main issue with Deltarune Discourse isn't even, like. The differing readings. We don't know enough shit and the scenes are open enough to allow for different readings and all that.

My main issue is like. People acting like victims of CSA (or, more specifically, victims of COCSA) are insane/perverts/whatever for interpreting the chapter 4 weird route through the lens of sexual trauma, or that the children of actual alcoholic parents are just. Misogynists for being uncomfortable with Toriel's last scene in chapter 4.

Me when a story has blorbos vs Me when a story has themes.

[chimpcaster]

i just think the time people spend RPing as asgore's divorce lawyer court could be better spent writing Gerson X Reader fic

who said that

[snakeassassins]

before we get into six more weeks of toriel discourse I do feel the need to point out:

toriel has been kris’s sole form of social interaction for several months

kris is canonically a very closed off person who doesn’t like talking about their feelings

kris wouldn’t tell toriel about anything that was happening even if she asked

toriel only stopped spending time with kris when it was clear they were hanging out with friends their age

toriel has known sans for as long as kris and suzie have been friends

this entire game has taken place over the span of like three days

the shops in town closed early because of the rain

we don’t even have evidence it was that late

the last toriel heard from kris they were doing group projects at noelle’s house

which is literally down the street

it’s not unreasonable for toriel to assume they were staying the night even if she should have like. checked first

[mod2amaryllis]

do i get so worked up about toriel discourse cuz i want her to fuck me? obviously yes

[elf-hollow]

I guess the thing that really gets me about the toriel discourse is just that.. well, I guess you can read the scene how you want, but I didn't read it that way at all.

like no, I don't think that this feels like "something that has happened before". like that's just.. not how it's framed? it is an abrupt tone switch. like it's jarring because it's so unexpected. this is not something that we've ever seen toriel do - and, frankly, the way that other people talk about toriel implies that this is an energy she has had in the past, but it's something she's a) embarrassed about and b) specifically avoided becoming again because of her responsibilities as a parent.

like this doesn't read to me as "she gets drunk every week and pulls some shit", it reads to me as "this is the first time in ages she's actually let herself act this way". I would imagine if she was getting wasted on the weekends she wouldn't be so precious with info when people try and tell crazy stories about her past to kris. why would she bother with image control if this is a side of her kris sees regularly?

so like, yeah, of course I think the reading is incongruous with her character as we understand it. but I also think there's a reasonable concern that she could start drinking more, that this isn't implying that this is already a habit but instead implying that it may become one. I think that's a reasonable conclusion to draw from what we've seen, though truthfully I also don't really like that reading either*. but I can at least see where it's coming from.

(*mostly because I just don't think we have the time left in the last 3 chapters to properly tackle a story about that, or even to see much of a descent into it happen. my actual predictions for the future of this plotline are basically just.. I think toriel is going to apologize to kris for acting the way she did and give us a little peek into what's going on in her brain right now in regards to the divorce/asgore/sans/etc)

but the "neglectful" part.. well, that just feels fully unfounded. like I think there's enough to imply that toriel has no real reason to be worried about kris in this moment, but I don't even want to talk about that because outside of this moment she has shown enough concern for them that I think it's not even necessary to discuss this moment specifically. we see her concern so repeatedly that I would more willingly call her overbearing!

I think the fact that her concern over kris is so clear, and is restated over and over by so many different sources, is what makes this reading especially insulting. every moment of concern is made irrelevant in the face of her being uncaring once. she's not allowed to have a moment were she slips, even a little, or fandom may descend like a pack of dogs to tear her to shreds.

is she acting "appropriately" in this scene? no. does that mean suddenly every other moment of characterization was actually a lie and this is the True Toriel, a crazed woman who gets drunk every night and ruined her own marriage so she could party and ignore her children? let's get fucking real

[xx-stellalunaart-xx]

✨🌈Happy Pride Month~!🌈✨

So, since my iPad died on me and I need to wait until next week to get my replacement, I decided to pass the time experimenting with sprite edits! ✨

I was wanting to make something for Pride Month, and ever since Chapters 3 + 4 of Deltarune came out, I was wanting to make some Undertale/Deltarune art too, so I decided to make some Pride Month sprites of the characters from Undertale and Deltarune!

I hope you guys like how these turned out. I know some of these are pretty bad, please don't judge, this is my first time doing sprite edits of any kind 😅

My headcanons and pronouns for each character are listed below. (If I see any discourse about my headcanons, you will be blocked.)

Frisk - Panromantic & Nonbinary (They/Them)

Toriel - Straight (She/Her)

Sans - Bisexual & Demisexual (He/Him)

Papyrus - Asexual & Panromantic (He/Him)

Undyne - Lesbian (She/Her)

Alphys - Pansexual & Demigirl (She/They)

Mettaton - Bisexual & Transmasc (He/Him)

Asgore - Bisexual & Demisexual (He/Him)

Asriel - Panromantic (He/Him)

Chara - Biromantic & Agender (They/Them)

Napstablook - Asexual, Biromantic & Nonbinary (They/Them)

Mad Mew Mew - Lesbian and Transfem (She/Her)

Grillby - Bisexual (He/They)

Monster Kid - Biromantic and Nonbinary (He/They) 

Muffet - Pansexual (She/Her)

Bratty - Bisexual (She/Her)

Catty - Pansexual (She/Her)

[sajdd]

masterpost for my deltarune theories, analysis & general insanity

this will have a lot of links so im putting it under the cut but this post will basically have all the posts i deem are important enough i need access to them and/or think people might be interested in having a read because insanity

theorycrafting:

why kris is going to lose their hand

toby fox "HINTING" at dess being the knight

analysis:

susie being too kind and wonderful for this world

how chapter 4 revealed the true horror of deltarune and why it's more unsettling than undertale's genocide route

susiezilla

not really analysis but this scene really got to me man. just three scared kids in the dark

someone get this girl a reliable legal guardian!!!!!!

ralsei's guilt

asgore, toriel and sans discourse is stupid

food for thought (incoherent rambling to turn into coherent theories later):

why is noone talking about the darkworld colour scheme!!!!

dess is dead but also the knight [ 1 ] [ 2 ]

prophecy girls [ 1 ] [ 2 ] [ 3 ] [ 4 ] [ 5 ] [ 6 ] - i have many thoughts about the susie vs noelle prophecy girl stuff (and even have a deranged 3rd possible candidate as dess) but i havent had the time to make a proper post yet so before i gather all my deranged discord notes into a proper post im saving these links for now

asgore knows so much more than he's letting on and he's much more involved than we think & [ 2 ]

spamton & jevil knew the prophecy ?

so what actually IS ralsei?

the FOUR "heroes" ?????????????????

SUSIE DELTARUNE CORNER!!!!!

i love susie deltarune moodboard

THE DRIP 🔥

susie "the world is my oyster, bitch" deltarune

#autismcore

im awak

KISS THE MY ASS & hypothetical tumblr

susie aurafarming

top 10 susie moment

sus

she is SO SHAPE!!

SUSIE'S SMILE WILL SAVE US ALL!!!!!!!!

J U I C E

important references:

deltarune plot

gerson's secret boss fight all dialogue

insane deltarune text dump???

[daisukoth]

the toriel discourse is insane to me cuz its got people saying that toriel getting drunk and partying out is traumatizing to see