Hey Pencil, can I ask you what you think of Neuvilette's character after the end of the current Archon quest? Not gonna lie, I was a bit disappointed at how he and everyone else treated Furina, but I was curious about your thoughts on the matter
ohohohohohohohoho anon. Dear sweet anon, you've activated my trap card, otherwise known as the Pencil Essay card, because I have sooooo many thoughts about this.
I will say though, I see Neuvilette in context of the story quests too, especially Furina's, as well as his friendship stories and voicelines. So, er, spoilers for that I suppose, but I can't separate those bits away from his character at this point. Anyway.
I frickin love Neuvilette. As a character, he checks a lot of boxes of traits that I adore, like being hella old, a dragon, somewhat isolated from normalcy, a cinnamon roll that can kill you, and Doing His Best. Now, as an important addendum to this, the fact that he is a dragon is a crucial part of the basis, because that's where a lot of conflict starts. He's separated from his kind, he's not a human yet he is confined to a human form, he remembers that the elemental authority should be his but Celestia took it and the archons have it now. The idea he has that he will forever be isolated, and that there will forever be a certain taste of bad blood between him and the rest of the world is founded. And yet. AND YET. Long ago, Focalors asks for him to help lead Fontaine, and he!!! Agrees!!! Neuvilette's character is rooted in a sense of justice and fairness, and in such, he tries to remain open-minded, and thus, he must witness things for himself. When he is presented a change in perspective, he accepts it.
Honestly I thought the Archon Quest did this rather nicely. He worked with Furina, believing her to be Focalors, for years. While Furina did waaay too good of a job in being as showy as possible, their close proximity meant that some of her true ethics and anxieties did make themselves known to Neuvilette. He knew when Furina was panicking and lying, just not why. Likewise, he has had inklings of when she's been sincere, and also, has a better perspective on how other people perceive her. More on that in a second.
Knowing what we know in hindsight, the Archon Quest is....very harsh. But. I understand why it happened that way. It was very clear that neither the Traveler nor Neuvilette wanted to put Furina on trial, however, neither of them were able to get her to tell the truth in private, and time was of the essence. The threat of a whole populace dying (and!!!! People have already died at this point!!!! Civilians!!!) is kind of a big deal. Something happens, or they all die; full stop. Hence, calling out the big guns. Which, to their credit, was just meant as a display of pressure on an actual deity, not an actual trial with death sentences and the discovery that Furina was a stressed out human all along. Focalors wanted that, however, so all according to plan. But very much not what Neuvilette wanted.
Fast forward. For Neuvilette, I think there is something really special to be said that he cares about both Focalors and Furina. He's only ever seen glimpses of both, but when Focalors aims to die to give Neuvilette back what is rightfully his, he protests! He doesn't want that! If there was a way for Focalors to undo the sea, he would accepted that, despite the janky usurped power thing. She is making a divine sacrifice, one that nobody else will truly know, and he mourns the person that is lost for it. Meanwhile, for all that Furina acted as a mask, and acted as if she was entirely self-sustainable, Neuvilette has shown to be concerned over her as a person. He caves so quickly to meet with Arlecchino when it's clear she's nervous, he asks Traveler to look after her, he tries to ask her when she's clearly being flighty. Even little things, like when he tells Traveler to acknowledge Furina at the beginning of the quest when she's showing off, because he knows she equates attention to success (just not why) and he is throwing her a bone. Yes, he is exasperated just as frequently, but Furina is not making it easy at that stage. Her entire schtick is to purposely keep people at arm's length, to be entertaining before she's likable, so really, I think there's an impressive amount of patience to be had.
The thing I have noticed about Neuvilette is that he is the kind of just that is caring. The law is for the sake of the people, and thus, people have become his focus. He denies this for a long time on account of believing himself to be forever an Other, but it is persistent all the same. He quickly wants to see the melusines treated well and with respect when they are integrated with society. He wants to see justice for those who are hurt. He understands, even, when those who do wrong are not bad people, like with Wriothesley. Neuvilette is, at his core, a kind person; however, he is terrible at expressing care in ways we would expect it. In part because he's just Like That, and in other part because he spent so long unaware of it. Usually, this means that he takes things at face value. If a melusine is being threatened, then there is a problem regarding humans' view of melusines again; if Wriothesley crawls out of hell with a Vision and the new title of Duke, then that means he found something to live for and he will support it; if Furina asks for space, then he tries to give her space. Neuvilette is a sincere person, even if sometimes he misunderstands the emotional complexity afoot.
Back to Furina. When it's revealed that she is a human, and she absolutely crashes, Neuvilette may not be the picture of fatherly comfort, but he is there for her in the way she asks, and even, in the ways she doesn't. She wants to be left alone, because Furina is tired of a facade and at this point she believes that everyone will hate both the fake her and the real her. Neuvillete obliges, and he arranges to pay for her apartment and food and make sure she is taken care of, when Furina is clearly not thinking that far ahead. It's clear that he would visit more often, but he's busy being the effective Archon now, and also, he doesn't think Furina would want that. Face value interpretations and all that. However, Neuvilette still appreciates the good that Furina did accomplish, in the mask and out of it. He doesn't fully understand Furina's hangups, but he respects what she does or doesn't want to do.
Now, Furina absolutely hit that depressive slump of a crash. Homegirl is living off of noodles like a broke college student. She thinks the world hates her and that everyone only put up with her because she was the archon and a superstar. Did she need someone to intervene? Sure. But she pushed Neuvilette and Clorinde away when they awkwardly tried, so Furina has to go through the long story quest way, and come to a bit of her own realization that people genuinely respected her ability to act as a skill and a thing of beauty, not just as a lie.
Furina's story quest offers the very best presentation of how Neuvilette sees her, and how, in his own way, he apologizes but also respects everything she has done and is. When Furina goes on stage, despite her valid reservations, and she gives it her all for that actresses sake, and she gives it her all because its real to her too, and Neuvilette sees this and sees her bravery, her spirit, and all of the hard work that Furina has given Fontaine for 500 years. So he tears a chunk off of his power and he gives it to her, in the form of a Vision.
The Visions are such a wonderful representation, because now that Neuvilette is the sole sovereign, without Celestia's janky throne in the way, he has full power over the granting of Visions. He can stop if he wants, because Visions are made by ripping chunks off of the god in question, but Neuvilette has studied and he has learned that humans are amazing and they earn their ambition, and he wants to give to that. So it's an incredibly purposeful gesture here and it carries the meaning of his care and respect in ways that he cannot articulate.
Neuvilette is kind. He's stiff, dutiful to a fault, has trouble being vulnerable and recognizing it in others, but he is trying, and he is kind. He gives credit where credit is do, and he tries to do the right thing, even when he misses the mark. He accepts when he's wrong, though, like with Focalors and Furina, like with missing how the general populace adores the melusines now, like with Childe when he honestly was baffled by the oratrice's absurd verdict. He's an old dragon and he's slow to catch up, but he makes that effort anyway, which I think is really neat. Neuvilette learns and he implements that. In Lantern Rite, he listened to Furina and finally managed to take a vacation, and he made a dumb little dragon ladle and had fun doing it. And he walked away from that realizing why taking a break was important.
So, er, yeah. I think Neuvilette is neat. Furina too. I really wish we can see them interacting more now that Furina is finally getting it through her skull that people do, in fact, want to be her friend and spend time with her, and I would love to see more on the implications that Traveler has told him of the other archons' exploits and he is forced to admit that they also either have no idea what's going on or that they known of them took the elemental authority on purpose/for the sake of it, but that's either an end-game thing or we'll never get it. Alas. Still I think Fontaine and all of hydro is in good hands with him.
Also he's an awkward dragon yall know I love grandpa dragon men who have parental bones but have no idea how to use them on purpose. I have. a type. of course I'm looking hard at neuvilette he's got the whole package
So uhhhhhh yeah. Yeah. I will. End it there.
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post-trimax vash meets stampede wolfwood
[ID: Black and white comic of Vash and Wolfwood of their Stampede versions. The comic starts with Wolfwood continuing off a conversation, saying “I didn’t mean t’say anythin’ bad to her. She just took it the wrong way. But anyway...” Wolfwood speaks with a hand gestured flippantly while Vash, who’s seated next to him, just listens. Vash thinks to himself, “Talks more about himself... Honest expressions... Immature, though he was pretty immature too.” He smiles and continues to think, “And yet...”
A panel of Vash’s eye directed now to the sky. He thinks, “Some things are bound to be the same with us...” He thinks of a memory, the version from Maximum of him and Wolfwood, back shown as they chatted underneath two moons, one moon with a hole through it. Vash continues, “Isn’t that right, W-“ His thoughts are interrupted by Wolfwood coming into a view, a close up his deadpan expression. Vash utters out “-olfwood..?” with a nervous expression. He starts to explain, “Um. Sorry if it seemed like I wasn’t listening, I was! So, let’s keep talking?”
Vash smiles and puts his hands together as he says, “okay?” Wolfwood glares at him with gritted teeth and Vash immediately remembers, “Right, he’s more short-tempered...” He continues to think, “Maybe Plan B works with him—“ before he’s grabbed by his coat collar aggressively and changes thoughts, “OK, never mind, brace for impact..!” But he’s surprised when he’s tugged instead, him and Wolfwood flops against the ground. Wolfwood puts an arm over Vash and says, “I don’t need to be entertained, blondie. If yer tired, we can go to sleep.”
Two close up panels of Wolfwood and Vash’s eyes looking at each other, Wolfwood taking off Vash’s glasses as he says, “Am I wrong?” Vash thinks to himself, “Actually... I was being genuine when I said I wanted to keep talking. I don’t feel tired at all. But, I think you know this body more than I do.”
Vash’s thoughts continue, “I can’t deny the me you’re fond of from being taken care of. And I could never deny your kindness. Even though...” Vash finally smiles and says, “You’re not wrong...” Wolfwood smiles back before tugging Vash closer and says, “Then, let’s sleep.” Vash asks, “Should we get a blanket?” Wolfwood asks, “Why?” before kissing Vash on the cheek, “I’ll keep you warm.” Vash puts his face into both his hands and flushes. Wolfwood smiles cheekily and asks, “What?” Vash responds, “I was caught off guard..” Wolfwood says, “You’ve said worse though.” Vash responds, “Did I...” The panel phases out and the dialogue returns to Vash’s thoughts. He thinks, “I want to stay a bit longer. Talk a bit longer.
You’re tired here too. The future is always going to be unfair to you. I want to protect you from it. I want to hold you close so you won’t go far.” The thoughts overlap the scene of Wolfwood now sleeping peacefully against Vash with an arm over him, Vash’s jacket draped against him as a blanket. Vash looks at him and a small thought bubble thinks, “He can fall asleep first...” His previous thoughts continue, “I know I can’t. I already had that chance.” A close up of Vash putting his hand over Wolfwood’s. He continues, “I wasn’t capable once, I can’t be sure I’d be capable a second time. And in a way...”
Vash’s thoughts continue with the back drop of the sky, Stampede’s sky of two moons without holes, “Some things are bound to be the same. But I know you’ll be loved again and again in a way I’d never know.” A split panel, one half contains the sleeping face of Wolfwood from Stampede, the other of Wolfwood from Trimax. In turn, the Vash lying down looking fondly at Wolfwood shifts to the post Trimax Vash while the other versions, Stampede and earlier Trimax, are faintly drawn next to him doing the same. Vash closes his eyes and finally drifts to sleep as the final text reads, “Goodnight, Wolfwood.”
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RealAgeAU Drabble - Haven
I am back with my BS AGAIN :D @spotaus You know the drill friend come over :D
I can not be stopped. I have grown too powerful!! (just played dnd. Checked the chapter to upload tomorrow for my main au and i wrote a bit on a new story. I AM POWERFUL!) <- says the woman who will probably crash in under an hour lmao.
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We got no beta and no editing as we just go! maybe that is why these drabbles for going so well. me just kinda going and not worrying too much about the in between bits or mistakes or grammar. I just write and say that is done.. huh... writing lesson i guess. ANYWAY! back to the family :3
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Cross hums as he finishes cutting another wood board in the right size. He puts it with the others on the pile before checking the list he made before hand.
Cross nods as he looks towards the house "Got them all ready for the downstairs!" Cross grins as he takes a moment to just look at the house. Their house!
When Horror had returned with the news their new acquaintances had secured them a house they had all been sceptic at best, Dust had been downright suspicious.
But it was the truth! aparently they had managed to build up a good enough reputation that they had been trying to figure out a solution. An empty and abandoned farm and ground? That was too small for most to do anything with? hidden mostly by a forest?
Perfect for them!
They had gone to check it out and it is amazing! It is secure and easily to defend! Sure it is an old building but Cross and Horror can fix up the house easily enough! Dust had handed Nightmare over to Killer and had started looking around the house to inspect it.
long story short? He thinks he can fix most things.
With a hopeful plan they spend the inspection day also cleaning. That had been yesterday.
today? They took most of the old construction wood Crop and Straw had stored away and they got to work. Dust is cleaning and fixing what he can while Horror and Cross himself did contruction work.
Killer is on Nightmare watching duty. Mostly because Killer doesn't have nay skills in construction. Neither of them mind as they had been exploring their new area and territory together. Hoenstly it was adorable to see Killer walk by with Nightmare on his shoulders.
Horror walks out of the house as he takes the planks "Thanks. Walls?"
Cross grins proudly "All of them. Including the walls and the new banisters for the roof."
Horror blinks before grinning "great. thanks Oreo." nad he chuckles as Cross sputters.
May be because horror isn't wearing a shirt. Which kinda makes sense! Becuase horror is pulling a lot of old wood away and rebuilding stuff. the chances of him ripping his few good shirts is rather high. Still Cross is trying very hard to just focus on his face and skull. it is fine! No one notices!
Cross turns back to the pile he still has. it has been reduced quickly which sucks. He looks through it with a frown.
Crop stops by him with a knowing smile "Hey Cross!" he grins wider "Getting heated?"
Cross glares at him "Well the late autumn sun is rather warm!" and he goes back to shifting through his pile.
Crop nods "It is it is..." then the grin falls and he frowns "You guys already that low?"
Cross shifts through it more "Yeah but it is okay! I can probably use this to make the cabinets for the kitchen still..." still they will need to get more materials for everything else.
Crop frowns and must have made the same conclusion "Hopefully Straw gets back soon with more stuff."
Cross rubs his neck "You guys really didn't need to help this much... we already own you big time..."
Crop shrugs "That is how a community works Cross. We all help each other. We will eventually pay it back with helping them back." he smiles "We are only a tiny town and only have ourselves to count on. You heard how the deal with the repair service from the big city went. People are quick to think off us as dumb or naive. We gotta stuck together."
Cross shoots him a grin "We will try to ffigure something out... eventually." he groans "we don't even know what type of farm to make yet!"
Crop shrugs "You guys will have to test some stuff. See what works for you and your land..." he grins again "I don't think a diary farm fits you guys though."
Cross glares at him "Not funny. I swear Betty knew she freaked me uot."
Crop nods "Oh absolutely! Cows are really smart."
Just makes them more terrifying in Cross's opinion and he has no doubt that thought is clear on his face.
Crop laughs but a honk of a car pulls them out of their conversation. and. That is a giant truck. much bigger than Straw and Crop's truck.
Crop blinks "Dani and Ellie?" he raises to his feet and waves.
The truck stops and Ellie leans out "Hello! Your lovely neighborhood lesbians have brought you." she puts ahand under her chin and wiggles her eye brows "the wood."
Dani chuckles as she jumps out "Straw told everyone around town. Most people are grabbing their stuff but this was all stuff we were planning on giving to the community anyway." she shrugs "tree farmers after all."
Ellie grins as she waves them over "Come! lets see what you need! We have all types of trunks with us. They will still need some work and treatment but Dani is amazing with her magic!"
Dani grins as she gives a thumbs up "figure out how to treat wood with magic instead of the slow treatment. Most still want the traditional work but i figured you guys would be okay with this help."
Cross is unsure how to react. People don't just help them. People hate them and what they do. Tehy hadn't expected this much help and it is overwhelming "I... I... I don't know how to... We don't have money?" he is lost.
Dani shrugs again as Ellie smiles "Hey. We have been where you guys have been... well not exactly but people werent'exactly welcoming of us either... as soon as we graduated we grbabed my old car and just left. we foudn thsi place and people were nice enough to take a chance on us." she grins "We now pay that forwards. We are doing this!" she grins and winks "Will just have to invite us over for a prime tour of the farm once you guys are all done!"
Dani nods as she starts untying the many trunks "What Ellie said. the Danielle's are at your service. Now what do you need?"
Cross is still lost when Horror joins them curiously. no doubt hearing all the noise. He pauses as he takes in the sight before tilting his skull "What?"
Cross just kidna waves at the two "We... euh.. got help? And thinks? Do you know what we need?" his mind is in shambles at the moment.
Hroror sees it and smiles as he walks past. patting his shoulder before going over to the dog and bunny and having a short conversation. Horror hears their whole speech and smiles. he thanks them and explains what they need for what. The two woman listen closely before nodding and starting to organise the brought materials with practised ease.
Horror joins his side again and grabs Cross's lists. He takes a pencil and writes some tree names by a few of the items before handing them back "They will help prepare the materials. They are nice." and he disappears back inside.
Welp!! If Horror says that that means they are nice and most likely trustworthy! They get over to him and Cross explains the system he had and what they had calculated to need for each area. The two monsters nod and ask if they should start on the porch while cross continues preparing stuff for horror. Which Cross thanks them and agrees wiht.
They are hard at work when Killer nad Nightmare return. Killer laughs "Criss Cross! you are not going to believe this! The like east area just has a tiny field at the edge of the forest and part of that forest is still in our little area! better yet that means some of the forest animals are like right there!" then he notices the guests and grows quiet "oh... hello." His hold on Nightmare's leg tightens.
Ngihtmare tilts his tiny skull at the two monsters "Dani and Ellie... right?"
Ellie coos as Dani grins "Good memory. I can't imagine remembering all the new faces you meet only once is easy." and she finishes her spell on a piece of wood which Ellie pulls over to cut.
Nightmare shrugs as he hugs Killer's skull "good memory..."
KIller nods as he glances at Cross "Sooooo... Hello Lovely ladies!" he grins "What brings you here?"
Dani raises a piece of wood "Neighborhoodly friendliness." and she continues with her task.
Killer stares at him and Cross grins "They brough over some wood" he ignores the eye brow wigglign "after they heard from STraw that we are getting the house fixed up. aparently it is a community thing that everyone helps everyone." he shrugs at the doubting look "Don't look at me. it is new for me too. Horror said it is fine though."
Killer blinks "I mean... if Horror said it is fine..." he looks at Nightmare "What do you think tiny boss?"
Nightamre shrugs and hugs his skull.
Killer nods "notion accepted. Got it." he grins at them "We are going to look at some of the other stuff Straw and Crop brought along. See what is in there."
Cross nods "Good idea!" and he watches Killer walk off with Nightmare.
Dani chuckles and looks over "Not good at construction?"
Cross groans loudly "Killer is good at a lot of things... not construction." he shrugs "It is fine. We don't want Nightmare near this stuff anyway." he is too small to lift everything and could too easily get hurt. it doesn't matter he is technically a god he is not going to have to work. They don't agree with child labor.
Dani nods "I get that. best to have a child safe corner for them to sit in." she turns back to the next trunk and gets to work as Ellie cuts pieces.
They work for a long time and the sun is well past midday when more people come by. They deliver some older looking furniture and more tools and items for them to use.
Most don't stay for long aside from dropping things off or asking if they needed anything specific. Some brought over some premade food for them and other snacks because aparently 'breaks are important!'.
Crop and Straw, when he returned, work on clearing the road betweent eh main road and the farm and getting some clear markers on where to go.
Dani and Ellie leave later in the afternoon and by the end of the day their group of skeletons looks back at their progress. They aren't done yet but it starts to look more like a house than an actual falling apart piece of junk.
Dust is covered in ashes and when they look at him he just says 'fireplace' which probably means he found a challenge of somekind. Then again Cross thinks he spotted Dust on the roof once or twice but each time he had looked back to check he hadn't been there.
They are packing up when Killer and Nightmare return. Killer looking very proud and Ngihtmare looking a bit more nervous as he fidgets.
Horror and him share alook as Horror looks at them, now once again fully dressed "yes?"
Killer grins "Remember how we were told most farms have a name?"
Cross give shim a look "We are aware. we also agreed we would take time to think about it."
Killer grins "True. But! Nightmare thought of one and I figured it was perfect and fine!" Ngihtmare shoots him a glare and crosses his tiny arms.
Dust tils his skull "fact. Waht is the name?"
Cross wants to disagree but also if nightamre wants to clal it something specific he is fine with it. Nightmare never complains about them deciding stuff so why would they complain about this.
Nightmare mutters something but when he sees everyone looking and waiting he speaks louder "It was just an idea... Killer got excited..." still staring and he rubs his arm looking embarresed "It is silly... I thought... I figured Haven would fit. Haven Farm."
Cross stares at Nightmare and feels a bit of tears try to form as the meaning sinks in and what it implies and means. He can't stop it as he picks nightmar eup and hugs him close. Purring much too loud as he speaks "I agree it is perfect!" their home. their safe place. their hide out. their haven.
Killer grins wider and nods "Which i agreed with. So!" he pulls out a board from behind his back.
It is a name plate. It spells Haven but the letters are a bit croaked and nailed to the backboard. it are all different sizes and different colours nad Cross fucking loves it!
Killer grins "We made it together." he rolls his eye lights "don't worry i did the cutting and nailed it all together. Ngihtmare was my supervisor."
Dust looks appeased as he nods "Seems good."
Horror nods as he takes the plate and puts it by the door, too hang later "Will need a bigger one for the gate at the enterance."
Cross grins as he feels ngihtamre relax at the approval and start to purr himself. Cros sjust nuzzles the babybones.
They still have a lot of work ahead of them but that is fine. It will be all so very much worth it once it is done and they have their house to finally just be them.
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Batman #149 by chip zdarsky is mostly unremarkable, but I'm really fascinated by how it makes a great case for 'good' endings not saving 'bad' stories*. Because there's a lot of interesting concepts in this issue (bruce having to deal with his rapidly aging and decaying clone making him think about his own life, re-establishing a 'nest' so to speak for his family after pushing them away, etc) but bc of the OOC slog that came before it, almost every moment w/ the batfamily comes off as unearned and disingenuous imo.
Like, everything with Damian is the perfect example in this. Because in isolation it's...fine. admittedly it's a missed opportunity to not go deeper into how Damian would feel about a clone of his dad who tried to kill considering Damian's relationships with clones of himself (the heretic rejects and respawn) or with former enemies who wanted him dead but who were manipulated and/or brainwashed (like suren and maya).
Zdarsky doesn't go into any of this but you could maybe excuse it as the issue not being about Damian. However, coupled with the previous bizarre characterizations of Damian in 147 and 148, it ends up not being fine- instead it starts to feel...icky how Damian (who, despite often being drawn and written as white, will never have his connection to the non-white al ghuls forgotten and will always be effected by racism even when not portrayed as a poc) is constantly written as overly violent, uncaring and narrow minded in this run. Coupled w/ trying to recanonize the morrison origin for Damian it's like. OH this is badly written and laden with subtle bigotry, sick**
That's me going into detail on it with Damian but it's applicable to other things in this issue- the way Cass, Steph and Duke have all been ignored or turned into jobbers makes their inclusion in the 'family' here feel hollow instead of satisfying. Bruce proclaiming that Zur was still a part of him and he needs to accept responsibility for his actions (when it means taking in clone son) wrings hollow when just last issue zdarsky was bending over backwards to separate Bruce and Zur bc otherwise the Jason thing would get really awkward. Ends are achieved through means that feel hollow or strange. I'm at my destination but damn why'd the bus have to do all that???
I only really have opinions on this latest arc of zdarskys Batman bc it's the one I've read the closest (bc I'm a hater, masochist and avid follower of even the bad damian storylines) but it's not saying great things.
Bc zdarsky can do one thing good in this book, and it's write Bruce and Tim. And yet this entire story, whether of his own volition or editorial mandate, includes other characters who aren't Bruce and Tim, the fabric starts to unravel in very telling ways.
(p.s, I think pennyworth manor is an interesting idea but I feel like in execution it's just gonna be 'bruce living in a house haunted by the memory of the people he couldn't save' but with a different dead guy this time. Illusion of change and whatnot)
*whether or not the ending is good is up to you ofc, as is your opinion on the proceeding arc! I saw some ppl complain that the ending was too "WFA" for them, which I get even if I dont think it'll literally be the same premise. If anything it's probably a lead into the new tec run. Likewise many ppl who aren't in the weeds of Damian and Jason characterization liked the previous arc! But I have my opinions and rest my case before the bench
**disclaimer, I'm white and portrayals of bigotry in comics are complicated and subjective, but I am basing my point here off what other poc comic fans on socmed have been saying about 149. Also the "sick" is sarcasm incase that wasn't obvious
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