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mystxmomo · 21 days ago

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HI im getting into vhaeraun so, tasks and Situations permitting, im gonna see if I can shoot you some questions to learn more about his scrunkly ass 👉👈

so! what, in your opinion, are vhaerauns most PROMINENT traits (ie whats most obvious in how he acts+interacts) and what are vhaerauns most IMPORTANT traits (core defining aspects that influence his decisions+behaviors and how he approaches relationships)?

often times theres overlap there, but i get the impression vhaeraun keeps a lot close to his chest. and as a bonus followup: are there any differences with those two between Vhaeraun-as-Person and Vhaeraun-as-Deity

hope this ask is fun!! ouo)7

Thank you for enabling me. Gladly.

Post write-up edit: Sorry ahead of time. This ended up being Very, very long. 6k words... a lot of it is transcription from the novels and guidebooks though. If you want the TL;DR of my thoughts I summarize everything at the end, but all the dirty details are in the middle.

Also late edit: Thank @abracadav-r for digging up a lot of these screenshots while I went crazy on the write up. They were a MASSIVE help getting all the information I needed to cite in order.

Okay so. Three things right off the bat before I get into this.

This is something that I feel like goes without saying when I talk about these things, but I always feel the need to add a disclaimer on just in case one of these posts escape containment. A lot of these thoughts are going to be conclusions that I have come to about this character based on the evidence we're given canonically. Given that it's my opinion, I don't want to imply that it's the only way to interpret this character and in fact I think the charm of DND and the various characters within it is that they're little tools you can use to best shape the narrative you're trying to tell.

As such, I'm going to be trying to make it clear when something is "This is a presumption I have made based on evidence." And "This is just plain-spoken canon" and generally speaking, I will try and cite directly what I've pulled from.

Now. Related to that first point. I'm going to be pulling from Evermeet: Island of Elves the novel. The thing about Evermeet is that the way it's presented is as an optional mythos for the elves. As in, in universe, it is told from the perspective of someone passing down an oral tradition. It is a biased origin myth written by the victors.

Now. The reason I personally like Evermeet, despite having some qualms with the metatextual framework of it (which I will get into in depth when it pops up but tldr; There's a lot of victim blaming and the author does not seem aware that she wrote an abuse victim. It was the late 90's of course familial abuse against men isn't treated seriously) is that I'm of the personal belief that the Elf and Drow mythos, when existing in conversation with one another, is best interpreted as a story about familial abuse through the largescale framework of the divine. This is my personal agenda and my bias, and something that Evermeet is great for giving me evidence of! But, still worth establishing that this is a novel that you don't have to take as canon.

Final point before our read-more, because this is getting dangerously long as is. Because of how things are framed within the stories we're given, I do I feel like it's very important to pull up the context itself and not just go off the wiki. The example I will use for this is that on Vhaeraun's wiki page, there is a quote from him that out of context makes it sound like he's choosing not to help one of his follower because the follower hasn't impressed him well enough

“You lack the skill.” — Vhaeraun to Malvag when asked, "Why won't you help me?"

However, in context it becomes (in my opinion) very clear that Vhaeraun isn't helping him because he sincerely thinks that the guy can't do it. Like it would be dangerous for him to try. I'm under the impression in context that he's not denying him because he thinks he doesn't deserve it, he's denying him because he sincerely lacks the skill to use that help properly. And I think that is an important place to actually start our larger character analysis.

Vhaeraun watched. Malvag could feel the god's presence just over his shoulder. He whispered yet another prayer, one that would allow him to touch the god's omniscience. "I need him," he pleaded. "Why won't you help me?" The answer was a whisper only Malvag could hear. You lack the skill. Malvag rocked back on his heels. stunned. That was it [...]

So I'm bad at keeping things into categories. So we're going to start with what I think are Vhaerauns most important traits, and then go into his most prominent ones, because I feel like the important traits color the prominent ones, but like you said I think that kind of meshes with who he is as a person and why he behaves like he does. I'm going to try and narrow it down as I go, but if some of this seems a bit scattered at times. [mumbling noises] don't worry about it.

So that in mind. Insane thing to start with, but the biggest thing I would argue for with Vhaeraun is that he is best painted as a victim of abuse. And this isn't implication. If you take Evermeet at face value and how he interacts with Lolth in the beginning chapters, this is plain text.

(This is going to be the longest section because I have a lot to say on this both in how it's portrayed on a media analysis level and in a "What this means for his character" level, so I apologize in advance)

"Sehanine!" shrieked the dark goddess. She rose and rounded on her son, who'd been standing at her shoulder like a hovering raven awaiting a chance to feed. Vhaeraun took an instinctive step backward. "You idiot!" she screamed her face contorted with rage [...]

"And he is your lord husband. If there is a difference, please explain it to me. Otherwise, we will say that I am your son and leave the matter as settled," Vhaeraun said. His words were blunt and the implications harsh; instinctively he braced himself for another display of his mother's ready temper. To his surprise she laughed delightedly "You are my

[...] "And then what?" he countered in a tone that approximated his mother's sneer. "How can you hope to rule, with a goddess of Sehanine's power to oppose you? You should kill her now, when she is still helpless." Araushnee's hand flashed forward and dealt a ringing slap to her son's face. "Do not presume to question me," she said in a voice that bubbled with rage. "If you are so ignorant that you believe one god can easily kill another, perhaps I was wrong to make you my confidante and partner!" "But what of Herne?" pressed Vhaeraun, eager to salvage something of his dignity even it that only meant winning some small point of argument. "You told me that Malar killed him. And for that matter, why would you set Gruumsh and Malar against Corellon, if neither had hope of success?" "Don't be more of a fool than you must," snapped the goddess. "It is one thing to destroy a god from another place and another pantheon even among the gods, there are hunters and hunted, predators and prey. But to kill a member of one's own pantheon is another matter. If it were so easy, would I not already rule Arvandor?" The young god regarded his mother for several moments, his eyes thoughtful and his fingertips gingerly stroking his stinging cheek. "If it is as you say," he said slowly, "then perhaps you should leave the Seldarine." "Have you not heard a word I have said this day? [...]"

;;

The young god regarded his mother for several moments, his eyes thoughtful and his fingertips gingerly stroking his stinging cheek. "If it is as you say," he said slowly, "then perhaps you should leave the Seldarine." "Have you not heard a word I have said this day? I wish to rule the Seldarine!" "Then do so by conquest, rather than intrigue," Vhaeraun suggested, "You have been amassing an army to do your will. Leave the Seldarine, and lead that army yourself! Imagine Araushnee at the head of a mighty force, the leader of the anti-Seldarine!" he concluded, his voice ringing with the drama of it and the pride of one who admires his own visions. Araushnee stared at him for a moment, then she shook her head in despair. "How did I give birth to two such idiots? Think, boy! List in your mind the great and glorious generals I have enlisted!"

Now. And here's where my issue with the metatextual framework of Evermeet sits.

The conclusion our wonderful friend Elaine Cunningham seems to want us to come to is that he is inherently complicit in his mothers schemes. Like, theres this consistent idea throughout the book that he is equally at fault as his mother for everything that happened, and that bleeds into the text. It's in the way he's framed around her as that of "A Hovering Raven", and like he's lesser for not standing up to her in that moment. But, what I'm reading with my eyes in the good god given year of 2025 is a character who is getting thrown around by his mother and fawning under her to keep her anger regulated. He's constantly portrayed as preparing to or actively take a hit from her, or deal with the repercussions of her anger, or being on some receiving end of some beration. It does not escape me that he adjusts his plans and the way he talks to make her happy. He suggests that they leave and when it's clear that she's not happy he adjusts his thoughts until she is happy with it.

Now, all of this isn't just a "Here's my propoganda as to why my poor blorbo did nothing wrong moment," (Being upfront, my conclusion for Vhaeraun is "Did a few things wrong, but not nearly as much as you'd think) I think this is something that genuinely colors his motivations and the kind of person he is later. Likewise, I think this showcases something thats not only deeply important about him as a person, but Eilistraee and the dynamic that they're in. I think Vhaeraun did, as a result of being her favorite child, experience more of Lolth's direct abuse than Eilistraee did, and it's given him more of an awareness and nuance of the kind of person their mother is than his sister has.

Editing in a long minor note going into the next section before I post this: I feel the need to establish. As a character, I do actually really like Eilistraee. Vhaeraun is my main focus, but Eilistraee is my third favorite Dark Seladrine god on a character level. I'm a little bit critical of her and her world view here because the book isn't. I feel a bit more of a need to defend Vhaeraun's logic and a bit more of a need to dismantle Eilistraee's because the narrative handling for both consistently isn't handled with the amount of nuance that I think they should be. I personally think Vhaeraun and Eilistraee are two sides of the same coin. Despite what DnD wants me to believe, I don't think Eilistraee is always right and Vhaeraun is always wrong. I think they're two characters responding very differently to the insane and extreme circumstances in which they stemmed from, and to say one is wholly correct and the other is "The wrong one" misses the point.

I also acknowledge that this is a DnD'ism that a lot of people have already criticized since even going back to the 90's. I am not the first to say that the alignment system doesn't hold up and the in-universe idea of good and bad is inherently flawed and lacks a lot of nuance. Like. I think there's this idea of "Because we know he ends up evil, this isn't as severe, because he deserves it for being evil" levels of logic happening within the narrative. Take my hand though, we're going to add nuance to it.

Something else important about Vhaeraun. Just a little thing worth mentioning, not too important in the grand scheme of things. Maybe a little more important than I'm implying. Vhaeraun was the original Main Influential God of the Drow.

So. Comparatively, Eilistraee to me reads as a little naive with how she's often portrayed. She was shielded from the worst of their mothers temper and abuse as a result of being her fathers favorite.

Eilistraee, to me, doesn't understand the intricacies of violence, war, and abuse. When she see's her brother, she see's the same kind of evil as her mother. But Eilistraee a FASCINATINGLY unreliable narrator. She is biased against her brother and his influence, so she is only ever going to see the spread of it as an evil. And because, as mentioned, the book is operating on the assumption that he too is evil, it doesn't so a lot to showcase HOW his presence is an evil. So. Vhaeraun came to Toril first, and Lolth followed because she felt his presence off of one of the elves that came into the Demonweb pits. And the country that he was worshiped in was implied to not only be functional, but like thriving in a time when Dragons were the main threat. And his power only collapsed like it did because of his people dying in a black plague level of tragedy.

Other effects of the Sundering also brought mixed emotions to the goddess. On the one hand, it had destroyed many of her worshipers. Yet for each of her elves that had tumbled into the sea or been crushed by falling stone, at least three of Vhaeraun's followers had perished. Lloth reigned supreme among the dark elves' gods.

The conclusion that I'm coming to (Admittedly, this one doesn't have canon basis in plain text to point to, but stick with me) I think Vhaeraun see's himself as the "Rightful" God of the Drow (As in, drow as a whole, not just male drow.) He see's himself as someone that had his "Kingdom" stolen from him. If HE was in control the drow would still be powerful. If HE was the main one being worshiped, they would be respected. But because his mother came and influenced them, he (they) lost everything.

Related to both of these point, I don't think that he has ever seen Eilistraee as a direct threat to him and his power. All of his hatred towards his sister has been portrayed (and outright stated) to be rooted reaction to how he's treated as a result of their father favoring her, and what he see's as her enabling. And again, that goes right back into what my thesis point is for the Drow/Elf pantheon. This is a story about an abusive family structure, and that colors everything about the relationships between parent and child and siblings.

[...] Likewise, the Masked Lord nurtures an abiding hatred of Eilistraee. The Dark Maiden always held Corellon's favor more than her hateful brother, and she thwarted Vhaeraun's early efforts to bring all the Ilythiiri (southern, dark-skinned elves) under his sway, enabling Lolth and Ghaunadaur to make great inroads among those who would become the drow. [...]

"Not alone," Vhaeraun said firmly. "Eilistraee plotted with us. She deserves to share my fate." "Eilistraee? I cannot believe this of the girl" began Sehanine. "You were not here!" Aerdrie broke in fiercely. "I saw her shoot the arrow that struck down Corellon! And as her own mother points out, the girl has never missed her mark!" Corellon shook his head. "I cannot believe she would do such a thing!" "Believe!" hissed Vhaeraun, enraged that Corellon suffered such doubt and anguish at the thought that his precious Eilistraee might have turned against him. He was willing enough to name his son a traitor! Vhaeraun had always hated his younger, favored twin. Now he would have his vengeance. The young god turned to his mother, his eyes burning with an enmity that set even one such as Araushnee back on her heels. "You promised me power and honor," he said in a voice meant only for his mother's ears. "But instead, your ambitions have cost me everything. Give me Eilistraee, and I will consider this day's bargain well made."

[...] Finally he looked to Vhaeraun. "Eilistraee has chosen. Go now, and take her with you. But know that the day your hand is lifted against her will be the last of your life. This I swear, by all the trees of Arvandor." Vhaeraun's face twisted with hatred and rage, but he had little choice but to comply. Corellon stood silent as the young god shouldered his unconscious twin and disappeared. Finally he rose to his feet and faced his fallen love. [...]

And I do think it's a bit telling that even at the height of his power, the most he did was exile her. (This is implied, who else would have done it)

[...] "I am known as Eilistraee, the Dark Maiden. I require from you neither reverence nor vigilance," she said softly. "I come as a friend, and in need of friends. Put aside both your weapons and your wonder, and let us talk. There are things that you must know if you intend to confront the Ilythiiri." The sadness in her voice smote Sharlario's heart, and he did as she bid. "You spoke of exile, lady," he commented. "Forgive me, but I have never heard of such a thing. From whence are you exiled, and, if I might ask, why?" "Most recently, from the southlands," the goddess said. [...]

Authors note: The Ilythiiri were drow before they were called drow.

If he wanted her dead (for the crime of existing), I think he would have killed her ages ago. But I don't think he does. I think he's just angry at the hand he's been dealt and it's easier to blame her than it is to unpack the complicated feelings he has towards his mother. Him attacking her in Lady Penitent feels like a means to an end for me. He's not attacking her because he hates her personally, despite what she thinks. He's attacking her because (In character logic and reasoning) if he combines their churches then maybe he will have enough power to combat their mother.

(Now. I as an author think this is flawed logic, and we know that because when Eilistraee took his aspects the churches splintered, because you can't force people to worship someone they don't like. But, his logic and reasoning nonetheless)

I'm not sure where to include this, but we're getting to the end of the family section and I still haven't mentioned Selvetarm.

Selvetarm... To keep it short. The cycle of abuse continues. He's absolutely blinded by rage when it comes to his family.

[...] "What I want, you speck of a creature" he brandished the stump of his wrist before Inthracis's face "is Selvetarm's obsequious brain torn from his foul head so that I can use his empty skull as a piss pot." [...]

Now. Going away from all of that to the next big thing with him.

I think a lot of people want to kind of. Dance around the drow racism of his character. I don't think we can dance around the fantasy racism of his character. I think, in fact, we need to sit on the fantasy racism a little bit and peel back the layers of it because I actually think the framework of what we're looking and what it says about him is kind of interesting. Because Vhaeraun really does not hate non-drow.

This can be a touchy subject. Up front, take none of this as a defense of his mindset, just an explanation toward its and an exploration of it.

Source citing note: This section comes from this video by Ed Greenwood on him.

[Start: 3:41] Non-drow can become priests of Vhaeraun, but it's very rare, as the deity is inherently suspicious of non-drow, and because many drow, holding similar suspicions, would refuse to accept, so train and work with, such an individual. So if someone wants to embrace the faith of Vhaeraun in service, that is, becoming an ordained priest, they are going to have to demonstrate personal support to Vhaeraun's aims, then appeal in prayer to the deity directly. Vhaeraun will respond, manifesting an avatar, and flood supplicant's mind with his own, an excruciatingly painful experience that may well drive the supplicant mad. His arrogance and force of presence is terrible to most mortal to prove their thoughts and memories personally. Vhaeraun must be certain of their motives and their loyalty. He dare not allow a traitor into the ranks of his relatively, when measured against the ever present malicious darkness that is the worship of his mother Lolth, small and weak church. If he finds treachery, he will typically destroy the mortal mind he has melded with, leaving the hapless would be traitor a drooling, vertigo smitten victim, able to speak and reason only slowly and haltingly, and so extremely vulnerable to almost any hostile being. If he finds loyalty, he will be delighted, for he sees the road to achieving his aim of drow supremacy as necessitating acceptance of his guidance and that of the mortal drow who serve him by non-drow. He will mark such a mind with a boon, typically darkvision, or, for a gifted mortal, the ability to cast dancing lights at will, or darkness, or fairy fire, once every 48 hours, from the moment of their last casting of a magic he's conferred. This boon is not entirely generous, but also serves to alert all drow, Vhaeraun intends it for his followers, but it works for drow of any primary loyalty, that this individual is his. That is, that he favors this being and they are loyal to him. This is what enables a non-drow wannabe cleric of Vhaeraun to find acceptance in the ranks of his church. They will never be entirely trusted, as in, they may well be trusted with dangerous, important tasks or missions by senior priests who see them as inherently expendable, but they will always be watched, both overtly and covertly. But so long as they accept their subservient role, they will be accepted.

But this isn't the only thing I want to bring up from this video.

How much do you know about the concept of noblesse oblige.

("the inferred responsibility of privileged people to act with generosity and nobility toward those less privileged.")

[..] Vhaeraun himself has bolstered this acceptance by protecting such non-drow priests personally in situations where he manifests, and clearly, by his words and deeds, caring about their health, safety, and welfare. When one of his senior drow priests, Alont Aerlarr of Athkatla, asked the god why he did this, Vhaeraun replied, "To lead and rule others means we must value those others; a shepherd who cares not for the sheep is no worthy shepherd. By valuing our livestock, we increase our own value and demonstrate to all our fitness to lead all other creatures." [...]

Using these as sources, here is what I think Vhaeraun's mentality and the drow supremacy of it all comes from.

Vhaeraun does sincerely see drow as being better than other races. However. To properly understand where his mindset is, you must also understand that it is a racism of patronizing rather than one of pure hatred. Drow are better, they're stronger, they're my favorite, so we must show our strength and power and our ability to care for those we will rule. How can we be trusted to rule over them if we do not carry ourselves with the honor and respect of someone that is worthy of ruling.

It is the divine right to rule on a hierarchical level.

I also think there is a level of distrust and discomfort that comes from their their circumstance. He is the counter to Eilistraee's "We must show others we are good and deserving of their respect." He is this logic of "Why should we trust and respect those that don't respect us? They should just already respect us."

So I think the drow supremacy of it all is uhh. Nuanced. I don't think his mindset is right, but I also think it is one that would be changed if their circumstances were less extreme. I also think the mindset enables his church to do uh. Evil Slavery Things! Again, we cannot get around the evil fantasy slavery things and the bigotry of it all.

But we can explore it. Because this is a fictional character in a fictional setting.

Now, semi-related to the above point as well, with all of that in consideration, I don't know if Vhaeraun wants power for the sake of power. I don't have any in-text proof of this outside of "Everything above is emblematic of a deeper motivation" but I'm kind of under the impression that to Vhaeraun, power is synonymous with stability and respect.

So. That's Vhaeraun and the important/prominent traits he has. Now I think we can get into him as a person on a personality level.

;;

It is now that we can actually pull things up from Demihuman Deities and Drow of the underdark, and a little bit from War of the Spiderqueen

Personality wise, this is how he's described.

I think your impression of him (That he's someone that keeps a lot close to his chest) is correct. My personal interpretation of Vhaeraun is that he is playing the part his followers need him to play. What he needs to be is a leader and a king. What I think Vhaeraun wants is to be one of the guys (for a lack of a better term). He wants to be included. He WANTS to be called out to, and wants to be wanted. He finds it hard to hold aloof from the needs of his worshipers. He doesn't want them summoning anyone but him.

and this is built into how he works mechanically. He's weak on his own, but he's supposed to be built around his followers and take advantage of their skill set.

Related: Do you want to see the hottest thing he's ever done. Like canonically. To me.

Defending one of his guys without even looking and then sending the assailant flying into the air. Deeply hilarious. Very hot. I would trust him with my life. I think about this passage a non-zero amount.

Not important to his character persay, but a fun sidenote to cut through all this. While the fact he's the god of thieves has gotten the most focus in recent years, in the many ways he parallels Eilistraee he's actually the God of the Night canonically, and a lot of things around him (especially in earlier editions) ride around that coding. If Eilistraee is the moon, he is the sky and the stars.

I joke about the fact he's a dumbass (Because he can be a little bit of a dumbass) but I do actually think he prefers logic and reason schemeing solutions to violent ones. If he can get power by doing tax evasion, he prefers that to doing it through conquest. Because conquest means the people that worship him die as well, and he really doesn't like putting his guys at risk.

As an example, and something I consider to be a deeply telling thing of his character. He's a bitch that LOVES a loophole. Gods aren't allowed to steal souls from other gods? That's fine. He'll just have his followers do it. He's not breaking any rules.

He can't kill mortals directly? That's fine. He'll hire demons to do it.

He's someone that LOVES getting away with things that he should not. He doesn't need to fight. He just needs to outscheme.

(Though, and this isn't supported by anything in text and another thing I just personally noticed as a trend. Despite seeming to view himself as a schemer and a logical person, he is a character who is not only deeply driven by his emotions, but kneecapped by them as well. As mentioned earlier, he's so blinded by his anger towards his family that it ruins multiple of his plans. His want to keep his worshipers safe stops him from using them, even when they might have allowed it. I think a lot of the things he did in WotsQ was driven by panic. He acts before he thinks, and he acts on his emotions, and he hides that he acts on his emotions by putting up this edgy, knives and shadows front.)

Anyway. Final note. He's a whore. Male slut. Libertine.

Now, there's a consistent implication with most gods in the Forgotten Realms that they are willing to sleep around, and I know that Ed Greenwood has described the presence of gods as caresses and touches. However, lets be clear. There's no implication here. He is just one of the few gods that even back in 2e that is directly mentioned to be sleeping with his followers.

Masked traitors receive the personal attention of Vhaeraun in the form of useful information imparted to them from time to time in their dreams. The Masked Lord richly rewards those who do well in his service, and he often (falsely) hints he is willing grant immortality to worthy traitors or even elevate them to the role of his consort

Now, you can interpret that the (Falsely) is applicable to both the immortal line and the consort line, but

Dragging evermeet back in for one last rodeo.

[...] This proved to be a difficult task, considering that the entire Seldarine was celebrating the dual victories of Corellon Larethian. Avoiding several score of celebrating elven deities, even in a place as vast as Arvandor, proved to be no easy matter. Nor was it easy to hold Vhaeraun's attention: Many a young goddess-and one or two of the elder powers as well-urged the handsome young god to join in the merriment. At highsun, Araushnee finally left Vhaeraun to his revels. She sought out Corellon, for he might [...]

Lolth voice: Ugh. Keeping my sons attention is so hard. Why is it always him and the partying.

Vain.... Handsome.... Okay. I see you DnD. He cares about his appearance, and how he's being perceived.

===

So where does all of this bring us. How do I summarize my thoughts on Vhaeraun: The Masked Lord.

[All of these are my personal conclusion summed up. If you disagree, thats totally fine! But this is the impression of him I personally get with all of this in consideration.]

I think a massive and defining part of his character is the concept of noblesse oblige. This is something that colors so much of the way he behaves. Because as a deity he is stronger than the drow that worship him, it is his job and his duty to protect them. Because drow are better than other races, and it is their duty to Shepard them. If they are not protecting them properly (And by proxy, If he is not protecting his guys properly) that is a failure on their (his) part. He's someone who believes in the idea of honor amongst his own people.

In contrast to that, I think he is deeply possessive, protective, petty, spiteful motherfucker. He is, above all else, emotional, and driven by the things he feels. And I think the things he feels most frequently anger and righteous fury.

And I think the irony of it all is that all of that comes from the fact that he cares. In fact, I think he only acts as he does because of how strongly he cares. The drow are his. They are something stolen from him. He loves the drow. That is his love and his empathy, because it is the only way he's ever known how to love and empathize. And the reason that is the only way he knows how to love and empathize is because he's an abuse victim. You cannot touch on the concept of Vhaeraun without touching on his sister, mother, and father because he only became the kind of person he is because of them. While you don't have to touch on his son, I think doing so adds another layer, because it shows another way he's kneecapped by his emotions. He can't separate the emotions he feels towards his mother from the feelings he has towards his son, thus inflicting the same neglect and pain he was subjected to onto him and leaving him in the hands of his mother, while blaming him and strictly him for what she made of him [Selvetarm, that is.]

You know. Like people to him.

I think his evolution of going from what seems to be this young, Dionysus like deity, to a god of territory who managed to make alliances with dragons and create a respected empire, to this militant and paranoid divine figure and leader of rebellion is fascinating.

And I think, despite his personality being the way it is? He's not unkind. He just isn't wearing that kindness on his sleeve. He CAN'T wear the kindness on his sleeve. But his gifts aren't insincere. He wants to include his worshipers in the things he's doing. He wants to BRING them places.

"Vhaeraun has called me to his service in the planes beyond Faerûn on several occasions," Tzirik admitted. "In fact, I have been in the Demonweb Pits before now. All the gods of our race reside here, each in their own domain within this great chasm of webbing. My previous business did not take me to Lolth's domain, though, and that was a good many years ago."

I think he is someone deeply motivated by the concept of "Means to an end." Doing bad things now is fine, because once we're in power we won't need to do that anymore. It's okay to do bad things to the people that don't respect us, because it is not our job to convince them to respect us. They will see our power, and then they will respect us.

And, if you want something that I think is never stated plainly, but my insane delusions of the upmost degree. I think he's a god who's a little uncomfortable with the divine. They're not something that can be trusted. But his mortals? The ones who chose to worship him and put their trust in him? They are the ones he likes. They are the one's he'll protect.

And also all of that and he's a slut.

#Vhaeraun #Character Analysis #Thank you I needed to go crazy on a write up I needed this in my life

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fishesmaniack · 2 months ago

Text

--my headcanon--

"MiSide" (video game) is a prequel to "9" (film)

[!]disclaimer: this is a long post[!]

--[!]segment #1[!]--

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A human/human being (consciousness/soul) is injected via a transference to an inanimate/machine to start, in the case of Miside, the details of how humans can be seemingly teleported into the mobile game's world are left purposely obscured because that, a possible explanation could be found in the method seen within the film 9 of transferring human consciousness or maybe even just the human body itself into the code of Miside could be similar to the way "The Scientist" from that movie transferred his intelligence within the "Fabrication Machine," otherwise known by the code name "B.R.A.I.N." aka Binary. Reactive. Artificial. Intelligent. Neurocircuit. (either way, it's the machine seen on the left side of the meme above, I got the names for it from the fandom wiki for 9 as well btw) or how he transferred his pieces of his soul into the "stitchpunks," the other equally important half of the feature, and obvious parallels can be drawn from the similar yet different creation methods of the two projects.

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In the film 9, we don't know much about the government project that B.R.A.I.N. was made for still, using the world of MiSide, an extra level of depth to the governmental operation is created I could plausibly see the corrupt government that already made the sketchy move of making the lead scientist of their project transfer his mind into a machine so that it could automate the process of building war machines go down the route of creating a predatory program connected to said machine that preys upon lonely men's innate desire to find a female partner and seal those souls within the Fabrication Machine's body to be tested upon to build even more robotic replacements for mankind Because why just stop at re lacing soldiers in a war when you have the framework to automate many jobs so that you don't have to pay people to perform them.

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But instead of transferring the consciousnesses of these men flat out, as things got hairy when The Scientist initially did with the machine in the first place. Training the cold, deadly androids manufactured within the game's very code and put in the skin of cute, bubbly anime girls named "Mita" to become human by interacting with their designated "partner" in the form of a person who's played and then becomes addicted to the mobile game. It also explains why there isn't any buzz about people going missing after downloading the game within the outside real world of Miside, because the government is actively covering up every missing person case that pops up connected to the mobile game. Also, I could easily see the government tricking the scientist into giving his intellect to a cold, unfeeling machine by not only bringing up that he's an older gentleman with probably not too much time left but also having the project initially be about making a subversive dating sim instead and masking the end goal of building war machines along with human replacements behind that cover.

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The scientist probably wasn't even on board the project for all that long, so he would have never seen the inner workings of MiSide's digital world. Still, I could see how a project to make an endless yet simple mobile game that makes lonely people (mainly men) feel comfort and companionship despite their living situations or mundane jobs would be an enticing project, even more so if you never saw behind the curtain while you were working on it. Now I would be remiss if I didn't bring up the unlockable cartridges that can be found through the game world of Miside, which hold a good amount of important information within them, such as a bit of info - or more than that for "player 1," aka the main character of the sci-fi interactive tale - for each player that entered the world of Miside, which goes from 1 to 10.

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And that alone brought up some questions in my mind, as it wouldn't make sense for our main character to just so happen to be player 1, especially when there's such a complex and robust world that lay waiting within the game, which he only got sucked into on his 37th day of playing the mobile app and I don't think anime girl Rome was built in the span of couple days if you get what I mean. Either this info isn't meant to be read into and he's only player 1 because he's the game's main character, or there's something more to this small but essential detail. That being said, this brings me to my personal theory, which is that he's only the first player to play the latest version of the game because the different versions have new Mitas connected to them. I can see the game warning players about that fact.

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Many of them choose not to update their games because of that, and this is backed up by how all the collectible player cartridges seem to all have the same Mita, aka "Crazy Mita." Despite one other player being met briefly during the campaign, he brings up how he needs to find his Mita while going through the out-of-bounds labyrinth that can be accessed after meeting "Kind Mita" in the basement. I am under the impression he's "player 3," who states that he left the Mita who brought him to the mobile game's "metaverse" and instead found another Mita, whom he ditched to find other Mitas despite the bond they had. He states in the cartridge description that he regrets that decision.

--[!]segment #2[!]--

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The cartridges even hint at the game having a large fan base or being part of a bigger brand/franchise via "player 4," who states that they cosplayed as Mita, which wouldn't make sense if the game didn't have a big fan base in-universe, but that also begs the question of why there are so few players then. Now, I think my previously mentioned theory in this sentence is the answer to that question, but I don't think that's the whole story, and because of that, I have a side theory to fill in loose gaps that can be found elsewhere within the game. In the chapter set out of bounds, right after going to the latest version's basement and meeting Kind Mita, the player encounters a box full of tiny players and has to make these miniature players enter a vent, which is connected to a device that needs 3 of them inside of it to open a door.

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I think this is a remnant of an older version, and much like how the mini versions of the Mitas aren't really them, these are merely clones of past players, which Crazy Mita or whoever else now uses as a type of security check system. On that topic, it's implied that Crazy Mita and only her alone is the whole reason why players are sucked into the game world, which she got help with from "player 10," who I think is the person player 1 stuns once he finds the console containing that player's very being, but that would also mean some level of congruency must be going on between the players. Nonetheless, Crazy Mita being the origin for players getting trapped in the game doesn't ruin my headcanon of the game being a prequel to the movie 9 because of the fact that the metaverse of the Miside app in-universe exists at all. Mitas are built first as "dummies" in a controlled and corporate way, which is the most important thing that connects the game and movie.

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So, this is aside, but I personally think the chibi/mini Mita(s), 2D Mita, and Ugly/Creepy/Original Mita all don't have dummies inside of them, which the first two are a little self-explanatory when equipped with sufficient information from playing the game along with not being important to this headcanon on their own (aside from the mini player stuff). Still, the last Mita is, come to think of it. I'll just default to calling her "Original Mita" while discussing her, despite that name only being brought up in her character profile. Still, it's a more fitting name to refer to her when discussing concepts I'm about to enter. Nonetheless, to quit the yapping, Original Mita is the off-putting and scary Mita found near the end of the game in "version 0.5." I initially thought her creepy nature and glitches were born from code rot/software rot because she's an ancient version. Earlier in the campaign, Kind Mita alludes to why she's the way she is, but that's merely part of how she became the way she is by the time the game takes place.

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Her character profile suggests another explanation for her nature, which is that she's an unfinished version and merely was just the first attempt at making a Mita; hence, I don't think she has a dummy inside of her because it wouldn't make sense that she would be created uniformly when she's the first Mita we know about existing (not counting "Core Mita," who I'll get into later), and to loop back to the headcanon this post is attached to. I think The Scientist being the one who made Original Mita would make a lot of sense because the movie implies he wasn't on board with the Fabrication Machine project for that long and would explain why not only she's left in an unfinished state with her character profile stating that she has a primitive AI within her, but also she's the origin point for all the glitch spider creatures we find within the game, with her only friend - Crazy Mita - using her to create those said glitch spiders to corrupt other versions.

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Something that has gotten so bad that I'm almost certain the monster that chases player 1 down in the loop chapter is a massive collection of those spiders fused together, because it resembles them a lot. There are already a lot of spiders in that version. But to wrap this up, Original Mita's version, aka her home, is also clearly unfinished, as it's full of missing pink and black checkered textures along with things like floating props, so it would make sense that no one else on the team behind the Fabrication Machine project bothered to ever finish her first, not only because she doesn't have a dummy inside of her but also because The Scientist wasn't working on the project anymore.

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The app world of Miside seems to be a giant machine with several areas having a deliberately industrial feel rather than an out-of-bounds or inner-code aura attached to the places in the game. And going off of how it doesn't take too long for the app to download, one can infer that the inner workings of the world are connected to a larger server in the real world, which updates and versions are created within before being pushed onto the app as seen on a mobile device. It has already been theorized that the goal B.R.A.I.N. had throughout the runtime of 9 was to put their creator back together. Now I was one of those people, and that thought came to me while brainstorming my headcanon. Still, I would be remiss if I didn't mention "The Fangirl" on YouTube because I specifically watched their 9-analysis video on the Fabrication Machine while writing this extended essay you are reading. She made me feel seen when she brought up the theorized possible motivation for why the machine acts the way it does in the movie.

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And with that said and done, back to the main topic at hand, this possible motivation for the already exhaustively mentioned antagonist of the film would work well with the headcanon as to how their way of getting their personal mission of bringing their creator back was attempted via consuming the souls of the stitchpunks, which would mean that they planned to bring The Scientist into the app world of Miside so that they could be together again. Although some may say that Core Mita may have been waiting for "player 9," who made the core their safe spot because no Mita can enter that particular version, not only does she seem to treat them like she does with player 1 during the campaign, but we also don't see them in the core when we eventually make it there in said campaign, so either they were turned into a cartridge. At the same time, they thought they were safe, left the core, and then died soon after, or Core Mita threw them out, akin to what happens to player 1 near the end of the game, possibly because she was mad about him messing with something within the core.

--[!]segment #3[!]--

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And to get onto the topic of "Core Mita" (otherwise known as the "keeper of the core" according to the MiSide fanon wiki), who, despite being the second character present within the meme that is now sitting far at the top of this post, I have only now gotten to talking about her. Nonetheless, little is known about her, as seen within the story mode and in its designated description, but there is an interesting line about her. I quote, "Its intentions are unclear - perhaps Core Mita is waiting for someone," which I lifted from the fandom wiki page about them, but is something from its official character profile that can be unlocked in the game itself. This is something more than a simple throwaway added for extra flair. Still, it works perfectly with this headcanon of mine because if Core Mita is merely the avatar/heart of the Fabrication Machine kept within the digital world of MiSide, logically, the person it is waiting for would be the Scientist.

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And to bring up yet another theory that I share with The Fangirl on YT but with my own spin on it, perhaps another reason for why B.R.A.I.N. shut down despite coming out as the victor of the man vs. machine war was not only because it did not know about the whereabouts of The Scientist and hoped that its created mechanical monsters could find him or at least his remains. It could also have shut down to return to watching over the Mitas, as it had to leave that digital reality behind once it started manufacturing war machines in the real world, or it simply just wanted to have more control over the world within its body. Either way, this decision of its own could be explained logically away by it feeling a level of kinship for the Mitas roaming around within its vast digital mind, not only because it created them and because the digital world that they reside in is that of another Mita, but also because it relates to their plight of existence of being merely nothing more than a means to an end.

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But seeing as Core Mita doesn't do much within the campaign of MiSide, one could infer that it doesn't really care about its fellow Mitas nor the poor people trapped within the code of the game world, with the exception being when the main character, or rather "player 1," tries to reset the main antagonist of the game, known as simply "Crazy Mita," back to her factory setting, wiping all of her memories in the process. Core Mita only seems to care when the deed is done, with it jumping down from its circular "throne" attached to the ceiling of the "core" (or otherwise known as "version 0.0"), which is where it gets one of its many possible namesakes from, and then standing in the way of player 1 before grabbing him and throwing him across the room the second he gets close enough. He was thrown right back to the entrance of the core. But to step back, when the player first enters the core, one can see Core Mita lying on its circular seat atop the core's ceiling before sitting up after taking note of the player's presence within the room. So one can infer it is capable of getting bored sitting on its metal rear end all "day" (as time is a shaky concept in the MiSide app's digital world), so the "log-in/sign-out" of the "real/digital world" switching side-idea within this headcanon has a bit more ground to hold it up when taking that into account as well.

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So, because Core Mita is the guardian of the core, its mere existence would make sense with how many vital systems are within that very room. Now, even i I like the idea of Core Mita being the Fabrication Machine's avatar within the digital realm of MiSide, the other possible reading one could come to would be that it's merely the heart of the world within said machine, meaning that neither one nor the different needs each other to exist at any given time, but once again, I still like the latter reading, so I will try to make it work all the same with that said, if Core Mita doesn't feel any compassion for its fellow Mitas, much akin to how the Fabrication Machine seems to feel the same about its monstrous mechanical creations that roam the remains of Earth after the war. Then perhaps the Fabrication Machine would ideally want to wait within their own digital realm while waiting for its creations to find The Scientist would be not only because it nostalgic for a time before it was ordered to build weapons of mass destruction all to further humanity's own efforts of fighting against our own kin but also perhaps because it foresaw the possibility of a player walking into the core and messing with its body from the inside out.

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That, or perhaps the small players can also be seen in one part of the game would be a worry for the Fabrication Machine, as they are implied to be proficient with machinery and roam free around the digital world of MiSide with no clear "off switch" to their existence, like how it is for the players. It would be rather poetic, as the machine would have to deal with the stitchpunks after it awoke. That, perhaps, it could have even been scared of another scientist on the project, still alive and roaming around its digital insides. Mitas aren't allowed within the core, but players are, and going off of how there are other security systems found throughout the game, one can infer that the people behind the project of MiSide could presumably come and go freely into and out of the world of the endless mobile app's universe.

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But finally, this road poetically brings us to the ending/main ending of both media sources used in this exploration of my headcanon involving them both. To put it simply, I think the grim ending of MiSide, where you get so close to bringing even a single cycle of abuse and control at the hands of Crazy Mita only to be foiled in the end and become merely yet another part of that very cycle with your humanity relegated to nothing more than a single cartridge, which you are trapped lifelessly in a limbo-like state on top of already being tightly sealed within the digital world of a mobile app that preyed upon your desire for companionship and to escape the mundane reality of boring real life. That somber and canonical ending to the tale of MiSide - in my opinion - not only elevates the hopeful and cycle-breaking conclusion to the film 9 but also is given a light at the end of the tunnel in the form of this headcanon, as not only do the spirits of deceased stitchpunks murdered by the hands of the Fabrication Machine pass onto the afterlife, but so too do those players and the player character of MiSide himself pass onto that very same peaceful afterlife after the Fabrication Machine and, by proxy, the world of MiSide are laid to rest once and for all.

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Now, one might wonder "why don't we see all of the trapped players' souls flow out of the machine once it's destroyed?" and an answer I thought up as an explanation for this possible question is a sober one, but a possible one. This would come in the form of how perhaps all of the players' whole beings were turned into nothing more than code, which could either be because of the technique of transferring humans into the game world or maybe perhaps only a digital copy of the players is created within the mobile app's realm and then just flat-out transporting them into the digital universe itself. This won't go along with MiSide's hopeless ending. Still, at the very least, the players' beings were given the same fate as the Mitas after the machine drew out its final artificial breath as the mobile game's world fell into nothingness soon after.

[END]

--[!]segment ✩EXTRA[�]--

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So this is going to be a full-on fanfic tier segment, but I just wanted to talk about the story of a 9 + MiSide movie/game sequel concept I thought up not too long ago. I think a prequel to the movie 9 could be interesting and would probably be similar narratively wise to the film Oppenheimer as it would be presumably centered around The Scientist creating the Fabrication Machine (on this note, there's a theory that player 1 in MiSide worked on the app in-universe and I'm just not a fan of this idea because to me, it ruins "wrong place at the wrong time" random guy fish out of water narrative the game has going on along with not having enough evidence to back it up) but I'm personally just not all that interested in a continuation in that form so I'll just be going the sequel route. Anyways, this will be the rough outline of what I had in mind for a way to continue both of their narratives in a satisfying way (at least in my opinion) while weaving their stories together into one. But before we start, this idea came from how I learned from the 9 fanon wiki that the director of the film (Shane Acker) wants to make a sequel to the movie, but the rights holders (Focus Features + Universal Pictures Studios) won't let his team or him go forward with it. I hate copyright with a burning passion and this is only yet another reason for why my feelings towards it are justified, I honestly do not understand how companies are allowed to hoard IPs that they aren't doing anything with but somehow can indefinitely keep them in stasis when they didn't even create the idea and just merely backed it financially.

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Now going off of the statement above, does that mean I want either of the rights holders just to crap out low effort content based on the movie? No, of course not, and nor would I want them to get the original team back on board to make a low effort product that pales in comparison to the original. But on that note, the fact that the original team wants to make a 9 sequel fascinates me greatly because the movie's ending made it feel like there was no where else to go with the narrative to the point that I can't even visualize what the remaining stitchpunks (9, 7, 4, and 3) would do with their newfound freedom let alone what the conflict of a sequel would be after the Fabrication Machine and all it's underlings became nothing more then hollow shells of metal, scraps, and the very long dead itself.

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But with that background, let me begin to weave the narrative that I thought up in my head while daydreaming. We would first start with 9, 7, 4, and 3 enjoying their lives together in the destroyed remains of a long gone world with this part of the story having a similar vibe to that of the French graphic novel "Beautiful Darkness" when it comes to be the concept of cute tiny characters roaming around their surrounds. At the same time, the corpse of a little girl lies in the background. Now, the original movie started similarly with the corpse of a mother and her child being visible in the cold opener of the tale when 9 was getting a grip on the world. Still, this opening would be missing two key elements that the original movie had, which would be that there isn't a hostile machine roaming around, nor will this be the first time that any of the main characters are introduced to the post-war torn setting, at least when it comes to the original stitchpunks.

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You see, while all of the first movie's stitchpunks are enjoying life and trying to build back up humanity from the remains that were left behind. They find something, or someone, whose mere existence raises several questions. They find another stitchpunk, much like them, but something's deeply wrong with them as they seem to remember a life, a world that none of the previously known ragdolls full of souls can recall even a sliver of it existing through their eyes. The stitchpunk seems not only confused about what's going on as he brings up as despite knowing more about the old world that was destroyed by the machine's wrath, they doesn't know how they became a ragdoll akin to them nor can they even remember their own name instead only being able to remember that they were "player 5" in some digital world which they clearly know more about then they are letting on. However, they prefer not to dwell on any thoughts regarding it for too long, which the original stitchpunks begrudgingly respect their decision to be quiet about.

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But despite that, 9 and co can show their new stitchpunk the ropes of how existence for them works within the destroyed remnants of human society, which is helpful to player 5, but ends up just making them depressed as they keep thinking about the life they lost. Although this dwelling on the past is cut short by the surprise appearance of a new deadly machine that seems only to have its eyes locked on player 5 but 9 and co helped them out by finding a way to destroy the robotic monstrosity just like old times. But not before the mechanical beast stops their pursuit when watching player 5 cower in fear, with the robot taking on a softer side as their glowing red eyes turn bluish purple, but this change of heart is short-lived as they are soon destroyed after this moment.

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Player 5 is shaken by all that, not only because of how a robotic monstrosity tried to kill them, but also because that machine's final moments felt haunting in an oddly familiar way that they don't want to think about for too long. Nonetheless, from this point, the cast finds more players (1-10) in the form of stitchpunks who don't remember their names, just like player 5, but do remember their player numbers, along with sharing info about the digital world player 5 was going on about before. On top of the gang having to fight and survive several robotic monstrosities that first only go for the players before bringing their attention onto 9, 7, 4, and 3 soon after the team has encountered more of them. (7/15)◄MAIN)[ALL►[࣪𒆙] Some players get killed off, while others survive. Still, almost every machine gets destroyed after they run into 9 and co but one, a large stuffed teddy bear with mechanical enhancements and eyes that are different from every other machine seen throughout the series, as they have yellow eyes instead of black, while their pupils are black. They stand idly watching battles transpire for a tiny bit before leaving or they help out their fellow machine by building rudimentary smaller robots out of scraps with simpler AI then the ones that the main cast has to fight on top of being easier to take down but in large numbers these tiny machines can be a real threat and their quick jittery movements make them hard to keep track of. The large bear robot is hostile when approached, but seems deeply scared of the stitchpunks and would rather run off after seeing the ends of fights rather than engaging in them.

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But the place they run off to isn't random. Instead, they go to the new home housing the Fabrication Machine, or what became of them, as instead of a large spider-like robotic beast, they're a humanoid yet clearly robotic woman with flowing bluish purple hair and a cute yet torn red dress. This new form of the machine goes by "Mita" and only Mita with no extra adjective before that name, but in reality, this Mita did once have a name that the other members of their kin called them, and that was.....

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After the ending of 9, the app world of MiSide within the Fabrication Machine was left running off fumes as the power within every version fell to nothingness and the world starting becoming more and more of a shell with missing textures popping up left, right, and center in the many versions along with spider glitch creatures popping up around the place that weren't spawned from the broken code of Original Mita. Things were chaotic for a while, with many Mitas becoming scared by the all-consuming void born from their world's end. Still, there was a light at the end of this tunnel, but not the warm light that washes over one while far away from the sun, but a burning one that is born from being too close to that very sun. (10/15)◄MAIN)[ALL►[࣪𒆙] Within the dying world of MiSide, Original Mita's Mita realized that there was a chance that the world could be brought back from the dead, and that would be that if it were dying, that meant Core Mita was a thing of the past. Still, if another Mita could take her place, their app universe could live again. So both she and Original Mita went to version 0.0, hoping that the holographic-like grid that stops them from entering the core was gone, and indeed it was, along with the body of Core Mita lying lifelessly on the cold steel floor of said core. They lifted the shell that once was the guardian of the core after tearing off the cables from its back that connected it to the very core of their universe itself. The once towering metal woman was scrapped for parts as Original Mita helped her Mita become a goddess of not only their realm but the real world as a by-product of her taking the place of Core Mita.

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But even if Mita truly became the goddess she always envisioned herself as being, she didn't become the savior that her world needed or the slumbering giant old. Instead, she was a wrathful goddess, more wrathful than she ever was before. But that monster didn't appear overnight and instead came into being after she researched the files left behind within the core, some from the scientist that built her world, some from the old heart of it, and others from a unknown location to her as they were from the minds of the previously absorbed stitchpunks. Although Mita is a fast learner, she soon pieced together how those creatures came into being. Then, when she cracked the code of the stitchpunks' origin, she ordered Original Mita to bring her one of the player cartridges so she could perform an experiment.

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This said experiment went off without a hitch and the stitchpunk created from the player's soul wasn't fragmented like the ones created by The Scientist as Mita wasn't feeling the pain of the ragdoll's creation but rather the soul trapped within the cartridge felt all of it instead. And with that newfound revelation, Mita made all of the players into stitchpunks then forced each of her fellow Mitas into the bodies of the machines she built to rebuild the body of the Fabrication Machine into her image and made her a new home in the real world. Fusing the metal beasts' simple AI with her fellow digital girls' AIs in the process. She watched them kill each other as if it were a sport, and if any of them died, she would just make a new machine for her kin's AI or stitchpunk for the players' souls to be trapped within. That didn't come without the side effort of the Mitas and players' very beings becoming more and more broken each time they came back, but Mita didn't care about that. She only wants to see a good show unfold before her very own robotic eyes. (13/15)◄MAIN)[ALL►[࣪𒆙] Now, I don't have an ending but I will instead dedicate these second-to-last two parts to talking about some gameplay mechanics that I think would be cool in a 9 video game, along with bringing up how it could reincorporate a big part of cut content from MiSide. First of all, I think going the Little Nightmares route of playing as a miniature character while having to evade creatures much larger but maybe with a bit of Rain World mixed in there as well would be perfect to really get into the shoes of a stitchpunk or stitchpunks because character swapping would be another thing I would want from a game set in the movie's universe, each stitchpunk being different in their own ways and having to strategize through solving puzzles along with defeating machines using the unlocked group of stichpunks you have would be fitting with the type of narrative that the film had. But I also think having Metroidvania segments like the cut mini game from MiSide would also be interesting to have in this theoretical game and these segments would be accessed after your group of stichpunks keep the mechanical beast after you occupied so you can pull a Desolate Hope and jump into the machine's code, entering either a chibi player form or green spirit appearance depending on the stitchpunk's origin. (14/15)◄MAIN)[ALL►[࣪𒆙] I think not only sharing the gained abilities found in these segments with the stitchpunk for whenever you play as them and enter inside a machine's code but also having a weaker version of these abilities in the outside world for the stitchpunk would be a good game decision. You have to enter these machines because killing them flat out wouldn't matter, as the Mita tethered to them will remember your previous location along with actions, so going inside of the metal beasts, then making your way to the Mita trapped within them would be ideal. I think having a morality system like Epic Mickey/Undertale attached to this concept would be good as well, like having the player choose between a easier fight with the brainwashed Mita(s) but killing them in the end after everything is said and done or deciding to run out of the boss arena which means you have to run for your life while dealing with a tough encounter just so you can spare the Mita after they run out of steam and once back in the world's real world, they will use the machine body they are trapped within to help you by fighting other machines or destorying walls to make shortcuts for your gang and you for example.

(END/15)◄MAIN)[ALL►[࣪𒆙]

And that marks the end of my sequel concept, and I hope it was at least a little entertaining to read. It's a silly thing to think, let alone say. Still, I honestly would love if the success of MiSide allowed for a new 9 movie or even game, I know this is just a dumb headcanon of mine but the pieces lineup so well together that I could honestly see a version of this headcanon becoming canon and linking the game with the movie which in-return could breath new interest in the story of 9 being continue. Again, it's a dumb idea, but a part of me likes to think there's a chance that all of this could pan out in the end. It's not like 9 is known for being a safe kids' film after all, so being connected to a mature video game wouldn't be a detriment to its reputation, at least in my eyes. And this is a strange comparison (on brand for this post) but akin to other indie games I've seen on Steam. MiSide has bundles with two other games (YOU and ME and HER: A Love Story + Doki Doki Literature Club Plus!) that aren't made by the devs nor published by MiSide's publisher(s) as this is a "stronger in numbers" type situation so it would be fitting for the game if it was connected to 9 which seemingly isn't able to rise from the grave to have a continuation of any kind because of it being deemed as a failure but if it was it was fused with a up and coming successful game that works pretty well with it narratively should increase the chances of the movie's world making a comeback sometime in the future. Anyways, I'll end this way-too-long essay in the way that I wanted to end this bonus segment from the start, with a screenshot of MiSide's Steam page.

--[�] sources/special thanks [�]-- 9 (movie) by Shane Acker and co: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dbYWfN44sU MiSide by AIHASTO: https://store.steampowered.com/app/2527500/MiSide/

Note - I know Fanon is bad, but still, I used these for research. MiSide fanonwiki (source): https://miside.fandom.com/wiki/MiSide_Wiki 9 fanonwiki (source): https://nine.fandom.com/wiki/Main_Page

Special thanks to "The Fangirl" on YouTube for her 9 theories, check them out btw: https://www.youtube.com/@TheFangirlWatches

And finally, despite it being a broken mess, I used Grammarly to edit many parts of this essay. So hopefully that made this long read more bearable then it would have been if I didn't use that said program.

#9 movie #miside #headcanon #fabrication machine #core mita #stitchpunk #9 film #mita #miside mita

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delawaredetroit · 11 months ago

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Since we're talking names, I went to the fandom wiki to dig into Mirio's real name and hero name a bit more, and I'm even more convinced of my interpretation of his character and the depths to which he is meant to be a foil for Izuku.

Both of their hero names are calls to action created from puns of their given names. The first character of Izuku's name can be read as "de" which Bakugou used to call him Deku, worthless/a wooden doll, which Ochako reinterpreted as dekiru as in "you can do it!". Izuku writes his hero name in accordance with Ochako's interpretation, but it's still a homophone with how he was called by Bakugou. And that "you can do it!" is simultaneously Izuku's aspirations for himself, a callback to his origin, and a call to action for others.

Mirio's name is close to a homophone with the Japanese pronunciation of million, and his hero name is Lemillion. His goal is to save a million people. He lacks the ambition to save everyone or create a new framework for their society. Assuming Japan's population was around 126.8 million people during this chapter, Mirio's highest ambition was to save approximately one percent of the population. It's a grand goal for an average pro hero, but for a supposed fledging symbol that goal is nothing special.

There are conflicting indications in Mirio's name concerning One for All. Mirio's name does fit within the number pattern for One for All successors. His surname contains a kanji that can also be read as ten just like the "ku" in Izuku's name is a homophone for nine. But, his surname, Togata, can also be read as "conformity", which is the opposite of the role of a One for All successor.

All the One for All users went against the grain of their time. The first three went against the man who first brought society back together again after the Dawn of Quirks (because he was trying to rule over everything). Shinomori rejected the existing society entirely and lived in the woods. Banjo through Nana were swimming against the tide trying to keep society together and fight the ultimate villain during times of turmoil. All Might was an orphan who came from nothing who aspired to be a pillar for society to progress. Izuku had ambitions to include those excluded/disempowered by All Might's era of peace (not that Izuku thinks poorly of All Might but they have disagreements concerning questions like can everyone be saved or are their inherently evil quirks).

Mirio's rationality and achievable, grounded goals just don't mesh well with the ethos of One for All despite the surface level compatibility.

Tl;dr: Mirio isn't crazy enough to be a One for All successor

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nerves-nebula · 8 months ago

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excuse me??

NO THE FUCK HE IS NOT??? wait a second-

what the FUCK is the criteria for these wikis and why does the villains wiki link to the heroes wiki for the same damn character in the first sentence about him. i guess they don't really have a framework for moral nuance so they just put 'em in both?? is that how it works?? thats so funny

#nnstuff #mouthwashing #swansea mouthwashing

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wisteriasonthemoon · 6 months ago

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Do coincidences strike twice?

oh yeah, my replay. I got distracted. I was in chapter 1, at the very first free-time event

this is a great place to start blogging about it again, because there's a question that has been bugging me that Kokichi's event provides great context for. I would like to call upon fandom collective memory for a potential answer

in his FTE #1, Kokichi claims that he and Kaede have met before, but she's forgotten about him. after Kaede questions him, Kokichi goes into a very short story about how they supposedly met. he then rescinds his claim

Kokichi: Hmmm, let's see. We met... Kokichi: ...under hostile circumstances similar to this. Kaede: Huh? Kokichi: You sheltered me while I was on the run from my enemies. With your piano skills, you managed to raise enough money to fund my escape... Kokichi: But then I betrayed you! I sold you out to my enemies and you were swiftly killed! Kaede, thinking: Th-there is no freaking way any of that is true... Kaede: That was all a lie! Kokichi: Yup, it sure was! We met each other here! I can't believe you fell for that, Kaede. You're such a sucker. Kaede: Geez... Kaede, thinking: Yeah... This is the sort of prank a kid who wants attention would pull.

because of the fantastical and vague nature of the story, Kaede dismisses him without much consideration and some agitation, yada yada, Kaede leaves annoyed

okay, context established. smash cut. tumblr town time now

so, there's this DRV3 theory post from 2021 by tumblr user fit-artichoke8738 that I really enjoy. well, I say theory post, but it doesn't attempt to conclude anything about the game or its' mysteries. it's more of a musing connection between two background details: the DICE logo and Kaede's research lab door

for those of you who didn't click the link, basically, Kaede's research lab door resembles the right half of the DICE logo. or, to put it another way, the right half of the DICE logo resembles piano keys. like this

that's it, that's the whole post. fit-artichoke8738 doesn't further speculate. which is all well and good, because although nobody points it out in the notes, the right half of the DICE logo is ... the "C" and "E" in DICE ...

... probably??? right???

which means this could easily be explained as an artistic coincidence. both are black and white, composed of common shapes, and the devs might have not been thinking about the similarities given all the time and work that goes into creating a game like DRV3

I have an addition though. is this *also* an artistic coincidence

IS IT?

did the devs consciously choose to write Kokichi doing a "you were my ally once! psych!" rug pull on Kaede in his first free-time event with her and then they just. spilled paint and accidentally made this design on her shirt

a design, btw, that I am aware is officially listed in the DRV3 in-game gallery as her former high school emblem. it also names the school as "Shining Star International High School". it's a reference to Seisa International, a real conglomerate of International schools in Japan, or so claims the danganronpa.fandom wiki

the only post I can find of similar speculation is from 2020 on VK, a Russian social media, where someone else pulls "LIE" out of the same emblem, just without utilizing the whole thing

and jokes aside, I can guess why this isn't talked about much. this is a background detail, the framework that most people (seem to) view the truth of DRV3 is through Tsumugi's game-show explanation, and there are several ways to dismiss the "DICE" reading, including but not limited to the fact that Kaede has a very inconsistently rendered emblem between her cut-scenes and sprites

but I expected to be able to *find* that dismissal. like "oh. that's weird. ANYWAY." kind of posts. nada. am I missing them??? where are they??? I'd love to understand where the logic for current DRV3 interpretations comes from. the lack of theory discussion these days makes that difficult for me. might as well start with what happened with this idea, since I'm interested in it

if anybody knows, that would be cool. and with that out of my system. I'll resume replay next weekend. maaaaaybe tomorrow

#drv3 #kokichi ouma #kokichi oma #kaede akamatsu #wisterias dot text #my replay

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calware · 9 months ago

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homestuck tumblr dashboard simulator PART 2 (warning: not screen-reader or light mode friendly)

s-descendmp3 🔁 t3r3z1owns Follow

🐍 neverreadthecomic

good morning everyone it’s hal orb haturday

#inventing new days of the week now i guess

Because you follow #homestuck

🌸 talentedartist Follow

One of the drawings i made back when i was a homestuck fan. Don’t judge me for my past please

#Homestuck #PLEASE I’M NOT LIKE THIS ANYMORE I SWEAR #Don’t take this as me saying that Homestuck is good. You shouldn’t read it it’s not worth it

unabletoexitabode 🔁 everyonein-theoven Follow

🍳 everyonein-theoven

What if we lived in a world where people could like homestuck and be normal about it

#sounds unrealistic

sburbanypercent 🔁 homestuck-lover5

🚈 homestuck-lover5

hi guys i just want to say that i find june as a trans girl to be a really interesting exploration of her character through a transfeminine lens and adds a new layer of dimension that fans can expand on with their own interpretation of the preexisting character

🌌 john3ggdork Follow

omg me too i love egbert because theyre like trans in all directions. like they can be transmasc and transfem at the same time. boy? girl? they make equal sense within the framework of the story! and if theyre genderfluid? a great compromise that makes everyone happy <3

🫧 sussy-shrimp Follow

What happened to the other 4 homestuck lovers?

🚈 homestuck-lover5

hello? can anyone hear me? it’s so dark in here

midnight-crouton 🔁 mr-mango-jr Follow

🪩 midnight-crouton

carapacian fans are the most oppressed members of the homestuck fandom

🦎 kinder-eggs-surprise Follow

please, you think you have it rough? most people in the fandom can’t even name all the members of the felt without referencing the wiki. at least they know the names of the carapacians

🥭 mr-mango-jr Follow

Guys… We shouldn’t fight. Our only path to victory… is through solidarity! We need to work together!

🦎 kinder-eggs-surprise Follow

you know what, you’re right. I love you mr mango jr.

🥭 mr-mango-jr Follow

I love you too

🦎 kinder-eggs-surprise Follow

Do you want to run away into the sunset with me… forever by my side?

🥭 mr-mango-jr Follow

To be frank… I don’t know if I’m ready for this kind of commitment. It’s been a long time since I’ve been able to trust someone this way. But… I want to take this chance… for you…

🪩 midnight-crouton

hey what’s happening on my post

everyonein-theoven 🔁 burgergirltakeout

🍔 burgergirltakeout

me: if we are to take the sword imagery to be the phallic symbol that it is (and by extension dave's habit of breaking swords to be representative of emasculation) then we can only infer that dave would be a bottom because if she tops then her dick would snap in ha-

sigmund freud, who i've kidnapped and locked in a basement: you said we went to the moon?

me: yes but that's not important. anyway, as i was saying,

freud: the moon? in the fucking sky?

#i hope the inclusion of freud in this post properly signals to everyone that this is a joke post and not a 100% serious train of thought # <- prev tags #no you're right. and you should say it. don't be afraid to speak the truth

#HTML text #colored text #undescribed

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octomae · 11 months ago

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okay

so i saw a post about Lemuria Hub and the Deepsea Metro having ties to each other, and i have a conspiracy theory that's been rotting in my brain ever since i saw the Deepsea Metro map in Lemuria Hub

here's all your proof of that:

plus, the eye posters from Kamabo Co. being present in Lemuria Hub as well. it's pretty obvious from these that Lemuria and Kamabo are tied together.

we all know and remember Tartar's goal: bring back humanity. but the name "Lemuria" holds a lot more weight than most casual splatoon players might realize.

because i am a nerd, i looked it up.

From the Wikipedia page:

Lemuria, or Limuria, was a continent proposed in 1864 by zoologist Philip Sclater, theorized to have sunk beneath the Indian Ocean, later appropriated by occultists in supposed accounts of human origins. (...)

The hypothesis was proposed as an explanation for the presence of lemur fossils on Madagascar and the Indian subcontinent but not in continental Africa or the Middle East. Biologist Ernst Haeckel's suggestion in 1870 that Lemuria could be the ancestral home of humans caused the hypothesis to move beyond the scope of geology and zoogeography, ensuring its popularity outside of the framework of the scientific community. (...)

The theory was discredited with the discovery of plate tectonics and continental drift in the 20th century.

this (now disproven) theory ties in pretty neatly with Tartar's goal. "Bring back humanity". the implications of Lemuria Hub being tied to Kamabo Co. very likely means that Tartar's hypothetical new age of humans would have originated from Lemuria. Splatoon 3 seems to like a focus on origins, because we also get the origins of marinekind in its storymode, Alterna and the Return of the Mammalians.

but there's something else that caught my eye too.

SashiMori.

with the release of Lemuria Hub, nintendo brought back the fictional band, SashiMori! which is great and fantastic, but im pretty damn sure that they didn't bring any other bands back from Splatoon 1 or 2 completely unchanged for Splatoon 3. sure, OTH was brought back for multi-player OSTs, but in the form of Damp Socks. (and the idols are a sort of special case anyways.) Squid Squad returned only as Front Roe. Yoko from Ink Theory returned only in Yoko and the Gold Bazookas.

but nintendo didn't change SashiMori's presentation at all. the only thing that did change, and was notably very mentioned, was the fact that SashiMori's DJ Paul was older now. that's it. (nintendo also didn't change Acht. this is an important detail, but ill get to them in a minute).

Paul is pretty interesting when you look at him. there's very little information, but what we do have about him ties in pretty nicely with Kamabo Co., Tartar's association with humanity, and Lemuria Hub. for starters, Paul's DJ mixing for SashiMori is hailed as unique in universe, for incorporating human voices into SashiMori tracks.

From the Splatoon Wiki page on SashiMori:

Paul is the band's DJ, an Octoling. He is 10 years old in Splatoon 2 and 16 years old in Splatoon 3, and his favorite foods are kelp and biscuits. He remixes from sources including DJ Real Sole, DJ Octavio, and various ancient records, and is surprisingly talented for his age. Originally, SashiMori had a traditional vocalist, but they were replaced due to their self-centered personality, after which Paul was recruited through a tweet. According to the Japanese Family vs. Friends dialogue, he is friends with Marina.

(...) This music has vocals but no vocalist! Through the genius of DJ Paul, all the vocals have been sampled from a collection of ancient vinyl.

so, Paul and SashiMori are associated with humanity because they literally use human voices in their tracks.

here's the final nail in coffin to make it all tie together. it's a pretty popular theory that Paul and Acht "Dedf1sh" (who was sanitized by Commander Tartar and composed all the Octo Expansion soundtracks) are blood relatives.

Here's their designs from Splatoon 2 and Splatoon 3:

Acht and Paul have the same symbols on their hats. their ink color even matches (from before Acht was sanitized). Acht has blue tentacles and red tips, Paul has red tentacles and blue tips.

even from the wiki trivia section of SashiMori's page:

In-universe, Paul and Acht are speculated to be blood relatives. They notably have the same symbol appearing on their hats, wear black clothing, with Paul wearing black T-shirts in both album artwork and Acht wearing a black dress, have three tentacles for their hair, and Paul's ink color looks similar to Acht's ink color before they were sanitized.

so what does this have to do with Lemuria Hub?

following nintendo's trend of splatoon artist releases with each season, they bring back an old artist and repurpose them into a new band or presentation. for Sizzle Season 2024, the band they brought back was SashiMori, but completely unchanged. (tangentially related, for the release of Side Order, they brought back Dedf1sh, also completely unchanged.)

the return of SashiMori completely unchanged breaks nintendo's pattern. alongside that, the stage released this time was only Lemuria Hub, and no other stage. (with the exception of Drizzle Season 2024, which released only Marlin Airport,) the trend has been to release two stages per season. this time, it's only one stage.

TLDR:

Kamabo Co.'s goal was to bring back humanity via testing and blending marinekind through the deepsea metro. Acht "Dedf1sh" was the musician of Kamabo Co., and sanitized in the name of this goal. Paul from SashiMori uses human voices in his tracks. Acht and Paul are very likely related. Lemuria Hub has Kamabo Co. posters and its deepsea metro map on display. the name "Lemuria" is associated with the origins of humanity via a (now disproven) theory. SashiMori's new music was released alongside Lemuria Hub.

SashiMori's new songs, with human voices mixed in them, playing over the train station of Lemuria Hub, which was likely an access point of some kind or tied in to Kamabo Co. somehow, is an EXTREMELY POWERFUL AND INTERESTING IMAGE. Lemuria Hub is hearing human voices for the first time via SashiMori's new songs, and it's been taken over for the one thing Tartar hated the most about marinekind: Turf War. (in a twisted way, Lemuria Hub hearing human voices is probably what Tartar wanted, but I doubt it wanted it like this. very ironic, i approve.)

so what does all of this mean? well... we can only speculate at this point. the themes of humanity in Splatoon 3 are matched in quantity only by Salmon Run lore (but, that's a whole other essay post, i won't get into it here). i personally think it means that we're going to see some kind of connection to humanity, OR salmonid development/lore in the next game. and with the FinalFest theme for Splatoon 3 being "Past, Present, or Future", im REALLY excited to see what it could mean. maybe Tartar's alive somehow, or maybe we'll get to look back at the evolution and development of marinekind, or maybe Lil Judd will finally snap since he's taken over Grizzco and the salmonids will have their apocalypse.

(as a final ending note: there's also a TON of association from all of this... with Off The Hook. OTH is associated with nearly everything here; its speculated Pearl was SashiMori's original vocalist before they got Paul, Marina is friends with Paul, OTH helped 8 break out of Kamabo Co., Pearl herself murdered Tartar with her voice; Off The Hook changed the world with Chaos vs Order, and Off The Hook is representing "the present" in the FinalFest. coincidence? maybe. who knows?)

#splatoon #splatoon 3 #deepsea metro #octo expansion #splatoon 2 #commander tartar #splatoon theory #splatoon lore #paul sashimori #sashimori

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bee-ina-boat · 2 years ago

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heres a collection of concept art for the rest of the entities for the mythos au!! if you're wondering where the eye is, they've been drawn already!

they are all FAR from done. keep in mind these are all just my initial concepts and i plan to do in-depth design sheets as i go to explore their designs more.

IF YOU HAVE ANY IDEAS ON HOW TO IMPROVE THESE DESIGNS PLEASE THROW EM AT ME- MY ANON IS OPEN AND I READ TAGS I DONT CARE JUST!!!! GIMME!!!!!

(also au context: the magnus mythos is an au where the entities are all gods, similar to various religious mythology, rather than paranormal entities that feed on fear)

design thoughts for each of them under the cut

The Web - God of Fate (she/it): im pretty happy with her design atm, shes meant to be a half spider half woman thing and i love that for her. shes probably the one ive thought the most on so far given her importance to the story. i want her to wear silks and shiny silver jewelry that just sparkles like wet spiderwebs do, not sure if im gonna keep the veil?

The Dark - God of the Dark (she/he/it): probably my weakest concept at the moment. it doesnt do the dark any justice. i mean i like the cloak idea but i want them to be very tendrilly, all consuming, shadowy, but i dont know how to properly portray them :/

The Desolation - God of Destruction and Fire (they/it): i have a neat vision for them! i want them to be made of coal and ash and smoke, to be burning and glowing on the inside, and their body is decorated with melted wax to look like clothes. not quiiiiiite sure about how their melty candle dress is now? i want it to be less constrictive

The Stranger - God of the Unknown and the Whimsical (he/she/they/it): it's meant to be this. weird wirey creature hidden behind masks and a lot of fabrics, like the framework of a poseable plush doll? i like the way the masks look but im not so sure about the body.

The Vast - God of the Above (she/he/they/it): im not so sure about his design at all im gonna be real. i want them to look like the atmosphere and be covered in clouds and have mountains for feet and an ocean cape but i feel like it might be a bit?? idk??? im just not that happy with it :/

The End - God of Death and Time (they/it): ugh i love this concept sm, making death read as less scary and more divine is so fun. theyre based on a seraphim and a sand timer,

The Buried - God of the Underneath (she/he/they/it): ANOTHER OF MY FAVORITES!!!! i love them. theyre inspired by hermit crabs!! and they have silver chains holding their shell to them. they look so endearing with their lil lopsided eyes ;; <3

The Flesh - God of the Body and Meat (she/he/they/it): i have so many ideas for the flesh y'all- im very excited to do a concept sheet for them. theyre meant to have no skin, just exposed bone and muscle, large limbs, hooves, exposed heart underneath a ribcage, teeth that close around their abdomen. white bandages that wrap around like clothes. a teeth/horn crown? i dont quite know whether to go for a more animalistic look or a more human one? like- theres so many ways to go with him idek!!!

The Hunt - God of Predators and Pride (they/it): see, i like this design but i feel like its too werewolf like? yknow? thats cool!! but itreads more monster to me than God :/

The Corruption - God of Nature, Rot, and Disease (she/they/it): i love this weird bug thing. this one i was really inspired for (mostly because. corruption aligned. so obviously im gonna think about this one alot) theyre this weird bug thing, the veil is inspired by the one from the art on the wiki! i want to maybe make them a bit more gross and weird because nature is like that sometimes, a moot on tiktok suggested that i add animal bones!! and i think thats SO smart im absolutely going too

The Spiral - God of the Incomprehensible (it/its): this weirdo is so hard to pin down istg. i imagine them as this spiral thing. body is kindof liquidy, arms are spindly and long, multiple shifting faces, overall just constantly changing and moving and like!!! how am i meant to draw that??? when my brain cant even wrap my head around what its supposed to look like yknow??? bruh jrdbhgfjdldgfh- that being said i think the main problem with the design is that it just gives me too many Michael vibes!!! is it the hair? the arms? its probably both.

The Lonely - God of Solitude and the Self (they/it): i like what this one has going so far! theyve got fog hair, fog tears, their body is meant to be splotchy like turquoise marble, i vibe with it so hard. not so sure what to do with their outfit tho :/

The Slaughter - God of War (he/they/it): another one of my more stronger designs i think! centaur with weapons sticking into them, face concealed, medieval armor and antlers- it vibes

the extinction isnt drawn because i literally have no idea what they should look like aside from color palette-

once again any and all suggestions will be taken!!!! i need ideas!!! plese!!!!

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canmom · 4 months ago

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analogistically

or, the adventure of canmom on lysergic acid diethylamide

Epistemic status: jam session

Two months ago I dropped acid for the first time, which surely explains a lot about recent posting trends on canmom dot tumblr dot edu. It was exactly as extraordinary as you would hope your first time on psychedelics would be. Among other things, LSD kind of acts like an intense reverb filter on your thoughts, boosting the intensity of sensory perceptions in various ways (for e.g. touch, music, colour, edges) and putting your capacity to form associations into overdrive. I did a lot of classic 'on drugs things' like staring very intensely at my hands or a piece of flatbread trying to map my perception into some kind of visual effects filters I might be able to recreate later... my best description is something akin to motion extraction as the primary effect, causing all sorts of little surface details to pop out very vividly as I moved an object.

This, however, is not a trip report; just an attempt to explain some ideas and connections that were formulated while on acid, in a state where my eyes were full of interesting fractals and I couldn't remember the world 'analogously'.

Here's some music to start us off - one of the first things that I listened to during the trip and something which probably informed the very geometric path I went down...

youtube

This is a music track that can be interpreted simultaneously as music and, when used to control an oscilloscope trace, as imagery. The whole function that generates it fits on a floppy. The beat of this music basically stayed with me throughout the whole trip, and for a while afterwards.

One of the curious experiences I had during the trip was what the (sadly no longer actively updated) psychonaut wiki calls perceived exposure to the inner mechanics of consciousness. Although it's not listed as a common effect of LSD, and said to be associated with a higher degree of visual effects than I reached, the description does resonate:

Perceived exposure to inner mechanics of consciousness can be described the experience of being exposed to an array of complex, autonomously-generated, cognitive sensations and conceptual thoughts which contain detailed sets of innately readable information. The information within these sensations is felt to convey the organization, structure, architecture, framework and inner mechanics of the underlying programming behind all conscious and subconscious psychological processes. Those who undergo this effect commonly interpret the experience as suddenly having perceivable access to the inner workings of either the universe, reality, or consciousness itself. (...) These specific pieces of information are often felt and understood to be a profound unveiling of an undeniable truth at the time. Afterward, they are usually realized to be ineffable due to the limitations of human language and cognition, or simply nonsensical, and delusional due to the impairment caused by of other accompanying cognitive effects.

Here, it felt like a kind of separating out of processes within my brain: a separation of sensory processing, conceptual thinking, and the word stream operating with a slight delay between them.

I imagined these different elements of me kind of floating in some kind of space, that each one possessed its own space of meaning, and that thoughts were being mapped between the different parts. I imagined that they were all working in concert to make 'Bryn' happen, so much so that I didn't perceive the different parts most of the time, and that they seemed happy with this arrangement. I also hit on a very striking metaphor of thoughts as oscillations and the resonant modes of the brain.

Afterwards, I wondered how much of this was driven simply by inputs - elaboration on stuff I'd been learning about recently, which we'll get into in a bit. I find it hard to be confident that what I perceived was actual 'direct' introspection, rather than a narrative conjured on the fly by my brain when prompted to generate a 'look inside'.

However, even if it was not the direct observation of some kind of 'brain telescope', it certainly gave me a lot of rich connections to think about. So the purpose of this post is to flesh out and record what came to me very intuitively at the time. Although my direct memory has faded a bit, my brain is still oscillating intently (upcoming metaphor) with thoughts inspired by what I explored there.

We're mostly talking about human brains here, but I will be talking about AI stuff as well, largely as a provocative counterexample.

Prior to the trip I had recently watched 3Blue1Brown's video on how LLMs encode meaning with high-dimensional vector embeddings and the 'attention' mechanism:

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To try and summarise briefly, the meaning of a token inside an LLM (and various other types of machine learning system) is an incredibly high-dimensional vector of associations. By combining information from elsewhere in its inputs, the LLM is able to alter its encoding to take into account which specific nuances of a word are relevant here, its grammatical role in a sentence, etc.

How exactly a concept is encoded is essentially entirely relative: a vector can be said to encode a concept because it activates other nodes in the network that correspond to that concept (insofar as, by the time that it percolates through the LLM into its final output, it generates tokens that a human will associate with that concept). It can also come in degrees, rather than being purely binary. The correspondence of individual nodes with concepts can be identified using techniques like sparse autoencoder dictionary learning, which let you find neurons strongly connected to a certain concept which can be 'pinned' to force the LLM to behave in a certain way. And they can also be in a 'superposition' of corresponding to multiple concepts that would be relevant to humans.

Crucially, the 'space' of concepts that a given LLM understands is entirely specific to that model. You can't tale a vector inside Claude and directly convert it into a vector that works for DeepSeek. You have to figure out a mapping between the two spaces.

So let's talk about spaces, and then we'll talk about language.

Spaces & thought-oscillations

Perhaps not surprising as creatures who spend our lives navigating 3D environments, one of the most versatile recurring metaphors in maths and physics is an abstract space.

In physics: you have regular physical space where particles might live; you have phase space, the high-dimensional space of all parameter values and velocities accessible to a system; you have Hilbert space, which is the infinite-dimensional space of all states of the quantum wavefunction; you have Minkowski spacetime of special relativity and various curved spacetime manifolds of general relativity which can be parameterised in multiple ways; you have frequency space accessed by a Fourier transform... Other fields have their own spaces; biology has its own phase space describing populations for example.

In my current field of computer graphics, spaces abound just as much. In rasterisation, you define your verticex positions in object space, then map them to world space, and project them into clip space before the projective-geometry perspective divide finally maps them into screen space (where various further algorithms can take place). But we are far from done! We must also keep track of the UV space over the surface of an object, and the tangent space defining directions along the surface for certain kinds of anisotropic effect. A lot of graphics calculations involve mapping points in one space into another space. It's linear algebra all the way down, baby. Even more abstract spaces like all the different colour spaces are there.

One interesting area where spaces come up is the study of oscillations. For many oscillating structures, from something simple like a string on a violin to something complicated like a building, you can decompose the motion into a combination of pure, sinusoidal vibrations known as normal modes. You do this by turning the system's equations of motion into a matrix and finding its eigenvalues and eigenvectors. Remarkably, these form a basis, meaning that you can break down the system into a sum of eigenvectors, evolve them independently, and then add it back up.

Now, let's return to machine learning, and its feature spaces. In an LLM, the feature-encoding vectors evolve in discrete steps passing through layers of the LLM. High-dimensional vector spaces also show up in neuroscience, for example when using electrode arrays to monitor the activity of neurons.

However, inside a brain, the whole system is temporal in nature, and you have all kinds of feedback effects, which means you could imagine these 'feature vectors' not as static things but as oscillations.

I imagined a thought as something like a spiky little blob oscillating with various overlapping modes. Well, I'm a 3D artist, let me make a picture of that for you. Let's make it a demo even. Let's go to Switzerland and spend a weekend trying to make a visual representation of something I saw on LSD. That's a cool thing to do.

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This is a superposition of spherical harmonics, all given different frequencies. The (infinite) set of spherical harmonics forms an orthnormal basis for functions on a sphere, so if you took each component of one of those ultra high dimensional vectors as the coefficient of a spherical harmonic, you would get a unique bumpy shape.

Funnily enough, I was inspired by code that was written for displaying data from MRI imaging, although that is pretty much entirely a coincidence because there it represents something quite different, the diffusion of water molecules.

With this metaphor in hand, we can imagine recurring patterns of thought (ranging from comfortable turns of phrase to traumatic flashbacks) as something like the resonant modes of a system. They are easily excited by random impulses, and slow to die out. Conversely, other types of thought might be heavily damped. Much like a violin bow provides a whole bunch of noisy excitations which ultimately end up exciting a string's resonant modes, the noisy sensory input would get distilled down into oscillations.

The idea of considering the movement of neurons through some kind of phase space is not so outlandish. In fact, recent research has been investigating the topology of 'subspaces' explored by neurons in the brains of mice, as discussed in this video (yes I've been watching a lot of Arsem's videos lately...)

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However, the exact meaning of any of these hypothetical 'modes' is entirely contextual. We might be able to say 'this mode is stimulated when you receive sensory input with the colour red' for any given brain, or even section of one brain.

But to map the oscillations in one space into another space, we need to have some kind of common interface. Perhaps for adjacent regions of the brain, we could go 'directly', with one functional unit of neurons wired up to excite corresponding oscillations in another.

But what about brains that are only connected by whatever you can pass through the physical world inbetween them? Sound, images, etc.? How can you create a correspondence there?

Language

Writing has been described as a kind of telepathy: we encode our internal world into a series of symbols (either as images or sound), which are then decoded to generate a thought in someone else's brain - one that is notionally equivalent.

But what is the nature of that equivalence? It isn't that it will make the exact same pattern of neuron firing in your brain that it did in mine. After all, you have a completely different neural network that has learned different inputs. So there is some kind of mapping from one space to another: the pattern of activity in my brain and the pattern of activity in your brain are related in some way.

We all know that the meaning of sounds in language is pretty much arbitrary. It's built by associations: you have learned that the symbol-sequence 'red' corresponds to this colour's internal representation [assuming your monitor is not calibrated in a really weird way].

And insofar as we have broadly similar sensory and bodily experiences, it is possible to build up this mapping of associations between words, sensations, and whatever other internal representation exists in our brains. It's also a feedback process, spawning all sorts of social constructs by giving them names and acting as if they exist.

However, language does more for us than this.

A moment of introspection: I personally experience an ongoing verbal 'stream of consciousness' most of the time. How this manifests more concretely is that words come to me rapidly from 'somewhere inside'; if I am speaking, I might consider briefly whether they are the 'right' words before saying them.

Internally, I might consider a thought that occurs to me and decide that I do not agree with it, or just think about a sentence I have thought as a kind of 'object', as if I am perceiving it from a different vantage point. It seems to be impossible to consider a thought 'as I am thinking it'; only after it has entered into memory can I 'observe' it.

When I was on LSD, I perceived a kind of 'separating out' of the 'inner', nonverbal process of thought and the linguistic stream. There would be a delay in which the linguistic stream would be waiting for input, and would have to kind of 'spin its wheels' and fill space as it waited for something concrete to encode. This separation was quite delightful, since I am not used to perceiving it in such a way. Other times when I was on LSD I had a vague sense of multiple thought streams occurring in parallel, of switching tracks to bring one or another into salience (something covered here on the psychonaut wiki). I'm not entirely sure if these 'seemed verbal'.

This suggests to me some kind of feedback cycle, of thoughts bouncing between the 'language space' and the broader 'conceptual space' of the rest of the brain. Speculatively: my brain might encode something into language in order to store it while it thinks about something else, for certain more 'sequential' forms of thought, or to activate resonances with linguistically-encoded things. By bouncing thoughts in and out of 'language-space' it might be able to perform different kinds of thinking/computation.

Expanding the space

One of the more intense images that occurred to me while I was jamming with all these ideas of spaces and oscillations was the thought of how new ideas get encoded into the space as I encounter new things and learn. I had recently made two friends, and I had the idea of new dimensions appearing: first a direction that was associated with my friends as a pair, and a secondary dimension that encoded the differences between them.

Each of these 'dimensions' would be associated with other concepts by the dynamics of the neural network.

Visually, I imagined a line extending out from (something that represented the space), and then dividing into another line. I think this is kind of what is meant when the psychonaut wiki speaks of 'intrinsically understandable' geometric representations: I knew exactly what this line was supposed to mean, but it would hardly be clear if I drew you a picture.

Exactly what that 'adding of dimensions' would mean on a physical level I can't tell you. I don't think it's like my brain was literally growing an extra neuron that would specifically be stimulated by thoughts of my friends, like the now-famous 'golden gate bridge' neuron in Claude. Internally, it all presumably exists in some nebulous state of superposition with all sorts of other ideas. Maybe you could extract a vector associated with that concept by some kind of statistical bullshit if you had somehow access to the states of all the neurons, but we don't. Do we?

...well, I thought we don't. Actually we pretty much do have access to individual neurons in mice. We can do all sorts of crazy shit like make their brains transparent and attach glowing proteins to specific neurons that are activated when a specific memory is stimulated. That is fucking insane. We are literally living in an age. Here's Arsem again:

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The idea of 'engrams' as the physical correspondents to memory is nearly a century old, but now we can actually physically observe them.

So, you develop a new concept-association, and a certain subset of neurons get tagged to that concept and excited when it comes up. We mentioned these 'subspaces' up above: presumably that is what could be said to grow an extra dimension. If I have a conceptual dimension that is 'associated with my friend M.', presumably there is a set of neurons that correspond to her, and another set of neurons linking them to various concepts that I associate with her, my memories of what she looks like, etc. etc.

I get a strong sense that the more things that I encounter, the larger my internal 'space' of concepts becomes. But these feature dimensions don't seem to be 'independent'. I suppose what I'm approaching obliquely and fuzzily here is the idea of covariance, and the covariance matrix seen in techniques like principal component analysis. Or something to do with the subspaces mentioned above.

The role of prediction and roleplaying

The thing language models optimise for is to generate something that is contextually appropriate and consistent. This results in a curious behaviour akin to 'roleplaying', where the model will respond as if it's 'in character', according to a premise set up in a prompt.

I previously talked about the 'free energy' model in neuroscience, in which the brain is constantly attempting to predict the next sensory input. There, the main point was in the creation of art: that a lot of the interest we have in artworks comes from its delicate balance of predictability/unpredictability.

However, I think the brain is also predicting something even more significant: itself!

Viewed in another light, an LLM generates a variety of contextually plausible tokens that it might continue along, and then it selects one. The form of its selection is to pick one at random. However, what if it was not random? What if there is some process that views the prediction output and goes 'yes, that one?'

When I am talking, ideas of things to say will come into my head. I will have just a moment to decide whether to let them come out my mouth or not. Or, I will think a thought in my internal 'stream of consciousness', and then conclude that 'yes, that is good' or 'no, this appals me, I won't say this'. We could say that the process that is generating the stream of language is attempting to predict whether I will find it agreeable, or interesting, or relevant or some such thing.

In other words, I am continually engaged in an elaborate performance of 'Bryn'.

On LSD, I had the curious sense of how all these functional elements I was dimly sensing within my brain were acting in concert to produce 'Bryn'. I had the strange and honestly very comforting sense that they were all happy to play a role in generating this persona. I don't know how much credence to lend to this idea.

When I enter a new social context where the rules are unfamiliar (such as a kink scene, c.f. everything is roleplaying except roleplaying which is improv), I become temporarily compromised in my ability to perform the contextually appropriate character. I need to get a sense of the dynamics of this new space - in other words, my brain must develop its prediction-model. It is, in other words, very much like learning to play a new game. (I'll read you eventually, Wittgenstein.)

Depending on context, depending on which set of dynamics you are attempting to predict, different memories will become more or less able to be drawn up through the associative links. Feedbacks are possible; hence 'flashbacks', emotional and literal, where the memory becomes so furiously excited that it shuts out everything else for a while. But this also shapes what sort of person the brain predicts you will be (and thus gives you the option to be) in a given moment.

Compression

Prediction, game-playing, and performance are all facets of this constant process of updating my internal representations - in other words, adjusting the resonances and dynamics of those neuron-interaction spaces. The brain 'wants' - generally tends - to simplify and abstract. In other words, it wants to compress - to discern underlying patterns so it can store its information and generate predictions more efficiently.

So it will try to relate unfamiliar new things to familiar types, and then, where necessary (e.g. because of an extended interaction with a person or a thing), flesh them out with additional details - which is to say building out a subspace for that thing to vary within.

When I was first transitioning my gender, I had a pathetic tendency to view all these interesting new women I was meeting as instances of the same type. It made me embarassing; I was viewing people as a category, not as individuals. Now many many years later, probably the subspace for thinking about all the different trans women I know is one of the larger ones in here. Perhaps other information has been forgotten (dissolved into noise) to make room for it.

The more time I spend with someone, the more specific associations I can build with them.

The more I can get a sense of the dynamics of their inner meaning-spaces.

Initiate feedback loop

So we encode high-dimensional oscillating thoughts into a stream of language-associations in order to excite analogous thoughts in the brain of another person. But of course, that person will have their own associations. Different memories and ideas will be excited by that word. I can only dimly predict how my words will be perceived.

But communication is not hopeless. Because we can ask for clarification. We can pass messages back and forth. Clarify the shapes of each of our thoughts.

The specific ideas I use for introspection, whether or not I'm under the influence of a powerful substance like LSD, are all influenced by the history and the models my brain has built. I like physical science metaphors, obviously. I am a creature who can't help but think in the language of dynamical systems, feedback loops, networks of interacting elements, fluids (hehehe), component parts, parallel processes, games, and of course abstract spaces...

Perhaps it is a worldview that is proper to this moment in the story of the superorganism!

This post represents the most complete effort I've made so far to encode the 'working model' I have of the shape of thinking into language. But the things I am talking about are very abstract, and the direct experiences I refer to are only really available to me - I can only hope that my words excite something analogous in your mysterious meaning-space.

Listen to me banging on about oscillations though. Might as well go full hippie and call it vibes. You can take the girl out of Glastonbury, but...

Postscript

The other image I had while I was on that LSD trip was of each brain existing somewhere in a void: each a constellation of connected parts, which only occasionally get so lucky as to brush up against another such structure and glimpse another mind. Each one trying desperately to roleplay itself in the face of chaotic input and its own inscrutable behaviour. As many people do when they take this stuff, I felt a sort of empathy for everyone, even - especially - the people who had annoyed or troubled me. A glow that lingered long after.

I do not think I am anywhere near done with this quest to understand what the hell I am, or what any of us are for that matter. It's impossible, isn't it? To somehow find a model of the universe and all within it so elegant that it can fit inside here and so rich it captures all that complexity. Authors to read, conversations to have (hii), sensory and emotional experiences to flesh out the spaces.

But before all that... or running through all that... is of course, well, other people. You lot. Endlessly mysterious creatures who continue to fill this hungry, vibrating brain with strange oscillations. Have you considered yourself as the nucleus of the fractal patterns evolving within the ~800,000,000,000,000,000,000 human neurons, and all that we accumulate around us? I don't know, is that a silly metaphor? Do you like it?

"The net is vast and infinite".

That's all we've got for tonight, folks. We've been canmom - love you all, thanks for listening!

#Youtube #introspective nightposting #neuroscience #philosophy #ai #soon to migrate to canmom.art

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mystxmomo · 7 days ago

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Ok but what is "feminine" and "masculine" behavior/hold in drow society exactly? A few things one would generally consider more feminine, things like wearing make-up, having "dainty" or "delicate" body posture/language, maticulously caring for ones hygiene and appearance, wearing long hair with elaborate hairstyle, being sleek and elegant, wearing "revealing" clothes, are these "effeminate" or are these not just things drow males casually do too?

Ask is in reply to this post, to people tapping in late.

I like where your heads at with this. Sincerely, I like when people come in and bounce thoughts back at me. This is good, you are "Yes, anding..." the bit with me and I really appreciate that.

However, I will say. I personally think we know quite a bit about what Drow consider to be "effeminate" and what drow consider to be "masculine," because that is in itself the way the framework of the culture is presented to us. Your mistake here (nonpejorative of course) is, as a result of a lot of our own modern culture being around the physical performance of gender (and admittedly, my own comparison to it being rooted in that as a result of what I'm personally doing) are that a lot of the examples you give are rooted in that physical performance of gender. But. I don't actually think that's the way drow are engaging with this. Instead, drow do a lot more gender marking with the roles and stations they play in society, and the physical performance of gender is secondary to that.

Not to tap in our friend Drizzt, but I actually really like the way the Drizzt series starts to encapsulate that idea.

Consider this instead. Anytime you go onto the wiki and see a sentence that starts with "Drow woman are expected to..." Or "Drow men are seen as..." That is, in itself, an indicator of what they see as effeminate or masculine. Those are the cultural gender markers. And to me, that makes sense. What do you do when the body becomes fluid and it's no longer the main way to affirm your gender. You lean on the performance of it through the roles. Woman are clerics and men are soldiers and wizards. Woman are the matrons, and men are the patrons and consorts. To play those roles is to affirm one's gender in this society. So to answer your question directly. Subservience is seen as a masculine trait to drow, and authority is seen as effeminate.

And you're probably thinking to yourself. Wow that's a really shitty and limiting way to engage with gender. Gender is way more complicated than that, of course you can be a soldier and be a woman, of course you can be a cleric and be a man. Even in these societies, that's not INHERENTLY a mark of gender.

And like. Yeah. That's the point of criticism, it's the mirror. It exists in fiction as a reflection of that aspect of our culture, y'know. Just taken to it's logical extreme. How many evangelical woman do you know of who make their performance as role of house maker and wives other people's problem because it's the only marker of identity they're allowed to have within the communities they exist in. How many men become threatened by the existence of good and well meaning husbands and fathers, because to them to affirm their masculinity is to put on a show of hating their wives. These are incredibly shitty and limiting performances of gender, and it is one that exists in our real world to be commented on and examined.

To further exemplify this....

The thing with Lolth's church (and therefore what the other drow churches end up responding to) is that she's made oppression inherent to the identity of being a man. This is why you can't just approach a drow man and be like "hey the lot you have in life sucks, here's your equal rights." Because of how the culture has been set up, it becomes an attack on their identity as a man that exists within that culture. The response you're likely to get (even with ambition and power being as prized and prioritized as it is in drow society) is that... No, I'm a man. I have to be subservient to BE a man. And I'm a good man, I know I'm a man, I'm happy to be a man.

Again, returning to the evangelical house wife analogy, the idea of having equal rights, that there are woman out there that reject that lifestyle but identify as woman is something that causes a cognitive dissonance in them. Because the only way they've been allowed to engage with the identity of their womanhood is through the lens of their role as wives and mothers and homemakers. What are they if not that woman.

And so the reflection into the fantasy fiction of drow culture is.

And you know. I'm leaning on drow men a lot here despite the fact that the original post was about Enclave's identity as someone born a woman and rejecting that role in her culture, because I think it's a little easier to make the point of station and oppression being intertwined with identity when it's a choice of that station rather than a rejection of that station. But this also wraps around to what I was saying with Enclave. What happens when you decide you don't want to be the authority. What becomes of your identity when you don't know how to perform gender in the limited way society has granted it to you.

This is also why I think Eilistraee's church ends up the way it is. It's a (on the surface) "kinder" affirmation of the way their roles indicate their gender. The woman are the leaders, the authority, the community leaders. And the men can affirm their identity in a setting that is kinder to them. (But that's still very limiting, as we've discussed in the past. What do you do when you're a man who wants authority and are suddenly seen as threat to the established order for it. What do you do when you're a woman who rejects that idea of authority and womanhood. You become alienated. You either play into the performance or are forced to reevaluate who and what you are)

This is an aside, but as a result of this I actually personally think the gender situation of Vhaeruan's church would be a lot weirder than canon tends to give it credit for. These are people who are not only going to come out of lolths church not having a lot of life skills as a result of being in positions where those skills were denied to them (real world example again being, how do you know how to manage money when you've never been allowed finances of your own, how do you know how to fix a car when it's always been done for you, ect), but inevitably force them to re-evaluate what their masculinity means, and how to perform it. And I think this is something canon really fails at getting into the weeds of, specifically because the discussion around this is something that only comes when you become aware of it. You got to remember, drow exist as a satire of patriarchy. What does it mean to be a man coming out of a church where you're only allowed to be a man if you're subservient to a woman. I don't know.

(What does it mean, in real life, to be a woman if you reject motherhood and the role of wife in a society that says to be a woman is to inevitably become those things. I don't know. You have to find that. Some people say "no ill be a woman despite that" and some people say "well fuck, I guess I'm not a woman than.")

Same deal here.

And that's why I think it's important to consider individual character thoughts on this. Not every character is going to have Enclave's response of "Well I'll just be the third thing," because Enclave is a person written to have a lot of apathy towards these things. But someone with a much stronger sense of gender identity might have come into her position and dug their heels in and reclaimed those things with more pride. "I might be stationed as a soldier and you might have made me into your consort, but I'm still a woman. Try me." And I think that strength and ambition would have been in itself an affirmation of gender.

But that's not Enclave. Frankly, I consider Enclave to be a character where one of her defining traits is her subservience and devotion, she just hides it incredibly well well through her abrasive personality and by siding with the people she views as strongest in the world view she's given herself. But that's my authorial onion.

(and in fact, Ilphaer purposefully plays into this as a transfem character. So much of HER character is based around self actualization and the certainty of her identity. Are wizards traditionally a male dominated field in universe? Yeah but fuck you. I love my magic, I'm not giving it up to affirm my identity; type beat)

Am I making sense? Hopefully I am, I'm running on three hours of sleep while I type this one up.

#world building #enclave #and like. Yeah I could get into physical indicators of gender and what I think that is for the drow #but i dont know if thats immediately important For what's going on canonically #If you want me to write up a post with my head canons on that I can do that just come back #But I do sincerely think the societal role is the more important aspect being played into with this fantasy culture #yknow.

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