#will-saruman parallels

[aemiron-main]

Saruman and Sauron vs Will Byers and Henry Creel and some s5 predictions (this is that lotr post i’ve been talking about)

It’s time for some will and saruman parallel thoughts & why I think will is going to witness his s1 vanishing from Henry’s pov in s5 via his bond with Henry and some other S5 plot thoughts!

I also have this writeup formatted in a google doc here. 

Introduction

So, to start off, this drawing from the show haunts me: why?

Because it’s a direct visual parallel of this scene:

Palantirs

Now, let’s take a closer look at that orb- ponder the orb, if you will. The orb that Saruman has isn’t just any old orb, it’s a palantir. But what is a palantir, and what does it do? How does it work? And how does all of that translate into Stranger Things?

There’s eight palantir in total, but only seven in Middle Earth specifically (i’ll get more into middle earth vs arda vs ea a little later on), and so they’re generally known as the ‘seven seeing-stones’. And there’s two main ones that I’m generally going to focus on in this analysis, although the others tie into it too: the one that Sauron has, and the one that Saruman has. So, what is a palantir and what does it do/how does it work and how does that tie to ST? Let’s look at some excerpts from the LOTR wiki to help explain: 

"The palantíri, in appearance, were dark, perfectly smooth spheres of varying sizes; some were small and portable, around a foot in diameter, while others (particularly the master-stones) were too enormous to be lifted by Men. They were completely unmarked or unmarred, and even when unseated, they remained inviolable. The stones had permanent poles aligned with the center of the earth, with permanent upper and nether poles. 

The circumferential faces were the ones that allowed viewing, receiving outside visions, and channeling them to the eye of the beholder on the opposite side; if one wished to look east, he would place himself on the western side of the orb, etc. Unlike the master stones, which could rotate and look in any direction, the smaller ones had fixed positions so that when looked at from a wrong direction, the face would appear blank to the surveyor. The palantíri could not transmit sound; they could only show visions or intended thoughts of the users.”

Will and Henry’s connection is like two master stones/master palantir communicating with eachother, as their connection goes both ways equally, Will is a double spy. The connection that Henry makes with somebody like Max, though? (Because Henry DOES make a psychic connection when he attacks). That connection is more like a master stone to a smaller stone. The smaller stone can still see into the mind of the master stone user, just like how Max could still access Henry’s mind, but only from the ‘right direction,’ in terms of smaller palantir, Max could only access Henry’s mind when Henry was making an active connection- max, on her own, cannot make a connection with henry/doesn’t have a two way connection with him outside of when he’s attacking her, which at that point, there is a small two-way connection, which is how max accesses vecna’s mindscape. Will, on the other hand, DOES. 

“In one direction, they could see for leagues, with the farthest places offering the least clarity. Their vision was not based on obstacles but on darkness; they could see through things but would only see shadow- nothing within could be discerned. This was a method of security which protected the sight of the surveyor. Magnification was also possible for those with an extraordinary will; only the most potent and determined could accomplish this. Palantíri could not pierce minds, for the transference of thought depended upon the wills and intentions of those communicating.”

“When two stones were communicating with each other, then another viewer from a third stone would find them blank. The master stones of north and south were able to 'eavesdrop' on these mental conversations, however. Some stones were attuned to each other, for example the Ithil-stone and the Anor-stone, as these belonged to the brothers Isildur and Anárion and were mounted in sister cities.”

‘The furthest places offering the least clarity,’ This ties into how Henry’s connection with Will is weaker when Will’s away from Hawkins/further away from Henry, just like how Will's now memories/connection to the mf/Henry in s2 became stronger as the tunnels expanded into hawkins/got physically closer to Will. 

“Their vision was not based on obstacles but on darkness; they could see through things but would only see shadow- nothing within could be discerned.”  Henry’s ‘vision’ is based on darkness-  he can’t get into the light memories unless he’s able to corrupt them, he can’t ‘see’ those memories, can’t access them unless he can corrupt them first, it’s like his corruption is the path for him to get into them, he can only ‘see in the dark’. 

HOWEVER, with that said, we also know that “Magnification was also possible for those with an extraordinary will; only the most potent and determined could accomplish this.” So, “magnification” in this context basically is the same as Henry corrupting light memories in order to enter them- someone of strong will can “magnify” the images of a palantir/see more clearly in the dark- Henry “magnifies”/is able to see into peoples’ light memories by using his psychic willpower/strength to corrupt their memories. 

“When two stones were communicating with each other, then another viewer from a third stone would find them blank. The master stones of north and south were able to 'eavesdrop' on these mental conversations, however.” THIS has some implications for Mike, actually. So, a third non-master stone/’eavesdropper’/outsider cannot hear what is being said between two other stones, but a master stone CAN. So, if El or Will was making/had made a psychic connection with somebody like Mike, somebody powerful like Henry would be able to eavesdrop on this connection. All of those shots where it’s almost like somebody’s watching Mike? And some of the evidence that Mike may be even partially ‘possessed’? That would align with Henry ‘eavesdropping’ onto a psychic connection that’s being created between Mike and El, for example.  So then, there’s a chance that via El or Will, Henry has gained access to Mike’s mind after eavesdropping on him throughout the seasons- and looking at Mike’s monologue, it’s interesting to me that they show closeups of him holding El’s hand, much like how El grabbed her mother’s hand and made a psychic connection with her. Henry may have used El’s connection with Mike as a sort of launching pad to make his own connection with Mike, whereas previously, he was just watching Mike through El or through Will.

Will and Henry’s connection (two master palantirs) allows them to see into eachother’s minds, but is so strong that they cannot see anything OTHER than eachother’s minds (and their own minds), and therefore, Henry cannot spy on Mike via Will bc he can only see Will’s mind, rather than see through Will’s eyes.

 With Henry and El, though, Henry can get into El’s mind and El into Henry’s, but bc Henry is more powerful, he can go beyond just her memories too, he’s not like. Locked into her memories the way his is with Will’s, and so he can use El as a minor palantir to be able to look thru her eyes and see Mike, whereas with Will, he can’t do that bc he’s locked into Will’s memories. This gives Henry greater access to Will and makes Will more susceptible to him than El is, but also gives Will a better chance of fighting him off bc Henry is in his memories he’s but he’s more LOCKED in there. 

This would also explain why Henry wanted to possess Will via the MF- when Will was possessed, their connection acted more like a major palantir to minor palantir/more like a more powerful verson of Henry and El’s connection, because Henry was now able to see through Will’s eyes & wasn’t locked into Will’s mind/memories. This is also why we get the “now memories” when Will’s possessed but not so much in s4- because Will was seeing through Henry’s eyes in s2 just like how Henry was able to see thru his, rather than being locked into eachother’s memories/mindscape. Will was still a spy/double agent when possessed, but he was actually MORE of a double agent when not possessed (his connection w henry predates his possession) because Henry is the one dominating the connection when Will is possessed, which is why Will doesn’t see henry’s mindscape, but instead, sees the visions of the tunnels, because that’s what Henry’s choosing to show him, which is something I’m going to talk about next, because people using palantirs cannot create false images but rather, pick and choose what images/part of their mind they're going to show to the other user. The ability to do this depends on the mental strength of the user & user’s ability to dominate that connection, which is the same as how Henry and El’s powers work: they’re trying to dominate the connection when they psychically fight eachother and launch eachother across rooms. 

“According to Gandalf, it is beyond Sauron and Saruman's skill to create the palantíri and that Sauron cannot make the palantíri "lie" or create false images (though the latter could show selective images to foster a false impression in the viewer). The palantíri were not initially inherently dangerous to use, however after the Ithil-stone was captured by Sauron in TA 2002 they were no longer used by Gondor's rulers, as users could be ensnared by the Dark Lord, as later events were to show.”

Just like somebody using a palantir, Vecna/Henry can hide parts of his memories, he can manipulate people like Will’s perception of events, but he can’t create entirely false/new memories, especially not when it comes to somebody viewing HIS memories, he can hide parts of his own memories to make the person (Will) viewing his memories confused/warp his perception based on a lack of context/lack of memories (much like El with Nina & how she didn’t have ‘new’/wrong memories, but instead, was MISSING part of her memories, and those missing memories warped her perception and made her believe that she killed the kids). The memories aren’t entirely gone, and new memories haven’t taken their place- instead, some of the memories are missing, which results in a warped perception of events. Henry literally describes his own powers in the same way: as ‘holding a mirror’ up to his victims. His visions/attacks aren’t just creating random false images for the sake of torment, instead, it’s based on the victims’ trauma and guilt and personal experiences. It’s not technically a lie, just a warped version of the truth. 

And as well, with palantirs, this ties into Will’s s2 episodes BEFORE he got possessed- because those visions are NOT the same as now memories. Like I said, with a palantir, you cannot create false memories to show the person on the other side of the connection- but you CAN, if you are powerful enough, (which Henry generally IS), pick and choose which memories/parts of your mind you want them to see.

Which is how Sauron manipulates people without outright lying- he distorts the truth, just like how Henry holds a mirror up to people. Sauron hid parts of his own memories to try and convince Denethor that Sauron had already won. Just like how Henry hides parts of his mind/memories to try and convince Nancy and El etc that he has already won

And so, wills s2 visions (not the now-memories): those tie into the palantirs because they weren’t fake, vecna didn’t just make up smthn random for him to see bc Henry can’t do that- instead, Henry was picking and choosing what parts of Henry’s mind Will could see, even tho henry and Will were still trapped in eachother's minds so to speak, henry bc he was more powerful, was able to HIDE parts of his mind.

Non possessed Will’s connection w henry = two master palantirs communicating

Possessed Will’s connection w henry = major and minor palantir, more like el’s or max’s connection w henry, henry is now the one dominating the connection & is able to see through will’s eyes more, but the two-way connection is still there (will’s now memories of the tunnels), just like how a two way connection IS still there with a major and minor palantir, but the connection is dominated by the major one & henry is more able to manipulate which memories will is seeing compared to will being able to manipulate what henry is seeing. 

“Denethor II, the last Ruling Steward of Gondor, attempted to use the stone in his later years to gain knowledge, but too often only saw what Sauron wished him to. Sauron convinced Denethor over time that there was no hope for victory.”

This sounds a LOT like not only Henry’s visions to people, but the vision that he showed to Nancy specifically, trying to make her feel as if all hope was lost, showing her images of her family dead and of a giant, dragon-like beast. Sauron didn’t create fake images via the palantir, because he can’t do that- instead, he choose which images/real memories to show Denethor & hid certain ones so that it seemed like Sauron was winning. And also: denethor as a person is weaker than sauron, so he’s unable to see past sauron’s manipulation/perspective warping/hiding stuff. But when it comes to will and henry, it’s likely that will WOULD be able to see past that at this point. 

SO! Long story sport, Will’s orb in the drawing is paralleled directly to the palantir, it’s a visual representation of his two-way connection with Henry, of being a double spy, of him and Henry being able to see into eachother’s minds. Time to shift away from palantir briefly, but we WILL come back to them. 

Some Backstory About Sauron, Saruman, and Morgoth

In a later section, I’m going to do a deeper dive into the bond between Sauron and Saruman, because imo it’s a misconception that Saruman just sort of chose to work for Sauron, or that the Palantir is entirely what convinced Saruman to join Sauron, and it’s actually a more complex bond than that,

So, to begin with some backstory to set the stage for discussing Sauron and Saruman’s bond later on: Sauron is not the biggest big bad of Tolkien’s universe (I’m not saying ‘’middle earth,’ because Tolkien’s world goes beyond Middle Earth into Valinor, and Valinor is where a lot of this took place: the in-canon name for “Tolkien’s universe”, is Eä, and the ‘earth’ itself, including Valinor and Middle Earth is Arda- Middle Earth and Valinor are like continents on Arda and Arda is like a planet in Eä if that makes sense), instead, that title belongs to a dude named Morgoth. Sauron and Morgoth are not the same sort of “creature”/entity/being/species, but Sauron and Saruman ARE. 

Morgoth = Valar

Sauron = Maiar (Maiar of Aule)

Saruman = Maiar (Maiar of Aule)

Now, Morgoth isn’t super relevant right now, however, I’m going to use him to explain what a Valar is & why that’s relevant to setting with the stage for how Will and Henry parallel Saruman and Sauron. So, Valar are basically like the pantheon of “gods” of Eä, and groups of Maiar are associated with each Valar. And “Aule” is a Valar just like Morgoth (except not evil), and both Sauron and Saruman are Maiar of Aule, whereas Radagast for example, is a Maiar of Yavanna. So, not only are Sauron and Saruman both Maiar, they’re Maiar of Aule. Maiar and Valar are, again, different species, whereas being a Maiar of Aule is almost like being the same ‘race’.

Why is this relevant to ST? Henry and Will are both humans, just like how both Sauron and Saruman are both Maiar, but it goes deeper than that, because just like how both Sauron and Saruman are Maiar of Aule specifically, Will and Henry have very similar/paralleled backstories and queercoding. 

Parallels Between Sauron and Henry Creel

Sauron, just like Henry, was not always evil- just as Henry was a normal human with powers at one point, Sauron was a normal maiar with powers. However, much like the way that Brenner manipulated & ‘’’trained’’’ Henry, Morgoth did something very similar with Sauron when getting Sauron to join him. 

Sauron’s ‘fair form,’ known as Annatar, is VERY similar to how we see Henry looking younger and more attractive in S4 during the Nina project memories, and Sauron used this handsome mortal form to charm and manipulate people. 

Sauron’s shapeshifting abilities vs Henry’s: we see Henry shapeshifting in peoples’ visions when he attacks them, like when Max thinks that she’s hugging her mom but it’s actually Henry. Plus, there’s quite a bit of evidence that I’ve talked about in other posts pointing to the idea that the S1 ‘demogorgon’ that took Will & that El fought in the school was actually Henry. Sauron is also capable of shapeshifting in very similar way to Henry. 

Sauron being known for manipulation and deceit, just like how henry manipulates people like el 

Vecna in DND has a phylactery to store his soul in- the one ring is sauron’s phylactery. Sauron literally poured part of his soul into it, the worst/cruelest part of his soul. 

The one ring works in a very similar way not only to a phylactery but also to henry’s powers: henry describes his powers as ‘holding a mirror up to people,’ and amplifying their worst trauma/guilt. Henry doesn’t just create *random* horrifying images, instead, it’s based on amplifying the existing emotions and bad memories of his victims and making them face their own traits. The one ring is basically identical in terms of how it works: it doesnt just ‘make people invisible or evil,’ instead, it amplifies the existing powers and qualities of the user, for good or for bad, it’s like holding a mirror up to the wearer and reflecting their good and bad qualities right back at them and magnifying them. This is why bilbo and frodo turn invisible when they put it on- hobbits are sneaky and are described as figuratively being ‘invisible’ to the ‘big folk’- so, the ring amplifies this and makes them literally invisible. 

There’s very very likely more parallels, but for right now, these are the ones i’m using!

The Parallels Between Saruman and Will Byers

The visual parallels between Will’s drawing of Will the Wise with the orb vs the LOTR Saruman scene with the palantir

Will’s wizard name/title is “Will the Wise,” just like how Saruman’s was “Saruman the Wise”.

“Saruman of Many Colours”. This was Saruman’s new title, and reminds me of the rainbow imagery with Will, including his rainbow ship. 

Being a double agent/a spy: Saruman was a double-agent for Sauron vs for the Istari wizards & frequently did whatever was best for his own personal interests. This parallels ill being described as a spy/having a two-way spy connection with Henry/the mindflayer. 

Saruman being a Maiar, which means that he exists in two dimensions at once at all times (smthn im going to elaborate on/explain later), and Will’s s2 UD episodes and the way that he’s physically moving in the UD and real world in the same way at the same time, literally existing in two dimensions at once. 

Having a connection with Sauron via a master palantir, but it was a connection dominated by sauron due to sauron’s strength/power and manipulation of what images saruman was seeing, much like Henry’s connection with Will

There’s very very likely more parallels, but for right now, these are the ones i’m using!

The Connection/History Between Sauron and Saruman and the Ties of This Connection/History to Henry and Will’s Connection/History

SO! Saruman and Sauron were both maiar of Aule living in Valinor. Just like how there’s all the Will-Henry parallels and Henry very likely targeted Will because he reminds Henry of himself, part of why saruman joined sauron is the same reason, with them both being powerful Maiar of Aule, who had a love of creating things Saruman, as Maia of Aule, was always going to be in danger turning evil- maiar of aule are not inherently evil by any stretch, but instead often have qualities, such as a love of smithing jewelry or weapons/general love of creation, that allow them to be more swayed towards evil/greed/possessiveness. Saruman didn’t ‘turn evil’ because Sauron turned evil but because of the same reasons Sauron turned evil (ie, henry trying to get will to join him bc theyre both similar). 

In the book “Peoples of Middle-Earth,” there’s an essay titled “Istari’, which talks about how Aule chose Saruman as the leader of the istari, and how this show that Aule seemed to believe that Saruman was capable of rivalling/challenging sauron/that they were similar in power and in nature and in backstory and in terms of their traits and how Saruman was the one to drive Sauron out of Dol Guldur initially. Sauron was the most powerful maiar before he ‘turned evil,’ and so then when sauron left, saruman was now the most powerful. They’re paralleled to eachother, much like Will and Henry, they have many similarities, but are not exactly the same. 

Saruman ended up alongside Sauron because of the shared traits/abilities/parallels/similarities between the two of them, just like how Will was likely targeted by Henry because of their shared traits/upbringing/queerness/parallels/powers. However, Saruman is also still a double agent in LOTR. He’s not fully on the side of Sauron, but also not fully on the side of the Istari,, he wasn’t fully swayed, instead, was a double agent trying to fulfill his own goals. 

“When Saruman used the Orthanc-stone, Sauron convinced him to join him.”

This excerpt from the LOTR wiki is true to an extent but doesn’t tell the full story & frames it as if the palantir was the majority of the reason sauron joined saruman but in reality, it was the underlying similarities between sauron and saruman that made saruman more susceptible to being influenced by sauron via the palantir in the first place- plus, despite siding with sauron during a portion of lotr, sauron is still very much portrayed as a double-agent/’morally grey’. Saruman’s similarities to sauron are exactly what sauron exploited via the palantir to attempt to get saruman to join him, much like how in s5, Henry is likely going to try and exploit the similarities between will and try to get will to join him, which is going to tie into my idea that will is going to witness his s1 vanishing from henry’s pov via his connection with Henry. 

And this is where things get interesting imo & comes full circle back to what I talked about in the beginning with the palantir & why I think that Will’s going to witness his own vanishing/time in the UD from Henry’s POV via his two-way connection with Henry, and why IMO, Will has repressed memories of those events, but in spite of that, is still 100% certain and right that Henry is the one who took him. So, let’s look at a Tolkien quote:

“For it is said indeed that being embodied the Istari had need to learn much anew by slow experience, and though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly."

Now, what does this actually mean, and what implications does it have for Will and his connection to Henry? Well, this is basically Tolkien’s way of saying ‘repressed memories’. Saruman is aware of the similarities between him and Sauron that eventually lead him to be swayed by Sauron in LOTR in the sense that he’s aware of the existence/results of sauron’s traits but not really the details, and when Tolkien talks about ‘embodied,’ he’s talking about when Maiar, like Saruman, take on a more tangible physical form (because theyre more like spirits), which is why Saruman looks like an old man in LOTR. So, after Saruman got that body and came to middle earth from valinor, his memories of Valinor were repressed. 

“the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off” The memory isn’t gone, it’s  just too far to access- they haven’t fully forgotten the Blessed Realm/Valinor, but they can’t fully access those memories, their perception of it is warped, much like will’s perception of the night he vanished. 

And here’s another interesting part of that, too: “(so long as they remained true to their mission)“. Why is this interesting? Because Saruman didn’t remain true to his mission. He’s going to have even more repressed memories than somebody like Gandalf, because Gandalf’s memories are far-off, but not gone, as long as Gandalf remains true to his mission- but Saruman doesn’t remain true to his mission in the end, so he’s also going to begin to lose those far-off memories as he strays more and more from his mission. 

“the Istari had need to learn much anew by slow experience “ this is basically exactly what El did with Nina, she was learning to walk again/swim, just like Brenner described, and Will is going to do the same thing in s5 IMO, but in a slightly different way: he’s going to witness his vanishing through Henry’s eyes, because Will’s own perception was so warped that night due to him likely being in a Vecna vision, and so Will is missing memories/has repressed memories in the sense that what was actually happening to him/around him is different than what he was seeing, different than much of what the AUDIENCE saw that night.

 But he doesn’t fully properly remember the events- his perception is warped via the fact that parts of his memory are repressed, and so he’s not seeing the full story, which warps his perception, just like El with Nina & thinking she killed the kids & how her missing memories warped her perception. 

“and though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off”. The “and though they knew whence they came'' part is interesting to me as well, because it’s just like Will and his warped perception/possible repressed memories- he knows “from whence he came,” he knows that he was in the UD, but doesn’t really remember what the UD was like (in a way), like i don’t mean he doesnt have trauma from it/doesnt remember at all, I mean that his perception/memory of it has been warped. He knows he was there, but struggles to really know what ‘there’ was like and what was a vecna vision and what wasn’t. But just like Saruman knows that he has a connection to sauron via their shared traits and both being maiar of aule, Will KNOWS that henry is the one who took him/who he has a connection with. And here’s a VERY important part- Istari, like Saruman, have repressed their memories of their time in Valinor/have a warped perception of it, but Sauron does not. Saruman and Sauron are both Maiar, and both Maiar of Aule at that, but they are NOT both Istari, and only the Istari lost those memories. The wizards in LOTR (Gandalf, Radagast, Saruman, Pallando, and Alatar), are all Maiar and also all Istari/wizards. Maiar is a species, Istari is like a cross between a race and a club in a weird way. All Istari are Maiar, but not all Maiar are Istari- and Sauron specifically is NOT one of the Istari. Sauron didn’t ‘embody’ a body in the same way that Saruman did, Sauron isn’t stuck to that one form the same way that Saruman is. Saruman does not fully remember the similarities between him and Sauron/how Sauron was in valinor. But Sauron fully remembers these things, and THAT is the core thing. So, hypothetically, Saruman could, through a master palantir, gain access to sauron’s mind/memories and possibly witness his own repressed memories from sauron’s pov. 

And so, something similar is likely going to happen with Will and Henry: Just like how  in theory, if Saruman was strong/powerful enough, Saruman would be able to use a palantir to see Sauron’s memories of Saruman/of Valinor, (which is paralleled to Will’s vanishing), Will is going to use his connection with Henry to find out what really happened that night & is going to see it through Henry’s eyes, which is going to be how all of the weirdness and perspective fuckery from s1 ep/will’s vanishing is resolved both for Will AND the audience. 

There’s also something else I want to talk about: 

“And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power."

This quote is about Elves on the surface, but this and other passages confirms that Saruman lives in  both realms at once. The Blessed Realm/Valinor is where all maiar are from. Saruman has 100% dwelt in it, it’s where he lived prior to coming to Middle Earth. Saruman, being a Maiar/from the Blessed Realm, means that he exists in two realms at once- the physical world and the spirit world. He’s not just able to travel between them- no, specifically, he exists in both at once, JUST like Will in his s2 visions where he was running physically in the real world AND in the UD- he was in two realms at once, stuck between the slides. As well, I mentioned this earlier, but sauron is pointed out repeatedly to be considered a ‘morally grey’/double agent character: he’s in the middle, he’s between things, and will’s double-agent imagery is also tied to him being like a ‘double agent’ between dimensions, able to be in both of them at once. 

Conclusion/Summary/Reiterating the Implications That All of This Has for S5

Will is going to witness the night that he vanished from Henry’s pov, just like how Saruman, in theory could witness his own repressed memories via sauron’s pov through a palantir (palantirs being representative of the connection between will and henry)

Mike is likely being watched by Henry/Henry has possibly already been messing with his mind or at the very least watching him/possibly made a connection with mike’s mind during the monologue, which would explain those shots of mike being ‘watched’ and explain a lot of things that @dinitride-art​ has talked about with possessiongate

Will is able to go between dimensions/more SPECIFICALLY, he is able to exist and function in two realms/dimensions at once, which is something that I’ve posted about before & am going to elaborate on in my vanishing of will byers analysis.

[actuallyfingolfin]

And as the Captains gazed south to the Land of Mordor, it seemed to them that, black against the pall of cloud, there rose a huge shape of shadow, impenetrable, lightning-crowned, filling all the sky. Enormous it reared above the world, and stretched out towards them a vast threatening hand, terrible but impotent: for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was all blown away, and passed; and then a hush fell.  - The Field of Cormallen

To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing. -The Scouring of the Shire

thinking thoughts about this today friends

[spectacle-street]

Everything about Will's time in the upside down (the abduction, his hiding places, his behavior) stinks of Vecna being the one pursuing him to me!

[warrioreowynofrohan]

Reading Tolkien’s annotated translation of Beowulf, and learning all kinds of things about LOTR and the Silm from it!

First:

Leave here your warlike shields [from Beowulf]

[Tolkien’s commentary; bold mine:] Note the prohibition of weapons or accoutrements of battle in the hall. To walk in with spear and shield was like walking in nowadays with your hat on. The basis of these rules was of course fear and prudence among the ever-present dangers of a heroic age, but they were made part of the ritual, of good manners. Compare the prohibition against drawing a sword in the officers’ mess. Swords of course also were dangerous; but they were evidently regarded as part of a knight’s attire, and he would not in any case be willing to lay aside his sword, a thing of great cost and often an heirloom.

This gives me some perspective around Tolkien’s probable intended tone for the moment in Meduseld in The Two Towers where Aragon strongly protests against being told to leave Andúril (a sword of very great value and ancientry, and very much an heirloom) with the door-warden. From a contemporary perspective it’s easy to read it as Aragorn being unnecessarily prideful and combative, but this passage strongly indicates that Tolkien intends it to be Théoden who is being unreasonable in that event, an indication - along with many others in the scene, prior to Gandalf dislodging Saruman’s influence - that Théoden is being discourteous and behaving in a manner unworthy of a king who is recieving heroes offering aid. (The fact of Meduseld being a ‘golden hall’ like famous Heorot in Beowulf may be deliberate to strengthen the parallel.)

Second (immediately following the above commentary):

But against this danger [from swords] very severe laws existed protecting the ‘peace’ of a king’s hall. It was death in Scandanavia to cause a brawl in the king’s hall. Among the laws of the West Saxon king Ine is found: ‘If any man fight in the king’s house, he shall forfeit all his estate, and it shall be for the king to judge whether he be put to death or not.’

This adds context to the incident in the story of Túrin in The Silmarillion where Saeros taunts Túrin in Menegroth and Túrin responds by throwing a heavy drinking-vessel at him and injuring him (it’s indicated the injury is serious, so I’d take it along the lines of him giving him a broken nose and knocking out some teeth.) It is stated in at least some versions of the story that death is the punishment for drawing weapons in the king’s hall, in line with the historical customs mentioned here. This gives a further emphasis that what actually happens - Túrin is not punished at all and Mablung strongly reprimands Saeros for provoking him - illustrates that Túrin is, Saeros’ behaviour notwithstanding, in very high favour in Menegroth. (Saeros as the king’s counsellor is also in roughly the same position as Unferth in Beowulf, who taunts the titular character - Beowulf responds heatedly but without violence. Tolkien may be setting up a deliberate contrast here.)

Third:

The word hádor is an adjective meaning ‘clear, bright’…it is almost always found in reference to the sky (or the sun or stars). But that association is in description of brightness…

This was one a lightbulb moment: oh, in the name of Hador Goldenhead (the ancestor of Húrin, Túrin, and Tuor in The Silmarillion), ‘Goldenhead’ isn’t an additional name/epessë so much as it’s a glossed translation of ‘Hador’! The guy with bright, golden hair.

Fourth: Going back to the Rohirrim - Edoras, the name of their capital city/royal court, is basically just the Old English for ‘courts’:

under was very frequently used in describing position within, or movement to within, a confined space, especially of enclosures or prisons, ‘within four walls’. Cf. in under eoderas (eoderas being the outer fences of the courts), ‘in amid the courts’….‘eoder’ means both ‘fence (protection)’ and ‘fenced enclosure, a court’.

I’m also learning a lot about Beowulf - Tolkien’s notes are clarifying a lot of tone and nuances, not to mention the political/diplomatic relationships between the different kingdoms, which were confusing me - but it’s amazing how much it reveals about ways that Tolkien’s knowledge informed his legendarium!

[mask131]

Of course, parallels are always going to be drawn between Tolkien's Legendarium and Lewis' Narnia. But, as someone who loves to study the depiction of magic in fantasy, there is one parallel that keeps sticking with me, or rather two-in-one.

Parallel one: Both authors have in their fantasy world a group of magic-users of a same gender (the Istari/Order of the Wizards/the Five Wizards ; the coven of the Northern Witches), with only two members of this group being fully explored as characters (Gandalf & Saruman VS The White Witch and the Lady of the Green Kirtle), and the others being left vague and mysterious (only a handful of info on Radagast and the Blue Wizards ; zero info about the other Northern Witches)

Parallel two: Both chose to depict wizards in their fantasy worlds as magical because they are actually supernatural entities that took a human form (the Istari are Maiar - divine spirits/minor angels/"daemon" in the Greek sense of the term - who were sent as messengers/helpers/emissaries ; the various wizards of Narnia are fallen stars undergoing penance for mysterious crimes). Plus, both authors presented three wizards to their audience, two forming an obvious duo (Gandalf and Saruman ; Coriakin and Ramandu), while the third is a "lesser" character (Radagast because he only appears in mentions and secondary tales, always in an indirect way ; the Hermit of the Southern March because he has all the traits of a Narnian wizard but is never called, adressed or identified as such).

[fictionadventurer]

I'm noticing that a lot of Tolkien's helper characters in The Lord of the Rings parallel each other--and I'm beginning to suspect that he puts similar characters in similar positions in their books, which gives parallel structures to The Fellowship of the Ring and The Two Towers.

Treebeard shows up in The Two Towers around the same place where Tom Bombadil does in The Fellowship of the Ring. They're both among the oldest living beings in Middle Earth, both help the hobbits by commanding dangerous trees, and both prefer not to get involved in the larger war but will watch over their forest.

Aragorn shows up to help the hobbits in The Fellowship of the Ring at around the same place in the narrative where Gandalf returns to help Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas in The Two Towers.

Eomer's a bit of an outlier here, because he shows up before Treebeard, which puts him closer to Farmer Maggot's place in the story, but he's a better parallel to Glorfindel, as someone who serves a local lord and provides fast horses to the group when they need them.

Theoden then kind of parallels Elrond as a leader who has to consult with Gandalf about who to send on the next mission of the war. (Though if we're going by when they show up in page count, Elrond is probably closer to Saruman's position in the story, and there's an argument to be made about how they serve as contrasting foils to each other.)

Faramir comes into the story around the same time as Galadriel does. Frodo and Sam are blindfolded before being allowed into both of their realms. Both Faramir and Galadriel are offered excellent chances to take the ring and have to refuse it. Both want to preserve the glory of history and are troubled by the decay of their societies. Both wake Frodo up to look into a pool and offer him advice about how to proceed on his quest. Both give him provisions that will help him on his journey.

I don't have time to do a more detailed analysis to back up my point, but I think there might be something there.

[darkestwolfx]

TAG as LOTR 3 📚

I thought there would be discussion on the last and I think there could well be on this one too!

I very much agree though, I love the potential dynamic we could have here between The Hood / Jeff and Saruman / Gandalf. It feels like one of those parallels that you could spend ages looking for but we stumbled upon it through a jested conversation and it's all just so beautiful. I just love this whole universe we've walked into so so much!

Anyhow, by my workings, this is the next character we need to then be able to work forward with the rest. There's a few more options here than for the last few so this should be intriguing. I think I know where some people's votes will go for this, but I think we have the largest room for surprise on this one at the moment!

[skeleton-in-a-cupboard]

Latetly, i was thinking about Miyazaki's animes and LOTR shared some similarities.

I mean :

-both often question the relation between civilization(s) and the environnement ;

-both denouce cupidity and industrialization ( Saruman with Isengard in LOTR / the blacksmiths' town in princess Monoke );

-both tells stories which convey morals and values like humility, loyalty and courage.

Don't hesitate to enrich the reflexion by sharing your own thoughts and parallels !

/Sorry if there are some mistakes in this post, english is not my first language/

[c-rowlesdraws]

gollum is sympathetic but emphasis is on the last three syllables. he is sympathetic because his life absolutely sucks and it's (mostly) not even his fault, even if he was never a very good person (good people don't murder their friends, even if the ring definitely had a hand in that). he committed an unforgivable crime, but he spent the next five hundred years paying for it, and that sucks for him and everyone else. really, he's pretty heavily paralleled to wormtongue, who was also kind of a shit dude but practically had to be bullied into being evil after a while.

yeah, seriously-- life has already punished Gollum plenty for his crimes. Dude has been having a rough five hundred years.

I haven't met Wormtongue in the books yet, so I only know him from the PJ movies as a greasy creep who was working for Saruman until he got fed up with being bullied and pushed him off of his big wizard tower* onto a spiky waterwheel, but it seems like his role is more extensive in the books, so I'm looking forward to learning more about him!

*(Tolkien Gateway says it's called "Orthanc" and that is cool)

[mischieffoal]

LotR Musical: round 2

This is just a stream of consciousness, and I won't pretend it's a review or anything, it's just extra thoughts I had the second time I saw the musical. This is from September 20th, I've also just posted my notes on 4th October's show

Pre-show

Picked up friends along the way - we were all cloakèd this time! I saw Kelly and told her I loved her Instagram takeover!

Sadly raining, But! The pre show was still done, just indoors!! Met and chatted to Legolas, and Bilbo, and LOBELIA and I gave her a SPOON. Loved that they came upstairs to talk to us, it was well done for what is clearly a back up option. They still had fun dancing and playing hoopla etc downstairs on the stage

New cast member joined literally last week (Zara Naeem) and she just looks so natural and like she's always been there! R described Rosie as "the most wonderfully hobbit like person" (round face, amazing hair, and sheer energy at Bilbo's party)

I really love the ringle dance at the beginning, I think I am even more impressed by it and how tight everyone's choreo is because they're mostly dance moves I know from ceilidhs etc. Also very fun and not sure if intentional or just in character that someone in one of the 5 hand stars ended up facing the wrong way

I absolutely love knowing who they all are now. Aragorn and Arwen were dancing together!! And Pippin is often in the background of the next few scenes, playing her mandolin. I am now so much more cognisant of the foot tap greeting like I loved it last time but now I know how it's done I'm obsessed

Bilbo introduces the story with the “tell us a story” but it's clearly meant to be self-deprecating. Bilbo disappeared into the carved doors, and there's entire smoke, lighting and sound effects that don't happen outside that make it magical in a different way!

Act 1

I'd forgotten that after the party Frodo just... stands by himself in Bag End for a bit. He's burning papers - I wonder why. Just standing and thinking to himself - sings "road flow past your doorstep". Sam comes in, has a chat, then Rosie enters as well, and they're off to the ivy bush (apparently a phrase meaning ‘in secret’??). They are clearly inviting Frodo along, and Frodo is clearly not wanting to third wheel them, but as E said, they are trying to make it obvious that this is a tricycle, Frodo! He doesn't go with them. They foot tap goodbye. 

Frodo carries on reading things, then hides what he's reading when Gandalf knocks...?? Frodo protecting Sam from Gandalf is very cute and also gorgeous parallels to Sam protecting Frodo from Gollum just before mount Doom

Sam packs Mrs. Bracegirdle's plum cake - this man is always thinking of rations unlike anyone else in the entire musical (also E did eventually come to like Mrs. Bracegirdle's ever growing bakery but was at first incensed because "Bilbo makes his own plum cake!")

I love Merry and Pippin. So much.

The elves' lighting is just gorgeous and wonderful and I love how obvious the elf moments are and the clear differences between Rivendell elves and Lothlorien elves, and that Legolas is different again from both of them (it helps with important character status but also that Mirkwood (the northern forests) is a different group of people). However. We couldn't see the elf speaking to Frodo for shit (too high up). Sitting at the back of the balcony was definitely better for comfort but we did miss anything high on the back of the stage

I LOVE Saruman's line "a Dominion of light"

E pointed out that no one has mentioned that Hobbits are a different species yet. Barliman's opening different doors is absolute nonsense if you don't know they're tiny. Bill Ferny being racist is helpfully telling the audience that they're not human. I loved watching so many different characters this time! I was definitely trying to see everything I could, and I loved seeing extra things, but I'm glad I'm going again so I can truly sit back and enjoy it more calmly

Glorfindel is played by Folarin, a bald black dude. Incredible. 

Arwen's song of hope is called "lullaby" in the score, so she's diegetically singing it to Frodo, whilst Aragorn watches on. At the council - the rotation is SO COOL I noticed multiple characters who spoke as they reached the point where they were facing the audience. Insane detail to do 

Star of Yarandil my beloved. Arwen's HANDS they are just ALL OVER THE PLACE. She gives each member of the fellowship a blessing, and she lingers looking at Aragorn as she goes on to bless Boromir... also the hand movements. Damn. She's casting spells/blessings with her song and hands, and the whole ensemble then picks it up as well. They're VERY precise - literally each finger is doing something different, and they all do it in unison

Holy shit quick change - the fellowship finish star of Yarandil at Rivendell with Elrond, he leaves, then comes back on practically immediately as Saruman. I continue to be very attracted to Elrond/Saruman. They both stand very upright, but they have such different affects that they're just so clearly different characters - how?!

Frodo's face. So many emotions. My god that man. Thank you Samwise - so I'm wiser than a wizard? Extremely epic burn. Gimli's song isn't long enough!! I really appreciate it but it doesn't get enough time to shine! 

The songs really aren't musical songs - no character development or plot moments or emotions boiling over into song. They're just people singing songs. Here is a song I'm going to sing you about a story that is completely irrelevant, whilst some other characters have conversations about an entirely different bit of exposition. And that's what Tolkien is all about.

Yeah, compared to Gollum's death, Gandalf's death is sadly underwhelming

The Lothlorien elves do bird calls and Legolas calls back to them!! Hurrah for the stiff necks of elves and dwarves. Why did the movie cut this. Pippin is adorable. E also thought Legolas was in love with galadriel. Musicals out of context, y'all. Loooove the bollywood dancing here. Pippin is SO in character ALL of the time. Her facial expressions and how she dances - she's followng the choreo precisely but it's still clearly PIPPIN. They all sing with their characters voices as well, which is actually i think very hard and you don't really notice it because it's so seamless, whereas it's so easy to be dragged out of the story by singing not matching speaking voice. Galadriel's songs are a bit less fun when you can only see her legs... 

No Anduin we go straight to Boromir. Realised that there's no real explanation of the ring’s power over him, he just seems like an arsehole. I think that's why it's key that Frodo is shown more obviously corrupted, otherwise there's just no reason to like him. The three hunters are so so sweet with his death. Quick stormy music afterwards, including evil piccolo we love it

Act 2

Interval, still very rainy alas. I love Gollum so damn much . Ent moot is not actually plumbing, it's specific pipes they've added. I really really liked the scene with Denethor but it just wasn't dramatic enough. Needs opulence and significant lighting and timing and stuff I think. But I like the bones of it. The *words* of a king are healing. I love the 4 of them fighting together it seems so desperate but hopeful. Fucking love Saruman dude

Now and for always is about how hobbits don't like change. In the stories, they come back from their adventures and everything goes back to the way it was. That won't really happen here. Sam sings it to Frodo when he's stressing about destroying the Ring and losing the elves. Gollum joins in the chorus whilst hanging *upside down*. It feels so meaningful when Frodo joins in

God Aragorn and Arwen"s duet is so hot, they're so in love with each other and in each other and they kiss and yesssss (but also imagine aragorn just singing the harmony to himself alone in a room somewhere)

So Frodo decides to take the ring,  runs away to shelob's lair. Shelob doesn't get enough time to shine. She's wonderful and we don't see enough of her. Also Sam's final stab is a brilliant piece of blocking but didn't even get a second to land.

Sam saves Frodo, helps him better takes the ring to stop his burden. Isn't at all affected. Frodo wakes up, Gollum returns, they say thief, they all fight, Sam gives in and gives the ring back, then Gollum attacks. Sam protects Frodo so hard, don't talk to me or my friend ever again. God I love him. 

Wonder (again we can't see her singing) is a combo last battle build up, Mordor walking, last battle into mount Doom. Legolas and Gimli promise each other if they don't die today :) four orcs fighting. Sam hoists Frodo on his shoulders and carries him through and it has SO MUCH WEIGHT. Denethor is killed. One of the orcs is playing the trombone

Once again, I LOVE gollum's fall. Frodo and Sam put their waistcoats on as soon as they get out of the volcano before they even collapse! Aragorn fucking caresses Frodo. Our lives are forever entwined or some ridiculous romantic thing

I love Rosie!!! She's coming next time! Also who's Galadriel should she be worried

"You love the morning and my love is given to the evening" (apparently this is a Gimli and Eomer line) "But I thought we'd do it together" Fucking tear my heart out why don't you.

Sam is the aro friend when their best mate gets a girlfriend. He didn't realise what Frodo meant to him. Didn't realise Frodo didn't realise it. But I thought we'd do it together. Sing a duet and break my heart, yeah

Also now I've heard it more the dance version of now and for always is a banger 

Post-show

And then after! We spoke to Aoife! Folarin! He said that I gave Lobelia a spoon! We took a photo and he signed my art! Aaron! Peter! Matthew! Aaah!! Everyone on the train home is still insane about it all!! Hobbit step goodbyes!!

[frodo-with-glasses]

Thanks for your patience, @invisiblewashboard! Let’s talk about this little doodle. ^-^

(See the original post here!)

1. What made you want to draw this scene?

Originally, I had a plan to draw the entire confrontation with Saruman at Bag End as a series of long comics, and this would have been the final panel after Saruman’s and Wormtongue’s deaths. But by the time I got to this point, I was feeling a bit worn out; I’d already drawn A LOT for the Scouring of the Shire, spending almost a month total on the single chapter, and I didn’t have the energy for an entire comic that would ultimately end on a downer note. But I couldn’t ignore this moment—it’s important, however painful it is—so I had to draw at least this panel.

3. What does [character’s] facial expression mean/what’s going through their head?

Pippin is looking at the bodies of Wormtongue and Saruman. This is about five seconds after Frodo pulled the hem of the cloak over Saruman’s shriveled face and turned away. Pippin is still trying to come to grips with the horror of what he just saw; he’s grappling with the thought that he just saw a wizard die and a disturbed man shot down in front of his cousin’s childhood home. Is this is the end of their journey? All the toil and hardship, and this is their reward? It doesn’t really feel like a reward. It feels like there’s no boundary line between war and peace anymore. One bleeds into the other—just like Grima bleeding into the garden path on the lawn of Bag End.

19. [X] is my favorite part of this drawing; tell me more about it!

Ohohoho you KNOW how I feel about Frodo and Merry’s friendship 🤣 Throughout this read-through I’ve fallen in love with the idea that the two of them have been best friends since Merry was a lad, and even as they’re older they still have that steady, familial, almost brotherly bond. The hand on Frodo’s shoulder is a reverse parallel to this post; neither Frodo nor Merry is a particularly touchy-feely person (definitely not as much as Sam), but in moments of deep sorrow, they’ll offer sympathy through their presence and a hand on the shoulder. Merry knows this hard for Frodo. He’s thinking about how terrible he’d feel if this death and devastation happened on the doorstep of Brandy Hall instead. And he loves Frodo, so he reaches out, and he wordlessly says “I’m sorry”.

(Had I drawn the entire comic, Merry ‘s line of “and the very last end of the war, I hope” would’ve been with a gentle glance at Frodo that Frodo doesn’t notice. For his cousin’s sake—and everyone else’s—Merry hopes this is the end of the war. Please, he begs the universe, haven’t you taken enough? Please, please just let him rest.)

ARTIST COMMENTARY ASK GAME!

[pinkeoni]

Is Will the “King” of the Upside Down?

This aligns with another theory I made awhile ago, where I proposed that the Upside Down is Will’s original hiding spot.

I wanna add onto this theory by saying that not only has Will been traveling to the Upside Down long before he was taken, but he might have even been its unofficial ruler.

A point from my previous post that I want to emphasize is the fact that Vecna takes Will from and destroys Castle Byers specifically.

The series makes many direct references to The Lord of the Rings, and one character is Aragorn. (My LOTR knowledge is loose and I'm going off of Wikipedia so forgive me and feel free to correct me if something is wrong!) Aragorn is an heir to the throne of Gondor and Arnor, and part of his story arc in the LOTR trilogy includes taking up his rightful place on the throne as king.

Ergo the title of the third installment in the trilogy, Return of the King. Many have said that Will is meant to be Frodo, but Will also shares parallels to Gandalf and Saruman, so parallels do not have to be limited to one character!

So going back to my hypothesis, let's say Will was the rightful ruler of the Upside Down. When Vecna removes him from Castle Byers in season one, it's the perfect visual metaphor for how Will was removed as the king of his castle (the UD) and it was taken over by another ruler (Vecna).

The show could also be making a parallel to the first Narnia movie, in which several kids find an alternate world, and end up becoming the kings and queens of said world.

(I could also get into the Jesus theory and talk about the idea of Jesus as King blah blah blah but that's a longer theory that would take up too much time to explain, just know that it does relate to this theory)

Thematically, this could tie in with ideas of control in regards to Will. His whole life he’s had that control taken from him, but then in the end he get’s to reclaim that but taking up the helm as the literal ruler of the Upside Down.

[magfrump]

While sleeping last night and dozing this morning, I had a dream/idea of a DuckTales movie or miniseries in which the McDuck clan acted out the Lord of the Rings.

Scrooge got the role of Gandalf, who discovers the ring's importance and who has a narratively obvious reason not to carry the ring to Mordor himself.

Huey is Frodo, conflicted carrier of the ring, with Webby as Samwise to push him along. Dewey and Louie are Merry and Pippin.

Launchpad is Aragorn, Darkwing and Gizmoduck are Legolas and Gimli, Mrs. Beakley is Eowin.

Gyro Gearloose is Galadriel, Magicka de Spell is Saruman, the orcs are all beagle boys. Lots of stuff works well as parallels.

But the best bit is Flintheart Gollumgold.

[aemiron-main]

ST Movie Parallel Posts

ST vs Tommy (1975)

Henry’s Shattered Mirror Scene Is A Direct Tommy Parallel (x)

The Creels’ Stained Glass Door vs The Stained Glass Door In Tommy (x)

The First Shadow and Tommy (x)

Mike’s Hair and Costume Being Inspired By Pete Townshend From The Who (x)

Will and Tommy and Mirrors and S2 Episodes/Visions (x)

More ST vs Tommy Parallels (x)

Nora Walker, Virginia Creel, and Gaslighting (x)

ST vs Silent Hill (2006)

Initial Vecna and Alessa Parallel (x)

Burnt Alessa vs Vecna Design Parallel (x)

ST vs The Changeling (1980)

Initial Post About The Wheelchair In The Creel Attic Vs The Wheelchair In The Attic In The Changeling (x)

ST vs LOTR

The Shadow(s) of The Past and TFS vs LOTR (x)

I’d Say You're Asking Me to Follow You Into Mordor: Eddie Munson, Mordor, Edward Creel, and March 22nd (x)

Sauron vs Saruman and Henry Creel vs Will Byers and Will Being Directly Paralleled To Saruman (x)

Birthdaygate, March 22nd and LOTR (x)

Mount Doom vs The Cracks of Doom vs The UD Cracks (x)

The Mount Doom-Esque Volcano Photo With Scott and The Party (x)

Initial Post About 001 vs Annatar (x)

Another Post About Will and Saruman and Saruman of Many Colours (x)

Demobats Are Totally Based On Fellbeasts (x)

ST vs The Hobbit Movies

Thrain and Victor Parallels and The Keyhole On The Grandfather Clock (x)

[starsofarda]

And I am here once again crying over The Two Towers.

When I feel low and depression strikes me I rewatch/reread the LotR trilogy and my favourite of the three books is the Two Towers.

I am 100% sure that Tolkien did not intend that, but I feel like it is a very good metaphor for depression et al.

Especially when we see Rohan, King Theoden and his people for the first time.

King Theoden is under Saruman's spell, has been for a while, Grima is poisoning his mind and cutting away all the good support system the King usually relies on, aka Eomer and the Rohirrim, the king's son dies, Eowyn is trapped between hammer and anvil and the whole thing feels hopeless.

Come on. This is King THeoden in the deepest thralls of his mental health issues Saruman's spell.

And then Gandalf arrives and - yeah, I did that in one of the "I can't articulate stuff" moments:

And King Theoden breathes again, finding once again his will to fight and live. Just like my own experiences with my mental health, but I ill not unpack that here.

And the thing is, it's not like King THeoden is suddenly happy, the struggle carries on:

"Who am I Gamling?"

"You are our King."

"And do you trust your King?"

And then again:

"Where is the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing? They have passed like rain on the mountain, like wind in the meadow. The days have gone down in the West behind the hills into shadow."

And once again, at Helm's deep:

"So much death. What can men do against such reckless hate?"

And yet Aragorn is there to support him,saying "Ride with me" and the consequent quote really drives in thepoint for me. He is struggling, but he will not let evil overcome everything.

"The horn of Helm Hammerhand shall sound in the deep one last time. Let this be the hour when we draw swords together. Fell deeds awake. Now for wrath, now for ruin, and the red dawn. Forth Èorlingas!"

I find this such a good metaphor for mental health and its struggles, all of this gives me so much hope and courage - and here I am crying again.

This is paralleled wel with Frodo and his own struggle against the ring's power and Sam is there reminding him that the struggle is real, but we have to keep going on nevertheless.

I love this piece of media/book so much.

This constantly strikes a chord in me and reminds me, a disabled, chronically ill person that I too have my own Saruman and Grima and my own Uruk-hai to fight against. I have my own Rohan to defend.

Now, again, Tolkien probably never meant to tell Rohan and King Theoden this way, but is this not the beauty of finding something that we can relate to that can help us on our own journey?

Anyway, I love Rohan, I love the character of King Theoden, Eowyn and Eomer and I just wanted to get this out in the sun.

I am now going to cry more.

[fictionadventurer]

Rapid-fire thoughts about Book IV of The Two Towers:

Frodo is extremely lucky that Gollum showed up, because how on Middle Earth did he plan on getting to Mount Doom without him? He had no clue what kind of terrain he was going into. No map. No guide. Going it alone is noble and all, but he really did not have a viable plan for making it work.

There's something to explore in the fact that Sam and Gollum both call Frodo "Master." They butt heads at least partly because they're in similar roles. Sam is the faithful servant and Gollum the treacherous one.

I really appreciate that after three extremely bleak chapters in hellish landscapes, Tolkien gives us an entire chapter of "They went to a slightly wrecked but mostly lovely landscape, and Sam looked at all the flowers and cooked a nice meal."

Forever mad that the movies left out Ithilien. That is a great setting. There is a hideaway behind a waterfall looking out to the sunset! So much cinematic potential wasted.

It's interesting to me that Faramir is reliably described as "grave", while also being shown smiling and joking a lot. It's kind of an odd sense of humor, too. ("The ring has come to me with a host of Gondor at my command" is grimly funny from his POV, but saying all that to Sam and Frodo is still pretty mean.)

There's also something interesting in Sam and Faramir's dynamic. Faramir's the character who most often treats Sam as a servant, making a big deal about calling Frodo his master. He scolds him and kind of pokes fun at him. But there's also a lot of respect. ("The Shire must be a peaceful place where gardeners are held in high esteem.") Maybe it's to do with the fact that they're both servants who are happy to serve and have no ambitions to attain higher rank.

I can see why Tolkien struggled with the ideas of portraying orcs as totally evil. On a conceptual level it can work, but portraying them as characters in a narrative gives them humanity. You can believe that something like Shelob is totally evil and needs slaying. But orcs are just guys. They're capable of rational speech. They hold conversations and make plans for the future. Listening to them talk among themselves is kind of like listening to workers stuck under a tough boss. Yeah, they're okay with horrible things, but they're also just trying to get by. It's hard to see them as completely evil when there's a possibility that they're being misled by a greater evil the way that plenty of other races are.

Both Fellowship and Two Towers end with a betrayal that splinters the group. Gollum and Boromir as parallels as people who both covet the ring?

I really fell in love with Frodo as a character in this book. Right from the beginning, the way he treats Gollum has a lot of parallels with how Gandalf treated Saruman and Pippin in the last book. He's patient and wise and commanding but still very fallible.

Catholic Tolkien experience is getting to the scene where Sam and Frodo call upon Galadriel, and it's absolutely impossible not to see parallels to calling for the Blessed Virgin's intercession.

And there's a ton of Christ imagery. The ring as the cross. His apparent death leaving his follower unsure of what to do next. Sam's sort of the loyal disciple who follows him to his death, and sort of the unfaithful one who leaves him (though in this case he's just trying to do his best when he truly believes Frodo is dead and he's got to carry on the quest.)

This book ends upon a cliffhanger. Is this where the "ending book 2 of the trilogy on a cliffhanger" trend started?