#This is specifically directed at people that say Bruce NEVER actually adopted Dick | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

bigskydreaming · 3 years

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I am looking (disrespectfully) at the trope of Bruce and other family members only seeming to respect Dick’s wishes when doing so aligns with what they already wanted to do.

Let’s go to the examples!

1) Bruce not broaching adoption with Dick because he wants to respect Dick’s first parents and feels like he would be taking their place or overstepping or putting himself in between Dick and his memories of his parents. Sometimes its cited that Dick himself expressed this wish early on after his parents died, sometimes its not and this is still just upheld as Bruce’s reasoning for not adopting Dick before he was already well into adulthood.

THE FATAL FLAW (in mine own personal opinion, natch. Personal mileage may vary, check your speedometer to be safe):

This particular plot point or tangle is in my experience ALWAYS paired with Bruce’s own insecurities about his role in Dick’s life, or not wanting to push that or receive an answer he doesn’t want to or is afraid to hear. Sometimes its about his fears of unworthiness to be Dick’s actual parent, etc, etc. But the bottom line is, there is always the presence of SOME element (and not a small one) in which Bruce’s own self-interest or feelings are protected by him NOT broaching the adoption conversation with Dick and having to confront these fears head on.

This is additionally juxtaposed with the problem that although there’s a lot of variance in regards to stories where Bruce fired Dick versus stories where Dick gave up being Robin and moved on to Nightwing voluntarily....there’s NOT a lot of stories where Dick makes Jason Robin himself or is asked by Bruce first. The part where Bruce takes this initiative on his own, without thinking through its repercussions on Dick emotionally.....this is practically always present.

Now, the problem here is that......Dick became or began becoming Robin well into his time with Bruce. Its frequently cited as the thing that began allowing them to truly connect, their time training and acting as Batman and Robin.

Meaning no matter WHAT interpretation you go with as to why specifically Dick chose the name Robin, whether it was a family nickname or an homage to Robin Hood.....the fact remains, NOTHING of Robin, THEMATICALLY, nothing that spoke to Dick in regards to what he wanted Robin to be - specifically in honor of his parents because avenging his parents and making sure what happened to them didn’t happen to others like, this was literally a key part of what bonded Dick and Bruce, the fact that Bruce was TRYING to help Dick specifically BECAUSE they shared this particular overlap of purpose - like the bottom line is, nothing about Robin CAME from Bruce. Or Dick’s feelings about Bruce. That....didn’t really even exist yet, at the time he created Robin. Everything about Robin, other than the physical costume itself, not even the design just the actual creation of it....all of that came from BEFORE he met Bruce. None of it was thoughts or feelings derived from BRUCE. Its the whole reason Dick was never Batkid or Batlad, or any derivative of Batman.

It all, ALL came from what Dick came to the manor WITH. Remnants of his life with his first family.

So the fatal flaw of Bruce’s reasoning that by not broaching the subject of adoption with Dick before well into adulthood, he was actually just respecting Dick’s relationship with his first parents and not trying to come between them and Dick’s memories and feelings about them....

All of this is inherently undermined by Bruce’s own actions.....when by repurposing Robin to ANY degree, even just to give the mantle to Jason.....this meant that he was inherently viewing Robin as being more about being Batman’s partner, HIS partner....then it was about being Dick’s heritage, his last intangible keepsake of his first family and life BEFORE Bruce.

In effect....Bruce making Jason Robin or firing Dick as Robin, either way....both betray Bruce’s OWN alleged intentions for only wanting to respect Dick’s relationship with his parents, and that being why he didn’t want to overstep by trying to impose or even ask for his own official parent/child relationship with Dick. Because that’s exactly what appropriating the Robin mantle was. It was Bruce ignoring the relationship Dick had with his parents and their memory and the fact that Robin was directly born of that....and making Robin entirely about Bruce’s OWN relationship with Dick, heedless of any other factors.

And the second Bruce did that.....his entire justification for not raising the adoption issue....disappears. It goes away. Because you can’t claim inaction being just a result of not wanting to disrespect something you’ve already voided respect for. No matter whether Bruce INTENDED it or not.....by crossing this boundary, Bruce already acted against Dick’s feelings in this regard and well, disregarded them....which makes claims of Bruce not raising the adoption issue pretty much JUST self-serving at that point. Its an alleged viewpoint of Dick’s that Bruce largely just ASSUMES....and only ultimately respects - in direct contrast to how he didn’t respect the associations Dick had with Robin - because it aligns with something Bruce ALREADY wanted to do, rather than what Dick actually wanted. It provided justification for Bruce to just....not have a conversation he was afraid to have. And that’s about Bruce at that point. Its not about Dick. Its just like...not.

2) Another example of this that is not unique to just Bruce, but recurs frequently in both canon and fanfics in Dick’s dynamics with other characters he’s close with.....is characters not apologizing for things they’ve done to Dick or raising the issue of things they did a long time ago but never apologized for....while claiming to do so because they thought DICK didn’t want to talk about it.

THE FATAL FLAW (in my own personal opinion. Nuances and variations may not be identical at all store locations, please see your local branch for details):

The particular problem I have here is that....Dick never ever ever in the history of ever and also the before ever time.....has EVER expressed a desire to avoid confrontation.

Like. That’s what he DOES. That’s his JAM. That’s literally CITED time and time again as one of the reasons he’s viewed as more of a people person and natural team leader than Bruce and other Batfam members....because he’s not afraid to cut straight (or bi) to the heart of the matter and air out a dispute.

In fact, this very character trait is one of the ones most commonly utilized AGAINST Dick in various depictions of him, as he’s often cited as TOO confrontational, TOO eager for a fight or conflict especially when his temper is engaged, such as when he’s well....personally hurt or offended.

So how does it follow, then, that avoiding tough conversations ONLY when its on the OTHER person to INITIATE, because they were the ones who DID the wrong-doing and Dick the subject of that rather than the instigator....how does it work, exactly, that these are the only times in which we DON’T tend to see a direct conversation about the harms done and the fallout that resulted? With it being claimed that this is solely for Dick’s benefit, out of a desire to avoid pulling him into an allegedly unnecessary (but really just unpleasant) confrontation?

When the concurrent reality is that whether stated or acknowledged or not.....avoiding these specific conversations and ONLY these conversations (as there never seems to be a problem finding canon or fanfic stories in which Dick apologizes for harm HE’S caused to others or is clearly expected to).....this avoidance also carries the side benefit of allowing the character who DID something wrong to Dick to....not ever have to have that super uncomfortable conversation in which they actually verbally acknowledge the thing they did to him and the effects it had on him, and apologize for that.....and then render themselves vulnerable to actually hearing whether or not he accepts their apology or is still upset with them regardless.

While - as long as they DON’T ever have this conversation, for whatever reason - they can look to the clear and consistent precedent of Dick continuing to work with people who have done things like oh, I don’t know....punched him in the face cuz they’re mad at him (and this isn’t a Bruce critical point, this is a whole damn family critical point as the only one who HASN’T actually done this is Duke. Well, Cass technically just threw him out a window, but I mean, tomato toh-mah-to). Writers and characters both can lean on the fact that actually Dick has a pretty clear track record of ultimately giving up a grudge or at least showing a willingness to look past those grudges enough that it doesn’t prevent him from still maintaining or resuming some kind of relationship with the person who hurt him.

And thus, like Example Numero Uno......this ultimately just lets other characters off the hook while claiming to do Dick a favor, but actually Dick receives no real benefit from it and instead now just has another instance of characters saying “see we respect your wishes” when ultimately their inaction is MORE in service to their own wishes and self-interests.

2b) See also the variation of this in which characters such as Bruce, Jason, Tim and assorted others like....are written specifically determining that they’re not going to apologize to Dick or beg his forgiveness because they feel they don’t DESERVE to be forgiven, and once again....its in HIS best interests that they not even give him the opportunity to say he forgives them....because they know Dick Grayson of course, and they know he’s too forgiving for his own good, so its better to like....not make it ever a possibility in this particular instance.

With the problem here being like.....Dick can’t and shouldn’t be expected to KNOW that’s their logic? So....all he’s going to actually SEE is loved ones just....not expressing remorse for hurting him or acknowledgment it even happened? Which....hurts?

So......hurting your loved one MORE after already hurting them....because you don’t feel you deserve to be forgiven for hurting them in the first place and are actually PROTECTING them from being hurt more when mistakenly forgiving you.....by.....hurting and continuing to hurt them with your silence and lack of evident remorse....

Mmmm.....

Its not the best approach, y’know?

Flaws are detected.

3) Dick’s friends and family manipulating situations in order to get the end result THEY desire, while claiming to do so for his benefit only. Dick being willing to manipulate people to achieve his own ends comes up a LOT actually....but there’s relatively little examination of how often people do this to him, claiming his best interests but really just circumventing his clearly stated desires for independence and the right to make his own choices about what HE needs....or when this is brought up, its usually limited to JUST Bruce doing it, but uh....no that ain’t it.

Specific examples of this are like when Wally joins the 1999 version of the Titans specifically to get Dick to join up, because in his estimation Dick needs more of a social life and is drowning himself with his responsibilities....and then quits not long after Dick is finally officially invested in staying with the team. Another example is when Roy gets Dick to join the Outsiders based entirely on his pitch of NOT treating the team like a family, like they did with the Titans, so that Dick could keep emotional distance and not be as worried about losing them like he suffered from losses like Donna....with his claim again being that he worried about Dick in the aftermath of that loss, etc.

And to be clear! Its not that I think Wally and Roy and others who do similar things have NEGATIVE intentions in mind for Dick. That’s the whole point of this post.....like the other examples, I fully believe THEY believe (or writers believe when writing them this way) that they have Dick’s best interests in mind and not their own. I just....disagree.

THE FATAL FLAW (at least as I see it here):

Is that I view this and Batfam members who do similar stuff as like.....falling into the trap of the savior friend complex. Its that thing when you see a friend hurting, and over time get FRUSTRATED by seeing this when a solution seems obvious to you but think they won’t take it because they’re too stubborn or don’t know what’s best for them....with this specifically recurring a LOT with Dick in particular, due to his core characterization of wanting to be the one to make his own choices. The problem here, same as the problem with the savior friend complex....is that it treats the subject of these views as like....incapable of determining what they need. Its a tacit condemnation that they actually don’t know how to cope with things and are doing it wrong - even though the ones making this assessment will never be the ones actually having to LIVE with the outcome of their meddling. Its the conviction that someone like Dick needs to be HANDLED, for his own good....because he can’t be trusted to KNOW what he needs, not as well as them at least.....and so they jump to manipulation rather than just....ASK him what he needs, or HOW they can best support him, or even just WHY he’s making the choices he is.

For instance, the problem with what Wally did was never that Dick wasn’t struggling. He was. He was drowning in his responsibilities, he had very little to no life outside of them.....Wally is not remotely in the wrong for WANTING to do something to change this situation. The problem is Wally basically defaulted to just...HANDLING his friend by restarting the Titans just to give Dick a social life again, which is pretty much a line straight out of the comics...and basically railroaded right over Dick’s initial ‘no’ when he first heard the proposal. And kept pushing things until Dick eventually joined up in order to get Wally to commit to the team too, because Wally spun it as though Dick was helping Wally by getting Wally to commit to the team for the very same reasons Wally wanted Dick to. And then....right after that, Wally quit to go back to just focusing on the Justice League, which was part of what Dick predicted would happen all along.

The thing was.....at no point along the way did Wally actually ask WHY Dick initially said no....he jumped straight to assuming his own view of the problem, that Dick just COULDN’T be made to ever see the reason to take a break occasionally and put his mental and emotional health as a priority. If he’d done this, Wally could have had dozens of other options to achieve his desired end result....he could’ve like....set up regular hangouts with Dick.

But Wally jumped to assuming he knew the answer, he knew what was best for Dick, and that Dick’s logic was inherently self-destructive and self-flagellating.....and he felt the solution was to bring back the Titans, as he recalled their earlier times as Titans together as a time when Dick was better able to balance his social life and responsibilities.

But by not ever stopping to LISTEN to why Dick felt the way he did and was initially opposed to rejoining the Titans....Wally overlooked one crucial fact: He isn’t Dick.

And more important, his view of the past wasn’t Dick’s view of the past.

Wally was a lot more capable of viewing the Titans as not just a family, but an inherent social life, a hangout, a kind of club....because that’s what it had always been to him.

But he’d never been the leader.

Throughout all their childhoods, the whole time the Titans WERE all of the above, and relatively light-hearted in comparison to their older selves....Dick STILL had the weight of responsibilities that none of the others had by virtue of just...not being the leader. Ultimately, all of their lives were in HIS hands. He was the one calling the shots. The buck stopped with him.

And this is precisely WHY Dick had gotten to the point he had in adulthood. It wasn’t because he’d changed. It wasn’t because he’d stopped figuring out what he needed and how to take care of himself. Its because the position he’d ALWAYS been in as leader....has WEIGHT. That eventually added up more and more and weighed him down. A huge part of the reason Dick had ended up leaving the Titans in the first place, before they disbanded prior to the 1999 revival....is because of the sheer WEIGHT of all the deaths and misfortunes that had befallen the Titans....and how much he and he alone struggled with it in ways the others didn’t....because they didn’t have to. It hadn’t been their plans, their calls, their RESPONSIBILITY to find a way the others could have all made it out alive or at least less traumatized.

So.....of COURSE Dick said no when Wally first proposed restarting the Titans, before Wally defaulted to using his own membership as a lure to get Dick to agree.....because......nothing about the above paragraph had changed, via Wally’s ‘plan.’ It wasn’t because Dick just didn’t KNOW how to be a fully rounded person....it was because nobody was helping him find actual OPTIONS for doing that....that didn’t just double as MORE responsibilities! Because that’s exactly what ended up happening! Dick wound up the leader of the Titans again, just as responsible and just as invested as always.....just like he always knew he would....and also as he knew would happen...Wally ended up quitting not long into it and persuading Jessie Quick to step in as his replacement....aka just one more person for Dick to worry about when it wasn’t like he was going to be worrying any less about Wally, just now he wasn’t going to have Wally there to even POTENTIALLY be able to support him when tragedy inevitably struck because they’re freaking superheroes....and instead he’d just have another person looking to him for the answers but with no reason or chance of being the support Dick could ACTUALLY use at times like that!

Wally’s manipulations circumvented Dick’s opinion that no, actually he knew what was best for him and it wasn’t what Wally was suggesting....without actually accounting for the fact that hey, Dick might actually know that. And in the end, Wally got the result he was after, he got to feel that he’d HELPED his friend....which again, this isn’t WRONG to WANT to....but Dick didn’t...exactly....benefit from this. It wasn’t actually in his best interests ultimately.

I mean...see Donna’s death for details.

And in the aftermath of THAT....Roy essentially did exactly what Wally did....just in REVERSE! Roy got Dick to agree to lead the Outsiders, to shoulder responsibility once again....by promising that Dick WOULDN’T have to view them as family. And did Dick go too far and end up TOO uncaring about their welfare? Yup! No disagreements there! Problem is though....he only ended UP in that situation because yet again a friend thought they KNEW the solution to what Dick needed.....only for Dick to end up essentially punished and further self-blaming....just for doing exactly what Roy had told him TO do, with this particular team. Again - Roy hadn’t EXPECTED Dick to take it this far. But that’s the whole point! Roy had expectations about what Dick would ACTUALLY end up doing, that didn’t match up to the pitch Roy actually gave Dick to GET his agreement.....because Roy all along was of the assumption that by virtue of being Dick Grayson, he wouldn’t be ABLE to avoid connecting with these new teammates and viewing them as family, and thus he’d end up ‘snapping out of it’ with it being the funk he’d been in since Donna’s death.

Roy’s intentions might have been noble, once again.....but his methods stuck to the same pattern of people around Dick believing they knew what he needed or knew who he was or knew what it meant to BE Dick Grayson....better than Dick actually did...particularly when Dick said no, this isn’t what I need or this isn’t a good idea or just...I don’t want to do this.

And in the end....its Dick who ended up paying the price for it, as well as the people who got hurt because of his INTENTIONAL emotional distance.....because the ‘view all surrounding people as new surrogate family’ aspect of the Dick Grayson Experience hadn’t kicked in as Roy thought inevitably would....but the ‘view all this as directly my fault and suffer guilt for it forevermore’ aspect of the Dick Grayson Experience most certainly did! Not at all actually helped along by the fact that like....Roy also expressed frustration with Dick that like.....Dick hadn’t actually responded to Roy’s intended manipulation of his emotions the way Roy had expected him to when he EXPRESSLY TOLD DICK TO BEHAVE THE WAY THAT DICK ULTIMATELY BEHAVED. (Just, he didn’t tell Dick to dial that all the way up to Extra, but given that’s the only setting Dick does ANYTHING at, I feel its a possible outcome Roy should have at least considered. I mean, wasn’t the whole point that you know Dick Grayson better than he knows himself?)

But lo, I am salty.

LMAO, but I mean, you get it right? Obviously, I LIKE Wally and Roy. I LIKE Jason, etc. I’m not saying all of this to be like ugh how dare these characters do all this to Dick....I’m saying it because like.....they all keep falling into the same patterns of making a big fuss and acknowledgment of how much Dick prioritizes being able and free to make his own choices and decide what’s best for him and what HE wants.....

But without ever like....actively asking him AT THE RELEVANT TIME....what he thinks and feels about all this. What he thinks and feels he needs. What he ACTUALLY wants from them, or why he’s ACTUALLY saying no to something and maybe it being for reasons that aren’t just him inherently being stubborn and self-destructive.

And instead just defaulting to falling back on whatever he might have said or expressed in an entirely different context at an entirely different time.....and saying okay, by doing so, we are abiding by his wishes and thus doing what he wants and respecting his right to make his own choices.....

But ONLY when doing all of the above just so happens to align with these other characters then getting to do the thing or take the approach they’re already predisposed towards wanting to take because of their OWN self-interests at the same time.

With this never actually coming into play when respecting Dick’s wishes aligns with them taking actions they DON’T personally want to undertake, because it makes them uncomfy or they think its a bad call, even if it is something that should be his call to make.

Like....the pattern. It very much exists. And abounds. Like I could cite examples allllllllllll the way up to Ric Grayson, where Bruce respected RIC’S wishes to be left alone and not interfere in his life no matter what.....in ways Bruce almost never respects Dick’s actual expressed wish for Bruce to butt out of matters when Bruce is actually quite keen on meddling and would very much like to....

But notice how the other thing about the Ric Grayson storyline is that Ric’s expressed desire to stay the fuck out of vigilantism and superhero work, like.....just so happens to align with Bruce’s longstanding desire for Dick to like...get out of the vigilantism and superhero work? With butting out of Ric’s life and respecting his privacy in ways Dick has to FIGHT him for, like......absolutely the optimal action to take in order to allow this expressed desire of Ric’s to flourish in the ways Bruce always wished would kick in for Dick?

.....just saying.

The pattern. It abounds.

And the key to breaking any pattern, of course, is to first recognize....and acknowledge....that it exists.

Otherwise you tend to fall into the trap of repeating and perpetuating it over and over without even realizing it, simply because its what’s familiar.

This has been A Post by Me. Thank you and have a nice day. Or don’t. Idk. I’m not the boss of you. Whatever.

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eat0crow · 5 years

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Maribat prompt - Bruce adopts Marinette please? (Sorry if I misunderstood and this is what you did Not want. If that's the case just ignore this, sorry)

Nope, you didn’t misunderstand at all Anon! I hope you don’t mind a bit of humor, I had a really shitty night-so many customers decided to yell at me it’s not even funny. I needed something lighthearted.

Beta read by some lovely people on the Maribat Discord server.

Who Needs Paperwork?

Bruce is done. So painfully done, that the only one who can’t see just how thin a line he’s walking is the source of his annoyance. Hal Jordan, the very man who makes homicide look more appealing every day. Did Bruce really need a moral code?

It just seemed to get in the way.

From behind him doors slam, people scatter, and yet Hal won’t catch the hint. “All I’m saying is that, isn’t it time you guys settled down, and had a whole flock of little birdies?”

Bruce has never, not once in his life, desired friends. He hadn’t wanted a relationship either, yet here he is, six months into a decades in the making relationship with Clark Kent. If Bruce had known that the League would take his relationship as a sign of him getting soft, he would have sworn Clark to secrecy.

“I’m going to the training room.” Which should have roughly translated to 'follow me, and I’ll use you for target practice'. Several people within hearing distance shudder at the implication. Bruce is darkly satisfied; he hasn’t seen this much fear directed at him in months. Hal Jordan, well Bruce has theories on how green lantern cores affect intelligence.

None of them are particularly positive.

“It’s never too early to start working on your ninja kid army,” Hal says lightly, as if he’s talking about the weather, and not something as morally bankrupt as child soldiers. Sure he trained Robin young, but it’s not like Bruce had a choice. Dick would have been fighting mob bosses with or without his consent. Training had been the only thing keeping him out of even more danger. “Who’s going to carry on your terrifying legacy?”

“I already have Robin.” And because Bruce can see Hal’s next sentence before he even says it— “And Clark has Conner. Aside from procreation being wholly unnecessary, it’s also physically impossible. You are aware that it requires a woman to produce off-spring, right?”

“Yeah, tell that to LexCorp,” Hal mumbles under his breath. Bruce would be lying if he said he hadn’t ever wondered about that. Sure Conner’s a clone, but he’s also the most stable clone Bruce had ever seen. He wouldn’t put it past Luthor to have spliced in a secondary set of DNA. “Just think about it Spooky. Combine your brains with Clark’s powers and bam! You’ve got the one person on earth who could defeat Doomsday without breaking a sweat. Isn’t that a better tomorrow?”

Bruce stops, because things make a lot more sense now. Doomsday had been terrifying, he opened up a whole world of possibilities. Of threats too strong for the League to deal with, just waiting. There’s no escaping this conversation. Even if he tunes it out now, Hal will just bring it up again and again, until Clark finally catches on. That will make the man pout.

Bruce really doesn’t like it when Clark pouts.

He might not have the patience to deal with Hal’s solution to apocalypse inducing threats now, but he’ll have even less later when Barry no doubt joins Hal’s crusade. One idiot is bad enough. Bruce is not willing to explain to Dick why he killed his best friend's uncle.

“That’s why the Young Justice League was formed,” Bruce points out slowly, his voice careful, like he’s explaining the concept to a toddler. Hal probably has an I.Q that stalled around the fifth grade, so same difference. “Their role is to carry on our legacies in protecting earth after we’re unable.”

“That’s not what I mean! Sure, by the time they graduate out of the little leagues they’ll be ready to take over, but that’s just it. They’re a miniature Justice League. They’ll have the exact same blind spots as us. I’m talking about combining skill sets here.”

Bruce actually hadn’t thought of that, and as much as the words choke him to admit, Hal is right. They would be subject to the exact same failings as the current League. They’re a group trained to take over specific positions. They’ve been trained for years and no one, not even Robin, would be able to break close to half a decades worth of habits.

They make it to the training room, and a flash of vivid, bright red catches his eye. The newest member, Ladybug is talking to Clark. Bruce hadn’t been aware that he would be joining him for this training session, but it all works out nicely.

Ladybug looks worn, and Bruce doesn’t doubt she is. The girl is Diana’s apprentice, not sidekick. They've both been adamant about that. No one, not even Diana, knows her identity. Bruce could respect a healthy dose of secrecy, but she’s only around Dick’s age. The information on her is scarce, and Diana is tight-lipped. Partially out of ignorance and partially out of some vague magical pact her mother made.

A combined skillset.

Ladybug doesn't have years of habits to break. If her own admissions are anything to go by, she doesn’t have any formal training outside of noncombatant magic. She’s dangerously smart too. Bruce has seen her improvise enough times. Sure, she might not have as much super-strength as Clark, but Bruce has seen her lift far more than her frame should allow. Maybe strength proportional to a ladybug’s? Her skin is certainly reinforced by what has to be the tensile strength of an exoskeleton.

Which is glossing over her ability to create solid matter through pure will—maybe he'll have Hal train her a bit, her powers are similar enough to a Green Lanterns’.

“You have a point, Lantern.”

There’s a suspicious pause. “I do?”

Bruce offers him his most deadpan expression. So even Hal knows that ninety percent of what leaves his mouth is garbage, good to know. “The League will be comprised of individuals with the same failings as current Leaguers. In the event of world-ending threats, we can not afford these failings. So I will be taking your advice.”

“Oh, that’s...good.” Hal looks perplexed, like he hadn’t expected his argument to land him anywhere but in a body cast.

“However,” Bruce continues, walking over toward Clark and Ladybug. “I have no interest in experimental science that’s no doubt illegal in numerous countries. So, we’ll be adopting.”

“We will!” Clark shrieks from his left.

Everyone else in the room gasps. Bruce ignores them, reaching out instead to grab Ladybug. “She’ll be the perfect candidate.”

"Bruce," Clark whines. "That's not how adoption works. You've skipped so many steps."

Bruce sends him a pointed look, the one that says play along or you're sleeping on the couch. Clearly, Clark gets the message because he shuts up. The look on his face also implies that Bruce is going to be out in the dog house for this stunt, but he chooses to ignore it anyway.

So what if Alfred likes Clark more. Bruce still owns the house.

Ladybug, to her credit, only blinks.

Wide blue eyes stare at him, she looks eerily similar to Dick and Conner. They all share the same coloring: black hair, blue eyes, and pale skin. She has Dick’s delicate bone structure, Bruce could probably pass the two of them off as twins.

Dick is going to be roped into teaching her some actual acrobatics as soon as possible. Would a grappling hook be an appropriate ‘welcome to the family’ gift? Bruce doesn't trust her yo-yo.

A beat passes. “I already have parents.”

“Not superhero parents.”

#maribat #crow writes #dcu #clark kent/bruce wayne #bruce wayne #hal jordan #marinette dupain cheng

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ellana-ravenwood · 5 years

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Batfam moments I think about a lot and wish we'd have more stories of...

1. Bruce Wayne learning how to "dad" and making SO MANY MISTAKES. But we see him evolve over the years, and slowly getting used to it. He will always have communication problems, and have moments when he's a total jerk. Let's not forget he's only human, and we all have bad moments. Buuuuut, he’s the kind of father to go make a detour to buy his kids their favorite dinner (and yes, all of them, like before he comes home to Wayne Manor, I can see him go to différent take aways and bring back their favorite food haha).

Or like, remembering exactly what they’re into lately and looking stuffs up on the internet to get up to date. I bet sometimes they’d talk about a band or video games and Bruce would be like : “Oh yes, I particularly like the battle mode of this blahblahblah” and they’d all be stunned haha. I think he has a special way of loving. It’s not always obvious, out there right in your face, but it’s most definitely there.

His children are his strength (as shown in many stories... In more stories in fact, that the ones that exists where he's a total dick to them). And he cares for them in his own way, which can sometimes appear cold and such, while it's just that he doesn't always know how to react. Like. We have to remember his background, it's not really surprising he has communication problems and such things. But he cares... So much.

He's thé kind of dad that goes out of his way to please his kids, even if said kids don't even notice the small things he does for them because ya know, hé just does it and they're used to it and it's only as they grow up they truly realize how out of his way he went for them etc etc. À discreet , pure and différent way of loving. He knows them, hé truly does. “You don’t even know me !” one of them would say after a fight, out of anger, and he would answer : “I do.” confidently, and they’d be like : “PROVE IT THEN !” and Bruce would enumerates everything he can think of about them. Favorite color, favorite meal, favorite book, favorite tv show, hobbies, crushes, fears etc etc...Anyway. Yes.

I just want scenes of him slowly learning how to be a father, and not being the best about it all the time, yet trying his best and it’s obvious he does. We forget sometimes what he went through, and what it truly means for him to adopt and take care of those kids. We forget often that he became Batman, mainly because he does not want any other kid to experience what he went through. Bruce as à father is far from perfect, and hé makes shit tons of mistakes, but he tries, and hé loves them deeply. I think that's why I really hate canon lately, they turned him into à mindless brute who genuinely abusés his kids. It's so, so, so bad, and goes against decades of stories. It's written by people that think "edgy" is à personality trait and what people nowadays love (which is totally false). I'm pretty sûre that for all the canon examples of him being à jerk to the Batkids, I can pull out about ten times more examples of him being à good dad. Again. He's flawed because he's human, and he's difficult to understand at times... But no one will ever make me believe he doesn't love his children with all his heart.

2. Young Jason being super surprised that Bruce is actually a very good cook because he always pictured filthy rich people never doing anything themselves...and Bruce being like : “You know, I was mostly raised by Alfred. Of course he would teach me basic house skills.” while flipping expertly the food in the pan. Alfred one day telling the kids something like : “Everyone always think Master Wayne is a bubbly idiot who cannot work his way around a house, but this is very wrong. He has been changing his own sheets ever since he was 7, and his parents already made sure that he would know what house work is, so he could treat the servants right by seeing how difficult it can be. When his parents died, I took care of him, and there was a long moment he would follow me around everywhere, maybe in fear that I would go, too...During those moments, I taught him a lot.” And then just Bruce showing à few things to his own kids, as à parallèlism to how him and Alfred were (and still are) ❤️.

3. A direct follow up of the one above, Bruce teaching his kids all kind of stuffs. How to play piano, how to fall without hurting yourself, how to cook, how to fight, how to ride a bike for those who didn’t know etc etc...A perfect mix of totally normal domestic stuffs, and of night vigilante stuffs. I bet he’d make up “escape games” for his kids on boring Sunday afternoons, because it’d develop a lot of their skills needed to be Robins (or whoever) AND is fun. I think the reverse totally works too, the kids teaching him things. Like, how to play that video game, how to use slang without sounding like an old man, how to paint his nails, blahblahblah. Just moments together, because they spend so much time with each others like, come on. They have hobbies too. And care about each others enough to want to know about it, and share stuffs etc etc. Growing together, ya know ?

4. More crossover moments with the entire family, not just one or two character : John Constantine being there to ask help for a thing (or not asking help but Bruce wouldn’t let anyone “tamper” with Gotham without him being there so...haha). Zatanna coming around to teach the kids some magic (just like her dad did with Bruce...not “real” magic but like, escape magic and all), or something. Green Arrow making à courtesy visit with his wife, son, and sidekicks. The Superfam and their strong bonds with the Batfam being shown more, and not always in that “rival” way. And like, all of them, not just one or two characters at a time. Sunday lunches at the Kent farm, gaming nights (to which Bruce is dragged to), friendly compétitions, blahblahblah.

5. “Baby” Dick having nightmares in the middle of the night of his parents’ death, and Bruce always being there. How Bruce understands and is always around for him. And reassures him. And on that note : I’m sure most of the kids have nightmares during the night, and Bruce becomes better and better over the years at soothing them. Oh also, if Dick, after he goes and lives in Bludhaven comes to sleep at Wayne Manor for any reasons and has a nightmare, Bruce will just automatically go to him...awkward and cute scene ensues haha.

6. Cass’ first words to Bruce. A very emotional scenes because...it’s the first time she speaks. And it’s clumsy and she’s not sure of herself, and her voice trembles a little. But she’s talking. I’m not sure what her first words would truly be, but most definitely something that touches Bruce. That move him. That make him realize how much he loves that kid.

7. Bruce taking Jason to a baseball game (pre-death Jason) for his birthday because that’s what the kid wanted as à gift. And then later, them going to a game once again after their reconciliation. A very big parallel between the two scènes ya know, as Bruce reminisces. Both end up with Jason hugging Bruce because his favorite team won. In the first scene it’s little 8/9 years old Jay excited and is all cute. In the post-death scene, it’s a grown up Jason who had been angry at Bruce for so long and finally forgave him, and who hugs Bruce without even realizing he does it, because he’s just happy...And it ends on Bruce’s face smiling like, he finally got his boy back.

8. Tim and Damian bonding. I hate it when they're only represented as hating each others 24/7. They had à rough start, sure. But they grew à lot... I just wish we could see them more actually learning to be brothers, accepting each others etc etc. Now of course they'd bicker. Like any siblings. But I bet they'd have à lot of common intérests and such. That they'd like to tease each others, but would genuinely like hanging out and all.

Also Tim is à very understanding sweet person, hé might be annoyed with Damian at first... But he would be amongst those who get it, ya know ? Who gives him time/à chance ? Like Bruce at first did everything wrong with Damian. He was harsh and violent and used intimidation (things Damian was too used to...) thinking he needed that to get Damian to lose his old ways (until he realized how wrong he was and apologzed and took à gentler way...ah that was good shit right there, Bruce acknowledging it all and trying to be better... Not like this current canon Bruce who's an asshole and never suffers any conséquences of it...). Well I think Tim would be more understanding and realize... Damian is just à kid. And Tim is à big brother now ? His older siblings were there for him, it's time for him to be there too. Know what I mean ? So yeah. I wish we'd have more of them actually being brothers and bonding.

Same for Dick and Jason. I wish we had more of them together before Jason's death, and after too... They've been brothers for à long time, their relationship from start to Jay's death to him coming back... Is so interesting. Also, same goes for Cassandra and any of them.

9. Tim getting genuinely interested about Wayne Enterprise, and going to work with Bruce. Asking à million questions and mimicking à lot of B's mannerisms. Dick never showed much intérest in the company, and Jason could've been à great "heir " to it all had he not die and all... I don't think neither Damian nor Cass would care much. But Tim ? First canonically he is interested. But even so, he's just that "type" of kid ya know ? I bet he'd be very excited about the charity side of it all, and find novel ways to to make the world a better place. After all Tim is thé only one of the Robins to not have à tragic background (at least at first, after je was also hit with loss and pain... ) when he first became Robin, and who helped Batman and all completely selflessly. Because it was the right thing to do, and for no other tragic reasons.

10. Damian learning/enjoying really normal basic things gives me life ? Like the boy grew up in such à specific environment, there's so many things he must've missed...Disney movies marathon, vidéo games, just having fun without any other purpose than to have fun (no training), knowing what it is to feel safe and warm... You know. I wish we'd just see Damian understanding and learning things he was just never given, that are just... Nice. Of course being Batman's son means his life can never be completely normal (and I'm not sure he could fully adapt to à normal life... People always seem to forgét the deep traumas he went through during his childhood, which is why he was how Hé was at first...aaaah Damian came à long way), but you know, hé can still expérience so many new things, with his siblings and all ? With his father who tries really hard ? With Alfred ? Just. Seeing truly Damian have that character development without backtracking on it all the time (you know how in canon stories he's à total brat, then gets better, then back to à friendless brat who hates everyone and so on and s forth :/). Seeing him wanting to become better, and actually having à nice évolution.

_____________________

When I'm sad, I like to headcanon scènes about the Batfam, stuffs I wish we could see etc etc haha. Here's just à few I thought about today. I just.. Love them so much, love to share my love for them, and néed to escape current canon a lot haha. Anyway. Here we are.

PS : Sorry for any typo, I wrote this on my phone, and since I'm French, the autoccorect is changing almost every English words to French ones and I might've missed à few mistakes it made ( which drives me crazy haha. And is why I only put 10 "scènes" and not more... Ah, for another post ?).

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bigskydreaming · 4 years

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I will forever squint suspiciously at a fandom that overall makes a bigger deal out of Dick Grayson expressing he didn’t want to replace his father when he was still young and actively grieving than they do Tim Drake literally hiring an actor to be his fake uncle and saying no to Bruce’s first actual offer of adoption.

Like, if you can get on board with Timothy Drake-Wayne after that, because Tim changed his mind after he was further along in his grieving process, you can get on board with the idea that at some point after the age of ten or twelve Dick similarly changed his mind about thinking a second father would be an insult to his first father’s memory.

*Shrugs* I just don’t get how hard some people go to bat for the idea that Dick never wanted or needed someone he viewed as an actual parent at any point after he was eight. Because you can’t deny that whatever Dick has said about that in the comics, he’s NEVER made it nearly AS big a deal as most fans who cite it at all do. Like, when you run with the most extreme extrapolation of that but gloss right over Tim’s far more extensive efforts to keep Jack Drake the sole father figure in his memory at first, I feel like something else is going on there.

(And I’m not trying to turn this into a Tim vs Dick thing, btw, I’m honestly just using Tim’s story there as a benchmark for how a clearly parallel sentiment is overwhelmingly referenced in regards to just one character but not another. My issues with the way people engage with this particular idea in regards to Dick like, exists without Tim being in the equation at all. That was simply an example of the fact that there IS a discrepancy.)

But point being, as all roads in this particular direction of thought almost always seem to lead to Dick being slotted into some nebulous category separating him from the rest of his siblings, where he’s only partially Bruce’s kid but not FULLY, not like the others....I am the Wary.

Because whatever the surface intentions behind that, it almost inevitably voids some of Bruce’s responsibility to him as a parent, while at the same time making it easier to heap parental or caregiver style responsibilities for the others on Dick. If Dick’s more like Bruce than he is like his siblings in the overall family dynamic, this not only lessens the need to show him on the receiving end of Bruce being a parental figure, it simultaneously heightens the urge to make him a parental figure to the others to pick up Bruce’s slack there, because they’re more partners than they are father and son, see. So why wouldn’t Dick pick up Bruce’s slack and help him out there, and why would he need Bruce to actually be fulfilling that very role with him instead?

All the things people are critical of Bruce for in his parenting with Dick aren’t quite as bad, right, when Dick’s not fully his son or doesn’t quite view Bruce as his father....its easier to reframe it as fights between colleagues. Or recast Dick’s estrangement from Bruce as not actually a failure on Bruce’s part to reach out and cement exactly what Dick meant to him every time Dick flat out says “I want to know what I mean to you, give a name to it, give me an explanation for why you made these choices that isn’t that you don’t want me because all I see when I look at those choices is you expressing you don’t want me.”

Because if Dick doesn’t actually want that explanation ever, if Dick doesn’t actually want that rock-solid expression of Bruce putting a name to what he feels for Dick and what he views him as, then the arguments between Bruce and Dick in his late teenage years DO become two-sided. Its just them butting heads back then. Rather than what they actually WERE in the comics, which was Dick clearly expressing insecurities about his place in Bruce’s life and Bruce repeatedly letting him leave or outright telling him to leave without actually giving it to him.

(I’m not even talking about NTT #55 for once, I’m actually talking about when Dick went to Gotham after he found out about Jason being Robin now. And as the events of that issue get referenced a TON in fandom, its HIGHLY suspect that one specific part of that issue gets rewritten in particular: where its acted like it was Dick that stormed off in a huff there or Dick who didn’t want anything more than to confront Bruce about Robin. It really doesn’t get addressed enough IMO that yes, Bruce said outright that he did it because he missed Dick....and then two panels later, Bruce literally asks Dick to go now. Says I would like you to leave now. Bruce is the one who blew up and lost his temper, literally smashing something while Dick was just heated because he was understandably upset, while Bruce somehow made it like he was the one being hurt by Dick and asking for space from him. Yeah, he said I miss you, but he never DID anything with that and in fact just turned around two seconds later and drove Dick away again, like Holy Mixed Signals, Batman! Y’know? Like what exactly was Dick supposed to do with that? “Oh, so Bruce misses me, but also he didn’t want me there, like I was literally RIGHT THERE for the first time in seventeen months and he missed me so much that....he didn’t even ask me to stay for dinner? Or call or reach out to me afterwards? So....my conclusion is.....what, exactly?”)

Ultimately though, my big beef with the stuff about adoption or Dick not wanting to replace his father, its not even about those specifically. Its about that period when Bruce very visibly was NOT in Dick’s life....and that was BY BRUCE’S CHOICE. That is the thing that needs addressing in my book, and far too often goes unresolved. No matter what the particulars of Dick’s views or wants re: adoption, there is literally no confusion about the existence of comics where Dick is repeatedly the one to reach out to Bruce, at a point in his life where he no longer had any legal ties to Bruce whatsoever.....and clearly express in one way or another that he is there and willing to talk, that in fact he WANTS to talk about why Bruce doesn’t seem to want HIM, specifically.

It was Dick who brought up the issue of Bruce adopting Jason but not him and asked WHY at that one issue with them at a party. It was Dick who returned to Gotham and asked Bruce WHY he made Jason Robin when he hadn’t wanted Dick to be Robin - (and for the record, NO version of events where Bruce is the one to make Jason Robin aligns with Dick voluntarily giving up Robin.....the one and only continuity in which Dick did that, HE made the choice to pass Robin on to Jason. Mixing and matching continuities specifically to make Dick unable to claim hurt or resentment for the identity he crafted for himself being given away to someone else without his approval because ‘he was the one who said he didn’t want it anymore’ is yet again, suspect, as it serves absolutely no purpose other than to lessen the hurt done to him and abdicate Bruce’s culpability in hurting him when he did that).

It was Dick who returned to Gotham after Jason died with no intention but to express his condolences and share their grief, and it was Dick who returned to Gotham to check on Bruce after Tim said he was worried he was going to get himself killed, as well as again more longterm in order to help with Tim’s training.

And in each and EVERY one of those situations.....it was Bruce that ended those encounters, and ALWAYS without ever offering Dick any actual resolution or change in their dynamic. Despite Dick’s very presence in each of these being a very clear sign that Dick was unhappy with their estrangement and wanted a change to it or else he wouldn’t even be there, he would be off being comfortably estranged somewhere else and totally content with that.

THAT’S the bigger issue and always has been, I think. That no matter how else you parse it, Dick repeatedly looked for and asked for reassurances, some kind of actual TIES to Bruce, and that Bruce for whatever personal reasons of his own, repeatedly did not give....even when Dick walked him right up to the perfect opportunity to just fucking say “I would like you to come home more, I want you here, I want you as part of my family even though you’ve already aged out of our existing legal bond.”

Bruce still just WOULD NOT SAY IT. Dick was very clear about needing and wanting something from Bruce that Bruce DID NOT GIVE HIM. Bruce gave him basically nothing to work with in these encounters more often than not.

(In the interest of not being disingenuous here, I do admit that at the party when Dick asked Bruce why he’d adopted Jason and not him, Bruce did give a fairly touching response about how by the time he thought Dick would be open to it, he thought that Dick was too old to actually want or need it anymore. BUT, problem is, even with that it does absolutely nothing to change or address how the very fact that Dick was expressing insecurity about this now meant that Dick WASN’T actually too old to want or need it. It was literally a smack in the face that Bruce’s conclusion was wrong and not actually about Dick’s wants. And Bruce knew this, even referenced it at later points when he threw it back in Dick’s face to accuse Dick of resenting Bruce adopting Jason and not him.....which is a clear indication that Bruce knew it was something Dick still wanted or else there would be no reason for resentment, and THAT is the issue there. That no matter what Bruce said at that party about his reasons for not adopting Dick sooner, that very conversation itself should have been reason enough for Bruce to rethink his stance then there....but he didn’t. Also he ended up adopting Dick like five years later soooooo.....if he could do it then when Dick was even older, that doesn’t work as a barrier for him not doing it then.)

And that’s the troubling part.....how many people try and make that period of their lives unclear with no other visible purpose than to make the fact that Bruce WOULD NOT OUTRIGHT CEMENT DICK AS FAMILY OR ASK HIM TO STAY, like.....less problematic.

And as I’ve said before and will no doubt say again.......that logic process bugs the hell out of me, because it ultimately tries to claim the responsibility for Dick’s unhappiness in this regard back then is at least as much his fault as Bruce’s. That it was some kind of fight between equals, or that it was something Dick initiated or that Bruce had no power to resolve on his own via just his own choices or gestures.

Because it wasn’t! That’s not remotely what all of that was! And like I’m also always saying, you don’t HAVE to stick with the canon by any means. You can literally rewrite things so Bruce adopts Dick before he’s eighteen and they never HAVE that period, you can rewrite things so that Bruce reaches out and ends that period early on by DOING THE WORK of being the parent in that situation, you can ‘fix that’ by any number of means......yet over and over we see that period of estrangement repeatedly upheld as a thing that exists in the history that fics and headcanons reference having happened......but with the only ACTUAL change from the comics being that its framed as though it was just growing pains or Dick being stubborn or a dozen other things that somehow keep coming back to Dick doing something wrong there instead of repeatedly standing in front of Bruce asking for him to clarify their relationship and Bruce changing the subject or asking him to leave.

Again. THAT’S the problem.

You want Good Parent Bruce Wayne? Then WRITE Good Parent Bruce Wayne. Don’t just write Stubborn Teenaged Asshole Dick Grayson who btw doesn’t even really want Bruce to be his parent so there’s absolutely nothing Bruce could have done to bridge that gap back then anyway.

(As that’s an equally critical part of the equation here as well. See, since Dick DID clearly express a want for a clear connection to Bruce back then, acting like Dick never really wanted a second father is a super convenient way to write over the part where Dick spelled out for Bruce how to bridge the divide between them and make things good again.....by demonstrating an actual WANT to have Dick in his family!)

But writing Stubborn Teenage Asshole Dick Grayson Who Did This To Himself.....that is something entirely different from writing Good Parent Bruce Wayne. You haven’t actually done or said anything with BRUCE’S character by just making Dick the fall guy for every conflict between them as though they were just equals all along and there was never any kind of actual parent child relationship or even a DESIRE for there to be a parent child relationship. Where the responsibility for being the PARENT like, lands on the....y’know. Parent.

And for the record, I don’t think this issue is confined just to this period of the comics, I think rather that its kinda the point of origin of a very large recurring problem in Dick’s conflicts with other people.

Because like I said, it was abundantly clear that Dick was expressing a want to be acknowledged as family, or just flat out acknowledged by Bruce at all, during this time. And if people can somehow make THAT period into just his fault.....then of course it should be no surprise that they can make any conflict he’s part of into his fault. Its a freaking blueprint for doing just that!

And that’s exactly why this pattern recurs so damn often with EXACTLY the same fanon beats......whatever role the other character plays even in initiating a conflict is shifted onto Dick and somehow made into his own proactive choice and not something he’s actually reacting to. Thus Dick does double duty as both the CAUSE of the conflict and the resulting EFFECT - aka how he reacted to that thing that originally, he did not actually cause or initiate. While meanwhile, the other character not only gets off scot free bearing no actual culpability....no, now since DICK is the one making all the actual choices in the conflict from start to finish, now the other character is actually his VICTIM in it as well.

And that’s just.....so....blegh.

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bigskydreaming · 3 years

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Doing some writing today off and on between errands and work, and jumping around various Kings of the Sky installments, specifically Dick, Jason and Cass stuff, so probably gonna post snippets from a bunch of them as I go.

(Kings of the Sky is an AU that goes canon divergent from the point of Jason calling Dick for advice for dealing with Bruce after the Garzonas case and where things end up going dramatically different from that point on. Including Jason not dying, being part of his own lineup of Titans between Dick and Tim’s, Dick being adopted not long after the Church of Blood incident, Cass being the third Wayne kid to be taken in and adopted and with Tim and Duke being next and then Damian coming along later once they find out about him. This is basically my ‘the family’s alright’ AU with largely ‘Good Dad Bruce’ except for Dick and then Jason yelling some sense into him about the other, respectively, in the first two installments, just FYI).

Anyway, this bit is from a story called “In Their Shadows Grow Trees Of Good and Evil,” set about a year after Cass has been adopted, when she and Jason are both sixteen and Dick’s twenty-one. Also just FYI, because canon has never been specific about what ways Cass is neurodivergent due to the comic-book style ‘rewiring’ of her brain so that she could learn to speak later in life, I tend to go with her being dyslexic and having aphasia. She sticks exclusively to sign language and being a silent presence in her costumed personas, so that there’s no chance of people connecting the dots between Black Bat and Cassandra Wayne, as she mostly speaks verbally in her civilian persona and doesn’t hide her aphasia. The reason there’s not likely to be any obvious signs of aphasia in the snippets of her I post is because I wait until I complete something to choose words at random to replace with aphasia-born mixups, so its more realistic and I’m not gearing her dialogue towards deliberately placed moments. Just in case you were wondering.

In Their Shadows Grow Trees of Good and Evil

“Hey Todd,” sneered an exquisitely obnoxious voice. “Why’s your sister so fucking weird?”

Jason sighed the sigh of a soul a mere century into its eternity of damnation as he rose from the lunch table he’d been studying at and crammed the rest of his books into his backpack. Then he pasted a cheerfully bland smile on his face and turned around, geared for academia warfare (teenage prep school edition).

“Hey Craig,” he said brightly. “Why’d you come out of the womb so ugly your parents had to tie a piece of steak around your neck just to get the family dog to go near you? Mysteries abound.”

The advancing junior slowed a step, momentarily rocked by his truly impressive return volley. The grimace Craig’s already gargoyle-esque features twisted into made his face even more unpleasant to look at than usual, which was quite the feat. Jason would have applauded if just looking at it hadn’t already turned him to stone.

But the bargain basement basilisk kept on towards him rather than turn tail and skulk off to pop his emotional blisters, so Jason sighed a sequel to his first one. Looked like it was one of those days where Craig felt up to powering through. Guess someone had eaten their self-esteem Wheaties that morning. Joy.

“You think you’re pretty hot shit, don’t you, Todd?”

Jason shrugged. “I mean, to be honest I kinda have a one track mind, so right now I’m mostly just thinking about punching you in your mistake.”

“My what?”

“Your face,” Jason elaborated with exaggerated patience.

“Huh?”

“Oh my god, I’m saying your face is a mistake. See, its not as fun when I have to stop and explain it to you. Ugh, you ruin everything.”

He neatly sidestepped the older boy as R2-Dumbass stayed frozen, smoke coming off of his internal CPU while trying to catch up. For a second Jason thought he was home free, but then he remembered the universe fucking hated him so haha, sucks to suck. Also, a small crowd had gathered to witness the verbal jousting match, and nothing invigorated an asshole like Craig more than an audience of like-minded peers. So there was that too.

“Whatever. Laugh it up all you want, you little shit,” the junior rallied. “But just remember, mocking your betters will never change the fact that you were born street trash and you’ll be street trash until the day you die.”

Honestly? Not his best effort. Jason almost felt bad using any of his good material. Seemed like overkill at this point. But he did have a strict Scorched Earth policy to maintain, so.....

“Yeah but my dad could buy out and ruin your dad so that means I still win, right?”

He smirked as the barb landed and Craig’s face set into a sunset vista of strangled purple and furious red. Bam. Direct hit.

“Listen, you - “

“Oh for fuck’s sake, it was rhetorical,” Jason interrupted. “I don’t actually care what you think even a little bit. Nobody does. You don’t matter. Please go be irrelevant elsewhere, you’re fucking dismissed, you loser.”

“Speak for yourself, charity case.” Oh goodie, Craig’s backup singers had finally arrived. Now if only he could remember to care enough to learn their names in the first place. Seriously, who told the extras they could have lines? “All the jokes in the world can’t change who and what you are.”

Jason shrugged and continued nonchalantly up the hill to where his sister was standing with arms crossed, staring down at something on the other side.

“True genius is never appreciated in its own time,” he tossed back over his shoulder. “I’m sure I’ll be immortalized in song eventually.”

The mob of morons deigned to let him go without further incident. Though he suspected that had less to do with his scathing wit and more to do with him being headed towards Cass. She was immaculately presented as always, wearing the Gotham Academy uniform like she was born to it despite hating its uncomfortable stiffness every bit as much as he did. But that was just Cass for you.

For all that she still struggled at times to engage verbally or speak up in social settings, her mastery of body language remained without peer. She could chameleon-camouflage her way into matching poise and posture with anyone - a skill that had allowed her to walk into school on her very first day with her head held high as though she owned everything in her sight. Exuding so much Queen Bee Intimidation Factor even the other hive queens were afraid to approach her themselves. Sending forth their drones to try and woo her into an alliance, only to see her remain oh-so-casually above it all, a slightly contemptuous smile adorning her lips.

Basically, she scared the shit out of their classmates without them having anywhere close to a true understanding of why, and Jason was outrageously jealous. Rude. Unfair. Why did his siblings always get all the cool toys when all he had was his rakish charm, scintillating intellect and debonair.....nah, who was he kidding. He was fucking awesome.

“Sup, sis,” he said, cresting the hill to stand beside Cass. “Just FYI, I just took a popularity bullet for you, which means you owe me your dessert tonight. Its a family rule that’s totally a real thing and definitely not something I just made up right now because Alf is making chocolate soufflé.”

She made no acknowledgment and remained stock still, a Colossus at Rhodes peering down into the shifting shadows of the parking lot below.

He peered down as well, though with absolutely no idea what they were looking at. Solidarity, yo.

“So are we staring fixedly at anything in particular, or should I just pick my own spot and commit?”

His humor was totally wasted on her as always. Instead of laughing and telling him what a lovable goof he was, she just inclined her head in the direction of a blonde girl where she was standing next to the driver’s side door of a Mercedes-Benz, dictating final commandments to her peons before departing. Well, probably. Jason was just guessing, based on his own body language reads, and like, general disdain for literally everyone at this school that wasn’t related to him.

He made a face. An extra special one reserved just for this classmate in particular. “Ugh, Madison Dunleavy? She’s the worst.”

Cass raised a cool eyebrow. “I thought Craig Hendricks was the worst.”

“He is. They’re both the worst. Its a hotly contested position here at Gotham Academy.”

She rolled her eyes and nodded back down at the Queen of Air and Darkness. “So. You know her?”

“Nope,” Jason said. “Come to think of it, I’ve actually never seen her in my life. No idea who that is. Can’t help you, sorry. Shall we go home?”

The Eyebrow of Inquisition speared him with clear intent. Who the fuck needed words when you could pack the Encyclopedia Britannica into a single facial expression?

Jason sighed gustily.

“I had a slight altercation with her freshman year that led to her declaring her undying enmity for me until the end of time. The word nemesis may or may not have been thrown around once or twice. I can’t recall.”

The Eyebrow of Inquisition lowered nary an inch. Ugh, she wanted more? Why did everyone in his family hate privacy, with the obvious exclusion of himself when snooping through Cass and Dick’s rooms for blackmail material, which was actually intel-gathering and thus another matter entirely.

“Okay so basically what happened was my first week here I overheard her talking shit about me and not even twenty minutes later she was pretending to kiss my ass in homeroom, like probably because of Bruce, y’know? So I just busted out laughing and told her to fuck off and die and she has inexplicably loathed me ever since.”

Avoiding further Eyebrow Inquisition-ing, he made a show of peering around aimlessly. When the silence extended and it was clear Cass was absolutely not going to break first, Jason waved a hand in dismissal and took to peering oh so casually at his fingernails. "I suppose I was less tactful back in those days.”

He chanced a look up, finally, and saw his sister’s eyebrow had somehow managed to mighty morphin power ranger its way into a configuration evoking both judgment and disbelief, with the latter perhaps aimed at the idea he was significantly differing in the tact department these days either.

“I don’t love the implications your face is making right now,” he told her.

She ignored him, because of course she did.

“Does she know Dick?” She asked instead. Jason shrugged.

“I mean, maybe? She’s probably seen him around at one of those stupid galas we have to go to, and actually I think maybe she has an older brother who was either in Dick’s grade or like, one above or below it? I don’t know.”

Now both eyebrows were doing the dance of disbelief. Okay, so maybe that was poor situational awareness on his part, since it wasn’t like Gotham Academy was a big school with a ton of other kids and also he’d only been in the same class as Madison for like over two whole years, but whatever. There were extingent circumstances.

“Look, she’s a total snob who’s always looked down on me and in return I willfully ignore both her existence and that of everyone and everything even tangentially related to her. Its called equality, Cass.”

She pursed her lips and went back to the peering, because of course in the mind of Cass it made total sense that the Grand Inquisition didn’t need to be followed up by any explanation on her part, what the hell. Like was he supposed to have inferred it?

“What’s this all about anyway?”

“I heard her talking about Dick earlier,” she said without peeling her eyes away from her personal recon mission. “I don’t know what she said though, I just heard her say Grayson, and then I was busy looking at what her body was saying. I know it was about Dick because she shut down when she saw me. And I didn’t like the way she....looked....before that happened. The way she was talking. It was.....”

Jason frowned but held back any follow-up questions while he waited - with total patience because he wasn’t an absolute cad, thank you very much - for his sister to find the word she was hunting for. It was a major source of frustration for her, that whatever neural map her brain followed put body language and spoken language in totally different regions of her brain, separated by a fairly great divide. Meaning she usually had to make a conscious choice to focus on body language or conventional languages - whether verbal or sign. But it tended to be one or the other; she’d yet to master taking in and comprehending both forms of ‘language’ at the same time. And none of them had quite figured out how to convince her that she wasn’t actually missing anything when she chose to focus on one specific form of communication - that she was still observing far more than most people ever would.

“Proprietary,” Cass settled on at last. She nodded her satisfaction with her choice of word, and Jason waited a whole two point five seconds before sticking his whole foot in his mouth.

“Proprietary?” He asked with a scrunched nose as he weighed that for possible context and implications. “You sure?”

She glared. He winced. It was a whole thing.

“Yeah, I know, sorry, sorry, I heard it the second it was out of my mouth. We don’t actually have to experiment with the legitimacy of if looks could kill.”

Cass rolled her eyes, but eh. That could’ve gone worse.

Jason swiftly redirected attention anyway. Discretion is the better part of valor, after all.

“So. The Queen of Air and Darkness was talking about our big bro, and her mood was.....proprietary, huh?” He recapped while digesting the info like a boss. “Well. Definitely not loving that, I gotta say. Hold please.”

Pulling out his phone and pulling up his most recent texts, he began typing furiously.

“What are you doing?” Cass asked.

“Texting Tom,” he replied, because duh. Hah, now it was his chance to have the answers that should be patently obvious and thus make with the ‘are you kidding me’ when she asked obvious questions she should know the answer to! How do you like them apples, sis?

“Why are you texting your boyfriend right now?”

Jason rolled his eyes, because fair is fair, but never ceased texting for a moment. Time was of the essence here, probably. Well, maybe. Okay probably not. But it’d still been like half an hour since he and Tom had last texted and that’s a very fucking long time in teenage years.

“To be our getaway driver tonight, obviously.”

She stared at him. He didn’t look up, but he could feel it anyway. He was very intuitive like that.

“What?”

Jason heaved another sigh, one keyed to tones of ‘oh my god, do I really have to spell this out,” exasperation. He was just racking up the bonus points here. It was really too bad this wasn’t an actual competition he could actually win and this was all just pettiness taking place wholly in his own head. Lame.

“Well, clearly we now have to go snoop in Madison’s house aka lair to see if its actually a house or a full on lair. Because she’s either a creeper or like, legit evil, and its important to know which one before we proceed, because obviously we can only bust her for being a weird creeper about our brother as Jason and Cass, whereas if she’s legit evil, that’s gotta go down as Robin and Black Bat. I’ll handle the snooping, you’ll take look-out, but we still need a wheelman and that’s why I’m texting Tom. This is all very mission-oriented, okay. I’m a professional.”

“Right,” she affirmed, while sounding anything but convinced. “Why don’t we just tell Bruce?”

Without looking up or breaking stride, he said: “I’m going to give you til I finish typing this sentence to figure out what was wrong with what you just said. Remember that we are talking about hypothetical danger to our brother, and also Bruce’s idea of a proportionate response to any of his children being in even hypothetical danger. And also our brother’s idea of a proportionate response to Bruce’s idea of a proportionate response. Look, you’re still new so I’m gonna need you to just trust me on this one. Its gonna be a no on telling Bruce without further intel.”

Cass said nothing in response to that, which meant that she was conceding the point and recognized the wisdom of his words. Or maybe that she was just gonna go ahead and do what she wanted anyway and just wasn’t bothering to fight about it, but it was probably that first thing.

“Well you better not just make out with your boyfriend all night,” is what she said at last, and that got his attention reeeeeal quick like.

“Umm. Wow. Okay. So, first off, you’re not the boss of me and who I make out with and when, so jot that down. And second, now I’m definitely going to make out with my boyfriend extra hard, with the exception of when we are actually on our recon mission because as previously established, I am a professional. And also, again, you’re not the boss of me.”

Jason ignored her Eye Roll With Extra Emphasis, and instead just held up his phone to Text With Extra Emphasis, as he read along with what he was typing.

“By the way babe, we have to make out extra hard tonight,” he said, tongue sticking out of the corner of his mouth while he dragged out his dictation with the kind of focus that usually led to Bruce asking why he couldn’t apply as much intensity to training as he did to pettiness. “Cass has suddenly decided she can dictate terms to me and I need to shut that shit down ASAP, so thank you in advance for your assistance in this matter. Smoochies and other gay stuff to the best boyfriend ever.”

Jason frowned as a response pinged back seconds later.

TheCatsMeow: ....the things I put up with for the sake of your weird family dynamics.

TheOnlyRobinThatRocks: Yeah, yeah. You’re a saint among were-panthers. Must you mock? Why can’t you just tell me I’m pretty instead?

TheCatsMeow: Sorry. Let me try again. OMG you’re so pretty Jase how did I get so lucky xoxo.

TheOnlyRobinThatRocks: No. Its too late. It feels forced and unbelievable now. You’ve ruined it forever.

TheCatsMeow: Got it. From now on I will only tell you that you’re repulsive and hideous.

TheOnlyRobinThatRocks: I’m breaking up with you.

TheCatsMeow: But after I help you with your mission tonight.

TheOnlyRobinThatRocks: Obvsly. I’m a professional. Why do people keep forgetting this?

TheCatsMeow: And also the making out to spite your sister.

TheOnlyRobinThatRocks: Yeah we should do that first too. I mean we already penciled it in.

55 notes · View notes

bigskydreaming · 4 years

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Alright a noob's question to a veteran fan, when do you think the blatant hatred for Dick started? I've heard from old, 50+ years old fans that he was the best, he was badass, better than Batman A lister. What changed? I know DC can't stand their legacy characters and they've always put abuse in their books, but I want to know about the fandom. When I joined I fell for the Tim Drake Best but Underrated Robin thing until I realized that was polar opposite of the truth. When did That start?

Okay, well it took me forever to get back to this ask and finish like I promised, but I kept my promise, huzzah! Long as fuck theorizing on this topic below:

So here’s the thing. I’ve been fucking around fandoms since the 90s, and I can 100% confirm that Everyone Hates Dick Grayson absolutely was not always a thing. Its a large part of WHY I’m so convinced that modern fandom is just fucking WEIRD about him, because like....I actively have something else to compare it to. I can absolutely remember what Bat fandom was like in regards to him back in the days of the Bludhaven yahoo group and squidge.org and other random URLs that mean absolutely nothing to 99% of you, lolol.

Like, there is very much, distinctly, DEFINITIVELY, a difference in how the majority of fandom views him and interacts with his character now, as opposed to like.....the first decade or so I was in fandoms.

And if I had to trace it back to a specific time period where there was like...an actual, visible sea change....the only thing I can come up with is around the Battle for the Cowl era, the start of the Morrison/Dickbats run. Not so coincidentally, this was the precise time I moved away from Batfam fandom after having pretty consistently being in it for a good ten years by then, BECAUSE there very clearly IMO was this change in how people were writing about Dick all of a sudden.

Like, there had been tensions building towards Dick’s character for awhile, probably ever since Jason’s return because like....in a sense, Dick’s too far removed from say, Tim, to be directly in competition with his character. What I mean is, there’s too little overlap in what people like about Tim and what people like about Dick for them to ever be like...a threat to each other’s fanbases in that respect, and push people to make a choice there. But with Dick and Jason, there’s enough overlap in them and what draws people to them - even just purely in terms of positioning within the Bat franchise, as an older Bat-sibling and former Robin that nevertheless is no longer Robin himself - that like....ever since Jason came back, you could start to see ‘fractures’ in how people viewed Dick. Because now there was another alternative to his character who occupied a similar......not sphere, but perhaps ‘level’ of the Batfamily franchise, and so people kinda started....picking sides, even though no actual sides had to be picked in the first place because its not actually a fucking competition.

And this isn’t to say the view of Dick in fandom and how he’s interacted with is the ‘fault’ of Jason’s return, not at all, just.....this is just me talking analytically, in terms of patterns and causality. Not trying to assign blame here, more just kinda explain the way it appeared to me anyway.

But then things all came to a head in the Battle for the Cowl era, and ignited stuff that had been lurking under the surface in SEVERAL different areas of fandom, and brought into direct conflict long-held assumptions and views and biases that had only never been in conflict before because they didn’t NEED to be in conflict before.

Basically, my Big Thesis about why fandom is the way it is about Dick, is that I feel its not so much that fans of other characters hate him, its that I think many of them RESENT him for very specific things and how those things like....make him a narrative obstacle to the kinds of stories they want to read and write about the Batfam specifically.

With the biggest examples here being Bruce fans, Jason fans and Tim fans.

See, my take is this:

1) I think a lot of Bruce fans resent Dick on some level because he’s actually the biggest obstacle standing in the way of the Bruce Wayne is a Good Parent view of things. As much as people have always liked to claim and take for granted that Dick is Bruce’s favorite or whatever, the truth is there is a far longer and far more VARIED history of Bruce and Dick being at odds than there is between Bruce and any other of his kids.

Essentially, in order to really sell Bruce as CONSISTENTLY being a good parent, regardless of what canon says or does at times.....DICK is the character you MOST have to rewrite or write around, change or ignore his stories, reframe his past interactions with Bruce in order to make this stick.

I know people are probably going “Umm what about Bruce and Jason though?” But the difference is, Bruce and Dick’s conflicts cover a lot more ground than Bruce and Jason’s. Its not that Bruce and Jason’s clashes aren’t epic and that Bruce’s behavior with Jason in stories like UTRH hasn’t been massively shitty....its that in terms of Bruce and Jason, these things are a lot more....confined, than they are with Bruce and Dick.

Basically, most of the major conflict between Bruce and Jason CAN be rewritten or avoided by simply addressing three or four definitive things: the Garzonas case and aftermath, Bruce’s actions/response in regards to the Joker killing Jason, Jason’s return and his wants and needs in regard to Bruce in UTRH, and Bruce’s view of Jason’s actions and ideology post his return.

None of these are small things by any means. But they are FINITE things. They’re concentrated into specific stories, specific areas of canon....and thus, more easily navigated around by anyone who wants to avoid engaging with these things in the form of Bruce being a shitty parent, and rewrite and reframe Bruce and Jason’s dynamic in the vein of Bruce is a Good Parent.

In contrast, with Dick and Bruce, to rewrite and reframe Bruce and Dick’s OVERALL dynamic in the vein of Bruce is a Good Parent......you’ve got a LOT more ground to cover.

There’s Bruce firing Dick as Robin, there’s Bruce not reaching out to Dick and being content to stay estranged from Dick for all the years they barely interacted, there’s the effect Bruce’s adopting Jason and making him Robin without a word to Dick in advance had on Dick, there’s Bruce still not using the conflict between them over that to make changes in how he interacted with Dick like say adopting him now, there’s Bruce’s actions and behavior towards Dick in the aftermath of Jason’s death, there’s Bruce’s inconsistent appearances in Dick’s stories in all the many times Dick very much needs help or comfort juxtaposed with Dick’s consistent appearances in Bruce’s stories any time he so much as calls him and asks him to show up due to the fact that canon writers can consistently be counted on to prioritize Bruce’s needs as more pressing than Dick’s needs, narratively speaking. There’s Bruce’s clear judgment of Dick in Last Laugh and failure to reach out and help Dick through its aftermath. There’s Bruce’s non-involvement in the extended greatest hits album that is one of the lowest periods of Dick’s life, encompassing Blockbuster, Tarantula and the destruction of Bludhaven, and Bruce’s non-helpful ‘fix’ in the wake of all that, which can be summed up as him yelling “suck it up, buddy.” And in the New 52 you’ve got Bruce’s shitty handling of the Court of Owls revelations and his treating the effect of these revelations on Dick as a total non-issue, there’s the aftermath of Forever Evil, there’s Bruce’s failure to say anything about why Dick went to Spyral even after seeing the effect it had on Dick’s relationships with the rest of his family, there’s the absolute disaster that was his handling of the Ric Grayson situation.....

See what I’m saying? Its not that Bruce doesn’t have plenty of fodder for being a shitty parent in stories with Jason, its just that the times and the ways he is are more isolated and contained, relatively speaking....thus more easily ‘treated’ by anyone who wants to FIX those parts of canon in order to realign it all in the framework of Bruce Wayne Is A Good Parent.

Its nowhere NEAR as easy to do that with Dick when you ACTUALLY engage with the full extent of how shittily Bruce has been written interacting with his eldest over the course of decades....

And so for fans of Bruce who very much WANT Bruce to be a good parent, that’s what they want to read, that’s what they want to write, that’s what they’re HERE for and stuff OUTSIDE that is stuff they (understandably) do not want to engage with....

This makes Dick actively an OBSTACLE to all of that. It makes him a Problem. Dick and his stories and his dynamics with Bruce, in order to truly align with Bruce Wayne is a Good Parent, have to EXTENSIVELY be tackled and rewritten and reframed, and this is no easy feat or no small process.

And for fans of Bruce who are here for BRUCE first and foremost, not Dick, and who thus don’t want to and aren’t thrilled to be confronted with a need to PRIORITIZE him and his stories to such a large degree in order to ACTUALLY ‘fix’ canon - which for the record has nothing to do with Dick being more important of a character or anything to do with character preferences whatsoever, but rather is simply symptomatic of the ROLE Dick occupies in Bruce’s life, and is an extension of the fact that in any scenario in which Bruce Wayne Is A Good Parent, Dick, as his son, logically MUST be as much a priority at least some of the time as any other of his kids because THAT’S WHAT A GOOD PARENT DOES, HE MAKES HIS KIDS A PRIORITY.....

Like, its honestly understandable (even if thanks, I hate it) that people who really just WANT to focus on Bruce and his Good Parent-ness and don’t want to be forced into HAVING to make Dick and fixing or rewriting how Bruce has screwed up with him into a priority when writing fic that ultimately, for these fans, is still supposed to be ABOUT Bruce.....like, its not exactly rocket science, grasping how this could easily lead to people being even less keen on the guy, because he complicates so many stories they want to write without remotely being one of the characters they’re inspired to write in the first place.

So I mean, yeah. Dick very much became an object of resentment for a lot of Bruce fans, I think, for that reason specifically, and for the narrative obstacle he innately presents to anyone who just wants to write Good Parent Bruce and doesn’t want to have to write Bruce Actively Fixing His Mistakes With Dick in order to do so.

And again, this is pretty much JUST Dick in this particular role (especially as of the time I’m talking about) because much like how even though Bruce has his fuck-ups with Jason, they’re more finitely contained to specific narratives and TYPES of narratives....the same is true of Bruce’s interactions with his other kids. Yeah, he has his fuck-ups with them too, but again, they’re more isolated, more traceable back to singular sources and stories that are a lot more easily sidestepped and navigated around by anyone who just does not want to engage with Bruce Being a Bad Parent and the EFFECTS this has had on various of his kids throughout their stories as a result.

So you have this thing, about Dick, narratively speaking, not even a matter of character like or dislike. And its been there all along, slowly building story by story....

With it all coming to a head, I feel, in the Battle for the Cowl era, where Bruce is shuffled off-stage for a time, and REPLACED by Dick as Batman.....while at the same time Dick is cast in the same role of surrogate father figure to newcomer Damian, that Bruce was cast in with Dick when he and Dick were of similar ages to Dick and Damian now.

And Bruce was absolutely celebrated for how good he was with Dick back then - and with reason - BUT, I think this period with Dick and Damian, and the stories it told, brought front and center the fact and the awareness that it’d been a LONG TIME since Bruce was so uncritically celebrated for being a Good Parent, and with Dick specifically. And then additionally it made and kept front and center at this exact same time....people celebrating Dick for being a Good Parent (in essence) in much the way that they HADN’T celebrated Bruce for quite some time. And add to that the fact that Dick was doing this WHILE in the role of Batman himself, the same role Bruce had occupied in the parallel situation....so it made all this into a parallel that couldn’t easily be dismissed or discounted by saying things like “well Dick didn’t have the pressures of being Batman to deal with, being a good parent throughout all of this and STAYING that way would have been innately easier because of that.”

And thus....long-simmering resentment of the obstacle alleged favorite son Dick poses to actually writing Bruce Is A Good Parent content without significant revision or ommissions....ignited. With kinda the insult added to injury that now Dick was getting the same kind of praise and attention that these particular fans came to the franchise to see BRUCE be the focus and recipient of, not Dick.

2) At the same time, you have another large segment of fandom by this point, Jason’s fans. Or to be more accurate, you have a select but EXTREMELY vocal subset of Jason’s fans.....

Who come to Jason’s fandom with a very specific angle: they LIKE Jason as the misunderstood outcast of the Batfam, the black sheep alone and apart from the rest of the family who Just Don’t Get Him And Never Will, thus making him eternally sympathetic in this specific regard. But with that specific regard, in order to STAY eternal…..requiring that….nobody in the family gets him or cares or ever has really.

Thus once again, Dick just by the existence of him and his actual past dynamics with Jason, is a narrative obstacle to writing THIS specific narrative.

And so of course it had to be reframed and EMPHASIZED that Dick had always been a jerk to Jason, barely a brother, heck they barely even knew each other apparently - even when Jason came back and one of his first interactions with Dick post-Return was to clearly express that he’d always seen Dick as family, which very much does not mesh the idea that Jason and Dick barely knew each other or barely ever interacted before Jason died.

It also, of course, does not mesh with the idea that there’s nobody in the Batfamily who understands Jason, or is capable of seeing things his way instead of Bruce’s, or who cares enough to avenge him……because Last Laugh very much DOES exist, and puts the lie to all of that. Dick’s not only killed at least once (actually more than just once) and still remained fundamentally the same Dick Grayson he’s always been, but on top of that, it was the very person Jason desperately wanted to see dead as some kind of evidence, some sign that he had MATTERED to his family, that him being taken away from them hurt them enough that they felt driven to DO something about it, beyond the usual toss ‘em and lock ‘em.

Dick actually did that, ‘gave’ Jason what he wanted, and for the very same reasons Jason wanted it, to know that it was because of him, because of the loss of him, because he MATTERED and his absence HURT….and while of course, Dick was never the person Jason most wanted to see do that deed, want to see that evidence from….nonetheless, it very much does remain as significant evidence towards the fact that Jason mattered a great deal to Dick, enough even that having differing beliefs about killing would still be unlikely to ever stand between Dick having some kind of relationship with his returned-from-the-dead brother - because not only was it because of Jason (and Tim as well, admittedly, I’m not trying to gloss over the fact that he was part of the story and part of Dick’s motivation, this is just a matter of topical focus at the moment) not only was it actually BECAUSE of Jason that Dick crossed the line that so often he otherwise rigidly adheres to…it was never that realistic that Dick would judge and condemn Jason for killing, at least not by any narrative that took Last Laugh into consideration.

Because not only has Dick done the same thing himself, and MORE than wanted to do it on many other occasions as well thus he very clearly understands both the temptation and the arguments made for it…..BUT just as significantly IMO, is the AFTERMATH of Last Laugh. Where Dick very clearly was shown wrestling with and being affected by Bruce’s implicit judgment for what he’d done. Meaning not only was Dick never actually likely to condemn or judge Jason….he also is one of a handful of people most able to empathize with being judged or condemned by BRUCE for crossing that line. It never made sense or was realistic that there’d be this great divide between Dick and Jason after his return, that Dick was unable let alone unwilling to try and bridge, even for the sake of spending time with the brother he thought he’d never have a chance to spend time with again.

(And yeah yeah, its not like he was embracing Jason with open arms in Brothers in Blood, but I maintain that had more to do with Jason’s approach than Dick innately being predisposed to being stand-offish with Jason. Like, when you announce yourself by impersonating your brother and getting him a rep as a manic killer being hunted by the police, instead of just like…ringing the doorbell, its kinda like, well, you may have to shoulder some of the blame here. Not to mention there still was the specter of what Jason had done to Dick’s other little brother Tim, with this still unaddressed between the two as of that time).

So yeah, for the above reasons and many more, Dick once again presents a narrative obstacle to a specific KIND of narrative that happens to be the one a lot of Jason’s fans most want to tell. The one where Jason sticks it to all his uptight family and rides off into the sunset with his NEW family, one that appreciates him and holds him in proper respect and positioning, the one where Jason will always be at least a somewhat tragic figure, forever apart from the family he does still very much love, because THEY can’t reconcile who and what HE is and believes.

Cuz once you take Last Laugh into consideration, AND add in Jason’s own words at the end of Brothers in Blood and the fact that they DIDN’T hate each other back when Jason was Robin, nor was it just one-sided on Dick’s end of things…..well, with all that taken into account, it becomes a lot trickier pulling off the above narrative, doesn’t it? When the in-character behavior of Dick according to THAT characterization of him would never accept any version of events where Jason was cast out for good (and yes, yes, RHATO and Bruce exiling Jason from the city, I know that in the New 52 that’s pretty much exactly what happened and Dick didn’t do anything about it, but he was kinda busy getting shot in the head right around that same time, so, y’know. That cuts into the ability to intervene on Jason’s behalf).

But basically, this is IMO why Last Laugh barely gets acknowledged by a lot of Jason’s fans, even though on the surface, you’d THINK its exactly the kind of story that would appeal to anyone who wanted, well, a story where someone in Jason’s family showed that they actually gave a damn the damn dumb clown still wasn’t dead. Its an in canon story that showcases and even highlights very clearly Jason’s place in that person’s family and memories, and the importance and weight with which he was regarded by that family member. Isn’t that exactly what Jason - and thus by extension his fans - have always wanted?

Well….yes, except it was the wrong family member. To have the weight, the significance that a lot of fans TRULY wanted from that story, from that outcome, it needed to be BRUCE that did it, not Dick. There’s no real place in that particular narrative or dynamic for an older brother who does actually give a damn. Like yeah, its great that Dick cared and all, but when its viewed as being more of an all or nothing situation, like, it has to play out with Bruce in that role and no one else, or it doesn’t count, doesn’t mean ENOUGH…..once again, this positions Dick to be more of a narrative obstacle to a certain (popular) kind of story than a benefit.

And so Dick has to be repositioned, reframed, rewritten…..to be something and someone writers can actually work with when writing the kind of story where Bruce’s acknowledgment is the only one that ultimately matters. Him being likely to WANT to help and support Jason from an in-character standpoint, simply doesn’t help writers for whom this just becomes an unwanted plot complication that inherently bumps Dick a little higher up the Priority Ladder, because his status as a Rare Ally rather than Yet Another Antagonist pretty much inevitably paves the way for more screentime for his character, and again….he’s just not the character these writers want to write about (and yeah, again, this part is totally understandable), and they’re really just not interested in allotting him that much screentime, let alone a role that could feasibly steal focus at times from Jason, edge the narrative into being more of a co-lead than the single protagonist it was definitively intended to be.

So. Fandom subset number two is equally predisposed to resenting Dick simply for the narrative obstacle he presents to one of their preferred stories to tell - with again, this pretty much taking off right around the Dickbats era, fueled in no small part by Morrison’s shitty take on Jason, which, while I maintain it was Jason that was most out of character in all of that….DOES still very easily play into that take on him, where he’s misunderstood and eternally at odds with his family.

And which also, I suspect, is why Morrison’s run tends to be weirdly popular with a lot of Jason fans who in most other places are quick to point out earmarks of Jason’s usual characterization that are entirely at odds with Morrison’s take on him, like that he’s extremely against the idea of younger sidekicks in general at this point (especially pre-Reboot), which uh, makes him taking on a younger sidekick a very….Strange Choice.

3) And then lastly we come to Tim, and a lot of his fans’ issues with Dick Grayson - which I think are heightened by a kind of feeling of betrayal that ties in here, and emphasizes the fact that just a year or two prior to Battle for the Cowl, most of these same fans would have sworn they loved Dick’s character and he was a great big brother to Tim.

See, the problem here, I think, lies in the fact that Tim is THE definitive Robin for an entire generation of readers. He’s who they see in the role every time they close their eyes, because he’s who’s always been in the role as far as they’re concerned. Back issues are just that - back issues. They’re about the history of Robin. But in the present, the here and now, for the solid twenty years or so before Battle for the Cowl, for all intents and purposes there really was only one Robin and it was uncontested that it was Tim.

And again, on a lot of levels I totally get this. I’m somewhat similar when it comes to Kyle Rayner and Green Lantern. Kyle was ‘my’ Green Lantern, the one I grew up with, the one starring in the stories that were current and ongoing for me as I aged. I was pissed as hell when they brought Hal Jordan back and he resumed being front and center in the GL franchise…..not because before this I’d had any real strong feelings about Hal one way or the other, outside of how I felt about him in the individual stories he popped up in…..but simply because Hal front and center happens to coincide with the starring GL of the solo title I personally would consider the definitive GL run….like….pretty much getting shoved offstage entirely, most of the time. I get that. It sucks.

Except that’s not QUITE the situation here.

Like the thing is, I do believe that for a lot of fans, Tim IS Robin and Robin IS Tim. That’s how its always been for them, that’s the way they like it, that’s how it should remain until his character is ready to launch into a new persona and identity of his own character’s volition. And its not like it was ever a secret that other Robins came before Tim, and that Dick was actually the creator of the mantle, the guy that all the other later Robins, including Tim, were literally the legacy OF. And its not like Dick wasn’t around in Tim’s stories, and wasn’t a familiar presence to Tim’s fans….its just that for almost twenty years, the WAY Dick appeared in Tim’s stories only added to them. There was no angle from which he took away from Tim’s stories, or the fact that they were Tim’s.

Like yes, he was a reminder that Tim was not the only Robin and never had been, that there were others with just as much claim to the title, if not more……but in a very background way. Not in any way that presented any kind of ‘threat’ to Tim’s actual status as Robin. Dick Grayson’s days as Robin were way in the past, and there was no real likelihood that they were ever going to put him back in that role, so his ‘claim’ to the Robin mantle was never at any point one that potentially contested Tim’s own. It was simply a non-issue. Instead, Dick’s status as the original Robin juxtaposed with his current roles of doting big brother and secondary mentor figure….like, at the time, this actually ADDED to Tim’s own wearing of the mantle. Dick’s presence was less a reminder that he was the one without whom the mantle wouldn’t even exist, and more just a kinda embodiment of the Robin LORE, the fact that Tim’s superhero mantle came with history and the prestige of past accomplishments accomplished by the Robin name, and the gravitas of the dangers and downsides that potentially came with the cape as well. It gave Tim an additional angle that even most of his friends and teammates in various books didn’t have, made him stand out even more.

And it didn’t hurt that pretty much any time there was a guest appearance from Nightwing in Tim’s stories, he was firmly slotted in the supporting character role, there to help Tim but not overshadow Tim, to support him but not claim credit for Tim’s ultimate victory in any given story’s climax. And there weren’t many occasions when things went in reverse, where it was Tim guest-starring in Dick’s stories and thus him clearly slotted in the supporting character category, the B character role….simply because the older veteran hero needing to call upon his younger, comparatively inexperienced ally just was never as likely - and thus, occurring as often - a story as one where the younger, relatively new hero calls upon his more experienced predecessor for help or even just some advice or someone to listen to whatever was troubling the younger hero at the time.

Thus there’s the additional angle where for almost two decades, Dick Grayson’s presence in a Tim Drake narrative was for one reason and one reason only - to support Tim in whatever endeavor he was in the middle of, and to be what Tim needed, when Tim needed.

But then of course, once again we reach Battle for the Cowl….and all of that gets upended, not even because of Dick making Damian Robin per se, IMO…..to me, its always felt like the bigger issue has always been many of Tim’s fans resenting just….the reminder, the newly centered awareness that no matter how long Tim had been THEIR Robin, he wasn’t the only Robin and never had been….and that supportive, helpful older brother whose presence had previously only added to Tim’s stories and their weight, never threatened anything that was ‘his’ narratively speaking…..not only did he also have a claim to the Robin title, he has literally the biggest claim possible, the one none of the others can match due to the mere fact that they are quite literally HIS legacy characters.

Which, not at all incidentally, is IMO the reason a lot of Tim fans are so vocal about dismissing or minimizing the impression/association of Robin with Dick’s first family. Always quick to emphasize that it being his mother’s nickname for Dick was a later addition to the canon, because it ties Dick to the Robin mantle in a way none of the others ever will be. But of course, like I’ve always maintained…that’s besides the point. Whether or not Dick named himself Robin because it was a cherished nickname, because he was a fan of Robin Hood, or for any other reason, its still equally true that he’s the creator of the mantle, plain and simple. It doesn’t exist without him, it was his aims, his intentions, his DEEDS back when he wore the (clearly circus themed and inspired, no matter what else is said about the name’s origin BUT I DIGRESS) costume originally…..like, those are literally what Robin WAS because they were what Dick created Robin to be. It was only something for others to take up later, let alone to even WANT to take up, with it coming with a weight of history and past heroics that later Robins were proud to embrace….all of that’s only because of what Dick imbued the mantle with in the eyes of the world, not to mention his own successors….via what he DID in the costume, while wearing it, coupled with the fact that there’d never really been anything like him before, a kid kicking bad guy ass alongside the more intimidating specter of his mentor.

Dick being the first Robin isn’t just a matter of linear progression, like its not just a matter of him EXISTING ahead of the others ‘in line,’ so to speak. Rather, being the first Robin is a matter of…..its literally HIM and HIS actions that every later Robin is the LEGACY of. He’s the SOURCE of the legacy. And you can’t really go…’how dare the guy I’m literally part of the legacy of, like, think he has the right to decide what happens with the mantle he and he alone created, long before I ever came along’…I mean….y’know? Boiled down to that, that doesn’t really….work, like its pretty plainly evident why the originator of a legacy mantle would think its his place to be the definitive voice on what’s done with his own damned legacy. Regardless of why he named it what he did and what specific associations the name had for him originally.

But there’s always been a determined focus on kinda…..shifting attention away from the question of who actually DOES have the right to say who wears the Robin mantle and when, because I think there is generally an awareness that like….Dick wasn’t out of line to think that his own damn creation was his to give in the name of adding to their circle of family, the same way as it did twice before. Its not that there’s NO angle from which even Tim’s fans might admit that who created a legacy matters in the question of who gets to decide who carries that legacy next. Its more that like….just the reminder, the newly centered awareness that yes, Tim is not the only claimant to the Robin title and never was, like…I think that grates a lot of people, tbh.

It may have been something that there was always SOME awareness of, the whole time, but previously it was in a way that was supposed to be ancient history, not something that could ever end up ‘taking away’ something they strongly identified with being Tim’s and Tim’s alone. Especially when the character suddenly exerting a prior or greater claim on that mantle just so happens to be one that a lot of Tim’s longtime fans had long-since internalized as being part of TIM’S supporting cast, not another protagonist in his own right, one whose decisions could have a shaping effect on Tim’s narrative rather than the other way around, the way it felt like ‘its supposed to go.’

And bringing it back to the overlap with the first two fandom impressions I talked about, I think again, yeah, this resulted in a kind of resentment of Dick’s character and the narrative obstacle he presents to…..well, keeping Robin associated with Tim and Tim alone, practically speaking. Its not so much giving Robin to Damian in the first place that’s the problem, its the fact that he COULD. That within the actual canon narrative, this was acknowledged and supported as something that ultimately, Dick did have the right to do whether individual characters liked it or not, and no, that didn’t make him the same as Bruce when he’d taken it from Dick originally (assuming they acknowledge that version of the story at all in the first place).

Because due to the fact that its not something NEW that was introduced to the story that led to Dick being ABLE to do this, but rather just him choosing to exert an option he’d had the entire time and just previously chosen not to use……inevitably, this creates a slight shift in the framing and context of even previously consumed stories. Suddenly Dick’s presence in many of those previous stories ISN’T incidental, because now they couldn’t help but be viewed through the lens of….remembering what had been kinda hand-waved away as inconsequential the entire time Tim was Robin. The fact that ultimately, Tim was only Robin because Dick endorsed him. That if Dick could give Robin to Damian later, then Dick COULD have, by the exact same token, the exact same claim and association with the mantle he’d been the one to create….he could have stuck by his initial stance, which was that Robin died with Jason.

In all fairness, as I’ve said many times before, this NEVER had anything to do with whether or not Tim became Bruce’s PARTNER, specifically. I’ve never been of the opinion that even Dick’s status as the originator of Robin had nothing to do with who ended up Bruce’s PARTNER after him - that was always going to be between Bruce and that person, and no one else. But whether, as that partner, Tim went by the name Robin….with everything it embodied and signified and carried with it already….that, yes, Dick had always had the option of saying no, I’m not okay with this, I do not give you permission to wear the SPECIFIC mantle I created, what my brother died wearing.

I mean, granted, Bruce and Tim could have done what they wanted anyway, but much like people try and dismiss or invalidate the version of events where Bruce fired Dick as Robin and stripped him of the mantle precisely BECAUSE there’s no real way to go with that version and NOT get that Bruce looks like a douche in it one way or another, simply because that was never his to take….like, same deal here. They could have powered on without Dick’s approval of someone else wearing the Robin costume, but ignoring the wishes of a mantle’s creator, to let it rest given that someone had literally died carrying that very same legacy, HIS legacy….like, that was never going to look good and would have stained pretty much Tim’s entire career as Robin.

So yeah, I think the third corner of this Isosceles of Suck is that I do believe on some level, a lot of Tim fans resent Dick’s character simply for where and in what ways it exists in any and all Robin narratives…..as the one who ultimately CAN NOT be overlooked as inconsequential, because its literally HIS legacy that Tim and all other Robins took PRIDE in embracing. And everything with Damian simply hammered that point home and made it front and center and impossible to avoid confronting, no matter how much a long time fan wanted Robin to belong to and be associated with Tim and Tim only…..with the ironic part being that I truly do GET why this would bug….because again, if you’re here for Tim, if its his stories you want to read and write, if HE’S the one you’re a fan of, and if for whatever reason you just don’t like Dick Grayson all that much even if you don’t actually hate him…..

Yeah, its likely going to lead to resentment if you yourself feel, purely from a narrative standpoint, like….’pressured’ to write Dick being afforded more respect or importance in the other characters’ eyes than you personally feel like writing. But that its hard to avoid or becomes something you actively have to write AROUND any time your own story backs you into a corner where the origins of Robin are directly relevant to the plot, and logistically, and given there’s really no plausible angle from which Tim would have embraced or taken up (let alone taken pride in) a legacy belonging to someone he DIDN’T look up to or view as worthy of respect….like…in this kind of specific plot tangle, it could very easily feel like if you want to keep things feeling in-character, you have no CHOICE but to have Tim talk up or speak positively of a character who, if it were up to you, would never command that kind of respect from Tim, a character you happen to think is just plain better than the one you feel like your story is MAKING you say is so great. Bam. Once again, you got yourself a recipe for Instant Resentment Ramen.

(Again, not at all incidentally, I think the above also has a lot to do with the pretty prevalent trend in Tim-centric stories of having him pretty much ONLY fixate or focus on Jason’s time as Robin, citing him as ‘Tim’s Robin,’ not just as like, a preference but almost to the exclusion of Tim having ever had any kind of interest in, let alone appreciation/respect for, Dick’s version of Robin before Jason stepped into the role. A lot of people would rather the respect/admiration that would normally be afforded by any legacy hero to the person whose legacy they’ve chosen to carry, like, go solely to Jason instead of Dick, just because they like him better and would rather Tim was just his successor, no one else’s.)

And with all three of these angles/elements coming to a head at the exact same place and time in the comic books and fandom……it IMO created kinda the perfect storm right around the Dickbats era, where suddenly all these totally disparate sections of fandom all felt weirdly in agreement on one thing and one thing only….Dick Grayson was really just kinda bugging them, and what’s so great about that dude anyway?

And from there I think they all kinda just fed into each other and grew exponentially, with the individual ‘workarounds’ used by each other characters’ fans to get around the narrative obstacle that Dick represented, like…..I think these all became so prevalent and widespread throughout fandom because even these totally separate corners of fandom that had very little else they agreed on, were more than happy to take each other’s ‘rewrite’ of Dick and his place/depiction in the overall narratives and canon and just run with it….because not at all coincidentally, each other ‘group’s’ revisionist take on Dick Grayson made their own even easier to sell within their own stories. And thus you also ended up with correlating trends like Jason and Tim being besties and bonding over their resentment of Dick, because why not, both their fanon narratives now predominantly shared the same deliberately unappealing depictions of their eldest brother.

With the New 52 and post-reboot storylines then doing absolutely NOTHING to negate or derail all of the above, but rather just reinforcing all of it. Because as Bruce kept being written behaving worse and worse with his children, including Dick, it only added to and expanded upon the problems Bruce’s fans already have with Dick’s character, even if just in terms of how big a plot/characterization obstacle he presents for the stories they want to write.

Just as the way Lobdell wrote Jason equally fed into and built upon the issues a lot of Jason’s fans have with Dick’s character and the tangle he creates for a number of stories. And then with the frequent conflicts over how two of the characters Dick’s historically been closest with had been practically cut and pasted from Dick’s stories and history into Jason’s stories and history instead, like, that just threw more fuel on the fire, particularly when it happened to ignite defensiveness among fans of the Roy/Jason/Kory trio who additionally resented having to defend their usage/embrace of a trio that canon threw together, not them, that they just happened to like. And that in turn hardly making them any less predisposed to resenting how complicated Dick’s character makes things for certain key narratives.

And then lastly, DC’s just complete and total fuckery with Tim’s character in the New 52 as a whole, but specifically in his issues with trying out various personas post-Robin but never finding/creating anything with a truly firm sense of its own identity, the way Dick has Nightwing and Jason has Red Hood, and thus give fans of both characters no REASON to mourn the loss of Robin or wish for them to go back to it….whereas without ever settling into something similar, that was both strongly and uniquely Tim Drake in premise and execution, there was no reason for his fans NOT to begrudge the loss of the Robin mantle and wish for him to go back to it/to have never left it, at least not until he’d found that other persona to actually ‘graduate’ into.

Phew. *wipes brow*

Anyway, that’s my big theory on why fandom as a whole is the way it is about Dick’s canon vs fanon. Am I right? Probably not completely, and even if I am its not like this is universal or that there aren’t other reasons for why fans engage with Dick’s character in the ways they do, including but not limited to “I just don’t like the guy, so what.” And its not like there’s any way to know for sure, or to get a sense of how much of fandom this theory IS on the right track with, at least in some ways. But overall, I do think there’s at least some of the above present in various ‘parts’ of fandom or with various specific fanon trends. *Shrugs* YMMV though.

#me @ me: wow shut up already #me @ @ me: Im not wrong tho #me @ @ @ me: yeah but still. jeez. take a breath much?`#okay Im gonna stop now

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bigskydreaming · 3 years

Text

Also if people instinctively reaching for their “its just my interpretation” arguments as a rebuttal to that post about issue #416 could just not, I’d super appreciate it, thaaaaaanks.

See, the problem I have with that is like....no its not. Its really really not. If your fic or your meta is otherwise DIRECTLY referencing specific story beats of that specific ISSUE, like Dick not having talked to Bruce in over a year, or Dick not knowing Jason even existed until he saw it on the news, or Dick leaving Jason his phone number, or anything of the like.....it is not at all unreasonable for me to expect you to acknowledge the story beats of that very same issue that all of those things are written IN RESPONSE TO.

You can yell at me about how the firing is just a retcon til the cows come home, but y’know what? It was a retcon that was reiterated IN THAT VERY SAME ISSUE. In it, Dick reiterated what the firing looked like from his perspective, how he waited around for two weeks for Bruce to change his mind before packing up and leaving with opportunities for Bruce to say something every step of the way....THAT is the SPECIFIC sequence of events that Dick’s anger about all of this comes from.

So its extremely disingenuous to try and pair that anger with the pre-Crisis ‘better version’ of events where Dick gives up being Robin all on his own and becomes Nightwing while still on good terms with Bruce...because that version of events has its OWN corresponding aftermath that was written in direct response to THOSE character choices. Like the aftermath where right after becoming Nightwing, Dick turns around and offers Robin to Jason himself, as he of course is already well acquainted with Jason by then. See, that’s kinda part of why Dick and Bruce are on such better terms in that version of events. It has a lot to do with Bruce not adopting a whole other son without so much as a phone call to let Dick know his family had expanded.

Now you can mix and match to your heart’s content, that has NEVER been in question. Especially since as so often said, its a fandom past time to take a match to canon and watch it burn. You don’t have to adhere to aaaaaanything you don’t want to.

BUT.

If you want to talk about INTERPRETING the canon? That is subject to a different set of standards. Because you’re acknowledging that the source material exists as a point of RELEVANCE to you.....and the fact is....the source material is the SAME for everyone discussing it. Now, people can and do have different interpretations of that same material, this is obviously true. But ACTUAL. GENUINE. DISCUSSION of it.....requires that all parties at least discuss those interpretations in good faith, and make an honest attempt to address the material as it is.

And that is not what happens in this fandom. Because you damn well KNOW that for all your talk of the firing just being a retcon......its still the specific version of events the “Dick being mad about Bruce giving Robin to Jason” thing is directly meant to reference and BUILD off of. Retcon or not, it is indisputably the FOUNDATION upon which the other character choices of that very same issue are built atop of.

Because there is another version of events, yes. The pre-Crisis version where Dick gives up Robin. But as I said, that version DOES NOT HAVE Dick angry or resentful....because a key component of it is that all three of them, Bruce, Dick and Jason, are already a family in spirit. There’s a true succession of Robin from Dick passing it down to Jason.

And a lot of you guys know this too. Especially the ones most likely to reach for that “let us have our interpretation!” arguments. Because the Dick Grayson corner of fandom has posted about it a LOT. In fact, we kinda churn out a crap ton of content for this fandom. Headcanons, ficlets, informative posts, etc. And there’s a very curious phenomenon that exists.....

Literally anything I or certain other DG fans post that is inclusive of the whole family, or does not reference any specific event that’s infamous within fandom for pitting Dick against another Batfam member in a ‘who was right, discuss” kinda way.....that tends to circulate WIDELY in fandom. We’re talking upwards of a thousand notes, regularly.

In comparison.....the informative posts that are chock full of panels pointing out how canon actually goes in these specific instances.....tend to top out at a couple hundred max. Its pretty much just fellow DG stans who reblog them. Everyone else, despite them going through the same initial routes of circulation....are very good at pretending they don’t see them.

Because see, misinformation - and make no mistake, that is what we’re talking about here - RELIES on a lack of like.....actual information provided to the contrary to thrive.

For instance, if it were as common knowledge that in the pre-Crisis version of Dick becoming Nightwing, he makes Jason Robin himself, as it is say.....that the firing Dick as Robin story is ‘just a shitty retcon’......people might start to ask in greater numbers, like, okay, so why DON’T more people write Dick making Jason into Robin after giving it up himself? Why have Dick so bitter at Bruce and/or Jason, if in the only version where Dick gives up Robin, Dick passes it on himself? If you’re gonna go with the one, why not the other?

Because we all know damn well that’s not a difference in interpretation. That’s a conscious CHOICE to TRANSFORM the source material by stitching together two different sides of a cause and effect chasm. The events transpiring after Dick finds out Bruce made Jason Robin himself ARE NOT MEANT to reference the inciting event of Dick giving up Robin himself. You can make that happen, sure. But you have to MAKE it happen. There is no point in the comics where you can honestly, genuinely point to the comics and say this right here shows Dick being mad about this, where ‘this’ is Bruce giving Robin to Jason SPECIFICALLY after Dick gave Robin up, rather than being fired.

A choice has to be made there, for that to happen, if one has the ACTUAL information about how that really played out in the comics rather than just misinformation. And not everyone in fandom trusts everyone else to make the choices they would like them to make with the source material, do they?

After all, isn’t that the REAL root of all this?

See.....its no secret to any of us that nobody’s been all that happy with the actual comics aka source material in years. Meaning most of fandom, myself included, is here for meta and fics based on previously written comics, or our own adaptations of the material.

And fandom, being interactive, unlike canon.....is something that CAN be influenced by other fans.

So why don’t we all just stop fucking pretending that we’re not all trying to influence what the overarching fandom narratives are, shall we?

Oh, you can say this is just me projecting, but I’ve got plenty of instances of hypocrisy to point to that say otherwise. And THAT is the true source of my hostility in so many posts in this fandom.

Because its the very same people who loudly cry “let people have their headcanons” and “let people have their interpretations” and “stop trying to tell people there’s only one true version of canon to go off of” who NEVER. EVER. fail to show up on posts like that last one, the SECOND they start to circulate ‘too widely’ throughout fandom. There is ALWAYS someone waiting in the wings the minute a post like that starts to top a couple hundred notes, ready and raring to shoot it down with some kind of derailment or condescending reminders to everyone who might see it that ‘that’s just a bad retcon for people obsessed with misery porn’ or something like that.

And what exactly should we be calling that? When people show up every single time I make a post about the importance of Robin as a name to Dick, in order to make a big stink about how it being his mother’s name for him is just a retcon? Even though....did I say it wasn’t? Does it being a retcon mean it doesn’t exist? Am I not allowed MY interpretation of a story that very much does exist in canon, am I not allowed to reference other stories where that specific retcon is specifically linked to?

Or how about if I say, post a headcanon about Alfred getting snippy with Bruce about not reaching out to Dick after he leaves home, where within the headcanon itself I specifically reference a clear version of the story where Dick is fired and its eighteen months before he and Bruce speak again? Does this story not exist in canon? Am I not allowed to base stuff of it? It would seem not, given the way people jumped to derail that one by adding in additions about Dick being upset with Bruce about college, which is an entirely different continuity that in no way intersects with the specific events I reference, where they’re estranged for a clear reason that is directly raised within the headcanon itself. People even acknowledge “OP is entitled to any version of continuity they want” in that one, but are like....this one is wrong though, and true fans prefer the one that isn’t just misery porn meant to validate Dick’s teenage angst. With people all too happy to reblog that one while gleefully pointing out the tags that completely derail the post about a clear point in canon by making it entirely about another unrelated point in a different continuity in order to invalidate the initial headcanon or whatever.

Don’t even get me started on when we dare reference stories where Bruce is actually physically abusive to Dick, or when we link Dick’s actions in stories that acknowledge the emotional abuse or neglect of certain key moments in his life TO those inciting moments directly and say “hey its kinda shitty to act like Dick was just being a standoffish brat here when Dick’s attitude is actually directly based on the last time he and Bruce interacted being when Bruce told him to get out and leave his keys.” LOLOL nooooo, that’s not allowed to stand, because see, the ONLY possible reason we could have for even CONSIDERING those stories in character or in continuity, is because of the aforementioned addiction to misery porn or else because we’re just trying to smear Bruce to make our own fave look better.

Never mind that another popular refrain for a lot of the people I’m talking about here is “you don’t know what people are thinking or why they like the things that they like” so, y’know. It is a tad irritating to see that double standard applied, like I mean. Just speaking personally, I’m a survivor of childhood physical and sexual abuse with a lifetime’s worth of C-PTSD and permanent estrangement from my abusive family, so like....those stories where Dick is abused by a figure he never thought would hurt him and now has to reconcile that with still loving and admiring that very same person and still wanting to be family.....like, hey guess what, those themes are part of why his character resonates for me in particular and so they’re kiiiiiinda key for me to explore for a lot of reasons. And given that this fandom looooooves to talk about some people writing dark shit to cope, I find it veeeeeery curious that people are so willing to shut the fuck up and say nothing about incest, rape and pedophilia fics even if they don’t like them themselves......but will still come out of the woodwork to condescend about there being absolutely no valid reason for anyone to ever engage with content where Bruce is abusive even just in one singular instance.....nah. Its literally just cuz of the misery porn addiction.

But see.....the thing at the heart of all this is the simple fact that this hypocrisy doesn’t exist just for the sake of hypocrisy. It exists because we actually all DO know how much power and influence fans can have in an interactive environment like fandom.

After all, the entire reason that Dick Grayson fans are so often posting informative panel-filled posts about what ACTUALLY happens in canon stories that are DIRECTLY cited in many meta, fanfics and headcanons, just.....in a totally backwards way that just so happens to fail to mention that its not intended to be an accurate depiction of the canon its definitely mentioning its in reference to....

The entire reason for this is because of how thoroughly fandom has crafted a specific narrative for Dick Grayson’s character that is based PURELY on their own characterization wants and needs and has very little to do with the actual canon of the character.

Its not a coincidence that so many fans just so happen to genuinely, truly believe that Dick was a grade A asshole to Jason while he was Robin, and there’s a wealth of canon out there somewhere to back it up. No, this happened because of fanFIC narratives where this is the case, and these catching on, and being encouraged by the initial writers of this trope and its fans and so on and so forth until it became the overarching fandom narrative and not only didn’t require any canon basis to be so....it barely ALLOWED for any talk of the contrary. Dick Grayson stans had to yell and churn out posts like that last one for YEARS to make a DENT in this fanon conviction, and do NOT even approach me about it being an issue of tone and ‘if we’d only asked politely’ because lol. No. We did. You can find the clear shift in the tone of my posts from when I first re-entered the fandom years ago to when I just got frustrated with the willful avoidance of WHY so many fans like myself are so annoyed by certain fandom convictions......and even then, it was about the hypocrisy. It was about how loudly other people crow about letting them have their headcanons while literally shouting down ANY post we made about wanting space to just have our CANON-canon.

Pro-tip: that thing where if you just ignore someone long enough on a certain point, they’ll inevitably start to get frustrated and then you can point to their tone as being the problem and claim that was the issue all along? Yeah. Its not slick. This fandom didn’t invent it. Its always very transparent, and very obnoxious.

But the point is.....fandom absolutely has the ability to override canon narratives with their own version that’s then formative for new entrants to the fandom who never even BOTHER with the source material and just are here for the fic. And so its dishonest as FUCK for people to not only MAKE no distinction between what’s genuinely their interpretation of the canon and what’s their transformation of it, with INTENT......but to weaponize fandom’s aversion to content-criticism to shout down even ATTEMPTS to introduce discussion of the actual source material by claiming oh you’re just trying force your preferred narrative on everyone else. Aka that thing THEY’RE actually doing themselves by once attaining a fandom wide narrative they like, maintaining a stranglehold on it and doing their best to dissuade any narratives to the contrary staking a claim alongside that.

Because again, it all comes back to the fic. See, as a Dick Grayson fan, I’ve made no secret of the fact that I turn to fic for what I can’t get from canon...and its frustrating as hell to see writers that loudly talk of being BETTER than canon and “RIP to canon but my Batfam loves each other” in a lot of cases DELIBERATELY make Dick in particular look WORSE.....and then act like they have no idea what we’re talking about when we try and tell fans who take these narratives at face value that uh, they’re lacking some extremely relevant context and nuance. Or in some cases, outright facts.

And I will happily laugh loudly in the face of anyone who tries to claim that they don’t feel similarly about fics that characterize their own faves in ways they don’t like.

Yeah, try telling me that after years of some of you writing fics that specifically exclude all reference to the events of Nightwing #30 when talking about Dick’s death or Spyral.....while still including every in canon instance of people bagging on Dick for what he only did in canon because of Bruce’s abusive writing. There’s kinda a vested interest in keeping fandom relatively free of talk of Nightwing #30 then.....because weirdly, people who write about a DIFFERENT take that’s not hostile to Dick seem to end up putting the blame on Bruce for that situation. Bizarre, I know. People attributing blame to the character who was actually abusive in the canon and being cranky that the victim of said abuse is held up as the sacrificial lamb in everyone else’s fics? Whodathunkit.

(Also a point of irritation - it never had to be just one or the other. This is where the whole ‘maybe its YOU guys who were projecting all along when you said the only reason we could have for talking about Bruce’s abuse was an intent to smear the character’ bit is a thing. See, fun fact: if you were going to ignore an issue or two in order to completely flip the narrative of what really happened with Spyral and dominate the fandom landscape for a couple of years....it never had to be Nightwing #30 that was the ONLY issue you could leave out in order to not make Bruce look like an abusive asshat. Like, there was always another option right there in front of you. You could have instead chosen to also leave out Grayson #12, aka the one where Dick informs everyone else he’s alive.....then you could very easily just sliiiiiide in reference to Bruce and Dick quietly informing the whole family of his status and his mission while insisting on keeping it quiet for his safety. Voila. NOBODY has to be an asshole then, and the whole family gets to be in the know. But see, most people didn’t actually have a problem with someone being an asshole in that story. They just didn’t want it to be Bruce, and didn’t mind it being his actual victim.

Even though, lol, just another FYI.....abuse victims having things flipped on them so it looks like they’re the true problem and their abusers are completely innocent is a HUGE thing that happens a lot in real life, so FYI about that FYI.....anyone who does say, gravitate towards Dick Grayson specifically because of how he’s impacted or might be impacted by abuse from his father, like.....is proooooobably not going to have a super fun time with diehard commitment to making this particular fictional character the true mastermind of his family’s misery and abusive instead of the abused. Weird huh.)

And round and round it goes. Where it ends, nobody knows.....because it doesn’t. fucking. stop. The number of ways in which fandom has willfully flipped the narrative so that Dick is the aggressor instead of the aggrieved is just absolutely ridiculous. This guy has been punched by every member of his family except Duke and Alfred, and somehow he’s the one characterized as uncomfy to be around because of how volatile he is. This guy is the only one who has actually been KICKED OUT of the manor, and somehow that gets glossed over and considered out of character while he apparently definitely did very much do this exact specific thing to Tim, I hear.

And like broken records, people squawk ‘let us have our interpretations/headcanons/etc’ any time we try and make a stink about how no, actually, that’s NOT HOW IT WENT....and at the EXACT SAME TIME....most of these exact same people show up on every post that uses ACTUAL information to make Bruce or Jason or Tim or whomever look like the actual problem in a story where they were actually problematic, like, the SECOND a post gets popular enough....to derail, to condescend, to shout it down with how its just a retcon or its out of character or its just a bad take or how fans with taste know better than to take it seriously.

And why do you care? Like, if we’re all supposed to just live and let live and everyone’s allowed their own interpretations, why this everpresent need to show up all the time with a superior, patronizing ‘oof, this is just not good’ the second one of YOUR faves is in the hotseat, while condescendingly boxing out any posts informing people of how no, actually, Dick and Kory’s breakup WAS linked to Mirage and Dick and Donna’s infamous fight WASN’T the way its commonly talked about and oh yeah there was brainwashing there too and etc, etc....see, when WE do that, we’re just overacting stans who can’t stand others not liking our fave. Instead of just....trying to correct misinformation so more fans can at least engage with the character from a starting point of zero instead of a negative integer.

So why this hypocrisy? Oh yeah, because you don’t WANT the misinformation corrected. Because see, when the misinformation IS corrected, fic writers en masse....make different choices. And that’s why ever since more people started picking up the refrain of “well no actually Dick DIDN’T hate Jason, here’s the proof”.....there’s a lot more stories out there where...shockingly....Dick doesn’t hate Jason. Which bizarrely, does not really work well for the people who WANTED Dick to hate Jason and made a point to SHAPE the narrative to make him hate Jason.....because it wasn’t about that just being their interpretation, and it never was. Because the CHOICE to cut out Dick’s ‘justification for feeling slighted’ by being fired as Robin and pair that specifically WITH Dick resenting Jason for Bruce still making him Robin instead of Dick doing it....that has a narrative cause and effect within a lot of the fics that go with this. It gives Jason eternal underdog status that makes it easy to root for him while positioning someone specifically to blame for that underdog status and unfair playing field, and it also keeps focus off Bruce as the cause of any issues between his sons due to choices HE made, thus one singular figure is positioned as the obstacle to family unity....and that figure isn’t Bruce.

And no canon to the contrary will be acknowledged as legitimate.

Convenient huh?

Especially paired with the ‘thou shalt not con crit on another’s fic’ fandom commandment. Because when you can’t complain about any fanfic depictions whatsoever without immediately and inherently being cast as the rabble-rouser by default.....the ability to shape and dominate a specific fandom narrative becomes veeeeery key. After all, another popular fandom phrase is ‘we’re not the DC writers, complain to them about canon.’ But when there’s no canon complaint to be made to DC specifically, because its not canon we’re actually upset about, and we’re not ‘allowed’ to criticize fandom depictions because people are allowed to have their interpretations......all you have to do is stand your ground and insist that the fandom depictions of Dick are nothing BUT ‘interpretations’ and not acknowledge aaaaaaany of the places where you consciously make the decision to transform canon choices and behavior around him.....and voila. You’ve wrapped everything up in a neat little logic trap. Quite the fait accompli. There’s really no way for anyone to say or do anything ABOUT this little situation here without being ‘disruptive,’ ‘divisive’ and ‘having a negative impact on fandom harmony.’

Its just always gonna be a little weird to me, how much your positivity culture looks a lot like plausible deniability culture instead.

But whatever. That’s just a me problem I guess. Definitely not something anyone else in fandom has anything to do with. Just like they have nothing to do with derailments or condescension or counter arguments to so many of the canon-based Dick Grayson posts I make, and this is also all my doing...wait...hang on. I think I got mixed up again somewhere. Dang it.

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bigskydreaming · 4 years

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What are some Dick Grayson facts that you wish were talked about more

I don’t know about facts per se, but my biggest thing I wish was talked about more with him was just....flipping the script BACK from how its so often flipped on him.

What I mean by that is, Dick’s kinda unique in that the expectations that are layered on him both by characters and readers alike, means that most of his actions are judged by a standard of not whether they’re ‘good’ but whether they’re ‘good enough.’

Bruce, Jason, Tim, Damian....the stuff they get judged for is stuff they actually do in canon. Dick, the stuff that most commonly gets held against him....the framing of it is SPECIFICALLY that what he did wasn’t AS GOOD as what he COULD have done.

And that’s how we get things like when Jason was Robin, and there’s not really anything specific anyone can point to as proof Dick was a jerk or callously neglectful of him, etc.....so instead the thing that gets most cited about that time is that Dick’s efforts at being a brother weren’t good enough. That he should have done more, made more of an effort, should have tried harder.

Or the thing with Tim and Damian and Robin, even the most vocal critics of Dick’s actions there tend to agree that there wasn’t a real alternative that would have kept Damian from going back to the League of Assassins, so instead the criticism is kept this vague murky thing where how Dick handled it wasn’t good enough, and he should’ve done it better, even though at most the only thing anyone’s ever specified about how he could’ve done it better is saying he should have talked to Tim beforehand, and does that really track? Fans holding a grudge against a character for ten years because he....didn’t have a conversation ahead of time?

Or with Spyral, the takeaway is that even if it wasn’t Dick’s choice to let everyone think he was still dead and he was being unduly pressured by his father to do so, he should have somehow found a way to satisfy all parties, and keep everyone appeased, and failing to do so was him not doing a good enough job at...being Dick Grayson.

See what I mean? Pretty much all the greatest hits levied against Dick Grayson, unlike when other characters are cited as doing specific things they’re criticized for.....in Dick’s case, the criticism is almost always about him not meeting some arbitrary hypothetical BETTER standard.

And as a result....

The REVERSE never gets talked about.

The stuff that Dick actually DID.

And so with Jason as Robin, the focus is entirely on how whatever Dick did do wasn’t good enough....meaning nobody’s ever talking about what Dick DID do says about him....the fact that despite having no obligation to Jason, no responsibility for him, no reason to try and make something of a relationship with him despite Bruce doing nothing to encourage that and placing sizable roadblocks as to why Dick would even want to, Dick DID look past resentments he had about Jason being so easily adopted when he never had been, Bruce giving away the mantle he had no right to give away let alone take from Dick in the first place.....and Dick DID make an effort to bond with and be there for a kid who had everything Dick himself wanted and was being denied by their father, without taking it out on him. I mean, he took Jason skiing. Yeah, all we ever saw of that is a photo referenced in one story years later, but that’s not a small thing.

Someone in Dick’s position being able to see past all the extremely valid reasons he had to be hurt and bitter right now, to just do right by this kid and take him out of town on a freaking ski trip that had them both smiling and taking photos together....is not a small thing. Its a clear point in Dick’s FAVOR in a situation and time period that has been flipped to be all about how he wasn’t a good enough brother....and this coming up more often in terms of Jason’s demise “I wonder if I had only been a better brother, if Jason would still be alive”....than even writers having Bruce wonder “if I hadn’t come down so hard about Garzonas or had tried harder to hear Jason out, would he have ever run off looking for more family”....even though BRUCE is the one that Jason actually lived with and interacted with and was affected by, day after day.

And same thing with Tim and Damian.....at most, its begrudgingly acknowledged that Dick was going through a lot at the time too, but its never actually taken all the way to being flipped to examine what Dick DID do during Battle of the Cowl....as in, he tried to meet every single one of his brothers halfway, and Damian’s the only one who ACTUALLY met him there and gave him a chance. Jason and Tim just rebuffed Dick’s efforts totally, because they weren’t ALL THE WAY in the direction of what THEY wanted and basically Dick just caving so they could have it 100% their way. Dick, despite the fact that being the eldest brother should never have meant having to solely step up into the role of Damian’s father, WE’s CEO, Gotham’s Batman and more, all alongside the abandonment/neglect of everything DICK had ever prioritized for HIMSELF, worked for, made HIS OWN personal mission and priority....Dick still tried to navigate a literally impossible situation and do right by everyone, its just he was mostly told nope, this isn’t good enough, and if its not good enough by my standards its not worth anything to me.

(I’d love for people to talk more about the absolute sucker punch Dick must have felt the way most people write Tim’s ‘side of things’ back then....with it being matter-of-factly stated that Dick took away ‘the one thing Tim had left’ by taking away Robin....as though Tim didn’t still have Dick himself, as his brother, the whole damn time, and Tim and his stans are the only ones who made that meaningless, acting as though Dick being Tim’s brother meant nothing unless Tim was Robin too. “You still have me, aren’t I worth anything to you,” I’d love to see more people write Dick thinking as the brother he’s given so much of himself to over the years, including his own NAME, walks away from him as though Dick means nothing to him unless things aren’t on Tim’s terms, the way Tim wants them).

But you see what I mean? So often, the script is flipped on Dick from the word go, so he’s not even being evaluated in terms of what HAPPENED, but in terms of what DIDN’T happen, and what a fan or writer/reader personally feels SHOULD have happened instead.

Because the reality is, what DID happen....is not grounds for criticizing Dick and rather speaks to how damn much of himself he habitually sacrifices for the sake of others, and that doesn’t work when the narrative people WANT is one that shows how Dick the Golden Boy is less than perfect....when they’re the only ones insisting he be judged and evaluated according to some arbitrary standard of perfection!

So that’s what I’d like to see talked about more with Dick....seeing the script flipped back to allow for discussion of what Dick actually DOES that’s to his credit in all these scenarios and more......instead of the conversation so often being dominated by a need to defend Dick from criticisms that essentially all come back to him not being good enough, or just flat out perfect.

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bigskydreaming · 3 years

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So its no secret that I’ve always been RAWR about takes that talk about how Dick and Bruce aren’t father and son because that doesn’t sum up all they are, really, and actually their relationship is more than ‘just’ father and son.....

But see my issue there, specifically, has always been that for all that people SAY that, when expressing this kind of view, these takes never seem to actually include the idea that Dick and Bruce ARE father and son in ADDITION to whatever ‘else’ they are, that makes their relationship more than ‘just father and son.’ Y’know?

And so it always comes across to me as kinda being one of those lip service things that’s meant to placate resistance to this idea, while still pressing forward with the idea itself and attempting to slot it into the overall narrative/impression of Dick and Bruce’s relationship without anyone being able to actually counter it to any degree. Because then people can be like “no but see, we’re agreeing with you, we’re saying that Dick and Bruce ARE father and son, we’re just not focusing on that label because we feel it doesn’t encapsulate ALL that they are and thus its not the best way to describe them.”

But again....how is that actually agreement with the idea that they’re parent and child, if there’s never any actual inclusion or acknowledgment of the idea that they’re parent and child in ADDITION to anything else that describes what they are to each other, that can’t be summed up as JUST that? If there’s never any acknowledgment of the fact that whatever else Bruce is to Dick, he always had full parental authority over Dick from the moment he came to Wayne Manor? Of the fact that so many of their most iconic conflicts are not those of brother and older brother, but disputes unique to fathers and sons, or family members of two different generations at the very least? If focus is never put on, but instead meant to distract from, the fact that when Dick bucks against Bruce authoritatively making a decision about his life, its that of a child resisting OVER-REACHING exertions of parental authority.....like its not even Dick objecting to Bruce wielding ANY kind of parental authority over him whatsoever, the canon is never actually Dick being like ‘you dont get to decide that for me because you’re not my real dad,’ its literally ‘you dont get to decide that for me because its MY life and I’m an adult at this point.’

Like, even when Bruce acting in his capacity as a parent is the SPECIFIC point of conflict between them, its never because he dares to do so whatsoever, like Dick implicitly always cedes him the power and authority to MAKE decisions based on him being Dick’s parent....the resistance is always tailored AROUND the built in acknowledgment that Bruce can and will act as a parent, even if that’s not what they’re officially calling it at that particular point in canon.

Plus, as I’ve said before, I’ll always be weirded out that people seem MORE ready to accept Dick as Damian’s parent even when Bruce returns and is there as an actual figure that Dick doesn’t want to get between building his own relationship Damian, or replace as Damian’s father.....than they are the idea that Bruce could truly be Dick’s father because it would put him between Dick and his memories of someone who isn’t even around to still act as a parent to him.

Idk. Ultimately I think where I always get stuck here is with how often people refer back to canon as their basis for a particular interpretation of the character dynamics, even in a fandom that swears canon isn’t all that important....

Because the thing is, that whole bit about Dick not wanting Bruce to replace his dad is ultimately just one line from a story back in the GOLDEN AGE.....whereas since then, there have been tons of instances of Bruce and Dick being blatantly father and son and even explicitly referring to each other as such, as well as Dick’s actual adoption.

Its kinda like that thing I’m always pointing out in regards to Dick and Jason’s relationship, and how people point to the one line Dick said (in an era where editorial were really actively pushing the idea that Jason was responsible for his own death to distract from DC’s own culpability there), like....its that thing where people point to the ONE time Dick said something even tangentially negative about Jason as proof that he never liked or cared about him....while at the exact same time ignoring the far GREATER evidence to the contrary, such as Last Laugh, or Dick hallucinating Robin Jason as a comforting figure at one point, or the actual canon interactions of the two pre-ADITF.

Like, of course we all get to pick and choose what canon we abide by, especially when canon seems to directly contradict itself, but its always going to be significant in my mind when people point to singular moments in canon as ‘proof’ of something, while acting like the far greater canon evidence to the contrary is irrelevant?

Idk how to precisely state my gripe here. I think maybe its the fact that singular moments are pointed to as EVIDENCE, specifically, while disregarding that there’s just as much evidence to the exact opposite of a take....instead of singular moments just being pointed to as being like “this is my preference for this, based on me having read this and it just being what happened to stick with me"?

Honestly just musing out loud, or in text, here, not really drawing any conclusions specifically, more just....working my way through thoughts on this subject in a way that might be of interest to others or launch others’ thoughts in various directions.

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bigskydreaming · 4 years

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I’m almost more bothered by fics that don’t take an actively antagonistic stance towards Dick’s character, because what’s so often viewed as a GOOD storyline for Dick in fanfics is just like.....100% connected to my issues with fanon.

What I mean is this:

So many Batfam fics, even when they think they’re being kind or generous to Dick’s character, treat any relationship Dick develops or demonstrates with Jason in-story as Dick’s redemption arc, for being a shitty brother/person before a certain point.

And then on top of that, a ton of fics that include all the way through Damian by their starting point, then proceed to use any relationship (or attempt at one) between Dick and Tim.....as Dick’s redemption arc, for being a shitty brother/person to Tim at the Robin-Red Robin transition.

And then on top of THAT, you have the Batfam fics that focus on post-Spyral interactions with his family as....Dick’s redemption arc for being a shitty brother/person there, and during the Ric Grayson era we had ‘fix-it fic’ after fic whose idea of fixing it was picking things up at some point after Dick got his memories back and then proceeding to write Dick’s redemption arc for Ric being a shitty brother/person there. And even going all the way back to Bruce and Dick’s era of estrangement before Tim came along, there’s still absurdly so many fics over the years dedicated to....Dick redeeming himself in other characters’ eyes for that chasm with absolutely no effort in the same fics shown towards having Bruce work towards any kind of remption for his own behavior.

Historically speaking, the vast majority of fics tagged as Dick Grayson, stretching back years and still very much present now as well, are almost predominantly ALL somehow some kind of redemption arc for Dick.....

Specifically in regards to events and dynamics which have absolutely no basis (or at most an extremely skewed and one-sided one) in the source material.

In fact, in the majority of most of the situations Dick’s being ‘redeemed’ for in fanfics, he either did the complete OPPOSITE of what he’s being punished/forced to make up for in fics, such as how his efforts in reaching out to Jason despite his own understandable bitterness stands in direct contradiction of the years of neglect and bitterness towards Jason that fics posit and theorize existed purely so that he has something TO redeem himself for in fics.....

Or then other times in the source material, he’s the literal actual victim of the things that he’s not only being held solely accountable and in need of redemption for in fics, like when he was beaten into going undercover for the sake of his family.....and then has to redeem himself for that in his family’s eyes......or when he was alienated, neglected and gaslit by his family while amnesiac.....and then has to redeem himself for that in his family’s eyes.....

And even in the cases where its SAID within a fic’s narrative (or more accurately, usually its said in the comments sections of fics as fic authors respond to people being disgusted with Dick by saying ‘no don’t be too hard on him’ and offering up justifications for Dick’s actual actions and understanding for his POV that for some reason never make it into the actual text of fics), like, even then, at most these fics TELL us that the flaws of Dick’s that they’re focusing on are understandable and its just human of him to be resentful of Jason as Robin, or overwhelmed and grief-stricken when he made Damian Robin at Tim’s expense, or traumatized and not thinking clearly when he ‘agreed’ to go undercover at Spyral.....

But meanwhile, what the fics actually SHOW us, beyond a few half-hearted defenses of Dick that usually are not at all substantiated by any other characters.....is Dick remorsefully doing the work of making up for the things he did so terribly, terribly wrong and that there’s actually no excuse for.

With this showing being a lot more evident and focused-upon than we ever see fics show Jason working towards earning Tim’s forgiveness and trust for almost killing him, or Damian doing the same, fics just skip past these things entirely to say ‘oh they’re better now’ but like....with Dick....its like the only storyline a ton of writers have any interest in writing for Dick....

Is a redemption arc.

Actively focusing on and SHOWING Dick putting in the work of being apologetic, remorseful, self-loathing, and absolutely committed to doing better by his siblings even if they never actually forgive him - with whether or not he can eventually ‘earn’ his way to a positive relationship with them far from a given - and any and all of his positive attributes or the positives of his actual relationships with various characters all but completely ignored or glossed over, to keep the focus entirely on Dick learning to do better.....

Than the crimes or slights against his siblings that authors first manufactured or exaggerated or took completely out of context, just to HAVE a reason for Dick to need to do better in the first place.

As I’ve said many times before, anyone is free to do whatever they want with fanfic, its an innately transformative medium, but its always going to be significant and worth attention in my mind, that so much of the transformation from the source material when it comes to Dick Grayson is entirely focused around and committed to transforming him from a hero that everyone loves and respects, a guy that always does his best to go above and beyond for family even when he has understandable reasons not to, and the literal inspiration for almost every second generation hero out there, including his own successors......

Into a guy that most people can’t stand, regard as irrelevant to their own careers let alone anyone worth looking up to, and constantly letting people down, especially his family.

All while there’s little to no attention paid to all the reasons in the source material that other characters most definitely have things they’ve said or done to Dick Grayson that need or deserve redeeming for.

Like the physical violence every single member of his family except Duke has inflicted on him at some point.

Or the victim blaming that’s so ingrained into his storylines and reader receptions of his storylines that even the fics that tackle redeeming Jason, Tim, etc for their behavior towards Dick post-Spyral limit this particular redemption to ‘we’re sorry we treated you badly when we didn’t know all the facts’ instead of ‘we’re sorry we treated you badly, full stop’ and ‘we’re sorry we passed judgment without even TRYING to know what all the facts were’ and ‘we’re sorry we display so little interest in your life or your traumas that even now when we’ve been informed you actually died and had to be forced into pretending to stay dead, we have zero interest in exploring if there’s anything else we might be missing if we could miss out on the whole ‘oh you really DID die’ part in the first place, and forget about us actually owning and apologizing for the specifics of how our behavior towards you was unacceptable even if we HAD been right in our interpretation of events.’

Or when mentions of the slutshaming and victim-blaming he endured during the Tarantula and Mirage storylines are limited to just that....mentions made of offscreen characters like Babs or the Titans.....with pretty much no stories I can think of, existing as ‘redemption arcs’ that tackle those characters actually working to redeem themselves for their behavior and trying to earn back Dick’s broken trust in them. Its usually just Jason and/or others finding out, telling Dick ‘hey your friends shouldn’t have done that either’ and then going off and murdering Mirage and Tarantula, the end, because....that fixes everything?

And forget about Bruce redeeming himself for his behavior - the way he works to put in the effort and fix things in so many ‘Jason returns to the family’ fics - but even when actual mention is made of the things Bruce HAS done wrong to Dick or needs redeeming for, its mostly just waved off as ancient history that he’s remorseful about but there’s no apparent need or effort to focus on Bruce putting that remorseful energy into action and actively on the page trying to bridge the gap he created in SO MANY storylines, again and again and again. ‘Bruce is just like that,’ a lot of stories shrug, about the time Bruce made Dick actually feel unwelcome in his own home and forced him to be the one to leave, unlike the way ‘its unacceptable for Dick to be like this’ energy is applied to stories about Dick forcing Tim to leave Wayne Manor....an action that has to be invented for a story’s purposes, of course, given that in the actual source story, Dick relocated himself and Damian to the penthouse anyway, and Wayne Manor was open and available to Tim and Dick never so much as implied otherwise.

Or look at how the adoption issue so often plays out....with it treated as though Bruce finally adopting Dick in adulthood just ‘fixes’ all the angst before that point, like it just overwrites everything he felt or experienced before and up until that.....with very little fandom energy paid to neither just castigating Bruce for not adopting Dick earlier or acting like adoption is a magic all-better now band-aid, but rather examining that both these things can coexist, and Dick can be happy and relieved and pleased to finally have the adoption he not-so-secretly wanted, even if only in adulthood, but that doesn’t mean the mental and emotional upset of his later teen years when he really, really, really could have used that declaration of being family rather than just a ward....like, there’s room for that to have still taken a toll and be worthy of awareness and regret on Bruce’s part, not for taking so long to adopt Dick, but for the damage Dick felt and suffered through BECAUSE of it.

Its not even about vilifying or punishing Bruce for this, because ironically, like....redemption arcs aren’t actually supposed to be just about punishment or whatever? Its about acknowledging where wrong was done and GETTING what that means for the person who was wronged.....even if it can’t be undone.

People can get this when its Dick being written as having the redemption arc.

So where the hell is this understanding of what actual redemption MEANS, when its Dick that other characters have things to make up for?

The funny, ironic, cognitive dissonant thing about Dick Grayson in fanfics, is the vast majority of his appearances and storylines all somehow come back towards being his redemption arc in some way or form.....

For the made-up or exaggerated fanon crimes applied to him in fic, but that HE’S usually the actual recipient of in canon.

See, its not an obsession with canon that’s the reason for the disconnect between Dick Grayson fans and the takes favored by fans of most other characters.

Its the fact that the transformative energy of fanfiction, in his case, so often is utilized to give HIM reason to tackle the redemption arcs that OTHER characters owe HIM, but that so many of these fans don’t WANT to write their own faves being subjected to.....because they’re fans of these characters as heroes. They have no interest in reading or writing their favorite characters redeeming themselves for actions or behavior they personally don’t view as in character for them.

.....with the cognitive dissonant part in particular, being the way so many of these exact same fans turn around and express shock and bewilderment that Dick’s fans are simlarly uninterested in wanting to read nothing but their favorite character redeeming himself for actions or behavior we personally don’t view as in character for him....because it usually isn’t, according to the original stories BEFORE fanfic transforms him from victim of other beloved characters into victimizer of them instead.

And lol, many of us don’t actually want to see him as victim of other beloved heroes either! We’re in agreement there! Its why we come to fanfic instead of canon in the first place....to find stories where he’s not casually and regularly mistreated by other characters we like. But instead we usually only find stories that take everything people don’t want to see other characters doing to him, and making him do it to others. That’s not an improvement for us, lol! That’s just taking one problem and exchanging it for another.

Flipping the script to make Dick the victimizer instead of other characters only fixes things if the only concern is making sure those characters aren’t seen as victimizers.

The really annoying part is how so many people can be so clear and cognizant of not wanting this for their own faves....yet are surprised, dismissive and disdainful of Dick’s fans....expressing the EXACT SAME FEELINGS.....about our own fave.

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bigskydreaming · 4 years

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Okay, so reposted version of my take on how Titans treat Dick vs how the Batfam treats Dick, which can become a very easy ‘trap’ to fall into per se, off of my posts as much as anyone’s, given how critical I am of the Batfam in specific....but the danger there, IMO, is that relativity is never quite the solution it often appears to be, when we’re just looking for ‘better than what exists elsewhere’ but from the perspective of the END results, rather than the root of the issue causing things to...exist badly anywhere.

For instance, I’m fully in agreement with others that in terms of FREQUENCY this happens far less with the Titans than it does with the Batfam, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t still issues with how the Titans have been written interacting with Dick at his lowest. And this is why I think its always, always, always a self-defeating trap just even IN GENERAL, to fall into comparison/contrast paradigms when analyzing things like problematic behavior patterns: it ultimately does no good to examine whether or not another group is ‘better’ or ‘more frequently’ better at interacting with Dick in ways that aren’t as detrimental to him….not if they still DO have times where they interact with Dick in ways that are very much detrimental to him.

The real question, imo, is simply: what’s at the root of how and why characters interact with him in ways that are to his detriment? Because nothing ultimately gets addressed or dealt with when its simply made an issue of contention between two parties who AREN’T Dick themselves…..it simply creates an arbitrary ‘bar’ wherein anything ‘above’ this bar is okay because at least its not as bad as the behavior that fails to reach the bar elsewhere.

One specific word got me thinking along these lines in general, not even anything to do with any actual stated point, but rather purely just a circumstantial thing, as it jumpstarted a chain reaction of thoughts purely from the presence of that word choice. And that word was ‘coddling’ - again, if for no other reason than the fact I think it makes for a good segue to something we have a problem with as a society in general. I think a ton of us have a reluctance to give up on the idea that tough love is the be-all and end-all its so often deemed to be….because there’s this fixation on it that’s been kinda battered into most of us, largely just as a direct result of a kind of societal belief we have that anything LESS than tough love can often be construed as ‘coddling,’ ie indulgent. Enabling weakness. Validating someone’s self-expression that they DESERVE love and care rather than forceful ‘get over it’s’ with, well…..dismissal of that.

In Dick’s case in particular, I want to point out how insidiously this can end up pairing with the extremely pervasive takes we have throughout fandom, that Dick is exceptionally stubborn and prideful - where his insistence on independence and self-determination are so often turned into a flaw and a manifestation of ego rather than something he’s actually justified in leaning so heavily into.

Because this I believe is at the heart of the relative lack of sympathy fandom displays for Dick’s position even in the takes where he WAS originally fired from Robin, rather than quitting and leaving on his own. And here I want to bring things back to where I initially said it can be so dangerous to make analysis of problems with emotional interactions a matter of relativity, of ranking, rather than just examining the problem purely from an analytical focus on Dick himself, and what he NEEDS versus what he so often GETS.

Because our tendency in life and society to make things a matter of relativity, usually because that’s FUNCTIONALLY an ‘easier’ (or at least quicker) way to address issues….I think that’s the same thing that results in how many people view Dick as being just as much at fault for the estrangement between himself and Bruce in his early Nightwing years, if not more.

See, it goes like this:

Break the problem down into its bare components there:

Bruce and Dick are at odds and estranged due to Dick no longer being Robin.

Now, let’s go purely with a take where its 100% Bruce’s fault….let’s just say there’s no nuance here whatsoever - not actually in the interests of demonizing Bruce, lol, but purely in the name of spotlighting what a problem the thing I’m talking about here is.

Okay, so take one of the takes where Bruce fired Dick from a role and mantle Dick himself created from personal reasons largely unconnected from/uninspired by Bruce, that Bruce himself had ZERO rights over. And where then this was compounded by Bruce refusing to demonstrate any emotional vulnerability by asking Dick to stay or remain in his life despite what he’d done. As well as the injury he’d caused by doing something he had no right to and by overstepping ironically by doing the very same thing people usually offer up as his reason for NOT forging more definitive personal bonds between himself and Dick….inserting himself between Dick and his memorial tribute to his first family, and appropriating control of the Robin mantle as though it’d become something he had more rights to by mere virtue of Robin being Batman’s partner. And then add to that the insult added to injury by offering his new son Jason BOTH the one thing he’d never offered Dick - adoption - AND the one thing he’d TAKEN from Dick - Robin. All without ever a word of apology or a single attempt made to be the one reaching out to try and bridge the chasm HE’D created by his own actions and no one else’s.

Pretty definitively Bruce’s fault, right? There’s no way, shape or form any of that is actually Dick’s fault, those are all entirely Bruce’s actions and Bruce’s actions alone.

So we go back to the broken down problem:

Bruce and Dick are at odds and estranged due to Dick no longer being Robin.

And now we want to create a solution to that problem. How do you fix or even come close to fixing that? Well, the only possible way to fix a problem is by addressing the root of the problem….which in this case, is unilaterally, Bruce’s choices and decisions, and his lack of apology or accountability.

But here’s where most people swerve. For various reasons, whether its personal character preference or bias, or just an inability to imagine a scenario wherein Bruce DOES step up to fix things by MAKING an apology or ACCEPTING accountability, perhaps due to seeing that as unrealistic or hard to script in character, due to BRUCE’S innate pride and stubbornness….

For one reason or another, people shy away from ACTUALLY defaulting to this view of things in order to fix what Bruce broke, EVEN IN takes where Bruce definitively and 100% was the party responsible for breaking trust.

And instead, they become preoccupied with a DIFFERENT problem:

Bruce is unlikely or hard to imagine making that apology or accepting that blame….

Making that an ‘impossible’ fix to a problem that still needs fixing….Bruce and Dick at odds and estranged.

So suddenly, by sheer virtue of there only being two parties involved here, and one of them considered ‘useless’ in terms of ACTUALLY fixing that problem….attention gets shifted to Dick.

And now, because similarly the attention is also just on ‘how do we fix this’ and not ‘why does this need fixing’….Dick is offered up as a sacrificial solution. If he just ACCEPTS that he’s never going to get the apology and acknowledgment of accountability from Bruce that he deserves…..then voila, we still have a fix to the problem. So long as he just ‘gets over that’ or any need for that, and ends the estrangement regardless of never getting that….the problem still gets ‘fixed.’

And thus, with just a few mental moves, one problem has been entirely swapped out for another one, that’s literally only been CREATED because people refused to address the actual root of the problem.

Now, the new problem is that Dick is too stubborn, too prideful to just get over this and end the estrangement himself….because people prioritized the SOLUTION over the PROBLEM, and then decided that between the two, Bruce and Dick, Bruce is the LESS likely to ever be of use in acquiring some kind of solution or addressing the actual problem…..meaning that now, the onus for obtaining that desired solution falls upon the RELATIVELY MORE likely avenue for obtaining it….Dick just caving and accepting he’s never going to get this apology. And which in turn means that as long as Dick DOESN’T do this, or the longer it took Dick to do this…..the more the newly shifted blame lands on his shoulders and his alone….

Even though he never did anything wrong and his want/need there was always valid.

In essence, people have created a problem entirely from scratch, in order to explain the existence of an actual problem….that they refused to lay at the feet of the actual source of it…..wholly because they deemed that useless in ever ‘realistically’ obtaining a solution to that problem.

People put the burden of fixing a problem not on the source of it, but on the person they deemed more capable of fixing things…..and then blamed him for simply not wanting to do that because it was never his place or job or responsibility….to fix what he was himself the victim of.

And all of that comes about solely from prioritizing obtaining a solution over acknowledging a problem, and falling back on arbitrary parameters of relativity to obtain said solution.

So now bringing this back to the Titans AND the Batfam AND pretty much most other characters to revolve in and out of Dick’s life and storylines…..we often end up presented with characters written enacting the ‘solution’ of ‘tough love’ to a problem that….never really existed in the first place. Because so often the tough love gets trotted out in direct response to addressing ‘how stubborn/prideful/prone to digging his heels in’ Dick is, because there’s a tendency with people to approach the issues of problems Dick’s having….as though Dick himself is the problem. As if only he weren’t just so…him, so insistent on BEING ‘him’….the problem wouldn’t exist in the first place. Ergo, its his stubbornness that NEEDS addressing. That demands he not be coddled.

But the second we stop looking at Dick and what HE’S doing as the problem that needs fixing - ie being stubborn about something…..and we look at this behavior as his ATTEMPT at a SOLUTION to the actual problem HE’S facing…..someone or something trying to do something that Dick doesn’t want to go along with or doesn’t want them to do…..we shift the focus BACK. To that ACTUAL problem. The someone or something that’s trying to do something that Dick doesn’t want.

And here’s where we get to where as I’ve talked about before - I believe Dick DOES have control freak issues, absolutely….but that his reasons for having them differ dramatically from Bruce’s and other characters who have superficially similar tendencies. And in Dick’s case, those tendencies stem from his attempts to SOLVE the problem that is….him so rarely being allowed to have control over his own actual life.

Dick being stubborn isn’t the source of his issues. The source of his issues are his rapes, his repeated experiences being brainwashed and mind controlled and fucked with, the lack of power he’s afforded in his personal dynamics with even his own family and how often he’s just completely overruled or invalidated by even them…..

Ironically, for all that Dick IS an acknowledged control freak….this is not the actual problem. This is just a badly attempted solution that can not ever really address the problem….that is….his lack of control over so much of his life.

Because much like the only way you can really ever address or FIX the problem that is “Bruce and Dick are estranged because of what happened with Robin” by addressing the PROBLEM as being “Bruce’s actions and choices that created that estrangement, and his failure to act to end it”…..

You can similarly only ever really address or FIX the problem that is “Dick so rarely has control over his own life”….by….giving him more control over that.

Except of course, this is pretty much the exact opposite of what most people try and do whenever Dick is in crisis or struggling with personal issues. Part of the major central PROBLEMS in Dick’s life and narratives is the fact that going hand in hand with how rarely he has control over his own life….is how often others want to have control INSTEAD of him. Even many of the people closest to him, with the best of intentions, have these beliefs or images in their heads of what he NEEDS, what’s best for him….because they’re so rarely asking WHY independence and self-determination are SO important to him, WHAT the problem is that he so often and so readily trots those out as his go-to attempted solution or fix for.

They’re innately undervaluing the importance of this to him and the WHY of that importance, because it just doesn’t match up to the view they already have installed in their head of who he is, what that looks and acts like, and what his problems MIGHT be…..and the less they listen to what he’s actually saying and asking for by assuming it to be CONTRARY to what he actually ‘needs’ or signs of some kind of flaw on his part or even self-destructive…..all they’re doing is feeding back into that same central issue of prioritizing THEIR view of him and what he needs and what he should be acting like over his OWN view of all that.

With this only being compounded by the reality that….how could they POSSIBLY ever really know what he needs in the first place when….most of them don’t even know what the myriad traumas he’s struggling with are….ironically, because he’s been taught throughout his life to keep most of that to himself, because every time he DOES open up about stuff, peoples’ response is never to ASK what he needs from them or patiently wait for him to figure that out for himself, its just to….DECIDE they know now what the requisite solution is.

With this FURTHER compounded by the fact that so many of Dick’s traumas happen to exist as data points in a repeating pattern. His greatest hits keep hitting, over and over again. Even if he opens up about one rape, there’s more to tell. Even if he opens up about one time being mind controlled, there’s more to tell. Even if he opens up about one time he felt abandoned or rejected by family, there’s more to tell. So even when he STARTS to genuinely open up to people and turn to them for help…..any progress that might result in tends to get nipped in the bud the second a character hears about the FIRST issue and immediately thinks ah-hah, okay, NOW I get it, NOW I see what the problem is….and NOW I know what needs to be done….even though again, they just wind up right back where they started….where how could they POSSIBLY know what Dick actually needs when even now, they still only know one third of it or whatever, because they jumped the gun and couldn’t be patient with him or with letting him take the lead in determining what he NEEDED in order to fix or address his problems.

And round and round and round it goes.

Of course, this then begs the question of how then can they ever truly know what Dick needs, when Dick himself might not know it because he’s long since become an unreliable narrator of his own traumas and various issues?

The answer, IMO, comes from going back to the singular recurring root of so MANY of his traumas and problems….the lack of control, the refusal to allow him to self-determinate. I think its safe to call this his central issue by virtue of the fact its the issue that throughout the decades of his most consistent characterizations….its the issue he most frequently is shown pushing back against with his own personal attempt at finding a fix for what he views as his biggest problems. Dick’s biggest central theme in his life, his one big ask that he keeps asking for over and over from everyone he knows….is just to be allowed to be in charge of his own life. To be believed when he says HE knows what he wants to be, wants to do, what’s ACTUALLY best for him.

Because when you accept that as his biggest issue, and prioritize HIS preferred solution to it as the most pressing NEED of his that needs fulfilling…..suddenly it becomes a lot clearer how to address so many of his other issues. Because he’s already provided the blueprint for doing that, even when he otherwise is a temporarily unreliable narrator of his own issues and needs.

And that’s in who he is and how he treats OTHERS….when he’s at his best. His best being defined by ‘himself when granted fullest control over who he is and how he acts’….because if his central recurring issue is people getting in the WAY of this, people trying to superimpose their OWN view of him over this….then how can himself when at his most successful in addressing THIS real root issue be anything OTHER than himself, when….most ‘himself’?

And the thing is…..how we treat others when we’re EACH at our best….as in, when we have a full drawer of spoons available to us, when we aren’t being hindered or blocked by any personal issues or unknowing biases, when we’re treating people we care about in the way that to us is most IDEAL, while in a position and state of mind where we’re capable of acting upon our personally most idealized behavior….

How we treat people THEN, at THAT point….tends to bear a direct and distinct correlation to how we ideally want others to treat us at our WORST. As in, when we’re MOST in need or want of THEIR best or most idealized behavior or treatment of others.

So the answer to ‘what does Dick REALLY need when he’s struggling with various things or even self-destructive behavior’ IMO is never anything approaching tough love, but neither is it coddling….its simply…..to be treated by the people he cares about the same way he prioritizes treating the people he cares about when he’s at his most capable and most uninhindered on that front.

He basically draws people a map to it.

And yet….so rarely do we see anything remotely close to people treating Dick the way even some of his loudest detractors EXPECT him to consistently treat their own faves.

None of the sensitivity they take for granted when demanding it of his character, given that they’ll hold even one single insensitive thing said by him against him for years. None of the compassion and understanding that they demand he display towards others’ issues, even when they’re lashing out or reacting badly from a place of frustration or loss of control or self-destructive tendencies. Etc, etc.

Its no coincidence in my mind that the times Dick seems BEST capable of and willing to accept help from others, or MOST benefiting from others’ help….are the all too rare occasions when the help others offer him prioritizes letting HIM take the wheel in what happens and when….as well as consistently displaying the same kind of treatment Dick doles out to others in need of help when HE’S at his best and the one providing it.

But yeah, at the end of the day, for all my own ventposts about the Batfam of late, and all my own personal preferences for the Titans’ interactions with Dick….it can’t go unacknowledged IMO that there is unfortunately still a huge trend or history of them being written very poorly in this respect as well.

Which to me makes the most pressing question not WHO has the best track record of treating Dick better than others….

But why is there barely any track record at ALL, of even Dick’s closest friends and family treating him in the specific ways he’s expected to treat each of them at pretty much all times, regardless of what’s going on with him and his own issues of the moment?

The only way to truly address the problem of Dick having so little control over his own life…is to give him back control.

The only way to truly address the problem of so many people in Dick’s life having an agenda when it comes to him, even if that agenda is just getting him back to being or acting like the version of himself they’re most comfortable with….is to have no agenda other than just BEING there for him, whatever HE wants that to look like.

The only way to truly address the problem of so many people prioritizing their OWN view of what he should want or act like or think like or be like…..is to simply prioritize HIS OWN view of what he should want or act like or think like or be like.

And if the problem is what’s the best way for characters to interact with Dick when he’s going through his worst moments, when he might not even know what he needs or wants at that particular time…..IMO the only way to address this problem is to look at the problem as Dick not being able to be at his best……and prioritize treating Dick the same way he treats others when he IS at that point….rather than….unfortunately just often treating Dick the way OTHERS already tend to treat him that….so often results in him being at his worst….aka The King of Tough Love’s too-often approach to ‘helping’ his eldest in various ways.

Etc, etc.

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bigskydreaming · 5 years

Text

Dick is abused by Bruce in canon.

Fandom: ...yeah but not really though, I mean its not like the times with Jason or Tim, now you wanna talk abusive, let’s talk about those....

Dick dies in canon.

Fandom: ...yeah but not really though, I mean it was only for a couple of minutes, its not like the times with Jason or Damian, now you wanna talk death trauma, let’s talk about those.....

Dick was fired as Robin after being shot, with Bruce taking away the name and mantle he’d created to honor his first family.

Fandom: ....yeah, not really though. I mean, its not like that time with Jason replaced by Tim or Tim replaced by Damian, and c’mon, the being fired thing is really only a retcon that didn’t even need to happen, now you wanna talk being fired or replaced or wronged, let’s talk about those....

Dick grows up being subjected to constant racism and classism from Gotham’s upper class.

Fandom: ....eh, still seems like a spoiled rich kid to me. I mean its not like as bad as Jason had it, now you wanna talk tough time growing up with Bruce, let’s talk about him....

Dick is shot in the head and gets amnesia.

Fandom: ...yeah, but not really digging his personality changes, tbh....

Dick is brainwashed and psychologically manipulated and controlled.

Fandom: ....okay but did he have to be such an asshole about it though?

Dick is lost and grieving when believing his father dead, and forced to shoulder impossible burdens and expectations with no clear solution and usually with conflicting expectations heaped on him by multiple different parties he feels responsible for.

Fandom: .....okay but Tim was more hurt and grieving and also why didn’t Dick believe him tho.....

Dick has lost countless friends who’ve died over the years, not all of whom have been brought back to life some way or another.

Fandom: .....I mean, who hasn’t, am I right?

Dick watched his parents die right in front of him.

Fandom: ....okay but at least he had parents who loved him, Jason and Tim and Cass didn’t even have that much!

Dick was thrown into juvie by the very system that was supposed to protect him.

Fandom: ....sure, if you wanna insist on going with the one super angsty take that tbh doesn’t seem all that believable, compared to his siblings’ super realism based origins....

Dick was kicked out or driven away by Bruce at multiple times, in multiple continuities.

Fandom: ....sure, if you wanna insist on going with the two or three super angsty takes on years worth of continuity, but gotta say, seems like you just got a hard on for the dude suffering....

Dick spent months passively suicidal, eventually getting more and more reckless and seemingly with a death wish.

Fandom: ....okay but its like his dad said when dishing out the tough love, he lost sight of the value of his own life and wtf dude, that’s not cool.

Dick saw his circus burned down, everyone in his apartment building killed, a woman shot in the head just for sitting across from him, all simply because these innocent people crossed his path, and him feeling guilty and responsible for each of their deaths because of this.

Fandom: ...yeah but wasn’t it kinda a little bit his fault? I mean, if he didn’t exist, they wouldn’t have died, y’know?

Dick found out that his direct ancestor is an undead assassin for a secret society intent on ruling Gotham from the shadows, and that he was intended by them to be another of their tools since before he was even born, and the circus he loves and remembers fondly from growing up there was complicit in the conspiracy to force him into a life of servitude to the Court of Owls as their personal assassin.

Fandom: ....ugh I just hate how everyone always makes a big deal about Dick Grayson, like he’s gotta be the most special ever, eww.

Dick was battered and guilt tripped by his father into going undercover away from his family for a year immediately following his death and revival, with the rest of his family believing him dead and blaming him for this upon his return.

Fandom: ....like we’re supposed to feel bad for a guy who faked his death and made his family all mourn him while he was off playing James Bond? Pfft.

Dick has lost siblings at various points and grieved for them over extended periods, being extremely affected by their deaths.

Fandom: ...umm, he literally hated Jason though, according to the fact that we said so, and yeah he was sad about Damian dying but then he faked his death so we had to stop caring because fuck that guy.

Dick has struggled with abandonment issues, fear of disappointing Bruce and other related issues, such as his own ongoing battle with people trying to make him into a killer and his own repeated struggle with whether or not he believes its never justified, such as when he killed the Joker.

Fandom: ....that didn’t count, though.

Dick was tortured on multiple occasions, almost to the point of death.

Fandom: ...source?

Dick was left to fend for himself in multiple instances where he’d been there for his family in similar situations.

Fandom: .....mmmm, sounds fake.

Dick was estranged from Bruce for years after being fired, and again after Jason died, with Bruce never reaching out or apologizing in either instance and their estrangement only ending when Dick extended the olive branch and came back.

Fandom: ...oh boohoo. Drama queen.

Dick had to find out from the news that Bruce adopted another kid and also gave him Dick’s mantle, as well as find out from computer files that his brother died, because Bruce never deemed it necessary to inform him of any of these things.

Fandom: ...jeez Dick, sometimes, things aren’t about you. What a narcissist.

Dick’s entire city is blown up by supervillains.

Fandom: .....uh, pretty sure we’d remember that happening.

Dick’s subjected to constant sexual harassment by Dr. Netz while working for Spyral.

Fandom: ....didn’t see it. Sorry. Was busy laughing at Dr. Netz’s jokes about sexually harassing Dick. Look, they were funny, okay?

Dick was raped, not once but twice.

Fandom: .....ALRIGHT! NOW we’re talking! Tell me more, I mean, fuck, that’s so sad and tragic, I wanna know all the details. Who was it, why did they do it, how many times, did Jason kill them like the good brother he is or was it traumatizing for Tim and Damian to learn that the brother they looked up to was subjected to something like this? DETAILS, MAN, DETAILS.

Dick is frequently written as the focal point of fics wherein a villain graphically rapes him in addition to the rapes he endured in canon, but in far more specific and traumatizing ways and with the vast majority of fics having this villain be male and in a vast majority of those fics, the rapes rendered in ways that are sexually gratifying and titillating even in scenes emphasizing the emotional devastation the actual actions inflict on Dick.

Fandom: ....not sure I see the issue, bro.

Me: One of these things is not like the others.

Fandom: ....still not seeing it.

Me: Its almost like there’s only one specific kind of trauma many of you are willing to consider Dick an actual victim for suffering....

Fandom: ....okay but its not our fault literally none of the other things count.

Me: .....and the way many people write this specific kind of trauma being inflicted on him in particular, lends the impression that even here its still not about sympathizing with him so much as enjoying the acts inflicted on him and the emotional distress they cause him.

Fandom: ....nah. LOL.

#rape cw

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bigskydreaming · 5 years

Text

One thing I never really see come up in the discussions about Dick not having wanted Bruce to be his father....

Like, there’s a reason kids orphaned at ten years old aren’t typically given the final say on what the rest of their life looks like from there.

They’re still kids.

No, this doesn’t mean what they want shouldn’t matter (far more than its typically allowed to within our fucked up system, that’s for sure).

But what it does mean is......anybody who fosters or adopts kids who are separated from their first families for whatever reason, is supposed to be aware of the reality that....KIDS CHANGE THEIR MINDS.

We’re talking about a person’s formative years here. Kids this age don’t typically know WHAT they want yet, even WITHOUT the overhanging influence of some huge tragedy or trauma, mixed in as well.

And they’re not supposed to. They shouldn’t be expected to.

I mean, how often do people hold you to things you say when you’re ten or twelve, no matter how much conviction you say it with? Let alone in the wake of serious emotional upheaval? What kid from a loving home is going to be ready let alone eager to see a new face occupying the picture they normally hold in their head when they think “dad”? Do children of divorce who have a parent remarry typically seem in a rush to call the new step-parent in their life by the title someone else already holds? Does this mean those children never end up calling their step-parent Dad or Mom....even while still having another person they call by that name?

No, I’m not suggesting that Bruce should have told a ten year old, grieving Dick Grayson “you may not want another father now, but I know what you’ll ultimately want better than you, so I’m going to adopt you and you’re going to like it.”

I’m just saying.....even if you go with the idea that Dick said this, early on when living with Bruce.....Bruce should have made this a topic to be revisited in a couple of years, to make sure that was still what Dick wanted. And yes, it should be on the parent or guardian to take the initiative here, because children who wind up in second homes with pre-existing reasons for not always being entirely certain of how stable their position there is....like, realistically, understandably....they’re NOT going to be the ones to broach these topics themselves.

And they should never be expected to be! Very few kids are going to have the surety to say “I know we’ve never really talked about this before but I would really like to be adopted,” and not feel super fucking presumptuous...even WITHOUT having the kinds of abandonment issues and insecurities Dick canonically has.

So I’m always going to maintain its a mistake to go with this take and attribute it to Dick’s wants and desires....based on something he expressed relatively early on in the grieving process and the early stages of his relationship with Bruce. Because inevitably, given many of his later insecurities and issues with Bruce, it becomes a kind of victim-blaming where its like, well if you wanted to be adopted, you shouldn’t have said otherwise.

(Never mind again that time in the 80s after Jason was adopted and Bruce and Dick were at a gala talking about it and why Bruce had never adopted Dick, and like....it was made ABUNDANTLY clear this was a want of Dick’s, and yet it was almost twenty years in real time and about four or five in comic book time before Bruce got around to it for some reason BUT I DIGRESS).

*Shrugs* Anyway, yeah. IMO its absolutely valid for Dick to express this when he’s nine or ten or even twelve, and its absolutely a good thing for Bruce to respect and honor this, regardless of whether it matches his own wants for what he wants his and Dick’s relationship to be.

The problem only lies in treating that like it was or should be the final word on the matter.

At the very least, its reasonable to expect Bruce to bring up the topic again a year or two later, after Dick’s had time to acclimate to his new environment, and not even need to make it a question that Dick has to answer now or even ever, but to simply like....express that there are options there, if Dick ever wants them. It really can be that simple. All it takes is Bruce making a point to make Dick aware that Bruce is open to whatever Dick wants, if Dick ever DOES want to change the nature of their relationship in any way, whether he wants to talk about adoption or changing the way they refer to each other to something more like “Dad” and “son” or even just if Dick wants to talk about what it might look like for them to still have a family relationship after he’s eighteen, if Dick still doesn’t want it to be as official as something like adoption but still would like to know that they have some solid connection or tie past that point...

(Like, so Dick never has to wonder when he’s fourteen or fifteen what’s going to happen after he turns eighteen if he’s not ‘really’ Bruce’s son. Is Dick expected to move out then, would it be weird for Dick to still just drop by whenever he’s in the mood, is that even okay....like, this is stuff that foster kids actually wonder about A LOT because like.....outside of adoption, most legal arrangements dissolve the second a kid turns eighteen and that means there is NO CERTAINTY in any of these kids’ lives past that point....unless someone makes sure to GIVE THEM a sense of certainty in something specific, something they can picture...yet this is also something I’ve never seen touched on in fanfics, when it almost certainly has to be something Dick thought or worried about at some point, given how much of their estrangement after he moved out in canon WAS rooted in mutual uncertainty as to what they even were to each other at this point.)

And if Bruce is afraid to have that conversation with Dick himself because he doesn’t want Dick to feel pressured at all, is worried about guilting Dick into asking for an adoption he doesn’t really want just because Dick thinks its what Bruce wants.....that’s actually not unreasonable either, but I mean, you know what else Bruce has? A best friend who’s a child of adoption, and whose experiences might not be interchangeable with Dick’s, but at least knows far better than Bruce what its like to have conflicting feelings about two sets of parents and guilt over maybe feeling like you’re abandoning one set by putting more focus on the other.

And if Bruce asks Clark to casually bring up this sort of conversation with Dick, at least Clark will be able to give Dick encouragement to open up to Bruce about this if he does have things he wants to say there, without the conversation itself making Dick feel pressured to go in any specific direction.

The point is, Bruce has options, and resources, and tons of different ways he can approach all this, while Dick is only ever going to have the blunt, straight forward approach with no guarantee of what answer he’ll get, especially if he worries he’s already made Bruce feel like he ‘rejected’ the idea of having Bruce be his father once.

And most importantly.....Dick, like any child in this kind of situation....

IS ALWAYS GOING TO BE THE ONE WHO HAS MORE TO LOSE.

If the answer isn’t what he hopes or wanted to hear. If the asking itself ends up destabilizing their relationship or his environment.

THE KID WHO HAD TO BE WELCOMED INTO THE HOME IS ALWAYS GOING TO HAVE MORE AT RISK THAN THE PERSON WHO OPENED UP THEIR HOME AND IS NOT OBLIGATED TO DO ANY MORE THAN THAT.

Like. That’s just how it is. That’s just the reality.

So....there’s no excuse for putting the weight of all that, all the expectations and deliberations that are involved in something this emotionally charged and complicated and with such myriad possible ramifications....

On just the once-voiced statement of a grieving ten year old. And with it to never be brought up again unless that same kid decides to some day ask “hey, you know how I said I didn’t want you to be my Dad once, well I changed my mind, can you be my Dad now?”

Like, that’s just not reasonable.

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bigskydreaming · 5 years

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Ok, but how would you writte a court of owls and a dick grayson fanfic, focusing on the abduction too, after all the traumas that being destained to be a talon could carry with?, just imagine dick noticing his family could have known this, and then boom, someway the court makes his way to dick core, bat fam have to fighthim, but focusing in all those conflicts and not only the fights

LOL I have a few different Court of Owls’ ideas running through my head at any given time, but for various reasons, some of which I can’t even identify, they almost always tend to be AUs of some kind, where I also play around with different takes on the family dynamics or how the family comes together in the first place. I have no clue why that particular plot point, the Court, tends to pair itself with unorthodox Batfam takes in my head, tbh. It just does.

As an example, the one I’ve come back to the most often and most recently when fiddling around with various WIPs when the chaos of my life these days allows for it, lol.....its called “Where Last We Left Off” and it goes AU from general pre Flashpoint comic book continuity when Dick is still Robin, around fourteen or so. Long enough into his time living with Bruce that they’ve reached a point of considering each other father and son, even if neither is saying as such yet, and past the point where the Titans first formed and and even after Kory first came to Earth, so Dick has well established friendships with Garth, Roy, Wally, Donna, Lilith and Kory at least.

So in it, I set up an initial prelude and then there’s a time skip to five years later, where all the actual fic takes place. My premise is basically that Batman has been operating in Gotham for about seven years by the prelude, Batman and Robin about four or five, and its only in the last couple of years that Batman’s started coordinating more consistently and officially with other heroes as a member of the Justice League. And the point of departure happens when the Court uncovers Batman and Robin’s secret identities while trying to rid themselves of Batman’s interference in their operations even though he’s not aware of them just yet. When they realize that Robin is none other than their intended Gray Son, they decide to try and kill two birds with one stone.

Cue Dick’s abduction, but with a twist. Rather than make him a Talon and subject him to the Talonization process or whatever that’s called, and employ brainwashing or mind control techniques to control him, they make themselves known to Bruce as the ones who took Dick, give him a taste of what the Talons are capable of and make sure he gets a good look at the changes to their physiologies and mental states, and then they make their demands. They won’t subject Dick to any of that.....so long as Bruce agrees to hang up his cape and cowl, and cease all vigilantism and contact with other heroes. They give him forty eight hours to make his decision, and leave him with the body of one of their Talons to ‘study’...in essence, making both an example of how little they care for their tools and think nothing of disposing of one, and to give Bruce more information than he really wants at the moment of all the kinds of things that Talon was subjected to in the ‘making’ of him.

Unable to find a hint of where they took Dick before the deadline, even when Bruce calls in Clark, Barry and a few others for help searching, Bruce ultimately agrees to their demands and ceases all activity as Batman in exchange for the occasional proof of life demonstrating that the Court are holding up their end of the bargain. If they see even a hint of vigilantism or working with other heroes, they warn, they’ll have no further use for Dick except as just another of their Talons.

Heartsick and with no real idea how to spend his days at first, or inclination to put much thought into coming up with ideas for that, as well as refusing to even speak with Clark and the others, let alone Dick’s friends, at the risk of that being overseen or heard and deemed ‘working with other heroes,’ Bruce ultimately funnels most of his time and energy into charity works and projects mostly born of idle ideas he remembers Dick mentioning every now and then, when complaining about how stupid the way certain things worked or skewering various flaws in the typical upper class reasonings of people he was expected to converse with at various galas....and then venting to Bruce all the way home.

Eventually, Bruce meets Jason in a different way than in canon, but still takes him in. Not to replace Dick of course, or because he’s given up on him (if he ever did that, after all, there’d be no reason for him not to go back out as Batman). But rather just because he has to do something, and the thought of caring for Jason and trying to be for him what he was for Dick, or at least hoped he’d been, it sparks the first real motivation he’s had since the abduction. The one thing he can’t bring himself to regret is taking Dick in, even as he blames himself for thinking so selfishly, since if he hadn’t done that, this would never have happened to Dick (not knowing yet that the Court was always intent on getting their hooks into Dick whether he was in the equation or not). But the point is, he can’t honestly say he wishes he’d never taken Dick in, even as selfish as he feels for that, so he doesn’t let his misgivings keep him from following his instincts with Jason, telling himself it’ll be different since he’s not Batman anymore. (Bottom line being his choice with Jason is still about Jason, not just as a proxy for Dick or anything).

Not all that long after, different events than canon result in him taking Tim in as well (with Tim not aware of his past as Batman at this point in this AU, since I’m positing that Dick was abducted before Tim happened to see Robin doing the flip that let him connect the necessary dots there). And not long after that, Bruce takes in Duke as well, and then finally, about a year before the five year time skip to present day, he takes in Cassandra, due to Barbara’s influence.

Babs has one of the bigger divergences in this AU, as I’m switching things around a little specifically to set Dick’s abduction at just before Babs becomes Batgirl. So she’s not really one of his friends at this point in life, and she sets out to become Batgirl pretty much right after Bruce hangs up the cape. Unable to even confront Batgirl as himself, lest the Court see that as an attempted return to vigilantism, but paranoid that they might view Batgirl as his attempt to work via a proxy, Bruce does a most un-Brucely thing....he anonymously tips off the Commissioner about his daughter’s vigilantism, and Jim Gordon puts a stop to that by unapologetically even playing the guilt trip card to keep his daughter from risking her life night after night. So Batgirl retires almost as soon as she begins, but that doesn’t mean Babs is out of the game by a longshot.

A big part of the reason for that divergence is I’ve always felt that Babs was going to become Oracle one way or another, no matter what road she took there, and although I love her as Batgirl, I don’t view it as fundamentally essential to her overall character as other early personas of other superheroes are. And despite the Bat theme, Barbara has never been dependent on Bruce either for guidance or resources, let alone validation......so I wanted to play around with what happens if you cut the Batgirl portion of Barbara’s life out of the picture completely.

So basically, she just starts becoming Oracle even earlier. She promised her dad she wouldn’t risk her life on the streets in a cape and a mask. She made no such promises about putting her computer skills to use for the greater good, in whatever ways she deems most efficient. Which ultimately leads to her working as a superhero information broker for a growing number of vigilantes who have no idea their cyber eyes and ears isn’t even quite of legal drinking age just yet, and from there, forming the Birds of Prey as satellite agents for missions she directs them towards in a Charlie’s Angels kind of way, where she’s just the voice on the radio so to speak. One of those missions results in Dinah, Helena and a couple others crossing paths with Cassandra, who returns with them to the States. She’s still just a teenager though, younger than when she first crossed paths with the Batfam in canon, only about thirteen here. And the Birds don’t think any of them themselves have the kind of home and stability they all agree she deserves, so they ask the ever mysterious Oracle if she knows of anyone....not realizing just yet that said Oracle is barely a decade older than Cassandra herself at this point. But the Oracle knows all...so she has an idea.

Bruce, being the Walking Guilt Complex that he is, felt shitty about interfering in her attempts at vigilantism even as much as he believes he made the right choice there. So after he adopts Jason, he contrived an excuse to hire Barbara in specific to be Jason’s tutor and catch him up to speed before he went back to school, so he’d have reason to allow Babs to become a regular presence at the Manor, and an excuse for him to help her out any way she might need or want. Not that she ever took him up on this, which frustrates him to no end, cuz can’t a billionaire just assuage his guilt complex in peace already, damn. But regardless, between Jason, Tim and Duke, she’s become a regular fixture at Wayne Manor over the years, even though for the opposite reasons as Bruce initially ‘hired’ her. After all, all three boys are basically geniuses in their own respective fashions, so its not like they need tutoring in the conventional sense once they caught up to speed in whatever ways they needed.

Rather, Babs is their tutor specifically in the areas of ‘making sure they don’t get so bored with their schooling, they turn to blowing things up and/or world domination as a hobby’. Basically, an overachieving perfectionist know-it-all hired to help three overachieving perfectionist know-it-all kids reach their full academic potential unhindered by their conventional schooling, which at this point is basically just something that Bruce insists on so the boys get regular social interaction, while Babs concocts their actual curriculums that actually interest them and they do on their own time.

Anyway, so while seeking a placement for Cass that Babs thinks is deserving of her, she ultimately thinks of Bruce, and calls in that favor, albeit in a most unconventional sense. Babs doesn’t know Bruce was Batman at this point either, given how effectively he covered his tracks when he hung up the cape and how pointedly he’s kept away from all vigilantism since....but she knows each of his three boys have very different backgrounds and had trouble adjusting at first because of various issues...all of which Bruce spared no expense in addressing, more in terms of his own direct focus and parenting rather than fiscally. He’s a good dad, here, a great dad, since he’s basically poured all the energy and drive he once devoted to vigilantism to what he now feels he should have focused it on instead....being the father he wished he’d been to Dick and wasn’t going to make the mistake of not being now.

All of which makes Babs think that he might not only be willing to take in Cassandra, but that he might be the best one for her. And so after a lot of cloak and dagger obscurity that would be completely unnecessary if all the parties in question knew all the relevant information about each other, Cassandra ends up at Wayne Manor too.

All of this is essentially backstory for the in between time between the prelude and the actual fic, unveiled and doled out via information conveyed in the present day. But where the actual fic begins, Bruce is committed to being Superdad to Jason, Tim, Duke and Cass, none of whom know he was Batman or the true nature of what happened to their mysterious elder brother who according to the news and what little Bruce and Alfred are willing to say, was abducted years ago with no attempt made to seek a ransom and no idea who did it or why.

Meanwhile, the kids have their own secrets, as Cass has been sneaking out into the city at night and stopping petty crimes and running into some girl in a purple hoodie who calls herself Spoiler. Tim’s preoccupied with a longtime personal quest of his....figure out who the elusive Oracle, all-knowing master of the cyberways is, and in doing so perhaps win their approval and mentorship. And Duke’s metahuman abilities have recently begun manifesting, and Jason ends up helping him test them and figure out what all he can do (after Jason catches Duke in the act of practicing his ghost vision and Duke has to convince him he’s not crazy and nobody needs to tell Bruce).

And that in turn leads to Duke exploring the house with aid of his powers, trying to learn more about the mysterious missing eldest, and Jason distracting him every five seconds by whispering “what do you see now,” because Jason has also long been endlessly entranced by the mystery of Dick Grayson, and also, Jason has no chill.

With all of the above being the dynamic in existence in ‘present day’....when Dick escapes the Court and returns home.

So the story itself is all about Dick trying to deal with the aftermath of everything that happened to him while the Court’s hostage, and everything that didn’t happen to him and that he missed out on, coming in at the eleventh hour to a family that’s now almost fully formed all in his absence....with a seat at the table that’s been reserved for him the whole time, but with him uncertain as to where and how he fits in all of this.

All while being as cryptic about things as possible, because the one and only thing he and Bruce seem able to agree on, after their bittersweet reunion that doesn’t go how either of them ever imagined it....is to keep the other kids out of all this by any means necessary. Upon learning that Bruce hasn’t been Batman in years and the others know nothing about any of this, Dick’s firm on believing they should keep it that way as he doesn’t even know them yet, but he does know he isn’t willing to risk anything like what happened to him happening to any other child, related to him or not. And Bruce is perhaps too willing to accommodate Dick on this because he still feels this is all his fault, and telling the others everything would mean admitting to them what a terrible father he once was.

Which, he wasn’t, is the thing. One of the many things Dick’s struggling to reconcile now, because just like in the comics, Dick’s early years with Bruce were good more often than they were bad. He realizes upon seeing how easily the other kids interact with Bruce in a parent and child way that this is something he’s envious of, and in hindsight wanted even before he was kidnapped, but now he doesn’t know how to voice that or his fear that that Bruce would only be willing to offer that to him now out of guilt, that if he’d really wanted that kind of relationship with Dick, they would have had it before he disappeared.

Add to that the fact that Dick can’t make up his mind whether he’s grateful and touched that Bruce gave up being Batman just for the chance it might keep him safe from the fate of the Court’s Talons.....because sometimes, Dick resents it deeply...or not resents, per se, but more that he didn’t know the specifics of what was going on in the outside world beyond where the Court kept him, or that they’d made Bruce give up being Batman....so finding that out upon escaping is messing with his head more than he expected, and now he can’t help but feel aware of all the people over the years that could have been helped by Batman but weren’t, because of Dick. Basically, the Son of the Walking Guilt Complex, aka Walking Guilt Complex Jr., is blaming himself and his getting kidnapped, for being the reason Bruce isn’t a superhero anymore.

Meanwhile, it was not a good idea to keep all of this hush hush, if for no other reason than that its impossible to recover from a life-changing ordeal like this at home, when that home is filled with four other people you and two others are all committed to keeping the full details of what happened a secret from. Its not at all the homecoming Dick was picturing and had dreamed of, and he catches himself at times feeling resentful of the others for being there at all, before feeling guilty because the truth is he really is glad that Bruce took them all in and has been good for them, that he still found a way to help people and be true to himself even without being Batman.

There’s other stuff involved too, like the fact that Dick is still keeping things from even Bruce, like everything that happened to him in the Court, because a) he doesn’t want to talk about it, b) he’s afraid of the guilt spiral it’ll send Bruce into, to know that all this time he’d done everything he could to keep Dick safe by giving the Court no reason to break their word....when they never actually made any promise not to try and break Dick by methods not part of their usual Talon process, and c) he doesn’t want to talk about it.

And of course, all his old friends and teammates desperately want to see him and reconnect with him, which he fluctuates between wishing it was easier to explain who they were and have them around without risking their own identities with his new siblings.....and being grateful that keeping the Big Secret from said siblings meant they could only be around so much (like Clark and Diana, etc, who now simply would not be kept away period)....because like with Bruce, Dick is having trouble coming to terms with how much they’ve all changed while he was gone and how much he’s changed, and what this means for them all and how they even FIT now, if they even do at all.

All of which ultimately builds to Dick sneaking out at night to return to vigilantism himself, which makes Bruce throw an epic freakout when he finds out because he only just got Dick back and is not about to risk losing him again. And with Dick trying to convey that he NEEDS this, now perhaps even more than he ever did before, because its the only thing he knows, the only thing that feels familiar, feels right at this point, while everything else is confusing as hell. And even more than that, he needs it in order to feel like the last five years haven’t cost him everything, that they haven’t...’ruined’ him, because what’s the point of him even being home if he’s just as lost and confused as ever and he can’t even save people, do the one thing that’s always made all the shit he’s ever been through feel worthwhile, like it means something?

He needs it, he can’t give this up forever just because something terrible happened one time, that probably would have happened in some form even if he hadn’t been a hero, given what he found out from the Court about his family line. And he’s not wrong to feel that way, is the problem, much like its a problem that Bruce isn’t wrong to feel that if nothing else, its too soon for Dick to be doing this again, and he hasn’t remotely handled any of the many issues weighing on him and the trauma he’s still unwilling to address.

And it doesn’t help that all the while, Bruce has been wrestling with his own uncertainty as to whether to go back to being Batman now that Dick’s safe again and the combined might of the Justice League and Titans have followed his escape route back to the Court and come down on it with extreme zeal. Or whether he even wants to, anymore, if he can justify the risks it includes while now a father in truth not just to Dick but four other kids too (and yes, Damian exists in this AU, he’s just not here yet). He doesn’t want to leave any of his kids without a father, and even more than that, he doesn’t want any of the others following in his and Dick’s footsteps, which also plays a factor in freaking out at Dick’s quick return to a mask.

But he can’t deny that he does miss it too, and more importantly, he misses the way he and Dick used to understand each other without a word, in perfect sync as they swung over the city together. He can’t help but feel like it would be so much easier for him and Dick to understand each other, communicate with each other, if they were back on the same page even if just for one night for old time’s sake. And also he worries about Dick maybe growing to resent his siblings if he feels like they’re the only reason he won’t go back to being Batman, he won’t let there ever be a Batman and Robin again....which then startles him into worrying that on some level he’s afraid of growing to resent his other kids for being the reason not to do that. And around and around and around it goes.

And then the other kids figure it out in their own ways and everything really blows up.

And its hard and messy and painful and nothing short or easily fixed. And there are no good choices or easy choices or right choices. Just a lot of good people trying to make the most good come out of the most bad, and not a clue what that actually means or looks like, let alone how to go about it.

Ultimately, its Dick at age 19, coming of age in the most unconventional of ways, trying to figure out who he is and who he wants to be after everything that’s happened, and dragging his whole family along for the ride as they’re all forced to ask the same question and then compare notes and hope that even if they’re not all on the same page, they’re all at least somewhere to be found in the same book.

Its about how you can’t go home again....even when home is exactly where you left it, and everything looks exactly the same but everything is different and nothing and no one will ever be the same ever again.

But that doesn’t mean the trek isn’t worth making, because sometimes the only way to make it forward to who you want to be now....is to first go back to where you last were when last you trusted who you were and what you wanted. So you can make your peace with leaving that road untraveled before finding your new direction and setting forth on that road instead.

*Shrugs* So yeah, that’s my ideal Court of Owls related fic. “Where Last We Left Off.”

Not quite the kind of fic you were describing, lol, but I do seem to insist on being unconventional with my takes, lmao.

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bigskydreaming · 5 years

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You often saya you think bruce is a good dad in young justice, so i'm curious, how do you think Dick decided to become Nightwing? And how do you think his relationship with jason was like??

I do think Bruce is a much better dad (consistently) and has a much stronger relationship with Dick than in the comics. At least for the age Dick is for the second and third season, which corresponds to when Dick and Bruce had their most strained relationship in the comics.

To be honest, I credit a lot of that to the fact that even though there certainly are times in the comics where I really like Bruce….I think he’s pretty much always portrayed better in the animated adaptations. I think that has a lot to do with the audience the cartoons are written towards…..obviously, many, many adults have enjoyed the various cartoons as well, but there’s no denying that they’re meant to appeal to younger audiences in particular. So, there’s a concerted effort on the part of the writers to well, write a more kid-friendly Batman than the grim and gritty figure so many comic book writers are obsessed with keeping him as, without variation.

Note….this doesn’t mean that Bruce can’t ever be (and isn’t ever) those things in the various cartoons. He’s still a dour, cynical, dark figure compared to most of his teammates in various adaptations….but there are degrees to that sort of thing, and ways to pull off those personality traits that aren’t so inherently alienating to audiences and as often prone to violence or conflict with his own family as many comic book writers make them.

I think the key difference is a lot of comic book writers, especially in the last couple decades, prioritize pushing Bruce to various extremes and ‘exploring’ the limits of what a hero is, and how far you can go while still being termed an actual hero or even a good man. Compare this to the cartoons, where most of them, even when emphasizing Bruce’s more antisocial traits, never go anywhere near the worst territory in the comics…because the cartoons still remain cognizant of the need to keep Bruce….a hero in the eyes of children as well.

And the way he’s written in the comics, at least lately, just…isn’t that.

Anyway, point being, I think he and Dick have a lot less conflict in the YJ universe, and in how I headcanon and write them there, though that doesn’t mean its always smooth sailing. I personally always go with a take that in that universe Bruce adopted Dick while he was still living at home, somewhere around twelve or thirteen maybe, after he’d been living with Bruce for three or four years. There’s nothing really in YJ continuity that contradicts that, and there’s no storylines predicated on conflict over him not being adopted, so there’s no reason in my mind not to have him adopted fairly early on and give him a more secure grounding in his relationship with Bruce in that continuity.

So as a result, even though I think due to certain core differences, there was always going to be some conflict between Bruce and Dick as the latter got older, due primarily to Dick’s need for independence and self-agency and Bruce’s issues with only feeling secure with having a measure of control over situations and thus struggling with Dick moving towards more autonomy in his life as for Bruce that correlates to it being harder to protect him….

Like, I think that was still a thing in the YJ universe, but due to Dick feeling more secure in his place in Bruce’s eyes and family, and Bruce feeling equally secure due to Dick having accepted his offer of adoption and expressing that he doesn’t really want to ever not be a part of Bruce’s family even if he’s not living at home anymore or even in Gotham….I think that’s really all that’s needed to keep things from ever getting TOO bad between them.

Then however, there’s things with Jason - one thing that’s always had me really eager to see them get to Jason’s story in YJ is that for years, Weisman has mentioned in passing that in that universe Dick and Jason were very close before Jason’s death. Which of course, is like catnip for me. LOL. So I tend to headcanon that Jason was adopted not long after coming to live with Bruce, but there was no conflict or insecurity or even reason for those things between the brothers and Dick and Jason became close pretty early on.

And so personally, I headcanon that Jason was a large part of the reason for Dick’s transition to Nightwing….I think he was already organically feeling that Robin, as he’d put so much effort into making a symbol during his own time in that mantle, like….no longer quite fit him or who he wanted to be as a hero, specifically, as he grew older. And that perhaps Dick wanted Robin to remain associated with Batman, his father, in a way that it might eventually come to no longer be associated with Bruce if Dick had stayed Robin even after moving away to another city and becoming more strongly associated with that city.

And IMO Jason was always going to want to go the Robin route himself, not just to be like Dick or whatever but just because Jason is very proactive and action minded, and while I don’t think either Bruce or Dick would have encouraged it or pushed him towards it, like….my view of Jason is that he was never going to be okay with sitting at home safe and secure when his father and brother were out on the streets fighting supervillains and risking their lives to protect people. He was always going to want to be part of that, IMO, and I think upon recognizing this inevitability, Dick (like he did in the pre-Crisis comics) is the one that actually gave Robin to Jason in the YJ universe, with his blessing, and then he took up the Nightwing mantle for his pre-Crisis reasonings - the hero he shifts into becoming as Nightwing was in his eyes a result of being inspired by Bruce, Clark and his first father in various ways.

However, there are drawbacks to this of course, when Jason dies….because due to having given Robin to his brother himself, Dick inevitably feels a lot more responsible and guilt-stricken here, like if he hadn’t done that this would never have happened - even though, as I said, Dick ultimately only gave Robin to Jason because he was sure Jason was determined to go the vigilante route with or without anyone else’s blessing, and so with that in mind it only made sense to offer him Robin and enable Jason to carry on in a family tradition at the same time.

So Dick, in my YJ headcanons and writing, distances himself from Bruce, Gotham and pretty much everyone in the wake of Jason’s death, because of his guilt and his unwillingness to let anyone like, pardon him for that guilt or tell him its undeserved. Because Dick is only 19 in Season 2 and was 14 in S1, I headcanon Jason as not being five years younger than him the way I view them as being in the comics….rather I bump Jason up a couple years so he and Dick are only about three years apart, and go with the idea that Dick was fifteen when Jason was adopted at age twelve by Bruce, which is about how old he was when taken in by Bruce in the comics.

So I put Jason’s death as happening only about a year, maybe a year and a half before YJ S2, when Dick is only 18…..so a lot of how I see Dick reacting here, and how he deals with his grief and guilt, like, stems from him being young and not really wanting to RELINQUISH his guilt. He’s experienced so much tragedy in his life already by age 18 that like, he needs it to make sense, he needs there to be a reason, and that gets twisted in his head so that he comes to lean on his guilt and rely on it, because the extension of it being his fault, is like….that means there’s a REASON Jason is dead, and by blaming himself, Dick is able to kind of impose a sort of artificial order on what is ultimately just a senseless tragedy, violence that needed no reason to exist.

Grief rarely makes sense.

But point being, like I said, I feel Bruce is a bit more emotionally healthy and put together in YJ than in the comics a lot of the times, so here I emphasize him trying to work through his own grief by FOCUSING on his remaining son, rather than alienating him and immersing himself in violence and his own guilt. Trying to help Dick through his grief and loss and guilt at the death of his brother, after having lost his first family just a decade before, whereas Bruce’s own initial tragedy is further removed for him….like, here, this is how Bruce copes. It gives him a goal, something to focus on, a productive direction to channel his grief and anger and energy.

Unfortunately, the thing is, you can’t really ever help someone through their grief or loss in something like this, IMO. You can only really ever just….be there for them, when they’re ready and able to come to terms with it in their own way and just need your presence and support. Which Bruce does here, for Dick, but the caveat to that is there’s no timeline to it, and no way to speed up that timeline. It happens when it happens. Sometimes these things just need some degree of time to work themselves out, and I think that here, Dick needs time to spend feeling guilty, being angry, raging at the senselessness of it all before he’s able to accept the tragedy of it and the fact that it happened because it happened. Reasons ultimately don’t do much more than chart a course to the tragedy. They rarely change anything about it having happened.

So again, even though its the right thing to do and not really something he had any better alternative to, Bruce trying to get Dick to see that Jason’s death wasn’t his fault is ironically the thing that alienates them for a period here, even if only a year or two at most. Because as I said, Dick just doesn’t want to hear that, doesn’t want to accept that, because blaming himself is something he can DO, and if he doesn’t have even that anymore, then there’s nothing to distract him from facing the simple reality that’s just…his brother is gone and nothing he can do or say is going to change that.

And then there’s Tim. I always view him as about two years younger than Jason in the comics and the same here, so if Jason is 15 when he dies and Dick is 18, Tim is 13 when he becomes Robin.

But again, there’s differences here, because Bruce is actually dealing with Jason’s death a bit more healthily here, in as much as that’s possible. By focusing his attention on Dick and trying to get him through this and them through this as a family, Bruce is able to avoid the spiral he goes through in the comics, where he descends into brutality and self-destruction in his crime-fighting. Here, he’s trying to be a rock for Dick, when Dick is ready to try and grab hold of something instead of just drowning in his grief, so the end result is there’s not the same canon impetus for Tim to seek out Dick or Bruce himself out of concern for Batman’s behavior.

So rather, its more just hero worship that motivates Tim. I headcanon him as having figured out their identities previously, same as in the comics, and him being like, a huge fanboy of both Robins and having been among the first to realize when Jason took Dick’s place as Robin, even before Nightwing debuted and people connected the dots there. So of course, when Robin was nowhere to be found and Jason Todd was announced dead, Tim knew why Robin wasn’t out there anymore, and that he was never going to be again.

And so here, I think that alone is what motivates Tim, as that’s the thing he’s not able to accept. I think its a fitting grief reaction for Tim’s age, given that in a way, it is grief. He might not have known the Waynes personally at this point in time, but he did KNOW them in a way, from following their public lives in both their civilian and costumed personas. So it makes sense to me that Tim, knowing that Jason Todd and thus Robin is dead, and knowing that he’s one of the few people to even KNOW for sure that Robin is dead, like….it makes sense to me that he would end up grieving in a kind of way himself, even just from a distance, knowing that he can’t really just go up to the Waynes and offer his condolences about Robin.

And so for a thirteen year old fanboy who is grieving for a fallen hero he never knew personally, just via his symbol, and is perhaps frustrated and maybe even angry that nobody else is grieving for Robin, because the general public has no idea that a hero even fell….even being able to understand WHY it had to be that way, why Batman and the JLA weren’t announcing Robin’s death in order to protect the remaining Waynes’ identities….

I think here, this all culminated in an unwillingness, a refusal to accept this, and from there it kinda morphs for Tim into a determination to….keep Robin alive, essentially. He understands why they can’t admit Robin’s dead, he does. But if Robin can’t be dead, Tim decides, then he needs to be alive, otherwise its like pretending Robin just…..doesn’t exist anymore.

So here, I headcanon/write Tim as having set out as Robin himself, in kind of a makeshift costume and trying to help people the way he watched Dick and then Jason help people as Robin for years, as just…a combination of hero worship and a grieving thirteen year old trying to process things there’s no real manual to going through, and trying to honor his fallen hero by emulating him. I don’t think he was actually trying or intending to attract Batman’s intention, though he’d realize in hindsight it was inevitable, its just…that was never why he was doing it, so he was kinda like AWARE of it as a likely possibility, it just wasn’t particularly relevant to him until it happened.

And of course, it’d be quickly obvious to Bruce that this kid didn’t mean any disrespect with what he was doing, the exact OPPOSITE in fact, so its not like he could in good conscience be angry with him or resent him for doing it. Rather, he’s touched, it means a lot to see someone else honoring Jason for the things Bruce is kinda STUCK being unable to honor him for….so that makes Bruce perhaps a little more predisposed to Tim and not fighting him on his efforts than he otherwise would be, just considering it was as Robin that Jason died. I see it as Tim probably reminded him of Jason then and there just as Jason had reminded him of Dick when he met him…..rather than see himself in each of his sons and future sons, he sees THEM in each other.

So he kinda convinces himself not to talk himself out of letting Tim continue what he’s doing, justifying it as like, Tim’s obviously so much like both Jason and Dick, there’s no way he’s not going to keep doing this on his own if he feels this strongly about it, and he understands and even agrees with Tim’s logic in doing all of this in the name of Robin, like it makes sense to him as a way of honoring Jason, so he kinda just….like I said, he just talks himself out of talking Tim out of this and focuses on just training Tim and trying to make him as capable and prepared to survive anything he encounters as possible. And at the same time, Tim kinda becomes a new ‘project’ for Bruce to distract himself from his own grief with, especially while Dick is avoiding him.

Dunno if you’ve seen my meta on this subject but I really LOATHE the take that is used for Tim’s comic book narrative, that Batman NEEDS Robin and that this thirteen year old shouldered the burden of becoming a grown adult’s emotional support child in order to stop him from like, beating people and himself to the point of hospitalization. To me that’s just…..super backwards and not ideal at all, so I flipped it here to what I think it should be, at least for a world predicated on child superheroes who aren’t grounded from crime-fighting each and every time they try it.

So rather, in the YJ universe I posit Tim becomes Robin to keep Robin alive, after knowing he must be dead, and Bruce devotes himself to helping the latest caped kid to plant himself in his life and say “I’m gonna go save the world whether you like it or not so get on board or get outta the way old man,” like….actually survive their “Kids, Don’t Try This At Home, No But Seriously, Really, Really Don’t” life choices.

And so here, Bruce doesn’t make Tim Robin….its more he just doesn’t have the heart to second guess Tim’s choice there, given his reasons for making it and the fact that Bruce no doubt feels guilty about not being able to honor his son as Robin himself.

Problem is, from a distance, that’s not how it would look to Dick. So this contributes to Dick’s distance and alienation for a few months at first….because to him, this is a betrayal, because he looks at what he knows of the situation and he doesn’t know Tim personally yet, so to him it looks like his dad took the one thing Dick ever gave to his brother that was truly his, that was just theirs…and gave it to some stranger. And he’s like, wow, I’ll take “You’re fucking dead to me for $500, Alex” and keeps his distance.

Except Tim hero-worshipped Dick just as much as he had Jason, and he’s witness to Bruce’s unhappiness because of his strained relationship with his son, and so Tim sets out to like, meet Dick and convince him that his dad is miserable because he never wanted to hurt either of his boys and he loves Dick so much, gosh, he just wished Dick knew how much…..

And the thing is HERE, unlike in comics, since the real issue is Dick not knowing Tim himself and seeing how similar he is to Jason and himself and how determined he was, like, having a backwards perception of Bruce just kinda….giving Robin to Tim rather than Tim just genuinely wanting to honor Jason’s memory, which Dick of course can’t actually fault him for any more than Bruce can, for pretty much the same reasons….

Because THAT is the specific issue, here, meeting Tim and getting to know him IS exactly what’s needed to get Dick to reconcile with Bruce, and from there, finally start to heal as Bruce and Tim and Dick and Alfred are kinda all able to finally get on the same page and help each other with that.

And then stuff with Tim’s parents happened, I figure, and Bruce is like, well I gotta adopt you now, like duh, obviously, but I mean, only if you want, and Tim is like well yeah, obviously, like duh, and this probably all happened right around the exact same time Cass came into their lives and family and Steph started Spoilering around town because what is pacing, I mean, really.

BUT then bonus to all of that is that then by the time Jason DOES come back, he doesn’t feel as alienated or forgotten as in the comics, because Dick due to his and Bruce’s very apparent period of estrangement, not to mention Dick’s reasons, is able to act as a bridge between Jason and Bruce. And similarly, he’s able to blunt Jason’s resentment of Tim and insecurities about being replaced by virtue of the fact that Dick held these very things against Bruce himself on Jason’s behalf, until Dick got to know Tim and began to see it the way Bruce had, and that he in turn is now able to relay to Jason and help guide him to see it the same way and how everything only happened this way BECAUSE of everyone’s memories and feelings about him, not in spite or in dismissal of those things.

And thus I can this way see the YJ Batfamily awkwardly stumbling (albeit with a few backsteps along the way) towards actual happy and healthy cohesiveness, huzzah!

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