#anti rockie

[byler-alarmist]

Vickie who?

[dufrau]

my toxic trait is that i do not believe rovickie/rockie shippers actually exist. i assume they are steve/steddie stans who dont actually care about robin and just want an uncomplicated relationship to stick her in while she plays the part of steve's sidekick, or that they are anti- ronance people pretending to like vickie when really they just hate nancy.

[lesbiannancytruther]

no but hear me out:

i want robin to kiss a girl in season 5 so badly and no matter who it is, in the end of the day i will take it because she needs a gf already BUT

it has to be nancy. like it has to be. it's not that i dislike vickie or anything but i just (i better not get canceled for that one) feel like her character was kind of poorly written? no hate to the actress at all, but to me it just felt like they copy-pasted robin's entire personality and turned it into a new character?? i don't know maybe that's just me? robin deserves a complex character by her side (nancy god damn wheeler) and i am dying on that hill. nancy is and has always been such a complex character and giving her a girlfriend would only EMPHASIZE this complexity. from s1 one until now nancy has been captured in this love triangle and it is pretty clear that she never felt fully understood in neither of those relationships. like she always had to prove herself you know what i mean? with both steve and jonathan. now guess what? she never had to prove herself around robin. ROBIN EVEN PUT HER IN CHARGE HELLO??

and robin...well the way she rambled around nancy?? the way she looked down when she saw the way nancy was looking at steve?? the way she called for nancy when she went after steve?? the way they held hands??? they both deserve each other so much. i could literally talk about this for HOURS oh my god. the ronance hyperfixation is going strong!

hello anon i understand u so strongly, and im sorry this took me so long to get to! i promise it wasn't intentional!

i will forever be on the train that even if vickie was done better than she was, she will always be a character introduced to give the lesbian character a love interest, she was doomed to this position from the start because she had no other real purpose! rockie will always feel inorganic because vickie is nothing beyond a love interest for robin.

this is. such a common problem, ESPECIALLY in wlw ships, and that's why i love ronance. nancy wheeler is immune to this phenomenon because she and robin were both created independently and with different purposes, and their stories come together so well its actually insane

nancy wheeler is one of those characters that is so hard to understand if you don't look at her through a queer lens, or at the very least an anti-misogynist one. i think the best thing the duffers could do for her is finish the arc she started in season 1, which is focused on self-realization and discovery.

the entire show she has been told who she is, what she should do, who she likes, who she loves, by everyone! it is never nancy who says these things, it is other characters telling her, even barb, even robin. how insane would it be if she came to the conclusion on her own that she liked women? or at the very least had looked at her own feelings not through the lens of someone who didn't understand her or the situation they were talking about.

robin falls into these same patterns, but the more she gets to know nancy, the more she really understands her, the more she backs off on those kinds of comments and the more she uplifts nancy's voice. there is SO MUCH POTENTIAL in them and the fact that it will more likely than not be ignored is so. agonizing. please duffer brothers see the vision

[ronanceisintheair]

Rockie isn't great for rep. Idk why people say that. Like it's truly a delusion and feeling like anything is better than nothing mentality, but it's not. Rockie is kind of worse than nothing imo. Like a laugh in the face. Someone handing you a bowl of dog food and telling you to eat it.

They got like what 5 minutes of scene together that was forced in the worst way. Like shoving a triangle into the circle hole of one of those kids toys?

I genuinely don't see how people can sit and say rockie is good rep. (I've seen actually fleshed out wlw ships ripped to shreds so it's laughable/sad that some have become so desperate they see rockie and think it's good rep)

Rockie shouldn't be ripped to shreds but it's nowhere even remotely close to good rep or much rep at all. But st fandom has so much brainrot going on. Like that's not good writing. Not good character progression.

Like what you like obviously, but to be deluded enough to say it's good rep...please respect yourself. Demand more because that's like below the bare minimum. Your standards are in hell if that's good rep.

[miaisagirllover]

idk man i think a character who doesnt have any scenes about their personal life beyond love and who also doesnt have a surname and who is just a copy-paste of their love interest isnt really that good sapphic rep. and yes this is about vickie.

[whereserpentswalk]

Nothing is more illustrative of how rainbow capitalism erodes queer identities into marketable categories then the difference between the original movie of Rocky Horror Picture show, and that live show they filmed in the 2010s.

In the original Dr Frank n Furter is a character who blurs gender lines. He's technically a villian but in that Disney way where he's still inherently likeable. He's androgynous, and can be interpreted as trans, nonbinary or gnc depending on how the audience decides to read him, but he's very clearly outside the gender binary in a way that's hard to ridgedly define.

In the 21st century adaptation he's changed to be a very binary, 100% passing, trans woman. While people like that are definitely valid, it's far from making him more diverse or progressive. He goes from someone that can't fit into either binary gender norm, to someone working hard to fit into one of them. And it's the type of thing neolibs love to see as being more progressive. We've gone from a queer culture based around trying to destroy gender norms, to a queer culture based around begging cishet people to let us be part of their gender norms.

Rainbow capitalism doesn't just commodify queer culture. It actively eats away at parts of the queer community.

[findafight]

Vickie stranger things you are sooooo woman hated by the fandom who has done nothing wrong but be the canon mutual love interest for one side of a popular gay ship coded you deserve so much better than this

[noodlesbatches]

ross duffer should post rockie and byler on june 1st with no context tbh 🤷‍♂️

[outgrownx]

The fact that Rihanna was telling us she's leaving music to go do make up and literally waved bye bye every night on tour, but we didn't get the hint

[punkeropercyjackson]

I'm an 'prefers gay cartoons over adult gay media' type of gay but purely because most of the lgbt kids shows i'm into have at worst have a bit of good faith rep that wasn't written well meanwhile as i'm discovering the older kinds of queer media i find out more and more that they weren't actual good gay shit and just like.Blatant transmisogyny that gets looked over despite being unerasable from the narrative/characters because people don't want to consider trans womens feelings and safety even though they're the most important part of our community if it benefits them personally

[starry-eyed-steve]

What do you have against Ronance? It's clear Robin was attracted to Nancy as well as Vickie. Not only that, she jumped off a boat into monster-water for her, for goodness' sake. It's a bad-faith argument to say that people don't ship Vickie with Robin because she's a bisexual sapphic woman. Greatwise/Will and Gareth is not comparable in the slightest as that is a crack ship that never interacted. We DID have scenes with Robin and Vickie, though few.

And I'm gonna be So For Real, more people would ship Rovickie if Ronance was not there. People would devour those crumbs. But why choose crumbs, when you have a potential meal we spent a whole season with?

Okay, so this is really long, I'm sorry this took way too much time. I know I went a bit overboard. If there are any errors, please ignore lmao. Thank you for sending me an ask for a discussion. I also want to preface that I don't hate Nancy as a character, I don't like how she is written in certain situations and that the show overlooks mistakes she makes, and by pointing out those mistakes on her behalf is not me hating on her. Overall, I think she deserves better than what she is given both in the show and fandom.

First things first, Robin didn't jump into the water for Nancy. It was a delayed response after seeing her best friend being dragged under water. She's not as brave as Nancy. If we would apply the same logic, then Eddie would have jumped for Robin because he's in love with her. So no Robin jumped for Steve and should have been the first to do so, but because that scene was used for Stancy later (Eddie giving the speech to Steve in the woods) it had to be Nancy in that instance. It's really bothering me that this scene is so misread because people just don't get Robin's character. Who would you jump for, your best friend you know better than yourself or the girl you met a day ago?

The whole premise of Ronance (platonic or romantic) in s4 was so ooc for Robin, s3 Robin would have never acted the way like s4 Robin did. And I think that has something to do with what I said in the other post. We don't have enough time. There is no conflict when different groups of people come together because the show needs everyone to get along to save the world, and they couldn't elaborate on complex feelings a person might have towards others. So the show made Robin throw herself at Nancy's feet, despite thinking not too highly about her a season prior. Same with Steddie, the OG script was about how Steve and Eddie didn't get along first but it was cut out because there is no time to proper develop new relationships, even tho it would be more interesting. But again, that would mean the show would have to give us more episodes, which is unfortunately not the case.

So you see, I just don't think Robin would have acted the way she did around Nancy based on the character traits she displayed in s3. Furthermore, I will bring up Steve, which is a sensitive topic when it comes to Ronance. I don't want to come off as someone who in general makes a lesbian/sapphic relationship about a man's feelings, however because Steve has history with both girls I can't ignore him because Robin wouldn't either.

A little bit of background of Robin prior to meeting Nancy:

In s3, Robin couldn't stand Steve, and later, we found out why. It had mostly to do with her crush, Tammy Thompson, who had only eyes for him. Yeah, he was obnoxious, and Robin couldn't stand his smugness and arrogance, but the main reason was Tammy and her being kinda jealous of Steve in general because he had no problems fitting in. So she held on to this grudge against Steve for maybe even years. That tells us she doesn't forget when someone has wronged her and maybe, to an extent, her friends. Like she seems to be a person who has your back, no matter what.

Idk if you consider Rebel Robin as canon (I mean Maya narrated the podcast soo I mostly view it that way) but before Barb was Nancy's bff, she was close with Robin and later ditched her for Nancy. That in itself would leave a bad taste in Robin's mouth, and I guess she wouldn't be Nancy's biggest fan. Maybe that's why the priss comment in s3. Again, she had no problem disliking Steve because her crush liked him, but then she does an 180 with Nancy despite Barb being her actual friend leaving her for Nancy. Losing a friend to another person is much worse than a crush you never talked to, not liking you back or liking someone else.

But even if you ignore the Barb stuff and don't think it's canon, Robin still wouldn't be Nancy's biggest fan in the beginning and that has something to do with how Stancy ended and Jancy begun. You have to keep in mind Steve is Robin's bff, one if not the most important person in her life. He's everything to her she trusts him completely. He was maybe even the first person to know she was gay. Then why on earth would Robin A try to befriend Nancy, who broke his heart, and B trying to push her without a thought to get together with him again. It doesn't make any sense to me, based on how Robin was introduced.

Steve may have not any hard feelings for Nancy, maybe he only said positive things about her to Robin because he still views himself as the only person who fucked up in that relationship and not that Nancy was already in love with Jonathan for a while before things ended. Idk where you stand on the whole cheating thing, but it doesn't matter because rumors outside of the relationship would spread. Steve, the most popular guy in school, who is well liked, got left by his girlfriend of 1 year for the school freak, not even 2 days after a public fight. Like people would go crazy and Robin would have heard those rumors as well. You have to admit getting together with a new guy, not even after 48h is, I don't want to say weird, but not very cool, okay? Plus, Tommy would spread extra nasty shit because he hates Nancy and Jonathan and wants to hurt Steve as well. Robin would view her through those rumors, plus Steve having a hard time letting go, being heartbroken about it, there is no doubt in my mind that she wouldn't side eye Nancy.

Those two reasons, Barb and how Stancy ended, are the main ones as to why I think Robin was ooc for desperately wanting to befriend Nancy.

So the way I would have built up Ronance would be Robin being aloof towards her, and Nancy would have been the one who wanted to befriend her in the first place. Nancy never has to work for her relationships with others. People usually make the first move with her, so she never has to give much thought to it. Like Steve still loves her, Jonathan was ready to follow her wherever even if it endangered his family, and Fred followed her around like a lost puppy as well. And with Robin, it could have gone differently. Nancy should have made it her mission to make it up to Robin. Like she desperately wants a friend, she doesn't understand why Robin is being cold to her. By making her the instigator, Nancy would have to reflect on her mistakes and how she treated people, which would finally give her some personal character growth. Plus, it would have made the introduction to Stancy (romantic or platonic) way smoother and more balanced because Nancy never reflected on it. Steve's just available she doesn't have to make it up to him as well. Nancy never really addresses her faults in relationships, and the narrative in Stranger Things lets her off the hook every time. Letting Steve believe he was a terrible boyfriend despite liking Jonathan instead of him? No problem, no consequences. Steve still likes her. In s3 the show was again on her side when she fought with Jonathan by giving her the Karen pep talk, yes she apologized to him but she didn't understand his struggles really because she gave him the don't ever doubt me comment which kinda destroyed her apology imo. Furthermore, as soon as there was a rough patch in s4 with Jonathan, she expected him to come to her instead of going to him and fixing it because she has the financial means to do so, which indicates she still doesn't fully understand Jonathan's financial problems. Also, in general, Jonathan is terrified to tell her the truth, so he gets high to cope. It doesn't seem that he thinks Nancy is understanding.

Again, Robin could have been the person that would have made her realize wait, the way I take people for granted, and sometimes treat is wrong. Instead, we got yet another person instantly liking her and going along with everything she does, so Nancy never had to do anything for it, despite the obvious conflicts that should have arisen when they first met. But like I said before, the show doesn't have much time and focuses more on the plot, so there is no real development for characters, and everyone has to get along. I also think Stranger Things wanted a strong girl duo like Elmax, so they just threw Ronance together without conflict because they wanted to avoid drama, which would take up too much screentime. I can't emphasize the fact that Stranger Things suffers so much because it has too much plot and not enough time. Plus, I believe making Robin angry at Nancy on Steve's behalf would mean acknowledging that Stancy ended in a bad way or that Jancy maybe didn't have this cute start as a romance, but that would also mean recognizing Steve might have not been the only one who was wrong which is simply not possible. When s2 aired and people pointed out hey did Nancy cheat on Steve, did they really break up because a lot of people didn't view the fight in the ally as a break, especially because Nancy mentions she likes Steve at Murray's and Steve went to her house, the Duffers had to confirm it via interviews because I doubt they thought people would sympathize with Steve. Hence, why the narrative only blames him because they wanted the audience root for Jancy.

Long story short, I would have switched roles for platonic Ronance in the show. When it comes to romantic Ronance, that's mostly on the fandom. Everyone is allowed to ship whatever, I personally just don't think they are a good match. I don't see Nancy being patient enough with Robin's neurodivergent ways. She wouldn't handle her rambling over time very well. Nancy gets quickly irrated and snaps. Like Robin already felt the need to explain herself to her, making sure everything is okay because Nancy made her feel like her personality is too much and has faults, like her mom constantly tells her. Whereas with Vickie, she felt immediately at ease when they talked. More of that later. Robin is also poor, maybe a bit better off than Jonathan, but still, Nancy already doesn't get Jonathan's problems. Another reason is that because Steve is Robin's bff, Robin wouldn't want to date her all together. Like she sees Steve still likes her, she knows how much Nancy hurt him to a point that he is serial dating because he has like trust issues, that would immediately turn her off. Robin values Steve's friendship way too much than try to jeopardize it in any way. It's not like Steve wouldn't allow her to date Nancy, I think he would do everything to make Robin happy even if it costs his own happiness. Robin knows Steve. She would know that he would be hurt, and that's ultimately the factor that turns her off. Maya already confirmed that Robin values platonic relationships so much, so yeah. Just think about it that way. How would Robin feel if Steve suddenly would show interest in Vickie and starts dating her? That would be kinda fucked, same goes for Ronance, Robin knows Steve still likes her. I'm also a believer that you shouldn't necessarily date your bffs ex, it's just too messy especially if that relationship ended rather badly.

@findafight had this amazing post about one-sided Ronance, where they described exactly what I'm trying to convey. Nancy is the one interested, but ultimately, Robin declines because of her relationship to Steve. They also have several other posts about Ronance if you want to check it out. Another blog that discusses Ronance and has similar opinions is @thestobingirlie

What I dislike the most is that in Ronance, mostly Robin is only an ounce of her typical character. Her relationship with Steve is downplayed. She makes fun of him with Nancy, she lies to him about her relationship, even asks for sex advice in some fics which is just very weird and so ooc for her to do. Same goes for Steddie, as soon as either Steve or Robin go into a relationship both characters are so ooc, you almost don't recognize them, plus they only have time for their partners and their friendship gets sidelined, which again doesn't make sense for their characters. Ronance is also mostly beneficial to Nancy as it's viewed more how Robin can save her so she doesn't have to end up with a man. Hence, all the posts about how Robin is the only person who gets her, which is also such a shitty thing to say because both Jonathan and Steve were trying. Like Nancy's character development hinges more on her relationship with Robin than doing some soul-searching. Because for real, all her relationships so far are kinda meh because she doesn't know how to communicate properly with her partners, Robin wouldn't magically make everything better because she's a girl. Nancy needs to be single first and discover who she is without jumping in a new relationship. She needs therapy and has to work on her people skills to be a better partner for future relationships.

Also, so many people want Nancy to have a friend, and when Robin comes along, they immediately make it romantic. Robin can still be there for Nancy and understand her as a friend. I don't think she was romantically interested in Nancy in the show. She was actively pushing for Stancy. She only ever talked about being into Vickie romantically. Robin should be allowed to make a friend who is a girl without making it into a romance just because she is a lesbian. Lesbians can have platonic girl friends, lol. Fact is that so many see Robin interacting with a girl as romantic because she is looking at her and then ignore her real crush she talks about all the time.

Now to Rovickie and Vickie. What I meant with people not giving Vickie a chance because she's a girl and interested in a sapphic relationship is a common occurrence throughout fandoms in general. Guys are usually preferred when talking about characters or shipping. Girls have it so much harder. Like with Gareth, I don't think my comparison of him and Vickie was nonsensical or dumb. The fandom had no problems coming up with interesting headcanons for him, even outside the crackship. Almost all the hellfire boys, but especially Gareth because he's the most objectively attractive one of the group, got more love from the fandom. Vickie, on the other hand, is mostly used as the villain in Ronance fics, who is in the way of the main ship. People in general call her boring or too similar to Robin, which is insane because we have one scene where she rambles because she is talking to her potential crush. Also, being similar doesn't have to mean it's bad. Like I mentioned earlier, Vickie rambling is showing Robin it's okay to do so, which makes her feel immediately relaxed because she doesn't have to explain herself to Vickie. Not to mention the biphobia that runs through fandoms. The fact that Vickie had a boyfriend, who she broke up with, was enough. People usually headcanon Nancy as a lesbian than making her bi. Steve's only a bi icon when he's shipped with guys, like him dating a girl is seen as less valued or popular. Again, everyone can headcanon characters sexuality how they like, you do you it's just apparent that characters who are seen as bi are only celebrated for dating a person of the same sex.

Lastly, think about it if Vickie was a guy who was the love interest for Steve, there would be non-stop content for her. She would be well loved within the fandom. But Vickie is a girl, and if she were used as the love interest for Steve instead of Robin, she would also face the same scrutiny the already faces now. She's the villain in the way of ships because she's only a side character and not the full meal like you described. A male characters even with almost no screentime, will always get better treatment than female characters.

[unitedfrontvarietyhour]

Welcome to Commievision. Please make sure your deprogramming glasses are on, your solidarity plugin is enabled, and to watch to the end for the full experience.

Timestamps:

0:06 - TRTWorld Report: UNRWA faces withholding of funds from multiple UN member states (circa Jan 2024)

0:23 - "Just Another Precise, Surgical Strike on Hamas by Israel"

1:04 - "That's not morality, that's a PR exercise" Ben Kentish on LBC Explaining Where in Gaza is "Safe"

2:03 - "Yitzhak Shamir on Mastermind" Spitting Image sketch

2:52 - "Where's the Apartheid?" Farah Jad Schools Michael Rapaport on Israeli Apartheid

4:43 - "Every Accusation is a Confession"

4:56 - Israeli Tank Enters Rafah

5:18 - Noam Chomsky Destroys the Charge That "Antizionism is the New Antisemitism"

[will80sbyers]

a new thing I hate is people shipping Vickie and Steve so that Robin can date Nancy

[lordystrange]

The probability of ST ships being endgame:

Jopper: 99,99% Unless one of them dies, they are endgame. And I don’t think they’d die.

Lumax: 90,00% The threaths are Max dying or Max ending up with El but I’m pretty confident on this one

Jancy: 65,00% They have their problems and either one of them might die. Also ronance and stancy are a possibility and/or Nancy might end up on her own. But Jancy was my first ship so I hope they’ll make it!

Stancy: 5,00% We already saw that they didn’t work out. Also Nancy wants a career and Steve wants a big family, so they are still not compatible whether there’s feelings or not.

Elmax: 10,00% I love this ship and I hope it’d happen but I think they are gonna go with Lumax

Jargyle: 3,00% It would be super fun but no

Duzie: 90% I don’t know what they have planned for Dustin, but they are probably not gonna kill Suzie… maybe…

Henderhop: 11,00% This ship has my heart but sadly I don’t think it’ll be canon

Ronance: 50,00% If the writers aren’t gonna go with Jancy, I think Ronance has quite good chances!!

Rockie: 85,00% If Ronance doesn’t happen and both survive, this is the way to go!

Steddie: 1,00% Eddie is dead and I don’t think he’ll come back but I gave it a little chance because I find it cute

Mileven: 4,00% This ship would need A LOT of work after all this shit. Narratively it seems that they are going towards independent El and queer Mike. Also they just are not romantically compatible, and don’t love each other the way the other would want.

Byler: 99,99% Narratively this just makes sense and I don’t see how killing one of them would work for the story. I’m very confident with this!

[dropdeadbf]

rocky horror wasn't transsexual enough. I need sci-fi fantasy trans freedom fighters forcibly transsexualizing their government officials for passing anti-trans healthcare laws and being capitalist pigs. I need transsexuals to be performing their cruel and unusual punishments thru god-like creation. also make sure this one still has its queer eroticism

[pedoloony]

draw fiery biting grassy out of rage

it means he likes you grassy