#bc i always interpreted it as both of them being in love with break

[asogikazumas]

No thoughts head empty only break

[whamss]

Rose would be a shitty girlfriend but people really miss the flavor with exploring that when they take it as Rose not liking Kanaya as much as vice versa as opposed to her being painfully into Kanaya but not knowing how to like. Empathize with other people properly and being too self-absorbed to attend to any of Kanaya's needs, or even really notice when her own behavior is hurting her.

I think it's pretty well-established that Rose is super into her. Girl who drank her ass off before their first date bc she was nervous and constantly turmoiled over whether or not Kanaya was going to break up w her and wanting to make things better between them even leading up to her death, only people to say that she doesn't like Kanaya. If Kanaya broke up with Rose she would perish. Lines like "I never even got to tell her I love her" tell us nothing if not that Rose was painfully in love with Kanaya, but could never find it in herself to tell her. Whether this is because she was trying to protect herself on the chance that Kanaya got sick of her shit and decided to break up or because Rose was so out of it constantly she just could never get it out is up to interpretation. But Rose being a shitty girlfriend and her relationship with Kanaya being extremely important to her aren't concepts that are mutually exclusive. If anything I think they play hand in hand.

I also just think people need to give Kanaya more autonomy than they do. Don't get me wrong the power dynamic IS inbalanced. Rose is insane and constantly making mistakes and impulsive decisions and Kanaya is always left picking up the pieces when she does something crazy. Rose hurts Kanaya to an incomparable degree. Kanaya has far more patience for Rose than she probably should, but she isn't a doormat. The entire interaction Kanaya and Rose had on the meteor, where Kanaya flipped out on Rose for drinking right before they were due for a big fight, tells us so much about what their dynamic was leading up to this imo. This is a conversation they've had countless times before, Kanaya's anger is always followed up with some fearful suggestion from Rose that Kanaya is going to break up with her. Kanaya is a girl dealing with a partner deep in the throes of alcoholism, she's painfully compliant, but their interactions both leading up to them getting together and once they do both on the meteor and off of it show that the relationship anxiety is very one-sided. Rose is the only one worried about them breaking up, because she sucks and she knows that. Kanaya cares deeply for Rose but if either of them are going to be cooly cutting things off between them it's her, not Rose.

I love giving rosemary divorce particles, I can never be convinced that two girls who got together That Young could make it work between them without a ton of bumps in the road. I love that Rose is fucked up and self-centered and I like when people acknowledge this, but she DOES love Kanaya. To her own detriment. Kanaya is the one constantly disillusioned by Rose's behavior, the one who's commitment is constantly tested, not the other way around. Wish more people could acknowledge this... Rose loves Kanaya! And Kanaya loves Rose too, I think. But people really wooby her when they try to frame even the likes of pre-retcon rosemary like Kanaya is a nothing but a victim of Rose's vices, and that Rose somehow doesn't actually want to be in a relationship with her.

Pre-retcon rosemary was definitely on track to an untimely break up though. Rose wasn't going to be the one to pull that trigger though

[ossifer-bones]

the paul poll compelled me to just quickly write up my little opinion piece on paul and necromancy in the tlt verse bcs tags are a pain in the ass to elaborate on my opinion in: paul horrifies me. i think that a lot of people read palamedes' interpretation of lyctorhood as being some sort of objective truth and that there is a right way to do lyctorhood and paul is it, but i just don't agree with that; i think in a series rife with unreliable narrators, palamedes' views on lyctorhood should be considered as subjective as any other person's.

“Can one person even be two people? I feel like I’ve only got enough room inside for me, and sometimes like that room’s not even enough.” “Lyctors can,” said Palamedes, “or at least—they thought they could; in fact all they became were half-dead cannibals. I think a true Lyctorhood is a mutual death … a gravitational singularity creating something new. A true Grand Lysis, rather than the Petty Lysis of the megatheorem [...]

what he says here about lysis is in response to nona asking if one person can be two people, and thus it is a very loaded statement when coming from someone heralding from a society where the extreme co-dependence of the fundamentally unequal necro/cav bond is encouraged, especially considering camilla and palamedes are called out by others from that same society as being an exemplary case of co-dependence in that department!

camilla and palamedes are arguably more equal than any other cav/necro pair in series, in part due to that co-dependence, but we even see in NtN that cam does stuff that undercuts that equality (telling pyrrha to lie to palamedes, 'don't tell him i was weak'). and that equality, that love, is shown to be thought of as coming at the cost of freedom: when palamedes says, “I cannot bear the thought of using you.”—camilla responds, “Love and freedom don’t coexist, Warden.”

in the end, every permutation of the necro and cav pairing is irrevocably descended from john + alecto's example and while i think beauty can be found in some of them, they all suffer from the same fundamental imbalance that bond hinges on; nonconformity abates it, but abolishment is required for real freedom from it. the so-called indelible sin of lyctorhood is just an echo of the original sin john committed.

If there was one thing Gideon knew about necromancers, it was that they needed power. Thanergy—death juice—was abundant wherever things had died or were dying. Deep space was a necro’s nightmare, because nothing had ever been alive out there, so there were no big puddles of death lying around for Harrow and her ilk to suck up with a straw.

necromancy necessitates consumption, taking by its very nature: death, especially violent death, is what fuels it—infants producing more thanergy on death is literally a noted phenomena! paul's birth, while it could be seen as triumphant in the sense of it being an act of creation, is literally identified by palamedes himself as a mutual death, death being required to fuel it the same as any other necromantic working. i don't want to say 'necromancy is fundamentally evil' but uh... it is irrevocably tied into john's conception of human nature: "This is the problem, the incorporation, this is the hardest part … It’s the human instinct, to take."

something i always point out about camilla and palamedes' grand lysis is theparallel with gideon and harrow's incomplete petty lysis: both come about as a result of a fully-realised lyctor (ianthe, cytherea) having cornered the pair, resulting in both being threatened with imminent death (camilla critically injured and palamedes facing expulsion from naberius when ianthe re-emerges; harrow necromantically spent and gideon having suffered multiple injuries, both going to die when cytherea breaks through the bone dome). paul's birth only happened as a direct result of the continuation of the lyctoral cycle of violence, with ianthe in cytherea's position; per palamedes, “I am not saying this was our inevitable end … I am saying we have found the best and truest and kindest thing we can do in this moment.”

paul may be the best and truest and kindest thing cam and pal could've done in that moment, but that moment should've never came to pass: the codependency instilled into them through their society, the violence that put them in that position, and the consumptive necromancy that made paul possible. paul is horrifying because they are the most hopeful and kind thing, and they are the product of two people, one sans his own body, undergoing mutual death to fuel their birth.

they're the truest response to one flesh, one end: an oath purportedly coined by cristabel and alfred, who compelled their necromancers to ascend via a suicide pact.

valancy says one flesh one end sounds like instructions for a sex toy. can’t stop thinking about that so can someone stop cris and alfred before the sex toy phrase catches on, thanks.

did the sex toy phrase really need a response?

[museofthepyre]

Thinking abt Elijah and Jedidiah again, I’ve said a lot of it before, but I’m expanding here (finale spoilers btw):

I think Jeddie and Elijah were intentionally written to represent the opposing extremes of unhealthy love/ affection. It’s a symbolic parallel, they’re complete opposites in terms of attachment style… but they’re united in the fact that they’re both hurting Sydney (the subject of their feelings).

Jedidiah embodies cold, distant, withdrawn and purely behind the scenes love-

And Elijah embodies obsessive, love-bombing, all consuming and suffocating love.

Through this lens,

They both saw Sydney suffering and without consulting him (WITHOUT GIVING HIM A SAY!!!) took it upon themselves to help- but their fucked up perceptions of love lead their solutions to being… naturally… fucked up.

There’s even symbolism in the WAY they both tried to help (…had Sydney die).

Jedidiah wanted to end Sydney’s suffering. He would have Sydney die a lonely, cold, quiet death in the sterile environment of a hospital- then he’d bring him back in body, hoping that he’d return healthy again (the rose tinted memory of the old friend he loves)

Elijah wanted to end Sydney’s suffering. He would have Sydney die in a passionate roaring flame, surrounded by a crowd of feverous celebration- then he’d bring him back in spirit, hoping it’d bring him eternal peace and rest (the mirage of the deity-like figure he loves)

That is like the most blatant metaphorical representation of this whole thing imo. The mode of death represents their destructive love, and how it’s killing Sydney. Like, literally. But when it happens, they both wholeheartedly believe they’re doing this FOR Sydney, to “help” him.

AND THIS BRINGS ME TO MY OPINION ABT ELIJAHS INTENTIONS:

I’ve always interpreted Elijah as being entirely, legitimately convinced of everything he said. Like, through the lens of his own incredibly warped and distorted perception of “love”, he genuinely thought he was doing what was best for/ “helping” Sydney.

He had it in his head that he loved Sydney, none of that was a knowing lie, it was real to him— but his reality was… again, distorted.

And it’s written in a way which highlights how HORRIBLY UNHEALTHY that warped perception is. It mirrors how Jedidiah’s starkly contrasting ways are showcased as unhealthy, despite him too thinking that he was doing what was best for Sydney. Neither go excused, or sugar coated, the point being: to show how neither extreme is good.

Beyond their skewed actions,

They both wanted to resurrect a Sydney that didn’t exist. The Sydney Jedidiah wanted back had withered away,, Sydney’s sickness was more than physical, it had roots in his mind and memories. Jedidiah had left him feeling abandoned for so long that it’d take more than a simple reset to heal their rift. But he didn’t know how to do that, he didn’t know how to be close, and he was too wrapped up in his self- flagellation to actually break down the walls he’d built.

And Elijah’s version of Sydney was a total idolization. He was never self aware enough to realize he was a large contributor to Sydney’s suffering in the first place. He was too wrapped up in the thrall of his own delusions to realize how scary and confusing this all would be for Sydney. (I say delusions bc I think… they were/gen. Coming from someone who’s BPD-spawned delusions get similarly obsessive and convincing… I have a whole other tangent on this for another day)

This isn’t an Elijah apologist message btw, nor is it a Jedidiah apologist message— I just think this depth is an important part of the overall message- you can love someone and hurt them every second of it, if there’s no balance- a line between the two extremes!! I think we are seeing Jedidiah starting to find that line- he was actually listening to Sydney by the end of it all. Elijah… is still stuck in his head.

[autisticandroids]

broad strokes of my interpretation of 5x04 the end/the overall guidelines i pay attention to when writing endverse fic

it's about sam. in both a positive and a negative sense, all of endverse is built on sam's absence. on the one hand, there is a freedom and joy for dean that comes from being rid of sam. sam and dean don't really... like each other anymore from s4 onwards, and their unbreakable bond becomes more like a curse to both of them. in a way breaking it is a mercy, see: free to be you and me dean sections. sam's absence allows dean to form meaningful relationships in a way he's basically incapable of with sam around. and to dean sam is a ball and chain, he is first and foremost a duty, not a brother or friend. watch out for sammy. without that millstone around his neck dean is free to be his own person in a way he has literally never been in his whole life. on the other hand, there's the horror of it. sam says yes, and that breaks dean. while dean was running around having a grand old time exercising newfound freedom, he was shirking his duty. his personal world was ending, and he didn't even know it. in the end, dean will never escape sam or have an identity outside of him, and with sam gone - not just separate but gone - he is fully and irrevocably broken.

endverse dean and endverse cas are so divorced, but in order to be that divorced you have to have been married first. to circle back to free to be you and me, do you see how happy dean is in that episode? do you see how sweet dean and cas are on each other? that's the starting point for endverse. that's the point of timeline divergence. whether their relationship experienced a gradual souring or a sharp decline when sam dies is unclear, but we know that it wasn't always this way. this is something that changed.

endverse cas probably isn't as pathetic as you think he is. this is a three-pronged point. 3a. when i say pathetic i don't mean miserable i mean pathetic. endverse cas is extremely miserable every day all the time bc of having to live through an apocalypse and being cutoff from heaven. however. compared to canon cas at the same time he is way less pathetic. he's a lot more self-possessed, and feels entitled enough to a good life that the fact that he's miserable makes him bitter. he may be unhappy but he does not have the kind of self-hatred/low self-esteem that canon cas has because that stuff develops later for particular reasons. 3b. dean is not like. the only thing in his life/the only reason he's miserable and he's probably not even the most important. he's literally living through the apocalypse for chrissakes. and also he's cut off from heaven, which he in the text cites as a major source of his misery. i tend to choose to interpret that as like. missing the hivemind of heaven (or even missing his angelic siblings who he cares deeply about) in order to get it to gel more with my interpretations of canon cas. but even just taking at face value that cas feels powerless and debased because of his fall that's still crunchy and like. not about dean really. like yeah the guy he fell for is no longer capable of loving him but also there's bigger problems here. 3c. drug use. obviously endverse cas uses various substances but if we look at the actual text there are three references to drug use across two exchanges. number one is "are you stoned?" "generally, yeah" ok like we are all grownups here and can admit smoking weed is fine right? right? obviously being stoned all the time is a sign that things aren't going super great in your life but that's generally a symptom of something worse. and then "[takes pill bottle] amphetamines?" "it's the perfect antidote to that absinthe" there are two references to drug use here. one is the fact that cas is taking adhd medication. that's addictive and he could be addicted to it, but also it's not exactly unusual for soldiers to take amphetamines before a battle, nor is it unusual for people who have to drive all night to take them to help them stay awake. also, the way cas talks about it, the vibe seems to be that this is one of many substances that cas occasionally partakes in. the other reference here is to the absinthe and that actually is a cut and dried reference to drug abuse. drinking heavily before driving all night and then going into battle is super irresponsible and likely indicative of a problem. and then the other body of evidence we have is that dean seems to consider cas to be absolutely competent and reliable, so if cas is addicted to something, it's definitely what you'd call a functional addiction, something that doesn't interfere with his life too much. so, broad strokes: if endverse cas is gonna be an addict he is actually probably most likely a functional alcoholic. which is also pretty fun because then you can really play in the space of He Learned It From Dean. 3d. endverse cas is textually kind of a sleazebag.

endverse dean is a shithead but not the way most people think. the notable thing about endverse dean is that he doesn't care enough about other people - endverse cas included but not unique. he's a bastard but his bastardry is lack of care, not intentional cruelty. this is, imo, if i may circle back to the first point, a result of sam's death - after that, dean became singleminded, only really interested in killing lucifer. willing to send cas and others he cares about into a meat grinder to chase his white-suited whale. but he's not mean. just cold. there is the festering corpse of a love relation between dean and cas, but it's not a situation where dean is mean to cas in the way like, season fifteen dean is mean to cas. he's not controlling, not using cas as a punching bag or chewtoy. maybe there's some mutual sniping but mostly dean just doesn't care. as a point of interest, one way in which endverse dean is cruel is he appears to be a habitual cheater. just watch cas' reaction when risa accuses dean of cheating on her. that's the face of a man who has been in her position and knows she is a fool to expect better. but again that's kind of more about not caring about the impact of his actions.

[i-eat-deodorant]

Tell me about your onions.

here's an onion. i'm so funny.

ahem.

ok real talk though i've been doing a couple brief dives into the reincarnation aspect of buddhism/hinduism, which haven't been super applicable to COTL so far. which is a shame, bc it has such an interesting take on rebirth and resurrection within the nature of religion.

in COTL, death is seen as semi-permanent and a boon. lamb uses it to their advantage via the nature of game protagonists being able to restart from a save point when they died. the ritual of resurrection is groundbreaking for followers, and i headcanon that the ritual of rebirth is the main reason why TOWW got imprisoned. it is very much a loaded gun in the COTL world.

but buddhism treats rebirth as not only a nature of living, but something that needs to be escaped from. literally something that one must fight to be unshackled from, to break past samsara and reach ascension via nirvana. it's such an interesting viewpoint to consider and explore, especially bc my interpretation of lamb has them never being willing to become this resurrecting figure in the first place. as much as the red crown has been a boon for them, it's also acted as a bind. they will always have both their mortal and godly vices.

in both hinduism and buddhism there are multiple schools of thought that tackle the continuuity of resurrection, aka "what is carried over when one is reborn?"

now suppose narinder did not carry everything he had as TOWW to his mortal form. what is lost, and what is gained?

if i were to adapt samsara into my cotl fics i'd focus less on actual death and more on metaphorical ones. which, ok bear with me here, is a huge part of my personal philosophy.

humans are not static; we grow and develop, and in doing so we shed prior versions of ourselves like metamorphosis. a sort of ego death lite, if you will. when faced with a traumatic event, the person you once were is not the same as the person you are now. that is the kind of metaphorical death i'm talking about; the death of a former self.

but what exactly marks the new self and the old self? nothing, theoretically. we can make the boundary as low or as high as we want.

consider the ship of theseus: if a huge portion of my body is replaced every 7 years, can i definitely say i am who i was 7 years ago? what part of identity and self stays constant, when my personality's changed drastically? am i a stranger with the memories of someone else?

now narrow the boundary. if the self is physically static, then every time a cell dies, the self dies.

using that technical definition, technically i die and am reborn every single second. a metaphorical death and a metaphorical rebirth, and what gets carried over?

something something life and death are two sides of the coin of change.

that's why i kinda keep emphasizing lamb's impostor syndrome crisis about themselves dying in both soul and body during the execution. that's why i divide narinder's life into such stark epochs (mortal, bishop, imprisoned, mortal again). that's why i love treating their afterlife not as a continuity of their character development, but a second chance. ship of theseus, broken down and rebuilt anew.

it's not nirvana. but it's making the best out of your own personal samsara.

and just. there's something so poetic about narinder and lamb reincarnating as gods of death, because the only way to die repeatedly is to live again after each one. a taste of permanence in the impermanent, without ever reaching that finality that they embody as gods. they represent the very thing they are and aren't. it's a paradox that makes perfect sense the moment you remove the black-and-white boundary of life/death that dictates they must be opposites.

and this is what i love exploring. breaking down the barriers of identity and death in the metaphysical sense, in two characters who are defined by so much loss in their lives. (metaphorical) death, treated as redemption, treated as healing.

lamb, offering a hand up to a newly reborn narinder. i died, i got up, and i live.

[bloogers-boogers]

Your Adam with Lucifer vs Adam with Michael post made my day,

I love that you can just see that kind of dickishness of Adam that just shine through with both of them, like sure, he loves them but he's also self-center and selfish, like that part when Adam is ask whether he would fall/redeem himself for them, I honestly interpret that of him saying he would think about it, he wouldn't actually do it,

With that in mind, does the difference between him saying 'I'm in love with you' in one year vs 2 thousand years really mean that much, the way I see it is that Adam genuinely loves them, he's also shallow and an asshole

To put it more metaphorically,

Adam with Lucifer is like a rollercoaster ride, there are high points and low points, he enjoys it's fast pace but he probably wouldn't have chosen to go on the rollercoaster in the first place and had to be coax to even consider it

Adam with Michael, however, is like a hike up a mountain, slow and meandering, he probably took breaks that last weeks at some point but he doesn't stop hiking and eventually reach the top

YESSSS Adam will always have that dick side of his no matter what, after all the things he’s seen I can’t see him as someone entirely sweet. I see him bitter, bitter that humanity was doomed to sin and struggle, but even more resentful over sinners not taking their second chance on being worthy of heaven and ascending, instead falling to hell and indulging in sin. And now with this whole hotel thing? It was just a tic for him.

I do see him having followed through everything (those things the angels probably didn’t ask him to do. Good deeds that genuinely came from his heart but he doesn’t recognize the acts of good he did back on earth) to be worthy of ascending. But after seeing the atrocities of his descendants and his kids, heaven not being entirely ‘perfect’ he kinda lost it. Not worth the effort anymore, not bothering anymore on trying, having it easy?

Being in heaven just disconnected him from his humanity using the excuse that he was now an angel. Like I feel even the mask represents that side of covering up his human features. He’s ashamed of it, he doesn’t want part of it anymore but he would never get rid of it because it’s a big part of his character. And he knows, hates that. It’s kinda why he brags about it because it beneficial for him (a title of significance in heaven over the winners/stands out from the crowd) but he genuinely doesn’t give a fuck and hates it.

And yes!! I definitely made it meaningful in both of the “one year vs two thousand years”

I see it as it took time with Michael for it to build up after yk eden and his wives so it TOOK a lot to fall for Michael. Like a lot of work was put in that relationship to become stable. Adam has a lot of trust issues and Michael understood that so he was really patient with him and Adam appreciated that side of Michael. So yess!! Adam had a lot of breaks to actually considering taking it seriously and Michael was there waiting for him to take that step.

While with Lucifer they already had a history going on, so things just pieced together quickly, however with that rocky start ofc Adam would’ve NOT chosen to give it a go but with a lot of hard work Lucifer did manage to snatch Adam’s heart hitting the right spots of it and trying to fix the hurt and damage he caused on Adam. They have like ALOT of issues to work on but now they are willing to make an effort to not do the same mistakes (Lucifer mostly agdkshdowhsow) Adam has major abandonment issues and Lucifer cannot leave Adam even if there’s times he wants out (bc Adam is a dick himself)

Like, Michael slow but quick🔥 while with Lucifer quick but slow🔥?

He loves them both differently but the love is there nonetheless

I’m glad my post made your day! 💖

[starofhisheart]

This scene in s2 w Ed and Frenchie

Parallels with this scene w Ed and Izzy from s1

(Had to snip a part out so it would fit but at first Izzy denies and then he actually tries, albeit begrudgingly.)

I always thought the scene with Izzy was showing how disconnected the pair are and while I still think that, the s2 scene shines new light on that original interaction. Where Izzy is trying to understand his boss, Frenchie doesnt even try and only denies. This is understandable ofc with everything Ed has put him and his friends through but its just interesting how they chose to parallel the scenes. Here, Frenchie has just become first mate and its almost like Ed hopes he'll be a sort of Izzy stand-in or at least falls back on his usual rapport with his first mate. But Frenchie is not Izzy. And this parallel highlights that.

I've had theories about how Ed sees Izzy and s2 has given us so much food for thought. When Izzy directly asks him "Who am I to you?" Ed softly says "what", like he's not even sure himself. The look on his face is blank but almost imploring and unsure. Izzy is just...Izzy. Friend? Lover? Thats too complicated and yet not as complicated as their relationship with each other. Izzy has clearly thought about it but has Ed? They've been together for so long ("I've been cleaning up your messes my whole fucking life.") without communicating their feelings. Bc thats what pirates do right? They dont have time for soft things like feelings.

But then Ed goes off and finds a new lover unlike any of his others and Izzy panics. Stede is a threat to their way of life, unsafe-at least thats how Izzy sees it-and then its over and Ed is breaking, depressed and then pretending to be ok

TW: suicide discussion

-and to speak on that specific point some more, I subscribe to the belief that post Lucius-talk-Ed where he's planning music shows, etc is not him coping healthily. We see this paralleled in s2 where after Izzy is "dead" Ed puts his hair up, starts cleaning and seems "chipper". But then we know he's planning to kill himself and everyone on board that same day. So this whole charade feels...macabre. He's getting his affairs in order in preparation for the big deed. Depression CAN look like this too.

When Izzy confesses he has love for Ed he says it haltingly, like its hard to even get the words out, like he's never said anything like this before (and he probably hasn't). And the words he chooses too. Instead of "I love you" he says "I have love for you". Its like he's saying after everything, all the pain and heartache, I still have love for you. But Ed refuses to, can't hear what Izzy is saying, and dismisses his confession. Perhaps he thinks this is a ploy too. After all he's unlovable right?

But we know from later scenes that Ed does love Izzy

in his own way. Some may interpret this line as platonic, some romantic-but I think it's more complicated than that. Again, Izzy and Ed have been together for so long the lines have blurred. They love each other like a brother. They're partners. They hate each other. They're an extension of each other. They're coworkers. Boss and right hand man. They can't imagine being without the other.

Well, whatever they feel for each other its capital C complicated that's for sure.

I have so many thoughts about ✨️them✨️ but I'll leave it here for now. No hate in the comments pls. Both men are my lil meows meows and have done nothing (and everything) wrong. Love those gay dudes fr.

[starscelly]

here’s my thing with 42455….. this is actually too long. many thoughts below 👇

we already have Seen roope be obsessed with miro for YEARS. he’s such a bitch (affectionate) but then it comes to miro and he’s like. he’s in such good shape ^.^ he’s so good both ways ^.^ he’s the best d in the world ^.^ he’s the most attractive finn on our team ^.^ he’s so good at so many things ^.^ he’s too nice ^.^ and you get miro's half hearted media answers in response. NOW you add harls into the equation who is dropping CRAZY affectionate quotes abt miro. he is not afflicted by the finnish mafia repressing emotions gene. he is very american about it. loudly proclaiming his love (for his game), how he amazes and dazzles and shocks etc etc literally groaning (positive) when asked about it. harls who literally like. chases miro down during breaks around the bench to yap at him and make him giggle.

now. miro is. the least interesting person to do media ever SORRY sorry he is very "get pucks in deep" core. you dont get as delicious quotes. what DOES he do? he giggles!!! he giggles and he expresses!!!!!!! which. yes he throws out a laugh or a fun expression for all of his teammates every once in a while. but he is ALWAYS laughing at harls and/or roope. he is always yapping BACK to them rather than just being yapped at and nodding. its subtle but the affection back is there!!!!! and his praise for both of their games cannot be understated and you know how he wouldnt shut up abt roope when he got drafted to dallas but . etc etc. you get the point.

this creates inch resting dynamics!!! 2 me!!!!! miro gets two (2) giant boyfriends who are utterly obsessed with him. now roope and harls.... they're not d partners and theyre not ridiculously fated finns. what can we Inspect here. other than some very cute fun celly moments (i need to give a nod to them!!!! roope is good at cellys this cannot be ignored) you get roope kind of. not brushing harls off but just. ultimately being unbothered by him? there's shots of them chatting on ice where roope barely looks at him whereas harls is doing his big wet sopping eyes shtick aggressively in roope's direction. this is also just an Accurate Vibe for them based on fandom interpretations of their personalities So.

the thing is, it doesnt read to me as annoyance or jealousy or anything. its really a. "miro has a little pet now. guess i will try my best to like it." and he is being Endeared Against His Will (see: my celly point again). combine this with miro's giggling at harls like he is a little court jester dancing for his entertainment. you get something very fun. very silly. two bitches and their weird little boyfriend that they love sooooo much but think is soooo absurd and will be so mean (affectionate) to him. and harls OBVIOUSLY loves his cunty ass boyfriends. very much "they dont bite ^.^" as they actively bite him. you know. and he’s such a dick to everyone else he Needs to be put in his place… basically roope and harls are HUUUUGE bitches to each other but in a silly way. like they very much probably would Not care abt each other without the addition of miro but bc they do have a miro they can have this <3

and then you add in how the dynamic would completely change in the bedro- [gunshots]

[seraphtrevs]

Do you have some favourite analyses about Lalo ? (From you or others)

Do I ever!

Lalo is Gay

And I don't mean "can be interrupted as gay" or "the straights wrote a gay character without realizing it", both of which are fine reasons to say a character is gay.

But I mean actually written on purpose gay. Lalo and Gus are written as foils who are superficially different - calculating/spontaneous, orderly/chaotic, serious/playful.

But if you look a little closer, they have a lot in common. Both have no personal life outside the game. Both are playing 5D chess while everyone else is playing checkers. Both are loners who trust almost no one. Both don't flaunt their wealth. Both are motivated by devotion to a loved one.

They're so alike, in fact, that they can almost read each other's minds - Lalo immediately knows who got him sent to jail and who sent the assassins after him, even though he didn't have proof. Gus never believed for a second Lalo was dead, even though every scrap of evidence pointed to it being the case, including a corpse matching Lalo's dental records. Lalo knows Gus tapped the phone. Gus knew Lalo was headed for the lab.

So - although different at first glance, their essential natures are the same. Gus is gay, ergo...

And there are context clues pointing to his sexuality. He's a confirmed bachelor despite the fact that he should be having kids to carry on the family dynasty. He declines the opportunity to have sex with a woman, even though there were very practical reasons for him to have sex with her. Being invited into her home and poking around once she was asleep would have been easier than breaking in, but he chose to hide in the bushes. Plus, he forces Nacho to elope with him.

Will we ever get confirmation? Probably not. But I'm a legit truther on this

Lalo is Satan

Mira -

It's the same picture.

Lalo tempts Jimmy into selling his soul to him, which he later comes to collect. And as I've talked about probably too much, Nacho is very explicitly a Christ figure. Lalo tries to tempt Nacho with power and wealth, but Nacho is never tempted. They really are Cartel Satan and Cartel Jesus, and I love that that ties them together

Lalo is an anti-protagonist

Which is a term I just made up. He's not an antihero - that would be Jimmy. It's just that he hijacks the narrative whenever he shows up. He has a very protagonist-like story - Gus and Nacho are the ones who are sabotaging him, when all he wants to do is protect his family. Assassins are sent to his home, and he defeats them single-handedly. He is betrayed by someone he trusted - someone who he has always treated well and genuinely liked.

But he's not a protagonist! He's a villain, who does very villainous things! On the Insider Podcast for the Black and Blue episode (I think), one of the writers mentions how much she roots for Lalo when he's away from the lead characters. He's written for you to root for, and then feel weird about rooting for.

He's the embodiment of Chuck's final, terrible advice to Jimmy - if you're going to do bad things, don't bother feeling guilty about it. And he only shows up once Chuck is gone. Does Chuck really want Jimmy to be like Lalo? Is Kim's "ends justify the means" attitude in season 6 warranted? How much does motive matter?

@lalo-tellmeagain - we were talking about his blue shoes - I don't have any production notes on this or anything, so this is just my personal interpretation. But blue is the color of the good guys in BCS. Lalo's blue shoes are ironic.

[jojameswinter]

Omg I love that you are here with some analysis r.e. kook year and making up with the pogues!

My take is that JJ doesn’t seem to have super high demands or expectations on his friends. I think he’s not bothered by being treated badly after maybe a day or two of stewing. He also seems perfectly happy to flirt with Sarah in S1, so I doubt he knows what went down. I bet he and JB would forgive early and not even need an explanation, although they both still seem a bit touchy about it in early season 1. Some of JJ’s jabs are a bit pointed still. Pope’s character needs to understand and agree more than the two of them do, which makes the Kie and Pope dock conversation make a lot of sense.

Also Kiara and JJ obviously seem to flirt and have a bit of an antagonistic fun mutual attraction thing going on in S1, but they don’t seem as soft or close with each other. Maybe a keeping at arm’s length kind of thing. Kiara needed to see him vulnerable to be softer with him (ie hot tub scene). They start to get softer as the seasons go on, but I didn’t get an impression of super closeness pre-canon.

Love hearing people’s takes on this!

I KNOW THERE'S NEVER ENOUGH DISCUSSION/TOO MANY TAKES, RIGHT???!!! 🤩

I definitely see what you mean about JJ taking what he can get kind of thing, which is so 😭 He is hot-headed though and can lash out, but at the end of the day, loyalty is the most important thing to him and the Pogues are the Pogues. He's gonna be there for them.

INTERESTING....I did not see JJ's behavior S1 as flirting with Sarah but almost like snarky and antagonistic. I actually interpreted that as a sort of defense, bc although he might not have known exactly what happened with her and Kie, he knows shit went down and he's taking Kie's side, always. Also, he just despises kooks LMAO

As for jiara seeing each other's softer sides, that's so interesting to think about!!!! I think they're very similar that way, having more difficulty being truly vulnerable. Their tendencies are to lash out more than break down, but JJ just couldn't help it in that moment 😭 You can feel his exhaustion of keeping it all together finally releasing. I don't read this as the very first time jiara has been soft with each other but maybe about this particular situation bc JJ seems to hide a lot from them. Kiara instantly knew how to be there for him whereas it took Pope a minute to catch up. I think this was a particular moment where JJ let Kiara be there for him. I see what you mean though, and in terms of just growing up, stakes being raised, etc., they're learning how to be there for each other even more openly and honestly. And part of that journey is realizing they're each other's person outside of the Pogues.

WOO a kook a year discussion in the year of season 4 LET'S GO!!!❤️

[seasaltmemories]

The Question of Dark Aono's Role

I don't want to make any definitive statements towards Dark Aono's role in the story on either a literal or metaphorical level. It feels like there is still a lot Shiina is holding back about him; however, I feel like for all the terrible horrors he could represent, at this it is pretty clear Dark Aono is not just a simple abuse allegory

Like I get why it might appear that way early in the story, we don't actually know Aono that well, and neither does Yuri, and stories of men turning "into completely different ppl" once locked into a relationship do exist, what Aono does with his limited agency speaks in direct opposition to that. When he feels he crossed a line, he isolates himself from Yuri and tries to stay away from her. In the cannibalism dream sequence he begs Yuri to run away from him even when she is determined to feed herself. Much of his greatest conflict is about being stuck in this monstrous role and trying to self-sabotage himself.

And like perhaps this could be a seen as a messy representation of the honeymoon phase of abuse, where apologies are made and the abuser is extra affectionate to make up for it, but I lean away from that bc we have much better representations of that in the familial stages. Midori and Hitomi both tend to follow up the worst of their wrong-doings with explicit apologies and excess affection, sometimes immediately after the incident. The Aono to Dark Aono cycling doesn't hit nearly the same beats, even when taking into account the supernatural elements.

While I don't want to lock myself into one interpretation before the story is finished, I always come back to the stairwell incident. Where Dark Aono is shocked in Aono when Yuri informs him he sounds like Midori for saying exactly what his Mother used to tell him. I think of how when he regains control, it is usually followed by shame and self-loathing, sometimes simply saying that his behavior was "weird' or outright calling himself a conman.

It is such a tricky situation bc to me Dark Aono has distinctive quirks and differences from our Aono in attitude/speech/everything, even when both characters try and manipulate others, they do it in very different ways. Yet for as drastic as the switch can be, he is never so clearly an alternate personality or entity taking over. Aono has stated outright that the further in the story he goes, the more aware he grows during this shifts, and many take place specifically due to Aono's emotional state rather than any outside taboo breaking. Dark Aono is both something alien, something intrusive, yet also a painfully familiar thing that clearly originates in himself

In the end I am reminded much more of how the aftereffects of abuse haunt even relationships formed years after escaping the situation. Aono was taught love is choosing one ultimate idol and doesn't realize how fucked up that is until he finds himself parroting the same words back to Yuri. Aono reverts to a child-like state and tries to prove both to others and to himself he is worthy of love when he realized he fucked up in some way. He excuses all his self-destructive self isolating coping mechanisms as necessary even while calling out those same traits in others

But as man-painy and gross the premise of "guy keeps hurting his gf even though he doesn;t want to bc mommy issues and that makes him sad" could be, what makes Shiina's writing compelling is she makes it clear that the one suffering the most here in the present is Yuri. Having sympathy for Aono doesn't make her situation any less worse, and from where volume 10 ends off, there are things Aono needs to answer for that can't be explained away by spooky occult shenanigans. I feel like Aono's ultimate role as either ally or antagonist will be determined by his choices in the end, no matter how many or few he has. There haven't been any easy answers in the story and so I don't except to suddenly discover them this late in the game. But regardless of how it plays out I can't help but already praise her for putting such an interesting and unpredictable spin on "dark alter egos" in a genre that can be overstuffed with them.

[acourtofthought]

Part of me wonders if SJM expected the Az bc reacting to go differently. Like maybe in her mind she was excited she finally got to tell us who Azriel’s (possible) mate is since it’s been a mystery for so long.. but I guess the fandom was doing its own thing in the meantime that him having a mate didn’t matter all that much so it came as a surprise

On a separate note, I think a rejected bond would be more meaningful if both elain and Azriel rejected their mate bonds. But when I see rejected bond theories it’s mostly about elain not of choosing her bond. It’s one-sided. Cause who’s to say Az would reject his mate bond? If both he and elain reject their bonds and choose each other now thats a better set up for a rejected mating bond.

I agree that the only way E/riel could ever work is if both Az and Elain rejected their mates. He spent 500 years waiting for a bond with Mor to snap into place. I think a certain side of the fandom downplays the enormity of that. Lucien was in love with and engaged to Jesminda, sure their bond would snap. In comparison: Mor has not returned Az's advances, has never indicated that they'll begin a relationship with one another yet Rhys says of Az in response to Feyre's question of "wouldn't the mating bond have snapped into place for them if it exists?": "I think that is a question Azriel has been asking himself every day since he met Mor." Az and Mor never got off the ground, never even shared a kiss, yet Az wanted a bond with her. That's a bit weird, right? Wanting a bond with someone who hasn't given indication they have feelings for you? Enter Elain and once again, he's focused on the bond. He and Elain aren't in a relationship, he's purposely been avoiding her, yet he's questioning why he didn't get a bond with the third sister. I'm sorry, but isn't that skipping a few steps? Shouldn't he first and foremost be focused on spending time with her, getting to know her, and so on? He knows she's mated to Lucien so why is he still obsessing over who got a bond with who? That's like marrying someone who is 5'10" and spending time obsessing over why they couldn't be 6'4". Had he said he didn't care that Elain was his mate, that his feelings for her were stronger than a predetermined bond than we'd be having a different conversation but he didn't say that. So yeah, at this stage it's very clear that Az holds the mating bond as the pinnacle of all that is holy and worthy and while there's no shame in that (because Cassian felt the same, saying he had always been holding out for a bond), there's little chance that if he went forward and started dating Elain he wouldn't constantly wonder if he had a mate out there. The only way I think E/riel would be believable is if Az knew of his mate and still chose to be with Elain anyway but, if two of her main characters break their bonds the alter upon which mating bonds have been built begins to crumble. First that means two others outside of Elain and Az will be left with broken bonds and the odds of them both being fine with that are unlikely. Say the bonds are between Elucien and Gwynriel, there's little chance both Lucien and Gwyn would be fine living their lives with broken bonds and like it or not, Lucien and Gwyn are just as big a part of the series at this point as Elain and Az are. Second, having the Mother screw up with two mating bonds within the same circle of people, the ones these books are about, invalidates the glory of the mating bond and how special it is. If the bonds success rate is only 50/50 within the same group then people will no longer hold it in such high regard. I think SJM was excited about the end of her Bonus Chapter. It's open to interpretation but she seemed very animated when talking to Steph about it in one of their lives and the only "surprise" within the bonus chapter was the part with Gwyn. People had been shipping E/riel prior to SF so him wanting to kiss Elain shouldn't have been all that surprising. People who did not ship E/riel seemed unsurprised by the bonus where they learned that Az's thoughts of Elain hadn't gotten beyond lust. Really, the most shocking part of it all was the mate coded language that she used for Gwynriel and to me that is what had her excited because she knows how much Steph loves Az and wants to see him happy (Az after Elain was not happy, Az after Gwyn was in a much better place).

[tokillamockingbird427]

yes !!! I had fun shopping thanks for asking :] I got craft stuff (i finally learned to sew & im gonna crochet the bag and sew in lining) and the cutest babydoll top ever im so blessed to have found it. I am normal and not in pain now

ur so right abt elias being mental illinois. I think he's one of those people that masked so hard that he hyperfixates on neurotypical/acceptable stuff. (rorke takes them all fishing and elias knows perhaps too much about these fish)

he always has a fun fact rolling around like a marble in his pea brain and everyone chocks it up to Dad Stuff but he's ND I fear.

i still think that he's like. not great abt certain things. i saw a someone interpret elias as homophobic and that made me personally angry but I do think his age and his social circles contribute to him being dense on certain topics. he's not maliciously a denier of mental illness he just doesn't understand bcs he's never been in an environment to do so. even when it's his own

-angel, that's my daily ask done time to go play subway surfers for 6 hours

Wooooo! Not woo for being in pain! But for the other stuff!!!

"mental illinois" He lives there.... city "Daniel"... many things not nerotypical about this man, beyond the PTSD. (Elias's special interest is fish; "Want fish, fear women/Women want me, fish fear me.")

No that's so me... 🤝 He's just constantly chucking barely related fun facts into the conversation and the handful of times the conversation has turned to ask him for fun facts he's been absolutely so delighted.

Elias in therapy 4k UltraHD IMAX surround sound.

I'm so sorry I'm laughing so had at Elias "I Didn't Know That Was an Option" Walker being so dense he doesn't realize being mentally ill or queer are options and also doesn't realize he is Both. Not malicious just incredibly stupid. He's like a dog. He doesn't understand those realities they're just concepts to him.

Okay but like; I genuinely don't think Elias wouldn't even realize in a more domestic au (Where no one fucking dies, *ahem* GABRIEL.) that he's gay in love and married to Rorke in everything but the legal way. He'd just be like "Nah, the boys went off to college and I had this big ole house and yk Rorke wanted to retire somewhere warm so now we live together and commit to domestic activates with each other because we're such good pals." and ykw Rorke wouldn't know either... Logan and Hesh come home for spring break and they're like "Oh, two dads now." and also don't realize Elias+Rorke don't know... Just a lot of "Not knowing jack about shit" in that family I think. No one asks questions they just accept shit. "This is happening." too relaxed I fear.

Fuck yeah, subway surfers. (Ur literally Logan)

[moomeecore]

hey, i hope this isnt rude, but i value your thoughts on betty (and simon!) and i think about your various analytical pieces often.

so i hope this isnt too vague, but. ive been thinking about the ways betty and simon might differ from each other, specifically in the way they view...everything. do you think one of them has a 'sees the big picture but misses the small details' view and the other has a 'gets lost in the details, cant see the big picture' view? im not sure if they differ here, or if they are both the 'gets lost in the details' but going opposite ways...?

FINALLY getting around to awnsering this. i got sick so it took me even longer than i thought it would (had to wait until i could retain coherent thoughts)!!

Ok So, a lot of this is extrapolating (esp for betty) and goes very into more of a headcanons and Personal Interpretations area than a, like, canon analysis. in part bc the show dosen’t give us a ton of content of these characters (i mean, there’s plenty of simon content as ice king but im talking about pre and post ice king simon here). but yea im just gonna ramble. dont take this super seriously btw guys. again a lot of this is just personal Interpretation yknow

SO i think simon is definitely a “gets lost in the details guy”. at least like, overall. that man overanalyzes things until he goes into a state of paralysis and then he just passes out. in some ways he might better about this post being-freed-from-the-curse, on the basis of "had to survive the apocalypse by thinking on his feet", but also worse about it bc of the lasting impacts of having been ice king. because one of the Big Things about ice king is that he almost never thought anything through and just did things as soon as he thought of them. i think simon probably really wants to be Not Like Ice King and so might be scared of making choices too fast or acting too impulsive. i imagine he’s very worried about behaving like ice king and thats something thats in the back of his mind most of the time, impacting his confidence in his own choices & actions. but also f&c sorta shows that he has that issue of trauma responses causing him to have emotional outbursts and make quick decisions. so thats something to keep in mind.

i think he's, like stuck in a state of being scared to do things without thinking really hard abt them but then sometimes he does that and then he usually regrets it and feels really awful afterwards. not always guilty-awful even. f&c seems to show him feeling angry a lot. to me simon deals not just with guilt over being ice king or recovering from being ice king or Having strong reactions to things or making choices he regrets… but also with Anger At The Situation - a lot of feeling confused and not sure what to do and overwhelmed, i think . (i like that they let him be angry and frustrated, not just sad and depressed. i think this is very realistic to trauma related emotional responses)

the other thing abt simon is he tends to follow other people's lead on a lot of things. i think he just likes not having to deal with the pressure of making decisions. he seems more inclined to lead around f&c than around, like, finn, though. and betty. but i think that’s in part because he was taking on a protector role w them. but yeah. he does a lot of crazy shit in f&c but very noticeably does not really act as a lead decision maker. until they get to the vampire world and they get attacked for a second that man is yelling orders and breaking a chair over his knee and pulling out a pocket knife to carve it into a stake lighting fast. which i loved that. i loved that he gained so much confidence from being in Panic Mode when confronted w vampires Because those where something he had to deal with in the apocalypse when raising marcy. he had to know what to do for marcys sake. other than that tho he's usually making suggestions at most. and agreeing to do scary crazy shit lmao . EXCEPT he decides on his own in secret to try and contact golb . hehe (motivated by wants to see his wife)

(it also seems like when he feels more confident in something he's much more capable of making choices. (makes sense) he wasnt paralyzed by anxiety when going on that research expedition with betty, probably because he was literally getting a phd (or had a phd, the show was so weird abt that) in that subject. makes sense he knows what he's doing. and also is interesting bc in ep2 of fionna and cake when he goes on an Adventure with finn he's very scared and nervous, but then talks about how he "used to be quite the adventurer in [his] day", which fits into the theme f&c had w his character where he feels out of place and less confident bc his whole ass profession isn't really relevant anymore, and everything is so different from how it used to be. so yeah. current simon has even less self confidence and confidence in his own decision making than Back In The Day simon bc of that)

id like to say that…. i think that the fact that it took betty only a few years to summon and eldritch god to free simon from his curse meanwhile it took simon 12 years to get to the point where he kidnapped a guy to use in a summoning ritual to talk to betty is interesting. bc i really do think they both love each other, and are both obsessive and co dependent. but betty went off the deep end so fast, meanwhile simon took a lot longer to do something comparatively Less Evil for betty. i think that a lot of this is because simon is just less confident in his choices, more nervous about making decisions, and *slower* at making decisions. in part because of a obsessive focus on details (i also think a buncha other stuff contributed to the difference in how long it took betty vs simon to do differing levels of fucked up shit for eachother but Yeah that’s the relevant part.)

i wouldn't say betty is a "think about the big picture, ignore the details" person though, necessarily. maybe compared to simon she is, but she's still a huge fucking nerd. she's an academic! to me she's someone who takes issues and situations that are more subjective and translates them into concretely structured language in order to guide herself through what actions she should take (my friend responded to this with “so what youre saying is betty took a philosophy class and was like ‘aw yes! Math!’” and yeah that is exactly what im saying)

i feel like canon sort of implies this, and definitely doesn't Not Imply It, but i also think canon didn't flesh out her character very well, so in a lot of ways im making my own assertions. but i think she's the type of person who likes to view things in ways that are ....not necessarily less complicated, but more concrete? like she can handle an uber complicated math problem with ease, but the way a math problem is complicated is entirely different from the way a social interaction is complicated, you know. and she's way better equipped for the first one.

so, basically, i think betty would be like: Dosent see the bigger picture.... but in a different way from simon, where instead of getting caught up on and overwhelmed by all the little details, she picks a specific angle to view the situation and then focuses on That, often to the detriment of viewing things from a wider, more complex and nuanced perspective. so better at seeing the bigger picture than simon, but still can miss a Lot…

i also feel like she leans towards viewing things as "identify a problem/issue, then find away to eliminate it" and "identify a goal, and find a way to reach it" . like i feel like she'd tackle social and personal situations in this way. it's not like she can't do things for fun or anything, but like, if she upset simon she'd go into Solving A Problem Mode and be like: “The issue is Simon Is Upset. The goal is Make Simon Not Upset. First i have to identify Why simon is Upset, and then how to make him Not Upset. This is The Current Goal I Must Complete.” like, not in an abstract sense. like shes literally narrating that to herself. i think she likes to focus in on  "what's wrong here and how do i fix it" as opposed to dwelling on emotions and exploring nuance. (which may be a contributor to how she ended up in that “there’s so little me left anymore” state by temple of mars: she was so focused on Fixing the Problem that she didn’t allow herself to really process her feelings too deeply and that took a toll on her mental health.)

simon is maybe more aware of nuance, which could be part of why he gets caught up on details because he's like "this CANT be properly categorized into something more straightforward, there's actually a billion TRILLION little details and that is stressful". like simon desperately wishes things could be simplified down more but is usually like "actually no, a million things are happening actually". he's like me he would get upset if asked to rate his pain or feelings on a number scale at the doctor (i can’t do that shit for the life of me. Those things are far too complicated to put on a number scale in my eyes). meanwhile betty just will force things into concrete categories and steps and factors that Make Sense To Her with intense fervor and if she starts to have a "this is too complicated to address" moment she feels threatened and then tries very hard to reprocess things in a way that is easier, or just does her best to ignore the things that make stuff too complicated to address

i think betty tends to view things in medium-sized chunks that incorporate some but Not All details in a situation, and that she cares about small details and being thorough but feels like accomplishing the goal is the most important thing, so is willing and able to make a quick decision if she feels it's the only choice. like. she had a limited time before the portal closed, and she chose to jump through it, because she thought "the problem is that im not with simon. simon is on the other side of the portal. ill go there" it's not that she doesn't like to think things through. she loves to think things through! its just that OVERALL she is a Doer who wants to solve the problem and thinks taking action and doing something is way better than sitting there and missing an opportunity. betty will think through the details if she has time, but if she doesnt, she just breaks things down into whatever is most easy to digest and process, and then takes the option that seems.like it will get the most desired outcome based on the available info. and also shes just very confident and headstrong. and THATS.  why she punched bella noche

In my eyes betty likes having rules and defined, structured processes about what to do or how to deal with stuff. and she dosen’t really like changing those. she's very autistic. she hates change i think. so does simon. but i think that simon would be more likely to be like: the change in situation is so upsetting that it's making it harder to think and process things, so he just gets overwhelmed and has an even harder time addressing whatever is happening or comprehending it. meanwhile betty is quick to try and find the easiest way to rerout her thinking to fit the new change, she's just really fucking pissed off and stressed out about it (part of this to me is she hates feeling powerless & hates feeling like she might fail). she copes with changes in her surroundings by finding a way to connect the changed situation as well and as fast as possible with her pre existing methods of tackling situations. i think bettys also worse at handling changes in people than changes in situation. to quote my friend when we where texting about this “Situations dont have feelings”.

Like. Betty has so many skills. so much knowledge. but isn’t great with people. And she gets to know people and figures out how to understand them and then THEY CHANGE??? ILLEGAL. and so… like…this is literally her whole thing with simon!! elements seems to imply that betty originally views things as "simon is cursed, i have to fix the curse". but when she makes an attempt to meet simon where he’s at and try to interact with him as ice king, she is unable to handle it. she is upset that he is different, so much so that she concludes the only way to view things is to see them as separate people, even though it was implied that she wasn't doing that before! she was approaching it like he was Simon With Memory Loss…..but then she does her villain betrayal scene and now she's all "things will be back to just me and simon, and you won't exist" . meaning before she directly started interacting with him, she was able to view him as simon, but when she did interact with him for an extended period of time and found out how different he had become, she felt so threatened by this that the only way she could handle it was by switching her view in order to not have to confront the idea that simon could have changed that much. it also meant switching her view to a place where she would be okay hurting simon. but when he starts to protest, get upset, ask what's wrong, and worst of all, insist that he's worthy of respect, that starts to stress her out and she has to talk out loud to herself to reassure herself that she's doing the right thing

and in that scene simon goes "i don't know who this simon guy is, im ice king", which i think is a Big line - he's responded to simon in the past, but doesnt always. Like. he's inconsistent in whether or not he's aware that's a way of referring to him, which makes sense bc he seems to have memory lapses where he remembers things fine one minute and forgets them the next, them remembers about them way later. anyway having him say that simultaneously provides a Confirmation of bettys new perspective, but it also… isn’t meant to. i feel like, to the audience, its saying that "simon has changed so much, he's entirely different now. and this is the way things are, and betty should accept this, but she cant" . to betty its telling her she’s right, but that kind of sucks, because she’s not totally sure how much she wants to be right (she dosen’t want this to be simon, but she also dosen’t want simon to be gone)

(i think the idea of betty Swapping her perspective abt simon during elements as a coping strategy to deal w the panic of What If Simon Is Different + the moral dilemma of potentially hurting him fits nicely into the "betty has bpd" interpretation . my girl is splitting)

(also ik many people interpret simon and ice king as Literally being entirely different people but tbh i think that is way less interesting and doesn't make a lot of sense with the canon. but also ik this is partially because what people consider to be "different people" is subjective.  like it depends somewhat on ur perception of identity and stuff. also having different interpretations is valid and fair and all that - and adventure time is often very loose in its text and there’s lots of ways to interpret it. but whatever man im just saying my feelings and That is and Always Will Be the Same guy to me and i think that perspective is waay more interesting to explore than simon getting possessed by an alternate personality or whatever. so im just going under that interpretation….. i think some ppl would perceive the "im ice king" line as being a conformation of them as separate people but to me it's a more abstract representation of the idea that a Drastic Change has taken place that Cannot be reversed!!.... which. Ok eventually it is but tbh i doubt they even knew how they'd end the show by this point and i still think in the context of elements it still works very well as a way driving home both how betty is Not Handling the Situation Well while also making you empathize with her bc u also know how hard that must have been for her to hear)

i think betty is very person-oriented in a unique way!!she's codependent while also being low empathy, introverted, and in many ways socially inept,  which is an interesting combo! i really get the vibe that she has always struggled socially and had trouble fitting in, so attaches really heavily to people who she does feel a connection to, and works really, really hard to maintain the relationships she has. i like to think she’s scared of rejection…

i think simon is much more empathetic, emotion-driven, and in tune with others than betty, but i also think he can be Very bad at actually understanding other people on many levels - like with his obliviousness to betty being interested in him romantically until she spelled it out for him, or to the impact of bettys earlier sacrifices. simon also, with the mission to get the crown in f&c, despite his empathetic nature and love for his friends, does not seem to consider that putting the crown on would upset his friends. This shows a "focusing on one thing and missing something else" scenario, and perhaps more of a "thinking abt the big picture" (saving f&c's world) over the details (friends would be sad) thing. so that's interesting. (although i think part of this example in particular stems from his self hatred preventing him from really thinking that his friends would be upset if he did that. but in a sense it is focusing on big picture over details). So theres some nuance there i think

BUT Anyway, i think this issue probably is mainly with him struggling to read people, or fully understand others perspectives, despite caring deeply about people and feeling Upset when he can tell other people are Upset. he cares and he feels very emotionally connected to people, especially people he cares about…. he just isn't that great at picking up on things sometimes. (also. Worth noting, i think its def shown that while simon may be very caring towards his friends and is a generally nice and approachable, well meaning person who wants whats best for other people. He still is very capable of Hating People and Doing Bad Things On Purpose. Don’t want to ignore that. also hes very desensitized to bad things happening in many respects lmao. So its not like hes just always super nice and caring and amazing. He still murdered choose goose to death and That is via the power of choose goose being annoying and Simon Loving Betty)

Betty also struggles to understand other people but instead of being downright oblivious to certain things or being unsure and nervous she finds relating to people and understanding their actions and emotions to be actively difficult and makes an active effort to understand people in a bit of a scientist-looking-at-a-subject way. Which can be helpful sometimes and less helpful other times. like. it's good that she has a way to navigate social interactions . but also that way of addressing things isn't always conductive to a healthy relationship, especially when she doesn't really let simon in on the fact that she's making these sort of analyses where she's like "what will maximize Simon Being Happy and how do i accomplish this" sometimes to her own detriment.  simon is just like "wow betty is so confident and good at knowing what she wants" meanwhile betty is like "i will make the best choice For Simon" betty i think is better than simon at reading people but not good at Empathizing With Others Emotions or really Understanding or relating to the emotions behind their actions .

she also is shown to, despite caring So much about simon, not be very considerate or caring towards others (not the same as being low empathy & etc dw im not equating them. Its just on the topic of How She Views Others!!!). To be fair, we don’t see nearly enough of her interacting with people besides simon, but i like to think that she just sorta struggles to really care about and have compassion for Random People but deeply cares about those she is Really close too (but as far as we know, thats just simon)

OVERALLi think they see the world very similarly in some ways and very differently in others and it's an interesting balance. also they are both Autistic. In cconclusion !!

betty

likes to break things down into concrete concepts because she struggles to comprehend more subjective and nuanced experiences, especially in social situations + Feels more comfortable approaching things from a “scientific” perspective because it is familiar and easy for her to navigate; threatened by uncertainty and comforted by things that are more straightforward and well-defined

doesn't dwell on things a ton (esp not as much as simon) because she's very goal-oriented and focused on the Now. she wants to get to the next step. that often then means ignoring Her Own Feelings Or Needs if she deems Other Things to be more relevant or important than them (not good for your mental health) + this also means she’s better at making quick decisions! she cares about details and prefers to have All The Relevant Info but is willing and able to cut things down to a “wider-picture” that helps her make whatever choices will help her achieve her goal - that wider picture just may not always be the Full Actual wider picture.

struggles to put herself in other people's shoes - finds it easier to view herself as an outside party with the goal of achieving the ideal outcome in a social situation. In general has low empathy and struggles to understand/relate to others feelings, which impacts her perspective on things and how she handles/views situations.

(not really mentioned earlier but idk where else to put it:) i also think she has that Autism Trait where you focus in on a specific goal you want to achieve and struggle to focus on anything else until it's accomplished (and that that sort of thinking pattern happened with curing simons curse). where you put off doing anything, even things you could do, until something that you Need to happen (according to your brain, not the real world) happens.  Betty put off being person until simon was saved. she put Everything on hold until she accomplished her mission. and this is in a way a form of not seeing the bigger picture, because its overly focusing on a specific thing at the expense of others

(bettys better at balancing seeing the details & the big picture in a sense, but more like. she picks a medium sized chunk of what is going on and focuses on that and acknowledges details when able to but is willing and able to make split second decisions based on little info and is confident in doing so. but whereas i think simon might have more of a "sees the whole big picture but then gets caught up on the details" thing going on, i think betty just straight up focuses on One Portion of something, of varying sizes, which could or could not he considered a "detail", but then almost completely ignores everything else, viewing things as individual challenges or events that need to be addressed before anything else can be)

simon 

is someone who really likes to think things through, and can easily get hung up on details and can easily get overwhelmed by those details and sent into a state of anxiety-fueled-spiraling or decision making paralysis

this is worse probably for Current simon because he’s also Trying To DIstance Himself from his identity as ice king, and as ice king he had no impulse control and thought things through very little. so simon likely puts even more pressure on himself to think things through! unfortunately hes also Going Through A Lot Emotionally and sometimes that’s too much and he Dosen’t think things through and just acts on how he’s feeling. And that makes him feel Worse about himself and just Everything in general

he is more confident with his decision making skills if he feels more prepared/knowledgeable on the subject at hand or is taking on a caretaker role (like with marcy, or f&c). but currently he dosen’t have a lot of that going on so that kinda sucks for his self confidence. 

simon is better at empathizing with people than betty & at creating connections with others & is more caring towards people he dosen’t know that well - and so may consider Other People more in his perspectives on things. But on the other hand hes not always the best at reading people or understanding their perspectives, even if he feels emotional connections and cares about people, so he can easily overlook other people’s struggles or perspectives within an issue - even if he cares deeply about their wellbeing (very relevant to his relationship with betty)

he’s generally more emotion driven than betty, and dwells on & ruminates about his feelings, sometimes to the point of obscuring his understanding of a situation or his ability to engage with it. On The Other Hand this means he at least acknowledges how he’s feeling meanwhile betty is like “im classifying that as irrelevant information until further notice” lmao. 

he’s better at understanding nuance & subjectivity than betty but this contributes to his habit of getting-overwhelmed by everything & Overthinking

(simon focuses on details over the big picture overall. he easily gets caught up in details and panics. he traps himself in cycles of worrying about details that can paralyze him when making decisions, and so prefers to not have to make choices. BUT simons "paralyzed with fear of making decisions" state can often be overturned by the power of Having Strong Emotions and his decisions may be Less Good because of the power of not being great and understanding other people. he's very emotion-driven and currently suffering from a billion mental health issues so sometimes all that gets in the way of his natural over-thinking. hes got a better understanding of nuance than betty & is better at Empathizing with others and more considerate but not all too great at reading them or recognizing others Feelings or Behaviors)

I THINK I REPEATED A LOT IN THIS. AGAIN, KIND OF JUST RAMBLING. HOPEFULLY IT WAS SOMEWHAT COHERENT

[ruthlesslistener]

Honestly your analysis on Wyrm culture and PK gave me a lot of inspiration on how view him. I don’t mind him woobified if that’s how some fans like him, but really breaking him down, I can’t ignore the facts with him. I find myself enjoying viewing him in a more antagonistic role with how views himself and others. By Wym merits—regardless of how neurodivergent he is compared to most of his kind—he is a conqueror. His function is to build a kingdom and build it well.

I also love how you view him hating his Wyrm instincts and suppressing them, but at the end of the day, you can only fight your instincts so long.

I don’t want to ramble too much as I would probably just go on discussing Herrah and Lurien as well.

Very glad you enjoy my interpretation of him, anon! I've been writing stuff with him in it since like, November 2019 so it means a lot to hear that people like how I write him given the time I've put into trying to understand and flesh out his character from the hints we get in canon. He's a conquerer and he has some pretty terrible ideas about self-worth, but he loves so deeply and the results of that love are what make him truely monsterous. Very fun guy to play around with, esp. with the added 'dragon in man's clothing' deal he has going on.

Personally I dislike the more recent trend of woobifying him just bc he canonically felt super guilty about mass murder, but that's based entirely on the fact that I like him BECAUSE he's tragic and a deeply flawed, fucked up, terrible person, so it's more just not my thing. But I will take woobified PK ANY day over how the fandom was when I first joined, where people seemed to unanimously think he was the epitome of misogynistic evil intentionally abusive straight white male capitalist who kicked the vessels into the Abyss as well as being a colonizer of Hallownest, and if you liked him you'd have to list all his faults and say you don't support him every other breath and if you contradicted the fanon idea of him you'd get slammed for it (people thought that him being 'The Pale King' and his wife 'The White Lady' was direct proof that he was a colonizer who genocided the moths....when the reality is that they're just both literally white. I have seen only one person deal with this take with any sort of nuance, the rest was...oh boy it was bad). They're probably still out there and just have me blocked, but the trend of people viewing PK as a pathetic little man has increased to the point where I think they're in the minority now. Which is a relief, because while I can understand hating PK, you at least should get his character right. And he canonically IS a pathetic little man. I just want to kick him down a flight of stairs and set him on fire with a blowtorch rather than swing him around like a stinky little ferret

I'm ALWAYS down for hearing rambles about Herrah and Lurien though!!! Especially Lurien. Please god the Lurien fanclub is like 2.5 people we're dying like flies out here scoob