Another take on the TF2 Clone Theory:
Continuation to this.
When I was talking to people about the clone theory, they were always asking me about who were originals and who were clones. I didn't understand why that matters; they're all same people with the same memories of their pre-service past, right?
What I didn't understand is that people had entirely different take on how clones are made than I do. I've never even thought about the fetus tubes until someone specifically pointed out that scene in Emesis Blue... (I also didn't know cloning was a real life thing?? Not just sci-fi trope??)
So yeah I've always thought cloning was instant because it would also explain how respawn works. Classic "resurrection" either isn't the thing (lame) or just takes too much time to commit. However, the super cool very scientific respawn machine will use your remains + storage bio supply to quickly rebuild a new body (as it was at the assigning day) and put your consciousness into that body so you feel like you're living nonstop.
(at least that's the theory)
Also, to answer these questions:
They do remember their connections, their past and their memories. Memories of the past are the same.
Their families were not cloned, they aren't involved in this business in any way. They don't know.
However, to keep this secret from the mercs... Of course if both of the clones will speak to their families they will soon spot some weird things and inconsistencies (talking about things that seemed to never happen). Not even talking about visiting family on holidays, that's an obvious no-no.
So... First of all, a big deal is to make REDs and BLUs lives and experiences here as similar (ideally identical) as possible.
And second: I think their connection to the world is just very limited/prohibited. The telephone connection is entirely controlled by the Administration (Sniper has to drive far away to sneak talk to his parents). Letters are monitored, censored and withhold if necessary (or copied if they are FROM the family). No going home until the contract is due (many years??) etc...
Which contradicts comics in s lot of ways but you know what? I don't even care. Comics are an unreliable narrator anyways. I mean uh... I uh. I'll talk about it some other time.
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Okay so the quick version of this is: saw Two Of Us today, adored it even more than I adore the film, the choice to keep them in John's building worked really well to further highlight the mental health message the director talks about in his little note in the programme, the rooftop scene is somehow even more intimate and lovely in this version and the ending is even more painful! I'm gonna write down more under the cut about it all:
Playlist: The playlist before the show/during the interval is everything you would want it to be and it includes Monkberry Moon Delight which I feel like I never hear in public!
The overall experience was also just super wholesome, one thing I always love about Beatles events is the range of people there it just makes you feel like your part of such a special thing, so shout out to all the old women talking about Paul near me, the middle aged men in their Beatles shirts, and the girl behind me who was sooo excited to be there and I hope she got to meet the cast after like she wanted to! ALSO the Beatles drinks are so funny, idk why Ringo’s is just earl grey tea 😭
Performances: OKAY let’s get into it. So one of my only real complaints about the film is that although I think overall Jared Harris and Aiden Quinn do an amazing job but I do find the quality a little inconsistent (especially the accents) but Richard Short and Barry Sloane are soooo so good, the accents, the little verbal quirks (which also, kudos to the writer as well) and the physicalities are jarringly good at points, especially Barry Sloane’s John. I also feel like a lot of Get Back was watched in preparation because there were so many little things, like the way John plays with his hair that just took me right back to that. Sometimes with fictional Beatles things I’m constantly thinking about how you’re watching two people try to portray these real people, but I definitely found that they were convincing enough that I wasn’t thinking about it too much.
Outfits: I did find it kinda weird they went for the Get Back looks rather than how they looked in 76, I feel robbed of the New York City vest tbh but they did look great
Changes from the film: basically they cut out them going for the walk to the park and to Luigi’s and instead John sets up the table for them like they’re in a restaurant in his kitchen. I think it works really well because they play into John not wanting to leave the building, which just adds into that whole mental health thing, and I think it actually makes the rooftop scene more poignant when they get there, because it feels more like Paul has broken through a bit and coaxed him outside, even if it’s baby steps. Anyway, they still have all the same conversations really the script is just chopped up a bit.
One interesting thing is that the conversation that happens with the fan in Luigi’s still happens, but John sort of pesters Paul about whether he really thinks silly love songs should be number one, and it’s a nice extra layer to Paul’s insecurity which I enjoyed
Mental health conversations: I think going into it knowing that the director wanted to make this because of the mental health themes, specifically men’s mental health and how having someone to reach out to is so important, is really interesting. They definitely amped up John’s anxiety from the film, his fidgeting and little moments to himself where he’s trying to get himself together were just so palpable, and Paul talking about his depression after the Beatles broke up was even more raw and upsetting seeing it in front of you. My absolute favourite line in the film is ‘I’m thirty-five years old and I still feel like I’ve done something wrong’ and god, my heart just broke seeing it on stage, I think that’s such a common feeling, just that sense that you’re in trouble for something but you’re not really sure what? Anyway, I just loved Sloane’s delivery of it.
The Kiss: Okay, look I actually don’t care that much about the kiss in the film, I’m glad it’s in there as a little nod to John’s queerness but it really isn’t anything imo, but I liked it a lot more in this! For one thing rather than coming after a little play fight (which is still cute, don’t get me wrong) they do one of their silly dances where they’re spinning each other round etc, so the scene already feels more tender, and then John just kinda grabs him and it goes on a little longer than in the film. I still think it’s far from one of the most intimate moments in the show, but I do think they made it into something more here.
Rooftop scene: It’s just. It’s everything. They sit right at the front of the stage, facing each other, cross legged and Paul gives him the whole ‘I see a beautiful baby boy speech’ and it’s PERFECT, this was the moment I was most worried about them screwing up and it was perfectly delivered and they have this lovely big hug after it and it made my heart ache in the best way. And idk, if seeing some guy dressed up as Paul McCartney saying that we should focus on fun and get out our own heads and how we don’t have to stay stuck as the kids who were just scared and trying to survive, doesn’t do something for you, then we’re just very different people.
SNL scene: okay it’s pretty much the same but the way John is sleeping on Paul was everything, it wasn’t just a head on the shoulder he was fully laying back against Paul!!
The ending: this is just so brutal because Paul doesn’t leave the flat to get his guitar, he borrows one of John’s and so when Yoko calls and John starts doing the whole ‘I wish you were here, you’re the only one who stops me disappearing’ it’s literally…. In Paul’s face. And it hurts. Then at the very end they cut between John on the phone to Yoko and Paul on the phone to Linda, and so Paul says ‘I love you’ to Linda, then John says ‘I love you too’ to Yoko but it sounds like they said it to each other, and then Here Today plays. The fact most people didn’t appear to be crying baffled me quite frankly.
Yoko: They decided to have Yoko be the one who actually invited Paul, which felt like an odd choice and didn’t really add anything for me, but there we go
Okay I’m gonna shut up there because this is way too long and I doubt anyone’s read it but ahhhhhhhhh it was so good and you’re just all lucky I can’t text you because my friends have had much more incoherent versions of all this
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Did Lissa Go Back to Soren and Claudia After Leaving?
I’ve actually had this post saved up in my drafts uncompleted for over a month now, but I got inspired by this post to finally talk about the theory I’ve been developing.
Buckle in because this is going to be a pretty lengthy post.
It seems to me that a lot of people are confused, as was I initially, about how old Soren was supposedly when everything happened, from him first getting sick to his mom leaving and the events from Puzzle House taking place.
Seeing that the little boy he was depicted as in the show could barely even speak and seemed extradionarly young, a lot of people didn’t understand if he was supposed to be the same age as he was shown to be in Puzzle House.
A lot of people just kind of assumed with the show depicting him so young and small compared to how we saw him in the graphic novel, that the writers were just diverging from their original canon and switching up what ages they wanted Soren and Claudia to be when everything happened. And others have just assumed the writers must have forgotten what ages they initially showed them as or that this is just another one of those cases where the writers weren’t able to write a proper timeline of events.
But… there’s kind of a lot of issues I’ve found in the logic of both assumptions. There’s actually a lot of things the writers have put in the show and its corresponding graphic novels and short stories that could point to neither of those two options being the actual case. I also think it’s incredibly unfair to suggest that the writers must have just been so stupid to have made such a slip up, if they did make one.
Regardless of what’s true, however, the one thing that’s clear is that the inconsistencies with how the creators choose to portray Claudia and Soren’s ages throughout the series has stirred up quite a bit of confusion and conflict within the fandom. So the question must be asked. Why?
Why so many inconsistencies? Are these inconsistencies evident of some sort of issue on the writers’ part, like one of the possible ones that’s been suggested by others that I’ve listed above? Or are these inconsistencies more evident of how the writers have actually intended to cause such confusion in the fandom space for an ulterior purpose that has yet to be revealed?
So, having those questions in mind, I’ve done a little digging and I think I might have figured out what’s going on from my investigation. Or I at least figured out part of it.
Let’s get into it.
From what I’ve seen online, Soren’s age in particular seems to be the main focus within the discussion surrounding what the kids’ speculated ages were when everything happened. Probably because of how most of these events specifically revolve around him and the fact that we’ve mainly seen him at different ages from Viren’s perspective. So I’ll start by talking about him first.
We first see Soren as this little kid who can almost barely pronounce his words with ruffled up hair and chubby cheeks back in episode 2 of season 5.
And for a very large part of season 6 we see him to be of that same age and of that same physical description in the flashbacks.
We even get a retelling of the same scene we saw when this version of him was first introduced back in season 5 in season 6. And it seems safe to assume that this retelling is supposed to be more representative of what actually happened than what we saw from Viren’s dream sequence, given that it’s a lot more negative.
So, right off the bat, that might already be an indicator that Soren was this young at some point in the series of events between him first getting sick and what happened in Puzzle House and this isn’t merely a distorted view of young Soren from Viren’s perspective.
Besides Soren, we also do see Claudia at a younger age in the series compared to how she first appeared in the Puzzle House graphic novel a couple of times.
And even earlier than that as well, back in season 5 in Viren’s dream sequence.
I wouldn’t say she’s as young as she’s been shown in the flashbacks in season 6 when she had the pig tails, but I also don’t think she’s quite the same age as she was in Puzzle House. It does look like she’s wearing the same undershirt as she was in the graphic novel, so maybe she’s closer to her age in Puzzle House here. But I think she looks like she could be more in between. (I actually have a smaller theory that this is supposed to be showing Claudia and how she looked like when she first learned dark magic because of the whole “I’m following in your footsteps” motif here.)
For the majority of the scenes we’ve seen of Claudia as a little kid though, we’ve mostly just seen her with those pig tails. And we haven’t seen her nearly as much as we’ve seen Soren. So we’ve been kind of led to believe that was her age when most of the events with Soren getting sick and healed and their mom leaving took place. I mean, we quite literally see her chasing after her mom leaving when she was that little.
But… Claudia does not look to be that young in the Reflections story “Lost Child”.
In fact, Claudia looks like how she did in Puzzle House here. And her mom is riding horseback when she’s leaving, making the setting of this image seem entirely different to the one we saw in season 6 of what we assumed to be her mom leaving.
I saw some people claim that Scholastic has restrictions for what ages characters can take in comics, which I haven’t found a source at all for yet, but some people think that that might have messed some things up with their age depictions in the show. But, this image comes from their official website where they don’t have to be subjected to such restrictions. And I just don’t see why they wouldn’t adjust their ages or the timeline of events in the show to make everything line up.
Puzzle House was first announced in September of 2022 with cover art and previews before season 5 was released in August of 2023. Even though it wasn’t officially released till after season 5, they were clearly working on it and planning the story for a much longer time before the season came out. They would’ve had plenty of time to fix their storyline so that it would make sense. But they didn’t. They still choose to depict Soren much younger then how we saw him in the graphic novel, and later on Claudia too in season 6. And we haven’t really found a good reason yet for why they would want to diverge from their already established canon. So, what if it was intentional?
So when I first started investigating everything, I went back to episode 8 of season 6 to look for a certain image. Because I could have sworn I did see Soren aged up, like he was in Puzzle House, in one of Viren’s memories. Which initially confused me because I had no idea what age we were supposed to have figured he had been when everything happened. And I did find it. It was this lovely shot of their entire family.
And Soren does not at all look like how we’ve been seeing him in any of the memories the creators have been showing us thus far of Viren’s. He has a different hairstyle and looks less chibi like. And he looks a lot closer here to how he looked in Puzzle House.
And so did Claudia.
At first, I was left even more confused about what was happening. Because I thought Lissa left when they were way younger. But this image seems to imply that she could have still been with the kids when they were older. Older then in the image we saw of Lissa leaving. And, a lot like many others, I originally thought that they were just trying to completely disregard the fact that they depicted them way older in the graphic novel and were trying to pretend that they were way younger in the show. Because this is perhaps one of the only shots in the show that we get to see them to be around the same age as they were in the comics and reflections stories.
But the thing is, only a couple seconds before do we get this shot.
And in this shot, do they actually look like how we’ve been seeing them so far in Viren’s memories. As very little toddlers.
So… what is happening here? How old were they actually when everything was happening?
Well, let’s review everything we know so far. Soren and Claudia were first depicted older in the reflection story “Lost Child” back in May of 2023 and the Puzzle House graphic novel back in September of 2022 way before season 5 came out in August of 2023, so there was plenty of time for them to change their depicted ages in season 5 to align more with the ages we’ve been previously shown of them having. And there was a large enough gap between the release of season 5 and season 6 for them to fix any issues with their timeline and depictions of their ages if there were any. And, in spite of how young they were depicted mostly in seasons 5 and 6, we still do see them depicted as similar ages as they were in the reflection stories and comics, so that obviously indicates that the writers are very much aware of the differences in their shown ages between those different stories. And it overall just seems like it’d be way easier and convenient for them to keep them aged up in the series to align with the ages we’ve already been shown of them having when a lot of these events first occurred if that was what they really wanted.
None of this information seems to point to the creators making a mistake or an accident in their different depictions of Claudia and Soren’s ages throughout the series. If anything, it seems to point to the opposite. Because why would they make any of these decisions in the first place if they weren’t for a specific intended purpose?
So, why exactly were Soren and Claudia’s ages so inconsistent and why were they mostly shown to be so young in the series? I think there’s only one answer here that really makes sense. Because they never really had a fixed age when everything happened. It all happened over a very long period of time. Spanning from when Soren was perhaps, like, four and Claudia was about two or three all the way to when they were around ten or something.
And this might mean that we have also been misled on one other thing (although it’s likely more on many other things, but that’s not the point here). When their mom actually left. Because there’s a chance that she might have left when they were much older. Long after Soren was actually healed from his sickness.
Because, a) what was that image in the reflections story about? And b) what’s up with Soren, Claudia, and Viren all being so emotionally distraught in the Puzzle House graphic novel about Lissa leaving if she left such a long time ago?
Okay, before I start explaining my second point, I should probably clarify something here. I initially thought and claimed awhile back that Atticus said that everything happened during a span of a year. I was completely wrong and I don’t know where I got that idea from. (I might have gotten confused since I saw someone else suggest awhile back ago that Harrow and Sarai got together only 5 to 7 months after that scene of Viren and Harrow talking in season 6. But in retrospect, that doesn’t really make all that much sense. Not that it’s their fault for having that misunderstanding, they were probably as confused as I was on the passage of time between, well, everything that happened in Viren and the children’s lives. The writers really did make it seem like everything happened all at once, but there was probably a lot more space between all the events that occurred as I’m trying to examine and explain in this post.)
All that King Atticus says is that it all happened one after the other. But he in no way specified a time frame of when and of how long.
However, after rereading Puzzle House, I have found that there is an indication made about the time frame between some of these events. That being the time between them first exploring the Puzzle House and Lissa leaving them.
It’s implied here that it’s only been a couple of weeks since she left because it’s only been a couple of weeks since Claudia has started to act more emotionally off.
I mean, I know that he also says that she’s been acting odd since Kpp’ar disappeared too, which we now know from season 6 that he disappeared before Soren got healed and when he was likely smaller. (This is actually where things seem sort of weird to me and I have trouble understanding the timeline of events most. I feel like he should have gotten coined when they were older because of the clear influence he’s had in their lives. But maybe they were actually older when he did and the two scenes that we saw of Lissa leaving and Viren shutting out Soren happened before Viren got the staff and was still trying to figure out how to heal Soren. But I don’t know. Why would Viren start resenting Soren so early on before he even healed him yet? Why would Soren be so much older when he actually got healed if we have only seen him be heavily implied to be young when he did? Why would Lissa leave then in the very beginning of everything, unless maybe it was in immediate reaction to Viren taking advantage of her and using her tears? But then why would she leave if Soren was still sick? Maybe that’s why she came back?? Because she felt guilty?? Maybe Lissa officially left later when Viren got the staff and she found out that he might have done something to Kpp’ar ??? I don’t know. This is all just speculation and I’m just not sure. Anyways.) But the fact he specifies that it’s been weeks since she hasn’t been speaking a lot and that she seems a lot more affected by what’s happened in their lives, I feel like that’s more of a sign that that’s the time frame from when their mom first officially left to them being in the Puzzle House.
And if it had only been just a couple weeks since Lissa left before they went into the Puzzle House, then that would better explain the image from the reflections.
It would also explain why a lot of the conflict in the graphic novel revolved around Claudia struggling to come to terms with her feelings on her mom leaving them and why Viren is shown to be so emotionally distant in it.
Then there’s the other hints that have been made outside of the graphic novel and the flashbacks we’ve seen.
There’s the information that we know about how Viren made attempts to win back Lissa’s trust, most notably by using the Sunray Monarchs to change his corrupted appearance. But Lissa wasn’t won over. And there was a lot of conflict that grew between them as a result which eventually encouraged them to split.
Of course, Viren could have tried to change his appearance and gain Lissa’s trust before the image we saw of Lissa leaving in season 6. But I think it would make more sense if it happened afterwards so that they would be fighting for longer and it would be while Soren and Claudia were old enough to be able to remember it.
And, I mean, just stating the most obvious explanation here. It’s like what people have been saying. How could they ask them to make such an adult decision? How could Lissa and Viren ask their kids to choose between the two of them? Probably because they could actually make the choice at the time. They could actually articulate their words and were grown up enough at the time to understand what was happening. They weren’t as small as we might have been led on to think they were. They were much older when she officially left them.
Anyways, I’m sure that there’s even more evidence I haven’t picked out yet that could also be hinting to Lissa leaving at a later point in the kids’ lives then we’ve been led to believe. (I would try to gather more intel from the novels but I sadly do not own either one of the two as of right now.) But in general, those are some of my biggest pieces of evidence I have to support my theory.
So, this very significant scene showcasing when Viren first started to resent Soren…
Might have happened way before Lissa actually left. And, given this added context that she hadn’t left yet (or at least permanently left), this completely reframes this scene and what it means.
And, that just leaves what is still largely unknown.
What is happening here exactly?
Not only does it completely contradict the image from the reflection story, but it also just outright doesn’t really make sense on its own.
Where does this fit into the timeline and what is its relevance?
Is this supposed to be showing Lissa trying to leave for the first time, even though she later on decided to go back, like I’ve been speculating? But then why would she go back? And why would she leave again only permanently that time if she chose to go back after the first attempt? What sparked her to try to leave both those times?
Truth is, I have some ideas and some of those ideas I’ve already listed and insinuated to having in this post, but overall I quite simply don’t know. The only thing I’m truly certain of is that this image alone suggests that there is a lot more going on here than we fully know about yet.
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