#dungeons and discourse

[feyosha]

Unsafe

Spells and Artefacts

• Lantern of Diogenes (lamp): Forces the bearer to relentlessly detect and forcefully reject falsehood. Extended exposure may cause Apostasy, Atheism, Antiauthoritarianism, Public Nudity, Obscenity, Poor Grammar, Debasement of Currency, and Ostracism.

• Curse of The Chinese Room (spatial curse): Renders the inhabitants unable to subjectively comprehend language. They retain the ability to respond coherently, and will continue to do so, disguising the Curse. They will effortlessly answer questions and converse, despite having no subjective clue what is being said, even by them.

• Laplace’s Demons (set of figurines): “Observes” all quantum mechanical interactions within its sphere of influence, collapsing waveforms and rendering local Reality Classically Deterministic. Exposure to this “Determinism Field” interferes with cognition in higher mammals and with cellular metabolism in all living organisms, as chemical equilibria are shifted by Entropy behaving Classically

[whumpster-fire]

Broke: Chilchuck Tims is child coded.

Woke: Chilchuck Tims isn't child coded, he's a middle-aged, divorced man with grown up children.

Bespoke: Chilchuck Tims cannot be accurately described as either "child coded" or "not child coded" because he is a deliberate commentary on the idea of "child coding" itself.

Chilchuck, and half-foots in Dungeon Meshi in general, are given significantly more neotenous proportions and appearances (e.g. larger heads and eyes, rounder faces) than the other races. This is not universal for depictions of hobbits / halflings in Tolkien / D&D inspired fantasy fiction. Compare Chilchuck relative to the "tallmen" (humans) in Dunmeshi to how small races are drawn in something like Legend of Vox Machina (many of those characters are gnomes but whatever) or in basically any official D&D art. It was an intentional artistic decision to make him look like that. This is reinforced when he's temporarily transformed into a tallman (human) and in addition to becoming much taller he gains features that make him look more visibly middle-aged (stubble, eye bags / wrinkles, a more oval face) that he doesn't have as a half-foot. See also Marcille's transformed form and supplemental drawings of what all of the main party would look like as other races. However they do NOT look indistinguishable from actual children as portrayed by Dunmeshi's artstyle and have distinguishing features e.g. larger ears.

Chilchuck is frequently mistaken for a child in-universe, or treated / perceived as one even by members of other races who know he's a half-foot, and he hates this. His infantilization and that of half-foots in general isn't just a running gag, it's a significant plot point and source of discrimination. Like when the party gets impersonated by shapeshifters copying everyone based on the others' memories of them, and most of the Chilchuck clones look and behave more childish than the real one, and they almost get away with it, even though his party should know better than to think of him as a kid.

The narrative consistently takes the position that the people infantilizing Chilchuck are wrong, and are being ignorant/racist.

Conclusion: Chilchuck is definitely not "child-coded" in the way that a 700 year old shapeshifter that looks and behaves indistinguishably from a little kid for contrived reasons. However, he is intentionally designed to make it seem plausible for people who know he's an adult to still not fully believe it and this can make the viewers fall for it too. Which I guess is "child-coding" in a sense. But the message the work is trying to send is very clearly "Don't decide that grown-ass adults are equivalent to children and treat them like children because they have physical characteristics that remind you of a child you dipshit."

While hobbits aren't real and Chilchuck's traits that get him mistaken for a child are exaggerated compared to the vast, vast majority of real people, infantilization of grown-ass adults due to ableism, racism, or just people being dumbasses who forget short people exist is a real issue, and if you start shit with people for shipping Divorced Dad Chilchuck Tims with other characters or whatever you are displaying the exact attitude that's being criticized.

[daily-izutsumi]

[confusedmothboy]

can yall guess my favorite character

[prokopetz]

"Guy who acts like you're personally oppressing them when you acknowledge the existence of tabletop RPGs that aren't Dungeons & Dragons" versus "guy who's like 'oh my god, just play a different game', but then their rec list consists exclusively of Dungeons & Dragons clones" – fight!

[clearancecreedwatersurvival]

Guys :((( we have to cancel all shipping in dungeon meshi :(((((( yeah turns out all the ships are problematic :(((((((((((((

Falin/Marcille is problematic because marcille is only 60 years old which by elf aging standards means she’s a minor :((( yeah I know that she’s actually a half elf whose rate of development is extremely different from full blooded elves, but we can’t be acknowledging any sort of nuance in these things. Plus it’s bad and wrong to eroticize their relationship at all cause then you’re a sapphic fetishizing yuri-enjoyer and you’re disrespecting Kui-sensei. ☹️

Laios/Kabru is problematic because people headcanon kabru as trans which is Obviously fetishizing trans people :(((( plus the inherent power dynamic with a king fucking his advisor? Not okay. 🙅

Kabru/Mithrun is problematic because ewwwwww huge age gap 🤮

Chilchuck/Marcille is problematic because yuck she’s basically his daughter gross

Chilchuck/Senshi is also problematic though because chilchuck is minor coded. Yes I know he’s a grown ass man with an estranged wife and adult children but he Looks vaguely childlike and if you draw fanart of them it would look Super Bad! Children who don’t know who the characters are could see that and get groomed!!!! Think Of The Children!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anyway in light of all of this it’s clear that the only non-problematic ship is obviously shipping the Touden siblings together.

Stay safe and Always moralize shipping!!! Because dangerous evil people are out there right now waiting to force children to read their inappropriate smutty fanfiction, and We Must Think Of The Children. Yes even when it is clearly marked as explicit content for adults, we simply can’t allow anyone to have freedom of expression in fandom.

I am very smart and morally righteous. 😇

[deafmangoes]

Marcille and Falin are the obvious OTP, but I've been thinking about it and I don't think Marcille actually knows how she feels about Falin until after she disappears post-resurrection.

Even in that panel of them in the bath, Marcille is unsure. She pulls away - protesting that Falin should save her mana, but actually looking uncomfortable. Up until this point she's seen Falin as a friend - specifically, a young sister figure. You see it in the way she tutors Falin at the school, or the way she insists on looking after her. It's very much a "protective big sister" vibe.

But after she disappears, Marcille's attitude shifts. She was already willing to break laws for Falin, but now she'll do far worse: she'd deal with the devil itself to bring her back. Her stint as Lord of the Dungeon is all about her feelings for Falin. It's her complete motivation at this point.

And after all is said and done, Marcille's approach to the restored Falin is much more affectionate and direct. Maybe she still doesn't realise it's romantic love - after all, her succubus was a very fictional elf hero stereotype - but it's different than before.

Falin is harder to read, since we don't get to see as much of her, but her affection for Marcille is pretty evident. Also maybe not love just yet, but there's something there.

Anyway, I reckon Falin's leftover dragon bits probably extended her lifespan considerably, so they'll still have each other in many decades' time.

also post-canon Falin deffo has a cock

[dresdencodak]

I'm really glad I stumbled on you Tumblr and your work. It's amazing and engaging, and just good and fun.

Now, an actual question!

I only know of Dark Science - do you have other works you'd like for people like me to discover? Or, for someone who enjoys Dark Science, are there other works by other artists you enjoy and would like to share with people?

Thanks so much! While Dark Science is my main work, I did make a decent amount of comics before starting that. In my archives page on my site, you can find those older comics. Most of them are one-offs (ie: single-page stories), and this is actually how Kim was introduced.

There are also a couple more recent one-off comics that I made parallel to Dark Science like Kingdom of the Last.

The other series that's functionally a prequel to Dark Science is Hob, aka "The Tomorrow Girl." At 28 pages it's a lot shorter than Dark Science, but it's a little adventure that sets up a lot about Kim, like how she first became a cyborg and who her dad is, etc.

Hope that's helpful!

-Sen

[lylahammar]

can I be real I think that people are kinda catastrophizing about the ao3 m/m tag surpassing the f/f tag for dungeon meshi.

like I've been seeing soooo many posts the last few days lamenting about how fandoms are misogynistic and will always prefer mid yaoi ships even if the main ship of the series is lesbian and the women are well written........ but yall realize that the m/m tag surpassed the f/f tag because it's 3 different m/m ships that just barely outpaces the f/f tag which is almost entirely taken up by just farcille? I literally see nonstop farcille content and love for the women on here (I can't speak for twitter or any other social media wasteland bc I don't go anywhere else lmao). Everyone take a deep breath, trust me I get the fear but the dunmeshi fandom is appropriately filled with woman enjoyers I promise

[friendlyneighborhoodamara]

Ngl, as a Farcille fan and WOC, a fair bit of the discourse about there being more M/M fics than F/F fics on AO3 annoyed me because while I agree fandom misogyny is awful, I feel it gave some Farcille fans license to be racist or homophobic.

Like, I remember there being a LOT of anger at Labru specifically, and while I do prefer yuri ships over yaoi ships (nothing personally, I'm just a bi trans girl), given how much anger was directed at a ship involving a dark-skinned MOC because it "overshadowed" a ship with two white blonde women, I can't help but raise an eyebrow at a certain subset of Farcille fans.

This is exacerbated by how some Farcille fans hated on Toshiro due to him "getting in the way" of their ship, portraying him as either weak or worthless (both negative stereotypes of East Asian men) or a sexist thug who wants to violate Falin's happiness or consent (which is...a gross misread of Toshiro's character, and a rather racist interpretation of a MOC's crush on a white woman).

Idk, I feel white Farcille fans need to remember that they're white. Shit was wild for several months and I hope things get better.

[dropofsoup]

Saw this on Twitter and my first thought was the Laios and Shuro fight

[froggypunpun]

This is the last thing... i will never post about ship discourse in dunmeshi from this point forward. But i needed to get this off of my chest.

Stop blaming fandom wide issues on ppl who like ships you don't like.

If you see a labru shipper call mithrun a burden and a dog, it's not because they like labru. It's because they're albeist.

If you see a kabumisu shipper push kabru to the backburner in favor of centering a white character, it's not because of kabumisu, it's because they're racist.

If a farcille shipper treats Toshiro like hes a disgusting predatory perv who Falin hates, it's not because they like farcille. It's because they're racist.

"Labru shippers call mithrun a burden and an old racist dog!!" No joke ive literally seen kabumisu shippers do the same thing

"Kabumisu shippers get pissy whenever kabru and laios are shown together in official art!!" Labru shippers do the same thing when kabru and mithrun are together

Ive seen shippers from all groups treat Kabru like he's a "sociopathic horrible person" (real words from dunmeshi fans). Ive seen Labru shippers admit that they only like labru so they treat Kabru like a sex object. Ive seen him be bastardized as "downbad" and horny 24/7 from both labru and kabumisu shippers, completely ignoring the intricacies of why he acts the way he does around Laios and Mithrun and instead dumbing it down to sex.

Ive seen yall all act funny about Shiro. Making him out to be a despicable person bc he said something bad while starving and tired. Calling him shallow for liking Falin as if they weren't literally friends. Acting like a guy in like, the fucking middle ages immediately going to proposal rather than dating is some horrible shocking thing for that time period. Villainizing him for traits that are present in pretty much every character as well.

None of these problems are limited to specific ships. Racism and albeism is a huge problem in this fandom and im gonna need yall to get that in ur heads instead of starting stupid shit. And just bc a shipper does something dumb and petty like getting mad when two characters from the ship they don't like are together, it doesn't mean that entire ship is the issue. Every fandom has stupid ppl who take shit too seriously. Some ppl who like your ship are bound to be like that too. Shut up pls omg

[quaggyday]

Its fine if you see Kanji as straight or use she/her for Naoto. I appreciate how Kanji's storyline is about accepting that its okay to not have masculine hobbies and how queerness and toxic masculinity are linked. I appreciate how rooted in a Japanese subtext Naoto's story is and how your going to have to understand it from a different perspective of a different life. Both of these characters I like and find interesting.

But I swear, if another Youtuber or other says in some variation "Thinking Naoto or Kanji's stories are queer means your MISSING THE POINT OF THE THEMES OF TRUTH IN P4" or that as they are in canon their arcs are perfect and not needing any sort of change and are not at all at least a little dated or problematic" I am going to start screeching.

[saitoakirachan-fangirls]

I 90% blame the few la/bru BNF (Big name fans, aka fandom accounts with a big following) for the way Mithrun is being talked about in the fandom right now. Prior to the airing of the anime, and before those accounts were made/got popular, Mithrun was seen as a tragic but still intimidating and funny character. Or a babygirl, depending.

Now, he's an ugly senile dog with permanent eye stains who is too old and decrepit to function.

Making fun of his eyes is insanely ableist. No need to elaborate tbh.

He is unable to function because of severe trauma, not because of his age. He is the elven equivalent of 37, not 79. If we calculate the half-foot/tallmen age according to their average lifespan, then Chilchuck is about 35. Literally nobody treats Chilchuck like a grandpa, because he is not dysfunctional. Because he is not disabled.

He is incredibly competent at his job. He needs assistance to live, but he is one of, if not the, strongest fighters in the whole series. Reducing him to his disabilities while simultaneously degrading said disabilities is incredibly telling of the posters' character.

Mithrun is being dehumanized and people are uncritically repeating these jokes because it's funny in the moment. It's one thing to poke fun at your faves, it's another to be so unbelievably callous about a character's trauma by reducing it to only jokes.

Chief, I'm gonna level with ya; I'm not going to believe you actually like him when all you ever do is call him a dog that needs to be put down, or act super excited when someone agree with you on how ugly he is, or say that he's fundamentally unsuited for relationships because his disability will always burden his partner.

Just be honest and say you hate him

[faggoatquixote]

not so friendly reminder that “grandpa mithrun” is ableist anti ship propaganda by bnf labru shippers on twitter and mithrun is in the same age range as chilchuck and senshi he is simply disabled and is constantly dehumanized by both fandom and characters in the story

[dunmeshistash]

Marcille is/was a teacher to Falin, and I read somewhere that romantic student/teacher relationships are a big taboo in Japan. Like more so than over here. But they were also romanticized so they show up fairly often in anime. I guess what I'm saying is, maybe Marcille is unwilling act on any romantic feelings for Falin because of this taboo? (As well as Falin being 23 just feeling too young to an elf)

Well, nothing indicates she was an actual teacher, she's described as an student and as a researcher but not as a teacher. Here's some discussion about her role at the school

When she corrects Laios she says she wasn't a student but a researcher but in her descriptions she's called a honor student.

Falin is the only one that calls her a teacher (as far as I remember) but I don't think she meant a literal teacher at the school

In the original she calls her 恩師 which is like a respected former teacher? I don't know if it has implications about her role at the school but nothing indicates she was ever actually in a teacher position (as far as I know), Falin might just mean that Marcille mentored her in magic and she respects her for it?

But anyway, I don't know if japanese sensitiveness would count on Dungeon Meshi in that aspect, Ryoko Kui treats her characters as westerners and even puts their sensitivities against japanese ones with the use of Shuro, like with the hugging section of daydream hour or when Mickbell and Chilchuk are shocked at him for proposing

Marcille and Laios come from the same continent and the place she lived was a small village in fantasy europe so I don't think japanese taboos would count for her

Marcille also only mentions seeing Falin as a little kid and doesn't talk about her as a student (and in context to me she's saying she'll never be too big (too grown up) to sleep together with her) I think she does see Falin as someone younger but idk if she actually see's her as a kid the same way she sees Chilchuck as a kid

Anyway I usually don't answer shipping questions but I wanted to answer this one cause of the cultural differences bit.

Gotta remember using drugs is also very frowned upon in japan and Kui has drugs in her worldbuilding without demonizing it's use, so I don't think general taboos would affect the worldbuilding like that?

Also there's nothing in the story about Marcille's feelings towards Falin that would indicate she's holding back in any sense so I don't think it would fit. Headcanon is free from canon shackles tho.