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sairenharia · 2 months

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MK's First Dad

The snakes represent my many, many dads!

Why yes, MK, they do represent your many, many dads.

Or rather, one dad, many times.

This dad.

So very clearly, the world of Lego Monkie Kid has been experiencing timeloops. Nuwa made MK to collect the stones and when the cycle of the world ends, he yeets himself into the pillar, and restarts everything from the beginning. Without outside factors, everything happens the same as it always did.

The Celestial body establishes itself, demons run amok, the journey happens, society builds, further and further until at least the Jade Emperor and maybe the other Guardians reach the end of their life and the Heavenly Pillar starts to crumble and has to be rebuilt and start the cycle.

Until THIS cycle where the Nine Headed Demon decided to wake MK up early.

And you know what?

I believe every single word the NHD said after he revealed himself was one hundred percent the complete and utter truth. He never ONCE lied to MK or any of the others, at least not from his perspective.

From the explanation of his motives, to the idle comments.

We see this in what he says he's doing. NHD said he isn't trying to push MK to a choice. What he wants is for MK to MAKE a choice. If MK chooses to sacrifice himself, NHD said he's going to save everyone, affirming his choice. By that same token, when MK comes back out of the pillar, he says he choose to face the end together in a supportive tone, affirming his choice again!

NHD didn't lie. Whatever choice MK made, he supported and encouraged MK in it.

His tune only changed, ONLY changed when he was terrified he was going to be trapped in the cycle again. And even then, it was only a brief moment. Once he saw he didn't have to be trapped, he was back to supporting MK, and he was relieved.

Even with the way NHD interacts with the others shows this. NHD allowed them to SPEAK. He only interfered when they tried to PHYSICALLY take MK's choice from him. NHD was fully enabling them to convince MK to make the choice they wanted him to make. They were allowed to persuade, because it was still ultimately MK who got to decide what he was going to do.

From start to finish, NHD had two goals. One was to leave the cycle, which he saw as happening either way. Either everything fell apart, or he had a way out when the cycle reset. MK's moved changed his gateway and that's when he got upset, but he had no issue with MK's CHOICE, just the fact he would be trapped again.

And two, that very choice.

But why? NHD manipulated Azure. He manipulated the Yama Kings. Potentially a lot of people in heaven and those below, which is pretty against people making choices. So why does he care so much about MK's choice?

Because the cycle wasn't supposed to end for another eon.

Because this cycle wasn't the first, it wasn't the second, and it likely wasn't even the hundredth.

Which means MK didn't have Pigsy. He didn't have Tang, or Mei, or Sandy, or anyone else in his life. They were long dead by the time the Harbinger is released in every other cycle.

Now with MK having longer to cook, he may be fully grown. Or he may be a kid again, but I think with what NHD said about wanting to give the Harbinger a chance to have a life, the Harbinger is usually grown enough to be able handle the trials.

But he's probably not got a lot of personality going on. Nuwa may have chosen an extreme way to maintain the pillar, but she does seem to be trying her best to minimize suffering. She is repeating the cycle because its the only way she can see in protecting the world from chaos. She makes Harbinger because a sacrifice is necessary for the pillar, to remain as a building block like I think she is. Harbinger has to be someone who EXISTS, but if he's largely a blank slate, then the loss is not so great.

Harbinger lives to sacrifice himself. He has no family. He has no life to lose.

But this means someone who is blank and potentially easy to lead astray.

This is why the trials. Because really, Harbinger is suppose to just live, grab the stones, yeet. Why does he need TRIALS? But then there is what the trials actually teach, as we know them.

A trial of resolve, to push through to the end despite the dangers. To endure danger and hardship to the end. Then the other trial, of focus on self, on what he needs to do in the present. But what's interesting is the DANGER of this one. Its not to Harbinger, but whoever is with him.

These trials are to make sure Harbinger has the nerve to go through danger and hardships to get to the end of the quest...and to keep his focus to PROTECT OTHERS.

Harbinger is made to be a sacrifice. He is made to protect. He is made to save. What happens if he sees people in danger on the way to the pillar? He would get distracted, but in delaying, he puts them in MORE danger. He has to be able to ignore those in smaller danger, and focus on his inner task, to make sure he focuses on the greater goal of sacrificing himself to keep them ALL safe.

I'm sure the dragon and tiger would have something similar.

So the trials help train Harbinger into some personality, but he still has to GET there. More over, he needs to have SOMEONE for the Black Tortoise.

The Yama Kings also know about the Harbinger. They know when he should be released and what he is supposed to do. They likely know what he is supposed to be like, and likely they are also how MK is supposed to even GET to the Jade Emperor.

The Harbinger needed a guide.

And I think that is the Nine Headed Demon.

Because here is the thing. NHD says he's not a monster. And he's tired of being the hero. And he isn't lying.

Here is the cycle.

The world starts. The Celestial body establishes itself. Demons run amok. The Journey happens. Society builds. Nuwa at some point puts the Harbinger in the stone. Eons pass. The Jade Emperor hits the end of his life.

The Harbinger is released.

And NHD is there, as a representative of the Yama Kings who know enough to know this will happen and what is expected. NHD helps the Harbinger to the trials. He helps him to the pillar. He watches the Harbinger sacrifice himself.

The cycle begins again.

He is there again.

The Harbinger dies again.

Over and over, until at some point, perhaps after the first time, perhaps later on, NHD is exposed to chaos. Likely when the cycle is ending and resetting, there is a window that chaos seeps in and NHD is able to see all that is beyond the world.

This is likely why he thinks he's fine regardless of MK's choice. Either he left during the brief window of a reset, he everything fell apart, so he was freed. He didn't account for continuing on beyond the reset.

NHD sees beyond and he sees beauty. NHD sees beyond and now he can REMEMBER. Why is hard to say. Likely he made a deal with whoever "he" is, but regardless, NHD loves chaos and he retains his memories.

But NHD was chosen to help the Harbinger for a reason. He is not cruel. He is not heartless. He loves the masses. He wanted to save and protect them, even at a cost, so he was chosen to help the Harbinger.

It is why even after he saw chaos, he chose to return. He had seen something so GOOD in his eyes, and he wanted to see if he could change the mind of those in the world. To convince Heaven to LET the chaos in. To end the resets and allow chaos and life to CHANGE beyond.

But no one listens.

They reject him.

Call him a monster.

The cycles continue.

He tries. He tries persuasion. He tries trickery. He likely tries force, but the Harbinger is too strong to stop and he will fulfill his destiny. He asks for help.

He even asks the one person who might stop the Harbinger.

Sun Wukong.

NHD said they were old enemies and old friends. NHD sought a solution, so he would ask who he could for help. Sometimes he could convince Wukong to help him. Others, he couldn't. And sometimes, he managed to get Wukong enraged enough to become an enemy. But unfortunately even with Wukong's power, he's never quite strong enough to keep the Harbinger from the pillar.

Likely because the Harbinger wants nothing more than to get to the pillar, and ultimately, the Harbinger is just some kid getting used, and Wukong can't bring himself to kill him. Allowing the Harbinger a moment to get through regardless of how the fight is actually going.

Which could be going far in Wukong's reaction to MK.

NHD said that MK is a remnant of chaos. Which means either the clay he was made from...or from Wukong's stone. And since the Celestial Primates are ODDITIES, its likely Wukong's stone that has that bit of chaos in it that Nuwa is using in her sacrificial building block. No one is gonna be able to make Wukong do anything he doesn't want, and likely none of the other primates, and Nuwa doesn't want to ask anyone to end their life either. Start anew is better.

But likely this bit of chaos may be why Wukong feels a draw to MK. Some part of him remembers the Harbinger. Remembers his strength. Remembers he's a kid being used, who hadn't been allowed to live, who did so much for the sake of others. A kid who idolizes him. A kid who can use his staff.

I think it says something with how much Wukong focuses on MK becoming self confident and choosing things for himself and why he steps in with the Spider Queen because its a fight MK desperately doesn't want even though he SHOULD be capable of handling it, instead of thinking the fights are too much for MK like the Lady Bone Demon. Wukong wants MK to decide things for himself, he wants MK to LIKE himself. Wukong wants MK to choose to. There is a bleeding of the timeline because of Wukong's connection to chaos by being a Celestial Primate.

The Harbinger is a blank slate...but he is a person. NHD, at first, just wants to help the world. He wants to be the hero. He wants to move beyond the cycle. But in trying to find that path, he introduces new elements to the Harbinger.

The Harbinger starts to show signs of development. Of change. The Harbinger starts to laugh. The Harbinger starts getting cheeky. The Harbinger starts crying when fights break out at the end. There is LIFE in the Harbinger.

Yet another beautiful thing this cycling world rejects for the sake of continuing to spin.

NHD tries to find a third solution. He tries over and over again. He knows the Harbinger will continue to the pillar, to save the world, over and over again, and he doesn't have the power to stop him. The Harbinger will always choose to sacrifice himself. He cannot end the cycle by preventing the sacrifice. He looks for a way to move past the eon. Maybe if he had more TIME, he could convince people to give chaos a chance. Perhaps he could allow the pillar to crumble more slowly, allow the sun to peak in over time. If he could just get the box to OPEN, then that would be enough.

Except nothing works. He can't fight anyone strong enough to replace the guardians. He can't find another means to fix the pillar. He tries over and over again.

There are several consequences to this and I'll get into one of those in another post. (Red Son has some INTERESTING things going on.)

NHD cannot find a means to move beyond the cycle. He is getting disillusioned. He wants to save everyone. He wants to bring them to the sun. He just can't.

He knows...he knows he doesn't HAVE to keep trying.

He sees it every reset. He has a window. He can LEAVE the cycle himself. Let everyone stay in their cave forever.

Except.

He sees the Harbinger throw himself into the pillar. The one he's sees sacrificing himself countless times for a world he never gets to truly experience. He only gets slivers of it. Moments of joy. Moments of triumphant. Moments of pain. Moments of truly being alive, when he deserved so much more.

NHD is tired. His sanity is fraying. He could simply go...

But he decides one more time.

He would live the cycle one more time.

Because the Harbinger deserved to fully experience the world. The Harbinger deserved to DECIDE whether or not to keep the cycle going, or let the world fall apart.

He manipulates the world in a different way. He's lived this cycle countless times. He knows much of what happens. He chooses a time.

He knows DBK gets released. He knows in short order, the Lady Bone Demon also gets freed, whether this is by the Demon Bull Family, the Mayor, or perhaps even Macaque (I haven't gotten a solid theory on what Macaque's deal is YET, but I have a suspicion his revival may not be a consistent thing.) Either way, DBK getting freed gets Wukong off his mountain because DBK is running around with HIS staff and while Wukong isn't interested in being a hero, that is HIS staff, thank you very much.

And the Lady Bone Demon is simply too big of a threat to ignore.

Its the first time where Wukong HAS to be active.

Its also the first time, in a while, where Wukong leaves his mountain. At times, visiting this city because its the first time in a while where the incarnations of the pilgrims are in close proximity and Wukong can't help himself. He just has to check things are okay.

Its the perfect set up.

The danger of releasing the Harbinger early is people noticing him. He will feel compelled to help people. NHD is pretty sure there is no way to be rid of that. So he needs something to justify this powerhouse running around.

This is the perfect time. Pigsy is a family man. If he leaves the Harbinger nearby, he will at least take care of the kid, and hopefully take him in. NHD can't be sure, but perhaps he has an idea depending on if Mei always finds Pigsy and Tang independent of MK's existence.

It works though. The Harbinger becomes MK and he's in place to be noticed by Wukong, who NHD already KNOWS experiences some bleed. Has seen Wukong react to the Harbinger with familiarity. Knows Wukong will be intrigued by MK enough to stay close.

Then DBK's freeing comes and Wukong is acting on suspicions, and maybe NHD is manipulating other things, but MK ends up with the staff, and Wukong is declaring MK his successor and NHD is thrilled.

MK now has the perfect smokescreen. The Celestial court has no say of what goes on with Celestial Primates without direct force. They don't know how they WORK. If Wukong says MK is his successor, then clearly he's done some weird primate magic on the boy and that's why he's powerful. The fact DBK and the Lady Bone Demon appeared, it screams of potential destiny to Wukong to. Throw in a few more of Wukong's enemies, keep him thrown long enough to not risk him thinking too much. Not like its hard, Wukong doesn't often think too much.

Even if this set up did present a few unexpected challenges NHD didn't account for. Macaque was largely an unknown because without MK's influence, IF Macaque is ALWAYS revived, Wukong and him likely never make up. They have too much bad history and too much stubbornness to actually work through their issues without MK calling Macaque out on his bullshit and enabling them to have to be around each other without turning into a huge fight. NHD got lucky that it took as long as it did because while Wukong doesn't overthink, Macaque certainly does and his plan may have been in more danger if Macaque had longer to explore those questions from episode one.

But no one knows MK is the Harbinger.

MK is allowed to experience life and what is means to save and have people to care for and he gets to make decisions on the scale of restoring the pillar and its perfect!

MK not only can make a choice, but will have the experience to do so.

Its all NHD ever wanted for him.

He's likely been doing something to the Jade Emperor to hasten his decline, or perhaps an eon really counts for the end of the man's life. Either way, he just has to free someone who is strong enough to take on the Jade Emperor in that state, but isn't strong enough to keep the stone functional.

The cycle can finally end.

MK can make a choice.

He can be free.

NHD never lied to anyone. He wanted to save everyone. He wasn't a monster. He wanted MK to have the freedom to chose, whatever it was.

He was only ever against MK the brief moment when he realized the world would continue and he wouldn't have his gap to escape. He didn't know WHAT would happen after that moment. Chaos had a chance to come in. There was a chance chaos wouldn't be able to, or at least wouldn't be able to for a very long time and he was so TIRED, he just wanted out, and for a moment, he was afraid to lose the thing he wanted for HIMSELF.

But as he stands on those stairs, as he sees the chaos, he is relieved.

He is HAPPY.

His words to MK are genuine. They are full of care and perhaps love. The child he had sent to die was finally alive. He was brilliant and clever. He found a third option that he hadn't been able to do for eons past.

He knows chaos is coming and that there will be a battle. The chaos MK feared may still be allowed through. So he warns him there is danger, that he will have to deal with the consequences of what happens Next.

He wishes him luck and thanks him. Sends him to a home he is glad his Harbinger is allowed to experience. For better or worse.

#Lego Monkie Kid spoilers #season 5 spoilers #Nine-Headed Demon #MK #Harbinger of Chaos #Sun Wukong #Lego Monkie Kid #LMK #LMK spoilers

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ryin-silverfish · 3 months

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I know, I know. LMK is kinda its own fantasy setting at this point, not everything has to be mythos-accurate, yadda yadda yadda.

However, I won't be me if I don't take the chance to ramble and nitpick anyways.

Basically: What do I mean when I say "Chaos doesn't work that way in traditional Chinese cosmology", in regards to LMK S5?

When people think of Chaos in the pop culture sense, it tends to be this destructive, corrosive force of entrophy, or a maelstrom of changes and aimless activities.

Even when the Chaos/Order divide doesn't get simplified into Evil/Good, Chaos is still painted as the antithesis of Order, and the two forces are often engaged in an antagonistic, dualistic conflict.

The way the primodial chaos is described in LMK very much fits that mold. It is something Nvwa has to create the Pillar of Heaven to protect humanity from, its magic is dark and ominous-looking, and the villain of the season is obsessed with it.

Yet Chaos——Hundun, when it isn't this cute little guy in the Book of Mountains and Seas:

or the victim of two gods' failed cosmetics surgery in Zhuangzi, is simply the undifferentiated, pre-creation state of the world, before it separates into Yin and Yang and the Five Phases.

In fact, Chaos in early Daoism and later, internal alchemy is something one desires to return to, because with the division of Chaos into Yin and Yang and the subsequent formation of the world also comes life and death, suffering and disorder.

For early Daoists, they yearned to return to that primitive, undivided state, which was viewed as a golden age, on an individual and societal level. For practitioners of internal alchemy, it was a lot more personal: by returning oneself to that primodial, Pre-Heaven stage through the blending of one's Spiritual Mind and Vital Force, one can attain immortality.

In fact, the word for the sort of disorder and mayhem people imagine when they heard "Chaos" is not Hundun, but Luan in early Chinese sources.

Both early Daoists and Confucians used the word Luan in their writings, but had significantly different take on what caused it.

To early Daoists, Luan was the result of people imposing their arbitary moral standards and civilization onto the natural, undifferentiated state of the world, a.k.a. what the Confucians and their idealized sage kings had done.

By introducing order, they caused division in the undivided, and from such divisions comes disorder. After all, if you had to educate people on right and wrong and exhort them to do good, then the world you were living in was already an immoral one.

(That's what the fable of the failed cosmetics surgery in Zhuangzi means...probably. Where two sea gods try to artificially create the seven orifices for the faceless Central Lord Chaos to repay his favor, and end up killing him in the process.)

The early Confucians also shared the same yearning to return to the golden age of the ancients, but their idea of the golden age wasn't the sea of undifferentiated, primodial unity.

Instead, it's the reign of the virtuous sage kings. Luan was the result of a breakdown of the order they established, as people lost respect for propriety and hierarchy of relations and began to behave immorally.

Their most explicit mention of Hundun was in Zuo Zhuan, where it was one of the Four Perils, all of which were immoral offsprings of ancient kings who were exiled by Sage King Shun. It very much fits into the narrative of "triumph of the righteous ruler over rebellious vassals", civilization over disorder.

However, the Confucian Hundun was no actual, primodial force of chaos, merely a historicized personification of disorderly, wrongful *human* conducts. In return, order isn't the cosmological, capital "O" Order either, but a moral and societal one.

Anyways, that's why the Order/Chaos conflict doesn't map neatly onto ancient Chinese cosmology: to have an Order/Chaos conflict implies there is a division, when Hundun is actually the lack of any sort of division.

Neither is Hundun a cosmological force of destructive changes and entrophy. If anything, it's more like the state of nature, from which everything spawns and will ultimately return to.

A cosmic egg, a sea of warm primodial soup, instead of a maelstrom of destruction or a corrupting poison.

(TL;DR: reject Moorcock, embrace Zhuangzi. /lh)

#chinese mythology #chinese religions #chinese philosophy #hundun #lego monkie kid #lego monkie kid season 5 #lmk season 5 #lmk s5 spoilers #lmk s5 #monkie kid spoilers #harbinger of chaos

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