i will never understand how or why the httyd movies did the books such an injustice.
the movies aren't even an adaptation - they stole the name of the series, the name of some of the characters and places, and the general idea that there are dragons. honestly, i would be fine with the movies and maybe even like them if they didn't capitalize off of cressida cowell's incredible books that never get any credit.
the books are an amazing story about the cycle of violence and how vengeance and revenge is dangerous. hiccup says that the past is a ghost story, one we need to learn from to better ourselves. the books are about how everyone deserves freedom, how every creature, every being on the earth deserves to be free. we see that in the slavemark, with the dragons.
and like... hiccup is so different. they did him a severe injustice. he's scrawny and intelligent and learned to talk to dragons simply by observing them! he chooses kindness first above all else; instead of yelling at toothless to train him, he is kind. and in the end, that kindness is why toothless chose to save him. bc even toothless himself says that dragons are inherently selfish creatures who care only for their survival. hiccup is brave - his beliefs differ drastically from both the vikings and the world.
hiccup is a child who chose to do the right thing even at the expense of himself. he agreed to free the slaves on nobert's ship, and in return, they gave him the slavemark which is easy to give but cannot be removed. he was like twelve. and having the slavemark means he cannot be with his tribe or his family, it means he isn't considered a human being anymore. and he keeps it a secret for awhile until it's revealed and when it is everyone turns their backs on hiccup. his family, his tribe, his mentor, people he TRUSTED. everyone except fishlegs, and, once she got over the shock, camicazi. he was thirteen. and even when he lost his memories and was really injured, he persisted. he was told to go to tomorrow and to save the dragons and he did bc in his heart he knew it was right even though he didn't know who he was or how he got there.
and fishlegs,,, oh my god FISHLEGS!!! the did him SO DIRTY!!! fishlegs is hiccup's best friend, one of the main motivators for hiccup. he steals norbert's potato for the sake of fishlegs, he gives fishlegs his dragon and goes to retrieve another, he takes the blame for fishlegs. and fishlegs does the same for him. he takes the slavemark with pride. he refuses to turn. he gives hiccup his lobster claw necklace which is his most prized possession. he is brave for hiccup, he believes hiccup is alive. he fights for hiccup harder than anyone else ever has. he does not turn. his is loyal, has allergies, has asthma, has a squint and a limp, has glasses bc he's blind without them... and he's still a hero despite being a runt, despite everyone even the adults telling him he's hopeless, telling hiccup to leave him behind.
and they cut camicazi! i'm sorry, but astr*d is nothing compared to camicazi. camicazi is a tiny, feral child who can easily best hiccup, fishlegs, and pretty much anyone in a sword fight. she can bring a grown man to tears with her rudery and smack talk. she is recklessly brave and craves adventure and follows hiccup blindly bc she trusts him that much. she isn't in love with hiccup - in fact she doesn't care about romance and love. she gives up everything to help hiccup bc she has a strong sense of justice. she is the motivator, the cheerleader, she finds a positive in everything. she never gives up. literally never gives up. and that's one of the most inspiring things about her: she always has hope.
and toothless! god!!! toothless is *thought to be* a common or garden dragon. he is horrifically tiny, he is literally toothless, and is the biggest brat in the world. he will cause problems on purpose. he has a stutter, he's the most selfless selfish dragon around. he and hiccup can talk to each other. he masks his fear with singing and being annoying. his growth is remarkable. he starts off refusing to obey hiccup, doing the opposite of what he says, making life harder for literally everyone around him, and he's still somewhat like that. but he's also braver, more caring, more willing to make sacrifices for the sake of others. he's clever, which he needs to be to make up for his size and aggression. he protects hiccup with everything he has, therefore, he protects what hiccup cares about just as hard. he was the only dragon that didn't abandon the vikings in the first book bc he cared about hiccup.
and snotlout,,, god,,, i will never forgive the movies for butchering snotlout. hiccup's cousin, the bully character, the one who is horrifically jealous that hiccup's dad was born before his. the one who desperately wants to prove himself, to be worthy, to make people proud. and you hate him, you despise him. he betrays everyone many times bc of the nothing promised to him by alvin and his mom. he loses himself, turns his back on himself, all bc he wants to prove himself. all bc he wants to be better than hiccup. and hiccup still forgives him and gives him chances, sometimes out of pity, but also bc snotlout is his cousin. he can't just turn his back on him no matter how miserable snotlout made his life. and in the end, snotlout sacrifices himself for hiccup. he gives up his life for hiccup in one last attempt to set things right. his death and the events preceding it are one of my absolute favorite moments in the book. gives me chills. makes me cry.
that's the thing with the books - they're so realistic. there is no inherently happy ending where everything works out. the first book begins with "there were dragons when i was a boy", implying that they're gone now. the books show there are consequences to our actions. they enslaved the dragons, they fought against them during the dragon rebellion all bc alvin and his mom said to, and now they're gone bc a simple apology doesn't fix hundreds of years of enslavement. and the only way for the world to move forward was for the dragons to leave and heal on their own. and now they have to learn to live without them. and yeah i've heard the third movie ends like that but. it doesn't have the build up. it doesn't have "there were dragons when i was a boy". it doesn't have eleven books of development to back it up, to make it feel meaningful.
i know that the movies are really special to a lot of people. i know that, on their own, they're genuinely good movies. i can acknowledge that the soundtrack is amazing and the animation is beautiful. i just can't see past the way they butchered the world that i love, the world that i grew up with. i can't see past the way people yelled at me for saying i liked the books better, the way that people gave me weird looks when i showed them a picture of the original toothless, when i tell them that nightfuries aren't even a type of dragon. cressida cowell created hundreds of different dragons, and the movies couldn't even pick from that. i can't forgive the way that barely anyone knows there are books bc the movie barely gives credit to them. i cannot forgive the way they capitalized off the books and then shoved them aside. i know cressida thinks they're good movies and i know a lot of httyd book fans also like them. but i just... i cannot get over how much they changed and how they missed so much and ignored the books. also they got rid of camicazi so hiccup could have a love interest and that is unforgivable to me.
if you disagree, that is a-okay. we're all entitled to our own opinions. i just ask that you, perhaps, try the books out. give them a chance. bc they're amazing works of art and also just like. don't yell at people who don't like the movies? whether it's bc they prefer the books or just aren't into that kind of movie. and just remember that dreamworks didn't come up with the story; cressida cowell did.
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I know you're the Kyle expert, but I knew a guy who thought Stan would be an incel. Thoughts?
Hmmm. Idk, I've seen that float around and I don't really get it?? Like, I can sorta get it more than when people seriously say it about Kyle. Stan definitely seems to fall into more... Viewing girls sort of in that perhaps lightly internally sexist way than Kyle seems to, of having some sort of unintentional separation between boys and girls that makes him kind of view girls as very different types of people friendwise, if that makes sense. Like, say he was dating a guy- I don't think much would change in terms of the guy being an extremely close friend who's been elevated up an extra level to romantic. But Wendy isn't really like that. She's not Stan's friend outside of their relationship.
And okay, that's not to say Kyle is a bastion of anti sexism himself, ESPECIALLY noting earlier seasons, but Kyle doesn't really seem to act the same way Stan does when interacting with girls?? His early season sexism felt more innocent and childish, something he's definitely grown out of now. It was less built on this deep internalized toxic masculinity and more like the "eww cooties" ideas that happen a lot with young kids. Obviously division based on traits like sex is not good under any circumstance, but it doesn't seem to have carried on much in his modern view of girls. Nowadays Kyle just seems to view girls far more equally even when divided from them, and cares more about listening or hearing out where they're coming from and understanding their frustration with sexism, for example. While he doesn't really have many close female friends (and really none of the boys actually do besides Stan), his behavior doesn't really shift at all to trying to be gentlemen-y or something around women, denoting a very equal level view of them.
But, in Stan's defense, we see him interacting with the girls way more than Kyle, and I think him having dated Wendy, interacting with her friends, etc etc over the series gives us way more to work with in that area than we get to with the more or less far in between hints we're given with Kyle. One thing that I think may impact this for me is also kind of that the few times we HAVE seen Kyle's attraction to girls play out, putting aside Leslie bc oh boy was Kyle blindly simping there, he doesn't seem to be as quick to focus on like... I guess vaguely sexual aspects like the other boys, which leads to him just seeming to objectify women less (Not to say that being sexually attracted to someone is inherently objectifying, but there is more of an overlap with people who are drawn by looks and engagement in objectifying behavior).
And then there's how Kyle has reacted to being rejected, and I know the big one is Super Hard PCness that everyone likes to point out as Kyle being a "nice guy", but in actuality, he was extremely graceful in how their relationship ended, moreso than he needed to be with the horrible things Heidi said to him, and only flipped out after being bullied and teased and harassed by virtually the whole school, Cartman and Heidi especially. It was definitely not anger purely because he didn't get a girl he liked, it was anger that someone he'd trusted and tried to help so swiftly turned on him and humiliated him for no reason at all, that once again he was being put down by Cartman, and that everyone else treated him poorly as well, Stan included. There's also Rebecca who Kyle just... Kinda let go. Like, we don't really see much of his reaction but there's nothing to tell us Kyle was angry their relationship was broken off, so I'm counting it at least a little. There's Nichole too, who once again we don't really straight up see Kyle's reaction to her breaking up with him. But we do see how he treats her, how much he tries to find stuff they have in common to talk about, how his only anger of their relationship not working is Cartman's blatant racism and lies about him purposely made to sabotage any chances he does get with this girl that he likes. It's not anger towards whatever choice Nichole makes here, it's anger about Cartman's needless and morally egregious interference. I know this is a low bar to pass in whether a character is decent to women, but Kyle just repeatedly not behaving badly over his breakups is a big tell to me. So often we see male characters act like assholes just because a girl doesn't like them or a girl broke up with them or something. Even with Stan, in fact, we've seen this play out. I mean. He's pretty okay too but we did see him tell Wendy she was a bitch for dating someone else. This is from early seasons, that I wouldn't solely use as evidence Stan is a crazy sexist even now, but it plays a part in this conversation on whether or not you can more accurately call Stan Marsh the incel-ish one of the two.
Okay, but like. Why am I even talking so much about Kyle here when you're asking about Stan? Well, I honestly think that the duality of them as characters reinforces the ideas of what the other is like to the audience, and this leads into a LOT of the extremes the fandom will push them into (the fem/masc debate, the nerd/jock debate, etc etc) and likewise it does so here. When we see Kyle being kinda more normal around girls, even though it's rare we see him like that at all, it makes Stan seem all the more awkward when in reality, he kind of isn't that bad at all?? He's pretty normal with girls for a boy his age, though he could be a bit less of a dick sometimes. I do think he sometimes has this huge focus on looks, and that can be... Not great, but it's not to a horrible evil incel-ish degree by any means, and I'd argue for his age he's a pretty good guy to, say, Wendy- Not that he can't improve a LOT but Idk, his shittiness comes off more as "dumb little boy is sometimes a jerk to his friends" to me than "secretly hates and disrespects women".
But y'know, at the end of the day, Kyle and Stan are more alike than people think about many of these things, this being one of them. Whether or not Kyle or Stan are better with how they act to women is hard to say. I can see why people would be able to twist Kyle into being incel-ish even if I don't really personally think it's based accurately on the information we've been given. I can see even moreso how someone might be able to with Stan, and while I do think there's at least a bit more of a leg to stand on him having some issues with internalized sexism, I don't think it's accurate with the information we've been given either. Neither of them are really incel-ish to me.
Honestly, if they were dealing with the issue of not being able to find a partner, they'd probably mostly internalize it into self blame and feel bad about themselves but not really broadly blame other people. Stan might slump into a depression or put his focus elsewhere, Kyle, if wanting a partner badly enough (I don't think it's ever been his first priority and I doubt it ever will be) would make efforts to fix the problem by figuring out what's putting people off about himself and try to figure out how he can fix it rather than lashing out. (Also I already lightly touched on why I don't think Kyle would redo his actions in The List right here over not being able to get a girlfriend lol)
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I am humbly requesting your thoughts on Linebeck
Oh I have a LOT of thoughts on Linebeck but I'll try to just get some major points down bc it would take me ages to spill all of my thoughts on him.
(plus i do have two general headcanon posts [ 1 2 ] a post abt headcanons about him being autistic [ x ] and a weird post about his coat [ x ] as well as pretty much anything in my linebeck tag with my excessive tagging of some reblogs and my original posts + whatever writing or fanfiction i have done/will do with him included so. bonus reading for headcanon-y stuff or a look at how i portray him)
added a read more bc this is long bc of course it is :) i hope it's in the right spot :)))
Linebeck is... a good fucking character. He's probably my favorite character period, and has been pretty much soon after I got Phantom Hourglass. He feels unique compared to other Zelda characters as a companion character who offers less direct support and is more just of a constant character who changes throughout the course of the story and is... well, a companion, not really a helper. He falls more in line with the types of loz characters who are more rude or antagonistic towards Link, but develops out of that, and also technically counts not only as a boss but a final boss, putting him as the only non-villain character to be a final boss, so uh good for him.
Just within the context of the games he's got a great design and a great theme (which is only heard about two times before the final boss but has a recognizable enough motif for it to be noticed in the final boss theme) and an interesting role in his game and just has one of the best character arcs and one of the most interesting places within the story as a whole. Linebeck's arc is very... natural in how you see his attitude change within both story beats and in his overworld dialogue, but at the same time seems like it stutters when he deals with Ciela's criticism and upholding his own reputation, I think his character arc is very fascinating if you consider the entire context of his character and what he interacts with, since a majority of the characters he directly interacts with seem to deny the idea that he's any more than a useless coward.
The fact that pretty much the rest of the major cast in Phantom Hourglass has basically no faith or respect for Linebeck is so fucking fascinating to me. This guy has to be doing so fucking bad over the course of the game. In relation to Ciela specifically, an idea I've been thinking of and trying to work into some of my Phantom Hourglass oneshots is that having to be around and interact with her so frequently wears Linebeck down pretty badly as the game goes on.
This guy is undeniably mentally ill and that's also something I have a specific fic planned out for but that's probably not going to see the light of day for a while. It's basically five chapters of Oshus being Linebeck's therapist or something each time Link goes to the Temple of the Ocean King.
I particularly enjoy how the game (at least twice) plays with your expecting him to be at the ship all of the time by having him be in a different spot on an island. His dialogue for islands and his overseas dialogue are fun, it gives off a sense that he much prefers exploring and is a bit less guarded overseas. His dialogue during the ghost ship fight is ESPECIALLY fantastic, the specific line of 'I'm fighting right there with you this time, kid!' not only offers some very interesting insight to his attitude towards link and his own role, but kind of also stings when considering the events of the final boss and is also a quote I took a screenshot of while reading the text dump for this game.
Phantom Hourglass is by no means an exceptional game and while the story is fine it's nothing fantastic and even most of the characters are... ok, but Linebeck is without a doubt the best part of this game and I really feel like he's the main reason why people still give this game a chance and despite everything he's easily one of the best characters in the entire series even if his game isn't one of the better ones. He honest to god steals every scene he's in, even if he barely has any dialogue- he's animated with such distinct personality and I love it. He doesn't speak at all until the end of the spirit of courage scene and yet is so fucking distracting with his fruity fucking posing and movements in reaction to what's going on.
I'm also personally a fan of the near-complete lack of backstory we get for him. The most we get is some vague implications but everyone can read the given information in different ways so it's really not much. Phantom Hourglass's general lack of lore is great for me since I can just fill in the blanks however I want. I kinda honestly don't want Nintendo to revisit this game because I don't really want them to add anything new. Just port it or something don't change it.
That's about it for surface-level specific-to-the-games Linebeck talk... on to everything else.
Linebeck is literally the reason why I found out I was autistic. I wrote this loser and realized I was accidentally making him kinda autistic and THEN realized I was also projecting and then decided to look into that. He's fun to write and he always ends up a little out of character and at this point I barely give a damn because this bastard is masking or keeping up a facade or whatever the fuck in most of his scenes anyways. Linebeck's arc feels to me more about him being most honest and open to and about his own emotions and actual personality so honestly writing him a bit out of character doesn't bother me too much.
He's my favorite little guy, and when I plan out Zelda aus he always gets a major role to the point where a lot of the twists to my aus all end up being similar. For a few of them I've had to forcibly alter his role so that I can't include him constantly. He's very interesting for different kinds of aus because he's an interesting character for different concepts and situations. His relationships with characters in Phantom Hourglass lend well to au stuff; specifically with Link, in one au they're adoptive brothers, in one they're something akin to rivals, in one their mutual fixation on each other propels the plot. I've even expanded on interactions and possible dynamics with Bellum in aus (Bellum is honestly fun since he's kind of a blank slate in canon but there's just enough there to build off of but keep it relatively the same original character).
I have a few ocs that used to be au versions of Linebeck that ended up becoming their own thing because the aus in question worked better as original stories.
With Phantom Hourglass-centric ideas, it's a lot of fun to poke around and explore stuff with Linebeck's past, his mental state, the kinds of things he enjoys or hates, pretty much anything the game doesn't elaborate on. With all of that blank space and the fact that I've known about him for a few years now, I've gotten down a whole backstory and deeper details on Linebeck, most of which I'm probably going to end up expressing through writing.
Just a few of the baseline ones are just along the lines of him being gay, autistic, touch-averse, intersex, a cat person, someone who highly values his freedom, half Gerudo, interested in music- some of it can be supported with canon (he really comes off to me like a closeted gay man, and he does have some generally autistic vibes) and some of it is really just for the hell of it (in particular the idea that he’s of Gerudo descent has no backing but is so interesting for story stuff and is generally fun) (I also enjoy ignoring parts of canon. I have not played Spirit Tracks and I do not want to play it so if I don't look at it I can ignore it).
I have a lot of fun fleshing him out in different aus or in scenarios before or after Phantom Hourglass, since there's just enough there to allow for further reasonable exploration, and his being just some normal guy actually helps with that since it forces you to keep things relatively normal and comparable to kinds of things you can experience in your day-to-day. I've more or less figured out a (mostly) full backstory for him, I've decided on a full physical description of how he looks so that I have a baseline if I want to change stuff in an au or just so that I know how I figure he looks as well as have an idea of how some physical traits can lend themselves to other aspects of how I write and portray him (for example, I figure he has long fingers, which goes right with the idea that he enjoys music and is pretty good on a piano, and also that he's good with tasks that might require a bit more finger dexterity as well as generally helping a bit with pick-pocketing or thievery)
I figure that, along with the general idea I have of him valuing his freedom, he's not particularly interested in following rules or laws and hates seeing too many of them put in place, and especially values his own identity even if he doesn't express it as much as he'd like. He likes being able to go wherever he'd like and he likes being able to do what he wants and express himself how he wants and that stuff gets bogged down when he plays into that image of someone he's not that he hides behind and doubles down on in a good bit of Phantom Hourglass.
Linebeck is fun in general he's a good character he's fun for aus he's got enough groundwork to spend ages pouring into possible avenues for his personality and background and whatever potential he could have in different aus or roles. He's surprisingly fun and interesting to use as an antagonist since you can't fall back on easy villain-writing ideas and have to get a bit more creative with it.
I think I struggle to write him in-character but it's backed up a bit by my specific interpretation of him suggesting that a lot of what you see from him is forced or fake. I still think he's a greedy piece of shit, though. He sucks and it's on purpose. I lean into him being rude and cold and a bit quieter overall.
He just... for some fucking reason when I decided to play this game Linebeck struck a chord with me whether or not I realized it at the time so he's just very interesting and entertaining and important to me and it really doesn't help that either Phantom Hourglass as a whole or just Linebeck is my special interest.
Linebeck stands out in comparison to other Zelda characters and has a very unique and fascinating role and arc and is just so fucking good.
He feels like he could be used as an example of how good character writing can save a piece of art (not that ph sucks but like. god damn he elevates it) just because his inclusion makes the story more interesting as you have this selfish asshole tagging along next to your little goody-two-shoes protagonist and fairy friend, and his arc, though not entirely the focus of the story, is another reason to keep progressing. His dialogue is funny and has some really good in-character tips every so often, he adds character to traversal and adds stakes as a character to care about and protect and is just fucking fantastic.
He's a character that can work as comedic relief but at the same time can be taken very seriously and I really enjoy that while he seems to be in the role of comedic relief a lot it never seems much like it's diegetically intentional and it still allows room for him to be taken completely seriously. Him knocking over stone Tetra is funny but there's so much character in that entire string of animations that while it's a fun background gag it also provides even more insight into Linebeck as a character.
Essentially he's my favorite character ever he was probably my gay awakening and I want to steal his gender and I think about him more than I think about my ocs.
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