#it's not an anti ship post in any way

[brsb4hls]

Right nobody will care, but it's important to me.

In order to get decent representation in media there needs to be a serious discourse.

This also refers to openly adressing and criticizing queerbaiting.

If you claim 'queerbaiting' every time two men get along with each other, you're effectivly killing the discourse.

It will have the 'cry wolf' effect and will not be taken seriously anymore.

There's obviously no point in sharing interviews that contradict the 'baiting', since nobody cares. I tried.

It's also useless to argue perception, you can't argue perception.

So lets try logic as a last resort:

From what I've seen Lokius hardly exists outside of tumblr. Some may ship it on twitter (daily lokius has like 4000 followers and there might he overlap with the tumblr croud), there's the occasional facebook comment, idk about TikTok.

On tumblr, how big is the fandom? The most popular posts I've seen have like 5000 notes.

So lets be generous and estimate 8000 people in total. (Edit: been informed it's 11000, still not a blip)

That's not even a blip in ratings.

It absolutely does not matter in any capacity.

Now why would the Loki show go through the trouble of creating subtle queer subtext for a handful of people who wont make them money?

Can't be positive reception, because the press focusses on the clever time travel stuff, easter eggs, cinematography, effects, what have you. There's enough positivity.

There is absolutely no reason.

And if you argue that queer shows are getting more popular: yes, thankfully they are, but if you look at the tv stats from just today, ofmd is ranked 67 in popularity, Loki is ranked 9.

Even if those stats weren't reliable, the bitter truth is that Loki does not need the Lokius shipping subset of queer fans (subset because there are enough queer Loki fans who watch anyways).

So tl;dr: By all means, celebrate your ship, that's what it's for. But get off the queerbaiting train please. That's so not what's happening here and it messes up discourse.

(Otoh I gotta admit if 8000 people complain about being baited next friday, it probs also wont matter. But it is so exhausting, you have no idea)

[spite-and-waffles]

FUCK YES STEPHANIE IS THE JASON THAT NEVER WAS PANDA YOU ARE THE HERO THIS FANDOM NEEDS BUT DOES NOT DESERVE PREACH THE GOSPEL OF STEPHANIE AMEN

[bloomfish]

so I like the concept of the cookie dough speech. I think, independently, it's a good conclusion for buffy to come to by the end of the series. However, the context... look, it's been pretty thoroughly established throughout the series that buffy and angel will never work. can never work. is it a great romance, does it make me feel for the characters, do i love the angst of it? yes absolutely. but why am I being told, despite being shown the opposite, that there's a chance in hell that buffy will end up with angel? why am I being told continually by the writing across both shows that a codependent teen romance between two people who like... barely know each other is what buffy should aspire to? for the rest of her life?

this insistence is such a detriment to the characters of both buffy and angel. each grew so much on their respective shows. i love both buffy and angel as characters. I love what their relationship means for their past and how it informs their characters moving forward. but god, just leave it there. framing buffy/angel as the truest love that will ever be, automatically eclipsing any other relationship either of them try to have, is honestly not great messaging. personally i will always be affected in some way by my first love, I think that's a normal, relatable experience. But there's no way that love is a viable part of my future, and it wouldn't be healthy for me to think so...

it also takes away from the meaning that people like spike and cordelia might have in their lives because whatever they do, however they grow to love each other, they'll always be 'consolation prize' to... what? buffy's high school relationship with an older guy? no thx

[mintacle]

So, you've seen the words "anti" and "proshipper" thrown around in people's bios and "batc*st dni" on people's posts. Maybe you want to know what all the fuss is about, maybe you have a particular opinion about all this fuss. In any case, this informative post is for you.

Using Samantha Aburime's paper "the cult structure of the american anti", I'm going to explain the issue.

First of all what is an anti even? It's a term people use to self-identify within fandoms. As the name anti implies, they mainly identify with being against things.

Which leads us to our problem of the anti mentality.

Most antis are minors or under 24. People who left the anti community have explained their experiences in the following manners:

Maybe you have felt the pressure to join in anti behavior as well. If any of the following feelings are familiar to you, then you are experiencing anti indoctrination:

If the shame and guilt instilled in anti members isn't bad enough, there are more consequences for the targets of the antis. In the batman fandom these are blogs that may or may not describe themselves as proship, meaning they ship characters that are (adoptive) members of the wayne family (Bruce Wayne, Dick Grayson, Jason Todd, Tim Drake and Damian Wayne) with one another.

Essentially: this is how anti action works:

Examples of dehumanization and harrasement which are very commonly practised among antis:

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And threats of violence:

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Beyond the aggresive nature of the anti mentality, the problem is that the people it targets are overwhelmingly vulnerable minorities.

And I have often seen antis justifying their harrasement by explaining that they are themselves queer or non-caucasian, which is an example of moral licencing and does not actually excuse targetting other minorities or people of the same minority as you.

So what do antis specifically do? The anti community of the batman fandom will often throw around accusations of incest ("batc*st") and pedophilia.

Let us examine those three concepts, disinformation, virtue signaling and legitimate abuse.

We can find disinformation in the prectise of denying reasonable arguments for tolerance of proshipping. An anti will not engage in any attempt to understand why people ship something they find morally apprehensible. They will label proshippers as degenarates, thereby misrepresenting who it is they are targeting. Furthermore they will misrespresent the amount of influence that proshippers yave on influencing people.

Virtue signaling describes the practise of labelling things as problematic without delivering reasonable arguments for doing so and instead using strong emotional language to explain their judgement:

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Virtue signaling also represents the practise of self-describing the anti as morally pure and the "enemy", the proshipper as morally degenerate.

Both disinformation and virtue signaling allow for legitimate abuse. Depersonifying and villifying the opponent gives the anti a feeling of being legitimized in their abuse.

For followers of my blog, I would like to raise awareness of this side of anti culture. Emotional and shame-inducing language can easily sway us. I plead my case for reasonable and distanced evaluation of what you see online. Condemning pedophilia and incest will seem perfectly natural on face value, which is why it is so hare to understand that often time what is labbelled as such is misrepresented, and really all the time the anti myth will equate preference of fiction to beliefs of real life morality (see first image)

To finish my informational post, I leave you with one last essential quote from Samantha Aburime's paper:

"The anti movement perpetuates archaic systems of judgement based on personal disgust and region-specific morality, punishing powerless people for their fannish interests and tainting their online communities. Their work does nothing to dismantle harmful systematic institutions; rather, it embraces them, even going so far as to actively harm and destroy members of their own community."

Read the full paper here. It's very interesting and a not too long read.

https://journal.transformativeworks.org/index.php/twc/article/view/2147/2829

[alfhildr-the-word-weaver]

I got thinking too much about Marwa from What We Do in the Shadows again and how she was canonically making observations of Jupiter and Saturn in the 1200s. Then I thought about how Elena took Damon to go watch a meteor shower, and I decided that Marwa and Elena should get away from all the vampire drama B.S. in their lives and go nerd out about astronomy together, and this moodboard sort of happened. I also thought about how Elena becomes a doctor and went ah, they are both women in STEM! So I ran with that as a theme too.

But yeah, Marwa needs a friend who will actually support her interests and engage with her intellectually (no shade to Nadja and the Guide, I'm glad they had a fun weekend watching Mamma Mia together which was literally the only time we got to actually see Marwa happy onscreen, but they have never demonstrated much interest in science that I can recall and I want Marwa to have an astronomy buddy), and I think Elena would be fascinated by her and her perspectives on astronomy from centuries ago, and they could learn about modern astronomical advances together. If I find the time and energy I might even write fic about it, but for now, here is a moodboard so that we can all bask in the vibes of my beautiful crossover vision together.

Image sources: x x x / x (the first frame of x gif + a screenshot from x) x / x + x x x

[sonknuxadow]

just got a blazed sonadow post on my dash that was actually such a jumpscare

[aho-dapa]

This fandom is honestly...

Like, there is something to be said about fandoms in general and how they've changed as a whole generally but

There's also something about how the acotar fandom is especially toxic like

The idea that a post is surprised a murder hasn't happened yet and I found myself agreeing??? Is honestly telling

Like, also. A massive part of this is shipping and maybe it's because I have my corner of this fandom, but even then shipping the "wrong" thing in general has become something I honestly have to take in consideration when thinking of my mental health and if I can personally be prepared for any backlash??

This fandom at large doesn't feel safe and that's majorly concerning tbh

Maybe instead of saying shippers as a group are doing harm, we should just disavow harmful actions in general and not be complicit in it idk???

[haven-of-dusk]

The thoughts nobody asked for on the much discussed 7x10 Tevan/Bucktommy/Bummy/whatever you wish to call them dinner date:

From a character perspective it's...fine. i really struggle to come up with an alternative word for it, because I struggle to have strong feelings at all about it. We've known since last season (at the latest, arguably sooner) that Buck has a kinky side. Now we know Tommy has one too. And they flirted about it. Neither of them were really acting out of character, and the scene was perfectly tolerable. But...that's sort of the problem.

From a writing standpoint, this scene is...kind of an abysmal failure. Or at least I presume it is, but it depends on what the writers wanted to accomplish with the scene.

If the goal was to solidify the Bucktommy relationship, bring more people on board, end the season strong, etc, then it failed. Miserably. Because in an episode full of story-essential moments, emotional beats, drama, and so forth, there's just this date scene doing...nothing. It doesn't push Buck or Tommy forward as characters, it does nothing meaningful to develop their relationship beyond the surface layer we've known it's had since their first episode together, and its only tie to the episode's main plot is a transition into a joke. They set Tommy up to finally develop his character, give some backstory, have him comiserate with Buck, build their rapport...and then we skip right to 'teehee, daddy issues.' It feels like the middle of the scene is missing.

Like...stay with me here, and don't jump away just because I'm bringing up Buddie, but the 3x9 kitchen scene is a prime example of what it seemed like the 7x10 date scene was going for. We start with a connection to the episode's plot, framed semi-light heartedly ("So she shoots him, and then takes him back?"), we transition into them having a serious, meaningful conversation, with Buck apologizing for his absence during the lawsuit arc and them discussing Eddie's boxing crisis, and then the scene ends on a lighthearted note with the infamous "wanna go for the title?"

So the issue with the 7x10 date is that the middle section, the emotions, the bulk of the conversation, just isn't there. It's like making a sandwich but ending up with just the pieces of bread. Yeah, you can still eat it, but it's not really the same thing, is it? It's lacking the SUBSTANCE.

And this ties into a larger problem with Tommy...he just never gets ANYTHING to do or say beyond surface level comments or observations. I hear the defense repeatedly that "it's a short season" "give them time to flesh him out more" "they didn't have space to include all the development, but they've got good seeds!", but this date scene is the very blatant counterpoint. This was a PRIME chance to do something with him, in an already story heavy episode, a season finale no less, and to tie his discussion of his trauma in with Buck's and have them bond over painful memories, give them a dynamic about HOW they approach those discussions, ANYTHING. But instead we skip past the development and end on a passable joke. This is a short, condensed season, yes. It's why I accepted them cutting most of the bachelor party because it was just fun and the episode needed to focus on development and story. But this date has no more story or character weight than the party did. They giftwrapped an oppurtunity for themselves, and then squandered it.

Which brings me to the question...do the writers even want me to root for Buck and Tommy's relationship? Because if so they are doing a TERRIBLE job of it. Tommy barely appears, and when he does they do nothing with him. They feel as though they are actively avoiding giving Bucktommy a dynamic or developing anything about why Tommy in particular is a good fit for Buck. Saying "he's good for you," doesn't cut it. Having them kiss twice, doesn't cut it. All of it leads me to wonder if they're just setting the couple up to break up cordially next season, Buck having learned more about himself, and Tommy...having a boyfriend for a few months I guess.

The daddy issues joke has caused a stir that overshadowed the real issue with the scene: Tommy still doesn't have a character, or a motive, or a dynamic with Buck, or anything. And it's starting to feel like he never will. And it's a bit frightening that I can't tell if it's intentional or not.

[musclesandhammering]

If shippers are making you this pissed off, you need to stop interacting with them instead of being so fucking negative.

And if seeing negativity makes you pissed off enough to anonymously (lmao) send me a message about it, you need to adjust your filters accordingly to avoid posts that are specifically tagged as anti from blogs that have anti right in the name 🤷‍♀️

[lenorahills]

do you even like any st ship that isn’t mileven????

No! 🤗❤️

[furby-organist]

// Alright, throwing this out there before I sleep: now that I've done with my exam and I may have access to my laptop soon, I'd like to get back into the swing of things and write with more people! Like this post (or reply) if you want me to make a mental note to check out your blog / reach out to you about RPing!

Also, for reference, since this seems to be a Hot Fandom Topic: I consider myself neither proship nor anti. My rules page is pretty up-to-date with who I will/won't interact with.

[bloodenjoyer]

i hate when annoying cunts like this follow me and it’s like. Your whole blog is you being the most insufferable person fathomable like at this point it’s not just about your opinions it’s the fact that you don’t know how to have a real personality

[anawkwardlady]

I really hate when you're trying to talk about the fact that sometimes and it seems like more and more, people are mixing the intent of a fictional character and the morality of the story itself/the author of it and how theres more and more judgments of character based of the morality of what we're consuming which leads to distress and ocd thinking sometimes.... and someone is like "Ohh literally no one does that why are you complaining about "puriteens"" or try to make it about a secret shipping discourse argument. THIS IS NOT ABOUT THAT. I DONT CARE ABOUT WHATEVER THE TEENS ARE DOING. SOMETIMES WE ARE REALLY TALKING ABOUT ADULT MEDIA, FOR ADULT PEOPLE, OUTSIDE OF FANFICS AND FANDOM DYNAMICS. Just because you're saying "hey its a bit fucked up how you can be harassed for not taking people by the hand and give them a black and white narrative over and over again" doesnt mean ANYTHING about fandom debate and shipping discourse. It's is OWN THING.

[acheronidae]

I am not going to name names, I am not going to put any one specific person on blast, nor should anyone else.

But PLEASE, TAG YOUR SHIP CONTENT PROPERLY!

What may be your OTP may make someone else very uncomfortable. You are fully within your right to post about that ship if you want to, I am not in any way trying to police the content other people choose to make on this site(within the boundaries of both the law and of Tumblr's community guidelines).

I only ask that you tag the ship so that the people who don't want to see said content can filter the tag and avoid it.

We are all here to have fun, so we should all be looking out for each other and properly tagging the content we make so that we don't have to resort to blocking each other.

Please and thank you.

[narmothewraith]

Introduction of my blog

My main rule is when interacting with me: just be nice and if you harass people for the content they like?? Just fuck off, this page is safe for the freaks. (I mean look at the warning) As long you're nice and you let me be me, I won't give a fuck who you are. So yeah that's all :)

~ I go by the name; Sam

~ I'm a masc person and while I prefer male pronouns I don't really give a fuck, so you can call me anything.

~ I'm 18 and post/reblog 18+ content now and then, so if you're uncomfortable with 18+ content or are a minor please do not interact with those posts... Thank you <3 Uhhh so basically I'm being horny on main...

⚠️ WARNING: I play DoL (Degrees of Lewdity) and I post/reblog stuff about it but it's a very fucked up porn game, so I will post/reblog dark content on here. I will try to tag accordingly but yeah. In general there will be some reblogs of dark content, so if you don't like that, well this was a warning ⚠️

[t4tstarvingdog]

Hi, I’m kind of new to participating in fandom and only just recently found out what pro-shipping was. But I just kind of wanted to get your thoughts on that and maybe it’d help me sort out my own thoughts on the matter. (Sorry this is a rather long ask)

So I am actively against csa, pedophilia, and incest and I have no interest in engaging in content with those subject matters.

I have had some pro-ship arguments crop up on my dash before that I kind of end up agreeing with. Stuff like “writing about those subjects doesn’t mean the writer condones or participates in those behaviors”, “you can use your critical thinking skills to discern between right and wrong for yourself”, “these characters are fictional so they aren’t actually getting hurt”, and “these are real things that happen to people so authors shouldn’t shy away from writing about it.”

I don’t have any interest in engaging with that kind of content even though I agree or somewhat agree with those above statements. I guess my opinion is more of like I can’t control what people are going to write about but if they want to write about that kind of stuff go ahead just please tag your shit so I can filter it out and not get grossed out/triggered.

However, from what I have read with that kind of content (either because something wasn’t tagged appropriately or from morbid curiosity) it seems like those statements are just excuses to sexualize those subject matters- which I don’t agree with. Like I can understand adding those elements to a story if you are calling out those kinds of behaviors, setting up trauma for a character, or making a villain, etc. However so many fanfics are just like porn without plot with that subject material which I don’t agree with at all and I can’t understand why anyone would make it.

I just wanted to get your insight on the matter. I’ve been afraid of asking other people about it because so many people are outright accusatory about these kinds of things, but the way that you handled the call out post by just presenting factual information so that viewers could know and decide how to handle it themselves really made me hopeful that you could handle this kind of ask and do so respectfully.

I don’t think I’m pro-ship cause that kind of stuff upsets me but I also agree with those statements that seem to be common argument posts for them but like I also have ZERO interest in reading or engaging with people who participate with literal porn of those subject matters. Idk does agreeing with those statements make me pro-ship or like is pro-ship just the people who overly sexualize that kind of stuff. Are my thoughts morally wrong? Or am I just kind of a victim of getting lured into pro-ship stuff because I agree with those kinds of statements?

I’m really sorry for sending you this ask and that it was so long. I’ve just been very confused about all of this and haven’t really had anywhere to comfortably turn to for answers. I can completely understand if you don’t want to answer this ask because it could potentially invite more discourse than what you’re already getting and I wouldn’t want that for you. The reason I did make it an ask instead of a message is because I was scared to not do it anonymously and other people who are potentially confused about all of this could potentially get some much needed guidance. If you’re up for talking about it but don’t want to post this ask, feel free to make a post asking for a message instead and I’ll try to work up the courage to message you. Of course I completely understand if you just don’t even want to touch this ask. Please just do what you think is best for you.

Thank you

The simplest answer I can give you is that I'm not 100% sure about any of this either. I'm not at all comfortable with pro-ship material, and I'm not comfortable interacting with them, or them interacting with me.

In situations like this, it’s hard. It’s treated like two binary sides, where one must be entirely right and the other must be entirely wrong, without any nuance or appreciation for complexity in the the circumstances.

I don’t think having content that touches on the topics, or even focuses on the topics is inherently wrong. But they *are* things that need to be treated with care, with proper warnings beforehand. It’s also important to remember that different people have different tastes, however that brings us to one of your points.

It’s not just a matter of dealing with trauma, or venting, or expressing yourself, or even the arguments you listed; It’s the fact that those are used as an excuse for the sexualization and romanticization of the topics, which is damaging. Of course, being able to discern for yourself whether or not something is healthy or dangerous is important, especially when the content matter doesn’t seem to condemn it, but there’s a major difference for being able to consume something critically and outright celebrate and support the content itself.

Personally, I find the rigid dichotomy between being “pro-ship” and being an “anti” really difficult to understand, because they both feel like extremes on the topics of censorship and ‘pure media’ and stuff like that. I don’t think it makes you pro-ship to understand and agree with certain arguments, because no one group will be entirely wrong or entirely right, it just depends on how you apply those things.

Ultimately, I am just one person and I don’t by any means know everything. It’s complicated, and scary to navigate, and it’s never as clear as saying this is a black and white matter and everything on this side of the line is right and everything on that side is wrong. I can’t tell you if your thoughts are moral, and to some extent I don’t think it matters. Plenty of people, and definitely myself included, have intrusive thoughts that involve horrible things. But those thoughts don’t make us awful people. In the end, questioning what you believe, and why you believe it, and the results of you believing certain things is helpful and *good* to do, and I encourage you to question all of it, even my advice here.

I view it like this: My beliefs affect my thoughts, which affects my actions. If my actions are harming people, I need to find out why and fix it. 

TL;DR: Agreeing with certain facts doesn’t mean you agree with how they’re applied. This is a complicated issue that deserves to be handled with care. And having moral thoughts are not nearly as important as whether or not you’re hurting people.

I appreciate your thoughtfulness and concern, and I’m sorry about the whole situation. If you do want to message me to ask more questions, I’ll be open to that. As a general thing, I prefer to stay out of this type of discourse (not pointed at you anon, just saying I’m not here for the whole tumblr-wide discussion, just to try and clear things up for you specifically<3)